The Daily Stoic - Tony Gonzalez on Becoming Your Best Self
Episode Date: July 23, 2022Ryan talks to former NFL football player about his transition from sports to broadcasting and acting, the path to becoming your best self, the process of becoming great at any skill, and more....Tony Gonzalez is regarded as one of the greatest tight ends of all time. He spent his first 12 seasons with the Kansas City Chiefs, who selected him in the first round of the 1997 NFL Draft. During his last five seasons, he was a member of the Atlanta Falcons. Since retiring in 2013, Gonzalez has served as an analyst for Fox Sports.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics,
something to help you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice,
temperance and wisdom. And then here on the weekend we take a deeper dive into
those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how
these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging
issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down,
be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,
and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.
Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars.
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I guess this would have been, yeah, this would have been the book tour for Stillness is the
key.
I was in Los Angeles and, you know, they just booked you on all this stuff.
And so, you know, they were like, you're doing this podcast with this guy named Tony and
it's in his house, West Side of LA,
so head over there.
And, you know, I was like, so, like, just doing,
like, the thing, the next thing in front of me,
that, this is my memory of it, right?
That my, I wasn't really aware exactly
where I was going or what I was doing,
but I pulled up to this insane house in Beverly Hills and I was super early.
And so I went for a long walk around the neighborhood.
I finally get back.
I go in the house and I'm doing the podcast at Tony Gonzalez's house.
Maybe the greatest tight end of all time.
Certainly one of the greatest NFL players of the last several decades.
He spent 12 seasons with the chiefs, five seasons
with the Falcons, Hall of Famer. He was an analyst for Fox. Now he's an analyst for Amazon.
But one of the greats of all time and all of a sudden we're sitting down and he had, I think
written one of my books and that we had this great conversation. It came out. It was a cool
experience and then I just went on to the next thing.
It's weird, you have these sort of moments in time,
and you don't think you could have no conception
of like what like the next thing is gonna be
where you're gonna re-bump into someone or whatever,
but I remember flash forward through a pandemic. I
open a bookstore, all this stuff. I get a text from the manager of the bookstore and she
says, this is really weird, but this guy named Tony Gonzalez is in the bookstore. And
he says he knows you. Can I give him a copy of the new book? This courage had just come in.
And I was like, are you kidding me? Of course.
Anyways, he had moved to Austin and we've gotten reconnected. He's come out to the bookstore
a couple of times. We love to eat at Basecamp, which is this awesome sandwich place right about
like half block from the bookstore. One of my favorite places to eat lunch. If you ever come out to the painting porch,
they're closed on Sunday Monday.
So you can only do it during the week,
but in Saturdays, but with love based camp,
he brought out his wife October one time,
and I would say we've become friends,
and it's been awesome.
And after him coming out and having a bunch of long
and very philosophical conversations
on the back porch of the painted porch, I said, tell me what you want to come back out and we could
do the podcast and talk about the same stuff and people could listen and he said,
absolutely, and I'm so glad he did. We had an awesome conversation. And I'm just, you know,
you're just sitting there. And again, I'm flashing back to our original meeting, but it's just like this dude was in 14 pro bulls six first team all pros
played in almost 300 NFL games. By the way, he only fumbled twice. Like try to wrap your head around the strength and training and skill it would take
your head around the strength and training and skill it would take to absorb the hits that this guy has taken and to never drop the ball. Tony will be the first to tell you that his NFL
career wasn't an easy road to the top. That's actually something we talked about. He wasn't one of
those guys that just clicked as soon as he got in the lead. He was a slow and steady climb,
but once he got there, I mean, he did not drop the ball literally and figuratively.
And that's what we talked about in today's episode. I think you're really going to like it.
You can follow him on Twitter and Instagram at Tony Gonzalez, 88. I really enjoyed this
conversation and you can watch a video of it on YouTube as well because we recorded it.
And I really appreciate it and Tony, I hope to see you at the painted porch
anytime you want to come out.
What do you think about the past when you said you think
that statue should come down?
Yeah.
And the reason I asked this, when I did find in your roots,
yeah, which will come out soon, I don't
care if it's on, he showed me a picture.
Obviously, I'm part black.
And if you're an American who's been here for a while, if you're black, obviously, probably
more likely, you had slaves.
You got slaves in your family.
So I had slaves in my family. And he showed me a picture of the slave owner,
of one of my grandfather who tried to escape
and the guy put out an ad saying,
hey, I lost my slave.
Have you seen him?
And that was my grandfather who escaped for a while.
From Georgia?
This was in Georgia.
Or North Carolina.
North Carolina, Georgia.
And so anyways, he goes, how does it feel
to look at that picture?
Yeah.
And I was talking to my wife about this last night
because in the moment, I said, I looked at it
and I said, okay, yeah, I'm pissed off, screw this guy.
Yeah, sure.
But also at the same time, I'm thinking this guy's just,
he's just ignorant.
Like it was just what everybody was doing back then.
It doesn't make an excuse, but everybody,
this is America people.
And for me to get, I'm not gonna give him the satisfaction,
it mad at him.
But I don't know, I just feel like if everybody was doing it,
it doesn't make it right, but this fool didn't know any better. And he was
probably taught that from his family. I'm sure his dad, and he would be lost if he didn't
have slaves. So maybe even if he did want to do something differently back then, it
would be financial suicide to not have slaves. And so I don't know, I look at these.
No, it's complicated. So I These questions. You can think about it.
I think you want to think about it.
There's a great quote from Keeetz.
And he says it sort of talks about negative capability.
The ability to have contradictory thoughts
in your head at the same time, right?
Like I think simple-minded people can only think of one thing.
Yeah.
Wisdom is the ability to sort of manage complexity
in your mind.
So first off, I think it is important to think back
and go, okay, like, what would it be like to be born
in a society where everyone owns slaves,
not just where everyone owns slaves,
but the entire culture was predicated,
not just on slavery, not being bad,
but slavery being a positive good,
that it was supported by the Bible,
that black people were inferior, that it was supported by the Bible, that black people were
inferior, that it was actually kind to do, you know, you go through all of it.
So of course, it would fuck with your mind.
And we should be humble enough to go if we were born in that society, it would have
worked our mind.
And it's not for certain that we would have bucked all of that to do the right thing.
So there's some sympathy. At the same time, and there's another question I like,
it's like, what would you do if you were born then? Instead of thinking about it historically,
you should just think about, well, what are you doing now? What are the choices you're making now?
And I think when you think about that way, it doesn't completely let you off the hook,
because what about all the people that are massively wrong about stuff in the world right now?
But like, it's pretty obvious what the right thing is, right?
And so you wouldn't give people in the present,
you wouldn't let them off the hook, right?
You'd be like, you have to avail yourself the information,
you have to make courageous choices,
you have to be empathetic.
So I think it's complicated.
As far as the statues go,
I've written about this a bunch, my view is,
if it was a statue put up in, let's say, a cemetery,
shortly after the war, in memory of people who died,
that would be one thing, right?
This statue was put up, for instance,
just I know a lot about this one.
It was put up in 1910, so it was put up
60 years, or now 50 years after the war. Why 60 years, or 50 years after the war.
Why was it put up 50 years after the war?
And I'll give you my history.
So my great-grandfather on my mother's side
was drafted by and fought for Germany
in the Second World War.
My dad's father landed in Normandy,
so it was on the right side of it,
but I have a Nazi in my past, right?
That was 70 years ago. But if today
I went to Germany and I was like, I don't think that Nazis were good, but I do want to
build a monument to my grandfather. You would be like, we are obviously just a Nazi sympathizer.
Why would you do that? Why would you put up a statue to a horrible cause, to someone that you didn't even meet,
50, 60, 70 years after.
It's because it's a form of propaganda
designed to intimidate and celebrate heinous ideas.
So when you actually study why these statues are up,
it's not immemorial of flawed people who died.
It was put up as part of the Jim Crow segregation,
not even cause, but part of a corrupt governmental system
designed to perpetuate that.
So you would think about, there were black people here
when they put up that statue, right?
Like who lived in this town of Bastrop?
But they had been illegally and unconstitutionally stripped of their right that statute, right? Like who lived in this town of Bastrop? But they had been illegally and unconstitutionally
stripped of their right to vote, right?
They had no say over the laws in this town.
They were persecuted and intimidated by the police,
by the clandet, et cetera, right?
So like, that statute is not this dated piece of history.
It was literally a representation of what you would call white supremacy, designed to, dated piece of history. It was literally a representation
of what you would call white supremacy,
designed to perpetuate said white supremacy.
So, I'm not saying you have to, you know,
you have to obliterate it into dust.
I'm just saying, you can't, people,
have you heard of the Rodney Reed case?
No.
The Rodney Reed case is like one of the big
deaf penalty cases in Texas
that like a lot of people think he's innocent.
It's complicated.
He's been on death row for a long time.
Anyways, the point is a black dude in this town was sent to death row in the courthouse
that he had to walk past said statue to be tried.
So my thinking on it and we're getting way afield, But is, what is the actual purpose of the statute,
what is the message it's sending?
And then why would we spend tax dollars today
to support it and protect it if that makes sense?
I agree.
I agree.
Yeah.
I agree.
The question, and I've had a little bit about this.
I forgot to bring it to the book, but it was really,
really good.
People that are for these statues, for family members, and they're saying,
well, it's not, obviously, I don't believe what they fought for,
but it's my great great grandpa,
and I want his statue up just to remember him.
You know, yada, yada, yada.
What do you say to those people?
I'm saying I would imagine imagine there's actually a great book
called How the Word Is Past.
You know, I'd imagine.
That's the book I read.
Yeah, that's the book I read.
Yeah, that's the one.
The word is past.
I think, I think, again, if I went,
if I was like, there needs to be a Nazi memorial
to people like my grandfather in Germany,
you'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Like, right?
So it's only because we have 150 plus years of what they call the
lost cause mythology that has laundered and lied and tried to cover up the true
heinousness of like the Civil War. I went and I spoke to this Monuments Commission
about the thing and I was like, this is literally a monument to the worst cause that has anyone has ever fought a
war over. Like this is the worst cause that anyone has ever fought a war over. We were like they
were like, hey right now the Constitution doesn't specifically protect slavery.
So we're gonna leave the United States
and start our own country,
explicitly founded on our right,
not just to own other people and exploit their labor,
but also rape them with impunity and kill them with them.
That's like the worst cause of all time.
So the idea that you're like,
oh, I just really care about the memory of my relative
that you've never met, right?
Strikes me as actually your, you've just interned.
I think people don't like to have the version
of the history they were taught as kids challenged.
This is what I think the debate over critical race theory
is largely about.
It's just like, I don't wanna have to change my mind. Yep.
Right?
And I think the mark of a smart person
is the ability to change your mind.
And so I think there's just a lot of just like,
I like things how they are.
Yeah.
And here you are making me uncomfortable
by demanding that I update those assumptions.
Yeah.
Right?
And that's hard.
I just learned about the trail of tears.
Oh yeah. and I guess
the cotton rich
soil that the United States gave the
American native tribes
One of them being the seminal native Americans and then they took it back because they said hey
That's great. We did the same thing with oil once they discovered oil. Once they discovered it, they're like,
okay, give it back to us, get your out of here.
And forcefully, we'll kill you if you don't get off.
But before they did that, on that soil,
the seminal Native Americans had slaves.
And they had obviously black slaves.
And so I think when you, if you're a student now,
and it's always the young ones that are saying,
man, this is ridiculous,
tear down those statues, tear down those statues,
are you gonna change the name of the Florida state football team now,
the seminals, or is that what they're called?
Do you start doing all these,
and that's part of, okay,
I don't want to have this conversation now.
Let's just move on and be happy now.
It looks like I've been moving for the Redskins for 40 years,
and now you're gonna call them something else.
Yeah, don't change in them.
Yeah.
Okay, but is that really that, like,
I think a people get really caught up in things
that don't matter, that you would adjust to really quickly.
I think at the core of it, people just don't like change. This is one of the things
that Stokes talk about that. Everything good has also come from a change, right? And so people just
don't like change. And they definitely don't like, they don't like change that would imply that the
way they were doing it before was wrong. So like, I'll give you an example. Like my parents do this, where it'll be like,
they're like, hey, you can't,
like, that's not a thing that we do with kids anymore.
I'm not even talking about violence,
it's like, hey, like, you can't give a kid X
or like, you can't say something like that,
like X to a kid.
Or like, I remember my mom was like,
oh, you can't put a kid in the front seat of a car,
you know, or whatever.
And it's like, hey, you haven't been able to do that
since I was a kid.
Why are you talking about, right?
And the reason they're sensitive to that
is because by saying this new way is better and safer.
It's implying that the old way was not safe
or came from some, you know what I mean?
And so people don't, but really like you were doing the best, and I think this goes to your point
of the ancestor a little bit, because I mean he definitely knew when he was holding your great
grandmother down and raping her against her will that she probably was not enjoying this, right?
If not in that instance, the vast majority of these encounters are definitely not happening
with consent, right?
So like, they knew, but at the same time, they were doing what everyone else was doing,
and then this is probably a little bit me too.
It's like, oh, but everyone used to make jokes like this.
Why am I being sent?
People don't like to change if the new change implies that the old way was unfair or mean or unethical or whatever.
So, but that is life. We should be getting better and the ways we used to do things should be like, wow, I can't believe we did things that way.
Yeah, yeah, and that's growth. But yeah, God, it's so hard for, like you said, for people to actually want to change,
to stretch themselves.
And people are lazy.
Yeah, I mean, I've seen it when I played football.
Guys are even at the professional level.
Nobody wants to stretch themselves.
Nobody wants to put in that extra time,
because it's uncomfortable.
It mentally and physically and spiritually.
Like a hardcore religious person.
Don't you dare.
I can present all the evidence to you that maybe what you're
thinking is not right.
And they're like, I don't care.
I'm going to continue to do it my way, because tradition.
And I've always done it this way.
And if I do change, like with your parents, if you say, hey, you shouldn't have your kid in the front seat, they're going always done it this way. And if I do change like with your parents,
if you say, hey, you shouldn't have your kid in the front seat.
They're gonna, like my mom, and I tell her things,
and she's like, no, well, look at you.
You turned out fine, look at you.
And what do you, like, you down inside there saying,
well, you're calling me a bad parent now.
Yeah, it's not counting.
I'm not calling you bad, you just didn't know.
We didn't have the data then, right?
Like, we didn't have the data,
or we didn't have the technology to do a better like we didn't have the data or we didn't have the technology
to do a better alternative.
So it's not an indictment of you,
it's just we have better information now.
And Paul Graham has this great essay
about how like the more things you identify with,
the stupider you are.
He doesn't mean like you're a dumb person.
He means like when you identify with something,
it makes it harder for you to change.
So if you identify as, like I identify as a southerner
whose comes from a long, proud Confederate tradition,
and then I'm like, look, Robert Ealy was a piece of shit.
You know, look at this, look at this, look at this.
You can't accept that information because it challenges your sense of you as a human being.
And this is something I actually wanted to talk to you about.
Think about this.
We have someone identifies as an NFL player or as an all star or a pro-bola or a famous
person.
As you identify with these things that are part of your job
that have an expiration date on them, it makes it impossible for you not just to handle the inevitable
decline that we all skills would go through, but then what about when you when that does come to an end?
Right? Like now you're not that person anymore, but you can't change or adapt because you've identified with it,
and then this feels like a form of death,
when really it's just a transition into something new.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, are you asking me like,
how did I deal with that?
Yeah. I think, I think,
you know, as you were talking,
and we're talking about race
was the first time it's ever done to me.
And I, because honestly, it wasn't that hard for me.
Interesting.
And the reason I think it wasn't that hard for me
is because,
me and I'm just thinking out loud here.
So maybe this is, I haven't thought this fully out,
but I'm gonna say it the best I can.
I am multiracial, okay, part growing up.
This is what I thought.
I thought I was, I didn't know what the hell I was, honestly.
And I still get this question.
Everywhere I go, the first question people ask me
if they don't, if they don't know who I am.
Like if I'm traveling overseas,
well, they do, they say, are you a football player,
American football player, or are they say,
and then they go, where are you from?
Who are you?
What are you? And you look at me and I get it. I look at them say, and then they go, where are you from? Who are you? What are you?
And you look at me and I get it.
I look at them every day and I'm going,
who do I identify with?
And so I grew up thinking that I knew I was part black.
I knew I was part Latino.
My last name is Gonzales.
My grandfather was from Argentina,
or so he said he was.
And then obviously a little bit of white.
And so I grew up with that, and that's extremely hard.
It really, really is.
In any biracial person listening,
knows what I'm talking about,
because everywhere you go, you're an outsider, right?
You don't, then you were talking about,
I'm a southerner, and this is me.
I didn't have that opportunity.
I've never identified with anything.
Excuse me.
I've never identified with anything
because I wasn't allowed to identify with anything.
If I would go to a black neighborhood,
they would call me White Boy.
If I would go to a white neighborhood,
I'd been called Nigger.
I'd go if I was around other white neighborhood, I've been called Nigger.
I'd go if I was around other white neighborhood, they'd call me Beener, which is a derogatory nation
for Mexicans, and I'm not Mex, or Wetback,
whatever, I've been called that a bunch.
I've been called all these racial slurs,
not in a fun way either, like that was a derogatory,
like they were calling me out, trying to hurt my feelings.
And so I've always felt like I haven't identified
and I'm wondering if that's why I'm never cling to anything.
I'm not a fan of anything.
I've never been a fanatic with music, with sports,
even growing up as a kid.
I didn't, it wasn't like, oh, that's my team
or that's my guy.
Like it was always a bunch of different,
and that's why I said I've's my guy. Like, it was always a bunch of different,
and that's why I said, I've got to put it all together
right now that maybe that's because I've never really
identified with anything.
I've identified with all of it, but it's never been mine.
Well, so it's like you're sort of figuratively a free agent.
You just sort of go with what you want to go with
or what you feel an affinity towards at a moment,
as opposed to like, this is who I am, this is unchanging, and as a result, if someone attacks me for that or undermines
that or it changes, like in the case of football going away, you're not feeling some sort of
like loss or grievance.
No, and I get to be honest at it.
To me, there's freedom in that.
I mean, of course, some people aren't going to like that because people want you to pick
aside. Yeah. They want you to be on their team.
Uh, what do you think? There's also one things to be simple and obvious, right? The idea
that like, I'm a bunch of things. People are like, I don't have time for this. Like, I
want to put you in one box. Yes. So to make it simple for me, it's comfortable for
me to put you in a box. I remember Tiger Woods came out and said, he's blazing or whatever
it was. And bad, like the black community win nuts.
Maybe the Asian community win nuts.
Like people win nuts, they're like,
no, you are black.
It's all there is to it.
And I guess he is black, but why can't you be,
a little bit, you can identify with everything.
I don't know, especially in America.
Come on.
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I remember when I wrote this book about Peter Tio
and the sort of inciting incident for him
and conspiracy was that this website outed him as gay.
And he was like upset about that.
And so people said, well, is it because you're ashamed of being gay? Like obviously, they're like, we're not saying it's bad. Why are you
upset that we said that you're gay? And I think they're being a little disingenuous because
the tone of the article that added him was like very sort of sneering and sort of condescending.
But his point was like, that's just not the thing I want to be known for. He's like, I want to be known as like an investor
or an entrepreneur.
I don't want to be a gay entrepreneur.
In the same way that like women,
they're like, don't call me an actress or a waitress.
Like, I'm not the female version of that thing.
I just am the thing.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
You know what? I don't, I don't give a shit.
What do you think of me?
Honestly, for the most part,
you can put me in whatever box you want.
Yeah.
I'm gonna be okay.
And because I have my inner circle,
I have my wife, I have my children,
and I have my, you know, my,
my couple of close really good friends.
And I care about what they think.
For most people out there,
I want to be the
best I can for you. I'm trying for that. It's important to me, but I'm not connected
to that. I don't need it, but I want it. I want you to approve of me, but I don't need
you to approve me. And I'm working my ass off to perform for you on the football field,
or like you talk about the transition to broadcasting or
acting, which is what I'm doing now.
Like I'm trying, and I'm going to work my ass off to do the best I can to present the
best product or best performance I can.
And I want you to like it, but if you don't, then I just not I can do it, because it's
out of my control.
I guess that's...
That's the definition.
That's the definition.
Yeah, is this thing up to me?
And yeah, one of my favorite quotes from Mark is to realize
he's basically saying like, look, like ambition
is like tying what you say and think and do
to like what other people say and think, right?
Like I want to be selected to the pro-bull
or I want to be given a scholarship
or I want to be, you know, inducted to the Hall of Fame,
or I want to be, I want the Critics Choice Award or Best Sellerless, right? Those things.
But it says, sanity is tying it to your own actions. So like, you have to, in a way, you have to come,
it's not that the external scorecard is not important because of course it is. If you don't catch the ball,
if you don't get enough yards, like, you don't get, or you don't get the same size contract that you might.
Like if my books don't sell, people stop asking me to write books,
or they stop paying me to do books.
But if that's your success, well, what if you do something
that's like ahead of its time, or what if you do something
that people don't appreciate or don't expect,
or what if you're doing it for a different set of motivations,
then you're not going to get that thing that you're, now you've, you've
essentially said success is up to my success is somebody else's decision, which is not
a good place to live and not a good place to do good work from. I think you have to cultivate
like your own metric of success. So I try to be in a place where the book is a success
on day one, like before it comes out, or say day zero,
let's say, or day negative one,
and then everything else is extra.
Like I know the process was enjoyable.
I know it was creatively fulfilling.
I know objectively I did something that I wanted to do, and then if it sells
a thousand copies or a million copies, which isn't fully in my control, that is only extra
or no more than I already have.
Do you still have your feelings get hurt?
Sure.
I mean, so conspiracy.
I think is my best book.
It's probably sold the least
well of all the books. It's still a success. If any other author published it and it's
sold out, I'm going to copy it. It's so nice. You did a good job. But you can make a living,
but it didn't do what I wanted it to do., its success is not, let's say its sales figures
are not commensurate with like my judgment of it.
But like in a sense, I was glad that that happened
because it helped decouple the two from each other.
So now I know I can do my best work
and it might not be my most commercially successful work.
Conversely, I did this book, Growth Hacking
several years ago that my publisher suggested,
and I was into it and I liked, I'm glad I did it,
but it sold very well and then looked at it,
but like, when I'm looking back on my life,
I'm not like, oh, that was so meaningful to me.
So it helped me couple commercial success
and creative fulfillment slash like challenge of it.
And so now I try not to think about that.
Uh-huh.
I also, it sounds like an artist who,
a musician playing the hits, playing the music.
Like, okay, this song that we were kind of into,
all of a sudden is like the most pop is long in the world,
but the stuff I really, really want to make
is not really, you know, received well.
And so what do you do then?
Like, that's the part.
When I think ideally, there should be a track for both.
I mean, there should be a track for both.
Like, some, yeah, sort of, what do they call it?
Like, one for me, one for them.
You know what I mean?
You just kind of think about that way.
I mean, ideally, you want both.
Ideally, you want it to be very creatively fulfilling and commercially successful. Like, why would you make
something that you didn't want to be reached to people, a lot of people? But I think you have to, you
have to ultimately ask yourself, like, who is in charge? Like this audience, this mob that I'll never meet, also random luck, or like
an eye in charge. Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you something, because I'm about to start like the
next book in this series that I'm doing, and I wondered if you might have some insight or
relate to it. Like, when you, so, so it's season ends, and then you're, you get a couple months
off or whatever, and then you're starting to gear up for the next season.
What was your feeling about that?
Were you excited for a new season to start or was there sort of a dread for you that
you knew it was going to be very hard and it would be grueling?
Once again, like you said, I forgot who you said that, but you could have both feelings.
Yeah, it's kind of like better sweet.
Yeah.
It's, you know what's common?
You know what you just went through?
The strain it put on your body, mentally, physically,
spiritually, your family.
It's very, very stressful.
Football, people I was asked me, they're like,
man, do you miss it?
And I'm like, hell no.
Right.
But then part of me goes, hell yeah. Yeah.
Both.
I mean, it's like graduating in high school.
Yeah, you're gonna miss it, but you, I don't miss getting my ass kicked.
The fight, the monotony of going every single day and become so boring.
It's a grind, right?
It's a such a tremendous grind.
And football, people, I played basketball too, and I had an opportunity to maybe go pro basketball.
And certainly my career wouldn't have been,
it wouldn't have been as good
as I was, just from a physical standpoint.
But to me, it's the best decision I've made.
Obviously, to go play football, because football,
but football is a fight.
Yeah.
Basketball is better than football
from a physicality standpoint.
Football, especially back when I played,
it's a constant fist fight.
Every single day, imagine going to the,
it's like boxing, I guess.
Like it's not fun.
It's not fun.
The games are fun, but it's not fun.
And so, when you're going to your offices
and you remember all the good,
obviously you try to focus on the good.
That's the way I did it.
I remember the good times, the positive stuff that I did.
And then you take some time off
where I didn't do anything for that first month.
And then slowly but surely I'd start getting back into it.
I wouldn't even touch a football.
That was the beauty of basketball for me.
Basketball was my saving grace
because I would just go play basketball,
because I really, really enjoy it.
So you could stay in shape,
stay in shape, and I played every single day,
and I played competitive.
I played, shoot, I even tried out for the Miami Heat
one off season, but I'd play in the summer pro leagues
out there with Magic Johnson, a lot of,
bow outlaw, I remember Antoine Jameson,
like Anton Walker, Paul Pierce,
like all these pro leagues, I was in them.
I'm doing well for it.
But that would be a way for me to take my mind off of football.
And then once the summer came, I started gearing up into it.
And you started slowly but surely getting my mind wrapped
around what I want to do, set some new goals,
keep building off of what I did before.
You're never satisfied.
I think that's how you become truly, truly great.
I never rested and said, oh my God,
I was first team all pro last year.
It's like, no, I gotta get even better.
I had a thousand yards.
I need 1200 yards of shit.
I need to keep pushing myself.
That's pretty much how it went for me every single year.
Yeah, there's an expression of painters like painting,
writers like having written.
And so it's like, I imagine having played football
is probably more fun in some ways
than the actual game of playing football.
Because like, I mean, you're getting hit
by people running at full speed
and people who are trying to hurt you.
Like, so it's this balance of like,
obviously you love doing it
or you wouldn't compulsively do it.
But at the same time, it takes a toll on you.
Yeah, it does take a toll. Like I said, physically, mentally, spiritually. And you go through the
ups and downs. I've 17 years, man, I've had my share of depression. I've had my share of
bad moments. Maybe I didn't handle it like how I wanted it, wanted to. to drink in, the part in, you know, you fame, all that stuff goes into your career.
And it should.
I mean, that's life.
That's how it's shaped.
But for me, what I struggled with most
and into that transition to,
was, and it even still to this day.
Like, I have a little bit of that imposter syndrome.
Oh yeah. Like, I don't ever really, it takes have a little bit of that imposter syndrome. Oh yeah.
Like I don't ever really,
it takes me a while to feel totally, totally confident.
And that's what took me so long
to become really good in the NFL.
I didn't get any faster or stronger
between my rookie year and my third year
when I was first in my pro.
Those first two years were shitty for me.
And it was, and the only reason it was,
is because I wasn't confident.
And that's what's kind of plagued me throughout my,
I don't even know if it's a plague,
maybe it's a good thing.
I'm starting to read that A and posture
said it was actually a good thing.
Yeah.
And maybe it is, but I can't shake it sometimes.
I just don't feel so confident when I'm doing certain things.
I mean, there's a story about Marcus to realize
that he's sort of chosen to be king.
And he like, he's supposedly, this is a young man,
but he sort of breaks down in tears
because he's like, literally all kings have been bad.
There's like no examples of like good ones.
They're all, they all break bad.
They end up being terrible, tyrants like addicted
to pleasure, et cetera.
And he's sort of wondering whether you can do it.
And then he has his dream later
that he has shoulders made of ivory,
that he is sort of strong enough to do it.
But I was wondering that about your career because yeah, you have a sort of a slow start.
But I wonder, do you think you could have played
as long as you played if you'd come out of the gate stronger?
Whew, I don't, obviously I don't know,
but it's the best thing
never happened to me.
You're right.
If I would have came out and played,
I would have never went through that dark, dark time
in my career where I doubted myself so much.
I'm talking, I got benched.
I got written up in the papers, telling me I was a bust.
Like, that stuff hurts.
And I still hold onto that.
I mean, that's a chip I'll have for the rest of my life
of being so embarrassed and feeling so much shame
and guilt and all that stuff.
I mean, it was all of it rolled up into one.
But I think when you go through those situations,
and I mean, I read a lot and I read a lot of biographies
and it seems like a lot of the people
that have achieved greatness go through those
really extremely dark times.
Like there's nothing wrong with going through
those extremely dark times as long as you eventually
figure it out.
Yeah, Churchill says that every prophet
has to go through the wilderness
and then from the wilderness, this is where they produce
psychic dynamite. The idea being that you have to go through this experience where they produce psychic dynamite.
The idea being that you have to go through this experience where you're sort of sent away,
it's kind of the hero's journey, where you're sent away, you're doubted, you struggle,
and then if you come out of the other side of that, you're much stronger.
I remember I was talking to John Snyder once, the GM of the Seahawks, and he was saying
like, they have trouble when they drafts players who have never been through anything before,
because like almost everyone goes through some version of that dip when you start, because
you're like the best in college, and then you're like, oh shit, like the NFL is another
level, the NFL is another level. The NFL is another level. And if you've never had to adjust
to not getting everything you want
and struggling and having to learn and grow,
like it's gonna kick your ass.
Yeah, well, I had that when I was younger.
I guess kind of had a bully.
Oh, people can look up that story.
But I had a bully long story short.
I had a bully.
I played Pop Warner football. I was the worst kid on the team,
had this bully come down trying to beat me up
and I changed everything and it helped me become
a better football player.
Yeah.
But then after that, once I figured that out,
a football, oh man, I just, I was the man
until I was the first round drive choice.
I was that guy that you probably wouldn't like.
But I bet in that experience as you were adjusting,
even though you're still struggling,
you were drawing on the strength that you drew on.
Like if you hadn't gone through what you went through
as a kid, maybe you wouldn't have made it
out of the other side of those three years.
And you're right, and maybe I wouldn't of,
but I still did not know the formula for success
when I became a professional.
Sure.
Now before that talent wise, I'm 65,
I can jump really high, I'm strong, I'm quick,
I'm athletic, this is just,
and I didn't ask for this, this was just given to me
from birth genetically.
And so I relied on that a lot.
Now I worked hard, don't get me wrong,
I worked my ass off, but I did,
my working my ass off was what they told me to do.
So if practice started at one, I showed up at one,
and I worked my ASSOF for those two hours
until three o'clock, three, 30, whatever it is,
and went home.
I did exactly what they asked me to do.
And this is what I tell incoming rookies now in the NFL.
I say welcome to the world of your no longer special.
No one gives a shit.
You ran up four, three, so does he, so does he, so does he.
Oh, you bench four and a pound.
So does he.
Oh, your first team, all American.
Good, good for you.
You won the Heisman.
It's that guy over there, he won the Heisman.
He doesn't even start.
Yeah.
Okay, nobody cares who you are and what you've been through
anymore, what's gonna separate you at the professional level.
This is, I don't care what it is.
It's the obsession. Yeah. It's the, for me, I don't care what it is. It's the obsession.
Yeah.
It's the, for me, I had to figure out,
I had to go out, I can't show up at one o'clock
and be done at 3.30 after practice.
I have to show up earlier, 30 minutes before everybody gets out
there and I need to catch balls.
Yeah.
And while the defense is going, I need to catch balls.
While when coach calls us up afterwards and everybody goes home
to go play video games and go talk to the sweetie pies,
I'm gonna stay after and I'm gonna catch more balls
with my chin strap buckled, mouthpiece in, eyes wide open,
focused in the game situation, getting ready,
obsessed with being the best.
And when I go home, I don't turn it off.
I can be watching a basketball game or a football game
that I'm always thinking about, okay,
how am I gonna get better? Yeah, I make the joke like I would be watching a basketball game or a football game like that. And I'm always thinking about, okay, how am I going to get better?
Yeah.
I make the joke, like, I would be walking down a hallway in my house.
And I still do this to this day.
I'll fake left and go right around the corner.
Sure, sure.
To go get some out of the refrigerator.
Yeah.
Because it's just, I was so obsessed and so programmed with that.
And that's one of the things, you talk about that transition.
I forgot,
that's what made me so great at football,
and I think a lot of players forget
about what made them so great when they played,
and that's why you look at the statistics,
when players get done playing,
any professional sport,
it's a huge falloff, I mean, depression, financial troubles, divorce, addiction,
all that stuff that happens.
And I think it's because they expect to be great
again right away at whatever it is they choose.
Not for sure.
But you started at zero.
Right, not really.
Let's think.
That you gotta go through all that embarrassment again,
all that boring work again, all that stuff that made you
great before, you forget.
And I forgot.
I forgot.
I thought, okay, well, I'll study for an hour and get ready for this broadcast, and I'll
be great.
And it's like, no, it's not going to be good.
Well, that's, that's, you go right, the idea that like you have like the mightest touch.
Right.
Because you were good here.
Like, think about an investor.
You make some great investment.
You pick some company, it sells for a lot.
Now just like the next thing that you're like,
oh, that could be good.
That doesn't, you have to, everything,
there's a rule in writing that your last book
doesn't write your next one,
you're always starting zero.
And I think that's why this one is intimidating to me.
And I think it's good that it's intimidating to me
because the second you think that you're entitled to it
or that it just happens, That's when you fall off.
Right? I mean, obviously you learn some tricks of the trade and it becomes easier in some respects.
But if the second it loses its ability to scare you a little bit, you're probably coasting and
somebody's going to get you. I agree. And I like that. But another thing that I learned
through that second year going into my third year,
where I went from being benched twice
to being first team all pro six months later,
whatever in the next season.
Also putting in that extra work,
but then also, I got to the point too,
that I was so depressed and feeling so bad about myself,
that I finally said, I don't give a shit anymore.
You're too self-conscious about it.
I don't care.
I don't care whether you like what I'm doing or not.
My teammates, I didn't care anymore,
whether you liked me or not, I'm gonna do my thing.
Yeah.
And I'm out there, maybe it's a little bit of selfish too.
I was like, I'm going out there
and I'm just gonna play my game.
I'm gonna do what I wanna, what feels natural I'm going to be totally proud. I'm not thinking
about when I run this 12 yard corner in the end zone, I'm not thinking about the touchdown.
I'm just totally focused now being as free as I possibly can. It's the same thing in acting.
That's why I think I'm drawn to acting and broadcasting, live television and acting.
You can't be thinking about the end and you can't be thinking about what just happened
You have to be totally in the moment and free. Yeah, and all the way you're gonna be free is if you don't give a shit
No, I think that's totally right and I think
That's how I try to remind myself as I'm like intimidated by projects or whatever is like don't think about
I'm not trying this this thing. I'm, because I'm starting like two weeks. I'm starting two weeks. I can't take the end state of the book I am publishing that,
like the last book, and compare it to where I am here. I'm starting totally fresh in both,
in all senses of the work, right? And then I just have to be present and just do what I have to do
like right now. So I just think, what's a small, like I just think about,
what's the contribution that I have today?
What's the deposit that I have to make today?
And I know if I do that and I don't quit,
and I bring to it every day the level of commitment
and intensity, et cetera, required,
eventually I'll get there.
It could take a year, it could take five years,
it could take 20, you know,
you don't know how long it's gonna take,
but if you're like, I'm not gonna quit till I finish this,
I'm gonna put, you'll get there.
Yeah, so that's small steps, small steps,
or one percent growth per day,
like all the stuff that people talk about,
that's in all great wisdom,
religion, people, great people,
they all say the same thing.
That's the point, all of it is the same thing. That's the point.
All of it is the same thing.
Yes.
Rapt in different boxes.
Yeah, of course.
Well, I mean, yeah, think about it.
You're some like Buddhist monk or you're a stoic philosopher or you're a football coach trying
to teach some young players who's struggling.
The situations are the same.
I mean, they're still people and they're intimidated by this big thing and they're like, what if you just focus
on this little part of it and you just do,
the process is the process,
whether you're coming out of from a spiritual tradition,
a philosophical tradition, a performance like coaching,
you know, it's not like any of the variables are changing
just because it's different names or races
or time periods in history.
It's like people have been trying to solve tough problems
or get to elite performance for thousands of years
and like they're like, you gotta be present,
don't get distracted by the end result
and like, you gotta do your best.
Like, they're cliches for a reason.
Yeah, yeah, and a word, as I watch you speak,
and I think when you watch the greats,
when you see the Jordan, the Tom Brady,
the great politicians, great actors,
you see a certain level of calmness too.
Yeah.
Of course.
That kind of changed everything for me.
The way I put the word on it,
on everything we talk about,
your focus, your present,
to me being present is being extremely calm.
Yes.
Not letting your emotions,
it's Bill Belichack right there.
That's why I think he's the best coach in all sports.
Yeah.
Because of his ability to stay calm,
no matter what, big win.
He'll smile a little bit and get happy,
but a big loss, hey, we got our butts kicked.
It's almost the same.
You look at his press conferences where they lose.
It's the same.
And a lot of people probably don't like that.
And you look at someone like an emotional coach,
there was a guy named Rex Ryan, who's a hell of a coach,
but very up and down emotional,
and then you get a team like that,
and you get your family like that,
whether you're the head of the household,
like it's important with your kids, with your wife,
with your family, with your business,
with whatever it is, just stay that level calm.
Like an even keel.
And that helps, I think that helps creativity.
I think that helps you assert your confidence.
It helps, everything begins, at least for me.
It begins with that level of calm.
Yeah, I mean my word for that is stillness and the idea is that when I think about all the best
moments of my life, whether it's like performance, whether it's like happiness, like whether it's like
beauty, all the like when I'm like, this was awesome. I wasn't like at 11, I was at like five.
You know what I mean?
You'd calm things down, you weren't doing like 20 things
at the same time, you were present, you were focused,
you were still.
And I think the tension though is like to be great
at whatever it is you do, You also have to have an intensity,
that you have to really want it,
and you have to be aggressive and ambitious
and invested.
So I think when people are like,
oh, does that mean you don't care?
No, it's that you care, the default is you care a ton,
and then you have to figure out how to ratchet that down
because that intensity
will make you not as good as you could, you make emotional decisions, you'll take things
too seriously, except like obviously Bill Belgium loves football and he's intensely driven
to win. So he has to work that calmness has to sit on top of that intensity.
I think if you had a filter, like everything you talked about, all the intensity, the
putting the hours in the presence, everything and then at that last stage before you go
out on the before you go out on the stage or the field or the arena or the conference room
or with your family. The last thing to remember is calmness, stillness.
Yes, yes. Of all the books, I've read a majority of your books,
stillness is the one that touched,
that for me the most, because I was, you know,
I think that was part of my problem
those first two years in a league.
I was trying so hard and trying to force it
and trying to, when you stay calm,
you don't, and you have a nice routine, and you're calm,
you don't have to go find success.
Success will come find you.
It will land right on top of you.
I guess in acting, they call it one of the metaphors,
I think it's like trying to catch a feather.
It's like if you go chase it, it'll go away from you.
But if you just sit there still and let it come,
it'll come to you. And you have to trust, it'll go away from you. But if you just sit there still and let it come, it'll come to you.
And you have to trust.
That takes a lot of trust.
And that's where the training comes in.
Sure.
You're always good at your training.
Yeah.
I think that's been the biggest get for me.
And I keep getting it.
That keeps coming up in my life.
That confidence, stillness and confidence.
And you can mix those two along with the work
and the intensity and all that stuff.
That's when great things will happen. Well, that's why I think ego is so dangerous because I would say ego is not calm and not
confident.
Yes.
Right?
Ego is this like, people think it looks like confidence and maybe it looks like confidence
on the outside, but inside, it's like buzzing.
It's like fundamentally insecure, it's sensitive to slights.
You know, it feels like it has to prove all these things.
It has this grandiosity, this sense of oversized sense of your own importance.
So, to me, the egotistical person, it seems like they're having a good time, but they're the one
that actually, it's like a duck, it's like sitting on the water, it looks calm, but it's like
fucking furiously paddling. That's what ego is to me. And so, you push that ego away and you actually
get to a place of calmness and confidence
because you're like, I've done the work.
And I also know that I've done the work and also I know that if I don't calm down and
get control of myself, I won't be able to access or use the training and the skills that
I have as effectively. Yeah, I have my 12 year old name, River, and he is an intense dude.
Quick to anger, quick to shout and yell.
And this is something that I stress with him and to see how he's evolved his game.
It's like taking off now because he's just being more relaxed.
I'm like, you have to, you have to buy into that stillness.
You have to, otherwise,
it's, you're in for a chaotic life,
an up and down life,
I don't like that emotions on my sleeve type.
Yes, leader.
No, it's like emotions,
it's not that you, I think people have this understanding
of the Stokes as being emotionless.
I think it's that they try to do away
with destructive emotions.
Where they try not to make decisions
based on their emotions, right?
It's like being angry about something
is not the same as doing something out of anger
or having an insecurity and then projecting that
insecurity out in the world. That's not going to be helpful, right? And so you
want to cultivate the ability to detach from your emotions a little bit and
then be like, well, what is actually the best thing to do here? It might be to do
what your anger is telling you to do, but to do it out of anger is probably not the best way to do it.
Yeah, out of it, I remember, I was at Cal, Berkeley,
went with my football, and one of our defensive players
came in at halftime, and this dude was yelling and screaming
and going nuts, nuts, he was like, I'm going nuts so bad,
like he was just angry, and he's like, we're going out there, we're going to kick nuts. He's like, I'm one, it's so bad. Like it was just angry.
And he's like, we're going out there.
We're going to kick their ass, sucking half.
And he went out there and played the worst half of it.
Of course.
And it's like, blinding.
That was one of the first times I go, I like,
I know, unknowingly notice.
I'm like, dude, he's calm down.
Like you can't, you can't, you can't play that way.
You can't operate that way.
Think about why do players talk trash, right?
It's to make the other player angry.
Yeah.
And then you know they're not going to be as good, right?
And then we do that to ourselves all the time, right?
Like we know that anger and other people distracts them,
pisses them off, overwhelms them,
gets them into trouble, and then we're like,
but with me, my anger is a good,
is good fuel. And it's like, no, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. Just look at the
grades. Yeah. Just look at them. Look at Tiger. Look, look at, look at Tom. I mean, these
people you don't have to say their last name. That's because they, they are, they show that
like Michael and they're just so calm and so graceful. They might be not calm or controlled
in other parts of their life
and it causes lots of problems for them.
But in the thing where it matters the most,
they're very calm.
Which, that's a whole different subject.
How do you let off that steam too?
Yes, you gotta have outlets for it.
What's the, how do you get rid of that dark side?
Well, so I was curious about you then.
So you leave football, you go into broadcasting
and now you're doing acting.
Has your, I've got to imagine there's some athletes
that are like, well, I'll be good at this too.
But did you go into those things as being like,
no, I'm starting from zero again,
and I got to figure out this craft? No, no, I mean, no, because I didn't know what to expect.
The broadcasting was a little bit easier just because it's the game of football.
So I know football and I've had a microphone in front of my face my whole career.
So I knew I could be okay at it. And I put good work into it.
I didn't put great work into it.
So that was a little, but it was a little bit easier.
I'm sure.
And it's not easy for all.
I mean, you see a lot of these big names that try it
and it just doesn't work for them.
Acting was, it's a whole different animal.
I mean, that's, that, because that's totally
outside of what I did.
And so I thought that, okay,
just because I've done a couple sitcom guest stars
and I've done a couple of these movies,
and I had a couple of lines here and there,
that, okay, I'm great, I could be great at this.
Yeah.
And then, you know, I got, I got my ass kicked.
I got, I got embarrassed.
I got really embarrassed.
And you have, but I've been looking back,
it's like I had to go through that.
And then you start to remember, okay, well,
shoot, I can't just study this part for 30 minutes an hour.
This isn't, you know, a football broadcasting, you know?
I got to like throw everything I have into it
and be willing to go through the fire again,
be willing to go through the embarrassment, the the boring all that stuff that comes with being great
and then I finally figured it out and I'm not and by the way when I say figured it out
I figured out the formula your eye path. I'm on that path. You'll never figure it out
I mean you shouldn't you'll never ever arrive. It's just you want to keep keep keep getting better
but also I imagine there's an epic teedisk what I like he says like if you want to improve getting better. But also I imagine there's an epictetus quote I like,
he says like, if you want to improve
or get good at something, you have to be willing
to be seen as foolish or ignorant.
And so I imagine acting is hard one
because it's a stereotype,
but the jock doesn't also do theater, right?
So I imagine there's the challenge
of just the emotional vulnerability and the different
parts of you that acting is accessing.
But then, and so you have to have a certain amount of courage and self-control to do that
and be willing to be seen as something different or act in a way that maybe people don't expect
from you, but then also the willingness to go from world class
at one thing to not world class at the other thing
and not be like, fuck this, I quit.
That must be the hardest part.
It's the hardest part because the chances are
that you're gonna make it in act or any
like really great professional thing
and job that you want to do.
I mean, it's slim.
And we all know that though, too.
And that's why I think we quit sometimes.
It's like, man, I put everything I had into it
and it still didn't work.
So I might as well quit and do something else.
And I got to the point like that with acting.
And fact, I almost did.
I gave up.
I remember I was trying and trying.
I started, but I went to all the classes.
I was doing two classes a week. I was really throwing myself, I started, and I went to all the classes, I was doing two classes a week,
I was really throwing myself into it,
and then I was doing all these auditions
and getting nothing, nothing.
Right, getting, to go from being everything that's inbound,
hey Tony, what are you doing this?
Hey Tony, what are you doing this?
We want this endorsement, you know, blah, blah,
to then having to go like, being rejected for stuff.
That would be a challenge.
Yeah, and you get, and that's acting now. I mean, you have to understand. Where'd you see even putting yourself out there? I want this, and you give me, and that's acting now.
I mean, you have to understand.
Where'd you see even putting yourself out there?
I want this and they're like,
now you're not right.
No.
That's not fun.
And that's the thing about acting too.
You walk into a room, they've already made up their mind
sometimes.
They're like, no, no.
And then somewhat being, somewhat recognizable,
where people just want to come meet you or something.
Yeah.
They're like, hey, come here, hey. Yeah, I loved you, man.
Yeah.
And then we've already decided, but we just wanted to see you.
Anyway, see you.
We could do it.
But, you know, it's been great.
And now I've been able to get some momentum.
I got a couple, you know, I did a couple movies.
I got a couple shows now.
And you start to, you just, it's all part of it.
Yeah.
I mean, you have to fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail,
and then you finally will crack one a little bit open.
You're like, okay, I can do this.
And then you start building off of that.
And you have to remember, like I told you, confidence
was a problem for me.
And I used to teach my kids this, and I think I was wrong.
I used to tell them after games,
because maybe this is what I did. But I didn't do it, but I thought I was wrong. I used to tell them after games, because maybe this is what I did.
I'd be like, but I didn't do it,
but I thought I was doing this,
where I was like, hey, you remember,
like my son would play a basketball game,
or my son would play football,
and he'd have like six or seven tackles in the game,
but I'd be like, hey, you missed three tackles.
Go home and think about those missed tackles.
That's what you need to focus on.
And to me, I thought that was right,
but that's, I did focus on the things
that where I got it wrong.
But for the most part, I was focusing on
where I got it right.
That's what I replayed over and over in my head.
And I was building off of that.
And now I tell my kids, like, yeah,
you had a couple turnovers, whatever,
in the basketball game, but man,
those that step back jumper, remember that.
Remember you did that and keep building off of that.
That's what you think about before you go to sleep tonight.
And first of all, it makes it more fun for you.
Sure.
You know, keep your confidence up.
It'll keep you coming back for more
because if you keep this negative way of thinking,
and there's books written on the power of negative thinking
or whatever, like, you, that'll kill you in the long run.
That'll make it not fun.
Yes.
And it doesn't build confidence, right?
Like if you're focusing on what you did wrong,
in some sense, it does potentially allow you
to solve for that thing.
Like if all you focus on is what you did right,
then you're never gonna fix your mistakes.
But if all you focus on is what you did wrong,
you're also not going to develop any confidence, you're not going to develop any enthusiasm or
pleasant memories with the thing. And yeah, it's a tension that you have to do both. Again,
to go to a overtime. You have to be able to see what you did wrong, but also not let that
so consume you that you don't see that you did wrong, but also not let that so consume you
that you don't see that you did most of what you needed to do right.
Absolutely.
I want to ask you, what is your thoughts on a balance in life?
What about balance, family balance?
Yeah, I mean, I think about it in terms of sustainability.
And so like, did let's say drugs influence or make
Jimmy Hendrix or Kurt Cobain or whomever's music better.
Maybe, but it also killed them, so it's not good fuel.
So I think about, let's say, a lot of people think
that having kids, for instance, it makes it hard
to continue to write. And that like having kids for instance, it makes it hard to continue
to write.
And this is definitely true for women, especially historically, because like, you know,
having kids takes so much time, and they didn't have time to write, or the freedom to write,
or make changes, or whatever.
So it definitely takes something out of you in the short term, I think.
But if it opens you up emotionally,
if it balances you out, if it gives you,
we're talking about it, outlet,
or some sort of other thing that you're,
I think my interest is not to write like a couple good books
and then like take the money and retire.
I want to get really good at this over a long period of time,
right? One of the benefits of acting or writing versus football they want to get really good at this over a long period of time.
Like one of the benefits of acting or writing versus football is like,
Tom Brees, like the longest ever do it.
And it's not really that long, right?
Like it's like, can you believe he's still doing it
in his early 40s, right?
Like people published great books when they're 80,
you know what I mean?
So like I think about it over a long horizon.
And so when I think about family and life and balance
and pacing myself, et cetera, I'm thinking about that.
Like, is this...
I'm hoping it's contributing to me being able to do it sustainably
and at a high level of excellence over a long period of time.
And also, like, when I hear about these people,
like, you can't have a family, don't have a kid, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, but how do you cut yourself off
from a huge part of a human experience?
And then you're supposedly gonna make art or work
that relates to those people.
You know what I mean?
Like, cats.
You need that.
I think the balance is actually really important
to being able to do it over a long period of time
and not lose your mind.
Well, that's what scares me
with my profession,
the anything that I do now.
And I got a good balance right now, quote unquote.
But if the more success you have,
and with that obsession comes,
okay, how are you going to be the best parent you can,
the best husband you can?
And I, you look at the people that have done
extraordinary things, you look at their personal lives.
Yeah.
But doesn't it, don't you think it underline it?
Those accomplishments, like when I, like, You look at their personal lives. Yeah. But doesn't it, don't you think it underlines those accomplishments?
Like when I, like, Hemingway,
shitty husband, shitty parent,
to me that is a poll that hangs over the works.
Do you know what I mean?
But doesn't, isn't that a lot of,
Buddha,
believe in his family?
Yeah.
I look at, maybe Martin Luther King,
like you look at the presidents, I look at coaches.
There's a lot of coaches that have shitty families.
I won't name names, but there's a lot,
like famous, famous, famous coaches,
that their home life is abysmal,
and their relationship with their children is not good.
Can you be obsessed with something and still have that that that I think it's certainly can be done right there people that do it well.
So the question is like who is it I forget some author and he was saying that early on in his career, someone said to him, every kid you have is a book you won't write, right?
Let's say being a better father,
so we don't name names,
that being a better father or mother
would have earned this coach one extra super bowl,
or 10% more wins, or made this artist's work 10% better.
Who gives a shit?
Right?
Like Mark just really talks about this.
He's like, people who long for like,
posthumous fame to be considered the best who ever did it.
They're forgetting two things.
One, that they won't be around
to enjoy the posthumous fame, right?
And two, the people in the future will also suck.
So why do you really care that much about impressing them?
Right?
And so I think sometimes, yeah, you go like,
this is what it takes, this is the trade-off.
Yeah.
But like, why are you making that trade-off?
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, you've already proven that you can master this thing.
You've already proven that you can win. thing. You've already proven that you can win.
You've already made a positive impact in the world
through what you've done.
I guess the virtue of temperance or moderation
is really important.
Like, taken too far, the greatness becomes a vice or an addiction.
And you don't even get the benefit of like,
like at a certain point, you have enough.
And I think you have to,
I think I'm more interested in being great at my thing
and I think that I have sort of a journey.
So for me, it's like, I wanna do great work.
I wanna have great marriage.
And then I wanna raise great kids.
And those three things, they're not in tension with each other, great work, I want to have great marriage, and then I want to raise great kids.
And those three things, they're not in tension with each other, but they check each other.
In the same way that we have an executive and a legislature and a judicial branch, they
check each other out.
And if one of them has too much power, it screws up the balance of those three.
So I think about it that way.
They're in tension with each other.
If I focused exclusively on my marriage to what you could do, but it came at the expense
of like her kids, that wouldn't be great.
And then if I only was focused on family and then like what I feel like my contributions
through my writing and my work would go away, you know that I would feel like I was leaving
something on the table. But also, if you told me, hey, you could sell
100% more books, but once your kids move out,
they'll never come home for the holidays again.
You'll look back, you're talking to your wife exclusively
through lawyers or something.
I wouldn't be like, I want, I did it.
You know what I mean? And so I think they're in tension with each other,
but they also compliment and improve each other
if done right.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's, I guess that's part of it, right?
That's to figuring out what is that.
You have to give up stuff in order to do that.
Yeah, you can't.
Well, the rule I heard, I had Austin Cleon here, who I really
like, he says, um, work family scene, pick two. Yeah. Um, so we're, I think you can do great work.
You can have, you can be a good family person, but you're probably not going to get to go to
as many parties. Yeah. Do as much cool. King on the strips, King on the,
like, and that's the stuff you have to give up.
A lot of people, when you're young, that's tough.
Yeah, I always see that with athletes.
I'm like, what are you doing at this nightclub?
Like, why?
Like, what are you there for?
I know, I was there.
I was like, I got it.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, of course.
But that's coming at the expense of this other thing,
which deep down ultimately brings more happiness
of the building.
It's probably the reason I didn't get married
until I was 30.
Yeah.
And I got into league when I was just turned 21.
So I had a long time to be in the league.
And it was football and fun for me.
Yeah.
And that was it.
Nothing else mattered.
Yeah.
And then, but once you get married, I stop going out
and stop having that quote unquote fun.
That's different quote unquote fun.
That's different type of fun.
Yeah.
And that's how I was able to remain.
You can't, you can't have all three.
Yes.
I think it's either family and work or,
and that's it.
And I think that's the thing that you don't get everything.
You can't have it all.
And you have to make trade-offs.
Mm.
It's tough.
That's life though.
It's life. Yeah. Well, that's part of, you have to make trade-offs. Mm. It's tough. That's life though. It's life.
Yeah.
Well, that's part of, you have to plan for it.
That's part of your route.
Me, I have a routine.
Like, when I wake up, I want to do my writing.
I want to do my reading.
I want to do all this stuff.
And this is,
Why do I remember I asked you if you wanted,
were you having someone over for dinner
and you wanted to come, you're like,
no, this is like kids moving night.
And I was like, oh, I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're like, this is the thing.
I like that where I'll talk to someone that I'm like,
no, I'm home for bath time every night.
And I think you need that though.
In the same way that as an athlete,
you need to like, look, practice starts at this time.
And if you're like, you have to have structure,
you have to have structure and systems
and routine
or your life is chaos and disorder.
And I think family, if done right,
although it is disruptive and it blows up your life
in a lot of ways, it also provides structure
because you really quickly realize kids need structure.
You know, like if you're just like,
oh, sometimes we're here, sometimes we're there,
sometimes we get up at this time,
sometimes we go to the, if your kids are a nightmare
because they're like the world is chaotic and unpredictable, but when you're here, sometimes we're there, sometimes we get up at this time, sometimes we go to the, your kids are a nightmare because they're like,
the world is chaotic and unpredictable.
But when you're like,
no, this is when we do these things.
Yeah.
Everyone just like,
there's a stillness to it.
Everyone calms down.
You just get,
you realize human beings need like a rhythm.
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
That's,
that's what I tried to do around the,
the old Gonzalez house.
Good, good, good.
Dude, this is amazing.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, my pleasure.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for listening to the Daily Stoke Podcast.
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