The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds - 394 - The Poison Squad

Episode Date: September 3, 2019

Comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds examine Harvey Wiley and his Poison Squad.TOUR DATESSOURCESREDBUBBLE MERCH

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watch where men of eyebrows breather through his face. Dave Anthony reach a story from American history to his friend. Gareth Reynolds who has no idea what the topic is going to be about. And Nemesis. We're now you're I'm your Nemesis. And friend. Yeah. And Nemesis. We're you're both. Let's be honest you're both. So this is a by-character. Is this what the show is gonna be like? Is it the level of comedy? I'm hoping it goes in a better direction very quickly. Because the right now. Not good. If I was listening to this. Starting it off. Turn it off. Why would you listen to this? It's also Menson and Menson. We're gonna Menson. That we have a podcast about the UK

in England on a different feed on what is that under it's under dollop UK in England. Yeah. Dollop. The dollop England and the UK. Okay. So if you look at it you'll find that and there's a few episodes of that. There's three now. We'll do ten. We'll do ten this this season and then we'll do another season after that. Anything else? Let's do it. My Nemesis. 1849. Okay. You have our Lord Jesus Christ. The common hell belief was that bad odors and bad morals cause disease. Okay. Okay. Sure. Dr. John Snow published an essay titled On the mode of communication of cholera. In it he suggested that the way cholera was passed was through the fecal oral route. Meaning that. What do you think it

means? Well I'm hoping it doesn't mean. Pathogens. This is how cholera is passed. Pathogens in fecal particles are passed from one person to the mouth of another person by tiny invisible parasites. Well I mean. Those are the best kind of parasites. Stop looking at me first of all and second of all I'm done. So let's hold hands while we talk about fecal stuff. No. No. Yeah so so we know today that that is correct but at the time everyone's like cool. Who kisses? Get out of here Waco. He did further research and during the 1854 Broad Street cholera outbreak in London he came to believe one particular Broad Street water well pump was

spreading cholera. Okay. And that was in the water. Okay. So he thinks that it's the water. Right. But he didn't find anything in water samples with his microscope. Still his findings led local the local council to disable the water pump. Okay. And I mean they handled the water crisis better than we do. Hey people in charge of Flint. Well of course to stop the pump. Today they'd be like yeah that's fine. So that has been credited with ending the outbreak but Snow said that's not it was kind of waning but whatever so he actually undermined his own. Okay. But later researchers would later determine the

well in question had been dug just three feet from an old cesspit. Okay that's a bad move. Yeah so that's not great. Well I mean it's your I mean you know you don't want to be neighbors with what's called a cesspit. Well it's you don't want your water near a poo place. No. That's a technical. The land works that low. There's a lot of connection points that yeah formed. We don't know. Yeah the cesspit was also a messed up cesspit. Anyway whatever. Okay. But it was an old one that had been sealed over and no one no one knew was there basically but they also didn't also didn't check. You know it's a whole. What's really nice to know

that they're doing that to cesspits. So that they found out. You know I'm in a band called Cesspit. I didn't know that. That's why that's why I'm doing this episode. Can I plug that real quick for the box in the twenty-third. Who kisses is opening up. They're great. They're great. So but that was later when they determined that now someone someone had previously thrown a baby's diaper into the cesspit that the baby had cholera and then that's how it ended up spreading. So the cholera was getting just from that. That was enough. One nappy. So even though snow was right nothing more was really done. That was they after the threat and moved on the cholera epidemic went down. Went away.

They rejected his theory. That's how our brains are as humans to really move on the second we feel like it's gone for a summer. It's pretty great. Right. Well there was also a lot of construction around like people built had their cesspits underneath their house and then and then they would try to get it emptied before it started overflowing and they would just a guy would come by and empty and just throw it in the tame. So so it's a bad setup. But then that means that everybody has a house like now you have to do more construction. You have to do more work. Right. So it's all a thing. So so this is this theory that he's come

up with. He's on to what is known as the germ theory. Okay. Many other since ancient times have had this same argument but it's still not caught on. Okay. In the 1600s microscopic organisms had been discovered but still no one had proven that's what was causing illness. Okay. Right. Because you can't see it. Yeah. That's the thing. Look there's a lot you can fault these people for back then. They thought a lot of but I get that. I get you can't see it being like this but I don't believe it. You know there's a bunch of little bugs you don't see and they're all over you. I'd be like of course though. So everyone was going with

the idea that cholera was from as they had thought for a long time bad smells or miasmas poisonous gases that rose up from sewers, swamps, garbage pits, open graves and other horrible smelling places. And also bad morals. They believed that bad morals caused cholera. Diseases in general. Diseases in general are caused by bad morals. Yeah. Well that's amazing. So why don't you stop the masturbating or whatever you're doing? First of all what do you not look back down at your iPad like you're about to move on when you just toss an accusation like that in the middle of this podcast. You don't masturbate. To walk away.

What are you doing right now? You are putting a crazy... Of course I have. I mean I have. You have to. It's the right opposite. Do I? I mean I can be known to. It depends. Many would argue against Snow's theory. He gave lectures and published more research but nah they're not buying it. And when he died from a stroke in 1858 it was still not believed. But then in the 1860s French chemist Louise Pasteur demonstrated that microscopic organisms can cause illnesses. In an 1884 German microbiologist Robert Koch, I just say Koch. It's got to be Koch, right? Because the Koch brothers, because the Koch brothers I say Koch, but that's not

how they spell it. Whatever. He rediscovered, isolated, and cultured the cholera bacillus. Vibrio cholere. It had previously been discovered by an Italian guy in 1854 but then no one read his stuff because it was an Italian. So all this brings us around to 1900. So professionals working in the field of health were coming around to this germ theory thing. Which is a whole new way of looking at everything, right? It's an invisible thing but they can also now see some stuff in their microscopes. So it's okay. So someone's like there might be tiny bugs. Though the common man was still going with moral

failings or just bad smells. Of course. The common guy's like this how it's always bad. It smells bad so I got the six. There were four scientists at the time against the 4,000 who were like we don't think so. No. No you know. No. I smelled it and now I've got the dye dyes. Closed from cursing. In 1903, this Saturday, a Sunday post, a story discussed water safety while it was a bad read. Which it called, quote, one of the most important matters that modern science has to deal with. Okay. Well again the year is around 1903. Right. Okay. So they're getting around to water being important. That it should be clean. Sure. Sure. And then we end that. About 80 years.

But this is before they had Britas. Yeah. I love a Brita. Public health officials were starting to believe science could eliminate all of these very common threats to the public. So everyone's going to come around, right? Sure. Things we couldn't see with the naked eye might be making us sick. Harvey W. Wiley was born in 1844 in Kent, Indiana. His father was a farmer. He went and graduated, went to and graduated from Hanover College and then got a job teaching. He's a smarty smarts. He's a smart guy. In his spare time, he studied with a doctor. And four years later, he went to Indiana Medical School, got a medical degree, took him

two terms as it should. Sure. He should be able to get out in like eight weeks or whatever. Yeah. That's how long it took? Well, two terms is probably three months. I would imagine it's the same. So six months, bang out a medical degree in six months. That's fine. That's what it should be. Yes. As long as you know where the bones are. Even then, I don't think you need to know all of them. No, I agree. Do you know how a leg is formed? Yeah. That's how our arm is basically. That's right. And then if a leg snaps off, another one grows. Like all that stuff is just medical. Yeah. So he keeps teaching at the medical school and another

university. And then he went to Lawrence Scientific School at Harvard, where he got a BS in science. In 1874, he was hired as a chemistry professor at Purdue University. Okay. He was made the state chemist of Indiana. That's big. That is big. Yeah. The state chemist. Yes. You get a hat, I'm sure. I bet you got to get a hat. Parades. Yeah. Parades for sure. Oh my God, the chemist. Here's the chemist. Look at the chemist's float. Well, these biggers sure are everywhere. Don't worry, they're taped down. His job there was to basically find food fakes. Food fakes. What does that mean? People who are faking different items. Like, we'll get to it. But people have

been faking food for a long time. Okay. There's just a few things. It's like, you know how right now, like 90% of olive oil is not actually olive oil. Right. Okay. Same deal. Okay. Like so synthetic. Yeah. Or someone's trying to pass something off is something else kind of deal. So he traveled to Germany to attend some lectures there. He was elected to the prestigious German Chemical Society. So he's getting a name, right? He's building up a resume. In Germany, Harvey spent much time working in the Imperial Food Laboratory in Bismarck, which is gorgeous. I mean, it is so imperial. Yeah. Yeah. We talk about it a lot on this

podcast. Oh, it's most of what we talk about is the imperial. I just really want to travel and see it someday. Yeah. No, for sure. When you're in Germany, there's a few sites to check out, but that's right up there. That's it. That's the number one. The Imperial Food place. There he learned to use the Polariscope and studied the chemistry of sugar. Okay. So he's fucking having fun. Sure. Right. He's just getting every day going and getting deep in the sugar. Is he? You want a bump? Harvey was also a strong believer. It's sugar, dude. It's just sugar. It's sugar. Okay. Here. Good. Can you stop? Will you stop? I don't. Oh my god, dude. Now I want water. It's

really... Oh, dude. You know, it's better water. Do a sugar. Do a sugar chaser. Track trip. Oh my god, dude. Number one. I want to know how such a weird California guy got into the Imperial Laboratory in Bismarck. My god, dude. How are you? How do you work here? Look, our secret, man. If you want to do another bump handful, I'm gonna eat another one. Oh, man. What is your job? Dude, we got to go score some checks. Okay. Come on. Let's hit the bar. No, there's no bar. Man, I am raged up right now, dude. Okay. Oh, you just had some sugar. Hey, let's start a band. No, we're not starting a band. Yeah. I'm not. We're not. We're not. Okay, so you're

making me hate sugar. That's like where I'm out right now. I'm crashing real hard right now, man. It's been like three minutes. I got to call my dad. Okay. Yeah, that's fair. Switch me shirts. Yeah. Here's... Just go. Call your dad. There's no phones, by the way. Oh, no. Oh, this predicament just got further predicamented. Harvey was also a strong believer in scientific experimentation. His autobiography quote, I arrive at my conclusions by experimentation. Meaning he's... When experimentation can be used at all, I believe in quote, trying it on the dog. Oh, damn it. What? Damn it. I mean, you know, I'm hoping to hear like... New shirts,

new doll-up shirts. Try it on the dog. No, no, no. Try it on the dog. Try it on the... That poor dog. And it's only the one. Is it really just one? Just one jog dog in all of Germany. Just one poor dog? I was like, no. Whenever he feeds me. So when he came back to Indiana, the state health board asked him to analyze honey and maple syrup. I killed eight dogs. Yeah, look, we just want you to analyze honey and maple syrup. Honey. I shouldn't be around sugar. Okay. Okay. To be honest, I just kind of came off a pretty dark ride. If you catch my drift with some sugar. I don't. Okay. I was doing... It's just sugar. I was probably up to about 12 cubes a day. Okay. At my

worst. Yeah, let's just... You want you to start the job and not talk. So honey or any sweetener for me is a slippery slope. Okay. But I'll get into the gold sugar. Okay. Play that game a little bit. What's the dog situation here? We have 42. Okay, great. Now, are you married to that number? Can we take that way down? Take it down. Okay, great. We're going to take that way down. Yeah. Yeah. So they asked him to analyze honey and maple syrup for sale to see if there were any fakes. Fake foods, as I said, have been going on since ancient times. But with chemistry, it was getting more advanced. So as chemistry picks up, as all the stuff, you know... Right. People are okay. Can peas look fresh after

treatment with C-U-S-O, a copper sulfate, which is called copper greening? So you want to get your... This... You want to wash your peas with some copper? That's always good. The pork and beans had formaldehyde. Cat's up had benzic acid. This stuff. By the way... Hmm? Go ahead. I mean, it's just like now it's like... Yeah, no, I know. Yeah, it's got byzateco like a gum. No, I know. One supposed honey manufacturer just flavored glucose and put a dead bee in each bottle for authenticity. Well, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Now, we may want to... Our instinct may be to laugh at this fellow. Yeah. You pull this off. No. You're making... This guy's fucking great. Yeah, this guy's... No, people are looking at that like,

holy shit, this guy's... Well, this is obviously honey. There's a bee in it. Dead. But I mean, what is it? It's tequila if there's a worm in it. It's honey if there's a bee in it. There are now... Now there are artificial flavors, coloring and preservatives, and detection of all the stuff is getting more advanced too. So Harvey discovered about 90% of the syrups in Indiana were fake. Wow. And honey, it went on and on. Everything's just fake. He found... For this one, it's got a bee in it. I don't even think we need to check this. That one's fine. This one's got a wasp. That's fine. It's good. It's close. This is a note that says, I owe you a bee. That's fine too. These are all fine. We don't need to check these.

He found whole grain flour was cut with bran and cornmeal. Oh, wait a minute. So they're like, it's like bad Coke deal? I would cut my flour with bran. It's good for you. Brand, brand, brand cleans you out. Is this cut with bran? Yeah. Shit, should've told me that. Good for you already. And also, you're going to hit the can. I'll hit the can. Soon. But it's not like this is a secret. A New York sugar firm advertised in the 1880s that its sugar had, quote, neither glue close, mirate of tin, miradic acid, nor any other foreign deleterious or fraudulent substance whatsoever. So people know it. But here's something that. So this is the version of non-GMO. You know what I mean? This is, but it reminds me of when Subway,

like five or six years ago, came out with a commercial where they were basically, everyone was like, wait, you have like, you've been putting yoga mats in your bread? Yeah. Like the substance you use to make yoga mats. Yeah. And they were like, we are proud to no longer be serving you yoga. Be proud of anything. You've been serving us fucking yoga mats. But at the same time, you can still go in and order extra meat and then take that, use it as yoga mat and then eat it. You can still do that. That is the only thing that it's good for is eating yoga. Yeah. Yeah. Where you want to eat your mat. Well, if you want to lick your mat while you do yoga, I say go to Subway first. Hey. I mean, really, Subway went wrong when they had

the spokesman who was having sex with young people. Well, I think that's a fair, fair point. You're not going to get a lot of pushback over here. So, his reports on all the stuff, they make it their way in a popular science magazine and he starts to become like a public crusader for health and goodness, right? Sure. So in the late 1800s, industrialization is in full swing. Okay. People's are movement of cities. This meant the American food system has to change, right? Because before that, you just go out, you pick some tomatoes, you kill a pig and then you're good to go. But now you're living in a tenement. Yeah. And you got to have food. People aren't growing their own corn and they're not, they don't have their own milk and their

own cows. After shifting to factory, it's all different. So food has to now travel further. Uh-huh. And as we've learned, we've learned to really make it go far. Techniques. We did not have, there were no refrigerators, so spoiling is an issue, right? So scientists came up with preservatives. They could keep food good for days or even weeks. So by the 1880s and 90s, people found themselves eating a lot of preservatives. Okay. Yeah. Some of those were formaldehyde, borax, and salicylic acid. Those are all good. They're good for you. All of them. Without question. But the germ method and a new way of looking at things, right? The germ theory in that

some wondered what they were eating and what the stuff did, right? You can't see it. You know what's in there. It's the same thing. Like if things you can't see are giving you infections, are they also? Maybe. Harvey was one of those people. There were more food products being made in factories with untested chemicals as preservatives and were not put on the label. Okay. So that's good. That's great. Right where we need to be. And then around the time Harvey was passed over for Purdue president when he was kind of up for it. Like he was the big, big man on campus. I think literally. He was a big man. Well, I think maybe not literally. Okay. So figuratively. Sure. That's the the other one.

Yeah. I see. Yeah. Right. Okay. So he's the big man on campus. Yeah. I don't know. No literal way. No, that's right. Not literal. Okay. I just said that to see how does it test. A test to see if I would pick up on it. That's true at all. I think you're trying to play it off. According to the book, bourbon empire by Reed and mittenbueller, the trustees were happy with Harvey's job performance, but said he was quote, too young and jovial. That's a problem. Right. Yes. Yeah. What the fuck? You're happy. You're having fun. It's a problem. Your young guy is having a good time. Fucking asshole. Nobody likes that. Look, Dower, please. And he hung out with students from the school's athletic programs. Okay. So he's fun. He's a fun young guy. He's

hanging out with guys who are young and fun. It's young fun times. However you want to ask. And he wasn't married. Okay. On top of all this, he wrote a fucking bicycle. Okay. So this really bothered these people. Faculty member quote, imagine my feelings and those of other members of the board on seeing one of our process professors dressed up like a monkey and a stride of cartwheel riding along our streets. Imagine seeing someone so elated. I wanted to stab him. What a shit head. The youth make me sick on their two wheeled machines. Look at him. Looking like monkeys. Look at him. Oh, I'm going to ride around on the bicycle instead of using my feet. You savage. We will eat him. Get your bottom off the seat.

But no worries. Harvey had fans. He was appointed chemist of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Okay. Chemical division, the USDA. Big time. So now he's in with the FETs. He was originally brought on and given money to find an alternative to sugarcane. Okay. But pretty soon after getting there, he was given a new priority, investigating what was going into food. Okay. Interesting. Now, people have been trying to fight for food reform. They've been fighting for this for a long time. Since 1879, the first federal bill had been proposed. And since then, 190 had been introduced in Congress. Okay. But they weren't all that great. One bill actually proposed a numerical count of

the contents of every package. What is? So you have to say the correct amount of grains of salt. Jesus Christ. What? It wasn't a great bill. Salt counting? It wasn't well thought out. Salt counting is like what you would like give a monk the task to do to enter a Zen state. Yeah. And 100 years later, he comes down. He's like, I've done it. It's four. I forgot. I forgot. Like cherries in a jar, et cetera. Sure. You want to get the cherries in the jar job. Salt counting. Yeah. The salt counters are five. Oh, 34 in mind. How about you? Nine million. Oh, shit. Yeah. 49 food bills during this time made it through in some form. States also did what they

could. By 1895, half the states had passed food laws. Okay. But that just meant regulations are all over the place. Right. Like some stuff you can't even bring across a border. Like it's just a fucking shit show. So you need a federal law. Yes. But then Congress passed an act that allowed, quote, the secretary of agriculture to investigate the character of food preservatives, coloring matters, and other substances added to foods to determine their relation to digestion and health and to establish the principles which should guide their use. Okay. Harvey then began experiments. Okay. He's an experimental man. Sure. We talked about this. The Washington Post, November 21st, 1902. Quote, the United States government on the

next morning will open for the first time in history a scientific boarding house under the direction of Professor Wiley. 12 young clerks, vigorous and voracious, have volunteered to become borders free of charge in the interest of science. Okay. They will eat food treated with various chemicals to prove whether or not borax or formaldehyde are injurious. Injurious. So they're, I think that would work. Yeah. So they're, they are going to get any pick themselves with this stuff. That's correct. I like that no dogs are getting hurt. Half the four, half the borders will be fed with pure foods, foods, untreated meats and vegetables, while the other half will partake in the same fare submitted to chemical treatment. So Halfridge is going to be like, this is delicious

stuff. No, because then they're going to switch them. Okay. Harvey called it the hygienic table trials. Okay. But the Washington Post reporter, a young man named George Rothwell Brown wrote the story on Harvey and called it the poison squad. Wow. Okay. Now that is much better. Good. Someone knows how to use a name. Right. So that turns out that one caught on poison squad. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the one group would eat the poison and then they'd be switched every two weeks. He got on board back and forth, back and forth. Okay. They'd get the borax quote in the form of boracic acid and to the other six borate of soda. Yeah. But basically one, every one of the volunteers are going to be eating tainted food

at some time or another. And at each meal, the amounts of borax would increase so Harvey could observe the effects. A Fox game show. I mean, I hope no one at Fox hears this because they will do this as a Fox game show. They can wear masks. We'll do it. So they are, so they're kind of just assuming that there is going to be a very initial, you're going to know, you're going to have readings or calculations on what this does pretty quick. I guess they seem but you know, they're also starting small and they're going to build up and build up. So build up two weeks and then you switch. But then the idea is to build it up over a long time like what happened in people if you were eating this stuff. So like years. Okay. But that's okay.

It's fine. It's quite a long ride. Yeah. And then he would he would observe the effects, right? Okay. So once the participants started to show symptoms, they would stop eating and move on to the next poison. Once the participants started to show symptoms of whatever symptoms of the poisoning that would happen with borax or whatever, then they would move to the next formaldehyde or whatever. Sure. Yeah. So it's a good full of borax and you're like, I can't eat anymore of that. You're absolutely right. Have some of this formaldehyde. This is a different kind of poison. Go ahead and pour that into your eyes. There you go. Right there. So every one of the volunteers were going to be eating tainted food at some time or another.

That seems very crazy. At each meal, the borax would increase. He would observe the effects. Can you just please, even if it's not real, just tell me that a guy came around with like a pepper grinder of borax and would just be like, let's just say when that's real. Thank you. Thank you. One of the participants would start to show symptoms and then they would stop eating and move on to the next poison. Ten borax. Ten borax was chosen first by Harvey. I guess it's a kind of borax, right? Because it was the safest and most widely used supposedly. Sure. This also meant it was quote, the most important of the commonly used preservatives. So he's starting with the most common one and ran a work away from work. Back the big one. Now, this was all male volunteers

because Harvey Wiley was a horrific misogynist. Okay. Even by 1900 standards. But is this not an example of someone's misogyny actually kind of? Well, in this case, it helps women. Sure. And his heart is in the wrong place. He's not obviously looking for this. He's not doing it. But I'm just saying you, I don't think you're going to be like, no, I wanted to die from borax. Harvey wouldn't allow women to be a part of it. He believed women were quote, savages. I mean, think about the temperament of what I mean, he's an incel. I mean, I mean, that is, you're never going to have sex. I mean, at this time, you cannot make that argument. Savages. Hello, savage. What? I'm just, I'm just walking by. Yes, that I don't have rights.

Savage. What an attitude. He said they didn't have quote, the brain capacity of men. You see, that's fairly common at that time. Sure. But the savage thing is not. No. Savage is a little over the top. Now, while eating food that had borax in it each day, the volunteer could not eat or drink any food that the scientists had not prepared for them. Okay. So those side meals. So if they got hungry, they had to wait until the food was served. They were not even allowed to drink water. Well, one of the problems is borax gives you a hell of an appetite. I mean, tell me about it for more. Yeah. So the water thing is crazy. They couldn't have any water. According to the post quote, they cannot even drink a friendly

glass of beer. Well, I mean, it's 1903. That comes after water. Yeah, water. Yeah. No water, but also no beer. But the weird thing is they're not allowed to have any whiskey. I mean, it doesn't make any sense. It's not adding up. Why let them live? I tell you figure out. Each of the 12 young men were also stripped, weighed and inspected before every meal. Why are they treating it like a combine? That happens at my house. What? It's a diet. It's called the Dr. Phil Day. It's called humiliate. And what we're doing over here is we are going to make we're going to guilt you into shitting those pounds. Also, they all quote, carried a satchel wherever they went with containers for urine and feces to be delivered daily to the chemist. Are they pledging a frat

potentially? Is that what's happening here? And they don't know it? Because the second that you're telling me you are having a purse toilet with you, that's a problem for me. I just say you're just cruising around. You just have on you a with your own with your waist. You've got a little bit of your feces, a little bit of your urine. And it's just in case they needed it at any time. Do you guys need any of this? Excuse me. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Do you guys need any of mine? No, no, we're just we're on break. Doodoo? No, we're on break. We're on break. Okay. Because I've by the way, to be fair, I'm looking to empty mine soon. I am just put it in that box that you have. Well, the box is full too. I'm really going through these a lot.

I don't know what's my why don't know what my deal is. Because I mean the same as everyone else. Can't handle your borax? Well, the borax is a lot of this is really a lot of pain. So what I'm carrying around in here is really it's tough. But I'm trying to talk to my friend here. Sorry, I just want to make sure you guys I thought I heard one of you guys say we need piss. Where's that guy's piss? No, we didn't say that. Okay, I have a bunch. Were you guys just at each other to say that? No, no, we're not. We are talking about can I make a prank? Can you make me a promise? If you guys are looking to buy anyone's matter, we're not today. Okay, whether we don't buy it anyway, you don't buy it, we just take it. I'm looking to move it. I mean, I've moved it,

but I'm looking to move it again. Nobody nobody's gonna want that. Okay. All right. Well, if you but keep your ear to the ground for me. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Wow. When you say wow, or you say no. Okay. All right. Bye guys. So although I did read another sources that it was weekly, but the post said daily, whatever, whatever. Once they agreed, this was a one year contract. So they're locked in for a year once they say this is life we're talking about in the 1900s. You don't have a lot of these. I know it's not great. A year of your life to this. All right, honey. Well, I'm going to die this year from eating chemicals. But I want you and the boy to feel better. And they agreed not to sue the government for damages in case something bad happened like

dying. The names of the volunteers were not made public. Harvey did tell the post that they were all clerks waiting for small salaries and that the free housing during the experiment was a very big deal to them. This is penny wise dollar foolish. You were talking about getting free room and board, but you're eating borax and meals. You're getting free meals also so poison ones. Wow, it's food. Okay. They all had passed the civil service exam, which meant they were morally upstanding young men. Yeah, let's get them out of here. Harvey also said they exhibited qualities like sobriety and reliability. Sure. They would only be described by their initials in the final report. Okay. Now, post reporter, have I said his name yet,

Brown? Yeah, Brown would become known for writing about the poison squad. He would also eventually reveal the name of some of the first rounds of volunteers. Now, when you said poison squad earlier, to me, I thought like sensationalist, like sensationalism from a reporter. They're really eating poison. But this is literally eating poison. They are the poison squad. He didn't say, Brown didn't say much about them. The volunteers, though, one was BJ Teesdale, quote, once Yale's famous 100 yard dash sprinter. Not anymore. C. Orton was, quote, formerly a captain in the local high school cadet regiment. Those days are done. And Eugene R. McCarthy was from Pennsylvania and quote, the only one of the Emerald Isles sons among the 12

subjects. That's about the extent that we ever knew about these men. Okay. Brown did not seem concerned about, he was a little bit concerned about them feeding poison to the 12 dudes. And Harvey didn't seem to be worried about it either. The newspaper reports were kind of full of levity and not really. So he, he, he dubs them the poison squad, but then doesn't really have the, yeah, it's not like you reporting. It's not like a 60 minutes report that's like, why are you feeding these people poison? It's like, what's going on with them? It's a sideline reporter more than anything. He's like, the guys are really eating a bunch of it down here, Dave. And boy, I'll tell you, they are not looking good. The doctors say at

the half they're planning on switching it from borax to formaldehyde, which they will think cause some major problems with their waste purses. Oh, JC has blood coming out of his nose. This is a turn. Look at that run. Wow. That is tremendous. All right. Brown continued to report through the entire experiment. And if any, and a lot of it, he seemed amused at in one story, Brown wrote that one volunteer quote in the spirit of mischief dropped into the lean borders coffee, which is just the way described a guy, right? Okay. About 10 grams of quinine. I don't know what quinine is, but no. What is quinine for? I don't know what it's for, but it number one, it makes you sick. You get diarrhea, stomach pains, but the list of flu

like symptoms, like it's a fucking, yeah, it's a shit show, but it's to get rid of something, but I remember friends, maybe. Yeah. It might have been a cure for VD at some point. It might be one of those kind of VDs gone. So he puts, so he dropped it into the lean borders coffee, about 10 grains of quinine, which took effect as the unsuspecting victim was on a theater date. Oh, this is what it's like. He got dumb and dumbered. The thin border who later told the story himself said he went home prepared to die in the interest of science. So he thought that because he was doing the borax experiment, no need to call a doctor, he thought he was going to, he thought that the borax experiment was killing him. These 12 guys,

the poison gang, the borax 12. I like that they're fucking with each other. Yeah, no, it is. I mean, well, it really says, it tells you about like, when you, you know, set the condition of something, what it will drive people to do, because now your pranks are becoming, I mean, your pranks in the real world, they're not going to work, but now you're going to poison this guy. Okay, quinine treats malaria. Okay, sure. Which is fairly brutal. Yes. That's why I don't know, because I mean, I haven't had it yet, but I'm going to get it. Hey, by the way, get ready, malaria is making a comeback. So like I said, they're not paid. Besides the three meals a day in room and board,

they didn't get anything. A lot of the time they couldn't even enjoy the meal because they threw up. Got that. Well, you had no idea what I don't. I mean, you signed a year deal. I'm going to eat poison for a year. I mean, I share some of the thing. They're probably doing it too, because, because think, you know, you're talking about a public good, right? You for sure. I would assume that's why they did it. Here's, here's, I mean, to me, it honestly sounds like you are just trying to kill 12 people because what you're doing is you're not, if you people are too messed up to ingest what you're giving them, you're not going to be testing results anymore. People are throwing up what you

give them. Well, these people that you're just like, well, I mean, shit, I guess we wait this year out. That's why it's two weeks on two weeks off. Oh, God, those two weeks at the end of the two weeks. Oh, such a bummer. I get two weeks off. And then when the two weeks is ending, when the two weeks is ending, you're like, Oh, no. Oh, no, man. I hope you liked regular bacon. Here's poisoned bacon for two weeks. Oh, some saw the experiments as a, some people in the world saw the experiments as a violation of personal liberty. The New York Sun called Harvey quote, chief janitor and policeman of people's insides. What's, come on. If you're trying, if you're going to try to take a guy down,

let's really hit the nail on that. I like chief janitor of people's people's insides. I don't know. Policeman of people's insides is pretty good. Shit. Wait, what is the title they gave him? Chief janitor and policeman of the people's insides. At Christmas, Brown reported that the man would not be going anywhere for a Christmas dinner. No, no, no, no, no. You don't think Turkey here poisoned Turkey quote this added to the atmosphere of gloom and an afternoon ping pong game was postponed. What did you, what did you get inside your box? Ham and powder and a cop. All right. He listed the Christmas menu. Apple sauce, borax, soup, borax, turkey, borax, borax. I think he's taking a little liberty here.

Canned string beans, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, turnips, borax, chip, beef, creamy, gravy, cranberry sauce, celery, celery pickles, rice pudding, milk bread and butter, tea, coffee, and a little borax. Oh my God. The only person Brown really gave a lot of print to as a person was the chef, Perry. Okay. Perry had a difficult job because the volunteers weren't supposed to know who was getting the food with the borax in it and who wasn't. And borax has a really bad metallic taste. So this chef is now being asked to cover up poison in his food. And so he, Brown can't name the other guys. So he just has a lot of fun talking about Perry. Right. Harvey invited Brown into observe, but now realized that was a mistake. Actually, I think going back and reading that,

that's wrong. I think that he originally didn't want people to know, but Brown got, Brown got info. Okay. So he, Harvey and his colleagues tried to end the levity of Brown's articles. So they're very upset that his articles are having a good time. Right. With the whole thing. Right. And they closed all official avenues of communication to the press. Harvey issued a gag order for all Poison Squad members. The idea that you are putting men who you are filling with poisonous fluids, who can't keep them down a gag order. This is a Thursday night for me. This is a Thursday night for you. Filling up with poisons. Right. Okay. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing's a gag order. I mean, yeah. So the reason, I mean, I look, what he's doing is not

great. But what he's doing is totally insane. I get the push. I mean, at least, at least they asked people because you look at the Tuskegee syphilis experiment and that's, but you definitely are like, I mean, I definitely going to be like, Hey, how about this? Let's come a week, a year. So if they broke the gag order, they would be fired. Now that means these guys want to stay. I would. The first thing I'm going to do is go out the window and be like, it's borax. They're giving us borax on meat. We do two weeks on two weeks off. There's 12 of us. We're all going by initials. Fire me. So I believe six left in the first year when number were replaced, but six hung in there. Like these guys didn't want. So Brown reported that the reasoning behind this was

that if the public was seeing this as something, you know, levity or as like a spectator sport, it would not be seen as a serious experiment. It was. Sure. That'll do it. Then the results would not have the importance they needed. Right. Harvey wanted to restrict the flow of information for science, but it was really too late. The idea of a poison squad made the general public thrilled. Oh, poems written. Of course, poems written. Of course, dance is made. Those poems are written like the song of the poison squad. Yeah, that's the song of the poison squad. They popped up in magazines all around the country. My favorite songs are in magazines. Ads appeared on street cars like quotes. What do you throw up into a Diller, a dollar, a chemical scholar? What makes

you go so thin because the civil service cook has put the borax in? I think I think that's a I think that's a company that's putting borax in food and is trying to convince people that well, that's crazy. But that's what he's talking about with the levity of the Jesus Christ. Oh, my God. So that's pretty much what he was worried about. Supreme Court justices were overheard joking about the poison squad in public. Songs are written and performed, such as they'll never look the same, which was performed in a minstrel show. Oh, my God. What? You just said the worst sentence I think we've heard on this show, and I'm maybe not kidding. What? Goddamn. But even with the media gag order in place, Brown was still getting his stories. But now, because of he wasn't,

I guess he wasn't getting the official line anymore, he started writing increasingly outrageous articles. Oh, no. He even wrote one that was a complete lie. Okay. Quote, the borax acid and whatnot mixed in the food have worked a change in the complexion of the 14 government clerks. So there's now to have been added to have been added quite inexplicable inexplicable to the scientific mind. Each of the young men undergoing the heroic her heroic course of treatment has blossomed out with a bright pink complexion that would make a society bell sick with envy. The borders no longer object to eating any quantity of the scientific mixtures. There is something in it for them now, and they are in consequence, the most clamorous beef eaters in all of Washington. In the words of

one border, there was one fellow at the observation table who had a complexion when he first came to the Bureau like one of the 57 varieties. Now his own girl wouldn't know him. He's got a skin like the inside of a strawberry. We call him. We call him miss, but I can't tell you his name. Any while he doesn't like to be called miss. Okay. Wow. So this guy has nothing to report. So he just decides to say that eating poison makes your skin really womanly. That's right. Okay. Which is a good thing. Yeah. The experiment has started. The experiment has started in 1902, but by July 1903, the volunteers were on to what had borax in it and what did not. Okay. So they started avoiding eating what they thought had borax in it. Okay. So clearly these guys are like this purpose is no

longer worth it. Mostly because it tasted horrible. So Harvey started to have, and also made them, you know, so Harvey started having the men take borax capsules with their meals. As the experiment went on, they ate more borax. So they're, remember, they're increasing the amount of borax they take each month. And now we're going on a year. So they started getting headaches, stomach aches, other digestive pain, diarrhea. I think our work is done. We should not be putting this in food. Naja, loss of appetite, flu-like symptoms. Yes, it's poison. Haley's boss, the secretary of agriculture, James Wilson, wanted to expand the poison program to babies and the quote, weak and sickly. Oh, God, damn it. I just... Hey, Harvey, can I talk to you for a sec? Yeah.

So I've been looking at the reports are coming in. And yeah, I mean, there's some good stuff here. These guys really have terrible diarrhea. But what I'm thinking is we should get some babies up in there and really give babies poison. You know what I mean? Are you... Let's dip some babies in some formaldehyde, some borax. All right. Are you pulling my leg? Did Ted put you on this? No, no. And then... Because I've been talking about this for about two weeks. You have. Yes. I think absolutely the next target is let's see what poisoning babies does. Okay. And then I also got a cousin. He can't move. He's like... He's just... He's like... He doesn't do anything anymore. He's just... He's a non-moving guy. Yeah. We put borax in there. We throw it in there. We put it

in that guy. Why wouldn't we? Yeah, get him in the borax. We're experimenting, right? Yes. So what about people and young things that can't say no? Yes, I think that's right. Yeah. I think that's right. I think that's exactly who we're looking for. Let's get started on this baby thing, ASAP. I'm already thinking we can do a whole fun little tie-in where they think it's baby powder, but it's actually anthrax or something of that nature. Yeah. Okay, great. I love this. I love this. Oh my god, I love killing babies. Love this. Okay, but here's the thing. Harvey did not think it would be helpful. Okay. But it doesn't sound like he thought it was a horrific idea. He just didn't think it would be helpful. He wasn't opposed on moral terms. Well, the thing is, you're saying,

they're writing articles about how it makes your complexion pink. They're talking about putting... Quote? I mean, they aren't just talking about killing babies is what they're talking about. Quote would make the test more complete, of course. And while all experimental work is troublesome, experiments with babies and persons in bad health would not be more so. As for obtaining the subjects, that wouldn't be hard. We could get the babies from infant asylums and foundling hospitals, and there are plenty of invalids. Pass, pass, pass. We don't need your qualifiers. I'm saying my objection is not, I mean, I think there's a ton of babies out there. You can just get it, you can grab a baby. They're hanging off trees. There isn't yet. And there's a lot of invalids,

especially after the war. I have a bunch of them, but I'm using them for something different. Yeah, but I just think like, why? You know what I mean? Yeah, I know. I just think it'd be kind of fun to change it up. I know. Yeah, it'd be fun. So that's what I'm thinking of. I mean, look, we've done dogs, we've done people. Yeah. I'm just kind of trying to think what we, you know, I would say let's do women, but they are just the savages. Oh my God, what's the point, savages? I mean, what is the point of that? Got the way they tried it. Okay. I'm sorry. I need to shower. I got to shower. I'm gonna throw up, and I haven't even been having borax. And another article Brown wrote of a volunteer who, quote, showed up for breakfast with his head shaved as smooth as the White House

tennis court. Crazy start was forced to rush back to the barber shop to, quote, procure the hair from which hair, which had been cut off in order that it might be weighed. But he couldn't tell his hair from the others on the barber's floor, which compromised Harvey's experiment. So he's having a good time. Yeah. So Brown is Brown is mixing the truth with just now fucking nonsense. Okay. Great. Great. But people fucking love it. Yeah. But it's so not helpful. I mean, it's like, you know what I mean? It's like the same shit we deal with now. It's just like, yeah, it's fake news. But help be helpful. As they call it in the business. Yeah. I mean, this guy's inventing clickbait. Yeah. Brown also said Lent led to problems. Well, we've all known

that because some of the volunteers refused to eat poison meat. He said Harvey gave my guess is a lot of them just took a plant. Oh, no, I'm that's I'm yeah, I'm Catholic. I'm a boron not. He said Harvey gave a stirring speech about science and how they could put their religion aside, but it didn't work. They ate poison vegetables instead. That just made the non religious volunteers upset who wanted meat. So the second phase of the experiment began in 1903. Salicylic acid, salt, Peter, copper sulfate and formaldehyde. At this time, formaldehyde was used in milk to keep it. Oh, I mean, milk's gross already. Copper, copper sulfate is now used as a pesticide. Then it was for the green peas I had mentioned earlier. Oh my God. Since

the news blackout was just causing news stories become to become more ridiculous. Harvey relaxed the media blackout. Even George Brown was back in an unnamed historian quote. As one historian put it, since reports from the experimental table factor fiction seemed certain to continue, the chief chemist took reporters into his confidence, giving them facts ready for release and trusting them not to reveal prematurely other things he told them. Okay. So now they're working with the press, right? Because they didn't work the other way. Obviously. So there's also another reason though, the government at the same time was working to suppress Harvey's reports about how harmful the additives were because they're working with the corporations and he needs the

press now 1903. Yeah, nothing's changed. But Harvey was soon being called old borax by reporters. It's like being called a bedbug. And Brown seemed to be having too much fun to change course. And Harvey wasn't helping his case. By in September 1903, Brown quoted Harvey a lot about a theory he now believed in quote, the human race is becoming hairless and toothless as the result. This is Brown to Harvey. This is Harvey's. This is Harvey to Brown. This is Harvey's theory. This is Harvey's theory. Okay. The human race is becoming hairless and toothless as I mean, when people start out with that sperm again, these will be sperm again. That's my theory. We're going all the way back quote, the human race is becoming hairless and toothless as the

result of increased intellect, intellectuality and the preference. Oh, sorry. And the prevalence of ready chewed health foods. I mean, okay, walk me through the hair part. Okay. So people are people are getting too smart and they're eating food is too ready to be chewed. Yes, they're eating so they're so they're losing their teeth because they don't need them. Sure. Right. And then and then I guess being smart makes your hair fall out. There's that one that's it's weird that there's one that is so much worse than the other. They're both horrible. Why they declare is the day is rapidly approaching when hair and teeth will become as extinct as the dodo bird. That's right. So these are Wiley's own words quote, the loss of tail hair teeth are all

steps toward human perfection. Man's brain is growing and takes a nutriment from the hair which falls out and consequently is growing less abundant year by year. Now you take a woman. Woman still has long hair, but that's because woman is still a savage. Here we go. Notice how fond she is of gaudy colors. Her brain hasn't the capacity of a man's off. Oh, my God. I mean, when you are now just taking long hair and using that you fully jumped a shark on your misogynism. It's just the like you're just a hundred percent. I've just it's insane. Like I mean, I guess people are still a hundred percent on shit today, but it's just like at this time to just be like, obviously, we will be losing our teeth and our hair and women will not

be. They like colors. So now I don't know why, but Chef Perry, I know he left to work in the military, but I don't know why he was replaced by a female cook. Okay. He must have been forced on her or something. I mean, she must have been forced on him, but whatever. So Brown brought up the female theory in another article and Dr. Wiley quote, what does a woman know about cooking? Women can potter about a domestic hearth, but when it comes to frying eggs in a scientific mode and putting formaldehyde in the soup, never question in the back from sorry. I go ahead. Gareth. Yeah. Hello. The fuck was just said. Oh, God. Sorry. So what do you you're saying that women are not good cooks? They don't know how to put formaldehyde in soup. That's where I was

headed. Now or copper sulfate and yogurt. Sure. Dumb. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. I think you've answered the question. Okay. Much. Yeah, that's just I'm a man. Yeah. No, that's coming across. His poison squad experiments continued all together for about five years. Wow. And finally in 1906, they ended and they paid off. Congress passed the Meat Inspection Act and Pure Food and Drug Act, which originally known as the Wiley Act. Obviously the writing of people like Upton Sinclair was a big part of that and other organizations did their part. The General Federation of Women's Clubs, the National Consumers League, the Patrons of Husbandry, Labor unions, American American Medical Association on President Theodore Roosevelt. So

everyone's pushing for it. But he did because of experiments, his experiments showing giving people poison. Sure. Then that then made the people sick. Sure. That is what. Okay. I have this. Yeah, go ahead. He broke a bunch of people. 200 eggs. Yeah. And made a four egg omelet. That's right. That's right. Okay. And we're all better off for it. We are even though now we're completely ignoring it. Harvey Wiley did his part in all this, as did the guys who were tortured. Yes, they did a lot. In 1907, amazing misogynist Harvey Wiley was hired as a tester by Good Housekeeping Magazine, America's Prominent Women's Magazine. Okay. He's a tester? Yes. So the magazine had. This is what I hate. Testers. Well, I just hate the way I hate the ability to

have a likability campaign after you've clearly been like. Yeah, he goes into he goes into the private private industry makes good money and does the same thing. Waging campaigns still. So he kept that. He went after the Coca-Cola company in 1911 for using the name Coca-Cola when it contained no actual cocaine. Interesting. Hilda Dion. And he said it was illegal for Coke to have cocaine as an additive. Sorry, to have caffeine as an additive. To be clear, cocaine he's cool with? He thinks because of the name, there should be cocaine. There should be cocaine as caffeine as a drug. Get it out of there. It could ruin your life. Cases against Coca-Cola was a landmark case in developing standards for truth and labeling. He worked at Good Housekeeping for 18 years.

Wow. He married Anna Kelton, who was a suffragette. Wow. I just, I just, that's, to me, that is Demos confounding sentence in the whole fucking story. She was probably just like, if I can get this asshole, I mean, I can get anyone. He called women savages and she's a suffer. I just, love is strong. Love is confusing. They had two sons and were still married on June 30, 1930, when Harvey Wiley died at his home in Washington, D.C. Now, all of the internet, there's stories about Harvey Wiley and his poison squad. Mostly fun writing today, right? But this, like, it's all written about how crazy and wacky it is, but it's a fucking gross human experiment. In his autobiography, Harvey wrote, he, quote, allowed no experiment to be carried to

the point of danger to the border's health. But he once told George Brown, quote, at times the dose has been as large as the men could stand. So he's, there's a lot of contradicting statements. Well, and the truth is too, if it's George Brown reporting it, you're also like, well, maybe he never met him. Anyway, that's how we learned to ban a bunch of preservatives. The whole experiment seemed to have been predicated on these men endangering their personal health for the good of public health. We're not for the stomach pains, the horrible discomfort. They're constant headaches. He would have never come to the conclusion that stated in his 1904 file report that both boric acid and borax created disturbances of appetite in digestion and of health,

and should be banned as food preservatives. Could have probably done it in, I mean, if I want to come in and underbid him, I can do this job in two weeks. Yeah. I mean, so the main source of this episode is pure food, the press and the poison squad evaluating the coverage of Harvey Wiley's hygienic table by Kevin Murphy, Columbia University. And then, then there's a ton of stories, and they also need to be based on a book that I did not read, but The Poison Squad, one of chemist single-minded crusades for the food safety at the turn of the 20th century by Debra Blum, who's writing I've actually read a lot. I like her as a writer, but a lot of the other, so I'll list the other sources, but they all come from her.

Okay. Except for the first one I read, which was, I think, predates her. It's weird because you have to. But I'll list them on the website. You have to, what's in your food is very important, but we live in such a weird time where it's like, people know that their food is poisoned with stuff. Yeah, we know. We always just don't care too much. I think that's when you always try to link, people are like, where do diseases come from and stuff? A lot of it is from the fact that our food is poisoned. Our food is poisoned, but also our environments. Yes. We're not taking care of our environment. No. Well, I mean, the truth is that'll lead to, that's actually probably when we become hairless and toothless

right around that phase. And he might not be wrong. I think that's when we'll probably be like, you know, we don't need our teeth and hair. Yeah. It's not great. I'll tell you when we become our plastic eating sperm. I mean, that's the plan. That's the hope. Turn this around. Yeah. All right. Well, when we did it, we sure did. I'm hungry for some cured poison.