The Daily Stoic - Why Stoicism is Having a Modern Resurgence | Mick Mulroy (PT 2)

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Ryan speaks with Mick Mulroy in the first of a two-part conversation about the simplicity of Stoicism but the difficulties people have in practicing the philosophy. They also discuss Marcus Aurelius’ character and the traits we seek for in modern leaders, and more. Mick Mulroy is the Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East, Middle East Institute senior fellow, retired CIA Paramilitary Operations Officer and U.S Marine. After leaving the Pentagon, he co-founded the Lobo Institute, became a Special Advisor to the United Nations, an ABC News National Security Analyst, and the co-president of End Child Soldiering. Mulroy’s post-service efforts focus on educating people on global conflicts, combating extremism, and the philosophy of Stoicism.Click here to learn more about Lobo Institute, End Child Soldiering, Third Option Foundation, Aurelius Foundation, and the Plato's Academy Centre.X: @MickMulroy✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoke Puckets. This is part two of my convo with Mick Moro. Big news in my life other than this cold

which you're hearing and screwing up my nasal passages and thus making this not the most listenable intro. The episode is much better, I promise. I started the fourth book in the Stoic Virtue series. So the Wisdom book is now underway. The Justice book will be out this summer and then I can't even wrap my head around dates. And when the next one will be out, but it is in the works. Production has begun. So I now got that part of my brain operating. I think I'm both happier when I'm writing and more miserable when I'm writing. But what I love to do is have conversations with people who are interested in stoicism

or better yet, applying in the real world. And that's where today's guest comes in. If you listen to part one, Bick Moroy was the deputy assistant for the secretary of defense in the Middle East. He served under secretary James Mattis and secretary Mark Esper. And he's a former CIA officer,

former United States Marine, fascinating guy, spent a lot of time at the Pentagon. And then since then he's become a national security analyst for ABC News, the special advisor to the United Nations. And a cause near and dear to his heart is ending child soldiering, which we talk about towards the end of the episode. Just a fascinating conversation.

I was really glad to have it. I'm so glad he came out to have it. And I think you're really gonna like listening to it. You can follow him on Twitter at Mick Moroy. I'll link to all his different organizations in today's show notes. And I hope you enjoy this episode because I really enjoyed having it. And I'm going to get back to doing my writing. If you want to focus more on your well-being this year, you should read more and you should give Audible a try.

Audible offers an incredible selection of audiobooks focused on wellness from physical, mental, spiritual, social, motivational, occupational, and financial. You can listen to Audible on your daily walks. You can listen to my audiobooks on your daily walks and stillness is the key. I have a whole chapter on walking, on walking meditations, on getting outside. And it's one of the things I do when I'm walking. Audible offers a wealth of well-being titles to help you get closer to your best life

and the best you. Discover stories to inspire sounds to soothe and voices that can change your life. Wherever you are on your well-being journey, Audible is there for you. Explore bestsellers, new releases, and exclusive originals. Listen now on Audible.

["Oddable"] You know, it's funny, I interviewed Captain Dave Carey, who was sitting right where you are. He was in the Hanway Hilton with Stockdale. And what he was saying, told me some incredible things, but he was saying what was interesting. He's like, I never met Stockdale once.

He was separated from the other guys. And it was this kind of, his strength spread through the prison like by osmosis. And then his ideas were being passed around. And it's not like they were all getting together and he gave these rousing lectures. It was the power of his example. They heard what he did when he tried to kill himself

to avoid being, of his example. They heard what he did when he tried to kill himself to avoid being, you know, use his propaganda and just his sort of example of leadership and self-containment, but he was saying that he'd gotten in there and, you know, he's been in there a while, he learns the language and he hears the tapping on the wall and they say, you know, CAG, which is what they call it, stocktail, CAG, which is what they call Stockdale,

CAG wants you to remember what Epictetus said. And he goes, what? Right, right. He's like, I'm a 22 year old fighter pilot. I don't know what the fuck Epictetus is. But just the idea that Stockdale just thinks everyone should know Epictetus and he just says it. And then of course, when that eventually is sort of translated,

it's like, look, there's some things that are in your control, some things that are not, focus on what's in your control. But I just love the idea of the power of this example from someone thousands of years ago being in someone and then passed through like literally the walls of a prison and then it's stealing those people for this incredible trial that they're being subjected to. It's just, I mean, he said to himself, I am leaving the world of technology

and entering the world of epic deed. Exactly, and I think one thing that I've, because I talked to people who haven't heard about it before and I see stuff that resonates with them. I think one of the things when you say, yeah, everybody knows Marcus Aurelius, right? These are movies and stuff. But another towering figure of who he thought was a slave. Yes. Right. And then people go, oh, wait a minute. So this isn't some elitist thing. No, it's not. It's not. It's not elitist at all. It's not really, anybody's has access to it

in people who might be in the worst situations, like prisoners, sometimes prisoners that got there for good reason. Yeah. Right? Sure. In fact, one of the persons right in the chapter in the book that I referenced, Andy Smalls, is in the UK, a prison official who has found stoicism

and uses it to help other prisoners. is in the UK a prison official who has found stoicism and uses it to help other prisoners. Right, they're not just prisoners of war who don't deserve to be there. You can commit crimes and be guilty of those crimes and then still wrestle with, still find value in the idea of the economy of control. Totally. I don't control that I'm here, but I control who I am while I'm here.

And when I get out. Yes, and who I'm gonna be after. Right, after I pay my dues. But I think that's another thing about Stoicism is it isn't just like the Roman emperors. Yes. Right, it is literally a teacher, a boxer, a long distance runner, a slave.

Yeah, it is remarkable, right? It's not just like, oh, it encompasses all these figures. I think it's worth pointing out Marcus Aurelius, the most powerful man in the world, holds epictetus up above all the other philosophers. So the emperor of Rome is being directly influenced by a powerful person being so influenced and changed by a utterly person being so influenced

and changed by a utterly powerless person. That's right. You know, it's not just, oh, anyone can be a Christian or something. It's that, no, it's fundamentally rooted in the sort of humility of the lowly and that's exalting the person on high. That's right.

So your value isn't tied to what you have. It's what you are. Yes. It's how like Seneca says, if you want to be beautiful, make beautiful choices. Yeah. No, Epictetus says that. Epictetus says that.

I do the right thing. So it's beauty is in what you do. Right. It's in how you live. So Marcus Rihis is not great because he was the emperor. Marcus Rihis made the position of emperor great. That's right. I think that's the core of it.

Yeah. And everybody should be able to see that. And it's within your power to do it. It's in your power, if it's not true, don't say it. If it's not right, don't do it. We talked about it already, but one thing I think really helps me, and I do podcasts and write on about it already, but one thing I think really helps me, and I do podcasts and write on stoicism,

but it really holds me accountable. If I don't like hypocrites, like I really, if you're gonna say you're something, even if you're saying you're a bad dude, I don't like bad dudes, but like, at least he's owning it. He isn't like pretending to be something else. So I've literally gone, I've done a podcast, I've gone, you know, I like running with my dog

and living in Montana. And I only had a certain amount of time before I get back. And I see this guy walking down the street, he's a vet, he's a little disabled, he's going to VFW. Now I could turn around and go get him. And then I'm not gonna have enough time to do my thing. But if I wouldn't have done that podcast, I'll be honest, I probably would have gone and done a run.

You would have just ignored someone who could use your help. Right, and he does it almost every day, right? So, and, but I, you know, I told myself, not to my own horn here, nothing, but I was like, you know what, I can't just go talk all that talk and then not do the right thing. Cause there's a right and wrong thing right now, right?

And of course I turned back around, he's like, I don't want your help. I'm, I'm, you, what's wrong with me? You know, but the point, the lesson was for me, like, if you're gonna, you're gonna talk about that stuff and you're gonna say you're that, it held, you have to hold yourself accountable. You will be a better person because of that, I think.

I think it's actually a little bit deeper than what you're saying. So it's not just, hey, if you're gonna talk about stoicism, you gotta live up to it. Actually, the purpose of stoicism is in that. You're supposed to talk about the ideas so then you're more likely to do them. So meditations is Marcus Aurelius reminding himself, it's like he's repeating the rosary or something, right?

He's going over the ideas. He's saying like, when people upset you, you have to remind yourself that there's an opportunity. He's saying that because later in the day, he's gonna meet someone who forces him to act on that very idea. And Epictetus says this too. He says like, he says,

he says, take these ideas, talk about them, write about them, speak about them. He's saying you're supposed to be actively engaging with the ideas, that is the philosophical practice to bring out the real life day to day practice. So it's just kind of, this is not a work of recording the stoic ideas. Meditations is Marcus doing the stoic practice in the way that meditation is the Buddhist practice.

So then when you're in the world, you're more mindful and centered and aware, right? And so he's saying, he's saying, like, look, this is the back, this is what I have on my mind. Just concentrate on what you have to do. Fix your eyes on it, remind yourself that your task is to be a good human being, remind yourself what nature demands of people, then do it without hesitation and speak the truth

as you see it, but with kindness, with humility, without hypocrisy. Yeah, there you go. That's the thing I'm talking about. It's like when you's like when we were kids and you would have to go right on the blackboard like 20 times. It's about the repetitious practice

and it kind of infuses into the body having to do that. That's what stoicism is. Yeah. And one of his most famous quotes or paraphrase is you know don't just talk about being a good man but you know be one right and I always read that it's like well I'm a Stoic and I talk about being a good man all the time right what we're doing right now but I think it's more about the importance. Yeah. The importance is actually what you do not what you say

it's that's that's kind of my point. And I think what I'm saying is that okay there's the ideas and then there's doing. And then in between is the stoic practice of journaling and talking about it and sharing it and discussing it and listening to people talk about. That's the bridge between theory and action, is the spiritual exercise of reading this book every night, of writing your own version,

of watching YouTube videos about whatever it is. It's not a thing you learn one time and then you just do forever. It's this re-engagement with the ideas over and over and over again. And so in minor situations, you see someone you can help on the street or they're asking you to do a thing that you know is wrong, but to not do it will

cost you your career. If you have meditated on that thing thousands and thousands of times, hopefully you can draw on that in that moment. That's the, to me, that's the full cycle of stoicism right there. That's right. And that's one of the things that kind of came back to me in my life, obviously the military, but then I was in CIA. And to me, that's like, my dad told me the story of the rank, right, Geige's and fighting the raid.

Tell us the story. From Plato's Republic, if I'm recalling it correctly, a farmer or shepherd digs up a giant and finds the ring and realizes that when he puts it on, I assume it's why they got the little ring thing, right? He turns invisible. And then the story that my dad told me was like, how are you gonna act when you really don't have a consequence? Right, so now it's obviously consequences to the survey and the CIA and we have oversight, so I'm not,

but I always kind of drawn back to that because you get a certain amount of authority and you're allowed to do things that other organizations can. So if you don't go in there with a solid ethical, moral principle, that can be a problem. Yes. Right. So I've always looked at it that way too, in the sense that a philosophical underpinning you carry with you. Yes.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Even when there isn't necessarily consequences for actions, you have to care, you have to care of yourself in a certain manner. There's a famous Latin expression, which I don't speak Latin, so I don't know exactly, but it's from Juvenal the poet,

and it says, who watches the watchmen, who guards the guardians, right? And the answer ultimately, I mean, you design a system with checks and balances, oversight, as you say, but ultimately the final check is philosophy, your personal ethics and guidelines and what you believe. And you could see meditations as that.

Here's the guy with no guardians. No guardians. Do whatever he wants. The final check is the ideas of Epictetus and the ideas of Zeno and the example of Cato and the example of Seneca, right? The counter example, what not to do. And the practice of him reminding himself, you know,

of what he believes and what's important. And I mean, the whole 10% of meditations is debts and lessons, right? What Marcus learned from the people in his life. And the, they don't, he doesn't give them that, right? The first chapter. Yeah, the first chapter is a list of all these things that he learned from these people.

But again, if you think about it, it was never published. So it wasn't like the acknowledgments on a book. I'm writing to publicly thank people, but also I want them to see it, right? Marcus isn't doing that. So why is he doing it? He's writing what he learned from them to remind himself what he learned, to codify it, to hold.

So he's thinking now that Antoninus is dead, what he's thinking, what would Antoninus do in this situation? What did Antoninus teach me? And that's why the absolute power doesn't corrupt in Marcus's case, because what watches the watchman, And that's why the absolute power doesn't corrupt in Marcus's case, because what watches the watchmen, what watches, what, Seneca says, no one is fit to rule

who's not first master of themselves, or you wanna command a great empire, seize command of yourself. Philosophy is the thing that is in command, even though Marcus, that's the true emperor. Not the man is just filling the position. Yep, well put. I like the guardian who's watching the watchman.

That's exactly what I was, to get that, yeah, absolutely. So what is Mattis like? Secretary Mattis is what I think people think he is. I mean, it's interesting. That's a very nice, like, if you think about the ultimate compliment, you could pay someone,

they're exactly as their reputation suggests. Right. And, you know, one of my business partners was his exo. So one of his deputies, and I was his deputy assistant in the Pentagon. And he, in some ways, he's like a badass professor. Yeah. You know what I mean? He has a very academic way about him, And he, in some ways, he's like a badass professor. Yeah.

You know what I mean? He has a very academic way about him, and he's obviously very cerebral. But he's also a Marine general. And he's spent his whole career like myself fighting, to be frank, right? So it does tend to give you a hard edge a little bit. But he is not, one thing I will definitely shoot

down this idea this Mad Dog Maddest thing. I don't think he likes it. I can't speak for him. But he's not that he's not a guy that runs around yelling and screaming and like at all. Yeah, it's very cerebral. He's in command of himself. He's very much in command of himself. But I what I would say epitomized him as a Marine for me and my son was a Marine and now starts Ranger School as an Army officer this week. He epitomizes like a servant leader. Right? So, you know, the stories about him where somebody's driving onto a base and he is Christmas Eve and he's replaced

the Lance Corporal at the gate with himself. Because he doesn't. I think the story is that man had a family and he and Max didn't. And so he said, I should be the one working on Christmas Eve. That's right. And he didn't do it for some future like people would talk about him or anything like that. I imagine he didn't even expect that. But when I was at the Pentagon with him, I'd go to get in line to drop my dry cleaning off and who was in front of me, Secretary Mattis. You just don't see that kind of stuff and you know where a guy is gonna go down

and stand in line, who's the secretary of defense, he's the most significant military in the world, potentially ever, and he's gonna sit in line and wait his turn to get, of course, and that's what people remember. I don't think he did it because people will remember him. But that's when you go, wow, this guy, I mean, he is a very significant, very influential,

very powerful, if you will, person, but he doesn't take himself too serious. Yeah, there's a series of photos that I thought were revealing where he was trying to get somewhere and there's like terrible traffic in DC and he just gets out of the car and walks. And of course the protective details losing their minds

but he's like, why would I be late for something that is a four minute walk from here? I have legs, I'll just take care of this. There's a kind of, because what happens with power and responsibility is that it can make you sort of lose your perspective as a regular person. Right. And become entitled to things being a certain way.

That's right. And from my point of view, you never got that way. And he's a model for that. And I think part of it could be Stoicism, I can't speak for him. But it's funny, it's like during the fall of Kabul and a lot of vets were trying to help Africans out, myself included, sitting across from my business partner

with Tired Seal and I get a call and it says, make Jim. And at first I thought it was my uncle Jim. And I realized, oh, that's general matter. So I stood up, there's a Marine in me. I just stood up. My, my, my, I was like, yeah.

But it's like, yeah, I talked to him about, you know, what do we need to do and help our partners out that didn't get out and stuff like that. And I sat back down and I was like, can you not kind of guess who that was? He goes, yeah, I guess, and it's Jim Mattis. Cause he shot up like, you know, like a, like a's Jim Mattis. Cause he shot up like a, you know, like a, like a jack in the box.

But so he does have that, you know, people who work for him, I think universally have that respect for him because of who he is and how he acts. And I do think he's a good model for Stoics, modern Stoics going forward. He could be that type of person. And it is, you know, go back to their early part of our conversation. I think McBasters was the national security advisor. He was the secretary of defense. And I think,

in some ways, it was a stoic resistance. I don't know if they view it that way, but looking back on it, and maybe I was a small part of it, I guess. There's another funny photo of Mattis. He was doing something in China when he was Secretary of Defense. And there's always the exchange of gifts. And they're giving him a copy of a translation of meditations called the Emperor's Handbook.

Cause China Emperor, etc. And he's like, thanks. He doesn't have like 500 copies of this book. You know, I thought it's so funny. Apparently in his house, house is even when he was a senior officer, all he had was books. Yeah.

Right? He had like a bed and a bookshelf, but yeah. So he, I think, you know, I think it is a good compliment. What people think is what, you know, what I saw. Yes. Right. And he's still like to my knowledge, and I don't want to give,

but he doesn't have like a staff. People I have obviously is info, and people know I have it's info, but I sometimes warn him like if you call it, he's gonna answer. Like so don't expect to, you know. Don't waste his time. Because you're actually gonna be taking it from him.

Right, he's gonna answer the phone, right? And you're gonna say, oh, well I figured I was talking to your chief staffers, you know, like, and it's, no, it's him, you know. That's interesting. So there's this humility there around that's never left. I don't think he ever left. No, I think he views himself, you know,

as that leader that wants to be the servant leader. You know, the kind of the Spartan view is the way that Marie-Claude always looks at it. Like if you should be almost imperceptibly distinguishable from your soldier. Yeah. You're sleeping outside. And Socrates exemplified this too.

But the Spartan leadership model is very similar to the way U.S. military views how officers should be. Yeah, I heard a story about him once, maybe it's even in his book, but he sort of met some lower level leader who was sort of getting a bit high on their own supply or was sort of removed famously like in World War II, MacArthur had fancy tablecloths.

And he said something to the young man. He said, the privilege of command is command. Yes. You don't get a bigger tent. That's right. And we can think of Marcus Reelius. He's literally writing in, he's not writing in a portable palace.

Right. He's not getting dispatches from the front about what's happening. He's there doing it. And yeah, it's like a mark of great leaders. They're, Kato famously slept on the ground with his men. They're a model of the soldier. Yeah. I always thought Kato was like the quintessential model

of the Stoic soldier, right? To me. And I think you're right. You see that in Marcus really, like the quintessential model of the Stoic soldier, right? To me. And I think you're right, you see that in Marcus, really. You see it in some of the leaders today, including General Manus, Secretary Manus. ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] Hi, I'm Anna. And I'm Emily.

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Want to hear more? Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to podcasts, or listen early and add free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. and inclusive. Visit Canada.ca slash right here to connect with one near you today. A message from the government of Canada. Will you go to your point about reputation? You know, I think there's an exchange with Cato or someone goes, you know, why don't they have a statue of you? You know, do you know the story? And in Cato, and their statue of you in Rome, and he says, I'd rather they ask why there isn't a statue

of me than ask why there is. And his point is your reputation is the monument, right? That's the statement of who you are, whether you're honored or appreciated for it, is secondary. So, you know, Marx really're honored or appreciated for it, is secondary. So, Mark's really has tried to be Mark's realist because that was the right thing to do. And the fact that somehow meditation survives

as a quirk of history and now we see him as this great man, that wasn't why. Truman was a widely hated president. In retrospect, we understand he's great. Yes. That's a vindication, sure, but I don't think he wasn't doing it because he knew he would be vindicated by history.

And Truman himself is a big fan of meditation. Some of the annotations in his copies of Met Marks really survive. And his point was, you basically, you do the right thing, because it's the right thing. And maybe people understand later, maybe they won't, but you do it because doing it is the reward, but also because not doing it is the punishment.

That's right. Yeah, that's a good point. I think I'm gonna use that Kato's story. I didn't hear that before. I thought I heard a lot of, that's one thing about going to these Stowa conferences. I don't know what it's like, because I want a Trekkie,

but when I got there the first time, it was like, holy crap, everybody's finishing what I'm gonna sing. Like I'm doing, it was odd to have that level of commonality, you know? Yeah, and that's, I've kind of had that reaction though. I think the community is a little insular

and they are under the impression that everyone, like it's actually very small. It feels big, but it's actually very small. Do you know what I mean? Like I've said, it's like, people go, oh, you know, they'll say that I'm popularizing philosophy. And I go, do you know how many copies the secrets hold? The secret, the most bullshit books of all time. So 20 million copies, right?

That's more than all of my books combined many times over. A book of complete nonsense, popularizing complete bullshit, right? So like it can feel like stoicism is popular and everyone's talking about it. But I mean, even amongst the military where it's probably vastly overrepresented, I bet if you polled a thousand young Marines,

like 10 of them would know what the fuck you're talking about. Do you know what I mean? It has reached a fraction of the people that it could reach, and ultimately that I think it needs to reach because it really does work and it has a big impact, but you get this sense, if it's what you are thinking about

and talking about all the time, you just assume everyone's operating this way. And like, again, there's a reason that the Serenity Prayer hits people, even though it's so basic and so obvious, it's not how people are raised. It's not how humans instinctively are. And it's certainly not culturally what we teach

and practice as a society. So I just think there's so much that people don't know. Hey, what's wrong with popularizing? Of course, that's the, I mean, You know what I mean? You could accuse me of many worse things than popularizing the thing that I like, that not only made an enormous difference in my life,

but that I'm most excited and interested in. Are you supposed to keep it to yourself? Yeah, it's like- Is that the idea? But also it's like, hey, that's what I set out to do. Yeah. So you just told me I said, you're not insulting me. You know what I mean?

I wasn't trying to be an obscure indie rock band who accidentally found a large audience. The whole point was, I said, I really love this stuff. I wish more people knew about it. And then I sought to popularize it. So thanks. Good on ya. Yeah.

Thanks. Like thanks for telling, I guess I did it. Yeah, right, right. And isn't that the whole point? Isn't that what we're talking about? If you want to really change the way society appears to be headed, and I know every generation thinks this, but so I'll caveat it with that.

But I think even the current generation would say, yeah, we need something more, at least when I talk to them. And I think this could be part of it. And if it gets popular and some guy or gal says, well, I'm gonna read this book, is everybody's reading it? Great, great. I mean, because there's a lot of stuff

that's getting popular that is not great. Yeah, of course. Right? And so I'm all for you. So on behalf of a guy who's been historic for a long time, thanks, Ryan Pritchard. I mean, it's wonderful to talk to more people about it. Do you know what I mean?

Like the idea that you're not alone with this thing is it. Do you know what I mean? Like the idea that you're not alone with this thing is exciting. Do you know what I mean? When I started talking about it, people were like, what is that? And the fact that more people know what these names are, it's a great thing. Yeah.

But from my vantage point, because I started so young, it does seem like, like, you know, I sit down at table in Doha and they start going, instead of talking about, you know, guys and down at table and doha and they start going, instead of talking about, you know, guys and all that stuff that's going on there, they're like, Hey, you're the dude that talks about stoicism in the military. That's pretty cool.

Whoa. And this, these were all, you know, like 40 year old, 40, 50 year old folks, but a lot of them had just, you know, heard it from the first time. And I could tell it had a big effect on them, like positive effect. And as you well know, there's certain groups of people who already mentioned the military, but it's also resonates really big

that I've seen with business people, especially people who have been successful. It's, and I've asked them, because I've never, I'm kind of in business now, but I've always been in government and military and stuff and To a man or woman that I've talked to about it's like well, I've been really successful at whatever I do But I'm looking for something bigger. Yeah, I think that's why it resonates so much with with successful business persons Is there it's like okay? Well, I've sold a lot of widgets and if it's, it's a really important widget, right? I'm not diminishing. They want something bigger.

They want something broader that they can really focus their mind on. And when you see the, you know, obviously, there's nothing wrong with wealth for stoics, but it's not that important. And they realize, wow, everything I thought was important for most of my life really isn't. I mean, they're happy they did good, but this gives them something else, I think. What I've- Well, I think ultimately, if you sort of boil down what Mark's realistosism is about,

he says it's about people. It's about other people. It's about the common good. And so you can get successful to a certain extent in business, just thinking about profit, thinking about, you know, making widgets or whatever. But then you realize as you go, it's ultimately about people.

And if you treat people well, if you think about your impact on people, you know, if you focus on those things, success, money, profit, usually operate, it usually comes as also a byproduct of that. So it's just, it's a kind of a different way of framing. I interviewed John Mackey, the founder of Whole Foods, who's interested in the Stokes too, and we talked about that.

Obviously one version of business is like, how do you get things as cheaply as possible and make them and sell them for as much money as possible? And that's basically capitalism 101, but it's sort of idea of a more conscious form of capitalism is the idea of like, well, how do we make sure that everyone involved from like the pig to the person raising the pig

to the trucker transporting the pig, how do we make it as good for them as it's capable of being? Ultimately the big dies at the end, so it's not that great for them. But its point is, how do you think about, how do you think about everyone involved? Like one, you're in business and you're, it's like, if I don't fuck the vendors,

the vendors are gonna fuck me. But another version is like, well, what do they need to be successful? What do I need to be successful? What do we need to charge a customer to be successful? And so it's, but that creates great businesses that people actually like. And sustainable business.

Yeah, and businesses that you aren't ashamed of being a part of, right? And so thinking about it that way, I think is ultimately a more sustainable and then more ethical and more stoic way of being in business. Absolutely. So talk to me about the case for a philosopher king.

So I've been kind of touching on it. I think that when we teach kids, and I told you this to my dad did is telling stories, right? So there's a lot of people we could point out in history that we'd all want our kids to emulate. Yes. Right? Marcus early is a good example. We could go down the list, I think, from Nelson Mandela to...

Harriet Tubman. Harriet Tubman. These people I wrote. But you could have your own people that you really... Yeah, who are your heroes? Who are your heroes? And why are they your heroes? And teach kids, because it is a story, the story about somebody's life, how you should act through the story.

Right? Well, if they're historic, great. I tend to favor them, but they don't have to be, right? But in public education, we could teach ethics, not just as some kind of theoretical concept of- Here are the list. But like, hey, let's talk about this person's life and when they had courage that most people wouldn't, right?

When they decided to do something that made a difference, maybe made a historical difference, maybe just made a difference, maybe made a historical difference, maybe just made a difference to another person's life, right? And teach kids that on the idea of what we want to eventually be a leader on any of the fields, not just the president, right, of our country. But that's the philosophy, King concept to me. Like I obviously played it was, and I think it really is probably came closest to it,

but the concept that that isn't just about the King, it's about any person in society who would have influence over other people, which is just about every person in society, whether your parent, teacher, you know, mailman, doctor, that they should have an underpinning that we all agree, this is a person who best epitomized what it's like to be a good man. You've read Plutarch, I'm sure.

I think when people think biography today, they think these big, thick, you know, 700, 800 page biographies that tell you every place the person, you know, when they were born, what their parents were like, their genealogy. And then so often it's like a catalog of how the person actually sucked, you know? Like deep down, here's all the horrible things they did, right? But what I get when I read Plutarch and why I think Plutarch has survived for so long,

and by the way, Plutarch's nephew is sexist, the philosopher, who Marcus thanks. Oh yeah, that's right, he does. But when you think of Plutarch as the sort of perennial biography for great men and women, biographer of great men and women of history, but, biographer of great men and women of history, but also read by the great men and women of history. It's because he was teaching biography

as a form of moral instruction. This is what they, this is what this is, Caesar crossing the Rubicon, or this is, Cato challenging Caesar, right? crossing the Rubicon or, you know, this is, you know, Cato challenging Caesar, right? He's telling the great moments, the little things in the lives that teach us about how to be or not be like that person.

And his scholarship is not that great. A lot of it's probably wrong or he invented the stories, but he was trying to capture the essence of that person to provide moral instruction and also aspirational ideas for generations of people to aspire to, you know? And I think that's what you're saying. It is what I'm saying.

And I think it's something that we could go back to in addition to teaching ethics to do it in a way that's more receptive to young people listening to it and philosophy in general. Like you should know, I think you should know the roots to history. I mean, there is some value to knowing dates and who's who and all that, but to tell it,

not just through ancient people who might not be as relevant to people today, but also the characteristics, you know, the courage, wisdom, justice, and self-discipline, which some people have a problem with. I mean, you know, and how that could be valuable today. Yeah. Through the lives of people they might be familiar with, more familiar with.

When if you read old school books, you know, like the ones that would have the story of George Washington and the Cherry Tree. Right, Cherry Tree. It's not true, he didn't do it. But I think they all, I think everyone was aware. I don't think this was bad scholarship, like or a mistaken understanding.

I think the purpose was that they understood that their teaching history was more than just facts and figures. It was about, in that case, teaching a lesson about honesty. It was also, I think, there's a parenting lesson in there too. But the idea is you were supposed to learn

those big ideas so you could model your character. Does syncynatis exist or not, or is it a Roman myth? It doesn't matter because what matters is that at the penultimate moment of Washington's life, he resigns his commission and decides not to be a king. And he did that because I think he sensed that it was the right thing to do, but I also think it's because he'd been steeped

in a tradition that taught him how that was a form of greatness greater than being the ruler. To turn the power down was to conquer, to be at transcend to an even higher level. And so those stories and those myths, that's the central and most powerful way to teach kids. And yourself, I think these lessons. Mark, Washington is not a young man

when he resigns his commission and then resigns the presidency. Like he's still steeped in that tradition all those years later. And it wasn't for that act. We couldn't have democracy that would exist that was continuous for, right, until it is now. It was one choice by one man, which is not what a lot of men would have done if

they were offered. Yeah, well, King George says, if he does that, he'll be the greatest man in the world. Yeah. King said that, you know, and realizing that he would never be that man. Yeah, right? Yeah, the other part of that story, you know, when he put his glasses on, he heard that. Yeah, the Newberg conspiracy. Well, well, when Washington put his glasses on to read his speech, apparently people didn't wear glasses and it was like a sign of weakness. Yeah. But he did it, you know. Well, so for people to go to the story, yeah. You want to talk about January 6th

as a pivotal moment in American history, the Newberg conspiracy, basically Congress has always been, you know, does the right thing at the very last moment, right? And at the very last, basically they screw over all the officers of the officers and the soldiers of the American Revolution, some dispute over pensions and pay. And there is this essentially plot or a coup attempt

where the army is gonna overthrow the civilian government. And for people, I'm telling the story, I'm sure you know it, but Washington hears of it, and he hears all the men are gathered, and he walks up, and he gives them a speech. And I believe he quotes a line from the Cato play. He talks about observing events in the calm light of mild philosophy.

And he tells a story about, he's pleading with them not to basically undo everything they did, not to undermine all the sacrifices and the cause that just created this new nation out of everything. And as he's reading his notes, he reaches into his pocket and he puts on glasses, which as you said is very uncommon,

but he was such a powerful, almost mythological figure to these men that when he puts on glasses, they see in a moment that he's an old man. And he says, I apologize for putting these glasses on. I too have gotten old in service of my country. And it shames these people. They realize nobody sacrificed, I'm getting goosebumps even saying it,

nobody has sacrificed more than this guy. I mean, his farm is burned. He loses so much. And he's been without his family. It's, you know, and he's, I've sacrificed more than anyone and I'm still loyal to this cause. And it basically dissipates the energy

of a thing that would have at that moment could have started a sort of a French revolution cycle of, you know, government, then a new government, then a new government. We trace where we are today in America to this, this singular speech with the symbolic flourish of the glasses. That's exactly what I, the way I remember it.

Yeah, I get the goosebumps too, right? That, that is, that is where we got our freedom, I think. Yeah. And he's demonstrating at these pivotal moments, the superiority of civilian over military command, that the office is what continues, not the man who holds the office when he resigns after a two, when he decides not to seek reelection after a second term.

You know, just over and over again, Washington is not talking about, he's being about, right? He's embodying the philosophy and he's setting in motion a set of norms that more or less every president since has modeled, you could argue until maybe a few years ago, but not even argue, basically sets in even the peaceful transition of power to a rival is an unbroken 200 plus year

tradition until January 6th, 2020. And I think there is a connection here, right? If we could have a philosophical underpinning, we wouldn't, I don't think, have all the issues we have today, right? Even if you just go to the basic logic of things, one of the things that I always found to be a mark of somebody who's what I would call is intelligent,

is the ability to change your mind, right? And that's not existing today, at least in generally speaking. And yeah, in Meditations and Marks for this, is if someone points out that I am in error, they've done me a favor. Yes. You know, he's like, because now I'm no longer in error. Right, and that's not the way we discuss things anymore.

Flip floppers. Yeah, you're a flip flopper. Even if you discovered new information that you know makes you wrong. Right, people nowadays just double down on whatever they thought in the first place, and they only look for things that validate it and they ignore things that don't

and they make somebody who brings up things that don't another, right? So we've gone from a point where we believe in the ideals of George Washington and freedom and democracy to a point where we're now like sports teams. Where, you know what I mean? Where like, and I get it, like a sports team, you're always gonna go for your team

and you're always gonna say you got the bad call, but like we shouldn't be that way. It's not a sports, it's not a game. It's not a sports team, it's not a fucking game. It's not a game and we're Americans. Yes. Right? And it, we're not, I would like to see people,

not the day anybody's gonna listen to me, but just drop the parties, just drop them. Well, you know, Washington said something about that. He did, he did, he warned us about that. And we're seeing it now. He watched it ruin his own cabinet. You know, Jefferson basically is the first party figure in America and it is basically a, you know,

sort of a backstabbing dick for eight years of Washington's presidency and he saw what it was gonna do. Right, and he was right. He was 100% right. Now it seems like we have two countries in the country. And there's not even another space for most people that aren't. Well, it's also realizing America is not a country.

America is a country formed around an idea. Idea, that's right. A set of ideals and you know what I mean? It's not this geographic quirk of history, it's not a certain race. It's not a religion, it's not a race, an ethical. It's a set of ideas. And it should be you either,

you buy into those ideas or maybe we need to bring back the Roman and Greek concept of exile. Because if you transgress, like there's within reason, you know, there's we should do this, we should do that, whatever, but if you don't respect the ideas or the idea or the norms, like the fuck out of here. Cause if you don't, that's treason for one,

but like this is the system you play within this system, system's pretty good. It's not perfect. It can be changed in tweet, but these are the classical ideas that this was founded on, the checks and balance that were proven over time. And at a certain level, those things are non-negotiable.

It doesn't matter how much that person agrees with you on other things, how much that person likes to own your opponents or how funny that person is or how good or bad that person is for your tax bill. There has to be a certain set of non-negotiable things, the peaceful transition of power being won, the supremacy of the civilian government over the military,

the idea that no one is above the law, right down the list, there's some non-negotiables. The democratic process, right? That is America, you just said it, it's an ideology. If you're not consistent with the ideology, you're not consistent with the whole point of the country. Yeah, yeah. Then we could just be any other country that, you know, the strongest person is in charge, right?

Yeah. And we're not. And we represent a deviation from that. And I think we should be that, you know, shining city on a hill that represents the free people of the world. Right. I know it's like, oh, yeah, whatever. People believe that. They should. That's the whole, that's what I think the whole point of the world. Right? I know it's like, oh, yeah, whatever. People believe that they should. That's what I think the whole point of the United States should be. How do people buy the people for the people? Right. And to be that power around the world for good. I'm Afwa Hirsh.

I'm Peter Francopane. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we delve into the life of Michael Gorbachev. This season has everything. It's got political ideology. It's got nuclear Armageddon. It's got love story. It's got betrayal. It's got economic collapse. One ingredient you left out, legacy. Was he someone who helped make the world a better place, saved us all from all of those terrible things, or was he about who created the problems and the challenges of many parts of the

world today? Those questions about how to think about Gorbachev, you know, was he unwitting character in history, was he one who helped forge and frame the world? And it's not necessarily just a question of our making, there is a real life binary in how his legacy is perceived. In the West, he's considered a hero, and in Russia, it's a bit of a different picture. So join us on legacy for Mikhail Gorbachev. Hello, I am Alice Levine and I am one of the hosts of Wondery's podcast British Scandal. Helkur Bacur. as there always is in this show. The man in question hadn't actually sailed before. Oh, and his boat wasn't sea-worthy.

Oh, and also tiny little detail, almost didn't mention it. He bet his family home on making it to the finish line. What Insued was one of the most complex cheating plots in British sporting history. To find out the full story, follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad-free on Wondry Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondry App.

In the 1980s, Frank Faryon was riding high as a successful German music producer, but he was bored. German pop was formulaic, dull, and oh-so-white. Frank had bigger dreams, American dreams. He wanted to create the kind of music that would rival larger than life artists like Michael Jackson or Run DMC. So he assembled a hip hop duo,

two once in a lifetime talents who were charismatic, full of sex appeal and phenomenal dancers. The only problem, one very important element was missing, but Frank knew just how to fix that. Wonder is new podcast, blameame It on the Fame, dives into one of pop music's biggest controversies. Milly Vanilly set the world on fire, but when their adoring fans learned about the infamous lip-syncing,

their downfall was swift and brutal. With exclusive interviews from frontman Fab Morfinn and his producers Frank Barriain and Ingrid Zagith, this podcast takes a fresh look at the exploitation of two young black artists. Follow Blame It on the Fame wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Blame It on the Fame early and ad-free by joining Wendery Plus. So to go to this idea of the philosopher king is I think the emphasis can accidentally or wrongly be on the king part of things. Yeah, the king is a, yeah.

Because Mussonius Rufus, who's Epictetus' philosophy teacher, he says, he actually does. He teaches a bunch of like a Syrian king. He's a philosopher who's advises these kings. And one of his big questions, he said, should kings study philosophy? And basically it comes up, he says, I think this is to me,

what the definition of a philosopher king is. He says, yes, of course, every king should study philosophy. He says, but also every philosopher should be a kingly person. And I think it's the idea, like when you think of philosopher king, you think like an all-powerful ruler guided by philosophy.

Which of course, if you're an all-powerful ruler, it's important that you're guided by philosophy. If you're gonna have them, you might. But I think what he's saying is that every person, high or low in the social hierarchy, has to be guided by a philosophy, has to be great in whatever that capacity is for them. Do you know what I mean?

And so in that way, Epictetus is a king, even though he's a slave. And Marcus Aurelius is a philosopher, even though he's a king. And when we look at the greats of history, the people you're talking about, whether it's Harriet Tubman or Cato or Stockdale, Martin Luther King, these are gondy. These are kingly people who are also in positions of leadership in some form or another. Yeah, and it might be when we look for things that we're looking for, but it's amazing how many people you could just read out that have some connection to Stoicism. Yeah, you know, whether it's Nelson Mandela reading, uh, meditations in, in, uh, Robin Island, right? Or

there's all, and maybe that's because we look for it because that's what we're interested in, but there is an unusual connection to all these people who went on to do considerable things that we all, I think, universally would say were positive things in their life, whether they were the slave or the emperor, whether they were the civil rights leader or the president, you know,

Teddy Roosevelt going down the River of Doubt. You can see his coffee about the Tidus. Yeah. I interviewed Kermit Roosevelt Jr. in New York, New York, China. His great-great grandson. Was he in the agency too? He was, I think, the founder of the, one of the founders of the agency. Yeah, he did a lot on the influence side I think yeah, not not maybe our proudest moments Think he or through the Shah verand. Yes, you're right. We that's right Well, that's well, that's why I was talking about the you know the ring of guys, right? You know, yeah, yeah, if you're given a lot of authority you got to make sure you're still have a moral compass to guide you

Right, especially if nobody's gonna know. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, but there is this remarkable tradition of great men and women being introduced to and then being influenced by stoicism. And then what I try to do in my books is, I'm not saying that Rockefeller is a stoic. I'm saying that in this specific part of his personality,

he was illustrating some stoic idea. As far as we know, Ulysses S. Grant never read a single book of philosophy in his life, but he is a great American stoic. You know what I mean? He exemplifies what we're trying to. Yeah, and that's what the Plutarch was doing, but it's also what the Stoics were doing

is they would tell these stories and use examples from people's lives to demonstrate these principles, these ideas. Sometimes the transgression of the principle and sometimes the embodiment of the principle. But it's a long tradition of sort of studying these lives. I mean, Cato doesn't write anything. Cato is a Stoic just like Socrates, because of the life. You know,

the legacy is there in the deeds. Life captured. Yeah. Act in nonverb as the Latin expression, deeds, not words. Yeah. The other thing that's always I've found interesting is that there's so much of what they thought about back then that matter today. You know, I was rereading letters to the stoic and his talk about friendship.

And I really don't remember ever focusing on that before, but as you get older, you know, some things stand out to you, right? And it kind of made me rethink, like, am I doing everything I should be to be a friend? Yeah. I mean, I have obviously like most people, you know, friends, you know, unfortunately, a lot of my

past away, to be honest. But the ones that aren't, have I done everything I need to be a good friend? Do I reach out? Do I? Because this is an issue with a lot of people today, where social isolationism has become common. And I noticed other friends of mine

that do a really good job at it. Like they will bother a friend to come out. Like, hey, what are you doing? I'm sitting, I'm not doing it. Yeah, you gotta come out. I don't wanna come out. Yeah, I'm gonna come get you. And I'm like, wow, you're kinda being aggressive

about being a friend here. And then I was like, well, maybe I'm not aggressive enough. Yeah, sure. You're paying it forward. Yeah, like I'm pretty content just hanging out with my dog and reading a book. And that's my personality, right? But is that really, but anyway,

so I bring it up because like I haven't thought about that. I wouldn't have thought about that if I wasn't rereading certain passages going, wow, this guy really considered it. Like you got to be a friend to yourself first and like you got to like yourself. Are you doing everything that you need to do? But that's a really important part of the Stoic practice,

the reading, sorry, the rereading, they're coming back to it. The Stoics love Heraclitus, who said, you know, we never step in the same river twice. The Seneca has not written any new letters since you read them the first time and they haven't discovered any new letters. But what changed is what you needed,

where you are in your life. And when I read meditations at 19, there were certain things that I needed that jumped out at me. And there were things that went way over my head that I'd never even conceived of being relevant to me. I mean, I also, it never, for instance, I just missed really the fact that a bunch of meditations,

is Mark's really talking about plagues because he was in the middle of the Antonine plague. And then COVID happens and you go, oh, he's being literal and figurative, you know? And so you see different things that your environment allows you to see or where you are in your life.

There's a Zen saying about how, you know, when the student is ready, the teacher appears, the things that you need in the text come to you based on whatever season of life you're in or what situation you're in. And so that's important that you understand that it's not a one-time read. You have to linger on that works

and come back to them and revisit them. And also, sure, Seneca hasn't written any new letters. We haven't discovered any additional books to meditations. But you know what? These books have been translated in the last 10 years alone, multiple new times by new thinkers, new academics. I'm talking to a Spanish translator

of Marx, Reales in a couple of weeks. Like when you realize, if you just take one passage and you look at five different translations of it, you almost get five different books because the author is bringing something new. One of my favorite translators of Epictetus is this guy, Thomas Wentworth Higginson. Do you know who he is?

He was a contemporary of Emerson. He was an abolitionist who leads the first black regiment in the Union army during the Civil War. So his understanding of Epictetus as a man who knows slavery and the abomination of slavery, but also knows war and the worst things that humans do to each other, is gonna be different than Robin Waterfield,

who's a great British translator of meditations in the 2000s, right? And so it's realizing that you get different things from different translations, and that's a way to rediscover it and reconnect with it in a way that they're not making any new original works of stoicism, but they also are because each translation

is an original new work. And the translator brings their own story to their translation, like what they got from it. Yes. The highlight. Yeah. No, I agree. And I think that's one of the reasons why people keep going back to the ancient texts, right? And it does, again, connect you to your history.

So it is a way to learn about who we are and why we are the way we are at a time you can make yourself, I think, a better person. I mean, yeah, there's translations of Mark Ceruleus from the time of Shakespeare where it sounds Shakespearean. Right. You know, but that's not how Rome, that's not how Marcus thought a Roman writing in Greek

in the year 160 AD would have actually sounded. That was the culture that it was being translated in. And so, a hundred year old translation is gonna read differently than a 20 year old translation it's gonna read differently than a brand spanking new translation. But it's a way, I also think it's kind of a way to triangulate

what he actually meant there because different translators are gonna see things differently and bring their own understanding to it. And so I think it's, you don't just read it once, you don't just read one copy of it. Don't even read your same copy multiple times. Like, I have my copy of meditations that I've had since I was a teenager,

but then I've also started new ones. So I am not necessarily just guided by what I noted down or thought the original time and reengaging with the material in new ways gets new ideas. Exactly right. We miss anything anything we should talk about? We have a company that focuses on conflicts, right? Yeah. But we also have an NGO that focuses on ending the use of kids in conflicts.

If you didn't get the book, I'll get you the book. Yeah. So my business partner, Eric Overkin, I did a documentary on a child soldier My business partner Eric Owork and I did a documentary on a child soldier who was in the LRA forced to become a soldier and then shot six times hitting the chest with an RPG Killed the guy next to him left out. Well, the the way we looked at it as a guy who's had a lot of RPG shot

I think the fin the stabilizing fin severed, you know, his chest and almost took his arm off, right? So he was thrown into ditch. They started burying him. And then one of the ladies that was throwing dirt on him realizes his eyes were moving. So he, he gets out, he realizes that the only way to be a value as a child soldier, when you can't use your arm is to do something else. So he knows how to navigate at night because he was taught by his dad. And then goes on to be Joseph Kony's radio operator who is still currently the second most wanted man

in the world. So obviously as the agency guy, I was like, oh, okay, that's kind of important. But aside from that, he ends up falling in love with another child soldier. They start a family in the bush, as they call it, and eventually escape and spend the rest of the life trying to help other child soldiers. So we did a documentary.

We're not documentary, man. We were like, we did it with iPhones. But it gets pretty well known because a lot of organizations used it as a way to get awareness. Yeah. And now it's being made. It's made into a book by a great author from Montana. And hopefully it will. What's it called? So the documentary is called My Star on the Sky. The books is All the Glamoring Stars. It's used the same concept because once he realized that he could,

it also is how he escaped. He realized, holy crap, I'm the celestial navigator. So if I run at night, they can't catch me, right? Cause they're gonna look for me to try to tell them how to get in front of them. So why do I bring that up in a stoic podcast? Well, actually wrote a paper. It's named Anthony Apoka.

And he hadn't ever heard of stoicism, until me, right? If you know me, you're gonna hear about it, whether you like it or not, right? But I started recognizing all these things, that really epitomized everything that I wanted to be as a stoic. Not only courage, obviously, as a soldier. He risked his life multiple times for other soldiers,

and obviously, he get his family out He was wise well beyond that would you justice this helping other people justice But also the ability to still have serious compassion When he had all the rights in the world to be an asshole sure sure sure you know I mean Every horrible thing that could be every in seen every the worst part of human nature. Sure. Yet I kind of like, you know, at a time when I was, you know,

I had gone through a lot of conflict and not personal, but actual conflict. I was a pretty bitter person, but I kept talking to him and we really close friends. Now his two youngest sons are my god sons. But I noticed in him what I wanted to be as a Stoic. And of course he was listening to me politely about Stoicism.

But anyway, so I wanted to bring that up because the book is gonna help fund this NGO. And this is a serious issue, just so. Child soldiers. Child soldiers has always been a problem. It seems inconceivable that that would be a thing. It is not only a thing. It in 2019, we me and my partner did a paper on this.

It doubled in the Middle East, doubled, right? Because as wars go on forever, largely fought through proxies, right? The guys that started it are dead. And so they only left as children and they're expendable. And nobody cares about them because they're kids in countries that people don't care about. And they're from people that people don't care about in the country. So we have a huge problem that's spreading around the world where these superpowers fight wars and kids get slaughtered.

Right. The countries are funding the wars in different to the actual human suffering and reality of how those conflicts play out. Exactly. And just how they impact the lives of so many young people who then become swallowed up by the worst nature of man. Right, it's not like you spend a couple years as a child soldier and then you go on to college. Right, that doesn't happen. You're officially, you've been sucked out of the system

and it gets worse from there. It does. And the first thing they do for kids that are soldiers, is get them to do something horrendous. Yeah. And then they take it on like a gang. soldiers is get them to do something horrendous. And then they tell them, like a gang. Yeah, it's like a gang. And then you say, like, your society is never going to accept your back, right?

Because you're a horrible person. The more injury makes reentry into society impossible. Absolutely. And kids are essentially designed to do what adults tell them. So because of the modern technology of weaponry, it doesn't take a big guy. You can fire and be devastatingly lethal and still be a small person. Right. They're not turning them into special forces operators or giving them a salt rifle and saying, point this over here. Yeah. Go in that direction and kill everything you can.

So why do I bring it up here? One, because I always try to, but it's one of our passions because we've seen it so often in the battlefield. But also because Anthony did epitomize to me, what in not just like, you know what? You and I had a modern, you know, I'm sure pretty good of upbringing. A lot of these kids don't, right?

Right, so they didn't have that shot, pretty good at upbringing. A lot of these kids don't, right? So they didn't have that shot, but he really did, to me, epitomize it or what I wanted to be. At a time when I wasn't sure, you know, anger, right? One of the things that certainly Seneca talks a lot about, but certainly something that's really big,

and actually one of the more challenging things to people. Like he gave me my example of how not to be angry, how not to let things that happened. Yeah, he has a reason to hold the crotch, I guess. Hell yeah, he did. Yeah. But he doesn't, you know. That's beautiful.

Well, thanks for coming by, that's incredible. Thanks for having me. It's been a great discussion. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode. download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.

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