The Daily - Chaos or Conscience? A Republican Explains His Vote to Oust McCarthy.

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

The ouster of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy a few days ago demonstrated how powerful a small group of hard-right House Republicans have become and how deep their grievances run.We speak to one of the eight republicans who brought down Mr. McCarthy: Representative Tim Burchett of Tennessee.Guest: Representative Tim Burchett of Tennessee’s 2nd Congressional District.Background reading: How have the Republicans who ousted Mr. McCarthy antagonized him before?Although some names have started to be bandied about, there is no clear replacement candidate for the speaker’s position.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

From New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. The ouster of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy a few days ago has demonstrated just how powerful a small group of hard-right House Republicans have become, just how far they will go in the name of ideology, and just how deep their grievances run. Today, a conversation with one of the eight Republicans who brought McCarthy down. Congressman Tim Burchett of Tennessee. It's Friday, October 6th.

October 6th. Congressman? Congressman? Oh, Congressman, you are muted on your side of this. Oh, wait, let me take that off. There we go. Can y'all hear me? I can.

Hello, Congressman. Hey, it's Tim. I don't believe I'm allowed to call you anything other than Congressman. You can call me Tim, dude, don't. And so I tell the custodians, all the custodians up here call me Tim because they are the only ones up here working. I believe you're working today. Yes, sir. I'm talking to you guys.

So I really want to thank you for making time for us. Yes, sir. It is, I think, no understatement to say, been a heck of a week in your world. It's a heck of a day. Heck of a day. And I had to make a tough decision, and I made it. It makes me wonder, are people in the Republican caucus in the House, are they talking to you right now, or are you something of a pariah?

I've always been something of a pariah, brother. I'm not, I didn't come to Washington to make friends. Well, as I think we're hinting at here, you're one of the eight House Republicans who made a very momentous decision. And that decision was to vote to oust your leader, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. First time that has happened in United States history. And I wonder how much that history, Congressman, weighed on you in the period leading up to the actual vote.

I tell you what weighed on me is just doing the right thing. Can I go over my thought process to where I got to where I voted for that? Would that be okay? Yeah, I mean, I want to make sure people understand what a journey it's been for you because you started off as a firm supporter of Speaker McCarthy. You were somebody who voted for him.

15 times. 15 times during that now agonizing process. And you weren't one of those conservative House Republicans who refused or said, I'm going to vote present. You were a formal definitive yes over and over again back in January. And yes, the reason I do want you to explain your thinking and your journey is that I think if we can understand your disillusionment with Speaker McCarthy over these last nine months, we can better understand the larger story of what has happened here. So tell us how you got from there, supporting McCarthy to here, deciding he could no longer be Speaker. Yes, sir. Well, during that time, if you've seen a lot of the pictures,

I sat beside a lot of the holdouts and I met with them because I was, you know, I'm a conservative. I'm just not angry about it. And I met with them several times during that. And I talked to them about things I thought were important and they agreed. And I went to Speaker McCarthy early on and I said, these are some things I wanted. And he gave me about assurance of about 85% of what I was interested in would happen. I wanted a fiscal note. I wanted something to say how much something costs. I remembered one time I asked him, then our ranking member, now our chair of appropriations, just how much money does this

piece of legislation cost? And she looked at me and said, I don't know. Next question. And I said, she looked at me and said, I don't know. Next question. And I said, no, you know, and later, oh, wait, whoa, you can't question her. You can't do that. You know? And then I never did find out how much that piece of legislation costs. So that was something I asked the speaker about it. And they said they would work. You said, I should be able to know exactly what the price tag is on a piece of legislation. That was one of your conditions. Yeah, absolutely. I don't think that's unusual at all. I don't walk into a supermarket and just trust the cashier to charge me whatever they think it costs. Can you just explain why these questions around fiscal transparency, why they're so important to you? And why they seem to be your primary overriding concern as a member of Congress,

and why you think they're so important for the people you represent in Tennessee. I had the very good fortune of having parents that were a good deal older than most of my buddy's parents. My brother and sister and I were both, all three of us, born very late in their lives. And my parents grew up in the Depression. And Daddy told me a story one time, and I always remembered it. He said he watched these kids and they were laughing. And he said, hey, watch this. And they ate an apple and they threw the apple core in the trash can. And some kid came by and dug through the

trash and ate that apple core. And as a young man, that made a huge impression on my daddy. This child's need and perhaps poverty. And poverty and because of irresponsibility and greed and things like that, America was thrust into a depression. I think about that and I think about the average American. I got single moms in my district working two jobs, got three kids, and we are just throwing money away on all this stuff overseas, everywhere, and not focusing on keeping our debt down and keeping inflation down. So I just want to make sure, it sounds like you're saying that the reason you care about this issue and the reason you believe your constituents care about it is a fear that

government mismanagement of our nation's finances could lead to just a truly awful outcome, whether it's something like the Great Depression of 1929 or just kind of garden variety problems in people's financial lives. Not could, but 100% will. Because nowadays, this world depends more on Americans' economy, and it would be a worldwide depression. It would be a complete devaluation of currency. Inflation would be rampant. It'd be like pre-World War II Europe, where you see the people pushing the wheelbarrow down the street full of cash, trying to buy a loaf of bread. I mean, you surely know this, right?

That there's a lot of debate about the causes of... Yeah, I know. Any one financial crisis, 1929, wasn't necessarily about government spending. But you seem quite convinced that too much government spending and not enough accountability around that spending, not enough transparency around it, is a problem. 100%. We are out of control, and we have no fiscal barometer at all. January to be able to do about that, knowing as you do, that Republicans had such a slim majority and that the next chamber, the Senate, is controlled by Democrats and the White House

is controlled by a Democrat. What did you reasonably expect, given what he told you, but given what's also possible, that he could do about these questions of transparency and spending. I expected leadership. I expected somebody to take our ideas and our values to the White House, to the Senate, and say, let's meet, let's talk about it. But you're not going to get that way by issuing a press release. I'm not going to meet with the president. I'm not going to meet with Chuck Schumer. I just... So you were disappointed when he was not engaging in more

vigorous negotiations with the Senate leader or the president. That was, to you, a dereliction. Completely. But there again, we got a real problem in this country and we better start addressing it. You know, that's why I reach out. I mean, I'm friends, Josh Gottenheimer from Jersey. I work with those folks. I talk to them about issues, things we're doing. Democrats. Yes, sir. You know, honestly, dude, we got a dadgum country to run, man.

This is ridiculous. Maybe it sells memberships, demonizing the other party or demonizing somebody, but the reality is we need to produce and get to work. I want to keep pushing on this because there is a point at which Speaker McCarthy does sit down and negotiate with Democrats and with the president, and it feels like when he does,

and it's around these issues, there are always moments where spending is on the table, you lose faith in Speaker McCarthy. And so I want to talk about those moments. And let's start with the debt ceiling. Well, we continue to raise the debt ceiling every year. And you can argue, well, that's just a grand to pay what we owed. And to me, that just sets yourself up for more economic failure, more spending. Well, what did you want Speaker McCarthy to do in that negotiation? Reduce the debt ceiling, take our views and our values to the table, and they did not. Do you believe that Speaker McCarthy never brought your perspective to the

negotiation table or just ultimately couldn't prevail in getting enough folks to support it? I just want to understand that distinction. I don't know. I just know that my views weren't being represented in whoever had his ear they were. I remembered I had a meeting with his lieutenant because I was a holdout. And the press was like, you still a no? Yep. I'm going to meet with them, though.

Great. And then a couple days before the vote, they set up a meeting. I go to this meeting, and I wait, and I wait, and I wait. I waited 20 or 30 minutes, and they didn't show up. No meeting. And the press is waiting for me outside here. And I walk out, and it was very embarrassing to me. Huh.

You were basically kind of dissed. Disrespected. And I get that. I'm the 435th most powerful member of Congress. And there's only 435 of us. But that's my number on the baseball team, by the way. And then you start with the process. You know how great I am.

They really need me, need me on board. I need you to help me. And I said, no, I'm not. I'm not. And then they go to belittling. They thought they were just going to roll me. It's not taking me to the woodshed. It's not going to work.

I don't care. I just said, I'm not with you. And I walked out. And that was it. I'm going to vote my conscience. And that's what I did. We're going to continue down this path of runaway spending until we call it into check,

and we repeatedly refused to do that. Well, you started to get at this. You voted against that deal, a deal that won many more Democratic votes than Republican to avert a U.S. government default by raising the debt ceiling back in the summer. And I'm hearing you say that a default wouldn't be catastrophic. To many others, the analysis was that it was going to be catastrophic. So I just want to be

sure I understand. It's always catastrophic when you're in the, the opposition always makes it catastrophic. And so we'll never get our fiscal ship in order. We'll never get it straightened out. And we just continue down this path of spending. And I'm not, I'm not going to be a part of it. And I don't want this phrasing to get too loaded, but wanted a situation to arise where perhaps the country did go into a potential default because it would then allow you to make this question of fiscal responsibility, spending cuts, transparency, more pressing and prominent to people that was going to give you and those like-minded more leverage. You mean what I've tried to cause it to prove my point? Yeah, that is what I'm asking. No, no, I wouldn't do that. I mean, that's a gutless thing to do. I just vote my conscience. I didn't, through my votes on fiscal issues, did not put us in this position.

votes on fiscal issues did not put us in this position, yet I'm required to fall on my sword to correct it when it will never correct if we just keep spending. You know, it's the chicken or the egg. So this addiction needs to be broken regardless. Somebody's going to have to take tough stands. Somebody's got to draw attention to it, yet nobody is. But in the end, Congressman, to it, yet nobody is. But in the end, Congressman, the deal that McCarthy signed around the debt limit ends up being a deal that you don't like

because you and a few other conservative House Republicans won't sign on to it. Therefore, he feels he has no choice but to work with Democrats to get a deal that, by definition, you're going to like even less than the one you were negotiating before. Yeah, I know where you're headed with that. And I actually asked

leadership as I've done every time to get the people that are opposed to it in a room and let's talk about it. And they never do. They want to jam us up against a wall and make us look bad in the public's eye and thinking we'll yield. And to me, that just creates animosity. You know, everybody up here, they fuss at you and cuss at you and drop F-bombs on you and say things when you walk by. Do they? Yeah. And, you know, you got bullies in there that get in your face.

They act real tough. I always like to say they're the type of guy that, when they were a kid, threw a rock over the fence and then ran home and hid behind their mama's skirt because when leadership doesn't call them down, they are endorsing that type of behavior. And so to me, that does not show leadership that shows cowardice and, um, and it's very childish behavior. And, uh, I don't like that type of leadership. I would like for him to get with us in the beginning, and let's work our differences out,

but they chose not to do that. And yeah, I'm hearing you say you're feeling marginalized, which is kind of interesting because you all, there aren't that many of you, everyone understands the power of your block of votes, whether it's the five or eight or 10 or 15 of you who can be so influential in this moment. And I'm hearing you say that you guys are not being drawn into the process in a way that makes you feel respected by Speaker McCarthy. We're not being drawn in the process at all

until the end. And then they say we're not willing to work with them. Do you think that Speaker McCarthy concluded somewhere along the way that it's just kind of futile to do that because he knows what you all stand for, because he knows the terms upon which you want to negotiate? Well, that's hard to say because we never did meet with us. I think this brings us, if we're kind of sticking with the chronology here, to this second big moment that I believe upset you and tested your faith in Speaker McCarthy, which is the potential

government shutdown last week. And the dynamics there were very much the same as they were with the debt ceiling and the potential default on U.S. debt. You did not like the deal that was being offered within the Republican caucus, which then prompted Speaker McCarthy to work with Democrats to pass a spending bill that would prevent the government from shutting down. Does that feel like an accurate description? No. Well, we were not offered the opportunity to work with Speaker McCarthy. Again. Again. Again. But once again, I think to the lay listener, it may sound a little bit like you're so frustrated at being sidelined that you're willing to let the government shut down.

Well, I'm worried about the pain that that would cause, and I say this with all sincerity. I'm worried about the pain that that would cause. And I say this with all sincerity. But I tell you what I'm more worried about is the inflation and the lack of purchase power that these people are going to get. The single moms and the teachers and people that bust their hump every day, firemen, policemen. As a result of what? Of government spending? Government spending and our economy crashing.

When you take in $5 trillion a year and you spend $7 trillion, I mean, eventually you got to realize that that's deflating the value of American currency. There's no other way around it. I just want to be sure, I'm making sure to clarify these things. A government shutdown, like a default, has consequences. Those consequences are soldiers aren't paid, law enforcement, federal law enforcement, but you're saying it's more-

No, no. They will all get paid. They will all be reimbursed, as they always are. And they do a lot of this to scare people. Both parties do it, block up the monuments, and so the veterans can't get to them, things that are going to cause maximum pain and maximum exposure. But if we enter into a depression, I dare say those people, there's the good faith and will of this country are not going to be able to take care of these people. You're saying something that I think is important to understand, which is that as with a potential default, a potential government shutdown is not going to cause the big trauma. In your mind, the big economic financial trauma is not changing

government spending patterns and your parlance addiction, which creates the real long-term economic hardships. Yes, sir. Because we're not doing it. It's institutional and we're not doing anything to fix it. And all the stuff we're doing now is just making it worse. I do see a bit of a pattern here, and I want to run it by you and get your read on it. It feels like this is what's happening in both of these cases of the default and the potential shutdown. That you and some of your colleagues, by being, maybe you would present this word, obstinate, unyielding, whatever it is. You force the government into a tricky position. I know you don't think that those positions are as traumatic as if other people do, but obviously Speaker McCarthy did.

And he worries so much that he feels he has no choice but to work with the Democrats to prevent those crises. But here's my really important question. In a sense, haven't you engineered the entire situation by being so unwilling to take anything less than what you want? conversation a few weeks ago and on Saturday, and the last thing he said to me was, I really want to be the speaker. And to me, that typified pretty much everything. What do we got that will get the votes? Not what are we principled? What are we going to fight for? And that, to me, is not leadership. That is just a barometer. You stick your finger up in the air,

figure out which way the wind's blowing, and then you jump out in front of it and take credit for it. That is not leadership. That is nothing to rally around. And the differences between him and Pelosi, and I catch a lot of hell for saying this, but she was an effective leader. And she would get an issue, put a stake in the ground and call people in and say, this is where I'm at. Where are you? And then when she put her proposal out, it would win. And that was because of that style of leadership. And that is something we're not doing. But we know that Speaker McCarthy was willing to give up this job he loved in the end because he did. And so I do want to ask this question again. He didn't have any choice. I mean, he was gone. There was no— Totally understand. But just hear me out on this. In the end, in these scenarios, is it accurate or not that you and a few of your colleagues, given your crucial role, given the numbers, engineer these situations that end with the speaker feeling like his only choice is to work with Democrats?

No, I hear what you're saying, and I hear that a lot. But I think his problem was his refusal to work with his own members. He just didn't meet with us. 15 of us, get us in a room, find out the differences. I think that would have been a wise approach. We'll be right back. So for all these reasons that you've clearly described, you have lost your faith in Speaker McCarthy by the beginning of this week. And then your colleague, Representative Matt Gaetz, files this motion to try to remove him as Speaker.

I'm curious, did you end up speaking to McCarthy before that vote? And did he appeal to you in any way that let you air out all these grievances and all these feelings of being slighted and not heard out? Did you guys talk about it? Well, he called me. I was on CNN. I think I'm one of the few Republicans that goes on CNN on a regular basis. And I said, I prayed about it, and I asked God to show me what I needed to be doing. And he called me that morning, and his opening salvo to me, I felt, was very

condescending. What did he say? Well, just mentioned something about my prayer, and then he's since come back and said he didn't say it. That's not the way he meant it or whatever, but it doesn't matter. You were not pleased with the way he framed your prayers. Yeah. So he follows up. I said something, I think, about term limits and where are we on term limits. Can I just make sure I understand that term limits are important to you. Term limits are important to me, but they're important to the American public. It pulls through the roof.

And they said, well, it died in committee. And then I said, we took six weeks off. We usually just take the month of August off. When we took off two weeks in September, I said, why did y'all send us home? I don't set the schedule. You know, Dadgummit, he's speaker. You think if Pelosi wanted us to be here over the weekend, we'd be here over the weekend? I dare say we would.

So this is another, in your mind, failure of leadership. Complete. He is the speaker of the house. One of the most powerful positions, not in Washington, not in the country, but in the dadgum world. To say that he can't say anything to the schedule, he doesn't get bills and committee, to me is not acceptable. And so I wasn't getting anywhere, and that was it. And I thought God was telling me, maybe not in an audible voice, but in my gut or my conscience, he was saying, vote your conscience,

because that's what served me very well these last few years that I've been in office. And that's the way I voted, and I voted that way. I wonder, Congressman, if you think the other seven who voted the same way you did had similar reasons and similar experiences with the Speaker. I think style of leadership is a big thing. I think fiscal responsibility is a big thing. And we just had enough. We just had enough. And so it was time to make a stand, and we did. I want to take you back to the moments after Speaker McCarthy was ousted. He gave a news conference. I don't know how much of it you watched. I watched all of it. was ousted. He gave a news conference. I don't know how much of it you watched. I watched all of it. And he basically said that, in his mind, the eight of you who voted to oust him have now created

an impossible situation for the next speaker. And when he said before that there needs to be an adult in the room, I think he meant something very particular about the ability to keep government open, avoid a default, negotiate, and sometimes reach deals that are not the best, but they're good enough. What did you hear him say when he said that? I didn't listen to it. But from what you said, I would assume that, you know, the adult in the room is going to be somebody that tells the truth, doesn't pit people against others. And that's not what we have. I took it to mean that in Congress and in a divided government, you have to compromise. I don't compromise my values. If I gave my word, I give my word. I don't represent the lobbyists up here. I represent a lot of hardworking folks back in

East Tennessee. And to them, I'm their hope, I think. And that's why I keep getting elected, and the big boys just fail to understand that. Can you describe for me, Congressman, what you want in the next speaker? Because there is a sense, you've made clear, that Speaker McCarthy told a lot of different people what they wanted to hear and then didn't live up to those commitments. told a lot of different people what they wanted to hear and then didn't live up to those commitments. And that makes me wonder if you'd support a candidate for speaker who said to you, Congressman Burchard, let me be straight with you. I can't do the things that you want in this area and this area and this area.

I know they're important to you, but I can't do them, given the math of this Congress. So just know that up front. Will you support me anyway? If somebody's straight up with me, I can handle that a lot easier. I want a strong leader, though. You know, when Daddy was in the Pacific, his colonel on a little island called Peleliu was a guy named Chesty Puller. But Daddy would, you know, he said they'd turn around on Peleliu, and hell, there'd be Colonel Puller right there with them, tightening out. That's the kind of leader I look for. I look for somebody like a Colonel Puller,

like my father, who'd get in the trenches with you and who would meet with you, not set up some appointment that you got to go to the Capitol and you wait outside and you wait and you wait and you wait. And if there's some compromise involved in that, then maybe. So integrity is the question at hand. I think so. I think so. I think that because of the vote you cast, the next few weeks are going to be very confusing and uncertain in Washington. For all kinds of procedural reasons, the House is going to not be able to do certain things because there's not a speaker, including passing spending bills. Does that bother you? We'll be back to work Tuesday, and we will elect a speaker on Wednesday. I'm confident.

We'll have one ballot on the floor, and I believe that will pass. So this is not a moment you're worried is going to drag out for some time. I don't think it will. Just to end this conversation, Congressman, let's say this new speaker who you are amenable to and who has the integrity you need for him or her to possess

gets the job. There's still a mathematical problem at the heart of what you and this small group of Republicans represent. You want something that many other of your colleagues don't want and many Democrats don't want. And so let's say you get that speaker, the one you like. Are you truly going to be willing to compromise on some of these questions we've been talking about so that you're not right back

where we were at the beginning of this conversation. If I feel like that speaker worked with me in good faith. Then you'll compromise. It depends. On spending, on fiscal matters. It depends. I'm not going to do deficit spending. There's no compromise there. There is no compromise there. There is no more money. You can't spend money you don't have. We can't just keep printing money. So that does mean we might be back where we started. If we're not going to be fiscally responsible. But I think this next speaker will understand that role. And if they don't, will you vote again to potentially oust another speaker?

I'll vote my conscience. I don't think we're going to make that mistake again. Well, Congressman Burchett, thank you very much. We appreciate your time. It's been a pleasure, brother. Thank you. Fair questions. It's been a pleasure for me as well, brother.

Thank you. It's been a pleasure for me as well, brother. Thank you. After we spoke with Congressman Burchett, we reached out to the office of former Speaker McCarthy for comment. There was no response. So far, at least two House Republicans say they will seek to replace McCarthy as Speaker. Representative Steve Scalise of Louisiana, the House Republican Majority Leader, and Representative Jim Jordan of Ohio,

an outspoken ally of former President Trump. House Republicans are expected to pick their next leader as early as Wednesday. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Thursday, a federal court ordered Alabama to use a new congressional map for next year's election that could lead the state to elect two black representatives for the first time in its history and allow Democrats to pick up another House seat in what is expected to be a closely fought battle for control of Congress. The order is the culmination of a two-year fight over an effort by Alabama's Republican lawmakers to dilute the power of Black voters in order to consolidate

Republican power. That effort has been deemed illegal by several federal courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court. And in northeastern Ukraine, dozens of people were killed when a Russian rocket hit a village shop where people had gathered for a funeral. It appeared to be one of the deadliest attacks on civilians since the war began. Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelensky, condemned the attack as a deliberate act of terrorism and a, quote, demonstrably brutal Russian crime. Today's episode was produced by Asta Chaturvedi, Olivia Nat, and Summer Tomod, with help from

Shannon Lin. It was edited by Rachel Quester and Paige Cowett, with help from Lisa Chow and Brendan Klinkenberg, contains original music by Mary Lozano and Will Reed, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Carl Hulse, Katie Edmondson, Annie Carney, and James Morrison. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Monday.