The Daily Stoic - Ultramarathon Runner Dean Karnazes on the Virtue of Self-Discipline | And Now We Do What Is Necessary

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

Ryan reads today’s meditation and talks to Ultramarathon runner and author Dean Karnazes about his new book A Runner's High: My Life in Motion, his fascination with how far the human body can be pushed, finding the balance between pushing yourself and reaching your limits, the relation between writing and endurance sports, and more. Dean Karnazes is an American ultramarathon runner, and author of Ultramarathon Man: Confessions of an All-Night Runner, which details ultra endurance running for the general public. Dean is a frequent speaker and panelist at many running and sporting events worldwide.Streak is a fully embedded workflow and productivity software in Gmail that lets you manage all your work right in your inbox. Streak gives you tools for email tracking, mail merges, and snippets to save time and scale up your email efficiency. Sign up for Streak today at Streak.com/stoic and get 20% off your first year of their Pro Plan.The Jordan Harbinger Show is one of the most interesting podcasts on the web, with guests like Kobe Bryant, Mark Manson, Eric Schmidt, and more. Listen to one of Ryan's episodes right now (1, 2), and subscribe to the Jordan Harbinger Show today.Athletic Greens is a custom formulation of 75 vitamins, minerals, and other whole-food sourced ingredients that make it easier for you to maintain nutrition in just a single scoop. Visit athleticgreens.com/stoic to get a FREE year supply of Liquid Vitamin D + 5 FREE Travel Packs with subscription. ***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@daily_stoicFollow Dean Karnazes: Homepage: https://ultramarathonman.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ultramarathon/Facebook: https://facebook.com/DeanKarnazesTwitter: https://twitter.com/DeanKarnazes See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wundery's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. And now we do what is necessary. This is a time of uncertainty. It is a time of change. It is a time when options have been eliminated when hard choices are being made. What does a stoic do when they've lost their job when their income is dropped by half when they've had to bury a sibling or a grandparent or shutter of business, close out a dream. They do what is necessary. This is a constant theme in Marcus Aurelius' meditations.

Here was a man supporting a large family with a difficult job facing a plague, facing enemies, facing his own ill health. Yet time and time again he reminds himself, my priority is to be good, my duty is to serve. I will not waver, I will not quit, I will not be heard complaining, I will keep going unswerving to the finish line. In his time, this is what it meant to be a man or to be a Roman, but the Stoics knew that there was nothing gendered or nationalistic about those four critical virtues of courage and justice and moderation and wisdom. There's nothing gender or nationalistic about those four critical virtues of courage, injustice,

and moderation, and wisdom. There's nothing ancient about them either because they are what you are called to do today, because the answer to that question you and so many people are forced to ask yourself, what do you do? Well, you must do what is necessary. You must be brave, good, wise, and self-discipline today and always. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stewart Podcast. As you know, I am a long-time runner. I've been running pretty much every day since, I don't know, fifth grade.

That's when I started running. maybe earlier, third or fourth grade. I ran track in middle school, ran track across country and high school. I didn't take it super seriously. It wasn't until college that I really got into it. And now I run almost every single day. If you've read any of my books, well then you have experienced the benefits, I guess, of me running because

I do a lot of my writing running. I tend to work in the morning, try to write, not always successful, but when I go for my run in the afternoons usually, although this morning I ran in the morning, I tend to work out a lot of my problems on the road. And there's a lot of history of runners and writers, but also going back to the ancient Stoics, there is a long connection between running, writing and thinking.

Not only does Cenica say that we should take wandering walks because walks help relax the mind, a mind that is too focused, Seneca says, will break. Let me read you this passage from lies of the Stoics about Chrysipus. It gives you some connection between the history of Stoicism and Running. What is the connection between philosophy and running? There is none. But between Stoicism and philosophy of endurance and inner strength of

transcending one's limits and of measuring one's self against a high internal standard distance running Here the overlap is profound particularly for a young man like chrysipus solely Celicia competing for the first time in an Olympic distance race like the delicos. I'm so bad at these words I'm I'm just not even going to apologize for how bad I am. A three mile race for which there is no modern equivalent. This was not a three mile loop like a

modern cross country course or even a track event like the 5,000 meters, but instead consisted of approximately 24 stadium lengths done almost like windsprints on a basketball court. It's not hard to imagine this stoke mind forming as its molder, Crasipus ran as hard as he could back and forth, not only trying to beat other racers but trying to convince himself to keep going as he heaved for air and his brain told him to stop. As he jostled for the lead in a pack of runners, he was unconsciously developing the ethical framework that would direct his life in the future of the stoke school. Banners in a race ought to compete and strive to win as hard as they can,

Christypus would later say, but by no means should they trip their competitors or give them a shove. So too in life it is not wrong to seek after the things useful in life, but to do so while depriving someone else is not just. But mostly it would have been on the long training runs by himself through the coastal plans of his homeland and what is today southern Turkey. Crescipus prepared himself for the challenges that life had in store for him and for the feats of intellectual and physical endurance that philosophy would demand. So anyways the connection between stoicism and running, particularly endurance running goes way back, and my guest today, Dean Karnasis,

has pushed his body beyond all limitations that you can imagine. He's run 50 marathons in all 50 states on 50 consecutive days. He's run across Death Valley in the middle of the summer. He's run a marathon to the South Pole. He's competed in 200 mile relay races, solo. He's the winner of the award for the world's toughest foot race.

He's run the Badwater Ultra Marath. He's won the Four Deserts Challenge. He's raced in the hottest driest, windiest coldest places on Earth. I think most interestingly connected to what we're going to talk about today. He's also run from Athens to Sparta, eating and running like an ancient Spartan in his ancestral homeland. I don't know, just incredible athlete, pusher of human limits. And the author of many, many book, he's written a book, as I said, about his journey from Athens to Sparta called the Road to Sparta, reliving the ancient battle on epic run that inspired

the world's greatest foot race. He's written a book called 50-50, Secrets I Learned Running 50 Marathons in 50 Days. He's written the book Ultra Marathon Man Confessions of an All-Mite Runner, and his new book, A Runner's High, My Life in Motion, is out now. And we have this awesome conversation about pushing oneself, about limits, about listening to that little voice inside you, but also not listening to that little voice inside you. Talk about reading. Talk about challenges. Talk about self-discipline. Talk about addiction. Anyways, it was a great conversation. I was really excited to have it. Check out Dean's new book, A Runners High, My Life in Motion. You can also go

to his website, ultramarathonman.com. You can follow him on Instagram at ultra marathon. His screen name is ultra marathon. And here's my conversation with Dean. I hope you like it. And go for a run or a swim or a bike ride while you listen, perhaps. But if you can't do that, like I can't. I don't like to listen to talking during my workouts. Do it later, definitely do it. Talk soon. All right, so my first question for you is, as someone who's been a long time runner, do you find that the physical benefits

are greater than the mental benefits or the other way around? I go back and forth as to whether the running is, I'm almost indifferent to the physical benefits But I go back and forth as to whether the running is, I'm almost indifferent to the physical benefits of running. And to me, it's almost entirely a mental endeavor at this point. That's a funny question to open with,

because my 100% Greek, and I don't delineate between the two. The physical and the mental to me are, they're one and the two. The physical and the mental to me are, you know, they're one and the same. You know, if I was to say which one benefits more, it's hard to distinguish. I think, you know, physical health leads to mental health and mental health helps you get more physically active. Yeah, well, I would imagine too, in your case, it might even be a stronger case for the mental benefits in that there's probably something slightly unhealthy

about the extreme feats that you put your body through. And, but I imagine there's also a part of you that would lose your mind if you were to stop doing them. I mean, I think the mental benefits for day to day living are pretty pronounced, but as well as the mental benefits of pushing yourself to the edge and over the edge, I think are also something important to me. The Oracle of Delphi said, know that yourself self, and how do you get to know that I self? Well, to me, you push that I self. And in these extreme conditions,

and there's a race I do called the Western State 200 mile endurance run, and they say, you run the first 50 miles with your legs, and the next 50 miles with your mind. I love that because, yeah, I think when people hear that idea of know that I self, it's sort of like, sit down and listen to that little voice inside you, but I think one of the things you learn running, particularly as you push distance, or if you run somewhere where it's real hot, you kind of

learn that that voice is a fucking liar and you shouldn't listen to it. I mean, no, I think I can think of no other sport that holds a mirror up to you the way running does. You see through all your falsities. There's no lying to yourself when you're running. Yes, but it's weird because that voice is lying to you in the sense that that voice is like you should quit, you should stop, you can't go any further. This isn't working. Also I love like sort of on the more day to dayness of it. There's that voice before you get up to run, before you put on your shoes, that maybe says you won't enjoy this.

It's too hard, don't do it. But in fact, I feel like I've never left my house for a run and come back and then I regret doing that. Almost invariably, I'm glad I pushed through and got to that place, but if you just listen to the voice, if you just sort of know that superficial self, you can actually prevent you from doing a lot of good stuff. Well, you know, some days, when I don't feel like running, you know, I basically say this is really going to suck and I'm going to enjoy it.

Like I'm really going to dive into the low and you know, experience the full emotional range of something that's horrible. And let's face it, you know, not every run is pleasurable. But no, yeah, but to your point, I've never once come back from a run feeling worse than I did before I ran Although and I might be jumping ahead. I was so much to talk to you about but I do feel like Part of what makes you great and I think anyone great at what they do is that sort of drive The pushes past the resistance that ignores, you know, the voice that says stop it, the self-discipline to sort of not just do the marathon, but to do the marathon of life of sort of doing it every day, right, to not quit, to stick with the practice routine,

to stick with the training regimen, et cetera. Isn't there also this tricky thing to go back to this idea of the voice, which is that sometimes you have to blow past the voice because the voice is lying. Other times, you have to listen to the voice because the voice is telling you that if you push any further, you're about to get hurt. So how do you balance that tension between pushing and listening? I think, Ryan, I think you're asking the wrong guy that question. I've literally pushed myself into exhaustion. I've collapsed on the roadside from not knowing where that line is. You know when you start seeing stars and you know in your extremity start to tingle

maybe that's a good sign that you should back it down. Do you have kids? I do. I have two kids. So maybe that's another good place for this tension, right? It's like you can push yourself very hard, but then that same virtue can become a vice because you have trouble listening to other, I'm not saying you do, but it can, the double edge sort of the drive of pushing past the resistance is, how do you know when to stop? How do you know when to listen? How do you know sort of moderation even within the drive and the commitment?

In the MBA, they're working on load management, for instance, because so often, injuries are caused by overtraining, by pushing past those reservations. And then this is also true, I think, with teammates, with children, you know, like sort of, how do you find balance within the insanity? Well, I mean, I think balance is somewhat of a misdirected goal. I think I've found a state of harmonious imbalance. Okay.

You know, let's face it, when, you know, when you're living a life to its fullest, it's pretty frenetic, especially in our society. There are a lot of moving pieces and, you know, not everything is in balance, but I think that if you can find harmony in the imbalance, that's a better approach. I think we live in an imbalance, you know, very unbalanced society. Sure. You know, unless you're a monk and go, you know, often live in the hills, you're going to have to navigate through it. And it's hard to keep that balance when, you know, everything is so disrupted around you. I think that's right.

And it's also hard to be great at anything and be balanced, right? Because to be great requires an obsessive commitment to one thing, usually at the expense of some other things. Yeah, I mean, I think that every ultra runner has a fanatical drive. What else would push you to go run for 15, 20 hours non-stop unless you're pretty fanatical about it? What is that drive for you? What what makes you do that? You know I have a fascination with how far the human body can go to

kind of test and expand the limits of human endurance and I've consistently proven to myself that you know I can go further than I thought I could and you know maybe I'm better than I thought I was. You know when someone someone initially told me about a hundred miles foot race, I didn't believe it. I thought there was trickery involved. I thought, you know, there are hotels along the way or campgrounds. And the guy said, nobody, the guy goes off and you start running. And you stop when you cross the finish line, we totally is within 24 hours.

And I simply couldn't get my head around the idea of running 100 continuous miles. I didn't like running a mile and I didn't like driving a hundred miles. But when I went and did it, you know, I proved to myself that, you know, maybe fewer things are impossible than what you thought. Is that what's on the other side? Like what sort of epiphany or awareness or understanding comes from repeatedly pushing and breaking the sort of notions of what is or isn't possible? Well, I mean, you know, the other thing that I talk about this in my new book is, you can achieve in 24 hours of running what takes a month, a month of meditation. You slowly whittle down and pretty much

eviscerate the ego. And to me, that's very cleansing. And it's rare that we live in an kind of egoless state. But when you're running these great distances, you're just forced to be in the here and now. It's so commanding that you have to be in the present moment of time and just doing the very best you can in that instant. And to me, that's like a Zen life stay,

you can get into like a zone. And when you emerge from that, it's almost like a rebirth. I totally agree. People sometimes ask me like, do you meditate and I go, no, but I do run, bike, swim and walk a lot. I find that like sort of because I am frenetic and kind of high energy that meditation is very difficult and

doesn't sort of generate the results. But yeah, I've never gone on a run and not come back in a more zen-like state than I was before I left. In variably, I've slowed down, I've been present, I've unlocked something in my brain that I didn't even know I was working on. Often, I tend to wake up early, do my writing, and then it's on my runs in the afternoon that I unlock or solve the problems that I was stuck with, you know, several hours before writing because my subconscious got to work on it while I was on the bike or in the pool or on the trails. Yeah, I mean, there's a saying motion, stirs the emotion and I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I do a lot of my writing while I'm running, because to your point, we have some of our clearer thoughts when we're running, and you know,

I used to try to remember passages, you know, to write about it, and like when I was working on various books, and inevitably I'd forget something, so I just now dictate into my, into my phone, and then I put in the nearby and type up The you know the dictation and inevitably when I read them and it's like wow, this is pretty good Like this is a lot better than I ever could have produced you know just sitting on my my romp in front of a computer Totally. Yeah, I was at a pool once and about to get in and someone recognized me and said oh, you know you run holiday I just read your book and I said yeah, you know I wrote it in this me and said, oh, you know, you were on holiday, I just read your book and I said, yeah, you know, I wrote it in this pool. And they were like, what?

You know, that was inconceivable, but I'd read it doing laps. And I almost have my wife and I have sort of an unspoken agreement that like, when I come home from a run, like don't talk to me until I say something first because I don't do the dictation thing for you. I'm trying to get home and dry off enough, so I don't get sweat all over the pad or whatever.

I've got to get those thoughts onto the page as soon as possible before I lose them. But they're often some of the best stuff that ends up going into the books because yeah, it just, it came from a different place than trying to intentionally work at the computer. Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one that does it to my wife. It's so funny you're describing that because all the time that happens, I come through the door and I'm like, oh, let me just, let me just write down these couple things. And it's so funny to hear you do the same thing. You've done the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think it's actually, it's like do the same thing. You've done the same thing. Yeah.

Well, and I think it's actually, it's like, so the thing pops in your head and then you're like, I can't forget that. So then you're repeating it to yourself over and over. So, you know, I can do like maybe three or four things. Like if I come up with 10 things, like, I'm going to forget some of them, but it's almost like, it's the, it's almost like you're trying to remember a poem or something. Like you're, you're having to repeat it like a mantra to yourself. It's kind of just, there's almost something different than the spontaneity of writing

at the computer where you had to like get it into your mind as you're doing the rhythm of the steps. I don't know, there's something different about it. Yeah, well, I mean, I think we're not the only ones that have discovered this. You know, the row is notorious for walking around, like walking for 10, 12 hours. And, you know, I mean, again, I'll go back to the ancient Greek Greece, because it says a Greek.

Aristotle, he was known as the students were known as the parapetetics, because they literally, you know, they wandered around Athens as they were, you know, they wandered around Athens as they were, you know, as he was lecturing and as they were doing some of their deepest thinking. Well, I wanted to tell you, I don't know if you know this, but one of the early Stoics, this guy named Cricipus, actually was a runner. He was a distance runner, but in a weird way, I'll get the word wrong, but it's called it to look as DOLICHOS. And basically, it was a distance run, but you did like 24, 25 stadium length laps.

So it's three miles of essentially like mid-length wind sprints. And I just love the idea of a philosopher sort of also struggling with an extreme endurance sport. You know, because we tend to think of philosophers as intellectual people, even the throes, as these kind of softies, you don't think of Aristotle in his flowing robe, you don't think him, like, lacing up his sandals for 10 miles of walking. But actually, these were active people. And I think a lot of the best ideas come from some form of activity. Yeah, and I couldn't agree more.

I mean, Escalus, again, is another prime example. I mean, he fought in the Battle of Marathon. And he was an athlete. Escalus, again, is another prime example. I mean, he fought in the Battle of Marathon, and he was an athlete, and some of his thoughts were profound. Yeah, you realize that the sports metaphors, whether it's wrestling or boxing from the Stokes, are probably not, you know, sort of Monday morning, quarterbacking, like they actually did participate in those sports because

it was considered such an essential part of Greek and Roman life. Like, you to be a pen and ink philosopher for the Stoics was like, to mean that your philosophy wasn't worth anything. Like, it actually had to be tested in the ring or on the race course. And yeah, I don't know how many Harvard professors are also hardcore endurance athletes. But I imagine their philosophy would be better if they were. I agree. I mean, there's an African proverb.

When you pray, move your feet. And I just think there's something about movement that is inherent in the human animal. So speaking of this connection between history and running, talk to me about this Spartan race you did, a literal Spartan race, not an obstacle course race, but talk to me about the run from Sparta to Athens. Well, it was somewhat of a history project. I mean, I think a lot of people have run a marathon,

and certainly when the word marathon is pretty ubiquitous, but not everyone knows the meaning of marathon, or why the marathon is 26.2 miles. So I kind of wanted to delve into that. So I worked with the gentleman by the name of Professor Paul Cartlidge, and Dr. Cartlidge is from Cambridge University. He's one of the foremost authorities on ancient Greek culture. And he helped guide me through learning about this class of citizen in ancient Greek called the Dhromí, which basically means

day long runner. And these guys were professional foot messengers, and the Greeks realized in the Rocky and mountainous you know, terrain of southern Greece that a man, a human, could outrun a horse. And in fact, Fidipides, the original marathoner, is the translation of his name is Spir the horse, because you know, what, why kill a horse when you can just go have this guy run, Fidipity's, the original marathoner, is the translation of his name is Spare the Horse. Because, you know, what, why kill a horse when you can just go have this guy run, and, you know, deliver messages or gather intelligence from various city states. So, what happened before the final marathon is that he ran, Fidipity's ran from Athens to Sparta to recruit the Spartans into battle. The Persians had invaded at the Bay of Marathon.

And if you've ever seen the movie 300, you know who the most badass fighting force in ancient Greece was, that was the Spartans. So if it impede his ran 153 miles from Athens as a Spartan to tell the Spartans the Persians had invaded and the Athenians had re-enforcement. And to me, that in itself was an amazing endeavor. And this is 2,500 years ago.

So I went to recreate that. Like I said, I got to see how this guy possibly did it. Eating only figs, olives, cured meat, and the ancient athletes used to eat something called pestili, which was ground sesame seeds and honey. So I took on the endeavor of running this race, only eating those foods. And the other thing that just was so astounding to me is that I'm using a GPS. I'm following a road with a lot of markers and actual trails. He was self-navigating.

There was no GPS. And Herodotus said he arrived the day after setting out, which can be interpreted as 736 hours. So somehow a guy, 2,500 years ago, ran basically a grueling ultra-marathon and a time that's hugely respectable in this day and age. And did he do it in sandals or what kind of footwear do you think it was? It's pretty unclear. He could have been barefoot.

There's nothing in the record that talks about what he wore, but there is other references in the record talking about actually criminals getting away from the authorities by taking off their sandals and running barefoot. So it's unclear whether he wore leather sandals or just ran barefoot. And when you did it, did you do it in running shoes or what you do in it? No, I wore well designed, modern running shoes. Yeah, I actually, I ran a marathon barefoot to see what it was like. I ran the Silicon Valley marathon barefoot and I'll tell you what Ryan, I couldn't walk

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Yeah, I was just, I just walked out to throw out some trash and I, and where my office is and I don't wear shoes like in the office usually and, and I almost stepped on a rusty nail and I was like, you know what, even if the benefits of, of barefoot running are better, I think they invented shoes less for the health, less for the, the benefits of barefoot running are better. I think they invented shoes, less for the health, less for the benefits for running exactly, and more for the reality of the world that we live in. Yeah, well, the Professor Cardlett reminded me that people's feet back then were quite a bit different

than our feet. They had much tougher bottoms, so to turn. So our feet have become very tender as we revolve. So as you do something like that, I mean, one of my favorite things, I love this connection between running and history. One of my travel hacks is that whenever I get to a city, I sort of, a new city I get to a city, I sort of

a new city I haven't been to, I go and I run around it and I like to read all the historical signs or I'll find something like, oh, here's this famous statue and it's six miles from my hotel. So I'll run there, look at the statue and then come back. I also do this because my wife hates looking at the signs and so then I can sort of get it all done on my time. And then we can hang on and do whatever we want to do in the city. But I really do love the connection of feeling like people have done what I'm doing in this place before. Like, remember, I got up one early one morning in Rome

and I went for this run and I'm running around. And then I found myself I was in the circus maximus, which, you know, because it's so such a state of disrepair, you can just get in and walk around it. And so, you know, running around this thing that, you know, people have been racing horses and humans in for, you know, again, 2,000 years. There is something special about feeling that sort of energy coming up from the ground or the surroundings or the place that you're in. Did you feel that on the way to disbarda?

Oh, without a doubt. Well, you know, that's my ancestral roots from that region. So I felt a pretty deep connection with the land. And I mean, you know, you started the base of the acropolis with the sunrise and, you know, you've got chills. You're knees almost buckled, you know, and it's so emotional that that particular region. And, you know, just knowing that literally a gentleman, 2500 years ago, stood in that very same position and basically did what the same thing I did,

but under much more threatening circumstances, it was phenomenal. And it's like as much as everything has changed, you're probably on paved roads at good points, you're here on airplanes fly above, you've got your modern running shoes on, at the core of it, that feeling that you felt, you know, probably 20 miles in or 100 miles in, you're wrestling with that voice, you're getting tired, you're getting hungry, you're getting thirsty. That, you know, it's different as your feet are that is,

as you're saying, that feeling is still fundamentally unchanged and will be the same forever. Yeah, I mean, the kind of raw emotions mentally unchanged and will be the same forever. Yeah, I mean, the kind of raw emotions that you feel when you're running great distances. I don't think, you know, those are unique to that sort of endeavor and you know, that will never go away regardless of how much modern footwear we have.

You know, let's say they figure out a way to, you know, make us e-lags like an e-bike. Yeah. You're always gonna, you know, you's say they figure out a way to, you know, make us e-lags like an e-bike. Yeah. You're always going to, you know, you're always going to feel those things when you're running 150 miles. So when you run, do you listen to music? You know, I don't, Ryan. I, you know, sometimes I listen to music.

Mostly I just, you know, if it's a shorter run like one or two hours, I try not to listen anything because inevitably I start thinking. And again, we talked about the thought you have when you're running, but I also have about 500 audio books. Am I playlist? So I listened to probably two or three books a month. So you do audio books when you run? A lot of times I do.

Yeah. Do you find that you can retain it? I'm always amazed. I can't do audiobooks and I can't do podcasts when I'm working out. My mind is in a not that kind of receiving mode. Only if I'm working out, I, you know, with like hit training or, you know,

even cycling, I can't quite get into an audiobook the way I can when I'm running. And when I'm running, sometimes I'm out for six or eight hours training. And I never run the same route twice. So I'm always on a fresh new route and I'm running by myself and I can really tune into an audiobook.

But to your point, I can't tell you how many audio books that I've listened to, I need to pick up this actual book. Right. Some of the passages are so good. So I end up buying the physical book as well. For whatever reason, I have this weird quirk where I will find, even when I listen to music, I don't like listen to shuffled music

or a playlist or whatever. It's usually one song that I've selected for that day or that I've been on a kick with for a week or so. And I listen to that same thing on repeat. And so it's kind of part of getting into a zone where after five or six listens of a song, it's not that it becomes background noise because you're still hearing it, but it kind of has blurred together.

So you're just like in the song as opposed to the beginning of the song or the end of the song, it's just kind of in this loop. And that to be as very similar to the place you get when you're running, which is like, you're just in it. And you're fully sort of present and connected. At the same time, kind of disconnected almost out of your body because like the body is in charge instead of the mind being in charge.

That's just weird, right? I guess I have to try that, but that's the first time I've heard of that one. I do the same thing when I'm writing. It's usually a song on repeat. It helps me just sort of check out and let something else take over. The Buddhist talk about willful will. When you're trying to be in charge, there's an intentionality there that isn't quite right, but when the training takes over or the instant takes over, to me, that's more of a pure place.

Yeah, I mean, I think to me, writing is a delicate dance between making it happen and letting it happen. Yes, I love that. Yeah, sometimes you feel like you're forcing it, and if you can just let go of that, it flows more naturally. Although that goes back to the same thing about running, it's like, how do you know when you gut it out versus like this is not a day to force it?

You know what I mean? Like, you know, because if you, if you just, if you only write when you're inspired, for instance, you'll, you won't write enough. But if it's no fun, and you're just, you know, sort of gritting your teeth and bearing it every day, probably what you're producing isn't right. So it comes back this weird balance. Yeah, well, I mean, there's a quote in my new book. It's something like, you know, there are two ways to get to the finish of an ultra marathon.

The first is to put your head down and grunt your way through it. And I don't know the other way. I mean, pretty much always comes down to, you know, you're dancing at a point. I mean, the pain is, the numbness goes away. And, you know, you feel like you could keep running around the world. And, you know, 20, 20 feet later, you know,

you can barely get off the ground. So, and actually, you know, an ultra marathon becomes just struggle. But that's something you learned early on, right? I was reading one of your, you did a race, maybe middle school or high school, and the coach asked you how it went, and you said, oh, it felt great. And he said, like, within your not trying hard enough, because it shouldn't feel great.

Yeah, and he said, if it felt great, you didn't try hard enough. It's supposed to hurt like hell. This is my seventh grade cross-country coach. This is my seventh grade cross-country coach. Is that true for writing also? I guess I find that it is. There's a quote, a writer is someone to whom writing does not come easy. Having the book is fun. Writing the book is grueling grind. Yeah, I mean, I think it's 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

You know, I think any, any writer that I've read about struggles with passages, you know, with just getting a sentence right, with getting the pacing right. But I think, you know, I tell this to my son all the time, the best writers are the best readers. So if you're well read, I think that helps a lot because you learn about writing techniques for mothers that you can build into your books. Yeah, and I think we often, people confuse the sport

or the artistic endeavor like a book with getting it down on the page, which of course is one of the marathons, but in fact, writing a book is actually several marathons, right? So I just, I finished my next book. I finished it in December. And today I just got the tracking from the publisher, my second pass of the pages. So the second set of designed pages will come in. And now, I have to read this book for however many times,

this has been probably 20, 30 times. I have to go through, edit it again. I can't, you know, I have to read it almost with a higher sort of set of standards than I did the last time. And it's, you know, I have to tweak more, final, to get it maybe one percent better. And then, then after that, I still have to record the audiobook. Then I have to start gearing up for the marketing launch.

And then, then I have to do the marketing launch. And then, you know, I also am, I'm, I'm my schedule, I'm supposed to start writing my next book tomorrow. That's like what's on my schedule. So, you know, there's, I think one of the benefits of endurance sports is that idea of like just when you think it's, you're running out of gas, you're like at the halfway point or something. It's that, you know, it's not just the fun performance part of it that is the the slog. It's the it's all the other things that you have to do as part of it.

It's all the other things that you have to do as part of it. I could agree with you more. Knowing you, it's hearing this, is really reassuring because I go through the same thing. I just think of someone like you that I hold on a pedestal as just an icon of achievement, knowing that you are literally sitting in front of a computer for hours and hours and hours writing. It's kind of comforting because unless you're an introvert, I don't know how other people do it.

You can't write a good book. You can't write any book without spending hours and hours in your own head. Totally. Well, that's very nice of you to say. I do like to joke, like, you know, people be like, tell me about your book or something. And it's like, you know, if I could just tell you what this was, I never would have gone

through this horrible experience of writing it. Like, my whole life is that I cannot explain to you what I think. I have to go write it in book form. You know, people go like, tell me what the new book's about and they want like a two minute answer. And you're like, if I had a two minute answer, I just would have done that.

I wouldn't have spent two years and 300 pages getting this thing down. You know what, I can't, I'm nodding my head and agreement with you. I just, I don't, you know, people want the elevator pitch of your book and you're like, geez, you know, it goes just an elevator pitch, you know, it'd be in a blog post or something. Right. It'd be a tweet. Or like, you know, in your case, like, you'd be like, so how long have you been working on the new

book, Dean? And you're like, literally since I started running for the first time. Like, it's a lifetime of experience that you're then getting since I started running for the first time, like it's a lifetime of experience that you're then getting down on the page. So yeah, I'm starting this new book tomorrow, but like, I mean, the clock on this thing started, you know, the day I was born. Yeah, that's really what Will said. Yeah, and you know, the gratification for me is like,

this morning I got an email from a guy He said you know last time I was gonna read a couple chapters of your book before I went to sleep and he said six hours later I finished the last page and I thought wow, it's amazing. He said and then I got up. I just had to go for a run So yes getting messages like that kind of You know it makes it all seem worthwhile So, getting messages like that kind of, you know, it makes it all seem worthwhile. So talk to me about pacing in one of these insane races that you do. Because they're races, but they're also primarily races with oneself, right? Like, if you, it's more like, can you physically do it or not? That's the first leader board.

And then second is like where you come in relation to other people. But one of the things that I find sort of consistently challenging about running is like everyone else is out there running their own race. And how do you stay locked in on the race that you're trying to run that you've mapped out and not getting distracted by the misleading bursts of speed or or bad strategies that that the other racers are on? Yeah, I mean, there's a saying you know plan the race and race the plan So I kind of go into most races with somewhat of a plan. And to your point, it's really easy to, you know,

to lock horns with someone else early on and run too hard. I think. Because I've done it, you know, you've learned their experience. It's mostly bad experience. So I know the toll that takes, and I can't tell you how many times, you know,

I've had people rocket past me, and I felt like, oh man, I'm so slow many times you know I've had people rocket past me and I've felt like oh man I'm so slow and you know 75 miles later they're on the side of the trail you know unable to get up. So a lot of it comes to to patients and experience but it's also a lot about problem solving. I mean in an ultramarathon you know it, things are going right, just give it a couple of moments. Things are always going to go wrong. So how do you deal with various things breaking down? And that again, a lot of that comes through experience. Yeah, I went one thing that I think about when I'm sort of running,

but also in life, there's this beautiful passage in one of Seneca's essays he talks about. He says the key is to know what path you're on and to not be distracted or misled by the paths of the other peoples who crisscross yours. He said especially the people who are lost. And the word he uses is euthemia. He basically just translates from ancient Greek

into some word resembling tranquility. But I think he said, it's sort of knowing who you are, what you're trying to do, what you need to do to be able to accomplish that, and then to have the fortitude, there's a different kind of fortitude, to be able to go like, it doesn't matter that this person who started on the finish line with me is ahead of me for now, because if I stick to what I planned out over the long run, eventually it will pay dividends, but that's gonna require some discipline in the meantime to not throw that out

just because it doesn't look like it's working at the beginning. Yeah, I mean, I kind of agree with you more. That's very well said. The thing with ultramarathoning is that you get a lot of chances at redemption. Sure. Because there's going to be so many times where you're being passed and then there are other times you're passing people.

You know, there's a saying when you're catching up to someone, you're reeling them in. And I like to say, you know, some days you're a fisherman and other days you're a fish. So some days you're doing the reeling and some days you're getting real. And it's, it's, we're talking about timeless wisdom. I mean, nothing proves the sort of moral of a soft fable about the tortoise and the hare more than, yeah, a race of, of any distance longer than a couple miles where the person who got up and out of the gate fast inevitably waivers and the person who just kept on keeping on and didn't quit has a chance over a long enough distance if they can sustain it. Yeah, I mean, it comes back and another quote of my book is,

you know, finishing an ultramarathon is simple. All you have to do is not stop. That's what I joke people go, you know, I've been with my wife now for 15 years. We've been married for five, we've been together. We're approaching the almost sort of halfway point of our like bit together as half the time we've been alive. And people are sort of like, what's the secret? And I like

to just say not breaking up that that's mainly because there is no magical thing that just makes it easy. Like people go, oh, you know, I can't meet someone that I can settle down with. And it's like, you know, have you have you tried settling down with someone? Like, I'm not saying that your relationship with your spouse is an endurance sport that you just grit your teeth and put up with. But I'm also not saying that it's not that because it kind of is.

You know, I mean, I think that a lot of people overlook that. So much, I think of of love is discipline and commitment, you know, forever-favorite, you know, simple, doubt, forever-favorite. I mean, it's not always pretty. It's like an ultra-marathon. There are points where you want to give up and you're grobbling, you're like, this is ugly. Like, why am I in this relationship?

But, you know, if you stick to it, there's a certain magic in that and I think that's very much overlooked in our in our society and if you if you talk to you know older couples Like my parents have been married for over 50 years and you know, they say the same thing you know that Thunder and lightning You know our marriage was created in heaven, but so was thunder and lightning lightning, our marriage was created in heaven, but so was thunder and lightning. Yeah, and this idea of like you just don't quit, I think is true in a lot of the creative professions. And then I also think like the idea of not getting distracted by what other people are doing. Like when I look at the authors,

for instance, that I really admire, it's, you know, it's like a Robert Carro, who's like, you know, in his 70s or 80s, still writing, still slogging away at the same series on Lyndon Johnson. These books were epic, ultra-marathons of artistic genius and research, but I also love that they're still doing it. Sometimes you get jealous, you're like, Oh, this book is off to a hotter start than mine. Or, you know, this guy's getting all the attention, so on and so forth. But you're like, no, no, no, I want to do this for the long term. And I want to, I want to do this till I drop dead,

right? And so that idea of sustainability, of not getting distracted, of sticking to your plan, regardless of what's happening, whether you're ahead or you're behind sticking to your plan, regardless of what's happening, whether you're ahead or you're behind, sticking to your plan, that really is an important skill. And I think it was Maracame and what I, he wrote this in what I talk about when I talk about running, is that like, it's running is both exercise and a metaphor,

and you learn a lot from the metaphor. Yeah, I can agree more. You know, running is such a simplistic act, right? I mean, you're just, you know, you're putting one foot in front of the other at an accelerated rate, but it's profound. And the lessons you learn, you know, extend way beyond the act of just moving your feet fast. Do you ever feel your body breaking down on you? Like, is the runner today the same runner that was there 10 years ago, or if you had to adjust the way that like a, you know, a savvy veteran in the NBA has to compensate for, you know, the limitations of their body as they've gotten older? Yeah, very much so.

I mean, I'm so much slower than I used to be. So to run the same times that I used to come easy, I've really got to work at it. And as well as, I pretty much said, like I'm committed to doing this sport and tell, my finish line is a pine box. So how are you gonna get there? And I just look at myself through the lens

of being the best animal that I can be. And everything I do is through that lens. So when it comes to training, I don't compromise when it comes to training. I do not compromise when it comes to cross training. My diet and nutrition is very regimented. My sleep quality is best, you know, I try to optimize sleep quality

as well as I try to optimize my interpersonal relationships. I think a lot of people overlook that, you know, if you have harmonious interpersonal relationship with your friends and family, your performance is inevitably better and just the opposite of what's true as well. Right, if you're up the night before a race arguing with your spouse over something, that's energy that's not going to be spent running and it's also screwing with your sleep and so on and so forth.

I couldn't agree more. So, you know, making, you know, doing the one you can to harmonize your interpersonal relationships harmonious, I think is a really good thing for any athlete, and I don't think that's something many athletes focus on, but, you know, I've had to take this kind of 360 holistic approach to being the best dean that dean can be, you know, to keep up with my younger self. So if your body is slower and you're still keeping up the same times that you used to post. How does that work? Where are you making up the difference? Is it just willpower or is it?

If you saw some of my data from some of my runs, you know, you'd be blown away. I routinely get my heart rate nearer over 200. And I do that by running these really hard tempo runs, short, like five miles, just nose breathing. So the ancient Spartans, they used to, when they were training the young recruits, they used to make them run for 10 miles with water in their mouth. And they used to have to spit it out at the end of 10 miles.

So they were into nose breathing. And I've been experimenting with that as a way to really, you know, jack up my V-O-2 max, as well as, you know, based on my performance. Interesting. If you're trying to try to nose breathing. So my septum's all screwed up, so I'm like a mouth breathing idiot. Yeah, it is really tough.

I can't imagine what that will, you know, screw up septum down it, but even with the perfect nose, it really, really tests you. So you're just sort of looking, you're having to look for efficiencies inside your inside your pacing and your running because you can't just coast by on sort of natural ability or youth anymore. That's exactly right. And also, you know, the idea of training throughout the day. So I don't, you know, to me, life is training and training is life.

I don't compartmentalize and just say, okay, I've got to do my hour workout today. I mean, I'm constantly training throughout the day. I have this hip routine and body weight exercises with push ups, pull ups, chair dips, and burpees. And it's about a 12 to 14 minute routine. And I do that five or six times throughout the course of the day. As well as my-

Scheduled are just randomly. Just randomly. Like I did one before this interview because I just felt like I was a little bit, you know, get a little allergic. And, you know, just throughout the course of the day when I'm feeling like my energy is, is adding of this, you know, pop out a quick hit routine. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors here and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. Yeah, I'm my next book is going to be about self discipline. I'm doing a series on the

four virtues. So I just did courage and then the next one, self discipline. And there's a Greek word I'm forgetting it, but it basically it's about sort of the winning, the battle of the higher self against the lower self, that's sort of what self discipline is, is the higher self winning. I imagine given everything that you accomplished, given how long you've been doing it, there would be this natural tendency to relax, right?

Complace and see, resting on one's laurels. But the second you do that in, and actually it might be interesting too because, not being in a team sport, there's even a greater temptation to relax because there's not the level of play and the system sort of keeping you in check, you must have to sort of retain this constant vigilance about your discipline to stay at the level that you stay at.

You know, it's funny, I never question it. I never, I never once have quite, you know, as you were talking of things, he's kind of right. Like, I never once have quite, you know, you, as you were talking, I'm thinking, he's kind of right. Like I, I am such a disciplined actor and I never come, like I do not allow compromise. I mean, just black and white. You don't compromise on anything. And that, especially when it comes to diet, like I just kind of said, here are the acceptable foods you'll eat, you know, and here are the foods you won't. And that's it.

There's no such thing as a cheap day. Like you wouldn't even desire these other foods. Is that a struggle? Like does it count as self discipline if it's not a struggle? Or is it a struggle for you? I think I trained my mind for it not to be a struggle. I mean, I can walk past a bakery.

And the smells of a bakery usually just make you salivate. To me, I don't even, it doesn't even register with me. You know, eating a donut would be like eating a tennis ball to me. I'm not even sure what it's all about. Yeah, so either there's some natural thing there or you've transcended your, you've transcended the contest altogether. Like, for instance, there's some stuff I don't like, so it's not a temptation, right? I don't like alcohol, so not drinking

is not a struggle for me. But then there's other things that I would like to do, but I've transcended doing them. Yeah, it's funny you say that because, you know, I was, Rich Rolls a good friend of mine. I was just texting with Rich, yeah. Okay, you know, and I said, and one time Rich, you know,

could we go have a beer right now? You know, he's a recovered alcoholic. Right. And he said, no, there's just no way that I couldn't do that. I'm like, Rich, you're so learned it. Like, you know, you know so much about alcoholism and addictive personalities.

Come, we just go have a beer, it's one beer. And because I can just go have a beer and enjoy it and be done with it. And he just said, there's just no way. Like, I couldn't do that. It would lead to my destruction. And I just found that so curious. Well, I think that's what you sort of realize when you look at addiction

or you it's like some people for some people they can do it and some people you just can't do. It's like a gene or a switch that just makes it impossible for you to do certain things in moderation. And sometimes that can be good. Sometimes that's really not good. But that's also the ego of like, oh, I have transcended it, so it's not a struggle. That's almost the darkest temptation. When you think you've mastered it, that's precisely when it gets you. Yeah, well, let me ask you, do you have any vices that you're willing to share? Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely do. I would say for me, I have a sort of a compulsive

sort of inclination. So I'm generally just really careful about the things that I do. So I don't drink, I don't like it, but I don't drink it's never been a part of my life because like I know if I got to a place where I liked it, it would be compulsive. It's the same thing with drugs for me. I just have to have like sort of a hard line, like those things are not in the life. But I would say for me the vice tends to be more, I don't know how I would express it, but it's typically associated

more with work. So, like, and maybe this is true for you, like, whatever's happening in my life, you know, the reality of the world and Murphy's Law and other people and all of the stuff, my work is always simple and my work is always in my control. So that's a good way to channel energy, but it also can become a way where just as sort of anything that releases endorphins or generates pleasure or satisfaction or some sort of reward, that can become almost like a relief mechanism.

So stuff is bad or focus on work. Stuff is bad, focus on work. And so it kind of creates this almost Pavlovian thing where work is where you get relief and then work can take on an outsized role of importance in your life. That makes sense. Yeah, it's almost like a shelter. Yes.

The security blind that you just go to when the world is getting ugly. Yeah, and so if I don't have it for a few days, that can be, I can feel like withdrawal effects. Even with running, it is almost always harder for me to not run than it is to run. So I need more willpower to say, today I am going to rest because I am sick. Because it's my son's birthday and my family is in town and blah, blah, blah, blah. It is easier for me to get up the willpower to go do the run, to get the relief, to get

the endorphins than it is to have the self-control to say like, I'm going to sit here with this discomfort and not do it. And so I'm wondering, because in August, I'm supposed to run across Australia. And I need the quarantine for two weeks of entry. And I'll say it's a hard quarantine, where basically I've heard a hotel room and I don't leave the hotel room. And the run across Australia, you know, the quarantine scares me

than more than the run. Yes. How am I going to sit still for two weeks in America? 200 square foot hotel room. So I completely relate to what you're saying. It's harder for me not to work out than to work out. Yes. Yes.

And so that's why that's sort of my point about self-discipline. I almost wonder, is itself discipline, although actually have you read the new Sebastian younger book? No, I'm dying to read it. I haven't read it yet. It's really good. I had him on the podcast.

He was talking about how he basically walks across a good chunk of America. Does his backpacking trip. But he was saying, you know you've gotten into the rhythm walking when it's easier to keep going than it is to stop. And I think that's a place you can get to with running, with writing, with working, with any sort of task that you're dedicated to, where it's so soothing and relaxing and almost self-propelling

to stay in the rhythm of it, whereas to go spend two weeks in a hotel room in Australia, that's like a record scratch. Like that's so abnormal outside your normal experience, but in a weird way, that's going to be its own endurance event for you. And probably challenging in a bunch of good ways. You're going to have to figure out how not to go crazy in that hotel room. in a bunch of good ways. You're going to have to figure out how not to go crazy in that hotel room. How many burgers can I do? Yes.

I can relate to that feeling of finding this kind of groove and not wanting to get out of it. I mean, one time I ran 50 marathons and 50 states, and all of the 50 states and 50 consecutive days. And I finished in New York City, and I lived in the San Francisco Bay area and afterward after you know this 50 days of getting up every morning and run a marathon I couldn't imagine it was coming back to my house so I just said to my wife you know

I'm gonna run home. So you can get a run from New York to San Francisco and I said yeah I am and I literally I bought a jog stroller and just put all my stuff in it and it started running because it was like my new reality. It was just, you know, every morning getting up and running. Well, you needed a decompress. It's like, um, it's like in the hurt locker. He's like, he just has to get back even though it's insane and incredibly dangerous.

You can kind of become addicted to the adrenaline and the rhythm of it. Again, I think because it's as insane as it is, there's a logic to it in a way that there isn't a logic to like having to go get your driver's license renewed at the DMV. That's like an insane world that you don't have any control over. I so relate to that. I mean, to me wandering, and to a lot of people, I think wandering is more natural. And you feel more comfortable than going to the DMV for sure. I mean, I think we were, you know, we came onto this planet as wanderers.

And that's been taken away from us. Yeah, I found it's magical with my kids. Like this morning, I did a four-ish mile run with both my kids in the double jogging stroller. And there's something sort of very primitively connective about that experience. And I found that like almost all behavioral issues with the kids can get, if not totally resolved,

at least temporarily resolved by taking them for a walk of some form or another, or a run of some form or another, or a bike ride of some form or another. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a whole nother, hot butt in the mind, but I think the way we raise our kids is inherently wrong. I mean, we tell young boys to sit still and pay attention,

but their very nature is to, you know, run wild and not pay attention. Yeah, so we kind of force them in the unnatural state, and no wonder they have behavioral problems. Just let them go running, let them go exploring. Yeah, they should be running as the way that precipice was running as a kid, or the Spartans were running as a kid. You can channel that energy into the form of activity. But yeah, the idea that you were supposed to sit, for long extended periods of time in a classroom

with a bunch of other kids is so insanely unnatural. That's what I felt with the pandemic because I've got these young kids. It's like people were like, oh, they didn't learn anything doing virtual learning. It's like, no, they probably learned more, not having to be forced into this artificial structure every day for the last 15 months.

Yeah, I mean, and I hope you got them out into nature as well. I mean, I'm not sure. No, we live out in the country. So we spent all day outside, we spent all day outside, even in the Texas summer. And you know, they spent hours in the pool, hours walking through the woods. Like it was, you know, it was, it was much more of an immersive experience than, than, than school.

And, and it was great. Yeah, no, I mean, my earliest childhood recollections are running home from kindergarten. And I literally, I mean, I so loved relating to the world at six miles an hour. I just, you know, I remember the leafs changing color. I remember the way the air felt on my skin. I remember the ducks that came to this one lake. And, you know, that to me was so much more valuable than, you know, sitting in a classroom.

Totally, totally. So much more valuable than you know sitting in a classroom Totally totally and and and unfortunately being around such Other unhealthy kids, right like one of the weird things about the last year has been No one in my family has gotten sick. Yeah, not not COVID like that's been it's been nice not getting COVID But it's also been nice not getting you know Hand in mouth disease or, you know, like whatever these god-awful things that you bring home from daycare. Yeah, even the sniffles, yeah, I mean, you're so right. I think our immune system is a benefit from the lock-in.

Well, I love the new book. I love the journey that you've been on and I'm very curious to see where it goes because I think that's the other thing that I say is like the real marathon is doing it over the course of one's life. You know, you hear people, I'm training for a marathon and I always go, that's great. You should, good for you, I hope you do it. But like to train for something as this one off that you do and then stop. To me is less of a feat than like, what kind of rhythm can you get in

and what can you cumulatively accomplish, you know, sort of day in and day out. And I think that's really the marathon that you're on. That's the ultimate endurance thing. It's not that you did 50 marathons in 50 days. It's that that was one mile in a multi mile, you know, sortmile race career for you of these insane feats of endurance. Yeah, I mean, I've now raced and competed in all seven continents twice over. So,

five point you love and let it kill you. Well, I hate this question, but I'm going to ask you, what is the next thing for you? Like, do you have a sort of a mountain that's there that you feel like you have in tackles? Is there some sort of feet of human endurance that is there in the distance that you're trying to figure out a way to do? Yeah, so I'm planning to ask, I'm planning to run from the lowest point on earth to the highest point. Oh. From the Dead Sea to the top of Edwards. Wow. It literally or like, how does that work?

Yeah, not virtual. I mean, literally. No, I mean, you know, they're like, we're swimming across the Great Lakes, but they're really doing it like in the pool. Like, you mean you'll start in the Dead Sea and then you'll culminate by climbing Everest? Yes, yes. Wow. Probably not much of a running pace I've had for Everest.

Yeah, no, not forever. And you know, you'll be interested in the way this comes together. You know, how much I have to do itself supported versus having access to like a support vehicle or something, but you know, I'd love to do to do it self-supported versus having access to a support vehicle or something. I'd love to do the whole thing self-supported. I just don't know how practical that'll be.

Yeah, you might need a Sherpa, right? I'm certainly not going to run up every somebody running here. Well, that's amazing. I've been a fan of your stuff for a long time. We've never connected. I'm so glad we finally I've been a fan of your stuff for a long time, we've never connected. I'm so glad we finally did this. And likewise, Ryan. And how many books do you got?

Which, what number were those games? I actually lose count, which is usually a good sign when I'm running as well, like when I lose track of the miles, it means I'm really locked in. But I think it's 11, it could be 12. And then I already know like, you know, like the next three. So I'm just sort of in that zone where you're just like, I got so much work and so much far ahead of me that it's not really worth counting too closely because that just makes you tired. Just taking one sentence at

a time, one word at a time. Exactly. Just like one of the things I like when I got an Apple watch, it's helped me as a swimmer because now I don't have to count the laps anymore. It's just like happening, you know? And then I can get lost in the like I'm just doing this for a long time, as opposed to like, what am I, is this, is this 55 laps or 50 sit, you know, like it's something's doing that for me. Yeah, you can let your mind wander then. And I guess you probably enjoy the, you know,

the swim itself more when you don't have a count. Yeah, and I think as a writer it's like as long as you're always working, you're always noodling on something, that's better than like, what should I do next? Well, you've done an incredible job, keep them all fresh and different, as far as the themes and the content, so you know, don't stop. Well, it's telling you're not, you have no intensive stopping, which is fantastic. No, you said it well, find what you love and let it kill you, because you're gonna, you know, actually that's a good place to stop, because you said earlier, you want to keep doing this to you, you know, the finish line is a pine box.

What I think so profound about that, and this, what the Stokes would say, is like, you don't, it's a fantasy to think, oh, the pine box is when I'm old, right? Because you don't actually know. The finish line is when you end up in a pine box, and you inevitably will end up in a pine box. It could be three weeks from now, it could be 30 years from now, it could be due to radical life extension, it could be a hundred years from now,

but invariably, you'll end up in the box. So you should do what you love and you should do it well and not cheat yourself or the sport by half-assing it. Yeah, I mean, hopefully it's a few years down the road, but you're absolutely right. You know, this could be the last interview I ever gave. I could walk out the door and get hit by a truck, so you never know. I love it. Well, man, thanks. I'll record the intro after this. And I think this may actually run tomorrow.

I'm so I'm excited to put it up well i was a fantastic way i appreciate your great guy and uh... i think you know i hope you can run together one day but i'd love to meet you and grease somewhere i would i definitely would i would love to do that well let's uh... we'll figure out a uh... uh... race to do in grease that would be so cool and i was gonna ask you i saw you posted those those shoes. Those looked awesome. Yes, the $375 they better be awesome. Yeah, they better be. Yeah, now they're amazing. I mean, these guys said they said, you know, they were full-wear designers and they just said we're sick of

compromise. We're just going to make the best shoe possible. And it's going to cost a lot, but we're not going to compromise with materials or anything. And they really did a great job. How hard is the bottom? I couldn't tell by looking at it. The one thing I love such hate about Texas is I feel like it has the sharpest rocks of anywhere in America. And so I couldn't tell are those pretty thick bottoms? Yeah, and there's a carbon fiber plate in there as well. Oh. Detective plate.

So the plate you can take it in or out, but if you're in a rocky terrain, you would keep it in. All right, well, I'm going to check this out. They look sick. Yeah, they're pretty amazing. Awesome. All right, man. Well, I'll let you go and we'll talk soon.

Yeah, you take care of it brother. We'll be in time. Thanks for listening to The Daily Stoke Podcast. Just a reminder, we've got signed copies of all my books in The Daily Stoke Store. You can get them personalized, you can get them sent to a friend. Whatever you want, we'd love for you to have a copy. I know I love signed copies of some of my favorite books. If you love a signed copy of The Ops Goes The Way, you go as the enemy, stillness is the key. The leatherbound edition of the Daily Stoke. We have them all in the Daily Stoke

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