The Daily Stoic - Tony Gonzalez on Becoming Your Best Self

Episode Date: July 23, 2022

Ryan talks to former NFL football player about his transition from sports to broadcasting and acting, the path to becoming your best self, the process of becoming great at any skill, and more....Tony Gonzalez is regarded as one of the greatest tight ends of all time. He spent his first 12 seasons with the Kansas City Chiefs, who selected him in the first round of the 1997 NFL Draft. During his last five seasons, he was a member of the Atlanta Falcons. Since retiring in 2013, Gonzalez has served as an analyst for Fox Sports.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance and wisdom. And then here on the weekend we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,
Starting point is 00:00:55 and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. I guess this would have been, yeah, this would have been the book tour for Stillness is the key. I was in Los Angeles and, you know, they just booked you on all this stuff.
Starting point is 00:01:37 And so, you know, they were like, you're doing this podcast with this guy named Tony and it's in his house, West Side of LA, so head over there. And, you know, I was like, so, like, just doing, like, the thing, the next thing in front of me, that, this is my memory of it, right? That my, I wasn't really aware exactly where I was going or what I was doing,
Starting point is 00:02:00 but I pulled up to this insane house in Beverly Hills and I was super early. And so I went for a long walk around the neighborhood. I finally get back. I go in the house and I'm doing the podcast at Tony Gonzalez's house. Maybe the greatest tight end of all time. Certainly one of the greatest NFL players of the last several decades. He spent 12 seasons with the chiefs, five seasons with the Falcons, Hall of Famer. He was an analyst for Fox. Now he's an analyst for Amazon.
Starting point is 00:02:34 But one of the greats of all time and all of a sudden we're sitting down and he had, I think written one of my books and that we had this great conversation. It came out. It was a cool experience and then I just went on to the next thing. It's weird, you have these sort of moments in time, and you don't think you could have no conception of like what like the next thing is gonna be where you're gonna re-bump into someone or whatever, but I remember flash forward through a pandemic. I
Starting point is 00:03:08 open a bookstore, all this stuff. I get a text from the manager of the bookstore and she says, this is really weird, but this guy named Tony Gonzalez is in the bookstore. And he says he knows you. Can I give him a copy of the new book? This courage had just come in. And I was like, are you kidding me? Of course. Anyways, he had moved to Austin and we've gotten reconnected. He's come out to the bookstore a couple of times. We love to eat at Basecamp, which is this awesome sandwich place right about like half block from the bookstore. One of my favorite places to eat lunch. If you ever come out to the painting porch, they're closed on Sunday Monday.
Starting point is 00:03:48 So you can only do it during the week, but in Saturdays, but with love based camp, he brought out his wife October one time, and I would say we've become friends, and it's been awesome. And after him coming out and having a bunch of long and very philosophical conversations on the back porch of the painted porch, I said, tell me what you want to come back out and we could
Starting point is 00:04:12 do the podcast and talk about the same stuff and people could listen and he said, absolutely, and I'm so glad he did. We had an awesome conversation. And I'm just, you know, you're just sitting there. And again, I'm flashing back to our original meeting, but it's just like this dude was in 14 pro bulls six first team all pros played in almost 300 NFL games. By the way, he only fumbled twice. Like try to wrap your head around the strength and training and skill it would take your head around the strength and training and skill it would take to absorb the hits that this guy has taken and to never drop the ball. Tony will be the first to tell you that his NFL career wasn't an easy road to the top. That's actually something we talked about. He wasn't one of those guys that just clicked as soon as he got in the lead. He was a slow and steady climb, but once he got there, I mean, he did not drop the ball literally and figuratively.
Starting point is 00:05:06 And that's what we talked about in today's episode. I think you're really going to like it. You can follow him on Twitter and Instagram at Tony Gonzalez, 88. I really enjoyed this conversation and you can watch a video of it on YouTube as well because we recorded it. And I really appreciate it and Tony, I hope to see you at the painted porch anytime you want to come out. What do you think about the past when you said you think that statue should come down? Yeah.
Starting point is 00:05:41 And the reason I asked this, when I did find in your roots, yeah, which will come out soon, I don't care if it's on, he showed me a picture. Obviously, I'm part black. And if you're an American who's been here for a while, if you're black, obviously, probably more likely, you had slaves. You got slaves in your family. So I had slaves in my family. And he showed me a picture of the slave owner,
Starting point is 00:06:08 of one of my grandfather who tried to escape and the guy put out an ad saying, hey, I lost my slave. Have you seen him? And that was my grandfather who escaped for a while. From Georgia? This was in Georgia. Or North Carolina.
Starting point is 00:06:24 North Carolina, Georgia. And so anyways, he goes, how does it feel to look at that picture? Yeah. And I was talking to my wife about this last night because in the moment, I said, I looked at it and I said, okay, yeah, I'm pissed off, screw this guy. Yeah, sure.
Starting point is 00:06:38 But also at the same time, I'm thinking this guy's just, he's just ignorant. Like it was just what everybody was doing back then. It doesn't make an excuse, but everybody, this is America people. And for me to get, I'm not gonna give him the satisfaction, it mad at him. But I don't know, I just feel like if everybody was doing it,
Starting point is 00:07:01 it doesn't make it right, but this fool didn't know any better. And he was probably taught that from his family. I'm sure his dad, and he would be lost if he didn't have slaves. So maybe even if he did want to do something differently back then, it would be financial suicide to not have slaves. And so I don't know, I look at these. No, it's complicated. So I These questions. You can think about it. I think you want to think about it. There's a great quote from Keeetz. And he says it sort of talks about negative capability.
Starting point is 00:07:35 The ability to have contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time, right? Like I think simple-minded people can only think of one thing. Yeah. Wisdom is the ability to sort of manage complexity in your mind. So first off, I think it is important to think back and go, okay, like, what would it be like to be born
Starting point is 00:07:52 in a society where everyone owns slaves, not just where everyone owns slaves, but the entire culture was predicated, not just on slavery, not being bad, but slavery being a positive good, that it was supported by the Bible, that black people were inferior, that it was supported by the Bible, that black people were inferior, that it was actually kind to do, you know, you go through all of it.
Starting point is 00:08:10 So of course, it would fuck with your mind. And we should be humble enough to go if we were born in that society, it would have worked our mind. And it's not for certain that we would have bucked all of that to do the right thing. So there's some sympathy. At the same time, and there's another question I like, it's like, what would you do if you were born then? Instead of thinking about it historically, you should just think about, well, what are you doing now? What are the choices you're making now? And I think when you think about that way, it doesn't completely let you off the hook,
Starting point is 00:08:42 because what about all the people that are massively wrong about stuff in the world right now? But like, it's pretty obvious what the right thing is, right? And so you wouldn't give people in the present, you wouldn't let them off the hook, right? You'd be like, you have to avail yourself the information, you have to make courageous choices, you have to be empathetic. So I think it's complicated.
Starting point is 00:09:03 As far as the statues go, I've written about this a bunch, my view is, if it was a statue put up in, let's say, a cemetery, shortly after the war, in memory of people who died, that would be one thing, right? This statue was put up, for instance, just I know a lot about this one. It was put up in 1910, so it was put up
Starting point is 00:09:22 60 years, or now 50 years after the war. Why 60 years, or 50 years after the war. Why was it put up 50 years after the war? And I'll give you my history. So my great-grandfather on my mother's side was drafted by and fought for Germany in the Second World War. My dad's father landed in Normandy, so it was on the right side of it,
Starting point is 00:09:40 but I have a Nazi in my past, right? That was 70 years ago. But if today I went to Germany and I was like, I don't think that Nazis were good, but I do want to build a monument to my grandfather. You would be like, we are obviously just a Nazi sympathizer. Why would you do that? Why would you put up a statue to a horrible cause, to someone that you didn't even meet, 50, 60, 70 years after. It's because it's a form of propaganda designed to intimidate and celebrate heinous ideas.
Starting point is 00:10:16 So when you actually study why these statues are up, it's not immemorial of flawed people who died. It was put up as part of the Jim Crow segregation, not even cause, but part of a corrupt governmental system designed to perpetuate that. So you would think about, there were black people here when they put up that statue, right? Like who lived in this town of Bastrop?
Starting point is 00:10:43 But they had been illegally and unconstitutionally stripped of their right that statute, right? Like who lived in this town of Bastrop? But they had been illegally and unconstitutionally stripped of their right to vote, right? They had no say over the laws in this town. They were persecuted and intimidated by the police, by the clandet, et cetera, right? So like, that statute is not this dated piece of history. It was literally a representation of what you would call white supremacy, designed to, dated piece of history. It was literally a representation of what you would call white supremacy,
Starting point is 00:11:07 designed to perpetuate said white supremacy. So, I'm not saying you have to, you know, you have to obliterate it into dust. I'm just saying, you can't, people, have you heard of the Rodney Reed case? No. The Rodney Reed case is like one of the big deaf penalty cases in Texas
Starting point is 00:11:23 that like a lot of people think he's innocent. It's complicated. He's been on death row for a long time. Anyways, the point is a black dude in this town was sent to death row in the courthouse that he had to walk past said statue to be tried. So my thinking on it and we're getting way afield, But is, what is the actual purpose of the statute, what is the message it's sending? And then why would we spend tax dollars today
Starting point is 00:11:51 to support it and protect it if that makes sense? I agree. I agree. Yeah. I agree. The question, and I've had a little bit about this. I forgot to bring it to the book, but it was really, really good.
Starting point is 00:12:08 People that are for these statues, for family members, and they're saying, well, it's not, obviously, I don't believe what they fought for, but it's my great great grandpa, and I want his statue up just to remember him. You know, yada, yada, yada. What do you say to those people? I'm saying I would imagine imagine there's actually a great book called How the Word Is Past.
Starting point is 00:12:27 You know, I'd imagine. That's the book I read. Yeah, that's the book I read. Yeah, that's the one. The word is past. I think, I think, again, if I went, if I was like, there needs to be a Nazi memorial to people like my grandfather in Germany,
Starting point is 00:12:41 you'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, right? So it's only because we have 150 plus years of what they call the lost cause mythology that has laundered and lied and tried to cover up the true heinousness of like the Civil War. I went and I spoke to this Monuments Commission about the thing and I was like, this is literally a monument to the worst cause that has anyone has ever fought a war over. Like this is the worst cause that anyone has ever fought a war over. We were like they were like, hey right now the Constitution doesn't specifically protect slavery.
Starting point is 00:13:25 So we're gonna leave the United States and start our own country, explicitly founded on our right, not just to own other people and exploit their labor, but also rape them with impunity and kill them with them. That's like the worst cause of all time. So the idea that you're like, oh, I just really care about the memory of my relative
Starting point is 00:13:44 that you've never met, right? Strikes me as actually your, you've just interned. I think people don't like to have the version of the history they were taught as kids challenged. This is what I think the debate over critical race theory is largely about. It's just like, I don't wanna have to change my mind. Yep. Right?
Starting point is 00:14:06 And I think the mark of a smart person is the ability to change your mind. And so I think there's just a lot of just like, I like things how they are. Yeah. And here you are making me uncomfortable by demanding that I update those assumptions. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:14:21 Right? And that's hard. I just learned about the trail of tears. Oh yeah. and I guess the cotton rich soil that the United States gave the American native tribes One of them being the seminal native Americans and then they took it back because they said hey
Starting point is 00:14:41 That's great. We did the same thing with oil once they discovered oil. Once they discovered it, they're like, okay, give it back to us, get your out of here. And forcefully, we'll kill you if you don't get off. But before they did that, on that soil, the seminal Native Americans had slaves. And they had obviously black slaves. And so I think when you, if you're a student now, and it's always the young ones that are saying,
Starting point is 00:15:08 man, this is ridiculous, tear down those statues, tear down those statues, are you gonna change the name of the Florida state football team now, the seminals, or is that what they're called? Do you start doing all these, and that's part of, okay, I don't want to have this conversation now. Let's just move on and be happy now.
Starting point is 00:15:27 It looks like I've been moving for the Redskins for 40 years, and now you're gonna call them something else. Yeah, don't change in them. Yeah. Okay, but is that really that, like, I think a people get really caught up in things that don't matter, that you would adjust to really quickly. I think at the core of it, people just don't like change. This is one of the things
Starting point is 00:15:45 that Stokes talk about that. Everything good has also come from a change, right? And so people just don't like change. And they definitely don't like, they don't like change that would imply that the way they were doing it before was wrong. So like, I'll give you an example. Like my parents do this, where it'll be like, they're like, hey, you can't, like, that's not a thing that we do with kids anymore. I'm not even talking about violence, it's like, hey, like, you can't give a kid X or like, you can't say something like that,
Starting point is 00:16:19 like X to a kid. Or like, I remember my mom was like, oh, you can't put a kid in the front seat of a car, you know, or whatever. And it's like, hey, you haven't been able to do that since I was a kid. Why are you talking about, right? And the reason they're sensitive to that
Starting point is 00:16:36 is because by saying this new way is better and safer. It's implying that the old way was not safe or came from some, you know what I mean? And so people don't, but really like you were doing the best, and I think this goes to your point of the ancestor a little bit, because I mean he definitely knew when he was holding your great grandmother down and raping her against her will that she probably was not enjoying this, right? If not in that instance, the vast majority of these encounters are definitely not happening with consent, right?
Starting point is 00:17:10 So like, they knew, but at the same time, they were doing what everyone else was doing, and then this is probably a little bit me too. It's like, oh, but everyone used to make jokes like this. Why am I being sent? People don't like to change if the new change implies that the old way was unfair or mean or unethical or whatever. So, but that is life. We should be getting better and the ways we used to do things should be like, wow, I can't believe we did things that way. Yeah, yeah, and that's growth. But yeah, God, it's so hard for, like you said, for people to actually want to change, to stretch themselves.
Starting point is 00:17:48 And people are lazy. Yeah, I mean, I've seen it when I played football. Guys are even at the professional level. Nobody wants to stretch themselves. Nobody wants to put in that extra time, because it's uncomfortable. It mentally and physically and spiritually. Like a hardcore religious person.
Starting point is 00:18:09 Don't you dare. I can present all the evidence to you that maybe what you're thinking is not right. And they're like, I don't care. I'm going to continue to do it my way, because tradition. And I've always done it this way. And if I do change, like with your parents, if you say, hey, you shouldn't have your kid in the front seat, they're going always done it this way. And if I do change like with your parents, if you say, hey, you shouldn't have your kid in the front seat.
Starting point is 00:18:28 They're gonna, like my mom, and I tell her things, and she's like, no, well, look at you. You turned out fine, look at you. And what do you, like, you down inside there saying, well, you're calling me a bad parent now. Yeah, it's not counting. I'm not calling you bad, you just didn't know. We didn't have the data then, right?
Starting point is 00:18:43 Like, we didn't have the data, or we didn't have the technology to do a better like we didn't have the data or we didn't have the technology to do a better alternative. So it's not an indictment of you, it's just we have better information now. And Paul Graham has this great essay about how like the more things you identify with, the stupider you are.
Starting point is 00:19:01 He doesn't mean like you're a dumb person. He means like when you identify with something, it makes it harder for you to change. So if you identify as, like I identify as a southerner whose comes from a long, proud Confederate tradition, and then I'm like, look, Robert Ealy was a piece of shit. You know, look at this, look at this, look at this. You can't accept that information because it challenges your sense of you as a human being.
Starting point is 00:19:32 And this is something I actually wanted to talk to you about. Think about this. We have someone identifies as an NFL player or as an all star or a pro-bola or a famous person. As you identify with these things that are part of your job that have an expiration date on them, it makes it impossible for you not just to handle the inevitable decline that we all skills would go through, but then what about when you when that does come to an end? Right? Like now you're not that person anymore, but you can't change or adapt because you've identified with it,
Starting point is 00:20:05 and then this feels like a form of death, when really it's just a transition into something new. Yeah. Yeah. Well, are you asking me like, how did I deal with that? Yeah. I think, I think, you know, as you were talking, and we're talking about race
Starting point is 00:20:21 was the first time it's ever done to me. And I, because honestly, it wasn't that hard for me. Interesting. And the reason I think it wasn't that hard for me is because, me and I'm just thinking out loud here. So maybe this is, I haven't thought this fully out, but I'm gonna say it the best I can.
Starting point is 00:20:41 I am multiracial, okay, part growing up. This is what I thought. I thought I was, I didn't know what the hell I was, honestly. And I still get this question. Everywhere I go, the first question people ask me if they don't, if they don't know who I am. Like if I'm traveling overseas, well, they do, they say, are you a football player,
Starting point is 00:21:00 American football player, or are they say, and then they go, where are you from? Who are you? What are you? And you look at me and I get it. I look at them say, and then they go, where are you from? Who are you? What are you? And you look at me and I get it. I look at them every day and I'm going, who do I identify with? And so I grew up thinking that I knew I was part black.
Starting point is 00:21:14 I knew I was part Latino. My last name is Gonzales. My grandfather was from Argentina, or so he said he was. And then obviously a little bit of white. And so I grew up with that, and that's extremely hard. It really, really is. In any biracial person listening,
Starting point is 00:21:34 knows what I'm talking about, because everywhere you go, you're an outsider, right? You don't, then you were talking about, I'm a southerner, and this is me. I didn't have that opportunity. I've never identified with anything. Excuse me. I've never identified with anything
Starting point is 00:21:50 because I wasn't allowed to identify with anything. If I would go to a black neighborhood, they would call me White Boy. If I would go to a white neighborhood, I'd been called Nigger. I'd go if I was around other white neighborhood, I've been called Nigger. I'd go if I was around other white neighborhood, they'd call me Beener, which is a derogatory nation for Mexicans, and I'm not Mex, or Wetback,
Starting point is 00:22:17 whatever, I've been called that a bunch. I've been called all these racial slurs, not in a fun way either, like that was a derogatory, like they were calling me out, trying to hurt my feelings. And so I've always felt like I haven't identified and I'm wondering if that's why I'm never cling to anything. I'm not a fan of anything. I've never been a fanatic with music, with sports,
Starting point is 00:22:38 even growing up as a kid. I didn't, it wasn't like, oh, that's my team or that's my guy. Like it was always a bunch of different, and that's why I said I've's my guy. Like, it was always a bunch of different, and that's why I said, I've got to put it all together right now that maybe that's because I've never really identified with anything.
Starting point is 00:22:51 I've identified with all of it, but it's never been mine. Well, so it's like you're sort of figuratively a free agent. You just sort of go with what you want to go with or what you feel an affinity towards at a moment, as opposed to like, this is who I am, this is unchanging, and as a result, if someone attacks me for that or undermines that or it changes, like in the case of football going away, you're not feeling some sort of like loss or grievance. No, and I get to be honest at it.
Starting point is 00:23:19 To me, there's freedom in that. I mean, of course, some people aren't going to like that because people want you to pick aside. Yeah. They want you to be on their team. Uh, what do you think? There's also one things to be simple and obvious, right? The idea that like, I'm a bunch of things. People are like, I don't have time for this. Like, I want to put you in one box. Yes. So to make it simple for me, it's comfortable for me to put you in a box. I remember Tiger Woods came out and said, he's blazing or whatever it was. And bad, like the black community win nuts.
Starting point is 00:23:46 Maybe the Asian community win nuts. Like people win nuts, they're like, no, you are black. It's all there is to it. And I guess he is black, but why can't you be, a little bit, you can identify with everything. I don't know, especially in America. Come on.
Starting point is 00:24:02 We're in America. Come on. We're in America. Everything is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so-expert-expert. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently?
Starting point is 00:24:50 And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. I remember when I wrote this book about Peter Tio and the sort of inciting incident for him
Starting point is 00:25:17 and conspiracy was that this website outed him as gay. And he was like upset about that. And so people said, well, is it because you're ashamed of being gay? Like obviously, they're like, we're not saying it's bad. Why are you upset that we said that you're gay? And I think they're being a little disingenuous because the tone of the article that added him was like very sort of sneering and sort of condescending. But his point was like, that's just not the thing I want to be known for. He's like, I want to be known as like an investor or an entrepreneur. I don't want to be a gay entrepreneur.
Starting point is 00:25:50 In the same way that like women, they're like, don't call me an actress or a waitress. Like, I'm not the female version of that thing. I just am the thing. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know what? I don't, I don't give a shit. What do you think of me?
Starting point is 00:26:09 Honestly, for the most part, you can put me in whatever box you want. Yeah. I'm gonna be okay. And because I have my inner circle, I have my wife, I have my children, and I have my, you know, my, my couple of close really good friends.
Starting point is 00:26:20 And I care about what they think. For most people out there, I want to be the best I can for you. I'm trying for that. It's important to me, but I'm not connected to that. I don't need it, but I want it. I want you to approve of me, but I don't need you to approve me. And I'm working my ass off to perform for you on the football field, or like you talk about the transition to broadcasting or acting, which is what I'm doing now.
Starting point is 00:26:47 Like I'm trying, and I'm going to work my ass off to do the best I can to present the best product or best performance I can. And I want you to like it, but if you don't, then I just not I can do it, because it's out of my control. I guess that's... That's the definition. That's the definition. Yeah, is this thing up to me?
Starting point is 00:27:04 And yeah, one of my favorite quotes from Mark is to realize he's basically saying like, look, like ambition is like tying what you say and think and do to like what other people say and think, right? Like I want to be selected to the pro-bull or I want to be given a scholarship or I want to be, you know, inducted to the Hall of Fame, or I want to be, I want the Critics Choice Award or Best Sellerless, right? Those things.
Starting point is 00:27:30 But it says, sanity is tying it to your own actions. So like, you have to, in a way, you have to come, it's not that the external scorecard is not important because of course it is. If you don't catch the ball, if you don't get enough yards, like, you don't get, or you don't get the same size contract that you might. Like if my books don't sell, people stop asking me to write books, or they stop paying me to do books. But if that's your success, well, what if you do something that's like ahead of its time, or what if you do something that people don't appreciate or don't expect,
Starting point is 00:28:01 or what if you're doing it for a different set of motivations, then you're not going to get that thing that you're, now you've, you've essentially said success is up to my success is somebody else's decision, which is not a good place to live and not a good place to do good work from. I think you have to cultivate like your own metric of success. So I try to be in a place where the book is a success on day one, like before it comes out, or say day zero, let's say, or day negative one, and then everything else is extra.
Starting point is 00:28:35 Like I know the process was enjoyable. I know it was creatively fulfilling. I know objectively I did something that I wanted to do, and then if it sells a thousand copies or a million copies, which isn't fully in my control, that is only extra or no more than I already have. Do you still have your feelings get hurt? Sure. I mean, so conspiracy.
Starting point is 00:29:02 I think is my best book. It's probably sold the least well of all the books. It's still a success. If any other author published it and it's sold out, I'm going to copy it. It's so nice. You did a good job. But you can make a living, but it didn't do what I wanted it to do., its success is not, let's say its sales figures are not commensurate with like my judgment of it. But like in a sense, I was glad that that happened because it helped decouple the two from each other.
Starting point is 00:29:37 So now I know I can do my best work and it might not be my most commercially successful work. Conversely, I did this book, Growth Hacking several years ago that my publisher suggested, and I was into it and I liked, I'm glad I did it, but it sold very well and then looked at it, but like, when I'm looking back on my life, I'm not like, oh, that was so meaningful to me.
Starting point is 00:30:00 So it helped me couple commercial success and creative fulfillment slash like challenge of it. And so now I try not to think about that. Uh-huh. I also, it sounds like an artist who, a musician playing the hits, playing the music. Like, okay, this song that we were kind of into, all of a sudden is like the most pop is long in the world,
Starting point is 00:30:26 but the stuff I really, really want to make is not really, you know, received well. And so what do you do then? Like, that's the part. When I think ideally, there should be a track for both. I mean, there should be a track for both. Like, some, yeah, sort of, what do they call it? Like, one for me, one for them.
Starting point is 00:30:40 You know what I mean? You just kind of think about that way. I mean, ideally, you want both. Ideally, you want it to be very creatively fulfilling and commercially successful. Like, why would you make something that you didn't want to be reached to people, a lot of people? But I think you have to, you have to ultimately ask yourself, like, who is in charge? Like this audience, this mob that I'll never meet, also random luck, or like an eye in charge. Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you something, because I'm about to start like the next book in this series that I'm doing, and I wondered if you might have some insight or
Starting point is 00:31:18 relate to it. Like, when you, so, so it's season ends, and then you're, you get a couple months off or whatever, and then you're starting to gear up for the next season. What was your feeling about that? Were you excited for a new season to start or was there sort of a dread for you that you knew it was going to be very hard and it would be grueling? Once again, like you said, I forgot who you said that, but you could have both feelings. Yeah, it's kind of like better sweet. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:31:47 It's, you know what's common? You know what you just went through? The strain it put on your body, mentally, physically, spiritually, your family. It's very, very stressful. Football, people I was asked me, they're like, man, do you miss it? And I'm like, hell no.
Starting point is 00:32:02 Right. But then part of me goes, hell yeah. Yeah. Both. I mean, it's like graduating in high school. Yeah, you're gonna miss it, but you, I don't miss getting my ass kicked. The fight, the monotony of going every single day and become so boring. It's a grind, right? It's a such a tremendous grind.
Starting point is 00:32:21 And football, people, I played basketball too, and I had an opportunity to maybe go pro basketball. And certainly my career wouldn't have been, it wouldn't have been as good as I was, just from a physical standpoint. But to me, it's the best decision I've made. Obviously, to go play football, because football, but football is a fight. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:32:43 Basketball is better than football from a physicality standpoint. Football, especially back when I played, it's a constant fist fight. Every single day, imagine going to the, it's like boxing, I guess. Like it's not fun. It's not fun.
Starting point is 00:32:57 The games are fun, but it's not fun. And so, when you're going to your offices and you remember all the good, obviously you try to focus on the good. That's the way I did it. I remember the good times, the positive stuff that I did. And then you take some time off where I didn't do anything for that first month.
Starting point is 00:33:16 And then slowly but surely I'd start getting back into it. I wouldn't even touch a football. That was the beauty of basketball for me. Basketball was my saving grace because I would just go play basketball, because I really, really enjoy it. So you could stay in shape, stay in shape, and I played every single day,
Starting point is 00:33:29 and I played competitive. I played, shoot, I even tried out for the Miami Heat one off season, but I'd play in the summer pro leagues out there with Magic Johnson, a lot of, bow outlaw, I remember Antoine Jameson, like Anton Walker, Paul Pierce, like all these pro leagues, I was in them. I'm doing well for it.
Starting point is 00:33:48 But that would be a way for me to take my mind off of football. And then once the summer came, I started gearing up into it. And you started slowly but surely getting my mind wrapped around what I want to do, set some new goals, keep building off of what I did before. You're never satisfied. I think that's how you become truly, truly great. I never rested and said, oh my God,
Starting point is 00:34:08 I was first team all pro last year. It's like, no, I gotta get even better. I had a thousand yards. I need 1200 yards of shit. I need to keep pushing myself. That's pretty much how it went for me every single year. Yeah, there's an expression of painters like painting, writers like having written.
Starting point is 00:34:22 And so it's like, I imagine having played football is probably more fun in some ways than the actual game of playing football. Because like, I mean, you're getting hit by people running at full speed and people who are trying to hurt you. Like, so it's this balance of like, obviously you love doing it
Starting point is 00:34:40 or you wouldn't compulsively do it. But at the same time, it takes a toll on you. Yeah, it does take a toll. Like I said, physically, mentally, spiritually. And you go through the ups and downs. I've 17 years, man, I've had my share of depression. I've had my share of bad moments. Maybe I didn't handle it like how I wanted it, wanted to. to drink in, the part in, you know, you fame, all that stuff goes into your career. And it should. I mean, that's life. That's how it's shaped.
Starting point is 00:35:13 But for me, what I struggled with most and into that transition to, was, and it even still to this day. Like, I have a little bit of that imposter syndrome. Oh yeah. Like, I don't ever really, it takes have a little bit of that imposter syndrome. Oh yeah. Like I don't ever really, it takes me a while to feel totally, totally confident. And that's what took me so long
Starting point is 00:35:30 to become really good in the NFL. I didn't get any faster or stronger between my rookie year and my third year when I was first in my pro. Those first two years were shitty for me. And it was, and the only reason it was, is because I wasn't confident. And that's what's kind of plagued me throughout my,
Starting point is 00:35:44 I don't even know if it's a plague, maybe it's a good thing. I'm starting to read that A and posture said it was actually a good thing. Yeah. And maybe it is, but I can't shake it sometimes. I just don't feel so confident when I'm doing certain things. I mean, there's a story about Marcus to realize
Starting point is 00:35:56 that he's sort of chosen to be king. And he like, he's supposedly, this is a young man, but he sort of breaks down in tears because he's like, literally all kings have been bad. There's like no examples of like good ones. They're all, they all break bad. They end up being terrible, tyrants like addicted to pleasure, et cetera.
Starting point is 00:36:14 And he's sort of wondering whether you can do it. And then he has his dream later that he has shoulders made of ivory, that he is sort of strong enough to do it. But I was wondering that about your career because yeah, you have a sort of a slow start. But I wonder, do you think you could have played as long as you played if you'd come out of the gate stronger? Whew, I don't, obviously I don't know,
Starting point is 00:36:41 but it's the best thing never happened to me. You're right. If I would have came out and played, I would have never went through that dark, dark time in my career where I doubted myself so much. I'm talking, I got benched. I got written up in the papers, telling me I was a bust.
Starting point is 00:37:02 Like, that stuff hurts. And I still hold onto that. I mean, that's a chip I'll have for the rest of my life of being so embarrassed and feeling so much shame and guilt and all that stuff. I mean, it was all of it rolled up into one. But I think when you go through those situations, and I mean, I read a lot and I read a lot of biographies
Starting point is 00:37:23 and it seems like a lot of the people that have achieved greatness go through those really extremely dark times. Like there's nothing wrong with going through those extremely dark times as long as you eventually figure it out. Yeah, Churchill says that every prophet has to go through the wilderness
Starting point is 00:37:38 and then from the wilderness, this is where they produce psychic dynamite. The idea being that you have to go through this experience where they produce psychic dynamite. The idea being that you have to go through this experience where you're sort of sent away, it's kind of the hero's journey, where you're sent away, you're doubted, you struggle, and then if you come out of the other side of that, you're much stronger. I remember I was talking to John Snyder once, the GM of the Seahawks, and he was saying like, they have trouble when they drafts players who have never been through anything before, because like almost everyone goes through some version of that dip when you start, because
Starting point is 00:38:16 you're like the best in college, and then you're like, oh shit, like the NFL is another level, the NFL is another level. The NFL is another level. And if you've never had to adjust to not getting everything you want and struggling and having to learn and grow, like it's gonna kick your ass. Yeah, well, I had that when I was younger. I guess kind of had a bully. Oh, people can look up that story.
Starting point is 00:38:42 But I had a bully long story short. I had a bully. I played Pop Warner football. I was the worst kid on the team, had this bully come down trying to beat me up and I changed everything and it helped me become a better football player. Yeah. But then after that, once I figured that out,
Starting point is 00:38:56 a football, oh man, I just, I was the man until I was the first round drive choice. I was that guy that you probably wouldn't like. But I bet in that experience as you were adjusting, even though you're still struggling, you were drawing on the strength that you drew on. Like if you hadn't gone through what you went through as a kid, maybe you wouldn't have made it
Starting point is 00:39:15 out of the other side of those three years. And you're right, and maybe I wouldn't of, but I still did not know the formula for success when I became a professional. Sure. Now before that talent wise, I'm 65, I can jump really high, I'm strong, I'm quick, I'm athletic, this is just,
Starting point is 00:39:29 and I didn't ask for this, this was just given to me from birth genetically. And so I relied on that a lot. Now I worked hard, don't get me wrong, I worked my ass off, but I did, my working my ass off was what they told me to do. So if practice started at one, I showed up at one, and I worked my ASSOF for those two hours
Starting point is 00:39:48 until three o'clock, three, 30, whatever it is, and went home. I did exactly what they asked me to do. And this is what I tell incoming rookies now in the NFL. I say welcome to the world of your no longer special. No one gives a shit. You ran up four, three, so does he, so does he, so does he. Oh, you bench four and a pound.
Starting point is 00:40:09 So does he. Oh, your first team, all American. Good, good for you. You won the Heisman. It's that guy over there, he won the Heisman. He doesn't even start. Yeah. Okay, nobody cares who you are and what you've been through
Starting point is 00:40:18 anymore, what's gonna separate you at the professional level. This is, I don't care what it is. It's the obsession. Yeah. It's the, for me, I don't care what it is. It's the obsession. Yeah. It's the, for me, I had to figure out, I had to go out, I can't show up at one o'clock and be done at 3.30 after practice. I have to show up earlier, 30 minutes before everybody gets out
Starting point is 00:40:35 there and I need to catch balls. Yeah. And while the defense is going, I need to catch balls. While when coach calls us up afterwards and everybody goes home to go play video games and go talk to the sweetie pies, I'm gonna stay after and I'm gonna catch more balls with my chin strap buckled, mouthpiece in, eyes wide open, focused in the game situation, getting ready,
Starting point is 00:40:56 obsessed with being the best. And when I go home, I don't turn it off. I can be watching a basketball game or a football game that I'm always thinking about, okay, how am I gonna get better? Yeah, I make the joke like I would be watching a basketball game or a football game like that. And I'm always thinking about, okay, how am I going to get better? Yeah. I make the joke, like, I would be walking down a hallway in my house. And I still do this to this day.
Starting point is 00:41:11 I'll fake left and go right around the corner. Sure, sure. To go get some out of the refrigerator. Yeah. Because it's just, I was so obsessed and so programmed with that. And that's one of the things, you talk about that transition. I forgot, that's what made me so great at football,
Starting point is 00:41:29 and I think a lot of players forget about what made them so great when they played, and that's why you look at the statistics, when players get done playing, any professional sport, it's a huge falloff, I mean, depression, financial troubles, divorce, addiction, all that stuff that happens. And I think it's because they expect to be great
Starting point is 00:41:53 again right away at whatever it is they choose. Not for sure. But you started at zero. Right, not really. Let's think. That you gotta go through all that embarrassment again, all that boring work again, all that stuff that made you great before, you forget.
Starting point is 00:42:05 And I forgot. I forgot. I thought, okay, well, I'll study for an hour and get ready for this broadcast, and I'll be great. And it's like, no, it's not going to be good. Well, that's, that's, you go right, the idea that like you have like the mightest touch. Right. Because you were good here.
Starting point is 00:42:19 Like, think about an investor. You make some great investment. You pick some company, it sells for a lot. Now just like the next thing that you're like, oh, that could be good. That doesn't, you have to, everything, there's a rule in writing that your last book doesn't write your next one,
Starting point is 00:42:32 you're always starting zero. And I think that's why this one is intimidating to me. And I think it's good that it's intimidating to me because the second you think that you're entitled to it or that it just happens, That's when you fall off. Right? I mean, obviously you learn some tricks of the trade and it becomes easier in some respects. But if the second it loses its ability to scare you a little bit, you're probably coasting and somebody's going to get you. I agree. And I like that. But another thing that I learned
Starting point is 00:43:06 through that second year going into my third year, where I went from being benched twice to being first team all pro six months later, whatever in the next season. Also putting in that extra work, but then also, I got to the point too, that I was so depressed and feeling so bad about myself, that I finally said, I don't give a shit anymore.
Starting point is 00:43:26 You're too self-conscious about it. I don't care. I don't care whether you like what I'm doing or not. My teammates, I didn't care anymore, whether you liked me or not, I'm gonna do my thing. Yeah. And I'm out there, maybe it's a little bit of selfish too. I was like, I'm going out there
Starting point is 00:43:41 and I'm just gonna play my game. I'm gonna do what I wanna, what feels natural I'm going to be totally proud. I'm not thinking about when I run this 12 yard corner in the end zone, I'm not thinking about the touchdown. I'm just totally focused now being as free as I possibly can. It's the same thing in acting. That's why I think I'm drawn to acting and broadcasting, live television and acting. You can't be thinking about the end and you can't be thinking about what just happened You have to be totally in the moment and free. Yeah, and all the way you're gonna be free is if you don't give a shit No, I think that's totally right and I think
Starting point is 00:44:13 That's how I try to remind myself as I'm like intimidated by projects or whatever is like don't think about I'm not trying this this thing. I'm, because I'm starting like two weeks. I'm starting two weeks. I can't take the end state of the book I am publishing that, like the last book, and compare it to where I am here. I'm starting totally fresh in both, in all senses of the work, right? And then I just have to be present and just do what I have to do like right now. So I just think, what's a small, like I just think about, what's the contribution that I have today? What's the deposit that I have to make today? And I know if I do that and I don't quit,
Starting point is 00:44:53 and I bring to it every day the level of commitment and intensity, et cetera, required, eventually I'll get there. It could take a year, it could take five years, it could take 20, you know, you don't know how long it's gonna take, but if you're like, I'm not gonna quit till I finish this, I'm gonna put, you'll get there.
Starting point is 00:45:09 Yeah, so that's small steps, small steps, or one percent growth per day, like all the stuff that people talk about, that's in all great wisdom, religion, people, great people, they all say the same thing. That's the point, all of it is the same thing. That's the point. All of it is the same thing.
Starting point is 00:45:27 Yes. Rapt in different boxes. Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, yeah, think about it. You're some like Buddhist monk or you're a stoic philosopher or you're a football coach trying to teach some young players who's struggling. The situations are the same. I mean, they're still people and they're intimidated by this big thing and they're like, what if you just focus
Starting point is 00:45:46 on this little part of it and you just do, the process is the process, whether you're coming out of from a spiritual tradition, a philosophical tradition, a performance like coaching, you know, it's not like any of the variables are changing just because it's different names or races or time periods in history. It's like people have been trying to solve tough problems
Starting point is 00:46:09 or get to elite performance for thousands of years and like they're like, you gotta be present, don't get distracted by the end result and like, you gotta do your best. Like, they're cliches for a reason. Yeah, yeah, and a word, as I watch you speak, and I think when you watch the greats, when you see the Jordan, the Tom Brady,
Starting point is 00:46:31 the great politicians, great actors, you see a certain level of calmness too. Yeah. Of course. That kind of changed everything for me. The way I put the word on it, on everything we talk about, your focus, your present,
Starting point is 00:46:46 to me being present is being extremely calm. Yes. Not letting your emotions, it's Bill Belichack right there. That's why I think he's the best coach in all sports. Yeah. Because of his ability to stay calm, no matter what, big win.
Starting point is 00:47:04 He'll smile a little bit and get happy, but a big loss, hey, we got our butts kicked. It's almost the same. You look at his press conferences where they lose. It's the same. And a lot of people probably don't like that. And you look at someone like an emotional coach, there was a guy named Rex Ryan, who's a hell of a coach,
Starting point is 00:47:23 but very up and down emotional, and then you get a team like that, and you get your family like that, whether you're the head of the household, like it's important with your kids, with your wife, with your family, with your business, with whatever it is, just stay that level calm. Like an even keel.
Starting point is 00:47:37 And that helps, I think that helps creativity. I think that helps you assert your confidence. It helps, everything begins, at least for me. It begins with that level of calm. Yeah, I mean my word for that is stillness and the idea is that when I think about all the best moments of my life, whether it's like performance, whether it's like happiness, like whether it's like beauty, all the like when I'm like, this was awesome. I wasn't like at 11, I was at like five. You know what I mean?
Starting point is 00:48:07 You'd calm things down, you weren't doing like 20 things at the same time, you were present, you were focused, you were still. And I think the tension though is like to be great at whatever it is you do, You also have to have an intensity, that you have to really want it, and you have to be aggressive and ambitious and invested.
Starting point is 00:48:32 So I think when people are like, oh, does that mean you don't care? No, it's that you care, the default is you care a ton, and then you have to figure out how to ratchet that down because that intensity will make you not as good as you could, you make emotional decisions, you'll take things too seriously, except like obviously Bill Belgium loves football and he's intensely driven to win. So he has to work that calmness has to sit on top of that intensity.
Starting point is 00:49:04 I think if you had a filter, like everything you talked about, all the intensity, the putting the hours in the presence, everything and then at that last stage before you go out on the before you go out on the stage or the field or the arena or the conference room or with your family. The last thing to remember is calmness, stillness. Yes, yes. Of all the books, I've read a majority of your books, stillness is the one that touched, that for me the most, because I was, you know, I think that was part of my problem
Starting point is 00:49:36 those first two years in a league. I was trying so hard and trying to force it and trying to, when you stay calm, you don't, and you have a nice routine, and you're calm, you don't have to go find success. Success will come find you. It will land right on top of you. I guess in acting, they call it one of the metaphors,
Starting point is 00:49:56 I think it's like trying to catch a feather. It's like if you go chase it, it'll go away from you. But if you just sit there still and let it come, it'll come to you. And you have to trust, it'll go away from you. But if you just sit there still and let it come, it'll come to you. And you have to trust. That takes a lot of trust. And that's where the training comes in. Sure.
Starting point is 00:50:10 You're always good at your training. Yeah. I think that's been the biggest get for me. And I keep getting it. That keeps coming up in my life. That confidence, stillness and confidence. And you can mix those two along with the work and the intensity and all that stuff.
Starting point is 00:50:28 That's when great things will happen. Well, that's why I think ego is so dangerous because I would say ego is not calm and not confident. Yes. Right? Ego is this like, people think it looks like confidence and maybe it looks like confidence on the outside, but inside, it's like buzzing. It's like fundamentally insecure, it's sensitive to slights. You know, it feels like it has to prove all these things.
Starting point is 00:51:01 It has this grandiosity, this sense of oversized sense of your own importance. So, to me, the egotistical person, it seems like they're having a good time, but they're the one that actually, it's like a duck, it's like sitting on the water, it looks calm, but it's like fucking furiously paddling. That's what ego is to me. And so, you push that ego away and you actually get to a place of calmness and confidence because you're like, I've done the work. And I also know that I've done the work and also I know that if I don't calm down and get control of myself, I won't be able to access or use the training and the skills that
Starting point is 00:51:42 I have as effectively. Yeah, I have my 12 year old name, River, and he is an intense dude. Quick to anger, quick to shout and yell. And this is something that I stress with him and to see how he's evolved his game. It's like taking off now because he's just being more relaxed. I'm like, you have to, you have to buy into that stillness. You have to, otherwise, it's, you're in for a chaotic life, an up and down life,
Starting point is 00:52:14 I don't like that emotions on my sleeve type. Yes, leader. No, it's like emotions, it's not that you, I think people have this understanding of the Stokes as being emotionless. I think it's that they try to do away with destructive emotions. Where they try not to make decisions
Starting point is 00:52:32 based on their emotions, right? It's like being angry about something is not the same as doing something out of anger or having an insecurity and then projecting that insecurity out in the world. That's not going to be helpful, right? And so you want to cultivate the ability to detach from your emotions a little bit and then be like, well, what is actually the best thing to do here? It might be to do what your anger is telling you to do, but to do it out of anger is probably not the best way to do it.
Starting point is 00:53:07 Yeah, out of it, I remember, I was at Cal, Berkeley, went with my football, and one of our defensive players came in at halftime, and this dude was yelling and screaming and going nuts, nuts, he was like, I'm going nuts so bad, like he was just angry, and he's like, we're going out there, we're going to kick nuts. He's like, I'm one, it's so bad. Like it was just angry. And he's like, we're going out there. We're going to kick their ass, sucking half. And he went out there and played the worst half of it.
Starting point is 00:53:30 Of course. And it's like, blinding. That was one of the first times I go, I like, I know, unknowingly notice. I'm like, dude, he's calm down. Like you can't, you can't, you can't play that way. You can't operate that way. Think about why do players talk trash, right?
Starting point is 00:53:45 It's to make the other player angry. Yeah. And then you know they're not going to be as good, right? And then we do that to ourselves all the time, right? Like we know that anger and other people distracts them, pisses them off, overwhelms them, gets them into trouble, and then we're like, but with me, my anger is a good,
Starting point is 00:54:06 is good fuel. And it's like, no, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. Just look at the grades. Yeah. Just look at them. Look at Tiger. Look, look at, look at Tom. I mean, these people you don't have to say their last name. That's because they, they are, they show that like Michael and they're just so calm and so graceful. They might be not calm or controlled in other parts of their life and it causes lots of problems for them. But in the thing where it matters the most, they're very calm.
Starting point is 00:54:32 Which, that's a whole different subject. How do you let off that steam too? Yes, you gotta have outlets for it. What's the, how do you get rid of that dark side? Well, so I was curious about you then. So you leave football, you go into broadcasting and now you're doing acting. Has your, I've got to imagine there's some athletes
Starting point is 00:54:55 that are like, well, I'll be good at this too. But did you go into those things as being like, no, I'm starting from zero again, and I got to figure out this craft? No, no, I mean, no, because I didn't know what to expect. The broadcasting was a little bit easier just because it's the game of football. So I know football and I've had a microphone in front of my face my whole career. So I knew I could be okay at it. And I put good work into it. I didn't put great work into it.
Starting point is 00:55:29 So that was a little, but it was a little bit easier. I'm sure. And it's not easy for all. I mean, you see a lot of these big names that try it and it just doesn't work for them. Acting was, it's a whole different animal. I mean, that's, that, because that's totally outside of what I did.
Starting point is 00:55:46 And so I thought that, okay, just because I've done a couple sitcom guest stars and I've done a couple of these movies, and I had a couple of lines here and there, that, okay, I'm great, I could be great at this. Yeah. And then, you know, I got, I got my ass kicked. I got, I got embarrassed.
Starting point is 00:56:03 I got really embarrassed. And you have, but I've been looking back, it's like I had to go through that. And then you start to remember, okay, well, shoot, I can't just study this part for 30 minutes an hour. This isn't, you know, a football broadcasting, you know? I got to like throw everything I have into it and be willing to go through the fire again,
Starting point is 00:56:24 be willing to go through the embarrassment, the the boring all that stuff that comes with being great and then I finally figured it out and I'm not and by the way when I say figured it out I figured out the formula your eye path. I'm on that path. You'll never figure it out I mean you shouldn't you'll never ever arrive. It's just you want to keep keep keep getting better but also I imagine there's an epic teedisk what I like he says like if you want to improve getting better. But also I imagine there's an epictetus quote I like, he says like, if you want to improve or get good at something, you have to be willing to be seen as foolish or ignorant.
Starting point is 00:56:51 And so I imagine acting is hard one because it's a stereotype, but the jock doesn't also do theater, right? So I imagine there's the challenge of just the emotional vulnerability and the different parts of you that acting is accessing. But then, and so you have to have a certain amount of courage and self-control to do that and be willing to be seen as something different or act in a way that maybe people don't expect
Starting point is 00:57:22 from you, but then also the willingness to go from world class at one thing to not world class at the other thing and not be like, fuck this, I quit. That must be the hardest part. It's the hardest part because the chances are that you're gonna make it in act or any like really great professional thing and job that you want to do.
Starting point is 00:57:45 I mean, it's slim. And we all know that though, too. And that's why I think we quit sometimes. It's like, man, I put everything I had into it and it still didn't work. So I might as well quit and do something else. And I got to the point like that with acting. And fact, I almost did.
Starting point is 00:57:59 I gave up. I remember I was trying and trying. I started, but I went to all the classes. I was doing two classes a week. I was really throwing myself, I started, and I went to all the classes, I was doing two classes a week, I was really throwing myself into it, and then I was doing all these auditions and getting nothing, nothing. Right, getting, to go from being everything that's inbound,
Starting point is 00:58:14 hey Tony, what are you doing this? Hey Tony, what are you doing this? We want this endorsement, you know, blah, blah, to then having to go like, being rejected for stuff. That would be a challenge. Yeah, and you get, and that's acting now. I mean, you have to understand. Where'd you see even putting yourself out there? I want this, and you give me, and that's acting now. I mean, you have to understand. Where'd you see even putting yourself out there?
Starting point is 00:58:27 I want this and they're like, now you're not right. No. That's not fun. And that's the thing about acting too. You walk into a room, they've already made up their mind sometimes. They're like, no, no.
Starting point is 00:58:37 And then somewhat being, somewhat recognizable, where people just want to come meet you or something. Yeah. They're like, hey, come here, hey. Yeah, I loved you, man. Yeah. And then we've already decided, but we just wanted to see you. Anyway, see you. We could do it.
Starting point is 00:58:50 But, you know, it's been great. And now I've been able to get some momentum. I got a couple, you know, I did a couple movies. I got a couple shows now. And you start to, you just, it's all part of it. Yeah. I mean, you have to fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, and then you finally will crack one a little bit open.
Starting point is 00:59:10 You're like, okay, I can do this. And then you start building off of that. And you have to remember, like I told you, confidence was a problem for me. And I used to teach my kids this, and I think I was wrong. I used to tell them after games, because maybe this is what I did. But I didn't do it, but I thought I was wrong. I used to tell them after games, because maybe this is what I did. I'd be like, but I didn't do it,
Starting point is 00:59:26 but I thought I was doing this, where I was like, hey, you remember, like my son would play a basketball game, or my son would play football, and he'd have like six or seven tackles in the game, but I'd be like, hey, you missed three tackles. Go home and think about those missed tackles. That's what you need to focus on.
Starting point is 00:59:44 And to me, I thought that was right, but that's, I did focus on the things that where I got it wrong. But for the most part, I was focusing on where I got it right. That's what I replayed over and over in my head. And I was building off of that. And now I tell my kids, like, yeah,
Starting point is 01:00:00 you had a couple turnovers, whatever, in the basketball game, but man, those that step back jumper, remember that. Remember you did that and keep building off of that. That's what you think about before you go to sleep tonight. And first of all, it makes it more fun for you. Sure. You know, keep your confidence up.
Starting point is 01:00:14 It'll keep you coming back for more because if you keep this negative way of thinking, and there's books written on the power of negative thinking or whatever, like, you, that'll kill you in the long run. That'll make it not fun. Yes. And it doesn't build confidence, right? Like if you're focusing on what you did wrong,
Starting point is 01:00:31 in some sense, it does potentially allow you to solve for that thing. Like if all you focus on is what you did right, then you're never gonna fix your mistakes. But if all you focus on is what you did wrong, you're also not going to develop any confidence, you're not going to develop any enthusiasm or pleasant memories with the thing. And yeah, it's a tension that you have to do both. Again, to go to a overtime. You have to be able to see what you did wrong, but also not let that
Starting point is 01:01:04 so consume you that you don't see that you did wrong, but also not let that so consume you that you don't see that you did most of what you needed to do right. Absolutely. I want to ask you, what is your thoughts on a balance in life? What about balance, family balance? Yeah, I mean, I think about it in terms of sustainability. And so like, did let's say drugs influence or make Jimmy Hendrix or Kurt Cobain or whomever's music better.
Starting point is 01:01:30 Maybe, but it also killed them, so it's not good fuel. So I think about, let's say, a lot of people think that having kids, for instance, it makes it hard to continue to write. And that like having kids for instance, it makes it hard to continue to write. And this is definitely true for women, especially historically, because like, you know, having kids takes so much time, and they didn't have time to write, or the freedom to write, or make changes, or whatever.
Starting point is 01:01:56 So it definitely takes something out of you in the short term, I think. But if it opens you up emotionally, if it balances you out, if it gives you, we're talking about it, outlet, or some sort of other thing that you're, I think my interest is not to write like a couple good books and then like take the money and retire. I want to get really good at this over a long period of time,
Starting point is 01:02:25 right? One of the benefits of acting or writing versus football they want to get really good at this over a long period of time. Like one of the benefits of acting or writing versus football is like, Tom Brees, like the longest ever do it. And it's not really that long, right? Like it's like, can you believe he's still doing it in his early 40s, right? Like people published great books when they're 80, you know what I mean?
Starting point is 01:02:42 So like I think about it over a long horizon. And so when I think about family and life and balance and pacing myself, et cetera, I'm thinking about that. Like, is this... I'm hoping it's contributing to me being able to do it sustainably and at a high level of excellence over a long period of time. And also, like, when I hear about these people, like, you can't have a family, don't have a kid, blah, blah, blah.
Starting point is 01:03:07 I'm like, but how do you cut yourself off from a huge part of a human experience? And then you're supposedly gonna make art or work that relates to those people. You know what I mean? Like, cats. You need that. I think the balance is actually really important
Starting point is 01:03:27 to being able to do it over a long period of time and not lose your mind. Well, that's what scares me with my profession, the anything that I do now. And I got a good balance right now, quote unquote. But if the more success you have, and with that obsession comes,
Starting point is 01:03:50 okay, how are you going to be the best parent you can, the best husband you can? And I, you look at the people that have done extraordinary things, you look at their personal lives. Yeah. But doesn't it, don't you think it underline it? Those accomplishments, like when I, like, You look at their personal lives. Yeah. But doesn't it, don't you think it underlines those accomplishments? Like when I, like, Hemingway,
Starting point is 01:04:07 shitty husband, shitty parent, to me that is a poll that hangs over the works. Do you know what I mean? But doesn't, isn't that a lot of, Buddha, believe in his family? Yeah. I look at, maybe Martin Luther King,
Starting point is 01:04:25 like you look at the presidents, I look at coaches. There's a lot of coaches that have shitty families. I won't name names, but there's a lot, like famous, famous, famous coaches, that their home life is abysmal, and their relationship with their children is not good. Can you be obsessed with something and still have that that that I think it's certainly can be done right there people that do it well. So the question is like who is it I forget some author and he was saying that early on in his career, someone said to him, every kid you have is a book you won't write, right?
Starting point is 01:05:07 Let's say being a better father, so we don't name names, that being a better father or mother would have earned this coach one extra super bowl, or 10% more wins, or made this artist's work 10% better. Who gives a shit? Right? Like Mark just really talks about this.
Starting point is 01:05:26 He's like, people who long for like, posthumous fame to be considered the best who ever did it. They're forgetting two things. One, that they won't be around to enjoy the posthumous fame, right? And two, the people in the future will also suck. So why do you really care that much about impressing them? Right?
Starting point is 01:05:49 And so I think sometimes, yeah, you go like, this is what it takes, this is the trade-off. Yeah. But like, why are you making that trade-off? Like, you know what I mean? Like, you've already proven that you can master this thing. You've already proven that you can win. thing. You've already proven that you can win. You've already made a positive impact in the world
Starting point is 01:06:09 through what you've done. I guess the virtue of temperance or moderation is really important. Like, taken too far, the greatness becomes a vice or an addiction. And you don't even get the benefit of like, like at a certain point, you have enough. And I think you have to, I think I'm more interested in being great at my thing
Starting point is 01:06:36 and I think that I have sort of a journey. So for me, it's like, I wanna do great work. I wanna have great marriage. And then I wanna raise great kids. And those three things, they're not in tension with each other, great work, I want to have great marriage, and then I want to raise great kids. And those three things, they're not in tension with each other, but they check each other. In the same way that we have an executive and a legislature and a judicial branch, they check each other out.
Starting point is 01:06:59 And if one of them has too much power, it screws up the balance of those three. So I think about it that way. They're in tension with each other. If I focused exclusively on my marriage to what you could do, but it came at the expense of like her kids, that wouldn't be great. And then if I only was focused on family and then like what I feel like my contributions through my writing and my work would go away, you know that I would feel like I was leaving something on the table. But also, if you told me, hey, you could sell
Starting point is 01:07:28 100% more books, but once your kids move out, they'll never come home for the holidays again. You'll look back, you're talking to your wife exclusively through lawyers or something. I wouldn't be like, I want, I did it. You know what I mean? And so I think they're in tension with each other, but they also compliment and improve each other if done right.
Starting point is 01:07:51 Yeah, yeah. And that's, I guess that's part of it, right? That's to figuring out what is that. You have to give up stuff in order to do that. Yeah, you can't. Well, the rule I heard, I had Austin Cleon here, who I really like, he says, um, work family scene, pick two. Yeah. Um, so we're, I think you can do great work. You can have, you can be a good family person, but you're probably not going to get to go to
Starting point is 01:08:20 as many parties. Yeah. Do as much cool. King on the strips, King on the, like, and that's the stuff you have to give up. A lot of people, when you're young, that's tough. Yeah, I always see that with athletes. I'm like, what are you doing at this nightclub? Like, why? Like, what are you there for? I know, I was there.
Starting point is 01:08:36 I was like, I got it. Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. But that's coming at the expense of this other thing, which deep down ultimately brings more happiness of the building. It's probably the reason I didn't get married until I was 30.
Starting point is 01:08:46 Yeah. And I got into league when I was just turned 21. So I had a long time to be in the league. And it was football and fun for me. Yeah. And that was it. Nothing else mattered. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:09:01 And then, but once you get married, I stop going out and stop having that quote unquote fun. That's different quote unquote fun. That's different type of fun. Yeah. And that's how I was able to remain. You can't, you can't have all three. Yes.
Starting point is 01:09:12 I think it's either family and work or, and that's it. And I think that's the thing that you don't get everything. You can't have it all. And you have to make trade-offs. Mm. It's tough. That's life though.
Starting point is 01:09:24 It's life. Yeah. Well, that's part of, you have to make trade-offs. Mm. It's tough. That's life though. It's life. Yeah. Well, that's part of, you have to plan for it. That's part of your route. Me, I have a routine. Like, when I wake up, I want to do my writing. I want to do my reading. I want to do all this stuff.
Starting point is 01:09:37 And this is, Why do I remember I asked you if you wanted, were you having someone over for dinner and you wanted to come, you're like, no, this is like kids moving night. And I was like, oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:09:46 You're like, this is the thing. I like that where I'll talk to someone that I'm like, no, I'm home for bath time every night. And I think you need that though. In the same way that as an athlete, you need to like, look, practice starts at this time. And if you're like, you have to have structure, you have to have structure and systems
Starting point is 01:10:04 and routine or your life is chaos and disorder. And I think family, if done right, although it is disruptive and it blows up your life in a lot of ways, it also provides structure because you really quickly realize kids need structure. You know, like if you're just like, oh, sometimes we're here, sometimes we're there,
Starting point is 01:10:21 sometimes we get up at this time, sometimes we go to the, if your kids are a nightmare because they're like the world is chaotic and unpredictable, but when you're here, sometimes we're there, sometimes we get up at this time, sometimes we go to the, your kids are a nightmare because they're like, the world is chaotic and unpredictable. But when you're like, no, this is when we do these things. Yeah. Everyone just like,
Starting point is 01:10:32 there's a stillness to it. Everyone calms down. You just get, you realize human beings need like a rhythm. Yeah, yeah, I love it. That's, that's what I tried to do around the, the old Gonzalez house.
Starting point is 01:10:43 Good, good, good. Dude, this is amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the Daily Stoke Podcast. Just a reminder, we've got signed copies of all my books in the Daily Stoke Store.
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