The Daily Stoic - UFC Fighter Michelle Waterson On Training the Mind and the Body

Episode Date: December 16, 2020

On today’s podcast, Ryan talks to champion MMA fighter Michelle Waterson about the philosophy of being a mother, a business owner, and a world renowned fighter.Known as “The Karate Hottie”, Waterson made her fighting debut in 2007 and is the former Invicta FC Atomweight Champion. In 2013 she joined the UFC and was later ranked the #1 women’s atom weight fighter in the world. She is currently ranked #7 in the Women’s Strawweight Division.This episode is brought to you by Trends. Trends is the ultimate online community for entrepreneurs and business aficionados who want to know the latest news about business trends and analysis. It features articles from the most knowledgeable people, interviews with movers and shakers, and a private community of like-minded people with whom you can discuss the latest insights from Trends. Visit trends.co/stoic to start your two-week trial for just one dollar.Today’s episode is also brought to you by Molekule. Molekule makes air purifiers that don’t just trap pollutants and impurities, but destroys them. Molekule’s air purifiers work in all sizes of rooms and are beautifully designed to match with any living space. For 10% off your first order, use promo code STOIC at Molekule.com.This episode also is brought to you by Native. Native makes amazing, all-natural deodorants, and they have some great new holiday-themed scents to make this time of year more festive. Native is risk-free to try, too. Every product has free shipping within the US, and free 30 day returns and exchanges. With service like that, it’s easy to see why Native has over 14,000 5 star reviews. Visit NativeDeo.com/stoic or use promo code STOIC at checkout to receive 20% off your first order—and be sure to order by 12/7 to receive everything by Christmas.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Michelle Waterson:Twitter: https://twitter.com/karatehottiemmaInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/karatehottiemma/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/karatehottiemma/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7umzXakvUNpkrXs27ZBx3wSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic. For each day, we read a short passage designed to help you cultivate the strength, insight, wisdom necessary for living good life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at dailystowach.com. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wonderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward.

Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's me Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke podcast. My guest today is Michelle Waterson, one of the greatest mixed martial arts fighters in the world. And as it happens, as the Stokes would love to hear, a bit of a Stoke philosopher as well. I connected with Michelle on Instagram after I saw she posted about one of my books. You can follow her at at Karate Hathi. It's two teas, MMA Karate Hathi MMA. She's a great fighter. You've probably seen her on television. She's actually fought twice during the pandemic,

which is pretty incredible. But I think she lives by the philosophy that Mark Sterely's talks about when he says, to face life like a wrestler dug in and ready for sudden attacks. Between 2013 and 2014, she was ranked as the number one women's Adam White fighter in the world, which is pretty incredible. And right now, she's ranked number the number one women's Adam Wait fighter in the world, which is pretty incredible.

And right now she's ranked number seven in the UFC, which is incredible. It was an honor to talk to her. Unfortunately, we couldn't do it in person. Michelle is also rep by Vayner like I am. So enjoy this interview where we talk stovoc philosophy, fighting, parenting, and greatness and mastery. It's an honor to talk to Michelle, and I think you'll like this one.

I was thinking about this on the one hand, it probably feels like there's nothing more different than or further apart than fighting and philosophy, and yet I actually think they are intricately intertwined. I agree. Well, I'm glad we're on the same page. And I think one of the reasons I was maybe I was drawn to your work and I think do or maybe draw onto my work is that

the Stoics were fighters themselves. Like when you read Seneca and Epictetus and works through this, they talk about wrestling and fighting and boxing as if it was the sort of sport they were drawing their metaphors from just like we do today, which I think is so interesting. Yeah, I think that it's kind of like, it's a balance, right? You need one in order to have the other. It's like the mind and the body, they have to connect.

And the best way I know to connect my mind to my body is through physical pain. You know, physical is to get over something challenging physically. And then that forces my mind to mentally become stronger. Because your mind has to override what your body wants to do or what do you mean? I would say both. I would say that I would say that I don't think I would be as wise as I believe I am right

now if I hadn't been forced to face my fears in fighting. Sure. And so every time I take a fight, I mean, I think that I've learned what I needed to learn in order to be victorious in order to win, but there was always another lesson to be learned, whether I win or lose. Yeah, and I and I can only imagine you fought what twice during the pandemic, like that it must have been lessons on top of lessons. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. The first fight from the pandemic, it was it was strange because it kind of was almost as if it was like a hazy dream.

It was strange because it kind of was almost as if it was like a hazy dream. It didn't seem all the lights and the crowd and the media. It wasn't there. And so it kind of just seemed like for myself that I was just going through the motions. And I feel like my performance reflected that. I felt like I've had more entertaining sparring matches. I couldn't get myself up to go because the crowd wasn't there. It just wasn't what was routine for me. And so coming off of that, the lesson that I had to learn was that I had to pull motivation

for myself. I had to pull motivation from myself. I had to pull motivation in other ways. I had to figure out a way to get fired up outside of external things. Sure. Right. No, it must be weird you train your whole life, the idea of a fight being in the octagon, cheering fans, the pre-fight ritual, the post-fight ritual,

and then all that goes away. How do you distinguish the fight from training real life from that sort of that moment? That must be very strange. Yeah, for sure. And then it kind of reminded me why I fight to begin with. Was it the crowd that I fought for, or was it myself that I fought for? And understanding that helped me get in the right mindset for the next fight. Yeah, that's interesting because in my world, there's a big difference between writing and publishing. Writing is what you do yourself. No one's watching. It's the hard part. It's

the training, really. And then there's the publishing, which is the ostensibly the fun part, it's the rewarding part, it's what they pay you for, right? And I remember, because I did a book in September, and so it came out during the pandemic, and it felt so different than all the other books, because you weren't doing events, you weren't doing in-person media. It just felt so different. But on the other hand, it was almost it was almost better because it was sort of like up back to work. You know what I mean? There wasn't like the build up and come down. It was kind of just like it was like another ordinary day of training. You know what I mean? Yeah. As you're saying that, I think about my fights and how you're paralleling them

together is that it's like all the stuff you do in the shadows that nobody sees. These are the things that you can appreciate yourselves and the people, the loved ones and your family can appreciate because they see you in the grind, you know, day in and day out. And then, and then when you step into the octagon and you fight and you get your hand raised, it's that moment of gratification, that moment of, of, of exhilaration, right? But I also think about when I get my hand raised, what are the thoughts that go through my head? And a lot of times the thoughts that go through my head

are all the, is all the hard work that I put in, leading up to that. Like I don't think about, yes, like my hands being raised, I think about, man, like all those times, sprinting up the hills, all those times that, you know, I, you know, I broke down in fight camp, all those times that I didn't think that I was going to be here,

because it was that battle when that nobody saw. Yeah, I remember Lance Armstrong told me once he was like, I like riding my bike, they paid me to compete, right? Like he liked the training, the actually doing the thing, and actually the least fun part was like the race. And as soon as the race was over, like he wanted to go home and go back to the thing. So, and it must be, it must be, I mean, obviously, uh, bi-gracing is painful, but, but you're literally getting punched in the face.

Um, you know, like you have to actually like the training and the practice and the strategy of it more than those like five minutes in the ring because that's a deeply, it's literally a painful experience. I don't think I like it, but I know that it's necessary. I don't know if that makes sense. I don't. It's grueling and it's hard. And there are moments, and don't get me wrong. I think that I've worked on my mental practice enough to embrace the process, to know, to understand that that is kind of the

meat of everything. And so, like, in that way, I do enjoy it because I know the benefits that I'm going to reap from it, but I know that it's going to be a hell of a uphill battle for sure. Well, so I was going to read you this quote. this is from one of the stoic philosophers, his name is Panateus, and he says, we must be similar to the athletes who are called pancreatists. He says, for just as they, when called to the contest, stand with their arms raised and stretched out and protect their head and face by opposing their hands as a rampart. And as all their limbs before the battle has begun, are ready to avoid or deal blows. So the spirit and mind of the wise man on the watch everywhere and at all times against violence and injury ought to be alert, ready strongly

protected, prepared in time of trouble, never flagging in attention, never relaxing its watchfulness, opposing judgment and forthought like arms and hands to the strokes of fortune and the snares of the wicked, less than any way a hostile and sudden onslaught be made upon us when we are unprepared and unprotected. And you know what pancreas is, it was like the ancient form of MMA. I just love this. The stonics used over and over again, this image of the philosopher as sort of the wrestler or the boxer who sort of protected but also ready

to go. How do you feel like your training has sort of shaped your philosophy of life? Because I'd rather be prepared then afraid. I'd rather have all the tools in my box that are readily available than be left in the punches and you have to take the good with the bad. And a lot of the times, if you ignore the bad, you don't get to really enjoy the good as it was intended to be. Like if you, I don't know how to also explain it other than like if you didn't earn your stripes, like the victory isn't, isn't worth it, you know what I mean? Like if it's given to you, it's just kind of like,

oh yeah, like you don't have as much pride in it as other rather than if you know how hard you've worked for it. And all those things I can translate into my life, into teaching my daughter, into whatever I decide to do when I'm done fighting. Yeah, I was thinking about that. It's like if it was easy, everyone would do it. And then it wouldn't matter that you did it. Do you know what I mean? Like if it didn't require the training, if it didn't require sort of pushing through the pain. If there weren't obstacles, then there'd be no scarcity and everyone would be a champion or everyone would be an author or everyone would be rich and successful. But it's almost that it's that it's hard is the whole point. Yeah, yeah.

And I do believe that us as humans are all fighters. You know, and I do believe that sometimes we shy away from facing our battles because we're afraid of the outcome, whether it is failure or success or that it's going to be too hard or that you're going to be embarrassed or that you can't. And so instead of trying, people just decide that they'd rather not see the outcome. And I think that is, you know, that's a shame because whether you win or lose, there is always something to be gained.

Yeah, I get this question a lot of people go like, what's the biggest obstacle that you've ever faced? And I always, I'm always struck by that question because I think it shows that we kind of think about these things as something you do once. When it's like every day is an obstacle, Asenica says, to live is to fight. Like every day you're waking up and shit does not go your way,

it's not easy, it's not the way you want it to be. That's the grind, right? Like I, because for me, like I like to run. And so one of the interesting things you'll hear from people is they're like, oh, are you training for a marathon or something? Like people can't even, they can't even conceive of doing a thing not for some arbitrary outcome. You know what I mean? Even just the, even just the ideas like, no, no, the grind is the grind is the challenge. Like I'm doing it for the grind. I like the grind of it. You know, honestly, if I'm being honest,

I think that that might be something I will struggle with when I'm done fighting. Because I've always had something in front of me, you know, like I've always had a goal in front of me. And so when I'm done fighting, it's like, okay, now it's going to be up to me to put something in front of me to overcome, you know, so, because when you fight, you sign up the dotted line, boom, that's the date.

You gotta get ready. You close the door behind you and you can't get out. Yeah. So, but yeah, I don't know. I wish that more people would just not be so afraid of the outcome and to just go for it, you know. Do the contracts motivate you? Like is the idea of like, I have my next fight

and that's the thing. Is that part of what keeps you going? I think it's helpful to have a date. So it's kind of not, it's not in the gray. It's like this is said in stone. This is gonna happen. Regardless if you're ready or not, it's gonna happen. So for me, it's helpful.

And like I was telling you, I think that once I'm done fighting, the struggle for me is going to be, okay, putting a goal in front of me and being self-motivated to hit the deadline and not let it just pass and to not just push it out and to not just kind of let life happen. Cause it does. Yeah, I experienced that as a writer, it's like there's a certain benefit.

Like so people go, should you self publish, should you traditional publish? One of the benefits of traditionally publishing is that you sign the line. And if you don't deliver it, they come take the money back, you know, and it's a bad thing. And there is a certain, it's like when you are self-publishing

or when you're not training for a marathon, it actually requires more discipline because you have to wake up every day and do it for no urgency. And that creation of urgency can be really difficult. So it's funny because I was saying not having a goal, but one of the reasons I always try to sell my next book before the book comes out is, so it's like, it would be the equivalent for you.

It's like you've lined up your next fight before you know whether you've won or lost this one. So you can't psych yourself out based on the outcome. Yeah, it's already said and done, and you just got to go. And I'm fascinated with the idea of like a fighting weight, right? Like no other profession do you have to be like, do they go like you have done the training or you haven't done the training right?

Obviously making weight doesn't determine whether you win the fight or not, but there's like a qualification level in the NFL. It's like once you sign your contract and you're on the team like yes, sure you can get cut, but they're not like check. There's no demonstrable proof whether you've been training or not. But I love the metaphor of a fighting weight. Like one of the reasons I'm always, always try to be working on a book is I have this fear that if I stop writing, it will be too hard to start again. You know what I mean? Like getting out of shape and then having to get back in shape must be insane. Well, yeah. And I think I'm just speaking for myself in this case, but I'm kind of like an all-or-nothing type person.

So I kind of shoot myself in the foot in that sense, because I get into incredible shape. And I've been fighting for over 13 years. And so each time I get better and better, but I still, it's either all or nothing for me. So I get an incredible shape. I have a great diet, I have exercise, and I'm so laser focused on my fight. And then when the fights over, it's like,

like a sigh of relief, and I just take all this pressure off my shoulders, and then I go eat a big burger and pound down a beer. And I'm like, what am I doing to myself? But so really definitely understanding that balance has been something that I've had to, you know, force myself to really try to overcome on my own. But for sure, like you said, I always tell people making weight for a fight was like the

right of passage, like you said. It's like, once you make the weight, then I know that I'm serious about this fight and so is my opponent. Like, and so to me, that's the right of pass is just a fight before the fight. And so like, it's a mental fight for sure because you don't wanna be there. You're like, why am I doing this

when I'm just going to replenish myself as soon as I get off the scale. But for me, it's that one extra mental push that I need right before I go into battle. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just gonna end up on page six or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellesai.

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That expression is the fight before the fight is a beautiful one because i feel like that's sort of what life is right it's like there's all the things you think you want to do. And so you focus on that. But really, there's, there's the, the buy-in beforehand, which is like the making waiter. In my case, it's like, I want to write a book. But if I haven't researched the material, then I'm not going to make the wait, right? You know what I mean? I'm going to say, I'm right, but I'm disqualified before, before it even starts. So it's this tricky thing of like, what is the, what is the, what's the, the entry fee to do whatever it is that you're trying to do? And a lot of people just aren't willing to pay it. Yes. Because it's hard, you know, and, and, and like I was just thinking about that today, I was like, man, I'm gonna get, get on the show with Ryan. And what do I think about, you know,

everything that's going on in life and this and that, and I guess just for me being a fighter, I've realized that I'd rather be a participant than a spectator. I love watching and seeing other people, but for sure, for myself, I would rather be participating, and I think that you get the most out of participating. You know, even like even if it's reading a book, like when I read a book, I can, I can take from it what I want to take from it, you know? Well, that's the theater Roosevelt thing, like the man in the arena. That that's what counts, right? Like are you in the arena or not in the arena? And I think a lot of people spend their lives not in the arena. It's easy to be the critic.

It's easy to have opinions, but where are you actually putting your ass on the line? And I honestly feel for the most part, when you do put your ass on the line, you're less of a critic because you know what it takes to get through all of that stuff. You're more supportive, you're more sympathetic, like I don't know how else to explain it

other than that. I will always have respect for my opponents because I know what it takes to step inside the octagon. Yeah, there's a kinship for people who have crossed the desert, whatever that desert is, right? Like you either find the octagon, you've published a book, you've been through some public scandal, you've fought in a war. Like once you get to the other side, there's a certain thing that only people who have done that know. And yeah, it helps make you feel connected with people.

Do you think that one of the reasons it does that is, it suppresses ego because you know how hard it is. Oh yeah, absolutely. It, that's why I like fighting too because it can humble you real quick. Like we always have these guys come into the gym and they're all like tied it up being muscular and they're just, they're really boastful

and they think they're hot shit. And, you know, they get put in their place real quick because there's always somebody bigger and better than you. You know? Yeah, the gyms I've been into, you tend to find that the best people, especially in martial arts. Maybe basketball's different in other sports,

but I've always been amazed at how like the real killers are the quietest and the friendliest. You know what I mean? Like if you walked into a Brazilian jujitsu gym, it would be intimidating and scary never been there before, but the person who would probably come over and talk to you and help you and introduce you to it

would probably not be another new person, but it'd be the person who is the most trained or experienced. There's like, there's supposed to a humility and an empathy that comes, I think, from being really good at a really hard thing. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I think at least the school that I'm at with the Jiu Jitsu, they pair up the highest ranking students with the lowest ranking students because they need that balance. The highest ranking student has a control and the humility in order to kind of tame

this new green fighter that's just coming in and trying to show the world how good they are. Yeah, the few times that I've ever been hurt rolling have come from people who are not very good. You know, who are who are like at or a little bit below my level that felt like they had something to prove. And that's like the most dangerous thing. It is. It's the most scary thing to watch like two amateurs sparring because it's like a car wreck. It's just like especially when you know you have professional fighters on the sidelines watching you because now they're like oh now their energies all ramped up and they're ready to go and they like you said they want to prove themselves you know.

Well I think that's what so dangerous about ego is that it's not, it's thinking about everything but what's important, right? So it's like, you're like, you think that like, oh, if I don't do well, it says something about me. No, hurting someone, because you're a fucking idiot. That says something about you. And so you get sort of focused, you end up flailing about, and I imagine they hurt themselves more often

than other people as well. Oh yeah, and I'm not gonna lie there, there's still times where in areas, certain areas of different martial arts, where I am still very green, you know, where I will be rolling with my professor and just by the pace of my breath, he can tell that I have no control over what I'm doing.

So he'll just remind me, like, breathe, slow down. Like, this isn't a fight, you can calm down, so it's like I said, that's why I love fighting. It's so humbling to know that, honestly, feel like the more I learn, the less I know. Like It's so humbling to know that I honestly feel like the more I learn, the less I know. Like it's just... To go back to where we started, this idea of like, you know, the mind having to sort of rule over the body. I think there's a part of that in fighting as I was just, I went to your hunting last week. And there's this interesting thing when you do anything like fighting or hunting or whatever where all these sort of primal instincts or biological, you know, whether it's hormones or

adrenaline or whatever. And you realize like, oh, like, my body wants to do one thing. My emotions want to do one thing. But what I actually need to do is a different thing. And that's where that sort of mastery of oneself becomes so important. So your point about like, oh, my body wants to be worked up and nervous and rushed, but my mind has to actually stop and slow that whole thing down. That's what training is all about. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when you went hunting, what did you feel that you were? Every time I go hunting, it doesn't and I almost never hunt for anything dangerous. Like this is a deer and I'm in a deer stance

And there's no chance they're gonna get hurt But like when when it comes It every time and I think it gets less each time But every time you get that sort of flutter of adrenaline like this is the hunt like this is the thing and that I think There's a there's a there's a beauty in that because it's connecting you to a part of the human experience that we've been doing for hundreds of thousands of years. But then there's also a part where you know like that adrenaline isn't going to make me do this thing that I have to do well. Like if you're jerking all

over the place you're going to miss right you? You're going to pull the trigger too quickly or you're not going to do what you have to do. And so, you have to be able to do exactly what you said, which is breathe and relax and go to the, you have to revert to the training or you're going to end up in your excitement to do a thing, prevent yourself from doing it well. Yeah. Yeah. My husband tells me all the time it's not natural to stand in front of somebody when they're trying to take your head off. You know, like that fight or flight. It's natural to want to survive, to stay alive. And so you want it face somebody and fight them if you

were trying to survive. So you have to like physically train yourself to see these punches coming without flinching, without closing your eyes, without backing up. And it almost seems kind of backwards, but it's like the safest place to be is in front of somebody with your hands up looking at them versus pulling away, which a lot of people do like, would they go to kick or punch, they do it, and they pull themselves out at the same time. And they're putting themselves in more danger, thinking that they're more safe, but when they're really safe inside the fire.

Right, yeah, you wouldn't, you also wouldn't be observing any of these arbitrary rules if you have a real fight, right? So you have to, you have to take like what your body wants to do and mesh it up against with what the situation demands that you do. Yeah. Like it's like when you're golfing, right? You hit the golf ball. Your first instinct is to look up and see where the ball went,

which is how you end up jerking your swing. And so the real act of discipline and golf is not how hard you can hit the ball, but are you strong enough to keep your ego and curiosity from immediately following the ball? And, you know. I guess that's what I've been doing wrong all this time. I suck at golf and that's exactly why.

I'm like, boom, where to go? Right. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's just so funny. It's like you're almost all things, right? You're training yourself to do it in the most, in the least natural way. Even writing, right? Like you would never write.

You never speak the way that you write, but you, if you want to reach an audience, that's what you have to do. Yeah. Yeah. So what is your, what is your like training regimen look like? Like what, let's do this. What is the difference between like Michelle training for a fight and Michelle not training for a fight?

Are those very different routines? I would say so because, you know, I've worked so many hats, you know, I'm a wife, I'm a mom, I get a business owner and a professional fighter. And so when I'm in wife, I'm a mom, I'm a business owner, and a professional fighter. So when I'm in fight camp, I put a lot of those things on the back burner because that's not my priority. My priority is to win the fight. You have to be like laser focused in order to do so.

Super strenuous training regimen. I probably train anywhere between three and five times a day. So it's like, I probably do three to five runs a week, two times strength and conditioning. And then every morning we have group practices, which consist of big glove sparring, MMA sparring, wrestling, and MMA sparring. And then we have technical training for Jujitsu

three times a week, and then I do probably three or four private sessions for standup training. And then probably once or twice, well, once I meet with my sports psychologist physically, and then every day, I'm farkin', you know, getting dinner ready and doing stuff my mom would do. But when I'm at a camp, I'm probably training five times a week, and really taking care of other things that I did put on the back burner working on the business trying to try to build my brand trying to

you know connect the dots of things outside of fighting that will kind of help me in the future. I was talking to right Thompson the sports writer he writes for ESPN he's amazing and he's profiled like Tiger Woods and I was talking to Wright Thompson, the sports writer, Wright's three S-Bandys amazing, and he's profiled like Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. And we were talking about, like, is it possible to be world class at something and not neglect those other obligations? You know what I mean?

And I feel like one of the things that I really strive to do is to be balanced in the set. Like if you told me I could be a much better writer, but be a much worse father, I don't think I would take that trade, but a lot of people would, you know? And so sometimes I wonder, is that fear? Not, because we're obviously such an easy part,

but the point is like, is my lack of singular focus leaving potential gains on the table? And I'm afraid of doing that. And I'm actually just using family as an excuse. Or is that actually the real struggle to be able to do all these things well? I guess it just depends on where your priorities lie. Like if do you want to balance to life or do you want to be, you know, a master, you

know, because there's this book that I read and he, it's called Relentless and he talks about that. He talks about how when you, when you look at any champion, the reason why they're champions is because they have all of their focus in this one thing, but in doing so, the reason why they're champions is because they have all of their focus in this one thing, but in doing so, the things other things in their life fall off the way side because all of their focus is there, you know. And that is something that I've always struggled with. My dad used to always give me so much grief when I was younger because he was like, you put so much on your plate and you think you can carry it all and eventually things just start rolling off or you just drop the whole plate

completely. You know? And so that's why I think for me is like, it's important to understand that when I'm in fight camp, that that is my singular, you know, priority. And I have an amazing team behind me in order to let me do that. My husband is super understanding, you know, my mother helps a lot. I have coaches that, you know, are here for me, teammates. And so we make it work, but I also do have a sense of guilt because there are things that I let fall behind that I would love to be responsible for.

Like, you know, my daughter's schoolwork and, you know, helping her do this and do that and working on the business and the finances and all that stuff. So when I'm done fighting, I shift my focus to that. Yeah, I think it's about balance and that doesn't mean you do everything mediocrely, but it's, you know, like so Aristotle talks about the golden mean, right? He's like sort of between fear and recklessness is courage, right? And so courage is actually the middle ground. Like we tend to think like settling in the middle is bad or that the middle ground is the less good way, but actually, when you say that way, you're like, yeah, of course, there's something beyond courage that's actually dangerous. And sometimes I think about that as far as like drive or wanting to be graded something

or professional ambition is it's like, there's some people don't have enough. And then some people maybe have so much that it, that it actually is kind of more of a curse than a blessing. You know, I mean, like, like, there's plenty of people who have won two or three NBA championships that seem to be normal people, you know, you know, you don't, you don't have to be Michael Jordan to be great. And maybe maybe actually Michael Jordan's greatness has nothing to do with that extremist. Maybe it's also all these other factors. So we can learn, we can sometimes learn the wrong lesson from these people too. Yeah. I mean, I just, just listening to your most recent book, that's kind of what I got out of it was a lot of these like, you know, philosophers, I feel like kind of like, got some of them, they got ahead of themselves right.

And so it was just like the momentum just took them and it just like now they're on a roll and they couldn't get out They couldn't take themselves out of the situation and it was it was to their demise a lot of the time, you know No, that's a that's a great question. It's like are you in charge of your career or is your career in charge of you? Mm-hmm And I guess you see that with fighters like some fighters who don don't know when to retire, some fighters who don't know which fights, you know what I mean? You just, if you're driven, you can just say yes to everything. And it's actually, it takes more discipline to be strategic

or to say, I really wanna do it, but I'm gonna wait. Or that's actually a harder thing to do. Yeah, and I would say like, especially in the MMA world, that's where it is. That's where it lies a lot of the times. And I'm not sure if it's because what the eagle comes in and in that fighter spirit that says, I'll take a fight anywhere, anytime. I don't care who it is. I don't care who it is. Instead of pausing and taking a moment to look at your fight career as an actual career, because your fight career is so short-lived, how are you going to maximize this space

in order for it to launch you into your next chapter of life? And don't just think instantly and actually allow instantly and actually allow, you know, your choices to be strategic in the long run without feeling like you're sacrificing your, I don't know how to explain it because a lot of fighters will say, well, I'm a true fighter, so I'll take I'll take a fight anytime. Well, yes, I'm a true fighter too, but I also understand that there's there's strategy to this whole thing, you know? People who have sort of that,

that combative personality, like fighters in general struggle with that. It's like, should you get an every argument possible or should you only get in arguments over the things that matter, right? Like you can't, the church show as a line is like, you'll never get anywhere if you stop

and throw rocks at every dog that barks. You have to keep going. You have to go to where you're wanting to go. But people are going to be coming after you or there's incidents or things like, you have to know, I mean, I not to get too political, but this is clearly something Donald Trump struggles with, right? And Hillary Clinton baited him in that first, in one of those early debates, too, where it's like, if you're someone who can never lose a contest and has to dominate in every situation, it becomes extremely hard for you not to fall for traps

or not to get sucked into stuff that you should actually be above. Because you're just emotionally invested in it. Yeah. Yeah, you have to win. You want to win more than you want to, you know, I understand. I totally understand that.

Gosh, whatever was I think, it's something, it's like something my coach said, it's along the same lines, because he was saying, you know, gosh, I forgot who it was that he was talking about, but he was talking about a guy that was in battle and was getting shot with these arrows, but he kept coming forward. And he didn't pull the arrows out because if he would pull the arrows out, he would

bleed out and he wouldn't be able to finish his battle. So it's like, you gotta let those shots come and you gotta keep going forward. Yeah, especially in life when momentum is so important. And if you're, if every time you stop to deal with this or every time you stop to get sucked into that, what you're losing is your forward momentum, which is really the important place. It must be hard though, you're right. Fighting is such a strange career. And it's over so quickly, how do you think strategically about where you want to go when it also feels like you have a window that's closing?

Yeah, I mean it I think it's a hard thing to balance and it's it's also one of those things too like it's such a such a dangerous Sport that you can't be one foot in and one foot out because that's when you get hurt, you know, so you have to be be one foot in and one foot out, because that's when you get hurt. So you have to be 100% committed, but you also have to have a plan. You have to have a plan. If that plan doesn't come out how it does, at least you put something together.

No, Eisenhower has this great line. He says plans are worthless, but planning is everything. Okay, yeah. And I think that's similar. I mean, it's, you know, Tyson's line, like everybody has a plan to get punched in the face. You have to be able to pivot and change that plan. But if you walk into the ring or into a new profession or to life without some plan,

you're just going to be reeling all the time and you're going to be reactive all the time because you don't, I, when people talk about doing books and they're like, I'm going to sit down and figure it out. It's like, how will you know if you got there? You can't sit. Nobody gets in the car and says, I got to go somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I'll figure it out while I'm driving. That's a great way to get lost. Or go shooting without a target.

What are you going to shoot at? It's so paradoxical. You have to know the target. You have to know what you're doing. Then, Zen and the Art of Artery, it's also the target is worthless. Don't think about the target. Yet, you actually have to have both of these totally contradictory philosophies in your head at the same time. That's something that I was able to learn.

I would say in my last couple of fights, I remember talking to my coach, Coach Jackson, and telling him how the pressure was getting to me. I was so close to the top to fight for the belt. And all I needed to do was to win this fight. If I won this fight, I was going to be able to fight the bit for the belt. And this was my moment, like I'm towards the end of my career

and everything is riding on this one fight. And so every day when I got up to go train, that was what was on my mind was like I have to win this fight, I have to beat her. And having that type of mentality, it stifled me. I was rigid, I was in, it was coming from a place of eagerness instead of a place of like wanting. And, um, and I ended up losing a fight. I remember talking to my coach about it. And he was like, he was like, you have to think about yourself as if you were the son.

And he explained it in a way that I am, if I'm the sun, I am everything to all these planets, these planets orbit me, and I give life to these planets. But in the bigger scheme of things, how many, you know, trillions of, of, of sons are there in the galaxy. So you are everything and nothing all at the same time. That's, that's absolutely beautiful. I love that. It's like if you're doing a book and you're like, okay, I have to sell this many copies to hit this spot in the list,

and then I have to do this, and I have to do this. I try to remind myself, it's like, even though that's not taking a lot of mental energy, it's taking one percent of my mental energy, and the margin for air here is probably smaller than one percent. So the idea, it's almost arrogant to think, like in your case, it's like, so I gotta beat this person,

so then I can beat this person, and then if I do that, you're getting ahead of yourself is really what you're doing, which you can't afford to do. Yeah. Yeah, and by putting it in that way, it kind of put my mind at ease, because it allowed me to train my hardest, because I was, I was a cent,

like I was trying to achieve greatness, but at the same time, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Like, so, like it take that pressure off, because at the end of the day, like doesn't matter. Like, so, like, it takes that pressure off because at the end of the day, like, we just all gonna be dust. We're, we're, it's also the way I'm hearing it is like, you already are great. So really, the training is helping you realize your greatness

as opposed to if I do X, Y, and Z, then, then I will have a chance to be great. It's like, no, I actually just have to be what I already am, and what I already am is enough. And that's a much more confident place to come from also. Absolutely. Absolutely. And a true or place to come from. Like, it's no longer like approving. Like, I'm no longer trying, like you were saying, trying to be somebody or to do from. Like it's no longer like approving. Like I'm no longer trying, like you were saying,

trying to be somebody or to do something like I am just being me. And when you can be in the present moment, that that's the best place to be in a fight is in the zone in the present, you know? Yeah, yeah, you have to... Yeah, and that's when I wrote my book on stillness to me, that idea, what that thing you're talking about from your coaches, that's getting you wrote my book on stillness to me that idea what that Thing you're talking about from your coaches. That's getting you to a place of stillness where instead of feeling eagerness or desperation or fear or Ego or any of those things which are not helpful motions You're replacing it with like a centeredness and a fullness which is much stronger

Yeah motion to come from. Yeah, absolutely. And it's easier said than done for sure. It's easier said than done. It's like it's a constant battle. And even if you've conquered it once, does it mean that it's going to overtake you again? You know? Yeah, it's like you could have conquered it every day except for three seconds before you went into the fight Yeah, and and that's what it's it's can you do it when it counts is what matters Yeah, like that those those are the minutes that count That's the hard part I my last question for you is about that idea of coaching I think people probably think that a profession like yours

is a solitary profession, but you talked about being on a team and you talked about having a coach. How does that work? I think it is an individual sport. Like at the end of the day, when I step inside the act, it is me and my opponent.

And it is up to me to make the right decisions in order to be victorious. But everything leading up to that point requires a team. And I have an amazing team. I have a Giu-Jitsu coach, I have an MMA coach, I have a stand-up coach, and coach Jackson is kind of like, he is kind of, I would say he is a philosopher. Like he makes fighting, he makes fight problems like into concepts that you can grasp across the board, whether it's standup or ground or mentality in or outside of the cage.

So that's what Coach Jackson's really good at, Coach Wink, his stand up guy. And it's funny because Coach Jackson is very compassionate and talkative and very, he sees things very differently. And Coach Wink is very cold and harsh, and just straight into the point. And it's great because they balance each other out.

And my husband, you know, he's a real pivotal part in my fights because he is always with me. So he sees when I'm burnt out, he sees when I'm overworked, he sees when I'm not over, he sees when I'm overworked, he sees when I'm not overworked, he sees it. He knows if I'm pretending to be, to not want to do work or if I really can't do work. And it all matters. It all matters. And then I have a sports psychologist who works with me to get myself mentally prepared for the fight.

And it all has to align, like you said. Well, and it's funny, like I imagine as you've gotten better, you've actually gotten more coaches. Like, so it's this weird thing where as you get better and better at the thing, you actually find yourself more and more of a student. Like Epic Titus says, you can't learn that, would you think you already know? And it's said like, the greatest enemy to progress is conceit. It's like the more you think you've got it, the more complacent you get. Whereas if as you get better, you bring more and more people along with you who show you

what you don't know, who are adding new elements to your game, then the opposite is happening. There's always something to reach for, always something to struggle with and get better from. Yeah, you have to humble yourself and always be the student. I was just funny that you said, I was just telling my daughter this because I've been helping her with her homework and she thinks she knows the answer when obviously the answer is wrong. And I was like, I read it. I told her, I said only a full knows everything is what I told her, you know, and she was

like, what? I was crazy, but I was like, it's okay to not know the answer as what I explained to her. I said, if you do know the answer, that's good. But don't let your pride get the best of you if you don't know the answer. I'd rather you actually listen, open your ears, and actually try to consume something that is going to have you understand it. You know?

Yeah, I mean, the entire system of science, the discipline of science is around the idea of like, I don't know, I'm gonna put a hypothesis out there and then I'm gonna get it kind of, I'm going to go try to disprove that hypothesis. So progress comes from humility and curiosity together. Yeah, and I also told her too, I said, I love that you're, that this is your guess of what it is. And I think it's great that you have an opinion of what it is.

But just because it's your opinion doesn't make it right. Like, you know, like it's your opinion and that's a great starting point. And then we got it, we got to grow from there, you know what I mean. And so, yeah, for sure, like I was telling you earlier, the more I learn, the more I feel like I don't know. And I tell that I'm struggling for a while to own my own space and I'm talking to my sports psychologists about that because I grew up in the traditional Asian home and my father was a military background.

And so there was always order, even in martial arts, there's order. White belt, yellow belt, purple belt. Like these belts, there's a pecking order. And I just always felt like because I hadn't become the champ of the UFC yet, that I didn't have the right to be confident.

Sure. That I didn't have the right to walk amongst the greats, to be spoken amongst the greats. And I was telling him that, telling him that, that I needed to do this, this, and this in order to be called a champion in order to feel like I've earned it. And he looked to me and he said, when Michael Jordan is considered the greatest of all time.

When he was at his peak, do you think that there were still things that he needed to work on on a daily basis? And it was like, of course, he probably a daily basis. And I was like, of course, you know, he probably, he probably practiced even more. And he was like, so why can't you be great and still be working on yourself? Right. And feel good about yourself as you're doing it. Yeah. No, that's, that's right. It's, um, it's a, like, obviously, anytime you're doing something new, you're not something new,

you're not gonna know whether you can do it or not, because you've never done it before. But you have to be able to draw confidence from what you've done before and from your sort of inherent inequalities, you know, your work ethic and your creativity and your perseverance and your endurance. So that to me, that's what helps me hold my head up. I it's not, oh, I've sold this many books

or I've done this or that. It's like, hey, like I know I don't quit. I don't your job. Sorry. That's amazing. No, I know I don't quit shit. I know I learn quickly. You know what I mean?

The confidence is on the attributes, not the achievements. Mm-hmm, absolutely. This is Douglas. That's amazing. Well, that's the perfect place to stop. Douglas clearly, it's Douglas' time. And is that a great game? Yeah.

I love it. Well, Michelle, thank you so much. I'm glad we finally got to meet. We'll have to do this again in person when that stuff becomes possible again. Yes, absolutely. I think that would be great. As I'm listening to your most recent book,

I'm thinking that a Netflix series is in order. I'll take it. Yeah, we'll have to make that happen. Okay. All right, see ya. Have a good one. You too. Bye. Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. It's incredible to think that these episodes have been listened to more than 3 million times.

If you could do this a huge favor and just leave a quick review of the podcast on iTunes, Google Play, or whatever you're listening to this on, we'd really appreciate it. The reviews help with visibility and help bring stoicism to even more people. Thanks again, talk soon.