The Daily Stoic - What We Can Learn From The Rich And Famous | Jordan Harbinger

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

At the time of this recording, Jordan Harbinger had just published over 1,000 episodes of his podcast, The Jordan Harbinger Show. Throughout the years, Jordan has interviewed icons like Kobe, Malcolm Gladwell, Danny Trejo, Mark Cuban and more. Ryan has also had the pleasure of being a guest on the show multiple times since he met Jordan over a decade ago, when his first book Trust Me, I’m Lying came out. In this conversation, Jordan and Ryan talk about what they have learned from interviewing and meeting some of the most successful people across all industries. Whether it's lessons learned from their remarkable achievements or huge mistakes, there's a lot to takeaway from years of conversations with the world's most accomplished and widely known names.Listen to Ryan’s previous interviews on The Jordan Harbinger Show: 45: Ryan Holiday | Solving for What You Really Want from Life271: Ryan Holiday | Stillness Is the Key740: Ryan Holiday | Discipline is Destiny (Live from Los Angeles)Connect with Jordan on Instagram, X, YouTube, TikTok: @JordanHarbinger🎟 Order tickets to Ryan's tour dates in Australia at ryanholiday.net/tour✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. I've been writing books for a long time now and one of the things I've noticed is how every year, every book that I do, I'm just here in New York putting right thing right now out. What a bigger percentage of my audience is listening to them in audiobooks, specifically on Audible. I've had people had me sign their phones, sign their phone case because they're like I've listened to all your audiobooks here and my sons they love audiobooks we've been doing it in the car to get them off their screens because audible helps your imagination soar. It helps you

read efficiently, find time to read when maybe you can't have a physical book in front of you and then it also lets you discover new kinds of books, re-listen to books you've already read from exciting new narrators. You can explore bestsellers, new releases. My new book is up, plus thousands of included audio books and originals, all with an Audible membership.

You can sign up right now for a free 30-day Audible trial and try your first audio book for free. You'll get right thing right now, totally for free. Visit audible.ca to sign up. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Saruti. And we are the hosts of Red-Handed, a weekly true crime podcast. for free, visit audible.ca to sign up. and weekly show, Shorthand, which is just an excuse for us to talk about anything we find interesting because it's our show and we can do what we like. We've covered the death of Princess Diana, an unholy Quran written in Saddam Hussein's blood, the gruesome history of European witch hunting, and the very uncomfortable phenomenon

of genetic sexual attraction. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Like can someone give consent to be cannibalized? What drives a child to kill? And what's the psychology of a terrorist? Listen to Red Handed wherever you get your podcasts and access our bonus shorthand episodes exclusively on Amazon Music or by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life.

And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke podcast. I'm heading over to Australia in a couple of weeks. I'm gonna be in Sydney on July 31st. I'm gonna be in Sydney on July 31st.

I'm gonna be in Melbourne on August 1st. Then in November, I'm doing Vancouver and Toronto, London, Dublin, Rotterdam, all awesome cities I'm really excited to go to. If you wanna come to those talks, they're open to the public and you can grab those tickets at ryanholiday.net slash tour. I have this very vivid memory. This would have been like 2012.

Yeah, 2012. My first book had just come out and I'd done one of my first ever podcasts and it was with this guy Jordan. And then I was in LA. This is back when podcasts were all recorded remotely. No one even dreamed of having a studio in their house where they did these things, and certainly no one was posting video of their podcasts.

And I was doing this talk and he was gonna swing by and we were gonna link up, and as happens all the time in LA, like he couldn't find parking. And I was like, you know what man, don't worry about it. I'll, we'll get together some other time. And we ultimately did, I don't remember when we met for the first time, but it's crazy to me

that 12 years later, I have a podcast, Jordan's coming out to my studio and we're still friends. And in fact, his podcast, The Jordan Harbinger Show just hit its thousandth episode on the day we recorded this at the Daily Stoke studios right next to the painted porch. He's had some incredible guests over the years, Malcolm Gladwell, Danny Trejo, Kobe. I've been on quite a few times. And I'm not saying those are those are the best. Basically, we did some back to back conversation.

So I interviewed him. I'm going to run that as two episodes. And then he interviewed me, and he's gonna run that on his podcast. If you don't wanna wait, you can check out my many other interviews. I know we recorded it once live in San Francisco, and we recorded it once live in Los Angeles,

like a live event or something like that. But this was an awesome conversation. And then funny enough, he and I got together in New York. He flew out to do this interview with me. And then it turned out like the next day we were both flying to New York for stuff. We could have just done it at a studio in New York or something. But I always loved spending time with him. We ended up having breakfast in New York one morning after I did some media stuff.

He's one of my favorite people and he always sends me very nice notes about the Daily Dad stuff. Anyways, I'm gonna bring you this conversation with my friend and someone I'm a big fan of, someone whose show I listened to all the time, Jordan Harbinger. And I think you're gonna like it.

We're talking about some of the things we've learned interviewing all these people over the years, how to stay present while you're gonna like it. We're talking about some of the things we've learned interviewing all these people over the years, how to stay present while you're doing whatever it is you're doing, and how to ask great questions. That's something I've been thinking a lot about. And then a bunch of other stuff. Thanks to Jordan for coming out.

Thanks for having me on over the years. He's been an awesome supporter of my work. And like I said, just one of my favorite people and a person who the more, you know, sometimes you kind of know someone and then you end up having like a long conversation with them like off the record or whatever. And you're like, wow, I like you more than I thought I did.

Like I like you even more. Like you just, the more you know about him, the more you like him. That's kind of been my experience with Jordan over the years. And I can't say that about everyone. Anyways, here's my interview with the one and only Jordan Harbinger. Okay, so I was writing this thing for Daily Stoke

the other day and I thought you might relate to this. Yeah. Which is, I've realized I've been doing this long enough that a number of the people that I've interviewed are dead. Oh yeah. Have you thought about that? I have. Whenever there's a big, I should say big-ish celebrity death, I usually get a bunch of messages about it

because I don't think like, oh, check that one off though. It's like, I don't, you know, but like when Larry King died, people were like, hey, didn't you interview him? Didn't you tell me that you had breakfast with him a bunch of times? And I was like, yeah, I actually knew that person. It wasn't just like a random person.

And then when Kobe passed away. Right, you had Kobe on. Yeah, people were like, oh, were you guys close? And I was like, no, it's not really how most of us works. Yeah, and they're like, oh, didn't it hit harder because you met him in real life? And I thought about it. You know, you start to see,

you're thinking about this kind of thing. And actually it did because when you see people on TV, they are fake, right? Your brain, my brain anyway, is like, this is a person who's on television. They might as well be a cartoon character for the most part. But then when you meet them and then the cameras are off

and they're like, show me pictures of your kids, because they're showing you pictures of their kids. And you're like, oh, this is a real person. Then they die, you're like a father of children died. And that's really sad. Yeah, it's way different, it's totally different. Yeah, I was thinking about that because I was writing about someone

who was like a professor of Stoke philosophy who died. You've probably seen some of his videos online. I was like, I think I've emailed this person before. And as I went and I was like a professor of Stoke philosophy who died, you've probably seen some of his videos online. I was like, I think I've emailed this person before. And as I went and I was like, oh, I emailed this person in 2007. Oh my gosh. And it's like still in my Gmail. Yeah.

And then like, this is a person who's written about mortality. This is a person who's taught. And then the humanity of it all like sets in. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. There's something weird. And there's something weird about just the passage of time all like sets in. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. There's something weird, and there's something weird about just the passage

of time in your own life. Like when you started this stuff when you were young. Yeah. And then it sneaks up on you that like, oh, you've done this for a long amount of time. Yeah. It doesn't feel great. Cause people are like, you're a real pro now.

What are you in? And you're like, oh, oh, I've been podcasting for 18 years. I'm old now. This is a real thing, I'm an old person. There's a Seneca observation where he visits the house that he grew up in, and he sees all these trees, and they're old and dying. And then he realizes that he planted those trees.

He's like, oh, I'm old and dying. And I felt that, I think I may have met you, I think we might have been at this hotel at the same time. You ever been to the St. Julian in Boulder? I'm just trying to remember if we went to a conference. I remember Adam Bornstein did a conference there. Yeah, what was that called again? 212?

Yeah, yeah. Anyways, I've been to this hotel a couple of times and I was walking down the hall to my room and I don't really care if a hotel is not nice or nice. It's like, I'm never paying for it. I'm just like, I just go where they tell me. But I've stayed in enough hotels that like, what hit me as I was walking down the hallway of this hotel,

no offense to them, I was like, oh, this hotel is getting old. I was like, I've stayed in this hotel long enough that it's now in the cycle of like time to update the hotel. Yeah. You know? And I was like, we have been doing this that long? That like, because I was there the first time for a talk and I was there two days ago for a talk.

And I was like, I've been doing this long enough that the hotel is worn down. I'm obviously worn down also. Like you can see- Your hair's still in the drain. Yeah, you can see the manifestation of aging in other people and other things. And then you feel the same, but you're not the drain. Yeah, you can see the manifestation of aging in other people and other things. Oh yeah.

And then you feel the same, but you're not the same. It's true. Yeah, it's rude. That's why when we look, and women probably have it worse, when guys like us look in the mirror, like I was gonna get a haircut before this. My wife's like, it's still short enough. And I was like, you don't understand.

All the gray is on the side. Yeah, I was like, that's true. So when I cut it off, I look younger. She's like, no one's gonna care. And then she's like,, I look younger. And she's like, no one's gonna care. And then she's like, does Ryan film this? And I'm like, yeah, he films it. And there's lights, everyone's gonna see. And then I thought, isn't it, it's a little more authentic

if I just let the gray grow out. Maybe on daily Stoic, people will be like, who's this young guy with an edgy haircut? We don't wanna listen to him. So I let it grow out for this. It's like every time you get a haircut, you have more gray hair. And I think about that,

like every time I cut my kids nails, I go a certain amount of time has elapsed that never comes back. Like there are these things like in parenting that you just take for granted, right? Like cutting their nails, they grow out of clothes, they wear through shoes, you know, haircut. And it feels like you're going in a positive direction

when this is happening. And that's only because they have so much time. They do have so much time, hopefully. But there is something sad about it, right? There's this great poem about how like, we get excited when spring comes, but spring is also sad. Like you see the life of spring or the green of summer or whatever,

but what you're not thinking is like winter past and that winter will never happen again. And that the life is, there's more life in the plants, but there's less life in you. And you can kind of miss these things as they're happening. When you put it that way, yeah, it's true. There's a, I think it's a Daily Dad, it must be a Daily Dad email that I,

I have this program called Superhuman. It's like, remind me of this again. And I put it like six months. And there's a few of those that I have that I'm like, remind me in six months. And one of them is when you don't need the stuff anymore, like the tricycle is never gonna get used again. And the shoes are too small.

So you put them in the garage or the scooter, whatever the helmet doesn't fit. And I sent that to my wife, and she just responded with like a cry emoji, and it's true, right? Because you're like- Yeah, it's a graveyard. Your garage is a graveyard full of children you don't have anymore. It's so, it's super sad.

So I'm like, we have to donate this basically as soon as we don't need it anymore, and we're sure. So we can keep it for a few weeks if we're like, oh, he does want to go back to the scooter. Oh, you know what, he's not ready for the no training wheel thing. He's still gotta use the, I forget what it's called, that bike you sent me, the Strider with the no pedals.

I'm like, okay, but as soon as he's done done, get rid of it because I don't wanna be tripping over that thing and being like, what the heck is, oh, my son is too old for this. Like I'm gonna be, one, I'm gonna kick it with my foot and be angry. And then the second thing is I'm gonna feel intense sadness that he doesn't wanna snuggle in bed anymore because he's 12, not four.

Yeah, you sent me one that which I still have, which none of my kids could fit in. That it's like the tricycle handle on the back. Got the like little overhang thing. Yeah, you have this stuff and then you don't wanna get rid of it because it has a significance to it. And then it just sits there and you tell yourself,

this is Joan Didion wrote this haunting book after the loss of her daughter, this is her table. Oh, I wondered about that. They would have sat at this table as a family, which is crazy to think about. But she's writing about how you keep this stuff or these photographs to remind you of the memories. And she's like, what actually happens

or what can happen is then you look at them and they make you terribly sad because you remember that you actually weren't present for that moment. So you hold onto the tricycle because you're like, oh, this is such a memory of their childhood. And then actually when they were on the tricycle, you were on your phone.

Yeah, on your phone, exactly. Looking at Instagram comments from people that are angry at you for no reason. Yeah. But it was just weird walking down the hallway of this hotel being like, oh, like I've been doing this a very, like I emailed my speaking agent and I was like,

how many talks do you think I've done? Yeah. And it was like a very high, like a number that was like exciting. And then as you said, you've done, how many episodes of your podcast do you think I've done? And it was like a very high, like a number that was like exciting. And then as you said, you've done, how many episodes of your podcast do you think you've done? So the current show today, episode 1,000 dropped this morning. And then my previous show,

I think I was at like 722 when it stopped. So yeah, almost 2000 episodes. That's like exciting. And then also like a one-way street. Right, yeah. That's like a lot also like a one-way street. Right, yeah. That's like a lot of hours. It is, my agent was like, hey, there's an AI company, they might wanna license some of your content.

And I was like, oh, I don't know how much I have. He's like, how many hours do you have? So I'm adding it up and I'm like, wow, that's a lot of talking, I should probably stop. It's like bad that it sneaks up on you in one sense because it means you're not paying attention. So you're not paying attention and that's not good. And then it also should be like,

I think it's a positive sign when you just actually like what you're doing and you lose track of it, right? Like they asked Lou Gehrig one time, you know, like, they were like, hey, I think you might have the longest streak of games in baseball. Like how many do you think you have, you know? And he's like, I don't know, like a couple hundred. And they're like, bro, it's like 2000 games.

You're not even close, right? And that's good, you wanna be lost in it. And at the same time, if you get too lost in it, you wake up one day and you're like, oh, 20 years have passed. And was I there for that? Or the other thing I'm thinking about is like, you've interviewed a bunch of athletes, I'm sure.

I've never heard one of the athletes that I've talked to been like, I wish it was over faster. And I wish I took it, like, maybe they'd say they took it more seriously, but most of the time they're like, I wish I enjoyed it more. Like I wish I wasn't so, such a monster to myself throughout the thing.

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or you can listen ad free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app on Apple Podcasts. What do you say it is? Isn't that what all high performers do though? They beat themselves up over and over and over. I mean, one, I do that and I'm just a podcaster. So I can imagine what an all-star baseball player does. My friend retired from football and he's not that old. He was on the Patriots and the 49ers

and a few other things. And he's like, I'm happier than ever that I'm retired. He owns like a trading card store now. And he sells Pokemon cards and stuff. And he's just like, yeah, it's way better. It's way better. He's like, I'm in a better mood. I'm fitter than I was.

Cause I was like, are you gonna get fat? Cause you know, NFL training. He's like, no, I'm more ripped than I ever was. I'm happy than I ever was He's breeding his turtles. He's just like a nerdy reading his turtles. Yeah, he breeds out. Yeah, he's Shout out to Cassius Marsh. I don't think it's a secret and he's just like much happier now And I think it's because first of all you you start off by trying to do anything you can to get into the NFL Like you're abusing your body. Who knows what kind of substances

some of these high school kids might even be on. And I don't say that with evidence from him. I'm just saying, like, these are giant humans. That's not always natural. And even if it isn't natural, it's not good for you necessarily. Yeah, to be eating all that protein and stuff all the time at that age, like, it's just not good for you.

Then you get hit thousands of times, maybe, in the head, and now we know that that's cumulatively really, really bad for you. And your hips are hurting, your knees are hurting, and then you check the clock and you're like 32 years old. I'm 44, I don't have that many aches and pains. They're starting, but imagine when they start when you're 29, that's awful.

So I can't imagine it's like a happy lifestyle. You might succeed and get money, but then people you grew up with, especially if you grew up in a bad neighborhood, he told me a lot of these guys that grew up and are successful in the NFL, they got demons, man. Of course. There's a reason they are where they are.

They can take abuse. That's not something that usually well-adjusted kids are getting into. Was that good for you to watch, you know, the people you grew up with not succeed and die? Yeah. You know, like it's, you're coming from a trauma. The fact that you escaped the trauma is wonderful,

but there's guilt that's associated with that. And then also just, yeah, like having to adjust to, the fact that you have millions of dollars doesn't magically make what you went through okay. No, yeah, it's so funny to hear from, well, I shouldn't say funny, it's probably the wrong word. It's interesting to hear from people who have millions of dollars, billions of dollars,

and off camera, I'll be like, so, you know, where are you off to now? See the grandkids? And they're like, I don't have much of a relationship with my son. And you're just like, oh, that's not- Or they're like, oh, I'm going to this conference. And I go, why?

Yeah. You know, it's like, what? Yeah. You're not getting paid, right? And they're like, no, no, no. And you realize like, oh, you think a lot of success will buy like freedom and they're just as busy as you are

and doing a lot of the same stupid shit that you tell yourself that you would not do if you didn't have to. And then you realize, oh, it had nothing, it's a compulsion. There was one guy who I was talking to and he was stressed out about some real estate thing, not a deal, not like a business deal.

It was like something to do with his house. And I thought, you don't have somebody that handles like the landscaping at your home? And he's like, no, this isn't a home that I live in. I mean, it can, I do have, but it's one of, and I was like, how many homes do you have? This guy had 19 homes, not investment properties, homes. And I said, how often do you go there?

Because even if you spend a month in each one, you haven't gone there for over a year. And he's like, I went to this one before I bought it. No, no, no, no, I bought it before I saw it. And then I've only been there a couple of times, a couple of times for a couple of hours. This guy's not spent a night in this. I'm like, sell that.

How many hours this week have you spent trying to like hire a landscaper and a caretaker? First of all, why are you doing it? I mean 90% of this guy's life stress was like managing homes that he didn't need or use and I thought how did you You're smarter than this. Except for it's like you think you're smarter than this except for we're all just a microcosm of that. Yeah, I remember I was I was recording a remote podcast with someone who was worth many billions of dollars and they didn't know that it's, like I was in the room, you know, like the sort of waiting room of the digital.

And so they were on and I could hear them talking to like an assistant or whatever. And she's telling him about this property that he's looking at and he's like, how much is it? And she goes like, it's $88 million. And I go, okay. And I'm like trying to like make noise, like, how much is it? And she goes like, it's $88 million. And I go, okay. And I'm like trying to like make noise, like, you know, like I'm here, you know?

And it's like, he didn't have headphones in. Right, so he didn't. He's screaming. So I was like, I don't want, this is insane. I don't want to hear this is weird. But he goes, but is it nice? You know? Yeah, I think it's pretty nice.

And then she goes, I mean, you know, he's like, there's $80 million homes that are teardowns. You know, this is what he says, you know. They're called castles. That is not a thing. There is no such thing as an $88 million teardown. But yeah, you realize like, you can still find some way to be stressed

about just about anything. And that's what I think the thing that makes you a person, obviously there's inherited wealth and luck and whatever, but the thing that makes you a person, obviously there's inherited wealth and luck and whatever, but the thing that makes you the kind of person that you're in a position to buy an $88 million house or to be in the NFL is the kind of person that sucks the fun out of it. So you're going not just,

hey, this is the nicest house I've ever stepped foot in. You're like, is this nice enough for me? Or you're like, yes, I know I just played in the NBA finals, but in game three, I could have done better and that's what I'm focused on. That mind that makes you always wanna get better, by definition also has a tendency to suck the enjoyment out of the thing.

I would say one of the biggest gifts for having access to some of these people is seeing how just mundane a lot of their problems really are. Yeah. Right, like you'll talk to some guy who's got, he just upgraded his private jet or whatever. And he's like, I can't believe,

and it's just insert totally trivial problem here. And you're thinking like, you don't have seven layers of people that can help you with that. No, the coffee that you got from Starbucks was burned. Well, first of all, why are you getting your coffee from Starbucks? You should have known what you're getting into.

But yeah, it's something along those lines every single time. But even bigger, they have real big problems that it's amazing. It probably shouldn't be, but it is amazing to me that, and this is one of the reasons why I like the Daily Dad stuff, is it really, a lot of these guys are so focused

on the wrong stuff for so long, they've got rocket ship momentum in, let's say, business. So it's really easy, it's easier for them to lose sight of something like raising good kids or like making sure your relationship with them is functional. Raising kids is tough, right? It is, yeah. And so life is tough.

But if you are a master of the universe in the thing that you do, whether it's like kicking a football or trading stocks or painting or whatever, that thing, even though it's hard, even though 99.9% of the population can't do it as well as you can do that thing, it's gonna be easier and more soothing and less uncontrollable

than your seven-year-old or your 17-year-old or your spouse or whatever, right? And so you have this thing, you have this gift, which is you have something you're really good at and you really love, but you're always faced with this dilemma of like, do I do this hard thing over here or this easy thing over here that I get to tell myself is hard?

Exactly. And that I go, I'm being a great parent. I just made a billion dollars last year. What are you talking about? Well, your son has gotten caught shoplifting for the 30th time and you're bailing him out of prison or jail. So like, are you good at this whole thing?

Like you really have to look at the whole pie. But yeah, it's easy to focus on the slice you're really good at and that's comfortable for you. Yeah, where like the world feels shitty and unpredictable and confusing, and you're just like, I'm gonna go get, like the flow state is an addictive cocoon that probably is similar to, I mean, look,

I don't know what heroin feels like, but like there's something about it. She tried. Why not? Yeah, we could go around. There is something wonderful about it, right? And like other things are not wonderful. And so you have this,

are I gonna go to the wonderful thing that never lets me down that I have, I can turn on and off or this thing over here, which I can't turn on and off. Yeah, gosh. I feel like if I were in that position in business, I would not have kids, but that's like, that's wisdom that comes

from probably having kids and then going, oh yeah, you shouldn't have kids if you're gonna only focus on not kids. But you know what's funny? I think you and I have talked about this before. What I always think is interesting is you meet these like super successful people and they've done all this stuff and then they're like,

but what I'm really trying to do is start a podcast. Oh, yeah. That's always hilarious. For me, it's always like, but I've got this book idea. There's something about where like they've climbed, we climbed to the top of these mountains, and then we're like, but what I really want is this other mountain

that somebody else has. And usually that mountain is a more public facing mountain. I was gonna say it's fame actually. And look, I'm just a podcaster. I've had a taste of it, right? And I've got some questions when I interview you that we can talk about with that, but it amuses me to know and to meet somebody

who's got like a $150 million annual recurring revenue, or more, what do I know? Recurring revenue business. Like they fly private when they go to Cannes Film Festival and they've got a wife and they've got kids and stuff. And they're like, how did you get so many Instagram followers? And I'm like, is this a idle curiosity?

No, they'll hire someone that's producing essentially short films for their Instagram. And I'm like, how's that working out? They paid like $100,000 to get their name, just at their name. And I'm like, why would you do that? And he goes, man, I'm loving it. I get all these DMs from people and I'm coaching them and stuff

I'm like yeah, but like high school kids or whatever and he's like yeah, but it feels great I'm like you've built this massive thing and all you wanted was validation from like literal children. Yeah, it's a yeah Have you ever heard of the term nuclear family? The term was coined by an anthropologist in the 1920s to describe the family structure of a straight married couple and their kids. Well now, over a century later, that definition of family describes only 18% of American households. From this is actually happening comes the 82% Modern Stories of Love and Family, a six-part series focused on those who have challenged some of our deepest

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Or I think about it like when I see like a president on book tour or something and you're just like, oh, like you, six months ago you had command over nuclear weapons and now you're at the like Los Angeles book festival and you're looking out and you're like, oh, there's not that many people just like I'm doing. Like there's something, there's like- I had more people on Air Force One this time last year.

What's going on? There's just something desperate about it that like, again, I think in the Stokes talk about this, you see it and it isn't like, oh, I'm so much better than them. But you're like, oh, the desperation never goes away. Like it's always, unless you do something about it, it never goes away.

Well, that's why I don't want it to sound like I'm making fun of these people. I'm actually making fun of myself. Because at the end of the day, they're like, maybe I'll do this podcast thing. And I'm like, no, it's pathetic. We're all pathetic, stop. Don't get that out of your mind.

It's not as cool as you think it is. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's like, you're the Prince of Wales, calm down. You can just go golfing or something, man. yeah. And it's like, you're the Prince of Wales, calm down. You can just go golfing or something, man. Right. No, but we can't, we can't not be busy. And then I think the idea that other people over there,

people who are potentially not as talented as you, have a bigger audience than you, that is so incredibly distressing to certain people. They have, and it has to- Certain people like me. No, something has to be done about it. You're like, I can't just be me and I've done what I do. I also need this thing that they have.

Yeah, well, that drives, I mean, trust me, the comparison thing is a whole, it's a whole thing. And what's worse, look, I would love it. Look, if you sell more books than me, which you have, cause I don't have any books, and that's not the only reason, I'm fine with it. That is 100% of the reason. Yes, yes.

In another sense. It's both all and none of the reason at the same time. Schrodinger's fail. But that's fine, right, for me. I don't care. But when I see somebody who does really terrible interviews and they're getting massive traction, I just go, what am I, what's, what when I see somebody who does really terrible interviews and they're getting massive traction, I just go, what am I, what's, what am I, chopped liver?

And also I should have just started creating content for stupid people because that's clearly what this is. You know, and you start realizing like, okay, I'm being salty about this, it's not healthy. I should probably spend zero time thinking about this. It's almost like a vice, but vice is usually pleasurable and this is the opposite of that. So I'm not sure what you would even call that.

Yeah, Joseph Epstein wrote this essay once on the seven deadly sins and he said, envy is the only sin that's no fun. Yeah, that's, yeah, exactly. And I think about that all the time, right? Like you're torturing yourself. Like at least the other pleasures are pleasurable. Right.

This is a thing you're not supposed to do that only punishes you. The person you're jealous of doesn't even know. And by the way, if they didn't know, it would probably make them feel good. It made them feel good. You're shitty. So it's, yeah, jealousy is something

that you try to push away. And then you realize, like, first off, you have no idea what that person is actually doing. You have no idea how real any of those numbers are. I remember I was talking to Molly Bloom once and we were talking about something, we were like, how, this doesn't make any sense. It doesn't add up.

Oh, that's funny, I just texted her this morning. On the way here. While we were sitting here, we were talking about someone afterwards, we were like, this doesn't add up. And she was like, maybe they're a criminal. And I was like, oh, I would never have thought that, but that could be true.

Funny, she's like, trust me, maybe they're a criminal. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. She was like, oh no, there could just be actual fraud happening. I'm thinking like, no, we're competing in a race and they're winning and therefore I'm losing. And she's like, you have no idea, like it could be a result of something you would never do.

So you never know. And then there's also this thing you realize when you talk to a lot of those people that they're also jealous in some days of you. So there's this irony of like, you meet a billionaire and you're like, wow, what would it be like to have all this? And then they're like,

can you give me advice on how to write a book or do a podcast? You realize like they want what you have and you're both just stupidly not being grateful for what you have. It's funny you mentioned Molly Bloom, cause like I said, I was just talking to her this morning on the way have. It's funny you mentioned Molly Bloom, because like I said, I was just talking to her this morning on the way here.

She is so insightful with that stuff. And in part because she was also doing something that got her door kicked down by the FBI. And just knowing how normal a lot of these folks are is so liberating in some way. I think this is something you said in an email newsletter or on a podcast a while ago that I've always tried to remember is if you want something that someone else has,

you have to trade your whole life with that person. Does that sound familiar? So whenever I think like, oh, look at this person, look what they have built. It's like, okay, wait a minute, I want to meet this person and or their close friend and be like, what are they really like? Well, they have sleep problems and they stay up

till five o'clock in the morning every night because they have massive anxiety. So they're working like 20 hours a day. And they don't have any real relationships in part because of the anxiety thing or because they don't have time or because they're on the road 350 days a year doing the thing.

And you go, ooh, I don't actually want that life. I just wanted the part where they got to hang out with this person and they got to cash that check. I don't want the part where they can't have kids. You're thinking you can transport your brain and your values into that person and into that life as if their life and what they have is not a product of their brain and their values.

Yes, exactly. And it seems like a really good idea at the time. But once you realize you cannot do that, like their broken brain that doesn't let them sleep more than three hours a night and is causing them like to die young or age prematurely and not have close relationships and be completely dysfunctional in many areas of their life.

That's why they have a 30 year career as an A-list musician or whatever. And, but yes, you don't want the rest. Conversely, if you would take the trade, if you're like, oh, no, no, no, no, they're better across the board. Then you're like, oh, okay, I need to start making changes in my life to be more,

it's not like everyone's a phony and shitty, right? Of course, of course. Sometimes you meet people and you go, oh, they're happier than me, they're trying less hard than me, they're chiller than me, and their thing is more meaningful. And you're like, oh, okay, You know, like, they're chiller than me and their thing is more meaningful. And you're like, oh, okay, what are the choices

that they're making that got them there? I want to make more choices like that. And then you can kind of have this person in your mind, you're like, okay, what would they do in this situation? That's a really good way to look at it. It's easy for me to focus on the negatives because we were just talking about envy, but you're right, there's a lot of folks where you go,

how does this person have so much energy? Oh, they're in really good shape. How are they in such good shape? Well, they don't right. There's a lot of folks where you go, how does this person have so much energy? Oh, they're in really good shape. How are they in such good shape? Well, they don't drink. Maybe I should stop drinking. Okay, well, look at, how are they not getting fat and gray while they eat right?

Oh, they have a trainer and they work out all the time. All right, well, I guess I actually have to do that. My wife told me a long time ago, this is years and years and years ago. It was like my seventh year podcasting and I had Robert Greene coming on, who you're obviously super familiar with. You might have even interviewed him

now that I think about it. That sounds right. And I was like, I don't wanna screw this up because it's gonna be embarrassing. Yeah, I think you did introduce me to him. And I was like, Ryan's gonna be embarrassed that he made the intro. Robert Greene's gonna be like,

why did I do that stupid podcast? So I read his whole book. And I usually wasn't doing that to prepare for shows. Oh, interesting. And I read it and Robert Greene was like, doing that to prepare for shows. Oh, interesting. And I read it and Robert Greene was like, this is a really good interview. You're pretty good at this. Why do you think, you know, and I remember going,

that's because I read the whole book for the first time. I treated it seriously. Yes, and I told my wife and I go, man, I wish I could read the book for every episode. And she goes, you could. And I'm like, no, no, it's just too much work. And she goes, yeah, I mean, but you could. You just don't really, like, that's just not really what you want to work. And she goes, yeah, I mean, but you could.

You just don't really, like that's just not really what you wanna do. But yeah, I guess you just have to make a choice. Do you want every interview to turn out really well or do you just wanna like kind of make it easy on yourself? And I went, I like took that deep, like, oh, you're right, honey, kind of sigh. And now I read every book for every interview.

And it's part of my reputation is, wow, you're prepared for this. It's like actually a good interview and not like clearly just reading the back cover and. Yeah, and look, I'm sympathetic to journalists who have 15 minutes to prepare for something. That's a real thing. You have a boss being like,

here are the eight things you gotta do this week. But if you're an entrepreneur, if you run your own shop, you can prioritize reading for 10 hours a week. You have to. If you don't, you can prioritize reading for 10 hours a week. You have to. If you don't, you're commoditizing yourself as the person that one out of 50 interviews they're gonna do that month or whatever, where you didn't read the book,

you got the publicist's like 10 question sheet, read the first chapter, and you think like, I'm faking my way through it. And the author goes, oh yeah, the thing I get asked every single episode because it's in the first chapter. Sure, here's my autopilot response. Have you interviewed Brian Johnson?

Yes, a long time ago, yeah. Yeah, I think that's so interesting because I was thinking about this because one of his videos popped up and I was like, okay, so you want to live forever. And what you want to live forever for is to make these videos. It says like, here's how I solve sleep.

Or it was like, so you sold a company for like a hundred million dollars. You've apparently conquered human- I think it was like, here's how I solve sleep. Or it was like, so you sold a company for like a hundred million dollars. You've apparently conquered human- I think it was like 800 million dollars. Yeah, whatever. Human mortality. And then you're like, and now that I have all this free time and freedom, I'm gonna be a YouTuber.

There's something weird. There's something hilarious about it. I interviewed him probably four or five years ago. He was talking about brain machine interfaces, which I think maybe is still a part of what he's doing, I hope, because I feel like that's a really worthwhile pursuit. Somebody's got to do it, aside from Elon.

Good to have some competition in this space. But now you're right, now he's like doing the YouTube thing. And my thoughts, look, he wants to live forever and crack that, cool. You mentioned freedom though. I don't know, man. He doesn't eat after 10 a.m. That's for me would not, that's not eating after 10 a.m. That's for me would not.

That's not eating after 10 a.m. Like you want to- What's the point of waking up? My God, why don't you get out of bed, pal? He never drinks. Okay, I don't really drink either, so fine. And he's discovering, I think a lot of things like, oh, even wine at 9 a.m. disrupts sleep.

Like that's a worthwhile thing. But to me, it just seems like a regimented lifestyle. That means, and also you don't know you're gonna live to be 200. disrupt sleep, like that's a worthwhile thing. But to me, it just seems like a regimented lifestyle that means, and also, you don't know you're gonna live to be 200. You could get hit by a bus tomorrow. There was some guy, I don't think I'm making this up, but he was like an expert on like aging,

like in the seventies, like he was like, he wrote this book about how to like live forever. And he was on like the Tonight Show or some late night show and he literally died on the show, giving an interview about how he's gonna live forever. And he was on like the tonight show or some late night show and he literally died on the show. Giving an interview about how he's gonna live forever. No, it's fucking hilarious. Because this is what we do, right? Like death is undefeated.

And we think like anytime you hear someone who's like, oh, I've conquered it or I figured it out or I'm, people are like, oh, I'm planning to live to be 113. And you're just like, first off, I've met 113 year old. And I mean, I was glad he was alive, but he wasn't like, didn't seem like he was, seemed like he was ready to go, you know? But like, there's something silly about it,

which the Stoics talk about, Mark Struthers is like, so you're afraid of, he's like, ask yourself, am I afraid of death because I won't be able to do this anymore? And I think that's so funny. To me, that's the funniest thing in all of Stoicism because we think life is so important and majestic and wonderful, and there are moments of it, but it's like, you wanna live forever

and then you're on hold with customer service and you should be, to me, it's in those moments, I'm like, oh yeah, it's not that important to live forever. Life is fucking stupid. Not nihilistic. I have my children I love my work, but but life is also so dumb being a human is so dumb We're just walking around in these skin suits like dial. Yes spinning in space. It's ridiculous And so there's something about like I just thought it was so funny. I'm gonna live forever now Now that I know I'm gonna live forever

I just thought it was so funny, like, I'm gonna live forever. And now, now that I know I'm gonna live forever, YouTube's obviously where it's at. I need likes. I need so many YouTube subscribers. Yeah, to me, it's a little bit nuts. My kids are starting to ask those existential questions. Like, my son, he's almost five, and he's like, will the Earth ever explode?

And I'm like, oh, no. I mean- You learn that fact about the sun, and then you're like, worried. Right, yeah, like, I don't know, maybe that's where he got it. Like, the sun's. You learn that fact about the sun, and then you're like worried. Right, yeah, like I don't know, maybe that's where he got it. Like the sun's gonna turn into a red giant or something. And I'm like, we're gonna be long gone by then, buddy. Like either all of humanity or at least you and I.

And he's like, oh, you're gonna die? And I'm like, oh crap, that's not really the can of worms I meant to open at this particular point in time while I'm trying to get you strapped into the damn car during school. But yeah, I have to have those sorts of conversations with him and it's like, and you can just see the wheels turning and I'm like, I really hope I'm not setting you up to have like a traumatizing day where you're thinking about everybody dying or something like that.

And it's sort of, but to highlight your point of how absurd it all is, it's like, buddy, you're almost five. Worrying about the sun turning out, whether the earth is gonna explode or something like that. These are really things that I hope you're not losing sleep over. On the other hand, you don't wanna lie to your kids and be like, this will never happen. We're always gonna be fine.

Because I feel like whenever you do that, you just hope they don't remember that you've lied to them and then later on you can correct the impression. But it's not, I really feel like that's not how it works. How do you think it works? I think you have to, before we were, probably before we were recording, we were talking about your kid losing something

from McDonald's he got like three years ago. And I think if I say, no, mommy's gonna live forever, put your seatbelt on. And then a year later, I tell him, well, everybody dies. He'll be like, well, wait a minute. Which one of those is true? Which one of those is true? Which one of those is true because I'm pretty damn sure you told.

I think kids' memories are amazing because they don't have that much that they are actually concerned about. They're concerned about Legos, French fries that they're currently eating and like Sonic the Hedgehog on the Netflix thing. So the Netflix thing, that's how I know I'm old. I think it's actually on Amazon Prime.

It's called a television. It's on Netflix. Have you watched the one? Yeah, there's Netflix, there's the cartoon. But have you watched like the Netflix, that's how I know I'm old. It's called a television. It's on Netflix. Have you watched the one? Yeah, there's Netflix, there's the cartoon. But have you watched like the movie, the Sonic movie with James Marsden? No.

It's so good. Is it really? It's like the sweetest movie. That's funny, my kid loves Sonic. Yeah, my kid's too. It's funny because I thought that's a character that doesn't really have longevity. I was like, eh, but then now I look at it

and I'm like, oh my gosh, Sonic's 30. This is, I'm sure, rivetingly people, but watch the Sonic movie, like Jim Carrey's in it, he's incredible. Oh really? He's the mustache guy. Oh, that's perfect. He's so good, but you watch it and you're like,

oh, how did you make this into like a sweet, like how did you imbue Sonic the character? They make him this like little boy that basically crashes to earth from an outer place and all he wants to be is like a regular kid with parents. Like Pinocchio? Yeah, yeah, it's very Pinocchio-esque and it's very good. It's like extreme.

I found it almost like tear-jerkingly good. I love stuff like that. My kids probably never sat through a movie. Yeah, movies are new for us. How old are your kids now? Seven and five. Okay, so I'm like, can he sit through a whole movie? We went to a movie at a movie theater the other day

for like the first time. What was that, If Movie, which I actually didn't think was very good, but it's about imaginary friends. It's that John Krasinski made a movie about imaginary friends. It was supposed to be good. I thought it was ridiculous, but, or not ridiculous because it's supposed to be absurd,

but I didn't make any sense. It was not, I didn't think it was good, but- He's never coming on the show now. Yeah, I know. I'm just- Edit that out, Claire. Did you see, there, actually, I wrote a Daily Stoke email about it and I was thinking about it as I was talking.

There's this clip of Tina Fey and she's talking to Bo and Yang from SNL. And he had started to say something about like a movie he didn't like. And she was like, uh-uh. And he's like, what? And she's like, you're way too famous for this. And she's like saying your real unvarnished opinions

about stuff. She's like, you can't talk shit about a movie. You might wanna be in a movie with that director at some point. That's a good point. You have no idea what went into that movie. She's like, all the times that I've said stuff like that, I've come to regret.

She's like, I'm speaking off the cuff as if I am a person and I'm not a person. I'm just like, you wouldn't just talk shit about one of your coworkers or whatever. You wouldn't do that. Like not on recording, obviously. Right, sorry, Brian Johnson. She was like, you can't just talk shit about one of your coworkers or whatever, you wouldn't do that. Like not on recording, obviously. Right, sorry, Brian Johnson. She was like, you can't do that.

And to me, what I was thinking about it, like one of the interesting things in the Stokes is like, Seneca never talks shit about Nero. Like he has the worst boss of all time and nowhere in his writings has he talked about this. And that's always been like a knock against him. And then you're like, oh wait, of course not. He would have been executed.

He would have been executed. Yeah. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode. If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, would you

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