The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds - 452 - Abbie Hoffman - Part Two

Episode Date: October 20, 2020

Comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds examine Abbie Hoffman and the trial of the Chicago 7SourcesTour DatesRedbubble Merch

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till two till two today. Do you want that to be the opening? I'm getting ready man. I think people like how your preparation I think it's every show all shows we've done that. You're listening to the dollop on the All Things Comedy Network. This is an American History podcast where each week I hammock and joyer, man who eats sourdough toast, wearer of glasses, Dave Anthony reads a story from American history to his friend. And Gareth Reynolds who has no idea what the topic is going to be about and we should just because you raked me over the coals for this sourdough toast thing it wasn't that it was sourdough

it's that you were eating toast at night like a murderer. That's what struck me as bizarre. So I don't eat whatever kind of toast you want just eat it within the confines of the meals that we have all agreed on. Permission to treat my co-host is an emesis permission. I just don't know stop granting yourself god damn permission. Gareth sourdough toast is for any time of day. It's a delightful delightful treat. It is it's a delightful treat. What you have done is come out against sourdough toast. No you are so viciously. You're trumping me. So vicious. You are trumping me. You are trumping me. Gareth. Don't do this. Stop it. The

anti sourdough toast Reynolds. That's your that's your name. Anti sourdough toast Reynolds. Dave sourdough do this and called it quote his jam pads. Jam pads. I'm the fucking hippo guy. Dave okay. My name's Gary. My name's Gary. Wait is it far fun? And this is not going to come to Tickly podcast. Okay. This is like an a five part coefficient. My room's a place. Now hit him with a puppy. You both present sick arguments. No sleep down hippo. That's like a hippo. Actually part. Hi Gary. No. Is he done my friend? No. No. Ronda. Ronda is the core. March 20th, 1969. That was the day that the Chicago 8 were indicted by a grand jury. Now the uh. Abby Hoffman and

others. Yes. And this is after Abby wore his American flag. And this is this is this is not because of his American flag shirt. This is just for other stuff. So you know we talked about Abby Hoffman in part one and who he is. Anarcho Anarcho communist performer into into the performance to bring people into the revolution. So now they're being put on trial. So. As we said before, there are eight eight people on trial. David Dellinger, a famous pacifist, Rene Davis, Tom Hayden, who are a little more on the militant side at this point, Jerry Rubin, Lee Weiner, John Freunds, Bobby Seal, co founder of Black Panthers and Abby Hoffman. Now they're going on trial trial for conspiracy and crossing state lines

and making speeches with intent to incite, organize, promote and encourage riots during the DNC in Chicago. To prepare for the trial, Abby Hoffman raised money for the defense by doing speaking gigs around the country. So it was sort of a stand up a type thing that he did. Um, that's definitely how I would describe it. It felt very standard. He didn't as you said before, influenced by Lenny Bruce. Yes. And what Lenny did was probably maybe maybe more stand up than he, what Abby did, but still, I think I think it was comedic value. I've heard a lot of young comedians say they don't think, um, that Lenny Bruce was funny. But but that's just dumb because you don't, you can't say that wasn't funny

because you weren't there at the time. Like things become change and then you're like, that's not funny. But also you can never sleep on how important no, it's just fighting for free speech on that level. It's just fucking dumb. So yeah. So he was a big, yeah, he was a big fan of it. So he sort of went out and did that spoken word thing, but he was, of course, talking about what was happening with them and the trial and the defense. And so he's doing the speaking gigs around the country. He's raising money. And now it continued throughout the entire trial. He would fly out on the weekends and do gigs to make money and fly back. So he was, for all intents and purposes, a road cop. Yes, basically. Yeah,

he's like, I got gigs and dead this weekend. And then he becomes more and more known in the country as the trial goes on. He's on TV all the time. His book is selling well. He, he's basically a voice of conscience in the United States. So jury selection begins for the trial. 300 potential jurors are called pretty much all white middle aged and middle class. Rolling Stone said they looked like, quote, the Rolling Meadows bowling league lost on their way to the lanes. So okay. And this, and this is not going to be Abby's demographic. This is not his wheelhouse. No, it's not as, yeah, they're not as people nor, nor like Bobby seal, but they're not like, Oh, there's me a black panther. Right. Right. Right. No.

So to question the jury, the, the defense attorneys had 59 questions for the jury that they, that they then submit to the judge and the judge of prism or not. And the judge only approved one, which was just basically a defense was only allowed to ask one question of prospective jurors. Yes. How do you get rid of a seven tenth split? And it was just basically a basic bullshit question, you know, didn't do anything for them. Okay. So now judge Julius Hoffman was a 74 year old former law partner of then Chicago mayor, Richard Daley. Well, this is fair. This is fair. This is fine. This is good. This is, yeah, this is justice. You know, I mean, Daley's the guy who ordered the cops to beat up the protesters and said

he was going to before they even came and then did. And now this is, and then this is a former partner of his and the age is right to, I mean, that again, as we keep talking about, we need to get, you cannot have, you just cannot have these people judging reality of like evolution or revolution. You can't have a 74 year old try to fathom this. But it's exactly what the Chicago eight wanted by doing by doing exactly what is expected. They make themselves look like idiots, right? Right. Right. So, uh, Judge Hoffman, he was also the judge state, the state always tried to argue mob cases in front of because he always made prosecutors look so good. Right. The judge, uh, judges pretty open about disliking

the Chicago eight and their attorneys. Judge Hoffman seemed quote, determined to do everything in his power to guarantee convictions on every count of the indictment. You just call him Judge Hoffman. That's a miss. No, his name is also Hoffman. He's also Hoffman. Yeah. I mean, how do you not find some related bill? Like if there was another Gareth and I was the judge, I'd be like, come on, let him finish. He seems like a good cat. Well, that'll definitely come up. Oh boy. Okay. So Judge Hoffman always is predetermined that he does not like them. The pre-trial attorney, uh, said the judge was quote pro government on a mission and the defense was the enemy from day one. During the trial, the judge often said quote, I didn't

ask for this case, but tons of people inside the court system said he did indeed ask for the case. But also what, is that, is that regular? I'm just supposed to be, I did, I didn't want to, I don't even want to be here. There's absolutely, there's absolutely nothing regular about this judge. I was, I was, I, look, I'll be honest, I was going to go to the Bahamas for a couple of weeks and I would have much rather been, but I'm here. I didn't want this. This picked me. I don't want to be here. I've been drinking. I don't, I, I, I retired. They pulled me out of retirement. Six fellows came to my house and told me that I had to do, I don't want to be, I'm sick of it.

So Abby, um, for him, this is a big show, right? So he's, he's holding press conferences and always pointing stuff out and talking about what's going on throughout the whole trial. Um, and, uh, the government, city government said that the Yippies had tried to ask for a payoff to go away. And this is from a press conference where a reporter asked Abby about that. A hundred thousand dollar ransom. I don't understand a ransom. You mean to take, to rip off this city for a hundred grand? Yeah.

It's a, it's a groovy thing to do. What are you kidding? What are they going to do with it anyway? Would you have done it? What? Would you have taken a hundred thousand dollars to call everything off? I would have taken a hundred thousand dollars as to call it off. Well. Well, how much does it work to you to call it off?

Call off what? A million? Would you have done it for a million? Revolution? Yeah. What's your price? My life. Good. God. That's, so that's, I mean, that's, that's, we, it would be great to see more auctions go that way.

My life. My life. I'll give you my life. So I want that piano. Yeah. That's amazing. So from that clip, you can tell what is he? He's a performer. He knows, he knows how to use humor as a weapon and he's pretty steadfast in what he wants and, and the establishment, the system can't comprehend what he's saying and doing. They don't understand. That's very clear. Very clear too that the reporter is like, I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question is how much money.

So the attorney, the attorneys for the Chicago eight were William Constler who had represented Martin Luther King, Jr. and Stokely Carmichael. He's a bit of a celebrity reputation at this point and Leonard Wineglass. So the eight wanted to show why their state of mind was morally superior to the governments. Okay. What a great angle. And since Judge Hoffman was a prosecution loving judge and he basically was going to get a conviction that would be easily overturned because he, he's always favoring the prosecution. And in this case, he hates the defendants. So it sort of plays into their hands, right?

They're, they know that they got the perfect judge to put the system on trial. Right. And then it could easily get overturned and appeal. So they knew that. And so Abby knew that. So he was basically show the trial for what it is, which is a political ridiculous trial. So he, I mean, yeah, there, there's certainly an advantage if you are like, well, this one's kind of just like a fuck around. Yeah.

Oh, then you can. I mean, you know, they knew they could go to jail and stuff, but Abby, you know, they were also convinced like this is they're going to, they're going to expose themselves for being the biggest assholes on earth. Right. The prosecuting attorney's told the press to be prepared because the defendants might enter court naked on the first day. That's quite a, like that's quite an imaginary bar.

You said, well, we're expecting, don't be surprised if they come in fucking or jerking. I mean, let's be honest here, someone's going to spit in someone's mouth. It's going to be a whole scene. Believe me, you've never seen anything like it. It's also dumb because you're setting up, you're setting something up, which they might not do. So then when they don't, Yeah, you're,

I mean, it speaks volumes to like the fear inside the white person's head of, you know, I mean, it's just everything is fear. How are the revolutionaries going to get you? Why are they going to take away what you, I mean, Yeah, it's just, it's always based from being scared. Yeah. So guys, they might enter under a Chinese dragon and there'll be eight of them and they'll loop around.

So don't be surprised to see something like that. Don't be surprised that they do, you know, some sort of Cirque du Soleil stuff, body stuff. They look like they're in a big tub of water. They're not. They're just contorting their bodies. They stretch. So Bobby Seale, the co-founder of the Black Panthers, he's one of the guys in trial.

Like, again, he's only, he was only in Chicago for four hours. So the fact that he's there is really crazy. His lawyer had to have gallbladder surgery, but Judge Hoffman would not delay the trial. So he insisted that William Kunstler was Steel, Steel's attorney, even though Kunstler said he was not his attorney. And you are, now you are, you are, now you're close. Whoever is the closest attorney is your attorney. That's him.

You guys are together now. You guys are a couple. And Seale fired him just to be sure. He's like, he's not my attorney and he's fired. Like they were trying to do everything. But you just rehired him now in your head. No, I doubled. I just rehired him.

Double fired. And then you double hired. So he's still your attorney. Triple fire. You can't triple fire my court. Can't triple file. Can't triple fire someone in my court. All time.

So now he's your attorney. No, do not call all time fired because I will throw you out. I will absolutely throw you out. All time fired. You can, that's a warning. That's a warning. He is now your lawyer forever. That's your penance.

This is your lifetime lawyer and your best friend. You two must go ahead and take for a month together. No, you are living together as best friends and you'll have every meal together. Okay. Try to eff with me. Try to eff with the judge. Keep trying. So, so the judge then said one of the four pre-child lawyers could represent SEAL.

So I guess there are four pre-child lawyers doing work, but they were gone. I don't believe in the gallbladder. It's always to me seemed like more of an idea than an actuality. So there, but those lawyers are gone. They were pre-child lawyers. They have been released by the eight and they're no longer in Chicago. So judge Hoffman then holds, This sounds a little unfair.

Judge Hoffman then holds the four pre-child attorneys in contempt for not, For not being in court. So, so they have to come back to Chicago. One came immediately from New York and was right away put in jail. Oh my God. He didn't even have enough time to eat. He came straight from the airport and then was put in jail and they like gave him moldy sandwiches. Another one was arrested in California and brought Chicago in chains even though he agreed to return.

That is crazy. Yeah. This judge Hoffman is drunk with power. So judge Hoffman said he would let. I'm giving them all the chair. That's it. And I want the other one. He's not allowed to have the gallbladder back in legally.

Hold on. Kill all lawyers. Kill. Not the prosecution. Kill all except those two. Kill all lawyers. I'm electrocuting lawyers today. So he then says he would let the four lawyers out of jail.

If Bobby Seale dropped his attorney who had said the gallbladder surgery guy is not his attorney anymore and let one of those guys represent him. But Bobby Seale refused to do that. What a weird. What sort of weird hunger game is he playing like he is. It's just like there is anyone in there like sir. It's just not okay. All right.

How about this final offer final offer. Like what. Well I mean they're obviously Bobby Seale is obviously getting angry and they're caught. They're all calling him out on this. So the gist. The gums should be like OK you guys can go if he hires one of you and fires his attorney was in surgery. No it's extortion. Yes crazy.

And then so the jailing of the lawyers is so fucking over the top that an appellate court panel was very quickly put together and they ordered that the lawyers did not have to obey Judge Hoffman's orders. So they're all out of jail. So they had to like at the beginning of this trial one of the first thing they had to do was to fucking reign in the judge and say you're wrong. Yeah. We formed a council to tell you what you as a judge are capable of doing. You got to date this stenographer.

She's your girlfriend. That's your girlfriend and you've got a couple now. And then Abby is your baby and you're going to raise him as that for a week. OK. Yeah. That's yeah. That makes sense. OK.

And then also you got to get a tattoo of me on your forearm and it says mom under it like I'm your mom. OK. Yeah. I'm not fucking around. No I can tell. No it sounds normal. All right. I'm not messing around anymore.

So what this means is that Bobby seal does not have an attorney to represent him and the judge won't let him represent himself at the same time because the judge says no you have an attorney. So so this all this all plays into Abby's hands. He rails against the clear injustice and the press totally agrees. That's insane. Now prosecutor Richard Schultz mentioned Abby in his opening statement and when he did Abby stood up. And blew a kiss to the jury. Oh wow.

To the bowling league jury son of a bitch. Judge Hoffman quote the jury is directed to disregard the kiss from Mr. Hoffman and the defendant is directed not to do that sort of thing again. All right. It's time for me to let you know that you need to forget that he blew that kiss. That did not happen and he will not do it again. OK. Objection to you. But I object.

But in actuality everybody laughed. They laughed when Abby did it. They laughed at the judges. You know just response. Yeah. I mean if you're going to get put on a jury aim for this one. So courtroom is always packed with Chicago 8 supporters and they're not shy about letting their feelings known. They wait.

They wait like half the night to get a seat. You know they line up like 2 a.m. Now although Judge Hoffman would vote in Judge Hoffman would save seats for his socialite friends who wanted to watch. I have three coming today. They want to balcony. But it's mostly you know Chicago 8 supporters. So there's a shitload of oinking that happens during the trial. Which is actually picked up on some of the stenographers stuff.

They really went off when Judge Hoffman refused to admit a cake into the court for Bobby Seale's birthday. No there will be no no you're not allowed to kick what kind of cake is it. What sort of cake. It's vanilla. Absolutely not. No absolutely not. Red velvet potentially. Carrot possibly.

It's actually vanilla. It's actually white vanilla frosting and on the inside chocolate. That's that you may eat the outside. And then the inside you may not eat. So. Yeah how about this. The women can eat the inside and the men can eat the outside. No wait.

No sorry. I want to get it right from a legal aspect this matters. Are there jimmies. No jimmies. Are there jimmies. No jimmies. I just barely even sounds like a cake. So Abby and most of the others decided they would use the the trial to put the Vietnam War and the government on trial.

Hayden was more against that. He wanted the trial to be over with and to get back to the revolution. Abby believed the trial was the revolution. He believed that you could point out how insane the government was how bad its actions were. And this would start a movement like this trial could start something. Yeah. Because all eyes are going to be on him in the country. So like they're never going to get a better chance to promote who they are and what they believe in.

Right. So this blatant political prosecution would cause people to rise up in his eyes. And so the trial had great meaning. Now they they have all different styles and beliefs. There's the Yipi pranksters, Abby and Rubin, the self-described hard men like Wiener who wanted a full revolution. Dellinger who was a quiet pacifist who had not gone into World War II because he was a pacifist. And Hayden was a guy who was all about following the rules and working at night and prepping witnesses and writing legal. He really wants to win the case.

Although he is military. Right. So the defendants and a counselor did not follow normal courtroom behavior. They figured the trial is unjust and then they're not going to show it any respect. I mean this is exactly why you want to be on the jury. Yes. So for the entire trial they sat at the defense table in jeans and sweatshirts often putting feet up on chairs or up on the table. Hayden was once yelled at by the judge for laying on a chair and a table like he was on the floor.

I mean he but Judge Hoffman must have been losing his goddamn mind. Oh yeah. I mean just I mean if you think about the repetition of that over and over again like how like the size and pauses before he would like actually call something out eventually. Like when someone's laying on a table like Miss Miss I'll let you continue one second. But unfortunately for the 15th goddamn time I have to remind the defendants that there is no laying on the goddamn table. I'll take it out of here like you make him like the man substitute teacher. Yeah. That's it.

No more sitting. There's no more table. There's no more wood in the courtroom. How's that? They're like that Jack. Hoffman and Reuben wore headbands, buttons, beads and colorful shirts. They all ate jelly beans throughout the trial. They cracked jokes.

They made wise cracks. They made faces. They would sit there just reading the newspaper and sometimes they even slept. Excuse me. Excuse me. Yeah. Are you eating jelly beans while reading the goddamn newspaper in a court of law? I am.

And the news story says you suck. Shut up. Stop talking to me like that. I am the judge. Stop. You all need to understand how this is supposed to work. You're not supposed to be laying down eating. I'm not going to do it again.

I'm not going to take the bait because I keep doing it and I keep coming home and I keep being negative to my family and that's not right. It's just that when I watch men with open shirts and buttons eating goddamn jelly beans while they nap, I get a little upset. I'm a bit of a purist. So the area on the table was littered with clothing, candy wrappers all the time. Pick up your goddamn wrappers. And one day they had a bag of pot on the table under. All right. You guys are now smoke.

Listen to me clearly. You're not smoking pot in the court. He was holding him contempt all the time. Judge Hoffman scolded them for their posture and held Abby in contempt for laughing. After another defendant called Renny Davis, Renny Baby, the judge told the jury to disregard, quote, crowd the baby out of your minds. We are not dealing with babies here. Just be a jury. I mean, if you're in the jury, you must have just been almost, you had to probably bite a hole through the inside of your lip to not laugh. Yeah.

Please strike from your minds that he called in baby and also a reminder that they should not be eating jelly beans in here. Okay. Thank you so much. Do you guys want jelly beans? No, you want a jelly bean? No. Do not offer them jelly beans, please. There'll be no jelly beans in the goddamn drink to sit down. Okay.

I'm getting a little sick and tired of all the shenanigans. Why are you all only wearing one shoe? God damn it. I don't want to even know. So at one point, Abby declared he did not have a last name any longer. He said Hoffman said Hoffman had died with truth in the courtroom. Oh my God. Now, Judge Hoffman and Abby have this, while the whole struggle is going on with the system and the counterculture, they have this undercurrent Jewish sort of thing going back and forth due to their last name, right? And Abby would take digs all the time. Another time, Abby said, quote, you are a disgrace to Jews. You would have served Hitler better.

So he's basically getting into this old school shit of like, you know, who the rich Jews who weren't that harmed and helped out with, you know, shit that went on. Like he's he's thrown him under the bus as far as the Holocaust and like being like you were one of the guys that that maybe took the wrong side and stuff. So there's just like so many different angles to fuck with him on. Yes. And he's doing it. Yeah. The judge absolutely lost it one day when Abby said he was Judge Hoffman's illegitimate son. Because the confidence you've gained throughout this process, like it just is the inmates are running this. It's like when this it's only when a class would get out of control.

Yeah. I knew I'm not my God. Stop chewing jelly beans. So in mid October, things got even more contentious. The Chicago eight decided to make the trial even more political and more about the Vietnam War. And October 15 was Vietnam Memorial Torium Day, in which Americans all over the country observed, you know, those who had been lost. Right. So David Dellinger stood and read a list of killed soldiers, both American and Vietcong.

That probably was did not go over great. I couldn't. No, you don't. Not the Vietnam. No, this whole thing is wrong. Abby draped a Vietcong flag and an American flag over the defense table. I mean, Dave, I honestly, I can't imagine having the not if you don't have the freedom, but just to do it in a courtroom to just treat it like a clubhouse. Yeah.

No, it's amazing. I mean, it really feels like they're seniors who have already been accepted to college and he's the principal. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what his options are like he could lock them up, I guess, but they the government wants them to do this and they want to do this. So it's two sides. One side is mocking the other for what it is. Right. It's a whole there's all things.

So it's amazing. Judge Hoffman ordered the flags be removed. And then so there's marshals there. There's not bailiffs. The whole courtroom has marshals all around it like a lot. Okay. And Abby one comes over and grabs the Vietcong flag and Abby and the marshals came into a tug of war over the Vietcong flag. And then they finally get away and they walk away with the Vietcong flag and then they realize that they've left the American flag.

And Abby afterwards made sure to point that out to the press like, oh, they're fine with disrespecting the American flag. As far as far as all the names being read of the dead, very few were actually read because the judge had it stopped very quickly. Right. Now in the movie Chicago seven, if I just told you what happened, that's actually very interesting scene. But in the Chicago seven, it's very patriotic and everyone on all sides basically cheers and thinks it's great that the dead are being the names of the dead are being read. There's no flags. Jesus Christ. Now, I mean, I've not watched it.

Obviously, because I want to say for this, but it's, I mean, it's really is amazing to watch people be like, this was so great. Like we're just like, oh, fuck. I mean, it's so it's so easy to manipulate people through entertainment. And yeah, I mean, like you're saying, the message is just so watered down our laws on purpose. So now. Yeah. Design. Like Bobby seal did not have legal representation in court.

And just do pick a bad time to get that gallbladder. When he when he tried to question witnesses, judge wouldn't allow him to because he said, well, you're represented by by counselor. And then he and but at the same time still be like, well, you know, I'm not and I want my attorney and he'd say you have your attorney. So it just goes in this big fucking circle. But there's a lot of anger building like it's building and the anger is building and building and building. Right. And on October 29 seal finally is done. And he calls Judge Hoffman quote, a rotten racist pig racist liar.

I love that double racist. Like on your list of five to a racist really just hammers the point home. Quote, let the record show the tone of Mr. Seals voice was one of shrieking and pounding on the table and shouting. And then counselor jumped up and said prosecutors Schultz just shouted. But the judge said, quote, if what he said was the truth, I can't blame him for raising his voice. Wow. I mean, this is like you can't be a ref when you're dating the quarterback. That's just amazing.

I mean, it's so biased. So after this happens, the judge has seal forcefully removed from the courtroom. So about 10 marshals come over and they drag him out and they take him back and they beat him. And then they bind him to a chair and gag him. What the fuck? What is happening? Well, this is a good way to show you're not racist is by treating a guy like a slave you caught. Like what?

I'm not racist. Now take the black man out of here time in a chair and put a gag in his mouth. Now it's just us whites. Hayden said, quote, his eyes and they bring him back that way. Right. So Hayden said, quote, they bring him they bring him back into the courtroom tied up and gag. Yes. He's now he's now back just sitting there.

I mean Hayden says, quote, his eyes. And the veins in his neck and temples were bulging with the strain of maintaining his breath. So seal is kept that way bound and gag for the next three days in court. What? What the fuck? How? I mean, I mean, obviously we are a brutally racist system and have been for a long time. But how, how do you make it past day one of that behavior?

I mean, you know, how are you allowed to repeat? Yeah. So at one point, a defense attorney counselor accused the judge Hoffman of being a racist and the judge replied, quote, I lived a long time and you are the first person who has ever suggested that I have discriminated against a black man. Yeah. He's lived a long time. He's sitting bound again.

Why? Because he wanted a lawyer. Name one time I was racist. Name it. Someone pointed out a specific time when I did anything that was racially biased. Exactly. But again, besides from, besides from Tuesday till today, before Tuesday, name a time. But again, like I said with the, the Kaepernick protest, you show them, you expose them for

what they are by. Yeah. They, you know what, you just do some actions and they will always expose themselves for what they are. So. Right. The day after Seale was gagged, the next day, Abby and four others did not stand when the judge entered the court.

Only Hayden and Freunds did. The judge then said, quote, let the record show that the defendants did not stand and he meant all of them. So Hayden is this guy who wants to play by the rules. Right. And now it's fairly fucking obvious that it doesn't matter if you play by the rules. Right. Right.

Right. What? No reward. Right. The next day, Abby and Ruben showed up to court wearing black judges robes. This is, this honestly is the only time where I've been like, I want to be on trial. It's just, it's like you have a sketch group. It's like putting a sketch group on trial.

I mean, it's, you know, in England, they wear wigs and to me, that's always funny, but the robes is also funny. Like you're like, what is it? It's really just fake. It's a costume you're wearing. It's all just sort of pageantry and bullshit. It's totally pretend. Yeah.

And so they're exposing it for that. And judge Hoffman comes in and orders them to remove the robes. Sorry. Which judge Hoffman? Cause I'm confused now. We have two. So judge Hoffman comes in and orders them to remove the robes and they did. And underneath they have on Chicago police uniforms.

Oh my God, Dave, it is written. This is scripted. Take off your robes and show some respect. You're right. We probably should. All right. Now, what do you want us to do? How should we defend the courtroom so we're cops now?

Take off those goddamn cop uniforms. All right. Well, we're doctors. God damn it. You're in scrubs. Take off the goddamn scrubs. Now we're in tuxedos. Motherfuck.

So they really went for it on this day. Abby and Ruben. Right. Strong start. Ruben calls judge Hoffman Hitler. Abby said judge Hoffman would jail them for contempt because it was clearly going to be a hung jury and that's the only way they could put them in jail. And they kept at it through the whole day, comparing him to a Nazi calling him Hitler.

And finally, at one point, judge Hoffman just stops talking and it's just quiet and it's quiet. It's great. It's quiet for a long, long time. So he's just doing. And then Abby says, and I'm probably going to fuck this up because it's Hebrew, Shonda Ferdigoyle, which is a Jew who dishonors Jews, whose bad actions confirms the worst fears about Jews in general.

So that's the undercurrent of shit going on. Like he's just fucking. So there's some, there's some drama Hebrew. So now clearly not enjoying being in bondage, the seal tries to get his left arm loose and marshals come over and try to grab him and the chair starts falling. And Abby and Ruben move in to try to pull seal away from the marshals. During all this seals gag slips and he yells, quote, don't hit me in the balls, motherfucker. And Ruben also yelled, quote, don't hit him in the balls and reporters said a marshal had

actually hit seal and so a guy punched seal in the balls while this is going on. One of the Marshall Jesus Christ, how about a little guy code within all this respect the baby makers seal then called judge Hoffman a, quote, fascist dog. So finally on November 5th, judge Hoffman severed seals case from the others. And then immediately sent sentenced him to four years in jail for contempt. Wow. I mean, it's just, it's like his, I'm trying to figure out this judge's line. Like, I mean, it's very difficult.

So the Chicago eight are now the Chicago seven. Okay. The prosecution has starts introducing a bunch of undercutter undercover cops as witnesses who clearly just lie a lot. If you can believe that when they testify, shocker, right. When questioning one undercover female cop about what Abby said in the park, prosecutor Schultz said, did he blank? Schultz was using blank instead of a swear word.

And he actually says the word blank. He doesn't want to swear in the courtroom, but couldn't you be a little more specific? Is the gentleman over there, the one who blanked, did he blank, ma'am, did he blank? Was he blanking? Did he blank? Was he blanking with another blank? There are a couple of blanks who have, I don't know what you're talking about. Were at any point, were they blanking together?

Or did you see an independent blank? Yeah. Yeah. Answer the question. I must remind you, you were under oath. Yes. They did blank. Yeah.

Did they blank? And then after the blank, was there more blank or did they seem to blank a little bit longer and in any sort of blank of the sense of the blank? Yeah. Yeah, there was. They did. They didn't know that she is nodding and saying yes to the idea that they were blanking when they blanked, which is actually contradictory to something that Mr. Hoffman said about blanking

in the blank. So I think it seems like somebody's blanking on the blank of the blank, which is not why we're here today. We're blanking simply in a court of law, and we're all here to respect blanks, but the blank is not yet blanked enough. If we don't blank, we blank our blank to re-blank it. I blank. Any more blanks?

No? I don't. Can we take a five-minute blank? Back to blank. Here's how the actual question went. Schultz. Did he say blank? Cop?

No. Did he use a four-letter word? Cop? Yes. Schultz. Did it begin with F? Cop? Yes.

Cop? Are you a nerd? Well, when Constler got up there to cross examiner, he was like, do they ever say the F word in the precinct? Like they're fucking cops, of course they are. Now, Officer Angel Ears, I don't mean to attack you with questions. So swear words are on trial. They're using them to show how bad these people are.

Schultz kept saying the seven used the F word a lot, so they would come up and just keep pushing that in. Oh, they were F and an S, and it peed me off. And they're constantly tying Abbey, who's very associated with the F word, but Schultz himself seems really uncomfortable using it, so he's not able to say it well, and he even used F word instead of fuck in his opening statement. So they're trying to prove that the bad guys say fuck and the good people don't, even though, and we all know everybody says fuck.

So it's another one of those things where it's like- And the cool people say it. Yeah, the cool people say it. Have you ever heard someone say fudge? May as well shove them out a window. So another undercover cop said Abbey, Wiener, and Foynes had plotted to throw lit flares at cops, and the witness ID'd Abbey in the courtroom, quote, Mr. Hoffman is sitting with the leather vest on, the shirt, he just shot me with his finger, his hair is very well

unkept. What? What? He just shot me with his finger, and he's licking his lips, and then he put his fingers in his mouth on his tongue, and then he smoothed out his eyebrows, that's the man. So this sort of thing was said because their existence is on trial, like it's about the clothes, it's about the language, it's literally a trial about a community in America. Being hippies, being a yippie, it's on trial.

So Hoffman does what he can to undermine what's happening. He's defying, and he's naming names, and he's attributing acts of violence, words of violence to various defendants. It was all being taken down by the media that was present, Abbey turned to me, and he said, does this witness hurting us? And I said, yeah, I think this testimony could hurt us. And he said, well, I'll make it disappear. He said, you know, have you drawn me yet?

And I said, well, yes, he said, well, I don't think you've drawn me enough. So I said, well, at that point, he stood on the table, on his head, on the table, and the courtroom was filling up with people. And he said, did you get it? And I said, yes. He said, are you sure? And I said, I promise you. And that night, we're watching television.

And what was broadcast on the television was his headstand. And Abbey kind of nudged me in the ribs and said, you see, Frappalade disappeared. He was very serious about portraying events for TV, for the medium, for the press, in a way that got his point across and obliterated the other side's point. Yeah. But, I mean, the idea that you would be on your head in a courtroom, just knowing that that is going to, that that's what we'll get, that, I mean, that's the salacious shift, you know?

I mean, that's the interesting stuff. He basically, for the American public, which, because to him, the verdict in the court doesn't matter. He realizes his trial in the press. And so he dominates that news so that what that witness said is gone because he stood on his head. He understands the meaning. So around this time, prosecutor Schultz bumps into Abbey and Ruben in the park on a weekend.

And they talk, and he says that when he was in college, he might have been with him. But that didn't mean he didn't want to destroy them now. And in the courtroom, he was, according to journalist John Schultz, quote, meanness and rage who spoke in a voice of perpetual rage. Okay. Now, Aaron Sorkin paints Schultz as a very nice, sympathetic prosecutor. Right, of course. Right.

Because he represents, yeah, represents the system. That's right. When the prosecution had called all their witnesses, it was the defense's turn, and Tom Hayden wanted to not mount a defense and just end the trial. Okay. Abbey thought the trial was the revolution at this point. And they were going out and doing speaking gates to make money. And on colleges, they're now like the Beatles.

So to him, he's seeing this growing momentum. So they all vote, and Tom Hayden does not win. And they're going to, they're going to present a defense. Right. The first defense witness was a guy who worked at a candy factory, and he had taken pictures of the cops, brutalizing protesters while they were laying down. Right. Okay.

So he, he goes up and testifies to that. And the next day he's fired from his job. Wow. God damn. And then after that, the seven are not about to put on any sort of normal defense, right? Because they can go out and do this, but this is clear intimidation, and they don't want to hurt people's lives for helping them. Well, plus, I mean, that was their jellybean guy.

That's right. So they make it about music and sex. For the trial, they brought in all the big names in the counterculture movement as witnesses, Timothy Leary, Alan Ginsberg, Phil Oaks, Norman Mailer, Arlo Guthrie, Pete Seeger, and Judy Collins. Some of them would sing. Judy Collins started singing where, while the flowers gone on the stand. So, okay.

So they opened a talk show in a trial? Yeah. All right. Our next guest, I mean, sorry, witness, you're going to love this guy. He's unbelievable. A big, big, big counterculture figure. So you have a, you have a, you have a situation where the, the government is bringing in all these, you know, cops, staunch, very straight, very sort of normal people.

And then the, the seven are putting on a fun fucking show. Yeah. They're having a premiere. So, uh, so when Judy, when Judy Collins started singing where, while the flowers gone, the judge stops her and, and he keeps having to tell witnesses to stop singing. Please, there'd be no more singing in the courtroom. Please stop. When Ginsburg, uh, gets up there, they question him about his sexual poetry and there's, there's

a lot, you know, it's just fucking pretty filthy and there's, there's gay stuff and whatever. At one point, Judge Hoffman said, quote, I've never presided at a trial where there was so much physical affection demonstrated in the courtroom. And at that point, all of the spectators yelled, quote, right on. Yeah. No, it's not a compliment, it is not, no, no, God damn it. I mean, he must be losing his mind.

I, you know, I, I wish I could really fully understand what was going on there. He, he definitely, he thinks he's winning cause he's got them on contempt. He does. Cause he's got them on contempt charges, right? So he, he's like, yeah, keep it up, mister. You'll get yours. Right. I think that's what's going on.

He knows how to handle someone who, who shows absolutely no respect for the courtroom. It doesn't deserve respect cause it's a political trial. It deserves no respect. They're treating it appropriately. Totally. And there's no, that's the best judge for this time because that means he allows everything. Yes. Cause he's like, go ahead, die your own noose, fools.

That's right. At one point, the judge admonished counselor for slouching on a lectern, telling him it was designed by Myse Vandereau. Abby saw an opening and said, quote, Myse de Vandereau was a kraut, just everything, everything, everything's an angle. And then Abby said the courtroom was like a neon oven. So he's just fucking, it's just Nazi Germany dig after dig. And there's just weird thing where he's not, Abby's getting away with more than the other

people. And a lot of people think it was cause there was sort of a strange Jewish, you know, sort of battle happening underneath. So black comedian, Dick Gregory came to testify. And when he got on the stand, Judge Hoffman decided to explain how he wasn't racist. Quote. What a, what a, not a tell quote, I would want, I would want this very nice witness to know that I am not racist, that he has made me laugh often and heartily.

Oh my God. Nice to meet you, Mr. Gregory. I just want to let you know, I do not hate your race. Welcome to the courtroom. Thank you. They call me Judge Woke is what they, that's right. I've not done anything racist here this last two days, actually, it seems like so. I mean, Dick Gregory has already fucking read about what he did to Bobby Seale.

Like it's just, it's like Dick Gregory wants this dude's fucking opinion. I mean, like you feel like awesome, great. Honestly, me making you laugh is a knock on my comedy. After a local reporter testified for the defense as he walked off the witness stand, Ruben stood up and shook his hand as he passed by and then Abby handed him a $10 bill. There you go. Thanks so much. Thanks for going.

And the entire courtroom laughed. It's just, I mean, seriously, it is just a bit machine. Yeah, because comedy, not on trial. I mean, just think of all the things you can do if you just don't believe court means anything. Dude, you're like Neo in the Matrix. You're just like the game slowed down every night. You're like, I know, no, of course I'm nervous, but what's the gag tomorrow? So the judge held Dellinger in contempt when he said bullshit after prosecutors claimed

he wasn't really a pacifist and was, quote, the rioting's chief architect. And after he said that's bullshit, Judge Hoffman revoked his bail. So the other guys are getting out every night and not Dellinger has to go back to jail every night. So they're all fucking pissed and particularly because what did he say that was that bad? He's being called Hitler and all this other stuff. And then Dellinger says bullshit. And now he's having his bail revoked.

What turns out Dellinger had gone to Marquette University a few days before and given a speech in which he attacked the judge repeatedly. Okay, in my head, I'm like, if this were to happen today, they would all be going to jail every night. Yeah, probably. They would all be held in contempt for, like, is the, I mean, obviously part of the reason is that the judge thinks he's playing chess when they're playing checkers, which is not true.

But is it also just that this is before, you know, I mean, I mean, the law is now on steroids. So it can get away. It feels like it can get away with everything. I mean, is that really the difference? I think that's part of it. But I also think they are trying to expose them. But yeah, I don't, I don't think you would get away with nearly any of this stuff. And I think you wouldn't get away with it because of a lot of what they did.

You know, I think that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's a first, but yeah, it's just like in my head, I'm like, I mean, you think of, you know, the judges now, I mean, they, they're just like, they, they, they, I mean, they answer to nobody. I mean, you know, really like, yeah. So, uh, so after Dellinger's has his bell vote, Abby and Ruben want the seven to disrupt the trial and force the judge to put them all in jail. So they're like, let's go balls to the wall and just fucking.

That is like a movie plot. He thought we got to get into jail. He thought it would really anger people if they all got put in jail and then those people would organize and come down to yell and scream and get Dellinger out. But all the other Chicago seven opposed it. It was only Abby and Ruben who wanted to do this. They thought it would turn America against him. So it was two different rights.

But Abby and Ruben go for it, uh, you know, that, that day they're just more Hitler shit more. It's just relentless. But again, they don't get put in jail like Dillinger did. So only two defendants take the stand. Abby and Renny Davis, Abby goes first on December 31st, 1969. He extended so it must have been so exciting as a juror like, he's the headliner. What's hilarious is that, that day at the trial, uh, Freund's and his girlfriend sold

posters of them naked out on the lobby, the lobby, I mean, merch, it is a concert. So as Abby's being sworn in, he extends his middle finger, so he puts his hand on the Bible with one hand and flips off. When he was asked his name, he said, quote, by name is Abby, I'm an orphan of America. He said his residence was Woodstock nation, which was a place as well as a state of mind to two jurors refused to look at him while he testified. They wouldn't even look at him. When he was asked if he liked the word fuck, he said he liked what it meant to him.

And then there was a lot of questions about the word fuck and, and about actually wanting people to fuck in public places, like at the Yippin, because again, it's a behavior trial, right? It's not a criminal trial. Schultz used the massacre at Grand Central Station, which we talked about previously when the Yippies went to Grand Central and all got beaten up. And he used that and used Abby's book, Revolution for the Hell of It, to scare the jury. He said Abby wanted to liberate America the way he liberated Grand Central Station, which

means violence, right? Crazy. So, so Schultz made it seem like the Grand Central Massacre was Yippies going crazy instead of the cops. And he questioned Abby about the Yip out in Central Park and quote, smoking dope, sexual intercourse on the grass. When he asked if, if Abby had tried to create the situation in Chicago where troops had to be posted all over the city, Abby replied, quote, you can do that with a yo-yo in this

country. Look at this courtroom. There are troops. And then he pointed at all the marshals all around the room. Schultz asked what he, what Abby meant when he said we were chiefly responsible for the defeat of Hubert Humphrey and Abby responded, quote, we would win as in jujitsu where you let the opponent destroy himself. Let the body destroy himself like in this trial.

Wow. Abby was on the witness stand for two weeks. Wow. The swearing was such a concern that attorney Leonard Wineglass brought it up in his closing argument saying, quote, men of strong convictions use strong language. Hey, they said they wanted to swear me in. What the fuck am I supposed to say? But now by the time of the closing statements, Schultz is dropping F bombs everywhere.

And he's just saying fuck in the closing statement. Like he's come around and he's no longer saying F word. Now he's just saying fuck straight out. Ladies and gentlemen of the fucking jury, let's have something to fuck that. All right, we've seen a lot of bullshit. We fucked around a bunch. People got fucking pissed. People have been fucking funny.

We've had a fucking hell of a time. But the truth is the behavior is fucked. And that's what's on trial, the fucking behavior of these fucks. Now I know I'm not going to tell you which way to decide. But if you don't think that they're fucking assholes and that this is a fucking problem, you might be the ones who are fucked. Justice is fucked. Lady Liberty herself is getting fucked by Abby Hoffman on a piece of grass in the park

while he's fucking smoking grass. My work here is fucking done. Do what the fuck is fucking right. Thank you. Fuck you. So the jury starts deliberating, right? And as the jury is sent out to deliberate, Judge Hoffman begins sentencing the seven and their attorneys for contempt of court.

OK, so he's like, well, why don't we have a minute? There are 159 counts of criminal contempt against this. I mean, it's like going into a bar where you have a tab and you're like, yeah, throw it on the tab. When there was sentenced, they got to make statements. Davis and Rubin said, quote, this court is bullshit. Dellinger said the judge was condemning condemning himself, not them. And Abby, now everybody knew the judge was moving to Florida after this.

He was like retiring. Abby told the judge he should do LSD, quote, I know a good dealer in Florida. I could fix you up. He spoke a lot. And he ended with, quote, I'll see you in Florida, Julie, because his name is Julie. It's just so it's just endless. This is so good. It's endless.

It's like. Counselor, the attorney got four years in jail for contempt. Wow. Abby got eight months and a 5,000. So they all get tons of time for contempt of court, which is what Abby said, right? She said, you're going to get as contempt because it's going to be a hung jury. The jury came back and acquitted them all on the conspiracy charge. Freunds and Wiener were then acquitted for the other charge while Abby and four others

were found guilty for intent to incite a riot while crossing state lines, which, which yeah. So they got five years and refined $5,000 each. When Abby was told of the fine, he said to Judge Hoffman, quote, could you make that 350? Amazing. It's amazing to have a, it's amazing for 350 to be the counter. It's like, it's like insulting, but real. It's kind of perfect.

Two weeks later, an appeals court ordered them all released. The convictions were overturned in 1972 by an appeals court. Nobody served a day in jail. Oh, and the FBI with Judge Hoffman's and the prosecutor's support bugged the offices of the seven's defense attorneys. Oh my God. An FBI agent often met with the judge and gave reports to Hoover at the FBI. Wow.

One before, uh, uh, one report before the trial said that the judge would hold them in contempt. Jack Hoffman, quote, on several occasions during the trial, Judge Hoffman quashed defense motions immediately after the FBI had expressed its wish that they be quashed. After the trial, Abby, he lost his optimism. He became militant, but he wasn't really the violent type. The FBI categorized him as priority number one, and the agency started following him at all times, believing, quote, his philosophy and activities portray him as an individual who would constitute a threat to the national defense of the country in a time of national

emergency. Uh, so he toured, he gives speeches on the Merb Griffin show. He stood up and took off his jacket, revealing an American flag shirt. For viewers at home, the screen went immediately black. Oh God, Jesus Christ. It's amazing. It's, it really is a double standard too, even at that time. Yeah, because we've already know a country singer wore an American flag shirt uncle Sam.

In Denver at a gig, he blew his nose into a small American flag. Oh my God. Abby got tons and tons of death threats and he got offers for things like laugh, noise makers. So like his laugh and a noise maker and Abby dolls to write books, Random House wanted him to run a counterculture department at their publishing house. Wow. And quote, the William Morris agency promised that they could put him into the top tax bracket.

What a great, I mean they get counterculture, the agency always really understood how that works. Hey Abby, we understand that you're revolting against the man and all that. What do you see? Come over here and make a bunch of money, become a man. Madame Ozil magazine named him one of the sexiest men in America. So it's the same thing that you see with Black Lives Matter, right? I mean, so no actual progress as far as what these companies are doing, but trying to market

it and trying to say their for it and trying to do all the stuff that'll make them more money, right? It's actually what happened to Tim Leary essentially is like he eventually was like, well, I don't really know what to do. So he kind of just folded into the, instead of the counterculture, the culture. So Abby turned it all down. He could have made a lot of money. He turned it all down.

He did get $25,000 from book royalties from his previous books, which he used to bail out a Black Panther who was in jail. He would actually, he would lose that money because the Black Panther would skip bail. So the New York Post tried to undermine him by claiming he was cashing in. So they just wrote a fake article saying he was making tons of money when he wasn't. Just to undermine him. If you can imagine the New York Post doing something like that. Not today.

In the movement, Abby's reputation was up in the air. Some thought he was a distracting clown. Others a revolutionary who could make it fun and human and draw people in. Jack Hoffman thought Abby was exhausted and he was hardly seeing Anita. Abby started taking uppers and downers. He signed a contract with Random House to write. That's always, that's always like where you're like, that's like, all right, you're taking downers.

All right, you're taking. When someone's like, I'm down. I need uppers. Two up. I need, it's like, well, there's a solution in here of not taking them. I mean, look, he's running himself ragged. He, like how, how much do you think having the FBI tell you 24 seven just grinds you down?

Death threats. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I mean, so much pressure too, you know, but it is always like a sign of like, God, it's not good. Right. So he signed a contract with Random House to write a counterculture guide, a way to fight

the government corporations. The final product would teach readers how to live for free. And it was called steal this book. But Random House would not publish it unless he changed the title, but Abby refused to change the title. Such a good title. And then 30 more publishers rejected it. Contrary to what Aaron Sorkin wrote in Chicago seven, Abby was completely against the system.

He was an anarcho communist and believed hierarchies, money and social classes should not exist. And that the means of production should be held in common by society. His goal is a decentralized, collective anarchist nation rooted in the borderless hippie counterculture and its communal ethos, Abby, quote, we shall not defeat America by organizing a political party. We shall do it by building a new nation, a nation as rugged as the marijuana leaf. And this is always going to be unacceptable to the U.S. government. And having not defeated in the courtroom, the government doubled down.

The FBI set out to destroy Abby and the hippies. An FBI memo was distributed on December 4th, 1970, quote, Cointelpro recommend the New York office be authorized to anonymously mail a leaflet to selected new leftist activists designed to broaden the gap between Abbott Howard Hoffman and Jerry Clyde Rubin to fragmentize the organization and hopefully lead to its complete destruction. And that is the end of part two. And let me tell you something, part three gets even fucking crazy. Some people did say that Sorkin treated Abby Hoffman well in this film, Chicago 7, but what

there are quotes in there where Abby, he just came saying Abby loves the country and wants it to be better. Now he wanted to destroy the entire system and you can't take an anarcho-communist and turn him into like a sort of a capitalist loving hero. It's just fucking mind boggling to watch. And it's done in such an insidious sort of way that people are like, no, he treated Abby Hoffman pretty well and he did if you take it on face value. But if you undermine someone's ideology, are you treating them well?

Or are you lying about them? This is a really gross bastardization of what happened and I think like there's a lot of great examples and one of them is that point where they read out the names of the dead. Number one, they were reading out the names of the dead of the Vietnamese and the Viet Kong and he doesn't have that in the movie. He just has them go up and read out the names of the American dead and then everyone cheers and loves it and the judge lets it go on because they're reading the name. It is just crazy.

It is so mind boggling that you can take such a powerful moment of resistance and protest and turn it into a kumbaya moment and that's what people would take away from this movie is that that really happened and none of that stuff happened. And where's all the little moments where Abby gives the witness a $10 bill? Where are the little moments of that? It's none of it's in the movie. So what is so upsetting to hear that version though is that it is an acknowledgement that the writer in some way doesn't condemn the Vietnam War which is such a layup and so blatantly

obvious that that was just terrible. And he gets away with it because he's skilled at that kind of propaganda and when he lies and people watch it they go, oh that was interesting and that because they seem counterculture enough. Right. Exactly. But their counterculture was a destruction of the system that exists and that's not in the movie.

And then there's a lot of people that don't understand the difference between liberals and leftists. So liberals think almost every problem can be solved through market capitalism. And leftists believe issues are best solved through democratically run socialist programs. Any sort of capitalist based social program will always be seeking a profit for the people who run things and they'll exploit workers, whether in America or not in America, whereas the belief is a government run by the people will not do that. So it's really, it's a pretty fundamental difference between the two things.

But Americans have never talked about leftist and liberals. They've always talked about everything center and over as a liberal. And it's why a lot of liberals can't wrap their head around why leftists don't want to support Biden. Well it's because York, it's a completely different ideology. I mean, that's the basic difference between, and you know, there's a lot of writing you can find on it. It's funny though, I think it's one of those things that where if you try to Google it,

it just gets into, it gets into bickering nonsense as opposed to just, Aaron Sorkin.com. Why do I keep getting redirected? We should bring up climate change, planet change 10 is good as we want to talk about that. So here's what happened. Got fucked over on the website, got fucked over on the website again. People have been saying they'll help out.

They don't. It's just been, it needs to be a community effort. And right now I have absolutely no faith that it's anything. So people want to take it over. I'm happy to just let people run with it on Facebook, but I'm just so fucking disillusioned. It's been a fucking bummer. So that's where it is. I can't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to build something and just have it be not

taken seriously or whatever. So I mean, there are people that always try to help out and some people really want to help and then it just never, never is worth it. I think for us too, when we were going on tour, we were able to actually talk to people about this stuff. Like your initial idea of treating this like a way for people in small communities to get together and treat it sort of like Alanon or AA, where you're connecting over the stresses of this.

And what we were starting to do is have meetings before shows where we would talk to people and try to organize through that. And then now we can't do shows. And so it's just, yes, it's been very hard. So yeah, someone had asked me that recently, so I thought we should speak to it. Okay, well, this was a long chat. This was a good chat. It was good to catch up with you.

Nice to talk to you. It's good to talk to you. It's always good to talk to you. You're always very positive. You're an eternal optimist. You are calm in your frustration and put your finger down, put your middle finger down. That's not how we're going to do this. You are constantly on the stop, put your goddamn finger.

Don't turn me into the judge, Hoffman, put your goddamn fingers down. So more jelly beans.