The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds - 399 - The Third Wave

Episode Date: October 8, 2019

Comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds examine the student experiment The Third WaveSourcesTour DatesRedbubble Merch

When you're staying at an Airbnb you might be like me wondering could my place be an Airbnb and if it could what could it earn? You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. That in-law sweet guest house where your parents stay only part-time Airbnb it and make some money the rest of the year whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. You're listening to the dollop on the All Things Comedy Network. It's an American

History podcast each week. I, Dave Anthony, restore you from American history to my nemesis. Gareth Reynolds has no idea what the topic is going to be about. Now you say it and there's a lot of meaning behind it. It's not great. It's hostile. What you're saying? It's a you have a take me down aura where you're what is your problem? Well I think you're trying to take me down. Well I don't know what you've just labeled me your nemesis. I don't know if it was a label or if it was an organic name that came out that was very applicable to your all right well let's call it shady character. All right

let's just let's what let's just start this one start the show yep okay good to go. And called it quote is jam-packed. Jam-packed? I'm the fucking hippo guy. Dave okay. My name's Gary. My name's Gary. Wait. Is it for fun? And this is not going to become a tickly podcast. Okay. This is like an a five-part coefficient. My room's a place. Now hit him with a puppy. You both present sick arguments. No sleep down hippo. That's like a hippo. Action partner. Hi Gary. No. I sleep down my friend. No. No. Ronda. Ronda in the car. Your hat has swear words on it. Yeah. That's not great for kids. Well then they don't need to come into the studio and read it which reminds me if you want to see what's on my hat you can go to the All Things Comedy YouTube page and you can see the fucking nice message. So it says just be nice to people people. Okay come on how hard is that. D-O-L-L-O-P. Yeah you know me. 1967. Yeah. You're our Lord Jesus.

Yeah. All right. Ginger Baker. That's right. Just passed away. Oh did he? Yeah he died today. He did? Yeah. And he's still alive. Well this is quite a roller coaster you've gone on just now isn't it? Yeah. Palo Alto, California. Working class town back then. Now it's not. Now it's one of the richest places on earth. Sure. You know usual suburban homes, nice lawns. Main driver of the town was Stanford University. Okay. The university moved its medical center there from San Francisco and together with the city of the open industrial park that could have tons of jobs, attracted new residents. So Palo Alto had great schools. Okay. Because it's near Stanford you know. Some said the best in the country. Okay. One school,

Cumberley High School, stood out in the district for its innovation. Well I just got a text I should turn this off but I bought my dog a new toy and he got the squeaker out in under five minutes. We just stick to the and the thing I bought it. It's a Demos Durable toy. Let's just... That's clearly not Durable. It gets the squeaker out in five. Cumberley High School it's called? Yeah. Cumberley High School, okay. And it was and people took notice around the area that it was just Larry. I mean that it was doing some new stuff. Yeah. Okay. So it's innovative. It's an innovative school. The principal allowed teachers to try out

unconventional curriculums and teaching tools where students could role play in order to experience what they were learning about. Okay. One teacher at Cumberley who frequently used simulations was 25-year-old Ron Jones. The school's history and social studies teacher. Okay. He joined the school in 1965. He was a Stanford graduate. Okay. A master's degree. Okay. It was pretty pretty fancy. Sure. He stood out a bit. He didn't dress up in a suit and tie like the other teachers. He's in a suit and a tie there. Well no he's got a short sleeve shirt. Oh okay. So he's like Dennis Froms. Yeah. He's going short sleeve-y. He wore a

plain white and up... plain white and the plain white button-up shirts and he'd roll his shirt sleeves up. Okay. Right. So criminal activities as far as the conservatives are concerned. He also caused custers because he would bring in guest speakers like communists, a Klansman and a member of the American Nazi Party. This is a high school. Yeah. Okay. So he's kind of showing the kids like well this is what these people are like. Right. And he would allow them to come in and then I mean ideally you're not like oh I want to do that. Ideally. No. Yeah. He talks about afterwards and he goes well that guy's fucked in the head. Well also I would say

that the thing that we do here is like avoid the tough subjects. So it's like yeah that is good. I mean I'm sure it's interesting. As long as it's framed correctly then it's fine. As long as you're not like when the Klans guys about to come in like this next guy's awesome. You know like you just have to just be like all right look these guys are real douchebags. One of them said he'd come in here for some reason. Yeah. So so Jones was also an actor and a fiction writer and he would bring his creative side to the classes. Okay. When he's teaching the kids with the simulations especially. When you say simulations you mean the bringing in

the speakers or there's more. No there's more. He would like do like a role play thing like you know like you would have kids acts on the angle. This is why this is applicable to. Okay. Whatever. He used simulations because he wanted to show all sides of a situation. Experimental teaching was very big at the time. 1967. Jones was an exceptional teacher and all the students wanted to be in his class. Like if you were in his class other students were jealous. Okay. For three periods a day he taught contemporary history class. Okay. And in March of 67 he was teaching about the time just before World War Two

focusing on Germany. Okay. So I don't know if you know history but Germany in World War Two. No no no I know this one. Not great. Good guys. Not no. Sorry. Bad guys. Bad guys. Not kind of everyone's a bad guy but they're specifically really bad. The worst guys. Yeah. They're the worst guys. Okay. Okay. By far. Okay. Well the Japanese are not great either. There's a lot of killing happening. Okay. Okay. A student asked how the Germans were able to carry out the atrocities of the Holocaust. Good question. Great question. How does a country come to that place and Jones didn't have an answer. Okay. Later that

week he informed his classes there will be some role playing the next week. Now these are all pretty clean cut cut like 15 year old kids. Mm-hmm. Right. So that Monday the students arrived in Jones's class to find all the chairs in a row. Jones had darkened the room torn down all the posters and put on Wagner on the stereo. And these are these are children. They're 15. Okay. He told them there was going to be an experiment. Your face. Wait a minute. Every student who participated will receive an A. Okay. If they didn't participate they had to go to the library. If they just went along they would get a C. If they were active

they would get an A. If they went to the library they got an F. Okay. What's... So it's a big deal because an A in this class would help you get in college like it's a really big class and an F would really hurt. And he wasn't using he wasn't his usual smiling self on Monday. They were very used to a very happy teacher. They called him by his first name. Ron. Okay. Yeah. It's super sixies. He's intense. Okay. On this day. This is not something they'd seen before. He was a lot of fun to be around. And now he's saying they had to call him Mr. Jones. They they have to call him Mr. Jones. Yeah. Before that before they... Oh. Right.

Oh. Right. Okay. Sorry. I think you should call in Mr. Jones. No. You're calling me Mr. Jones. Right. Okay. So he lectured about discipline and started by calling discipline beautiful. Okay. He described quote how an athlete feels having worked hard and regularly to be successful at a sport how ballet dancer or painter works hard to perfect a movement. He dedicated patients the dedicated patients of a scientist in pursuit of an idea. It's discipline that self-training control the power of the will the exchange of physical hardships for superior mental and physical faculties. Ron. The ultimate triumph. Okay. What's

happening right now? We then ordered the class to sit up straight before they could sit however they liked. He didn't care how they sit. Now he's like you have to sit in a specific way. But their chairs are all like in a line, right? Right. Okay. Jones then lectured intensely on the importance of good posture. Telling them it helped them breathe easier and made them concentrate better. Uh-huh. The students all sat up straight in their chairs. And next Jones walked down the aisles and criticized each student making sure they sat perfectly where their feet flat on the floor and their hands on the small

their back forcing their spine up straight. So he's trying to like answer the question of like how did how did Germany get away with this shit? But I'm still waiting to find out how. You'll get there. He told them sitting like this they made them breathe these are like I said and if they're breathing easier they could think better and their answers would be more concise. Sure. So once Jones was satisfied with how everyone sitting everyone sitting the way he wanted he had them all stand up and walk outside the classroom. Okay. And then he told them to do an exercise run back to their chairs and sit down at attention as he

shown them as fast as possible. And it was chaos. The students are rushing in and making noise bumping into each other. Jones says you can do it faster. And so they do it again and again until they tighten it up. And the more they did it the better they get at it in a short amount of time and move quietly into class and to their seats in an orderly fashion within 15 seconds. Okay. Learned a lot today at school. It took I took hardly any time to get them there. So Jones timed them with a stopwatch and then he was ready to move on. He was like okay you've done it. But one student put his hand up and said quote I think we

can do it quicker. This kid. And so they did it. There's always this kid. Near the end of the hour Jones decided to quote push the tolerance of the class for regimented action. He introduced new rules. Students must be sitting in class at the attention position before the late bell. All students must carry pencils and paper for note-taking. When asking or answering questions a student must stand at the side of their desk. Okay. They practiced short silent reading sessions and then were asked questions and students who responded in a sluggish manner were rep reprimanded and forced to repeat it again and again until it was

a model of punctuality and respect. Okay. I miss Ron. What's up Mr. Jones. The intensity of the students response became more important than what they were talking about. Students were rewarded for making an effort and were acknowledged for it in a crisp and attentive manner. Now the students are down with all this. Well yeah. Okay. But they look at this as like he is actually doing something. Yeah. Okay. And they did everything he asked. He couldn't tell if they thought it was a game or they enjoyed the discipline or wondered if he could push them even further. So the next day he comes in. It's Tuesday and when he arrives he finds

something till they didn't expect it. They're all sitting in attention the way he made them sit before. Yeah. That's the deal. But he didn't think that they were gonna keep doing anything. What is his point? What is he doing? Well he was planning to resume the lecture and just talk about what they had done in the previous class. But because they'd all like sat back down he was like hmm. But then he goes well it seems like they want more of the experiment. Is there a curriculum? Is there anybody? No. It's a teacher making up like teachers back then you could do your own curriculum. Okay. So you decided to teach Nazi posture.

Yes. Okay. So they're sitting there stone-faced, rigid in their desks, waiting for instructions. So he decides we'll keep the experiment going. Okay. But now he didn't know where he was taking it. Well that's not good. Well so he because he didn't expect it. He thought he'd come in and give a lecture but they're all. But then what that says is your experiments over. You don't then go well what am I trying to prove now? Let's keep proving. So now he'd be making up as he went along. Okay. It looks again. So it's like improv fashion. Yes. He's like scatting an experiment. He's just now like. He's scatting Hitler. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Ba-da-ba-ba-ja. Sit in the chairs. Yeah. So he goes to the chalkboard and he had written strength through discipline the previous day. And today he writes strength through community. And he wrote communities of bond between individuals who work and struggle together. It's raising a bond with your neighbors. It's feeling that you are part of something beyond yourself. A movement, a team, La Raza, a cause. La Raza means a movement. He lectured that the community was more important than the individual. Okay. At that point he gave them the feeling of being part of a group by having them whisper together. Okay. And then start

chanting together. Okay. And then stopping their feet at the same time. He also had them practice yelling strength through discipline together as a class. Okay. Quote, first I would have two students stand and call back our motto. Then add two more. And finally the whole class was standing and reciting. It was fun. The students began to look at each other and sense the power of belonging. Everyone was capable and equal. They were doing something together. This gave them a feeling of being part of something bigger than themselves. Outside the schools, the things that was going on with Black Panthers and other groups

in the country. And then he gave the community a name. They called them the third wave. Yeah, Jones was a surfer. And in serving lore, waves come and change one after the other. And the third wave is usually the strongest wave. Okay. So with strength through discipline, Jones told the students that by sticking together, they would be the third wave of America. The strong wave. The strongest wave. Okay. He told them they could all share. They're gonna be the third wave of America? Yep. What's happening? Is he like... Simulation. Yes, but it's quite a jump into day two. Well, yeah. So is he now going like, there's

some real power here? Well, he's... Yeah, he's teaching them through a simulation what it would be like. And at the same time, he's feeling a little powerful. I do not like... I will once again go back to what I'm feeling, which is that I don't like the question he's trying to answer. And I don't like the starting of how he's doing it. He told them the entire class would share a grade if they all work together by doing their homework together. They would all get A's. He wanted them to share answers and they started working together so that everyone would get an A. This wasn't as popular with the really good students as it was

with the not as good students. This is for the students like myself. This was like... This would happen at times where they'd be like, look, you fail together, you succeed together. I'd be one of those kids like, all right, we're all failing. They'd be like, fuck. But now all the students in class were answering questions because they were working together as a group and the smarter ones were teaching the less smarter ones. And so we introduced a new rule. They all had to answer by first saying Mr. Jones and they had to answer in three words or less. Now, before classes ended on the second day, Jones told them that the

third wave members saw each other, if they saw each other in the hallway or wherever. Oh, here we go. They were to hold up their hand in a C shape, like a wave. He thought C looked like a wave cresting, right? If two members saw each other and didn't salute, it meant they didn't share the community's values and the one who didn't salute would be kicked out of the third wave. So this is happening with... He's got the three classes and it's having the same effect in each class. Meaning that they're all in. Yeah, they're all getting on board. Right. What's not to like? The, again, that he's trying to answer a question about

Nazism. So when the bill, quote, when the bill sounded ending the period, asked the class for complete silence. With everyone sitting in attention, I slowly raised my arm and with a cupped hand, I saluted. It was a silent signal of recognition. They were something special. Without command, the entire group of students returned to salute. So they now had a salute and slogans. A name. And a name. On Wednesday, Jesus. Everyone sat down for his first class and he decided, just again, he's doing this all on the fly. He decided to give them third wave ID cards. So he looks in his desk and he sees a pile of blank index cards. So he hands them out

and says these are third wave membership cards. Okay. While he's handing them out, he notices the class is larger. There's 13 students who've cut their other classes to be here. Is this a school? What is this place? This is just his classrooms. It's not a school. Well, it seems like a liberal school. I'm waiting to find out that someone in this story is a ghost. That's not gonna happen. Well, it's feeling like it. This isn't an episode of Scooby-Doo. Well, it's feeling a little Scooby-ish. Well, I mean, they probably weren't allowed to cut their class, but they did. They wanted to be a part of whatever was happening. Like, they liked it the day before. So

they... Okay, but yes. But like, the idea that like, you'd be like, where are you going? Like, oh, we're gonna go to this other guy's class now. It's like, oh, okay? No. So he's handing out the index cards. Before he does, he takes three cards and he draws red X's on them. The student who got a red X, well, they were a little special. They were to be informers. I mean, it's like 1984, the school. They were to report to Jones, anyone who was not going along with the community values. Come on. What? For example, if an informer caught a third wave member not saluting or on or off campus, they would be reported at Jones, who'd kick them out of the

community and send them to the library. How long until he thinks he's Jesus? Because it always starts out kind of fun. He knows he's a teacher. He knows what he's... Sure. They always know. They always know until, well, I just talked to God. He also made the rule that if they gathered in groups bigger than two people, they would be kicked out of the third wave. So no three third wave members together in class, on campus, off campus, wherever. Okay. Now, while only three people in each class got the red X, other people started informing. Okay. Right, to get in his good grace. Sure. And they would turn in names, people who'd done stuff that they

thought was wrong. Wow. And this is, I'm sorry, Wednesday? This is Wednesday. I mean... Hang on to your asshole, because this is going to be... Escalated timeline. Jones created a new membership process. Now a new member had to only be recommended by an existing member, and then Jones would issue them a card. Now again, the cards are blank, and what's happening with the index cards is people are drawing a wave. Right. Like the hand, like it's like that. Right. So they've each got their own individual card, but it's a card that's part of the community. Right. A new member just had to show his knowledge of the rules and pledge obedience to the

rules, and then Jones would let them in. Okay. That day, the principal gave Jones the salute at a faculty meeting. Lines are blurring. Very quick. I mean, what's the principal doing? Okay, so the principal knew what the experiment... He knew that Jones was doing an experiment about, you know, Nazi youth. He understood that. But Jones is not updating the principal about anything, and the principal didn't expect Jones to check in, because he had approved the experiment and then left Jones alone. Like he had done with many other simulations. He thought it was an effective way to teach kids about totalitarianism. Right. He's like, this

is fine. So here's him talking to the kids. I explained how discipline and community were meaningless without action. I discussed the beauty of taking full responsibility for one's action. Of believing so thoroughly in yourself and your community or family that you will do anything to preserve, protect, and extend that being. I stressed how hard work and allegiance to the other would allow accelerated learning and accomplishment. I reminded students of what it felt like being in classes, where competition causes pain and degradation. Situations in which students were pitted against each other in

everything from gym to reading. The feeling of never acting, never being a part of something, never supporting each other. This is creating a community. Sure. Sort of. A healthy utopia. New rule. Oh good. They're never supposed to criticize or question the third wave. That's a big one. A big one. Eliminating questioning authority with one rule. Pretty big. Pretty big. But one student, Sherry Towsley, stood up and asked when they could say what they felt about the third wave. Promote her. And he sent her to the library for the rest of the semester. Oh my god. What? What? For the semester? Yeah. Good god. Okay. Well, by the

way, I mean, yeah, that sends a real clear message. All right, you go to the library. Does anyone else ever want to try that? I didn't think so. Yeah, it immediately makes anybody who's going to go, well, I'm not going to question it because I don't want to sit in the fucking library. It's the warden beating the snot out of the new prisoner to be like, all right. And she's just got, she's just got an F, right? Yes, she's going to the library. More than one student was sent to the library. He also told them that he'd ruin their reputations with the other teachers. Oh my god. Whoever asked this question back on Monday is like, um, or last week or whatever. So students, students

would just disappear and no one was talking about it, right? So these students who, so students would get knocked on by the informers and then he would say, you're in the library and then you'd come in a class and they'd just be, oh, Mark's desk is empty. Right. But then no one would bring it up because they don't want to be like, hey, what happened to Mark because you go to the library. That's right. Right. You like it? I don't know what to think. So Sherry believed that he would ruin her reputation, like he said with the other teachers. Right. She told, she believed it. Sure. So she's in the library and the librarian wants to know why she's in the

library instead of in class because she's supposed to be in class and Sherry's not telling in the librarian keeps pushing. So finally she tells the librarian. Now the librarian is freaked out and she tells Sherry that she was born and raised in Nazi Germany. Okay. And it sounded like that's exactly like what was going on in Mr. Jones class. Yes. Yes. Yes, it is. Yes. It's very similar. It is. It's actually a condensed timeline. It's very good. What he's doing. So she told the librarian tells Sherry not to take it sitting down and to do something. This is some fight club shit. Who's real? I'm worried. This is like the game. But Sherry didn't know

what to do because it would have to have an impact and be in secret. So when she goes home, she tells her parents and she decides to make anti third wave posters which she signed under an alias and she came up with the alias the breakers as in breaking a wave. So she's sort of making it seem like there's another group out there. Sure. Called the breakers. Sure. Her father drove her to the school so she could put up the posters at night. But when she arrived the next morning, they were all torn down. So while the experiment was going on, she would go every night to hang posters and they'd be torn down the next morning. Eventually

she would bring a ladder and go up so high that they couldn't all be torn down. Okay. Also probably not be read. What does that say up there? What does it say? Up on the flagpole. There's a piece of paper. I can't see what the hell it says. Break. Break. Break room. Break room. Break room. Break room. Break room. Whatever. If it was important to be down here. Yeah, we weighed down low. Anyway. Anyhow. So there were a bunch of ideas of what to do coming out of his classes. Now, he gave a lecture about strength through action. They started making posters and putting them up. Members had to pass out flyers. Tables were set up in

quarters and members of the third wave would try to enlist other students. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay. No, it's when you first hear this, as I did, the rapid pace of it is astounding. But also at this point, and you don't even need to confirm or whatever, but at this point it's like, how aware is everyone as to what's going on? Because you would think that the second, that even if it was your class where you have free reign, that you, if another principal or another teacher saw you like recruiting students to come to your class, it's weird. It's like class teachers don't normally compete with each other. You know what I'm saying? They don't.

They usually don't compete for students. Again, the other teachers in the school already don't like him. Right. Okay. So I don't know how that all works out. I don't know the dynamics. But it is legitimately like, the feeling of the librarian and the feeling of other teachers there is one where they're like, he is just fully going rogue. Yeah, for sure. But there's also a lot of simulations of the school. So there's a sort of gray area. And then I didn't read anything about what other teachers thought. Okay. Because I think they're mostly all dead. So I just heard what old students had to say. Okay, okay.

So, right, so strength through action, right? They're putting up posters, trying to list other students. A senior, Rich Sloss, is passing a table between classes. Two members standing there at the table, and they've got the poster up behind them, right? Okay. All right. They say, would you like to join? And then he says, well, what's what's it about? And they say, want to get an empty index card and make a C? They say, strength through unity. And he says, right, okay, I get what you stand for. But what's it about? And they say, strength through unity. And he's like, okay, so you can't tell me what it's about. And he goes, so

no, I don't want to join your group, because I don't know what it is. And then one of the members came around the table with a spiral binder and a pencil and said, what's your name? And Rich said, I'm not going to give you my name. And then the second guy came around and Rich thought he was about to get into fist fight. Okay. And he says, I'm not giving you names. And then on that day in the school, there were fist fights breaking out between third wave members and other students. One member quote, my only feelings at that point were that we were in the right and the people picking the fights were in the wrong. He's in the

third wave that they weren't seeing what we were up to was nothing bad. It had a lot of energy and excitement and a lot of purpose. Oh my gosh. So this is just the greatest teacher of all time. Is that what this is? I mean, so I'm conflicted. So most effective. Yeah. So when I heard other students were fighting third wave members, then that just meant they didn't know what they were doing. If they knew what we were doing, they would want to join. And then there were also some students who were so desperate to join that they were excluded. Is this still Wednesday? It's still Wednesday. This is still Wednesday. I mean, he's got to be

like, I'm going to run out of my lesson plan by Friday. Yeah. I mean, Jones knew everything was going on because and farmers are literally telling him everything that is going on. Like he's getting information about everything at this point. And it's everybody. It's not just his main informers. So yeah. And he is taking all this information in and he is just going like... I think there's two things happening. I can't say for sure, but he was definitely talks about how he was slightly intoxicated by the power. Okay. That's kind of all I wanted to know. But at the same time, I think he's fascinated by

how quickly this is happening. Sure. Right. But on both account... As a teacher. On both accounts, there's not any kind of negative perception he's feeling necessarily. No, he also has... He also understands... Yeah, he also understands this is weird. But he must be leaving school like, what am I going to do? So he's finding out what someone was telling their best friend. Like he's... People are telling him fucking everything. Right. So because of this, students now don't know who to trust. The three official farmers were actually interrogating other members on their own to get as much information as

they could. Okay. And they would give Jones detailed reports even on conversation students had with their parents. Okay. With the information, Jones held mock trials, saying his secret police had given him information and then he'd call out a member in class. The member would stand up. He would tell them they had violated a rule, like being seen fraternizing with known revolutionaries. And then the class would start chanting in unison, guilty, guilty, guilty. And the person would be banished to the library. Sherry was like, hello. Sherry walked by a friend in the hallway who

saluted at her and Sherry did not return the salute. Yeah. She's been banished. And her friend was shocked and said, what do you... You didn't return the salute and Sherry told her, well, she's not in the movement and so I'm not going to return the salute. And from that moment on, her friend acted like she didn't exist. Oh my God. Is this where David Miscavige went to high school? A couple of... I don't know if it was... More people did this or if it was just these two dudes, but they used STD as an acronym for strength through discipline. And then they were joking about it. And then one joked that STD meant

stronger than dirt because that was tied slogan at the time. Okay. And then they laughed and then he went to class and was called out by Jones for saying STD meant stronger than dirt. And he looked at his friend, his friend just stared straight ahead and then he was banished from class. Oh my God. So now friends, good friends. Yes. Those are best friends snitching on each other. Yes, big brother. So... Hey, more like stronger than dirt, really. How stupid it's tied right now. Jones insisted on walking with two body cards.

A day of... The plots lost. They would walk the halls and as they walked, they would all salute in unison and students would all salute back. And then one bodyguard followed... How was school? It was pretty good. We're basically taking it over and... I'm sorry, mother. What do you mean how was school? Interesting. I'm just asking how school was. Interesting. And let me guess, you want to know how school was because I'm a... You're my son? Your son? Interesting. Interesting.

Why are you son? So you think because I'm your son that you're allowed to have knowledge of anything that goes on? Well, I'm just asking how school was. I'm not... I don't... There's the question again. What are you doing? Mother, do you like the library? Yeah, I enjoy it. You do? Yeah, I'd like to get books. I have a good time in there with Sherry, won't you? Who's Sherry? Exactly. You're part of the breakers. What? I knew it from the day I saw you.

Okay, go to your room. You go to my room. I'm only yours. What? Jesus, you don't say it. What are you doing? It's a podcast. People can't see what I'm doing. So one bodyguard followed Jones into the teacher's lounge. Are the bodyguards... Are they just separate people? Did he hire two legit bodyguards or are these like seventh graders? I haven't gotten to yet, but he basically got guys from the car club. Well, Dave, I can't wait till you get to it.

Okay. So they go to the teacher's lounge, one of the bodyguards follows them in, and the teacher looks at the kid and says, well, you're not supposed to be in here because you're a student. And the bodyguard looks at the English teacher and says, quote, I'm not a student. I'm a bodyguard. And by the way, I ate Mrs. Harris's pumpkin pie. Oh my God.

So late in the day... And if you're in the teacher's lounge, you're a teacher, and you go, hey, you can't be in here, and someone goes, I'm a bodyguard. I don't want to. This is really weird. How is your little thing going that you're doing in your class? Because there's students in here who are like Nazis. So that's weird.

He's doing his signal and has a slogan. Do you like the library, Mrs. Johnson? No, I don't. Look, I'm not part of the simulation or whatever it is. I'm just, I'm an English teacher. I'm just here having a little bit of spaghetti before I go back to my class. Okay. So that's where I'm at. Spaghetti, huh?

Don't. Interesting. Don't do this. It's a good meal to eat alone in a library. Don't do this. You're saying? Yeah, no, I know what you're saying. It's just Wednesday.

I'm aware of the day. It's almost Thursday. Thursday's going to get crazy. We're teaching Dickens, so I actually have to get back to that. Okay. Yeah, your student can stay. I don't give a shit. You'll regret this.

Okay. You crossed the wrong man. Shut up. Give me your spaghetti. No, here. Yeah. Stupid. Mine.

So. I'm in charge. So Sherry is getting curious about what's happening in the class. Yes. Sherry has a lot of time on her. She's in the library. So she walked by the class to see what was going on, but she's so fearful. She doesn't look in the class.

She just walks by and does like a side eye, you know, kind of deal. Yeah. She's looking for peripheral updates. Yeah. And the class is standing room only. So she's like. And people are waiting to get in. Oh my God.

It's got a line. There's a class that's a club now. It's a sophomore class and juniors and seniors are going in and joining the class. I'm 31. I'd love to take a stab at it too. So Jones begins to become concerned when he realizes that the kids from the higher up classes are joining. And especially when he learned that students from two other nearby high schools want to

come and join. Hey, come on. I know there's no rules so far, but you can't leave your school. I take one class a week over there as that other one. I go to cover. I do fascism at the other one and then this one I do like science and stuff. So it's growing at an alarming rate. Yes.

Jones is now concerned it could get out of control, but he keeps it going, fueling it with fiery speeches about the importance of discipline and community. So he's feeling it, right? Uh-huh. Now, by the end of Wednesday, third wave's membership had grown to 200 students. But how many students are there? You know, that I don't know. I didn't, I never, that's the kind of, there's a lot of information that's not.

So three classes, I mean class size wise, what are we talking? 18? No, I think it's a little, yeah, let's say 30. 30? Okay, so we're talking 90, so now we're up to like 200. So we've doubled inside. Yeah. Uh, as far as that bodyguard, Jones would later write that the bodyguard was one of his

dumber students. His name was Robert. Robert was a hard worker who always sat in Jones classroom during lunch alone because no one wanted to eat with him. And now this had given him a purpose and meaning. It's so weird. So the outcasts are being sucked in. They're part of something.

A kid is always, a kid is always a lot, a kid who's never had a friend. Now this is a thing that he can do. Yeah. Now he has power over people. This is a nightmare. That night. That's how Bain started. That is.

That night, Jones would seem to phone call from a rabbi of a concerned parent. Okay. Jones quote, I told them we were merely studying the German personality. He seemed delighted and told me not to worry. He would talk to the parents and calm their concern. Hey rabbi worry. Yeah. Be bothered.

But like I said, Jones was liking it. He liked the power and control. His wife told him to stop. His wife. It was dangerous, but still he knew the experiment was, you know, getting out of control. Yeah. Okay. So this is out of control.

Oh my God. The third waivers, I know it's Thursday. The third waivers arrived at school to find that the breakers, which was just Shelly, had broken into Jones's class and torn down all of their poster. And she taped her own posters up and wrote on the board, you know, breakers. Like it's basically like resist this, don't do this. But it's just her. Yeah.

Okay. The break in to the third wave headquarters was the talk of school the entire day. Okay. So now it's Watergate. Now it's called the headquarters. Yeah. Now it's definitely terms are scarier. That's us.

Yeah. That's all I was doing. So she's putting up her own posters in the first class in the morning, Jones counted 80 and he's always supposed to have 30. Jones came in with a bodyguard who's now his full-time bodyguard. Okay. Members of the car club appointed themselves his bodyguards, right? And one was now posted at the door at all times because of the break in.

Sure. Now, even if there's no class or whatever lunch, there's someone posted at the door to watch the headquarters. Jones closed the curtains this first morning, he closed the curtains, turned off the lights, shut the door and locked it and made all the members stand and stay standing. Okay. And then started the day by mock assassinating two of the students. He said, you're assassinated and you're assassinated.

Go to the library. Go to the library. They're removed. He then told the students, this is not a game. It's not just this class. He said the third wave was being used by teachers all over the country, 1,025 schools and their coordinating a movement to create a third political party that would take over the country. Okay.

So he did have something for Thursday. What? He didn't though, he came in and did it on the fly. He didn't plan any of this. He would come in and just something would hit him and he would fucking do it. The students in the class, he said, were essential to the revolution and the ones who had been removed were not up to it, but you guys are. Quote, across the country, teachers like myself have been recruiting and training a youth brigade

capable of showing the nation a better society through discipline, community, pride and action. If we can change the way this school is run, this is really dangerous. We can change the way that factories, stores, universities and all other institutions are run. You are a selected group of young people chosen to help this cause. If you will stand up and display what you have learned in the past four days, we can change the destiny of this nation. No one asked him for proof and there's no way to get Britain's away before the Internet. There's no way to look it up.

By the way, also, you don't ask for proof in this situation. I mean, you are in a cult. Then you get an F. But you go to the library. Yeah. So you just go, is anyone else has any questions? No? Okay, give them the C.

John said the third wave was being created to address the many issues of the time that began after the assassination of President Kennedy. Okay. In 1967, there had been more assassinations. The civil rights battle was raging. And most importantly, the Vietnam War was on. And all of these kids were looking at the draft in a couple of years. And the third wave now seems like an answer to possibly being drafted.

That's why now I am like, this is dangerous. So the third wave can actually save their lives, right? If a new party is being created with youth to take over, then to them. Yes, but that's why this is veering into the state of uncontrollable nature in a bad way. Now, there's also a lot of disenchantment after the killing of Kennedy that he'd been tapping into. So this was a real youth movement to change the world. Tomorrow, the students were told they would meet the third wave's presidential candidate at an assembly.

And the new leader would be giving an address on TV. On the fly? Yeah. What's his plan? I gotta go, honey, I can't go out tonight, I gotta find a presidential candidate. Maybe this wasn't on the fly. Maybe this party thought about the presidential candidate beforehand. So it seems believable, especially because a student in the back of the room holds up a magazine he had brought in.

And inside, it was a two-page ad. And no one can remember what it's for, but it's like Time Magazine or something. And the ad is a two-page ad that says the third wave is coming. So there's just this crazy fucking coincidence. This random, really? Wow. On this day, and the kid shows it. So then Ron sees that and he's like weird.

He points to his proof. He goes there, see? Right there. The third wave is coming. Thank you, Darren. Good stuff, Darren. And then he abruptly walked out. Okay.

So you're a kid in a class, and the teacher says this, and then a kid pulls out an ad. Oh, yeah. We're gonna be famous. You're in. We're awesome. We're gonna change the world. History will take note of us. So he kind of, you know, he abruptly walked out.

And my thought when I heard that he abruptly walked out was that that's sort of a peak. Like when the kid pulls out the ad, now you walk out. Because if he stays there, it could be questioned or whatever. So he shuts down any sort of abilities. Because they can't question it with each other. So he's put it out there. He's got a backup, a proof. Now he's out.

He kind of went to the bathroom to cry about how amazing this was going. He was like, there are no worlds left to conquer. I am the greatest. So he says the announcement for the big reel the next day is complete and unexpected. Even for him, he doesn't know what he's doing. The announcement of the next day with the presidential candidate. Yeah, he doesn't know. He knows he made that announcement, but he doesn't know what he's gonna do.

So now every student is completely on board. Some had just up to this point. Except for Sherry. She's in the library like, guys, he's weird. So someone just been going along for the grade. But then others were like into it. But then this now is completely flipped on its head. Like it's become like a fucking thing.

Well, now they think they're going to change the world. So some apparently never believe it. But you know, it sounds like a lot, a lot too. So one girl after this happens after he leaves tells them not to go to the assembly tomorrow that this is completely wrong. The rest of the class just stay silent. By the way, how about this? Do us a favor, get a head start to the library.

Okay, get walking to the library. So, you know, and one of the reasons they're not doing is because it's a they're they're actually thinking, well, this is part of a country right movement. And if they blow it, if their school blows it, they're into this like idea that if they blow it, the whole thing falls apart. So they're now like, well, I'm, I'm doing something that could say the lives of a bunch of other kids from the war. So they're enormous empowerment.

So their minds are blown. In a secrecy, one student, however, told her mom and her mom called and told the school counselor. And then a school counselor went to talk to Jones and Jones exiled the student to the library. Oh, she did. That's interesting. Well, I will figure it out when she comes into class today. Thank you, Debbie. Oh, hey, Karen.

Hi. How are you? Good. Yeah, now I want you to know that I have heard some of your concerns. What? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't have any concerns. You have concerns?

I don't. I don't. I don't. You have concerns? I don't. You have concerns and you raise them and I'm happy you did. I didn't raise them. I'm happy you did.

But I did. Look, I talked to your mother. No. I talked, no, no, don't get upset. What? Don't get upset. I talked to your mother. My mom?

Yes, but, but, but again, because, you know, I think you mentioned something to her. Is my mom an informer? No, no, no, no, no, no. Why did you do that? You do it with your eyes. I'm your mother's. What? She doesn't have the tightest of lips.

So she's saying some things that maybe she shouldn't around here. But, but Karen, what I want you to know is that the third wave respects what you did. Okay. And that's what makes it so gratifying to tell you. Yeah. To tell you to pack your book bag. God damn it. Because you're going to the library.

I thought you were going to say Hawaii. It felt like you were going to say Hawaii. And get to the library. God damn it. You go to the library. Hey, tell Sherry. I said, what's up? Go to the library.

Yeah. Keep yapping. Keep yapping. I'm Hitler now, baby. I don't know how it happened, but it's Thursday at 145 and I made off Hitler. A couple of high school or whatever it's called. So another student told his parents that they shouldn't go to work tomorrow, but to be by a TV at noon the next day because something really big was going to go down.

Hey, guess what? Our kid's going to kill someone. I'm going to be like, Todd, no. During the entire experiment, when parents would call to complain, the principal stood up for Jones' methods and explained what he was doing. You don't understand that what he's trying to do is create the third rike in the school. It's pretty out of the box. No one knew Jones was making it up as he went along.

Not even the principal. Okay. The next day. Oh, no, wait. So two, okay. So the next day. It's Friday now, right? Yes.

The students arrived and Jones was not in the classroom. Two bodyguards from the car club were there. And they said they were going to escort the students to the assembly in room H1. Okay. So it's like an almost theater-y type thing. A female student spoke up and told the others not to go. She was written up by her classmates. One other female student stayed behind as all the other students headed out.

So just from, you know, so the four people that stand out as standing up to whatever is going on are all women, which I find very interesting. I mean, Dave, that feels like it's a knock against guys. A little bit. But don't be raising your hand, just do what the guy says, stupid. So the lecture hall H1 fills up with about 200 third waivers. Some who had come from other schools. Weird again.

Bodyguards are standing at the doors. Sure. The news media had heard about what's going on and have now arrived to cover it. There are television cameras. There are reporters. There are photographers. So in a lot of ways, the appearance of this is now exactly what he's talking about. Yeah.

All right. Okay. Just wanted to. The lights are off. The hall's dark. Jones is standing at a podium. Everyone's sitting at ease as they had been taught and stiff with their hands on their back.

And Jones said, quote, let us show everybody the extent of our training. And they sit up and belted out their slogans, strength through discipline, strength through community, strength through action. And while they did this, they held up their C salutes. This is Friday. Is there any student who's like, hey, wasn't it weird that candy ass last week about how the Nazis came to be? Yeah, I think there are some students.

But again, he's crossed this line when he did. Oh yeah. Well, at this point, you're like, yeah. So I mean, this is, he has created, he has genuinely created a reality. So they start their chance quiet and then ratchet up to it, just a fucking yelling raw. Sure. Jones then had them sit at attention. There was a television in front of the class.

Jones said the party leader would come on at any moment. He turned on the screen, which just showed snow, right? And then he left. And then the bodyguards left. And nothing happened. And after a while, the TV crews and reporters left. A few students, but almost all the students stayed in their seats, seated, staring ahead. At snow.

At snow. And this went on for a little bit. And then one student started looking around and saw everyone was just staring blankly. And he said they looked dead to him. And with the doors closed, Jones, the bodyguards and reporters gone, his mind went to a concentration camp. Because that's what they did when they exterminated Jesus. They shut the doors and dropped gas down. And so he's picturing gas being dropped from above.

And he thinks, oh my God, they trapped us in here and they're going to kill us. Oh my God. And he panics and he stood up and he yelled, I'm getting the hell out of here. He was convinced the doors are locked and they were trapped. So he was the first one to run. Other students jumped up and started running to the doors in panic. As soon as they reached the doors, the lights came on. And Jones was standing in the back of the hall.

And he started whispering the mantras. Strength or discipline, that stuff? He's just trying to calm them down now. And it works. The students join him and start whispering until everything's calmed down. And then someone yells, there is no party leader is there. And Jones turns on a projector playing a documentary about Nazi youth. Oh my God.

I mean, is he like, give me eight mics to drop? Hand me all the mics. Thank you. What? And he said, quote, there is no leader. There's no such thing as a national youth movement called the third wave. You have been used, manipulated, shoved by your own desires into the place you now find yourself. You are no better or worse than the German Nazis we have been studying.

What? I mean, what? They're like, eh. A lot of students start to cry. Oh my God. Quote, shocked. The look of shock was like the earth was ending. They didn't know what to do.

They couldn't walk. They were sitting down. Some people wanted to leave but didn't know whether to leave or not. I thought you guys knew. I thought you guys knew what you were doing. I mean, they're hugging each other. They're weeping. One student went to Shelly and told her it was over.

Oh, Shelly. I thought her name was Sherry. Oh, no. I might be wrong. Well, whatever. Whatever. So they go to her and tell her it's over. And she thought, quote, oh my God, they found me out.

So when they come out, a student walked up to her and said it's over. Her first thought was they found it on the breakers. Like her first thought. So everyone is like on the absolute edge. Yeah. But then she was told no, the movement's over and she was being called back to the classroom. Okay. So she goes into the classroom and when she went in, she said the students seemed like

mirages. They were trembling and she felt like if she just flicked at them, they would fall over. She's like, I read a really good book on lizards. She's great. So the lizards. So the year Jones did this was the year he was up for tenure. Oh, man. And he was already hated by the conservative school board and other teachers.

So he was fucked. He lost his tenure and he was fired. There were protests. Like the students came out and held a massive rally. Pro him. Pro him. Right. Because they still love him even though, I mean, again.

Well, you have to. As much as it was horrible, like now you literally understand how fascism happens. Dave, I mean, that is as well. After a week of that, that is as well equipped as one can be to fight and be aware of propaganda. Yeah. So there's protests to keep him there and a movement to try to keep him. Mr. Jones announced he'd be leaving anyway, because Germany called. They're really, they want me there for some reason.

I don't know what's going on. Because the school board was going to restrict his teaching methods. So he's like, I can't stay here because they're not going to let me do. Right. They were like, we're going to let you start cults and authoritarian governments within their school. We're not saying that you can't teach what you want, but there will be no more heightened Nazi tension. Yeah, we just don't want like a Nazi or like a Mussolini situation happening within the school. Well, that's kind of a lot of what I was going to do in March.

Yeah, we're not going to like brown shirts or any of that stuff. Like sports are cool. You know what I mean? Like sports are fun. But like a fascist movement within the school is not great. Oh, I thought you were going to lead me in the other direction. No, it's not good. So he left a cover lead to teach in San Francisco.

The students felt a tremendous loss. This is what the principal of the experiment said, quote, I don't think it was out of control as a methodology or as a unit of learning. I thought it got out of control when he took that learning and tried to apply it to his contemporary school. He was actually coaching the United Student Movement, which had nothing to do directly with his class. But that's what I think is the immorality of what Ron Jones did. He took his advantage as a teacher with a guaranteed audience of young people to try to indoctrinate them. He wasn't teaching them. He was indoctrinating them.

And that's what I think his mistake was. It's his purpose, his intent rather than his actual teaching that was the problem. Okay. I mean, to me, I'm like, I can't. Yeah, you almost can't separate that. It's all kind of one lumped in thing as far as like, well, yeah, I mean, are you in or are you out? I don't think there's a way to really split hairs over like, I mean, did what he did? What he did?

Did it make the point? Very much made the point. Very much made the point. Yeah. But Jones is never able to teach again the way he wanted. He works with adults now with special needs, teaching them poetry and things like that. He's also a noted author and playwright and today he says there's no way he would do the third wave. He sees the experiment as a quote, a big error made by a young teacher and he realizes now that what he did was extremely dangerous.

He wrote a short story about it 10 years later, which was turn into play and then a TV special. The wave is now required reading in Germany, Israel and some places in the United States. The majority of students who participated don't regret being involved. One student went as far as to create the third wave Institute in order to continue the discussion about how quickly fascism can rise in society. It would be amazing if he was like, we're keeping it going. Ron, your vision is still true. Once we get the right candidate, we're ready. Yeah.

Wow. I think. What a crazy. Me, the most startling thing is how and this is what and this is what I have read about when you read about when authoritarian state or whatever fascism that it does happen super quickly. Dave, I mean, I think you can even I mean, I think you can even see it. You see it now. I mean, it's again, it's not within a week. This guy delivers like Grubhub.

When but when like we're not there to the point where you don't want to talk to your neighbors or you can't trust anybody to say anything. But we're we're super close to. You know, I mean, there's there's a lot of there's a lot of dudes in the army. It's a massive amount who are both keepers and crazy, crazy religious handmaid's tail ish religious type dudes and they yearn for this. So we have a large and there's always been a large section of of American society and pretty much all societies that want fascism. That's just the reality of the situation. There are fascist parties running for office in every European country. That's just how it is.

And now America gets that. Yeah. Now we've now they're out and about and they're public and they're going to always be there. Yeah. I was going to call themselves fascist, but they're going to have fascist ideals. That is one of that. That is such a weird episode. This I should say is such a weird like.

That is it is. I mean, it's just kind of fucking brilliant. Oh, it's brilliant. What he did was because the first of all, you have to like his psychological understanding of how people work to be able to pull that off. But also like to be able to just take those things and apply them and make them work. Well, and to me it's fascinating to continue to do it and continue to do it. Adding parts to go. Okay.

Here's our new carrot. Yeah. Like repeatedly, it is surprising how quickly and effective it was. Part of it is probably that you are dealing with like, you know, I think maybe a school is a place where it is a little more like heightened as far as do you belong? Do you not belong? Yeah, yeah. There's a huge and then the war is about that. And then the Kennedy stuff, like you're talking about all that, but still you would think that more connections in the moment would be made and more people would be vocal about that.

Which is the fact that happened from Monday to Friday. It's fact. This is the, I mean, I kept going back and going, this isn't right, right? This doesn't, but there's a, so most of this was taken from a documentary, which is on, if you have Amazon, it's on Amazon Prime. It's called The Lesson Plan. And it literally does it. It just goes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And you're just like, what's happening?

How is it fucking Friday? And this is all coming apart. And the kids are ready to kill. And they're talking to students who are now older and talking about what they were thinking and feeling. And it's just, you're just like, Jesus fucking Christ. It's literally, it's the big brother thing you brought up. It's that thing where no one wants to talk. No one wants to speak out.

Like once you clamp down on that. Oh, and once you, well, and once you, once you start to show, you know, it's, it really is true. And it's unfortunately the world we are kind of pining for, like you're saying, but it is like once you start, once you start to replace reward with fear, and then you show people many ways to get rewards within that fear based system, they will do it. I mean, and that's what is very troubling about today's fragile, fragile world. And yeah. And so they're the most interesting thing. And I think we can, in our, in our society right now, as you have people who are like, fuck this fascism, we have to stop it.

And then you have the fascists. And then you have this big group in the middle who want to go like, can we just go back to the way it was? Yes. And you're this people who are getting seized or going along. Those are the people. Right. They're not stepping up to fight. They're not stepping up to do anything.

They're just like, so I just want to keep my house in my car and just hang out and not do anything. Like, well, eventually. Well, you're like, you're part of it. You're like, this bubble is either going to get bled out or popped. Yeah. So you pick because they, but they, they, they cannot see it. No, I know. But it is, I mean, that's, that's what gets you dystopia.

Yeah. Is by saying, you know, all I wanted my little thing, my little thing, it's like, well, no, now's the time to sort of say, I'm willing to sacrifice my car, my home to like fall on the sword for the greater good. We have a lot of politicians in this country who want to keep their jobs and want to keep taking money from Google and, and Lyft and Uber and don't want to actually step up and kick this thing in the nuts. Yeah. And those are the ones that are the worst. And they're mostly, they're mostly Democrats who are corrupt that are doing that.

There's a lot of Democrats that are trying to fight it, but there's a lot of Democrats that are just corrupt. Fascinating about the Democrats, the ones in charge as the way that they say, let's do this. Let's investigate. Let's not do the financial stuff. You know, wait, what, what, what are you saying? Well, no, let's, let's get him. I mean, obviously Trump is, he's up. Oh God, we can't take four more years of this.

Let's get him on the, the, let's not get into his financial stuff. And that's, that's, that's, weird, weird caveat. Corruption is what leads to fascism. It's what everything, when there's no law. And, and you see now, look, they're all in one car. The second we try to take the keys away, we see that they're all just, they don't give a fuck. They don't give a fuck. They're not battling for like anything in that car.

They just want it to keep open. And like everyone has to understand fascism now because as climate change happens and things start to break down, you're literally going to have a battle between eco-fascism and eco-socialism. Like the, the fascists are already using, they're already using climate change to get done what they want done. Oh yes. No, they, they actually, I would say the more prepared side has been the side that has said forever. We just need to keep saying it's futile. It either doesn't exist or it's futile.

And one of those will always work. Yeah. Good stuff. Good. All right. Well, that's fun. Gobble, gobble everybody. Hope everyone's happy.

Your minds are super simple. Let me read the other source. Jones's own essay, the third way of 1967, an account. Those are the two sources. All right. Your minds are little. Your future's manipulated. There's no need to really bother for independent thought because the people standing next to you are not capable of it.

They'll be taken advantage of and they'll stab you for corn pops. All right, gang. Stop podcasts. Thanks. See you in the library.