The Daily Stoic - Whitney Cummings on Routines, Creating Great Art, and Addiction (Pt 1)

Episode Date: November 25, 2023

On today’s episode of the Daily Stoic podcast Ryan speaks with Whitney Cummings, comedian, actress, writer, producer, director, entrepreneur, and host of the hit podcast “Good for You". In part 1 of 2 they discuss having no sense of what life is because you’re not living one, discipline is really important in the beginning but it’s important to know when to update, Rerouting addictive behavior and her latest uncensored stand-up special "MOUTHY" on Only Fans TV (OFTV).IG, X, and Tiktok: @WhitneyCummingsTo follow her on OnlyFans @Whitney✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I told this story before, but the first Airbnb I stayed in was 15 years ago. I was looking for places to live when I wanted to be a writer and we stayed at this house, I think outside Phoenix. And then when I bought my first house here in Austin, I would rent it out when South by Southwest or F-1 or all these events. My wife and I would go out of town and we'd rent it and it helped pay for the mortgage and it supported me while I was a writer. You've probably had the same experience.

You stayed in an Airbnb and thought, this is doable. Maybe I could rent my place on Airbnb. And it's really that simple. You can start with a spare room or you can rent your whole place when you're away. You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. Maybe you set up a home office during the pandemic

and now you don't need it because you're back at work. Maybe you're traveling to see friends and family for the holidays. While your way, your home could be an Airbnb. Whether you could use extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home could be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca-host. Hey Canada, ever wish that managing your money could be a whole lot easier and way less stressful? That's why Coho is created. The financial app that's going to revolutionize

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$20 or more using the code DailyStoic20. Again, sign up for your free trial by downloading the Coho app and receive 20 bucks off when you make your first purchase of $20 or more using the code DailyStowic20. Everyone leaves a legacy. I like Mr. Gorbachev. We can do business together. For some, the shadow falls across decades, even centuries. It is unacceptable to have figures like roads glorified. centuries. But it also changes. Reputations are reexamined by new generations who may not like what they find. From wandering and goal-hanging podcasts, I'm AfroHersh. I'm Peter Frankertpern.

And this is Legacy. A brand new show exploring the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. To find out what their past tells us about our present. Smeena Simone was constantly told to sit down and shed up your angry black woman. The name of Napoleon still rings out in the pattern of the guides who thrive on the tourist trade. Binge and tyre seasons of legacy add free on Amazon Music. All listen weekly wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic.

Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Soap Podcast. I am recording this at the end of an incredibly long week. I did eight talks in the last seven days, a remote one in Columbia, in person one in Austin, one I spoke to Jay Sock, the joint special operations command in Fayetteville, North Carolina. I did one in outside Boston, then home, then I just did a talk in Las Vegas last night, landed in New Orleans,

and then drove this morning down to the beach to take the family on vacation. A bunch of virtual talks in between their plus regular stuff had somebody quit. Just a lot. It's a long, long week, but I got to cap it off with a little conversation on leadership for one of the daily still challenges. And now I'm going to go for a walk, calm down a little bit. And then tonight I'm gonna watch something that I'm very excited to watch,

which is Whitney Cummings new comedy special. I'll tell you how to get it in a second, but the only reason I haven't watched it yet is it didn't come out before we did our interview. And then the week has been so crazy. I haven't had a chance to watch it, but I'm super excited because she's hilarious. And she and I had become friends over the last couple of years,

actually Robert Green connected us, although I have seen her on a million shows and watched her comedy for a long time. She's hilarious, she's smart, she is a brilliant writer, producer, director, entrepreneur. At the same time, she created and starred in an NBC series called Whitney. And she was the co-creator and co-writer of the syndicated Emmy-nominated CBS comedy series, Two Broke Girls. She's done a ton of different specials, which you can check out on all the

the streaming platforms. And her new special, Malfi, is actually on OnlyF. Not only fans, you're thinking of this is OFTV, it's their platform for free-to-view, safer work streaming platform, and app, like there's no nudity or anything. One of my, one of my, Rachel, my podcast producer wrote this in the intro. She said, to see Whitney's only fans go to At Whitney on only fans, and then she put in parentheses, I never thought I'd write that at work, which is hilarious. It's not something I thought I would be saying

in the intro of a Daily Stoke podcast, but I know this special is gonna be hilarious. And we had an awesome two-hour conversation in Austin at the Pant and Porch. She came out and you can tell this is a tough lady. She may have had her son. By the time you are listening to this, I know she was very, very pregnant when she came out.

She flew from the West Coast, landed in Austin, took a car straight from the airport to the painted porch studio, and then sat uninterrupted for two and a half hours, did not ask to go to the bathroom once, which will come up at the beginning of this episode. You'll see. But we had an awesome conversation.

I'm so honored she came on. You can follow her on every platform at Whitney Cummings than on OnlyFans She's at Whitney. Check out her new special, Malthy, it came out on November 15th. It was recorded in front of a soul of that live audience at the LA Comedy Store, and it's her sixth career special.

She's hilarious. Thanks for coming on Whitney. You'll have part two of this episode coming later this week. I think that it maybe was is my fault too, because I talk openly about having misophonia, which is kind of when you hear noises very loudly, which is part of, you know, you also hone it being a standup. You know, I can hear a candy wrap or open.

I can hear someone the difference between the laugh and a fake clap and a real clap, you know. I can hear when people are getting up, all that kind of stuff. And some of it they say is genetic also could be from growing up in a like I'll call a comb, like developing that hyper vigilance like needing to always sort of like, you know, have your ear to the floor type of thing. And so I talk about that. And like people chewing, loud chewing, that kind of stuff. So I think I probably get a lot of people that are like that. And then I go ahead and betray their trust by having people eat all the podcast.

Yeah, it's like you're eating actually a highly sensitive microphone. It's like most disgusting. It is pretty gross. And I mean, but some people like it. I feel like ASMR, is that what it was called? Yeah. Had a big moment. Yeah, I think people are into that.

Yeah, but it was pretty gross. Yeah, if you see, there's like a video where this lady she goes around and she just like touches things on a very expensive car. And then, and then it's then it actually sounds very nice. Soothing? Yeah, when you just realize like, oh, there's a reason this car costs $300,000 that all the different things are of a higher quality.

I wonder if there's some kind of association based on your ancestral lineage slash trauma, slash genetics, epigenetics of the sounds you find soothing and where you're from. Like tearing paper is soothing to me. Right. Unless maybe you have some sort of traumatic memory associated with something like paper cut or something. Yeah. Yeah. But like I just like the tearing of the paper, the other, the whispering doesn't do anything for me. I guess I do like it when people whisper a tiny bit. Like NPR voice? Not Terry Gross. I don't find her particularly soothing. But yeah, kind of. Sometimes I wonder there's got to be some kind of association for why we enjoy

some sounds and don't. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. You good? That's for a smarter guest, yes. I don't think anyone cares. Remember I was supposed to do your podcast in LA. Yes. And then you couldn't. And you I remember you being like it seemed like it was extremely difficult for you to reschedule something. I take other people's time very seriously and especially when it's people I look up to in respect. And I was so honored that you said yes in the first place. And I just, I think I have this thing in my head

where I like think people already think I'm like an L.A. asshole. Oh, sure. And like rescheduling is just like a flaky thing to do. Yeah. But I also think that when you're too unctuous and apologetic, when you do reschedule, that's annoying. Sure.

No, I wondered if it was hard for you to, like you were like, I'm not feeling well. I had this thing, this medical thing I have to do. And I was like, say no more, like it, who cares? But it seemed like it was very hard for you to not do something even though you were putting your health first. I was like admitting I had a human limitation.

Is that what it was? And that's embarrassing. Yeah, that's a little embarrassing to me. And I think there's also with you, I've wanted to have you on for so long, you're not in town that often. You know, I am able to reschedule pretty easily with people that live in town. Sure.

But I do, like, I'm in Austin for a week. I've spent the last two weeks putting my schedule together and routing stuff and that whole kind of thing. So in my brain, I'm like, well, he could have scheduled something else in this and this. Right. And we don't really know each other yet. So I was probably a little more apologetic with you than I normally would have been with other people. Well, the sick thing is interesting to me because it's like and COVID brought it to the forefront where it's like if you're sick, you should not do stuff.

But we have this kind of like a wall power through because it would be rude not to and it's like no, it's like I was supposed to go hunting with someone on Sunday morning and he canceled the last minute and he was like I'm not feeling well. I took a COVID test. I know it's not COVID, but he was like, I know you have kids and I know you travel a lot. So I'm just not going to do it. And I was like, he was like, please don't be mad. And I was like, be mad. This is like the nicest thing anyone has done for me in some time. Like I was like, I wish everyone was like you. And especially with having a conversation with you where I'd wanna be on point and be sharp,

like if you're sick or distracted or I'll cancel these days when I'm tired. Yeah. Because I'm like, right now I have to show up with my brain being 100% people are gonna be listening to this, they expect it to be smart and interesting. If I'm even at 99% let's reschedule. Right.

So I'm normally pretty good about it because I just think about the product And I'm like if I'm forcing myself to do something and I'm unsuitified and I'm tired and I'm distracted like it's not gonna be a good podcast But see I've been thinking about that because part of life is Pushing through when you don't want to do something when it doesn't feel like it's coming right you have to like develop this sort of tenacity this stick to itness and it's coming, right? You have to like develop this sort of tenacity, this stick to itness. And, you know, you have these days where like, you, the resistance is telling you don't do it. Yep.

And you have to push through. Yep. And then you have these other days where you're sick or you're tired or you're just not at 100%. And what is the lot, like, what is the line between you're pushing through for the right reasons or you're not doing it? For the right reason. Can I give you a dumber example? Yeah, not being able to tell someone you need to get up and pee Yes, cuz like I'm thinking about something else. I have to pee I'm all of a sudden sub optimal and what am I embarrassed that I'm human? Yeah, like we've been sitting here for two hours

May I get up and use the restroom real quick? Like, that's a harder thing for me to do. Being sick, I kind of am a little more clear on it now. Like, I've sort of figured that stuff out, but I mean, I remember I went to a workaholic synonymous meeting once. Everyone was late. Yeah. But like 40 minutes, everyone rushed in

and we all got in trouble because it was a lot of sort of successful people and, you know, where I live and everyone was like, hey, love your work. And they're like, you can't say that here, you know, that's like saying, you're so entertaining when you drink, right? And one woman's bottom line was, I will get up and go to the bathroom when I need to pay. And I used to, I used to sit at my computer and think I had achieved something because I had to pay. Like I would kind of like see how far I was like edging or something. I wanted to see how far I could take it.

And I was like, why I'm thinking about something else, which means I'm not 100% focused on this, which means this has nothing to do with the work. This is some like self-depriving, masochistic, false sense of pain and gain that is not yielding the best work. Right. It took me a long time, like, on Rogan to go,

hey, can I get up and pee? We've been here for four and a half hours. It'd be weird if I didn't have to pee. Yeah. But then I would find myself getting less, interesting, less entertaining, less funny, because I was just like, do I ask, do I not ask?

And who are you impressing? They don't throw you like a parade for having helped a long time. No one gives you a check at the end. Yeah. So it's like, you went four hours and didn't pee. Right. And it's like, do you have a UTI?

Are you okay? Yeah. You shouldn't. Yeah. If you're taking care of your health, you should need to. Well, and there is this other thing I'm learning, which is when you do stuff like, I have to go to the bathroom or I'm tired, I'm not feeling it or I'm whatever, you're actually doing other people a favor because maybe they also have to do those

things. Being a service. Yeah, and so like, I found this with kids, which was you talk about later, but like, like, if I have to run to like pick up my kids or my kids to say, I like, I try and I have to get out of something because of it, I try to explain that it is a parenting related thing. Yeah. Because I think men especially, it's like they have this secret life where they also have children and a family. Right? Like, and it makes it harder. They have many secrets. But no, it like they don't have kids, pictures of their kids in their office. They don't talk about they don't talk about how their life or their routine or

their priorities have shifted as having a kid. And so it makes it harder for other people. Like that becomes normative. So it's like, oh, don't talk about this. That's not what we do. When really we should be having the opposite effect, we should be making the opposite contribution, which is making it okay to have reasons

that you don't do things. And so I think when you're like, I'm tired, I'm not feeling it right. You're not just speaking up for yourself, but you're also making it clear that that's an okay thing to do. If someone doesn't take care of themselves, it's a really big red flag.

Martyrs are really troublesome. It's taken me a long time to realize that. I was raised in a way that you were rewarded for how self deprivation, you know how much self deprivation you could tolerate, how self contained you were and how little you complained. That served me really well in sports. It served me really well in my family environment, but the root of that is insecurity, right? Like you won't like me if I have a human limitation and insecure people are dangerous. These are people that are trying to be liked. Is anyone like,

I really liked her. She didn't pee the whole time. You know what I mean? Like, I really like that guy. He has four kids and didn't bring them up once. Isn't he awesome? Like, no one thinks that's cool. Yeah, except we do, like, if you are someone who is putting

other things in front of the work thing, I think you are worried you're gonna have a reputation of being difficult or you're gonna have a reputation of being selfish or not totally invested. I think it depends on what the job is and how you do it. I think that if you're someone, for me, when I'm hiring, it's a huge advantage to me if someone is a parent because to me that already means they know how

to diffuse conflict. Moms and dads are the best in a room where writers are fighting because they're like, hey guys, do you need water? Yeah. Because anyone need a snack. Do you want to go take a nap? Right. Because usually that's the reason there's conflict going on, right?

And they talk to people kind of in very simple ways the way you would kids. They're great at time management. They're tolerance for dramas just like so much higher what they find. Yeah. And I was, I was, you know, and also moms want to get you out earlier, you know, it's like I love working with moms in LA because the writers rooms used to start at 10. For a mother, that's like two hours to kill between the time you drop your cut.

So, but like, let's start at 9.30 and be done at 3. You know, so it's like, and they get stuff done so much, they're like octopus as they have so many tentacles that can multitask and do 50 things at once. So I think to have any kind of shame about having priorities in your life, in love in your life, and I'm always excited about the perspective that comes with that, you know, of going like,

can we ask a mom what she thinks about this? Can we ask a father? Like, he probably actually has perspective on something like this. But I've talked to athletes about this. It's like an athlete has to know how to play hurt, but can't play through injury, right? There's this, right? So it's like, if can't play through injury. Right?

There's this tent, right? So it's like, if you only play when you're feeling 100%, you're never going to play. Yeah. And you're just frankly not tough enough to do this thing at the pro level. Sure, sure. And yet, if you're constantly ignoring what your body is telling you, that's when you blow out your knee or you take what could have have been minor injury and you turn it into a major injury. So knowing that line, that's really the tough part. And you got to know yourself and

you got to know when to blow it out. So for me, I'm kind of a dork probably twice a week when I want to give up or be a brat. I watch Carrie's drug at the Olympics. Do you remember Carrie's drug? When she's doing on the bad leg or whatever? Yeah, so it was like between her, of course, always Russia. Her and Russia, America's down like three points in gymnastics. Yeah. First tumble she did breaks her ankle. Sure. She's got to be, do a perfect score for the next one to beat Russia. Yeah. She's never going to compete again. Yeah. This the next one to beat Russia. She's never gonna compete again. This is the time to do it, sticks the landing, tears,

anything else in her body perfectly collapses. I love moments like that. Where you're like, this is the moment I'm, I am injured, but I'm gonna push through it. But you really, I think that the winners know when to pull that stop out. So you don't do it in game one, you do it in game six. Yeah, like the Michael Jordan flu game

is a, it should be called the Michael Jordan flu playoff game. Love it. Love it. It's not a regular season game. It's not a preseason game. But yeah, it's like, hey, you wake up and your kid is sick. Do you take care of them or do you go, no, I'm someone who shows up and does my writing.

Like, I think one of the things that you need to have as an artist is kind of a sense of self-importance. Like you believe that this thing is the most important thing in the world, which it's not. Sure, sure. And so that tension between like I'm committed, I don't make excuses, I show up and do the thing every day, and then being a self-shassel.

Well, that's when you have to know yourself. You have to go, I'm going to, my kid is sick. I'm going to go write my book, but is my work going to be mediocre? Because I'm going to be thinking about my kid the whole time. Sure. Am I going to be distracted the whole time thinking about my kid?

Or do I split the difference? You're going, you know what? I'm going to do two hours. Not think about the kid once. He will be fine. Kids are resilient. Whatever my mom did speed when she was pregnant with me. Like, whatever, Pobisco, my gum, she'll be fine.

I'll show up in two hours. So I'll never know the difference. Or do you go nine hours and just split your attention all the time, you know? Yeah, and also I think some of it for me, early on, I was so insecure. But I'm sorry, do you go, hey, I'm gonna go write this book

because it's gonna pay for this kid's medical care, which is what he needs. You know what I mean? You gotta like find the way to be able to make sure that your focus is pure. But I feel like as I've gotten more competent and more secure at myself, I know I realize that any one day is not life or death. That's right. But you have early on, you have this sense, this almost delusional sense that like, if

I don't do it, then I won't do it the next day and I won't do it the next day. Yeah. And it's like, you know, I now know that's not true. I know that if I take one day off, it doesn't lead into a two-month slump where I don't do anything, because I've built that habit. And the reason you should be building that habit

or that capital with yourself is so you can spend it on things that matter, which is yourself or people that you care about. I actually think it's probably great to step away every now and then you and I were texting about this, like sort of like a Ruchinized life and I felt really kind of sloppy about being like, you know, I really, I used to have really obsessive routines

and you know, I was very regimented and I was producing very regimented work, you know, and I realized sometimes the best thing I can do is step away for a couple hours in order for our to imitate life you have to have a life, right? So it's like let me just allow life to inspire me and you know let's spontaneity happen, you know, I now know that the way that I'm built the amount of validation success I need in order to function is so high that even if I'm at 80%,

it's still gonna probably be overachieveable shit, you know, so a lot of times the best thing I could do is go to the farmer's market or quote-unquote waste time. I think as an artist, you're never wasting time. As a writer, as a philosopher, you're never wasting time. Because you're gonna go, oh, I have to run this errand and I'm gonna be taking away from my book and then you're gonna see some crazy shit

that happens at the pharmacy. And you're like, oh my God, I have to like write about that or I never thought about that, et cetera. then you're gonna see some crazy shit that happens at the pharmacy. And you're like, oh my god, I have to like write about that. Or I never thought about that, et cetera. Or you're gonna put in a podcast on the way and go, oh Ryan Holiday just said this thing, I need to go write this thing. Yeah, you're getting material and you have a greater sense

of that you're always working, even if you're not sitting at the... I found when I was working my hardest, I didn't have enough original ideas. I mean, I remember being in a writer's room and I was making a TV show and was working, you know, 18 hour days, weekends, killing it, banging out scripts, was doing two sitcom simultaneously,

and would be in the writer's room and it was a show about a couple, right? And we're pitching on to like, what would the couple do on like a Saturday night, you know? And someone was like, oh, well, what if they like, go to a baby shower? People don't go to baby showers. They went to like a wine tasting.

I'm like, oh, wine tasting. That's like a thing you do in a sitcom. They're like, Whitney, people have lunch. I'm like, what if they're home, like working on their, like making their side hustle a business? Like, what if they're trying to make their website into like a brand and they're like, Whitney, you know, you're, this is your work all of them. Yeah, you have they're trying to make their website into like a brand and like, Whitney, oh, this is your work, all of them.

Yeah, you have no sense of what life actually is because you're not living one. Yeah, not living one. When I, I remember right when my wife was pregnant, she was a bat. We were about to have kids. And I was being interviewed. This New York Times reporter is at my house and she was like, she was like, show me your routines. Oh, I'm like, walking her through all the stuff and she was like, how do you think your routine will change when you have kids?

And I was like, oh, I don't think it will change. That's what I said. I was like, I don't think it will change because I have this system and all of the kind. And of course, it totally blew my life up, but in a really good way, I was forced to, like because my routine was, although effective, fundamentally selfish

and self-indulgent. And so my day was revolving around me and my preferences, and then so somebody else or something else comes into that and it's forced, if forces you to first of eliminate all the inessential inefficient parts of your team in life because you're like, you realize what I've been doing in eight hours, I could probably do it for. Yeah. And then you also realize like that your consistency slash

regularity is also a form of fragility. Because you need it to be a certain way. And so and then you make it that way, and you build things around it as though you are in control, and that you can always make it this way. And you can't. And then life or children or something comes in and goes, actually fuck all that, start over. And that's actually really good.

So, I think in the beginning, it's really important for discipline. Like I see so many people that are like trying to start writing or trying to start comedy or whatever. start over and that's actually really good. So I think in the beginning, it's really important for discipline. Like I see so many people that are like trying to start writing or trying to start comedy or whatever. And in the beginning, I think it's like, get up, if you're gonna do stand up, get up five nights a week, right for an hour a day, get first thing in the morning when you have the most

energy before you get on your phone, make sure you're right. I think it's really important in the beginning, but then I think you gotta know when you can trust yourself. And know like, okay, like now, I kind of the best thing I can do is watch someone else's stand up. The best thing I can do is read a book. The best thing I can do is watch a movie, like a stupid watch, Paul Blart Mallcott.

You know what I mean? Or like, take care of my health. Or like, go stretch or something. You know, I think it's like important to know when it's time to update your software and update your routine and maybe make it less rigid after a while. Because for me, it's like, I used to think, okay, I have to do like 50, I have to do an hour of this stand up. to update your software and update your routine and maybe make it less rigid after a while. Cause for me, it's like, I used to think,

okay, I have to do like 50, I have to do an hour of this standup of 50 cities everywhere in the country to make sure it works everywhere. For a special. For a special. Yeah, I'll be like, I need to make sure this works everywhere and I mean, to make sure it works in Wisconsin and works in Florida, works everywhere,

works in Vegas, cause that's a cross section of the world. And put it up. And now I'm kind of the point where I'm like, if I have a premise going or I'm incubating, I can hop on Zoom with like four comics. And be like, is there anything to this? Is this funny?

Have you heard this? And I kind of just say it? And you're like, yep, thumbs up. And I'm like, I got it. I know what to do. You know, whereas before, I'd be like, this isn't going to take me a year. And at the time it did, but then I had to update my software

and go like, I've got all these muscles in place now. And I need to know when I can trust myself and know the best thing I can do as an artist and as an observational person, is like, go to the grocery store, go sit in traffic, listen to somebody else talk out of your own head. I really like that updating the software metaphor

because I think, so there's two ways to think about it, right? One, which is it takes 50 hours to do a special or whatever, or it takes 50 hours, that's what it takes. And so any time you're trying to rationalize doing 40 hours or 30 hours, this other way, is you cutting corners and telling like you getting complacent or coasting, right? Which some people do. They get successful and they coast and they get worse.

I see a lot of things were pointing that out because a lot of people get mediocre, but a lot of times they get mediocre because they get in front of their fans who already have a vested interest in thinking this has to work. They already paid $50 and they got parking and they paid for a babysitter and they already know you're funny. Sometimes you got to get up not in front of your fans but your enemies. You got to get up in front of some comedians that don't want you to have a great next special, even if they're your friends, they're going to be competitive. And what you want at that point is I'm doing, oh, God damn it. That's funny. Shit. Yeah. I wish I thought of that. And I'm like, all right, I have something

there. But, but if doing it and getting better at it isn't also making you more efficient, like, or stronger at it than what does that say? Like the idea that it should take the same amount of time or cost the same amount of money or cost the same amount of whatever to, like, then you're maybe not getting better, right? Like, I should- I might be preparing different ways at this point.

So instead of going in front of a bunch of people who have already paid to see me and are you know me? And like me, I might go to a dinner party and be sitting next to someone that clearly we disagree on everything and run some shit by them. And just argue with them for a while and go like, okay, that was helpful. Yeah.

Just knowing like other ways, it's like, you know, to train. Yeah, it's like if my first book required me sitting in this chair, no exceptions for this amount of time, that's great, but now I've done that. So the next time it would be weird if I had to, I had to be stuck in the same box. And then as you do it more and more and longer, if you're not getting more efficient and the process isn't changing, then it feels like, that feels like probably the wrong way to do it too. So, and then also figuring out what year I'm so sorry to interrupt. I'm just so afraid I'm going to forget this

because I think it might be useful to your listeners. So I know our edification junkies like us, which is also going, what's my goal from the next one? I go, okay, these jokes were great in this one, but this next special, I want to be more conversational. So it's like my, like, I've done six specials. I've won, you know, this bout to come out, this more conversational.

The ones before I always wrote it out, right? I'm in front of a word document. Here's a joke. Here's a setup. This past one I went, you know what? I'm only going to talk into my voice memos when I'm walking. I'm just going to, and then I'm going to transcribe it later. Because I found myself, things were too surgical, they were too sharp, they were, I was all about

editing and not just about like flow. And I had a completely different process. I was like not even in an office, I was walking around, saying the jokes, working them out, sort of having a conversation with myself. I probably looked like a crazy person in my neighborhood, and then I transcribed it. So it was a completely different process.

Yes, and it should, that's also challenging yourself and being disciplined. Like the discipline to say, I'm going to do it differently, or like on one, a couple of books ago, I was like I'm going to start like every one of my books up until this point is been miserable writing it. I'm going to also not hate myself and make other people hate me while I do it. Like I'm going to enjoy it and not be I'm not going to let it like destroy me. And so that took a different kind of discipline and weirdly it, it took the discipline to say, I'm going to take today off instead of like insisting on doing it today or whatever. The idea of that discipline taking different forms to seek is a more masterful

understanding even of what discipline is. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and. We are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on, so do sit back and enjoy. Briden and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus, or wherever you get your podcasts. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

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at jiffyondemand.com and don't forget to use the code first for $25 off your first job. This is a weird mind trick that I'm gonna pitch. So the last like 10 or so years, my parents have been in hospitals, they had strokes very young. And so I've been in like ICU's and nursing homes and that kind of stuff. And it was so brutal for so long. I wrote a lot of comedy in the waiting rooms

of ICU's and stuff. And I was so excited to not be staring at death. And to be around such horror, I also would see sitcoms playing in the ICU rooms. I would see these families that were sobbing and then they'd be watching Reba and then they'd be around their dying relative and they'd be watching Seinfeld.

So there was kind of this magical thing happening that was like, okay, I'm gonna put something in that box that's gonna brighten people up, but I also needed the escape so badly. And I think that if you don't need the escape like that, don't poison your parents or anything, but I think it's also important to put yourself in a situation where the hard thing you're doing

is a respite. So whether it's, you're doing some brutal work out in the morning, or you're gonna go be of service and volunteer somewhere. Like I always tell people, like make it so that you have to do what you're doing. Make it so it's like a fun break. Like your drudgery of writing the thing

is kind of a fun respite from something else. Maybe it's a respite from having to deal with your kids that are freaking out, whatever it is. But I act that accidentally happen, and then I started doing it intentionally. I started going, oh, I'm going to go visit my mom, and I'll finish the script there, because I know I'll finish it in the lobby. I know that if I just stay home all day and do it here, I'm going to find a million other things to do. But if I go visit her and then go to a lobby for an hour, I will bang this out.

Yeah, maybe the question is, is like, am I doing the easy thing or the hard thing? Yeah. So it's like, are you laying around watching TV because writing is hard, you don't wanna write? Or are you saying no, like I'm gonna go, do this self-care day or I'm gonna do this? It's, if you're taking the easy way out, it's probably the wrong thing.

Because you're actually challenging yourself in some way. And that challenge can take a variety of forms. That's then you're probably doing the right thing. Do you ever bribe yourself? In what way? Like, I'll do like, if I finish five pages of this, I get to call my friend Nikki and tell her about that day last night. But not until I do five pages.

No, really. That's a small little silly treat, but then it's like, you know, or like if I get this done, I could have a steak for dinner. Like it's little things to kind of trick yourself. I've gone through a lot of these. I haven't done a lot of those in a while,

but little things like that have helped me before. No, I don't really do. I do that like when I'm like working out or like let's say I'm swimming, I think about it in small chunks. So I don't feel do that. I do that like when I'm like working out or like, let's say I'm swimming, I think about it in small chunks. So I don't feel like I'm swimming a mile and swimming seven sets of however many. And then I'm trying to create the momentum

of like finishing, you break it down. Little things. Because like to go like, if know the thing that you're addicted to and then reward yourself with it. So today it would probably be, okay, you know, if I write these five pages, I get to go on Instagram for 20 minutes. You know what I mean? Or just like finding a way to bribe yourself. I get to go buy something on Etsy for $50. Like whatever little thing.

I found with the other change I'm making and I wondered if when you were saying you're not a routine person, I think as I've gotten older, I've kids been doing this longer. I don't think about it as having a routine. I think about it as having routines, like plural. Like, I'm switching to a new routine because it's daylight savings. And it is not possible for me to run in the evenings where I live. So like now I have to get up earlier

and I have to do it in the morning. Right? And so there's the routine when on this day of the week, when both the kids are right? And so there's the routine when on this day of the week when both the kids are in school, and then there's a routine when only one of them is in school, and there's a routine where one of them sick, or there's a routine when I've been traveling, like I have different routines that I can sort of, I'm never like, oh, just do whatever I want today. It's like I have a book of routines that are all pre-approved.

And depending on the circumstances, I can pick one. And it's got like good practices in it. And as long as the day is mostly made up of those good practices, it was a good day. Can I actually tell you I lied to you? I do have some routines, but I guess they're a little're a little bit different than like the idea of you sit down and then you have this and you have the egg timer and that, like I've done all that and you have the note cards, minor actually more about like hygiene and the day before.

Oh. So little things that are going to throw you an hour off the next day, which making sure I have no excuse to procrastinate, right? Identifies a perfectionist. I know you talk about this a lot. Perfectionism leads to procrastination, which making sure I have no excuse to procrastinate, right? Identifies a perfectionist. I know you talk about this a lot. Perfectionism leads to procrastination, which leads to paralysis. So the computers plugged in the night before the chargers in the wall. There's an extension cord.

If my back hurts, the heating pads already plugged in. I'm not going to spend 20 minutes the next day being like, well, where's the heating but where is the extent? You know what I mean? Getting ahead of it, like cleaning the office ahead of time because I'll take the opportunity to go, well, these mugs from last night, it's the next day being like, well, where's the heating, but where's the extent, you know what I mean? Getting ahead of it, like cleaning the office ahead of time, because I'll take the opportunity to go, well, these mugs from last night, it's cleaned up. Also, a big thing for me is because I work from home.

A lot of people do now, no working in pajamas. You're getting up, you're washing your face, you're brushing your teeth, you're putting on underwear. In my case, it's always a thong, because that's just psychologically like, we're awake. Socks, shoes. You all, I always wear sneakers inside when I'm writing, or read.

Red dressing for work. That's right. Dressing for work is a huge one. If you're just like in your pajamas, jammies, and like roll up, and there's like, it's a mess, like, I personally can't get focused. I'm putting like lotion on, like, I got my tea tree oil, like,

I do have a little spruce oil and a tea tree oil because I think a little smells like that, just help with Pavlovian cues, that sort of thing, and I turn my phone in the store, I mean, the phone I have to put in the other room, but I do not disturb, just little things like that, just to eliminate future distractions. Yeah, I like to dress in as though it's serious,

one of the reasons we got this whole place was working from home, it's hard to have boundaries. That's right. And so going to the office is good, but I do the same thing, even though the pandemic, it's like I don't really wear regular clothes anymore. I'm mostly wearing workout clothes, but it's like, Well, you wear under them,

like, underwear, clean underwear, clean socks and shoes. For me, it's showering and shaving in the morning, even though I can't really grow a beard, but the process of being clean-shavin' is to me a message to myself that like, work is starting and you're wiping the slate clean and you're an adult.

Pavlov's, what it did, I dropped. Whatever the thing is for you that makes you up in signals like we're working now. Yes. And do you have those for different things? Like I have like my on the road ones, like I shower before I give a talk and I crank it to cold at the end.

Or you know, like I do certain things. Like there's not just the general routine, but there's also the kind of little like before you go on stage rituals. Do you have? The before I go on stage rituals are normally like just about hydrating and eating and that kind of thing

and make sure the sharpies are in play. Like afterwards, there's like me and greets. It's kind of more being prepared for what happens afterwards when people rush to the stage. I want to have my sharpies. You know, I got to make sure there's a clock on stage, sound check,

kind of stuff like that. I think now I'm at the point as a stand up where I want to be as spontaneous as possible when I go on stage. But I think for me, the routine is more about having, you know, four or five references and jokes about the specific city that will make them feel special, you know, which is, you know, maybe more applicable to people that go in for job interviews or speaking on podcasts

or something, like doing research about the place that I am so that I go out there and I'm not just doing a generic show that I do in every city. Like I have a couple of things in my back pocket which makes me feel like way more free. Like I know that the grocery store is buckies instead of giant or whatever.

And I'll like read the news of the city, like local news. So that when something comes up and someone yells something out, it's like, oh, well, there's a serial killer that just pushed someone off a bridge or whatever it is. So I think it's just more making sure that I'm super prepared to be spontaneous. There's a flow bearer code. It's something like if you can be orderly in your personal life.

Orderly and regular in your personal life. You could be brave and violent in your professional life. Yeah. And so the idea of being chaotic and spontaneous on stage or in the work whether it's painting or writing or the sales call, it starts by being somewhat orderly in the other stuff. Orderly and regular. And this is, I live by this quote, so interesting. You brought it up, you know, because I you were we were kind of texting and talking about like

inspirational quotes and books and such. And I think that when I was thinking about like, what books would I say are my favorite books are most influential books and a lot of relationship books kept coming up. And I was like, oh, it's going to sound like I'm like, you know, I know that people listen to podcasts all about business, all about being an entrepreneur, it's all, but I believe that your relationship is a business decision. Not because you're going into business with your spouse or starting a company, if you can do that, God speed. I haven't seen a lot of people work with the person they're with and it goes swimmingly, but because of the person you choose is going to decide how

much energy you have in what the quality of your work life is like. So it's like, I find that when it comes to choosing a mate, sometimes a lot of your work should go into getting that right so that your actual work is not going to be constantly affected because you're constantly distracted and you're cleaning up messes and you're unhappy and you're depleted. Like the most successful people I know have or like regular kind of boring amazing relationships. Yeah. Yeah. You have to be tethered to reality in some way. So you can be kind of crazy and like Rick Rubin says like your work should be the most stressful part of your day.

Yeah. You shouldn't go home to... Chaos. Yes. At least chaos from kids, that's different. Sure. But you shouldn't have to go home and go to war. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, there's this seroconnoly line and he says, the most somber enemy of good art

is the pram in the hall, like the stroller in the hall, which is like about the saddest quote you can ever hear. And I don't, I find it to be not true at all. I found that sort of having kids is very rooting and it created structure and it created prioritization and it opened me up in a bunch of ways that were necessary. But I do think if you don't have structure and routine. It's very hard to have the safe space you need to be crazy in the work. Because your whole life is crazy. I'm going into the workspace now. I think it's also just boils down to energy. I make this silly metaphor sometimes about energy dollars, which is like, let's say you have 100 energy dollars a day Like we have a finite amount of energy a day, right?

And it drives my friend nuts because like, Hey, do you want to come do this thing tonight? And I'm like, I don't have any energy dollars left. Like it's not, I'm not making this choice. It's just I've spent them all today, you know? So it's like, okay, a hundred energy dollars today. I woke up. I wrote for three and a half hours. That was like 30 energy dollars. And then I went for a run. That was like 15 energy dollars. Then I had this call in the zoom.. That was like $30 energy dollars. Then I went for a run. That was like $15 energy dollars. Then I had this call in the Zoom.

And that was like, and so let's say we're at $80 energy dollars at six o'clock. And then my man comes home. That's the way I need to hear about his day. And I want to hear what's going on with him. And I want to make him dinner. And then we're going to jump in bed or do whatever we're going to do.

And like it's now 830, and I'm at $100 energy dollars and a friend calls. And it's like, I need to talk to you about my ex, a boyfriend and I need a friend and I'm like I'm going to be taking energy dollars from tomorrow then and then I'm going to start tomorrow at a deficit. So I can't take your call tonight. Yeah. But I can talk to you first thing in the morning and then I'll make that hour's zoom a

half an hour's zoom. Like I maybe that's where my routines come in. Yeah. Because I don't believe that when you're working at a deficit energy wise you're doing Like, maybe that's where my routines come in. Yeah. Because I don't believe that when you're working at a deficit energy wise, you're doing anybody a service by talking to them on the phone, getting on your computer, sending that email, whatever it is.

So I just stay really loyal to a finite amount of energy. And I see a lot of people destroying careers because they're spending most of their energy in some relate toxic relationship where they're fighting and in some, you know, recreating their childhood circumstance and some pugnacious, acrimonyist thing that's just like draining all their energy. And it's like, are you getting paid to be in this relationship

because you could be using all this in your work. Sure. No wonder you're not getting anything done. Yeah, or they're just spending the energy just saying yes to a bunch of things that they shouldn't be doing in the travel They're you're not it's a big one. You're not Doing the main thing which is the actual creative work and then it also really helps with like for me

Yes, every time someone cuts me off in traffic. I live in Los Angeles I wanted like follow them for 25 minutes like but that's gonna be 15 energy dots So you it kind of things get really simple when you boil it down to like, oh, am I going to give my energy to that thing? Yeah. Because if I'm giving it to this, I'm taking it away from this. Yeah. And that's not paying me. Right. I try to get like really simple when it comes to that. When I think about it, it's like, I promised a certain amount of that to the work, which is like what fulfills me and,

you know, challenges me and is exciting, and also pays the bills. And then I promised the bulk of it to family. Like I made this choice. Like no one told me I had to, but I did it. And so I just really can't afford any of this other stuff. But it's also like I was talking about this to some of the other day about sort of all these high perform, this like moment of all of all these high performers and one of them came up and someone was like, how can people don't like this person? And I was like, I think it's because they don't walk the walk and they come off like a hypocrite.

This person talks all about extending your life and having balance and how to not work so hard and work so smart and all they do is work and they have no life. Right. So I look at you and I go like, yeah, the ego is the enemy, you've written all these amazing books and you have the life that I want. So I'm gonna trust you. You have a family, you're well-balanced, you know what I mean?

So it's like when you see all these people, they're like, get it together and go to therapy and do this and did it, and they're just kind of like alone and miserable, you're like, well, why am I going to listen to you? Like I just want to make sure that you're walking the walk. That's true. So it's like you, the family's kind of the thing. Yeah, do you know this term, art monsters?

No. Oh, some female writers are like, I want to be an art monster, meaning like only the art and fuck everything and everyone else, because that's what basically male artists have been all about. All the narcissists, male artists have been allowed to be this for basically all of humanist. You know, you're Hemingway. Just to show the like, they made amazing stuff. But then they left this like wake of destruction and pain and broken people behind them.

Yeah. And in a way, it's easier to be that. Sure. It's way easier to be that. It's not necessarily more fun in a long run. Also, paintback then was very toxic. Yes. They were all high.

They were all like brain dead. Right. They were like drinking out of the lake. Yeah. They were just inhaling lead all day. Let's give them a little break. But do you know what I mean? This idea of like, I think is that radical selfishness

or something? Yeah, but just like at the end of your life, if you have like a this stack of this work, but it came at this cost, you're not going to be like, oh, it's totally worth it. I think it's also knowing when to do that. I did that in my 20s hard. I was not fit to be in a relationship with anybody. I was not the person that someone that I would have wanted would have been attracted to. I think I had some kind of like Darwinian understanding of like my 20s is when to go the hardest ambition wise and to be that selfish.

Because otherwise I'm just gonna be selfish in a relationship with somebody. I'm just gonna hurt somebody. I'm gonna lie to someone. I'm gonna cheat on someone. You know what I mean? And I worked like an animal in my 20s. And then in my 30s, I kind of tried to find balance relatively unsuccessfully. And now I'm kind of like, oh, I think it's okay to be kind of let yourself be that selfish in your 20s and kind of know when to again update your software and...

But what if you didn't make it? Not like didn't make it career wise, which could also work. Yeah. But like you can also pick up habits or make decisions that are catastrophic, right? Or or fatal even, right? So it's like the idea of being like profoundly unbalanced for a period and then balancing out, it worked in your case. Yeah. But I'm sure there are people you met or were peers of yours that haven't come out of that spiral. And maybe they can't come out of that spiral. They can't pull themselves out of that dot.

And it's interesting because it's like you say peers and I think it also helps to go and someone said this to me very early and I'm very, this is embarrassing, but I'm gonna say it. I made vision boards. Cut out in magazines, printed out, comedy sensual presents on a printer at kinkos, cut it out, glued it on, speaking of hailing chemicals, I do love rubber cement, maybe that was why. And this is what I want. Like I was very, I was reading the secret,

I was like, and look, I'm not saying necessarily like the secret is real. A lot of people I know that got into it, did get successful, maybe it's just the kind of person that would buy that book is already the kind of person that's working hard. It's like vitamins, I know they work, but it's also if you're the kind of person buying vitamins

you're probably taking care of yourself in a lot of other ways too. So are the vitamins or is the other variables whatever so I Was just obsessed with like putting it out there saying it. I'm gonna do this There's just no other option. I was very calculated about it and someone said to me because I was like Oh, who should I put on my vision board like what people people? And someone said, pick three careers that you want. Okay. Not 50, not peers.

Because you can look at someone and go, like, oh, he's doing well, but like, you don't know. I don't know the whole thing. And just do what they did. I picked Ellen. Okay. Was one of them. John Stewart was one of them.

And Roseanne was one of them. Okay. And I studied how long they worked at it. Like, because that was back in the day when you would, you know, be a comic for 20 years before you would get the tonight show, you know, now you can kind of like do some TikToks and get some visibility and, you know, you can get famous, but you might not be great yet, whatever. So I was like, oh, I have 20 years, I like, I have to work hard for 20 years. Like I already kind of had that. And I was like, I need to turn 20 years

into 15 years. That's too long. So I was like, double psycho. But I think it's important like when people are trying to figure out the career they want or like who to compete with or who to aspire to. Like don't pick, don't look at everybody. Just look at like two or three people. Yeah. That helped me because when people like,

well someone says doing this, I'm like, I'm looking here. This is the person I chose to emulate. So I just, just can't. What a life these celebrities lead. Imagine walking the red carpet, the cameras in your face, the designer clothes, the worst dress list, big house, the world constantly peering in, the bursting bank account,

the people trying to get the grubby mitts on it. What's he all about? I'm just saying, being really, really famous. It's not always easy. Whee! I'm Emily Lloyd-Saini, and I'm Anna Leongrofi. And we're the hosts of Terribly Famous from Wondery, the podcast which tells the stories of our favorite celebrities

from their perspective. Each season we show you what it's really like being famous by taking you inside the life of a British icon. We walk you through their glittering highs and eyebrow raising lows and ask, is fame and fortune really worth it? Follow terribly famous now wherever you get your podcasts or listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Hey, it's Guy Razz here, the host of How I Built This, a podcast that gives you a front-row seat to how some of the biggest products were built, and the innovators, entrepreneurs,

and idealists behind them. Every week, I speak to someone new, stories like Justin Wolverton, a lawyer who just wanted a healthy alternative to ice cream, so he created Halo Top in his quesanard, or Todd Graves who grew his fried chicken restaurant raising canes into one of the most successful fast food chains in the U.S. All of these great conversations can help you learn how to think big, take risks, and navigate crises in life and work, from people who've done all of that and more.

Follow how I built this on the Wondering app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to how I built this early and add free right now on Wondering Plus. When I see, when I look back on that period, it's like, when I was in my choices, it's like working for sort of three simultaneous careers. And I definitely think I fast forward, you know, you get your 10,000 hours, I was doing them three hours at a time. It was great. But at the same time, how much of it was actually moving the needle

and how much of it was my intensity and not being able to, do you know what I mean? Like, like, could I have actually done 70% as much and ended up in the exact same place? Probably. Did all these things that I thought were these sort of live or die moments or like everything was counting on? It was all my head. You know what you guys, here's this is this is what I'm going to say about you. What I'm going to say right to the camera. I can tell who a person is based on the part of their Christmas tree that faces the wall. OK.

Do you decorate the part of the Christmas tree that faces the wall or not? OK. Are you the person that just decorates? Around. Just where everybody kind of sees it. Sure. But that if a kid goes to go get something that's fallen, and that just decorates. Around. Just where everybody kind of sees it. Sure.

But that if a kid goes to go get something that's fallen, they're going to, there's no magic in the back. So you think you should decorate the whole tree? Yes. Okay. So we're in a studio where you see there's a billion of these books. There's tons of books behind the cameras that no one can see. Mm.

Okay. You're that, you're the person that goes all around the track. So you just said like, could you got it, we got it away with 70%. No, because people would walk in here and mean like, so you just stopped there. What doesn't technically go all the way, but you, but it's, you don't have to do that part. Do you know what I'm saying? I don't mean like I could have phoned it in. I'm just saying like, there was it, there was, are, but there's, I don't think our brains worked that way I think your brain was it was just for me you're either cheater or you're not you're either the kind of person that does the right thing when no one's what

What like I think it's important to know yourself about that when you want to cheat You're like I could totally get away with this, but then I would know but see I've also been to a workaholics meetings or many of them and Part part of the reason you're going is because you don't have a healthy, a healthy relationship of what you shouldn't be doing. And it's sent. Is it a compulsion? Does it stop? Is it if it's diminishing marginal returns

or if it stops being fun? Right, which is a trick thing for work because for most addictions they say, like, okay, you know it's an addiction if it stops being fun and becomes an obligation, right? Is it making your life unmanageable? But works tricky because you're like, well, it is for now,

but if I just finished this book that I'm gonna get this money and it's not gonna be unmanageable, you know? Right. It's a tricky one to know, but I always just say go balls to the wall because if it doesn't work out, you'll always know you're a ball to the wall.

Yeah, yeah, I just like I just think of the things that I thought mattered so much and in retrospect They were all part of a larger Inability to sort of separate what was really important from what wasn't in a kind of a compulsion like Rooted in it in a kind of anxiety and also I need to prove something to people You know what else though? I get to move through life when people are like, so I haven't paused for a syndrome. I'm like, I don't. I actually believe I deserve more.

I don't have, you know what I mean? Like I see people that are like, I'm just not sure if I deserve that. I'm like, I don't have to live like that at all. You know, I don't want anything I don't deserve. I like knowing I went a little harder than I needed to. I like knowing that I got everything honestly. I kind of now that I look back at that

because I could easily say, like, oh, that was kind of pathological how hard you worked. I'm like, I just don't believe in wasted time like that. When it comes to, you know, it's like, Johnny Carson used to say, there's no such thing as a wasted written joke because a beat, like, you know, a B joke that you maybe don't, that you've written that doesn't work on stage.

Extemporaneously, it's an A joke. So I have notebooks of jokes that have never gone on stage, but like I'll use them at some point. Or also just writing them was itself good. Yeah, yeah, totally. It was a wrap. Yeah, it's like saying like, oh, like running that extra mile every day, you know, when I was training, like, was a waste of time, I could have just ran five and I ran six.

It's like, well, it's kind of hard to tell. Because you also hear, how can you say that it didn't work? Yeah, I mean, the stuff you cut from the book is still informing what it was, it's still practice. It's all, it's practice is practice. Yeah, and you need contrast, you know? So it's like, it's after you make pasta, you strain out the water. It doesn't put in the water and was a waste of time.

No, definitely not. That's a great metaphor. You know, do you, when you got the success you were working so crazy hard for though, where you like, did what, what did it feel like? Did it, did were you actually able to feel it in any way? I think maybe that's why when I look back on it, I go, I thought this was going to give me something. I thought I was going to feel a certain way.

And of course, you don't get it at all. It's like, it's like, it's just, I mean, I'm making myself laugh because it is, you know, I don't know if you've ever gotten into. I'm in a program called ACA, which is adult children of alcoholics, which is if you just grew up and I know people shut down when they hear that word sometimes, you know, we say in order for alcoholism to be present, alcohol doesn't have to be present.

So I actually come from a lot of workaholism. Yeah. You know, our moms were the first women that were really in the workforce. I went to work with my mom and, you know, I sat there. She worked at Bloomingdale's, she ran around like a crazy person. My dad, I'd wake up at the middle of the night to go get a snack and he'd be recopying phone number. You know, I grew up around addiction, compulsive behavior, alcoholism, all kinds of stuff, but

uh, you know, I would go to a lot of open AA meetings to learn about alcoholism because they, you know, when someone else is drinking and it's bothering you or doing drugs and bothering you, they're not doing it at you. Yeah, sure. They're not doing it, you know, and they say, you know, alcoholics drink because they think they have to, Right. And another thing that they would say in there, I don't believe my train of thought is, you would hear alcoholics talk and they would say, when I took my first drink, I didn't feel good. Yeah. I felt normal.

Yeah, or relief. Yes. I felt like the way I think everyone else, when I felt my first success, I wasn't like, I made it. I was like, God. Now I can relax. Yeah. It was kind wasn't like, I made it. I was like, God, now I can relax. Yeah. It was kind of more like that. In a way, later, I was able to celebrate victories more,

but for me, it was a little more like that feeling of I felt normal. I felt full for the first time. Instead of like, I had a bonus of all this success, I felt like I wasn't at a deficit. You know, it takes not to, right? Yes. Yeah, he was, he was saying he was talking to someone and he was like, you know, what do you do to fill the hole? And they were like, what hole? And it's like, if you know, you know, like if you're someone

who has like, I like, you were saying it's about getting to even like, I think some people think that you're driven and you're trying to do all this stuff to feel like the ecstasy of success. And actually it's more like a relief of the pain or a distress. It work is one of the few places where I feel emotionally regulated and present because regular life is not that. And so, yeah, you have this fantasy that, like getting it's gonna make you feel good and it just makes you feel like not that.

Yeah, that's exactly kind of it. And I don't, you know, and like, we can pathologize it all day long, but, you know, I think that, like, you know, it's cooperation and productivity may stope. I mean, it's like blame neuroscience. You don't have to blame everything else for it, you know? And I mean, there's worse things, by the way.

There's worse things, yeah. And it's also, it's, you know, I'm a really big fan of healthy addictions, you know, I think addictive, you know? And I mean, there's worse things, by the way. There's worse things. Yeah, and it's also, it's, you know, I'm a really big fan of healthy addictions, you know, I think addictive, you know, neurochemistry, it's, it can just make you or break you. And I know that I've got it. And I feel really lucky that I've been able to kind of reroute some of my addictive, you know,

circuitry to something positive, you know, if you're like, all right, I'm gonna be addicted to improving myself. I'm addicted to Ryan Holiday's podcast. I'm addicted to his books. I'm addicted to, you know, if you're like, all right, I'm going to be addicted to improving myself. I'm addicted to Ryan Holiday's podcast. I'm addicted to his books. I'm addicted to, you know, listening to these great podcasters. I mean, when you're addicted to porn and it's alcohol, that's when things start to shit. It's a fan, but if you can sort of have that warrior spirit and rerout it, I'm like, okay,

there's worse things to be addicted to than, you know, building success. I grew up, you know, with a mom who had to date men. She didn't want to date for money, you know. I did not want to have to do that. I did. It's better than being a grifter. All the energy that I spent in my 20s trying to get successful, people like you're so ambitious. And why are you working so hard? I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm not gold-degging men.

What's my other option here? And so for me, I was trying to make people laugh or living. I think if you have an honorable goal, I've like trying to help people learn and help people grow and make people laugh. Like, you know, it's taking me a long time to not have to be like, I'm crazy and messed up just because I want to be successful and make as many people laugh as possible.

It's like, maybe that's okay. Yeah, is your thing making the world better or is your thing additive or extractive? Yeah, totally. Like, I'm not becoming a famous stand-up so that I can like prey on people or abuse, you know what I mean, or say gross stuff. Some business man who takes over companies and fires all the employees to extract an extra

2% profit or return on his vet. There's good ways to fill the hole and bad ways to fill the hole. Yeah, totally. And I think that, you know, so for me, it's so in my nature to be self-deprecating, going, oh, I'm this narcissist, like, so this is self-absorbed and dead it up, but like just get out of there, you know?

Give yourself permission to shine and do something honorable. And I think there's, you know, I love podcasts like yours, because I think there's a lot of weird shame around ambition. And there's a lot of weird shame around ambition. And there's a lot of weird shame about saying like, I want to be famous. I want to be rich. I think there's, I grew up without, so maybe it's less shame for me.

And something we'll get to talk about Robert Green in your past with him later, but something that was, before I even read the 48 laws of power, any of that, the cover was enough for me to go like, oh, that's what I want. I didn't realize what I wanted was power. Just the word. Just the word power.

Sure, he just came out and said it. I want power. Yeah, because you don't feel like you have it. Say it. Yeah. What's wrong with saying it? And something that, the one thing I will say sort of,

I think in the beginning, I thought I wanted fame because that's what you think you want. You know, I grew up around a bunch of alcoholics when we got, I couldn't get their attention, we'd get home, they'd be watching the TV, my dad would be watching us in Allen, Ronnie Dangerfield, couldn't get his attention, and I just, I went, my brain got to get in the box.

I got to get in there. Yeah. And that was it. That's all, that's all, one moment happened from then on out, very embarrassing. I would be in my room alone practicing being on talk shows whenever I would eat. I would pretend I was in commercials like I was I was getting in that box. Yeah. You know, so I went, okay, I think you need fame.

And then I hear on Howard Stern, Bill Murray one time is on and Howard Stern's like being famous. That's, oh, tell me it's the worst, right? Or whatever. And Bill Murray just went, um, try getting rich and see if you still need to be famous. And I went, oh, wait, I think that's what I want. Wait, yeah, I want to be able to pay my bills. I want freedom from, and then Robert Green made me go, no, I want power. Sure. The power to say, no, if I don't want to do something, the power like, autonomy, you want control over your life. That's right.

Yeah. It is funny like when you get, because I think what we're, the root of a lot of what we're talking about is just plain old self awareness. Like, and you get that usually with some distance and perspective and therapy and whatever, but like how transparent and obvious it is in retrospect why we did certain things like for me my parents were We're not like neglectful in that sense, but they were like the not nice way to say it would be like they're like starfuckers And that they were very interested in

People who were interesting like oh we went on vacation. You know who we saw or like so and so lives in this town And you've seen this house so there was a lot like, like keeping up with the Joneses type thing. No, no, they were just, that, their currency was like knowing about and being impressed by like important people that lived nearby or. The most important thing in my mom's apartment was a frame photo of her in Bill Clinton.

Sure. Yes. So this was more like, yeah, so like where they live, would be like, I did you know some 80s rock star has a house like a really nice house up the street from us like that kind of being proximity or a j to rank yourself. Yeah, it doesn't know the hierarchy and be aware of what's happening with tribes of the tribe isn't kicking you out. But so for Instagram, how else did you gossip about rich people? But they were very interested in that. And so, and then not, it didn't feel like that interested in me as me, right? Interesting. So it's like how obvious in retrospect, I went out and did a bunch of things to check boxes. And then it happened, like it happened that like their friends would be like, wait, is

he your kid? You know that kind of thing? Wow. And then what did it do? It did nothing. It did nothing, not only for me, but like actually didn't do anything for them either, because fundamentally there was some problem, right? Like you do it all because

you want some sense of power, a controller autonomy or you want to impress certain people, you want to show many people's faces. And then you realize you can't actually get it. I also just love like like you being like it didn't do anything for me, it didn't do anything for that. Meanwhile, millions people like Ryan's book changed my life. You're like, oh, it's got a full zir. I do the same thing. I don't think it's a full z- you know. You just realize that that can't, you can't do it for, you have to do it because you like it and it's fulfilling to you

and soothing to you and meaningful to you. That original wound doesn't get healed by it, but it is the abset, like the catalyst. Yeah, if you felt like you were playing football to impress your dad, it doesn't matter how many super balls you win. Your dad will, you will never feel impress your dad. It doesn't matter how many Super Bowls you win. Your dad will, you will never feel like your dad's fully impressed. Because there's always this sense of I'm doing it for him.

And you, you don't control other people. And you will never get from them what only you can give to yourself. And I, and yeah, and I think it's taking me a long time to go like, oh, that's my origin story, not my assignment. Kind of like. Oh, that's a good distinction, not my assignment. Kind of like, good distinction. You know, like, I just lost both parents. And after the second one died, I was like, well, now what? I was like floating through space.

And I was like, and I did feel almost instantly, like my drive kind of lift. I was just sort of like, oh, I really was trying to impress them. I really was trying to get them to, you know, and I was also, I think I love this shit because if we're on the self-awareness thing, birth order is also kind of a thing that took me a while to unlock. I was 13 months younger than my older sibling.

Obviously a mistake. They called me a surprise, but like I knew it. I knew I could feel it. And I think a lot of really successful people are the youngest child and they kind of, they had to fit into an already established system, which is a big thing. You have to kind of learn how to be a chameleon

and kind of like fit into something or you become like super stubborn because you're like my niece who's the youngest is like we're doing it my way in this because she doesn't want to fit into this already established system. She feels like all this pressure to sort of be super independent. And I always felt like I was on borrow time.

I was a hassle. I was in extra expense. And I felt it from them too. They're like, you know, and so I felt like I had to be super successful and over achieve and be needless and wantless and perfect as to not like rock the boat because I was already pushing it. I remember my I grew up in Sacramento so all I wanted to do is go to school in Southern California because that seemed so different. Yeah. And my parents had very low sort of not

ex they had high expectations which it was clear I was not meeting but they had low they had high standards which does not mean but they had low expectations. So like there was this sense that I was like, I wasn't the one that was gonna go places, right? So I remember, I remember, like, I wanted to go to Pepperdine. And so, which is, because that, like on paper, it looks like the greatest school in the world.

It's a photo. So I remember, I finally bullied them and just sort of letting me to, and they tagged me. And I remember my mom's walking me around, and she goes, you know, she's like, you know, this school is like $30,000 a year and I'm sure it's way more now. She goes, you would have to become very successful to be worth this. And so you go, okay, so yes, there was this understanding that you're only worth something if you create a return on investment,

which is fundamentally not what a parental child relationship is supposed to be. So you pick up these assumptions, these off-handed comments that reveal to you the logic of the world, you get these scripts. And that was a later script, right? That was like in late high school, but I imagine there must have been versions

of this over and over and over again. And then it's a process as you get older, those scripts take you to a certain place, and then you realize they were adaptive, and now they're becoming maladaptive. And you have to adjust and update the scripts or the software as you're saying to find something illogical about the universe in yourself that's both sustainable and something a logic about the universe in yourself that's both sustainable and like fair and conducive to happiness and contentment and also true, you know what I mean? Like you can pick up these scripts that like things are scarce because they were scarce when you were a kid. But they're not scarce for you anymore. You've made all this money. You've had this you don't have to, you know, act like you're about to run out of stuff. So you have to kind of update these scripts

for these ideas as you go because they're based on assumptions that were either never true or certainly not true anymore. And that's something I love about being in a 12 step program because even though it spooks people, it is free medicine and it does kind of wrangle very complicated brains, you know. And there's this step where you write down your character defects, okay? Which is what you're talking about. All these survival mechanisms that serve you very well as a child, but now are obsolete,

and they're working against you. And they are a liability, and you're, you know, it's basically like, you know, you've got a bunch of like tools and weapons, but the war has been over, right? As the thing that kept me coming back is this guy was speaking, and he went, I have good news and I have bad news. The good news is the war is over.

The bad news is you lost. So just drop all the weapons, all these maladaptive behaviors, drop the charges. And as I started working more with sponsor's and stuff, and realizing that this might get me in a little bit of trouble, but I wouldn't be the first time, which is going through. And I was like, why do they call them character defects? Like that's just such a negative term. Let's call them superpowers. And I kind of started getting into this, just even if it's just a

thought experiment, you know, anthropomorphizing these character defects, superpowers of, I have this thing where I need to people please. I have this thing where whenever I go see someone, I have to bring them a gift and be overly punctuous. I have this thing where I set the caffeine mints. I think I actually have some if you want some. I got one right here. And, you know, this thing where after I leave a conversation,

I have to go over it for 40 minutes and beat myself up. And, you know, I'm obsessed that someone doesn't like me when in fact they're not thinking about me at all. You know, the narcissism of the, I'm a piece of shit in the center of the universe thing, whatever. And I kind of was like looking at a lot of my character defects last superpowers. And I'm like, a lot of these have served me really well too.

They don't always serve me well in relationships. They don't always serve me well. But like they serve me really well when I'm at the comedy store at two in the morning. And I've, or when I'm in business with someone in Hollywood and I'm dealing with a really mercurial person who does have a lot of alcoholic characteristics, I'm the one that can deal with this person.

No one else can. Right. I know exactly like how to keep the room at 68 degrees and just be complimentary enough to this narcissist and cow-tow. You know, and so I was like, maybe it's not about going, everything that happened is all bad. And let me just over-pathologize.

Like I like to call it like trauma privilege. Like just going like, what are the advantages I got from it? I can radically forgive everything my parents did because we forgive others not because they deserve forgiveness, because we deserve peace, forgiveness is selfish, and like maybe just maybe I have a couple advantages because of this, you know what I mean? And just so that I don't have to look at myself as a victim, and I think the key is kind of going, okay, to get rid of all these, maybe it's possible, I'm not gonna do psychotherapy,

I'm not doing it, I just can't. There's certain things that I'm like, either don't have time to change that about myself, or I don't wanna change that about myself, or I'm kind of at a point where I know when to let it serve me, and I know when to, I didn't close the loop on Anthra for more fizing it and being able to say like, you know what, I don't need that right now.

I'm gonna need you to sit this one out. That worked great when I was 10, but I'm actually on a date right now. And I need to not have that maladaptive behavior. But when I'm on set, on Monday, with that super abusive malignant narcissist, I'll see there 10 AM. Sure.

And it's kind of like a weird little exercise that I do. Using the traits instead of being used by the traits might be a way to think about it. Genius, of course, you know how to say that. So the perfection is above, I'm on the state with this guy and I'm obsessing over if my eyeliner is running

and he doesn't give a shit, right? But hey, can you come back on Monday 10 a.m. because I'm editing my special? Right. And I'm really going to need you. Right. You know, because everything we have that's maladaptive is trying to protect us. It's trying to help us. And sometimes it does.

And sometimes it really does. Yeah. You know. I think the non-controversial way that people can see this is like with like fru-cality. Like being frugal is obviously a good trait at the beginning of a career or a life, right? Understanding the value of money, being able to use it effectively,

being able to reduce needs, not be wasteful. That's all great, right? That's how you accumulate, that's how you don't blow through it when there's not very much of it. And yet, if you are lucky enough to become successful, if that serves you well, and you save the majority of your salary,

you invest it properly, and now you have lots of it. What was the point of having lots of it if you cannot spend it? If one dollar still is one dollar to you, because it's not, right? Like a hundred dollars was a lot of money at one point in your life and now depending on your net worth,

$1,000 is a lot. We're $10,000 is a lot. We're sorry, it's not a lot, right? As you could spend most people wouldn't think about spending a dollar and then someone who's worth a lot isn't thinking about spending $500 or that. And so the ability to update what money means to you

and what your actual financial health or picture is, is this ability to update the script and your sense of the world based on the facts as they have changed. Because otherwise, again, what was the point of it? Why did you earn it all if you cannot spend it? If you're just trying to accumulate the most of it, and then you think you take it with you when you die. And so if you don't do that,

what you've actually constructed for yourself is a very not nice prison of your own making. I got it. So sorry, this poster and I are just in a fight. That just made me think of like really amazing advice I got once about money, which is, because I had no idea how it worked. And someone, this business manager said to me, I mean, I live in California where the taxes are in nightmare. I'm an idiot, obviously. But everything you buy, like if you look at the price tag, it's double what the price tag is based on how much you have to

earn and pay taxes on in order to afford it. So if something's $100, it's $200. If it's $50, it's $100, just look it at that way because I could not get out from under money. I mean, the first year that I've made any money, I owed tax. I lost money on taxes. Like I had to do 80 cities, like I had no idea how it worked. Because you go from getting a paycheck

where it's all being deducted. And then you're getting what seems like a large amount of money to you, or not even you send a contract for a large amount of money. Then actually it's split over four payments. There's commissions taken out. And then they're like 12 months from now you're gonna have to tell the IRS about it and pay them all at once.

And make sure it's estimated for the next year. It's it's hard. And make sure when you make money, I don't know how I got this like instinct. I think it's because I grew up watching being in such chaos, being evicted from places, being sent home from school because the tuition was impaid. Use the first money you make to make your life better. Get health insurance. Take worries off your plate. That's the best use of money in the beginning.

Get your computer to the Apple store and get the insurance on your computer. It's like stuff like that that when you buy the purse about you're just adding anxiety to your life and making yourself less functional and less optimal and it's like Spending money on the stuff that's actually gonna make it so that you have enough bandwidth to accomplish your goals and dreams Like this is a really wild thing my friends make fun of me about it There you go. So I have a a woman that is now like my family, Leslie, who is with me. She'll be helping raise my kid, all that. And she's been with me for 16 years. So I had a cleaning lady when I was 26 years old. I was maybe making $500 a week. And I remember going, I'm never going to make it if I don't have a clue. I lived in an apartment in Hollywood

and I was so obsessed with things being clean and there were roaches and it was this like nightmare plate and I just was like, I also wore velcro shoes to save time. Like I was a, because I did the math on like, okay, it takes like 30 seconds a day to tie your shoes times 365 days. And I think I also probably wanted a friend

and wanted somebody around and I wanted to learn Spanish and all these other things. But I just was like, I know I'm gonna need this and I need it now and I got her at that time before I had any. And that makes the personal life more or at least and it could be more chaotic. Instead of going to clubs or going, you know, whatever, you know, that's what I spent

the money on. I do think there was also a little bit of a manifesting like I, I deserve, I'm going to start feeling the feelings and living the way that I want to live. They say you're like for a business, you're supposed to hire for what you want the business to be. Yeah, yeah, totally. I was like, I'm gonna need one of these one day. So I need to get in on the ground floor with her now. I need to develop this relationship early.

Like it was this kind of psycho, but it did work. I mean, it didn't work. I wouldn't share any of these psychotic things. I didn't like 20s. If I hadn't stuck the landing on them. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery

Plus in Apple Podcasts. Hey, I'm Michelle Beetle. And I'm Peter Rosenberg. Hey, Peter, tell the people about our new podcast. Right, it's called Over the Top. And we cover the biggest topics in sports and pop culture using Royal Rumble rules. That means we'll start with two stories.

Toss one out on its ass, and dive into the other stories with ruthless aggression. Oh, but it never stops because every 90 seconds after that. ["Fast and in the fire"] Oh God, whose music is that? Another story comes down to the ring. Rinse and repeat until we arrive at the one most important thing on planet Earth that week.

["Fast and in the fire"] Follow over the top on the Wendry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to over the top on the OneDrew app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Over the Top early and add free right now by joining OneDrew Plus. For the record, this is not a wrestling podcast. No, no, but it is inspired by wrestling. Isn't everything inspired by wrestling, Beetle? Fair point.

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