The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds - 554 - The Wild John of Wynoochee

Episode Date: October 11, 2022

Comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds examine woodsman John Tornow Sources Tour Dates Redbubble Merch

When you're staying at an Airbnb you might be like me wondering could my place be an Airbnb and if it could what could it earn? You could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. That in-law sweet guest house where your parents stay only part-time Airbnb it and make some money the rest of the year whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca slash host. One, two, three, four. You're listening to the dollop on the All Things Comedy Network. This is an American history

podcast where each week I user of earbud headphones, reader of books, man with ten fingers, Dave Anthony reads a story from American history to a guy who wears a hat. Gareth Reynolds who has no idea what the topic is going to be about. People know me a little bit better now. Yeah, no they can identify you with your ten fingers. You can finally just go oh that's the guy I heard about. He's the guy who's got ten fingers. People know me a little bit better. It's a big day Gareth. You know why? Because the LA City Council member that I hate the most got caught doing racisms on the old recording machine. Oh, who? Calling

another council member's three-year-old son a bitch. Adopted son. Adopted African-American son. And she also called him a little monkey. Oh my god. And she's our city council president, Neri Martinez. So I'm not gonna miss her when she's back to whatever job she does. Oh that's right. She's a landlord. Oh I know who you're talking about. So right. You know hopefully goodbye to her. She'll stick it out though. She'll just go. Yeah they don't. I didn't mean. They don't leave it in disgrace. No they never leave it in disgrace. They go. No they don't. They used to. Look I'm gonna hang in here. I didn't mean it. So I'm fine. You just got to wait it out.

Everything just you have to wait it out. It could be months but you gotta wait it out. That's how you solve it. You waited it out. You're terrible. I did. Yeah when I had to. Well let's not. I was gonna have fun with the bit but then you took it to the highest stakes. So no I'm not gonna pretend anymore. Hope you're happy. I'm going to deny your initiation. You're listening to the dollop. Now we did that you idiot. We all know you have ten fingers. Some people don't know that. Some people have nine figures. Some people have seven. I'm not. Yes this is not. This is not to disparage those with any lesser appendages. But I think if you were to

say man with nine fingers that's interesting. That's different. When you say you have ten fingers. Yeah no we assumed you have ten fingers. It's not even worth talking about. It's stupid. I think that's what I was getting at with that entire explanation was don't assume. You know what I mean. I just don't but I don't. I don't assume you have ten fingers. I'm tired. I'm tired. Huh. I don't assume you have ten fingers. I don't assume you have ten toes. I'm not that kind of guy. I don't walk in a room and be like all these people have ten fingers and ten toes. That's just rude. It's one of those things you can see really quickly.

You can tell if someone has ten fingers. Okay so now you're checking out people's fingers. It's again not in any negative way. It's not great. None of this has been good for you. It's been a bad bad opening cold open for you. Cold. Stop talking fully and just read the story. Do you understand me? Just get into the story part of this. Before we do we have a tour asshole. We the dollop will be well the one thing we should say is that people ask us when is our new podcast coming. It's soon. We basically have a date. November sometime. Yeah November our new podcast called past times podcast past times will be out.

Great guests. It's funny. We're enjoying it. But if you want to see this old piece of shit you can go to dolloppodcast.com for ticket information. Wednesday October 19th will be in Columbus. October 20th Pittsburgh. October 21st Cleveland. October 27th Grand Rapids. October 28th Royal Oak Michigan. November 3rd Nashville. November 4th Louisville. November 5th St. Louis. November 6th Indianapolis and then Kansas City on November 8th dolloppodcast.com for all those tickets. Yum. Do you want to talk about anything? No let's just start. Show off these ten fingers. Let's go. I want to talk about your relationship with your

parents and how that's made you who you are. No. 1882. Year of our Lord Jesus Christo. Or as I call him down at the church the magic man. Fritz and Louisa Torno. Fritz and Louisa Torno? Torno. Torno okay. Move to Washington State and they bought a 320 acre farm on Setsup River. Setsup River. It's over it's over it's close to the coast. Okay. Like a little bit south of Seattle. Southwest of Seattle. Sure. They'd been in America now at this point for 15 years in various different states. Farming usually they had six alive kids and six not alive kids. Oh that's cool. Which is the standard. Yeah that's a

standard ratio. At this point you're like we're doing good. We're hitting 500 which is what you want to stay 500. Imagine if you brought eggs home from the grocery store and half of them were broken. Now imagine that imagine that with your kids. Right so that's what it was like having kids in the 1800s. Yep. You didn't get to check the eggs before you got them home. You just open up and go I'll have to make it. Ah that's right. The second from last child born was John he was born on September 4th 1880. Okay. John helped his dad a lot with whatever he was doing. Very helpful kid when he was 10. He caught what was called the

black measles. Now because it's it looks like the measles but the little little pot postules are like the caddy. I was gonna call him scabby guys. Scabby guys. Cool. The scabby guys were. It's like hanging out with WebMD. Yep. No. I have a scabby guys. Online medical degrees. They are an online doctor. Yeah there's a lot of those. Yeah they're very prevalent these days. Yeah no everybody's got it. And very wrong a lot of wrong. Well look I mean these these hand portals to information have been fairly damaging. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So pretty bad. I've seen it called two things. Is there a pretty good version? Is

there a version? I ain't too bad. Just pick them off. Yeah I got the black the black measles. And it's fine. It's called Rocky Mountain spotted fever now is the actual name. Wow. Which is more fancy. His course light comes out of it. You get it from ticks. It's a tick-borne situation. Okay. So if you have a pet tick you know check them for Rocky Mountain spotted fever. It can be very deadly. Causes a really bad fever a headache and then the black looking rash. So he had a really severe case of it. Almost didn't survive. Afterwards the doctor told his parents that the fever had been so high that he would never be the same again mentally

or physically. Wow. Anyway here's your kid. Yeah anyway. So you were you were batten 500. Now you're like 450. Like he got 500 with an asterisk. 475. So so he did he had a lisp afterwards. Like that was the main thing right away that very noticeable. Other kids made fun of him. Mocked him. Gave him terrible. That is a crazy side effect. Yeah. What happened? Me though. It's got to be a muscle thing I would imagine. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. So he gets mocked and you know made fun of. Then he gets an inferiority complex out of that. Okay. When people now when people come to stay at the farm because like lumberjacks would come

because you know it's like a it's like a house out in the middle of nowhere. So like lumberjacks would come through and they'd let him stay there for the night sure they're going to their lumbering area. Yeah. Lumbertown. I think it's called Lumbertown. Lumbersville. Yeah. So if they're heading to Lumbersville they stop off at there and so John would always leave the house whenever any stranger came to stay to avoid being around them and he would usually go stay in the woodshed or he started just going out on the woods and staying for a couple days out the woods. It feels like the lumberjack should be doing what

he's doing but he's just like when the lumberjacks come to town he goes to the woods to live. Yeah. Okay. And he really he really enjoyed the woods so he starts staying out on the woods. So he would be getting along great with the lumberjacks. Yeah you would think that they would yeah but he doesn't like his lisp and he he's so mortified by the damage that he won't even hang out with the lumberjacks. There's a lot of different descriptions of what he's like. I think he's just very quiet and and awkward a little bit around people he doesn't know. That's how it sounds to me. Okay. Okay. So so he he starts spending time out on the woods

even when there aren't people at the house he just go he'll go out for a couple of days. Sure. You know. Very self-sufficient in the woods. His father his father taught him how to hunt and fish and all the survival skills. Self sufficient. Right. He's got a track and hideous tracks all that stuff so by the time he's 12 he can hunt and gathers on food and survive in the woods. A great skill probably learned too early because then where is he yeah he's just out there just like I forged. Well back then 10 is like R 18. He's 12 so what's that R 19. Yeah so now he's like in his mid 20s. Yeah so he's just got like a suit

made of moss just that's right knowing which berries to eat cooking up root shrooms. 1800 childhood years are like dog years like it's the same sort of thing. Right. Right. So when he was 13 he decided he wants to help. That's why your books called when men were dogs. When men were dogs. Yeah. Right. Okay. So what did you say. When he was 13 he decided to help the family out and so he went and got a job in the Wishka area. It was about 20 miles away is where he worked so he would walk there not every day but he would walk and stay for a few days and then come back. Normal 13 year old. Yeah. So he's gone a lot. Yeah he's

gone a lot. He's really gone a lot. So he he worked on what was called the splash dam for Psy Blackwell. Temporary wooden dam. You knew that. Yeah. Yeah. Just for the listeners. Psy has this new invention that he brought up from California called Dole beer donkey which is a donkey based logging operation. Yep. Right. Exactly. Yep. I didn't have to tell you that. You know. No. No. No. But I think it's good for people to know what that is. Sure. The donkey logs. Donkey log. The beer donkey. So the beer donkey. Yeah. Dole beer donkey. Yep. So his years go on. The other boys in the turnout family would move away also. John John

would always come home and he could help out especially he came every year for planting and harvesting. He always came with fish and meat like he didn't show empty handed. He was a very nice boy. Here's some halibut that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's and it is nice and it's 1800s nice but it is strange to just be like I've got tons of meats and fish as you come in. Just lob them down on the table. You know it just will you walk your boy comes home. He's got an elk. Right. Yeah. I mean it's just like like he's it's just like you think he's prepping Korean barbecue. That's right. So as he grew to an adult he actually did not have

physical limitations like the doctor said he was. He grew up to be six three and about 220 pounds. So he's a big deal. Okay. He should take the shit out of that doctor. That's right. That time he's a giant. Yeah. So his mother adored him like I think after the so the thing about John is there's a lot of lies about what he was. So it's hard. It was hard to decipher who was a legitimate source but I found they found one. So there's some sources that say the mother doted on him adored him after the illness which could be true. I mean it would kind of make sense. Right. Yeah. So and that led to jealousy with the other kids

but either way there was problems with some of the other kids. Well look are those other kids bringing like cured meats and fishes every time they come to say hi. I mean what if you what if you're what if you're a boy in the family and you can't hunt and John rolls in with five Elks on his back. Like how is this. Yeah. This dude's rolling in with a bunch of elk meat. You know and trouts. One of the kids who was a problem was Edward. He was the youngest. He still lived at home. I think he was one of the last ones if not the last one. He was the total opposite of John. Author Bill Lindstrom quote he was lazy. He wouldn't do any

work. They always had to boot him out to do his chores. It was a bad situation. Okay. So yeah. So he's not. That's we got a problem. He is the opposite. Right. So his father John's father Fritz died in 1909 and he gave the whole estate for about 400 acres to John. Smart but probably created some sort of division. Yeah. It did. The brothers were not happy. Right. Ed and the oldest brother Fred discussed it and Fred Fred. We're Fredward. And they decided that they should get John declared insane and put him in asylum so they can get the property. It's just normal stuff that you do when you family squabble. Yeah. Look

he got all the land. Let's just prison him forever. So if he got it put into the insane asylum then the land would have hurt back to the whole family. Right. So but around this time John had he was completely done with the house. He just lived in the woods now. He's just a woodsman. Okay. So he had the house but he would rather live in the woods. Yeah. He owns the property now but he's already like a couple years ago he decided I just enjoy the woods more than I do. House housing. Wow. Okay. So now John's sister Minnie marries this other guy in the town. Minnie got married. Minnie got married. To Mickey. No. Sorry.

Mackie. Shut up. I am not not serious. Oh I thought you were. They have a lawsuit on their head. She married a guy named Henry Bauer. They had two twin boys. They had two daughters. The twins and John really got along. Like they got and they were born when John was about 12. He was super close to him. Taught took him out. Took him out in the woods. Taught him how to you know hunt fish. Everything he knew how to do he taught the twins. Right. He taught him how to catch fish with a vine maple which we all know now because it's yeah it's easy to remember this is before yeah this is before people knew how to do

with a vine maple. That's right. And everything about life in the woods. So John he's not just an uncle. He's friends with them. He's like they're super close. Their dad Henry is not happy about this. He's not. He doesn't know anything about the woods. He's just a farmer and it he's jealous or angry or whatever. Right. So sounds like a good dad. Yeah totally. So he doesn't like John at all. And he also not big fan of Fritz. His wife like she would spend a lot of time at her parents house. Sometimes you know days at a time and that you know upset him also their house was which one is Fritz again. Fritz is the dead the

dead dad. Oh okay. That's what I thought. Okay. Yeah. But he's not jealous of that anymore. No he's dead. So that's that's dead. So he's like look yeah right. Okay. But so she she was just spending a lot of time there. He hated it. And something he was really jealous of how well off they were Fritz and the family. So why not just I mean if I if I'm that guy I'm like I'm enjoying the spoils. I know pick up totally. Yeah absolutely get the spoils. I don't like how much stuff we have because of them. Let's just have our stuff and it sucks more. So his the parent and his mom's old now and she falls and breaks her hip as all people

do it's like sure I think it's a thing you're supposed to do. It's a right of passage. So she's not doing well. She can't get upstairs anymore. Ed's the only one living with her and he's like I need help. He's like he adds like I need help. I don't want to take someone needs to take us upstairs. So he he pushes his niece Henry's daughter to come and stay help out our grandma right. Sure. So she does. Henry's not happy about this either. Does anything make Henry happy? No nothing makes him happy. So they move it now. She the grandmother's up can't the grandmother can't get upstairs. So she sleeps downstairs in the living room in

the and and Ed and Mary sleep upstairs. Sure. And his niece. So that goes on for a little while. Sometimes a John would come and visit. Always doting on his twin nephews you know and then Ed and Mary. No. What they go she says she needs to go to a doctor. She has a she has some kind of blood disease but she's like I have to go to doc the doctor for the blood disease. Okay. And they get there and she's like I'm not here for the blood disease. I'm actually pregnant with a baby. I got a baby of me. It was Ed. Yeah. Yeah. I had a feeling. It's a bad boy. Yeah. I don't say he's a bad boy that like yeah that's like like strike anywhere match to the

smoke a cigarette or fucking his niece. He's a totally. Yeah. He's like yeah he's an incest pedophile. Yeah. Yeah. He's a huge. How old is she. No. She's she's not. She's not. She's not. She's like early 20s. Okay. Yeah. It's just it's just good old. It's just disgusting. Yeah. It's just disgusting. So so Ed doesn't want her to get an abortion. He's like this is our sweet sweet niece. Uncle baby. Let's see what this thing looks like. It's our uncle baby. I bet you it's not going to be bragging about having 10 fingers. So he's like look just go up to Seattle and we'll put you in a boarding house and have the baby and then come back. You go to Seattle.

You can have our incest baby. It's fine. That's what Seattle's for. That's what Seattle is founded upon. Grunge coffee incest baby. She just doesn't want to do that and she goes ahead with the abortion. Okay. And keep in mind that would not happen in today's America if you were in the wrong state. That would be considered a murder. That's right. That's right. Just to be fair. We'd get to see it. So afterwards she goes to a family friend's house to recover. I assume they don't want the the grandmother to see her you know recovering or whatever. She dies two days later. Oh shit. Jesus. Well that just that drives that. Maybe

that's something we should be doing in America now. Maybe we should. Anyway the doctor. What do you mean? You know we should make abortion safe. Oh yeah. Yeah. We tried that and it worked really well. So enough. So the doctors arrested because abortions are illegal. Jesus. They have a trial. During the trial the prosecution basically shows that Edward was pretty much the only one who could have been the father. Okay. The trial also reveals. I don't know. I there's like 450 pages of transcripts which I didn't want to go through but I trust the Oliver's your dedication to this project. Sorry. I'm bad. I'm terrible. Yeah. Bill

lunchroom. He said I believe him. He's an old school reporter. So I'm gonna go with him. So they also trial also reveals and I don't know why but it reveals there is a giant rift between the Tornows and the Bowers. Okay. Henry. Right. Yeah. Henry and John's. Yeah. The Tornows. Right. Especially with the whole now with the old daughter dying thing that kind of heightened it a little bit. Right. Because you would say that Ed was sort of responsible. Yeah. Having sex with his niece. That's right. Right. That's right. That's right. So the doctor would eventually be convicted and sent to prison for nine months. His attorney was

I mean by the way is that term just to be kind of funny. Sorry. I'd never put that together. Were they just like you go spend it pregnancy inside there. And imagine what it was like if someone didn't let you out. Now the the defense attorney's name was E. W. Bonner. It's probably Bonner. It's spelled Bonner. So let's just go with Bonner. Now sometime. This is my attorney. Oh Bonner. No. I'm taking the trial seriously. What are you talking about. This is just my this is a boner. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. My name is E. Bonner sometime during the trial because it goes on for a while this stuff. Louisa dies also. Which

one's she a mom. That's grandma. Mom's out. Oh. Hip. Hip. Grandma. OK. John's mom. Right. Add his mom too. Yeah. It's mom too. So after the trial August 1911 John goes back to work in Elma and then he comes back a little while later. So he's been gone for a while. He's been living on the woods and also working. He had recently started leaving his dog Cougar at the house. He's a lab. Old lab. He's 14 years old. So he's an old guy. He went Cougar. Yeah. So he went everywhere with John. He was the out in the woods with him all the time. This is his only like buddy. Right. Hoping that everything stays fine with Cougar because

otherwise OK. Yeah. Because when he gets home he finds out that Ed had shot and killed Cougar. God damn it. Why did you do that to me. What made me feel like the dog wasn't going to get shot. Well I mean you've heard of the dollop right. This is who falls for that at this point. I mean I don't know. There's some time that there's there's times where I'll guess and you don't go no no no. So you know like you're like stop. Stop. And that was one of the vibes you just gave me. It's like now come on come on come on. Let's keep it. Keep your head in the game. So he said he said it was because the dog was too old to hunt which he

was. That's why he was leaving with the house because he was the house dog kill it. So John is livid and he grabs his rifle and he shoots Ed's dog Rex. Jesus. Let's not do it like that anymore. If that's the dogs are not in charge of this relationship. That's not. No. So he then I'm going to go find a bunch of other dogs to shoot. Shoot more dogs than you gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen. I'm going to the I'm going to the pound. Yeah. Yeah. So he he tells Rex I'm going into the woods. He tells Ed Rex is dead. Rex is dead. He tells it. I say Rex. Yeah. Yeah. So he could have said to both Ed and Rex because Rex I'm sure is at his feet.

So he says looks at any says I'm going to live in the woods. Don't anybody come after me or I will kill them. This is the preview. This is in the movie preview where you're you're starting to kill like I might see this one. I might go check this out. So he lays out if you come into the woods I'll kill you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. So so after that Ed is like oh well this is interesting. Now we can have him declared insane. OK. So he goes to the sheriff and he's like he killed my dog. He says he's going to live in the woods and he swears out you can swear out a warrant to declare someone insane if you're a family member at this time. And

just to be clear you're the one who had sex with your niece and shot his dog first. Right. That's right. That's right. In. OK. We're worried about the mental stability of your brother. No. No. I was very when I did that I was super like saying like I was like I was in my right mind when I get an ancestral relationship with your niece and wanted to keep the baby. That's right. The product of the OK. And we're worried about John because he's living in the woods. Yep. John is a problem. OK. All right. I agree. We need to get. Also he hasn't had any kids and I could use another niece. You know that's not

a great. What. Launching off point for the mission. I'm just saying he's wackadoodle. You know. Yeah. Yeah. He's cuckoo bananas. I got my I got everything in shape over here. Tip top. Yeah. You seem fine. Yeah. I'll rename the farm. Kind of I kind of feel like if I ask you what it's going to be another marble on the scale to not go declare your brother crazy. But what are you. Neestown. All right. So look let's not. I'm going to help you get him. But what you can't do is keep talking about those sort of details. Let's focus on the mission. John's the one who we're worried about his mental health. I'm taking

a lot of selfies out there. Well I mean sure I'm ready. Ready for DMS. All right. Let's. A lot of these terms are foreign to me. But you'll know. All right. Let's just go get him. Let's just go get him because I am worried about his mental health brother who had impregnated your niece and wanted to keep it and has just informed me that you name the farm. Neestown. Can you take a slow down story form. I don't know what the benefit would be to the mission we have. And if you could if you could start out with dear penthouse. You mean like the top of a hotel. You're writing a letter to a fella named penthouse.

A buddy. You're telling a buddy. Josh penthouse or something. Yeah. You could do that. Why don't we focus on the fact that we will collect your brother to put him in to a institution where they is out of his mind. He shoots dogs. Yes. Which I do. You shot his dog. When it's past its time. Right. Right. Okay. Let's go get your brother. No longer a work dog. You know what I mean. Not. Not a working dog anymore. Shut up. Just shut up Ed. Shut up. Much like my dad when he got old. Okay. All right. Look. Look. Look. Look. I look. Okay. Let's get your brother. Okay. Look. I'm going to go. I got it. Let me take a walk. I'm going to

take a walk. Let me take a walk. I'm going to take a walk. Okay. Let me know if you see any nieces out there that you need to be directly related for them to be nieces. I'm branching out. I'm branching out. Don't. Don't. It's not good when a family tree branches out in this way. Have it a walk. Okay. And Dave adjusting his camera. Adjusting the camera because I realized that it was a little bit too sexy. Sexy. So. So yeah. So he wants John declared insane. He goes to the sheriff does the warrant and then the sheriff goes out into the woods to look for John. He was warned. He he finds him and they talk for a couple hours and then he comes back

and he tells Ed it's fine. There's no basis. He's got a good thing going on. Yeah. There's no basis for him being declared insane. Quote. He made a man cave. Quote. He said he didn't care much to be at home. Never did. He wanted to be in the woods and left alone to enjoy its solitude and beauty where the word where the words he used. I couldn't argue with that. I said goodbye and I left. Okay. He's fine. Sure. So there's been rumors for a while that in the town because of how John acts he's different. Right. Right. He's quiet. He's a little shy. So there's been rumors for a while that he was one time put into an insane asylum which the sheriff noted in

his report but the sheriff said it was not true. So he's never been put into an insane asylum. Most stories to read about John people will say he was in an insane asylum. That's not that's not true. Okay. So he keeps living in the woods. He built he builds lean twos. That's his. Oh yeah. Normal sort of situation. He sets he sets traps all over the place between the one Uchi and Satsop rivers. Can you set one for nieces? You got like a nice snare. I wouldn't know how to bait that. I got to be honest. I don't know. You just got put me in it. Okay. Well I'm gonna take off. Thank you. He stayed. He's there for months. He sometimes would

go down to visit his sister's house. See the twins. He always brought meat and traded it for flour, salt or whatever. Sure. You could just I mean again your family so you could probably just you know be like can I get into studies just like here's a bunch of elk. They're like we have we have still have some of the elk from last time. How much sugar are you using? Add some venison and I'll just take this flour and sugar. I'm gonna make a wood cake. So at one point Henry he's seen a bear around by he's worried they're killing they're gonna kill the cattle on his farm so or a bear so he asked the twins to go track it because

they're just John can't Henry's not good at that they're John little John's so on September 3rd 1911 the twins go out and they don't come back and Henry goes out looking for him and he can't find him that night so the next day he goes town they put together a posse and they go out looking for the twins I think they're 19 I think they're 19 at this point they find one of the twins bodies Jesus it's about two miles from the farm so a couple posse members ride back and they they tell Henry Bauer they found a body he's been shot oh through the heart interesting what's going on I thought this was gonna be I thought this was

bear so the posse goes and looks for the other twin and they find the bear which has been shot and it's paralyzed so they put it out of its misery and then they find the other boy also shot through the heart one shot in the shoulder one shot in the heart so the sheriff now tries to piece together what happened there's the boys bodies then there's a ridge where the bear is and then back behind the ridge is a lean to it's about a hundred yards from where the twins have been shot John liked to hide his stuff in cedar trees so he would build lean to is around cedar trees and right behind this one is a

cedar tree and there's two bullets in it the dig them out it's the same kind of gun that John has it's also the same kind of guns the twin twins have because he gave the twins their guns and he would often give them ammunition the bullets oh I already said that he gave him he gave him to them for their 16th birthday so the next day so they they whatever they they go back to town they're gonna bring people out they bring out the corner they bring out a local reporter and the sheriff I think the sheriff's sheriff stayed out there to piece it together but they get out there and the sheriff's like okay so

John turn out killed these boys mm-hmm there's no evidence well the evidence being that if that it's close to where John stays yes it's bullets from the same gun he uses yes but they use that the twins use to but what would the theory be with the twins shooting each other that someone took their guns I don't know I don't know what the theory is it doesn't make any sense yeah unless a twin shot a twin and then just taught a bear how to shoot now that's possible it's likely the sheriff's sheriff said quote all evidence though not conclusive points to turn out being the suspect he is the man we want to talk to

okay so you want to talk to him that's fine sure some also thought it could be Henry hmm there was some suspicion that the twins weren't his a man had been visiting the Fritz's house and Minnie was there and they went into the forest at one point alone blah blah blah whatever rumors okay so people like did he do it cuz he couldn't handle it anymore maybe he was done with all that stuff there had just been a murder two weeks before in another town where a guy killed his two sons so people are so people like he found out you could do that it's called a copy key copy dog yeah yeah so the sheriff puts together a posse to hunt

down John now week later a couple lumberjacks come how do you how do you do a posse it's kind of like American Idol you go into town you go I need some fellers and then fellers are around what once the fellow god life's life's a void of nothingness for me I'll come I was staring at a post I was just looking I was counting dirt I made a duck fly and then sat there for five days I was just sitting here fixate nine what's it's all about like what happens after you pass away does your mind just shut off or does it go somewhere else because your skin and your body and your organs is just a suit that you wear but your soul

is actually something that takes possession of it so then when you go you sort of drift somewhere else and go back to being another ingredient in the galactic soup of the universe complaining that just thinking about it you know they say after you pass that your brain still functions for about another 20 minutes or so it's called the bardo you kind of in a little limbo where maybe he's processing your whole life or something like that hey Tim maybe that right before hey Tim we're gonna have you stay home this time come on I thought we was do posse no not this time turns out we're not gonna do posse me and some

of the fellas just gonna take a walk right now alone just remember if a fine any dead bodies they don't fret too much because again it's just sort of like a little like wearing a jacket and when you pass away you just kind of toss it off and put it on the floor but you still got some form of consciousness deep down inside you maybe just not the way we think of it some of these Western religions you know we're all there connected the space between us is just nothing but invented we're all one by even though we seem like we're separated by a bunch of things walking down that we're down the hill all right

take care let me know if you need anything okay bye so posse gets put together lumberjack stumble across two lumberjack stumble across John in the woods and they tell him that his nephews are dead in the sheriff is looking for him he is like I did not kill them I love them I respected them I would never do that and he says tell everyone the bear the bear knows how to shoot he's got the right to bear arms oh then they tell he says tell everyone that everyone should leave me alone oh so he's he's like look I live in wood law now yeah this is what I'm in wood I'm living in a wood I live right

don't come in a wood world yeah the sheriff and deputies keep searching for him sometimes they'd find hidden food or a smoldering campfire and they never found John months go by and they're searching for these people would say they've seen him here or there a report came that he'd been seen on Mount Olympus so it's kind of like a forest Elvis is so he they hear Mount Olympus is like a big mountain-ish range area where they lived the the sheriff has deputies go to one side he goes the other and they they climb it's thousands of it's 7000 feet oh and they get up 7000 feet and they have to turn back so

they're really looking for him so the four trappers claim John burned down there they're a shack on the Wishcoe River Hunter said a man will come up in the middle of night demanding salt and pepper it's called a mistake you know that's like a great that's like a great one to be like oh my god what do you want garnishes I'll just condiments do you have parsley loggers keep saying they've seen him people are now saying they see them in saloons so everyone's seeing him everywhere it's one of those you know every one's cool to say son yeah whenever someone's looking there's a

whole wanted person people see that person everywhere so yeah winter comes the sheriff calls off the search he's we had a way till weather improves it's a really really bad winter so a lot of people are like there's no way he's alive right he was actually living most of the winter under the floor of a schoolhouse hmm where he could come and go because he could take a board in an out another place he stayed was in a giant dead cedar tree named the big tree on the satsop is about 10 feet in diameter and partly hollow oh that's perfect it's like a kebler elf yeah totally that's amazing though like a 10

foot I mean that's pretty good I mean again you know 10 foot's not great but it you would be like look I got my space I can lay down yeah it's not bad I got everything you need in here so he knew they'd be looking for him again come the spring and he prepared he would hunt meat and prepare it dry it out or whatever so would last he made a camouflage lean to that was really well hidden okay now Colin McKenzie had been a photographer in Aberdeen for the paper in 1903 when the big Aberdeen fire hit which we all know about yep wiped out most of the downtown city during during the fire McKenzie broke his back when a wall fell

on him oh wow which is why don't stand their walls when there's a fire yeah he had a very long recovery and as he was waiting to get back to work as a photographer he he became a bounty hunter I don't know how that works sorry he was too injured to take pictures uh-huh but he was healthy enough to be a bounty hunter that's great okay seems like photography would be your recovery activity I mean look it was different on your way to bounty hunting yeah it was a different time but we weren't a different species well but it's maybe bounty hunting was the software job maybe photographer I knew bounty hunting

from this chair you there maybe maybe it was forced photography sure still what were you hold people down and take their picture oh yeah so McKenzie and a game warden were sent out by the sheriff to look for John the sheriff told them they had an idea where he was at this point and the sheriff told him if you find him do not try to catch him just come back let us know his location because he's desperate and he's a really really good shot yeah and they also said he is quote considered demented right and they were like yeah sure we'll be back we'll be back for supper they did not come back for supper so sheriff's worried and

so he sends a posse to look for them and the posse finds an elk carcass that he had taken all the meat off of and tracks leading away from it right and then they follow the tracks they find John's abandoned camp near the Winocha River and at the move like Saddam Hussein yeah I think he had my understanding is he had lean twos all over the place yes that's what I mean he had like you just don't know what location he's gonna be it's totally saying yeah right he just needed a couple doubles well man it'd be amazing if he had those so they find at the camp they find empty shell casings the same as the ones it's the same gun

they kill the twins same same gun they also find smoked meat and flowers and some clothing sure then they came across the bodies of Mackenzie and the game ward both shot in their hearts so papers reported they had no chance and had been assassinated that was just all the all the all the papers were like he lay in wait and assassinated them like just you know ran with that right the bodies were buried in a shallow grave in the shape of a tee nobody knows why that happened I don't is shallow grave just a way of saying lazy I mean not a lot of time right I would imagine the ground is cold and hard okay right so shallow but

either like underleaves and stuff I just imagined it was a time thing cuz digging a grave sure it's always a time thing yeah I mean when I do it it's six hours what's happening huh you're talking into a microphone again when I do when I dig graves I do it as a hobby I don't actually put people in them but I like to you know just dig graves in the backyard or she's a lucky lady the bodies were stripped there it's right there clothes or ammo their food it's all gone he took home who I or whoever yeah who it's a mystery the Tacoma Times headline quote brave men hunters found man beast somewhere well put somewhere

between the inland waters in the sea the beast man awaits his chance to strike yet strike strike yet another blow at the world which always called him queer woodsman what's insane he's a beast man the beast man they I mean they're Marvel comicking him yeah woodsman are a superstitious folk the trappers swear that a hound follows at the beast man's heels so relax is this John he might have a dog he's quiet that's yeah the world called him queer and he became doom doom beast man the article said he had buried the man more decently than would be expected of a maniac right okay so he was so this is you know so the

press is just going with the angle of just sensationalized guy living in the woods like just you know to crank it up to ten he has bare hands the Graves Harbor News published a photo that they claim was John so it's a very hairy guy he's in ragged clothes he's holding like it looks like a post of some kind but it's a fake quote county commissioners posted a fort four thousand reward for the capture of John Turner now before this they had refused to do that saying there was no proof he killed the twins but now that the guys had gone out after him and they're like okay well they're also getting a lot of pressure from

people should be fair it you would think these killings were connected right if it's the same gun and that sort of stuff well the heart the shot through the heart a shot through the heart yeah right so that's actually the only the most damning thing to me is the shot through the heart right also the song what a damn song so so the governor puts up a thousand this is a $5,000 reward that's a lot of money back then so people just start going out looking for him no one's finding anything but it's constant searching the posse actually builds a cabin out in the woods so they have a base to come back to so they're

not going back to town some young some young men in a car see John on the road a couple hundred yards away near his old home and he stands still just long enough for them to get a really good look and then when he sees him he bolts into the woods and they're like he looks really bad his hair is a mess he's got a big long beard he's super skinny he's beast man the sighting just gets people more excited yeah frothing and now people are seeing him everywhere it's in stories across the country I saw him in my toast people are very excited I found a potato chip that looked just like him he gets nicknamed the wild man and the

cougar man cougar man people would see him in towns nearby Port Angeles Olympia Alma one person said they saw him in a jail in Chihales which they're like no no we wouldn't that's he was high down the yard and I'll tell you he made a prison out in the forest for himself if I ever seen one that was that one the guards never saw the lean to like that's like you've over yes and it I'm pretty sure I saw him in a cafe I say them in a jail all right all right easy easy Trent easy anytime anybody went missing anywhere around the area people are like it's John it's John's eating his brain he's killed him papers tried to say he

killed two prospectors who had vanished in 1910 which is two years before the twins were killed that's right it's a time traveling beast man other papers made the case that he was innocent the Aberdeen Daily World wrote that the owner of the Potter repair shop said a well-dressed stranger came into town and said he had seen John several times on Heron Street John he told John though just recently okay and he told them John had not killed Mackenzie and the game-worn because he was 20 miles away at that time right and he said the guy was also you know nice and nicely dressed and well-shaven and the shop

owner told the sheriff to investigate so there's the that's like being written up as a story like some guy came into a store right that some guy came into a store at he was nicely shaven too we should freshly shorned man so John actually in reality has gone deeper into the woods he would just now come out once in a while sometimes for food and people would give it to him because people that lived nearby and knew him were very sympathetic they did not think John killed anybody they're like that's not who John is these the sweetest guy in the world so they would leave supplies out for him like they

would just put supplies out and then John a month later would come down and get him and they just find beef and fish or whatever it's like a fucked up Santa Claus yeah yeah yeah honestly it really is that's a man leaving the meats fish some woman who was a girl at the time said she was in their house she was in her house their dad and they heard noise and and she's like I heard a noise he was where to come from she goes right up there she goes that's just John it's okay don't worry about that you're gonna be some special meats he's just leaving walleye so again anything that

happens playing on on John author Bill Lindstrom quote houses were burned horses were decapitated and cows were mutilated anytime anything happened anywhere it was John turn out okay so we have some other issues in this area now that I'm hearing the whole horses being decapitated things sure yeah legit problem that we should be yeah that's not great well let's keep focus on John sometimes horses head so many people including some of the posse did not think that John killed the twins because of how much he loved him anyone who knew John was like he did not kill the twins except I think his sister oh wow who was

married to Henry who was like no he did it so the sheriff heard a rumor John was gonna cross the Olympic Mountains and he sent men to one side and he climbed up the other and they start to cross the glacier at 6,000 feet that by the way that is a very crazy rumor to say you heard it's also the craziest thing though let's get up on the glacier and find the runaway I mean if you're John you're like great yeah good yeah yeah I'm gonna do it I'm doing that go up to this 6,000 foot elevation no no yeah I'm hiding out at the top of the mountain that's where I catch my fish yep that's me I'm actually in the middle of the

ocean you should get out there have a look around so at 6,000 feet the sheriff slips and starts sliding down the glacier and he's like I'm dead I'm a goner and then he hits a very large boulder which breaks his fall man when you're like thankful for a boulder hit things are bad yeah things are bad so he said he slid about 1,500 feet oh my lord so he hit it hard he couldn't stand or crawl so the guys came down and they made like a carrying seat to get him off the glacier onto like the path and then he had to limp 80 miles back it's not worth it just let John go think about people who are like I'm training for

the marathon and you're like well that's incredible and walking 80 miles after feeding a boulder from 15 no we hear that and people are like I can't put on a mask okay so quote I was a bloody mess and my leg was really banged up and a sprained knee and at this point he's convinced that John's over on the Olympic Mountains so John pushed me he came up right behind me he's a glacier monster but the sheriff is actually not being truthful author Bill Lindstrom quote the sheriff ignored a lot of evidence one note in the sheriff's files stated John turnout couldn't have been couldn't have killed those boys he

was 27 miles away another file discusses two men who wanted vengeance against John but no leads were followed up and when asked if he could be innocent the sheriff said quote we have spent a lot of money and more than 10 months in the woods searching for this man don't you think we would stop what we were doing if we felt he might not be guilty no I think everything you just said leading up to that is the evidence for you not doing that always there's totally there's so many stories where it's just like your pot committed so you're like look we're gonna ride or die on this one mm-hmm yeah you just like if you've got

it you you don't want to yeah you're not after the truth you're after your you know yeah now your pride yeah your pride symbol so the sheriff wants to go back out in the spring but he's getting irritated because the county is not coughing up more money to go look for John because think about all the stuff I've said they've done how much fucking money that is caught yeah yeah and he can't find they're saying you can't find the guy it's just costing money and you don't know we actually killed anybody so whatever they have a good point so the sheriff the sheriff gets frustrated decides he's not gonna run for sheriff

anymore he's like I'm out that's it I'm done I'm taking my gun and I'm going home I'm over sheriff yeah so you could say that there's a divide between us or as I call it a sheriff could you this is very serious discussion can you not do those sort of like wordplay things I'm just saying there's a sheriff between us no I got it I'm just saying this is actually I would just like some of you to cop to what you're doing okay that's it the meeting's over oh police no god damn it I'm having a good time as I leave one of his deputies now runs for sheriff it's a deputy that's been in the hunt the whole time and he runs on one platform I will

bring the head of John to town I am going to rid the woods of John Turner now okay and I will do it within a month of being elected wow that is bold and he wins in a landslide and now you got to get to the moon the previous sheriff had been very open about what he was doing with like the main beat reporter constantly giving him stories telling him what he what's going on it's the same reporter that had covered the abortion trial and been with them when they went through the twins bodies so he's been all around this stuff but now he's getting iced out by the new sheriff he's not getting any information he's super

frustrated and the reason is the new sheriff keeps being told while he was out there looking that people are missing their newspapers so he thinks John can read and it's just keeping up with all the stories and learning what the sheriffs are up to and what they're doing okay staying ahead of the ball sure which would be amazing so his John's brothers and sisters have contested the will because he's been gone for so long and and and after 15 months the judge this has been 15 months now the judge rules it should be split amongst all the kids because John's not there so everyone gets a sixth John's part is

they sell the property John's part is sold and they put the money in the bank for under his name I kind of I mean that's like look it's that's very fair in a way all right and he also gets a six even though we're considering him a murderer and we'll just sell that we'll put it in a bank for him we'll just so he can gain some you know what name should I put down for the account beast man okay okay beast man beast man does he have an ID with beast man on it do you know and beast man doesn't have an ID but he'll bring in some bark chips okay okay when he gets here it's funny you should say that cuz John knew how to

make shoes at a bark wow yeah just leave that out there no that's I mean that's I would imagine you would Yeezy bad day bad day for Yeezy I mean I look at some point we're gonna have to face the fact that there are four Kanye's and it's just like multiplicity with Michael we just got four of them and we're now seeing the copy of the copy of the copy so where was I oh I said think about the shoes which is yeah not which was just a fun yeah that's fine you're going off script baby girl so three months into his tenure the new sheriff he has not caught John so he's breaking the

goddamn pledge but he's on a train and he's going to the coma because he's about to testify in a trial and a timber assessor so these guys who go out timber assessor yes so these guys who go out into the woods and like site here now it's about to drop now is when you should say timber now right hold on let me hear it crackle now say Timber Timber better better we're getting there okay it's not great so they're guys who go out in the way deep in the woods and then figure out how much the timbers worth in a certain area and then go back and tell people like this how much you should buy this for or they just work for a

company they tell you the market value of certain timbers the market value of nature that's what they're doing which is you gotta love us so a timber assessor is on the train and he he's just been in the Winochi Winochi sorry it's what I'm saying the wrong part and Winochi River and he asked the sheriff quote are you still looking for that turn out fella and the sheriff's like yeah yeah I am everything I'm doing hinges upon yes yes is the short answer okay well I got nothing a nice seeing you it's terrible talk to you he said quote well I can tell you exactly where he is and he had been out there and he says

there's a lake and on the lake is a small island and there's a little lean to on the island and a log for a way to walk out and he goes I saw it and I thought immediately that is a really good place for a wild man to hang out so the sheriff calls he gets to come he calls his brother-in-law who is a deputy sheriff Giles Quimby Quimby ex soldier considered really smart and tough and the sheriff says get the two best trappers in the Washington area and the three you go out to find this place and see if John turn out there and if he's there wait because I'm gonna bring a posse around the other side and I'll come and

meet you show of it yeah so those three guys go into the woods deep in and at this point is it dead or alive it must be I don't know if it's I assume it is there's not evidence necessarily you would need to talk to him to really determine what's going on but it feels like he's been outrunning them so long and that the public is so you know determined to catch him that if you just have his head you're happy I don't think they are deterred I think that they're very torn and there are people that are like if you brought in this new sheriff well the new sheriff is gung-ho to get him but he's a cop like a lot of people

are not on some people on board some people are not but the cop policies the cop policy is an outright kill him or whatever I don't I don't know if it is I mean I think I think after the shooting of the two guys that they're they probably want to kill him right I would imagine but the people are like there they're people like if you brought him in right now you could not convict him of anything right because there's just no evidence saying he did it except for that they had the same guns but they all had that whatever so so they the three guys go out and they go deep deep into the woods the trappers have their dogs

with them to track they get around to the area where they think John is and they come across an old prospector who's living in a cabin way out there and he's like us I've seen him sleeping and he says he saw him sleeping somewhere so they know they know he's around and the prospector lets him sleep in their cabin that night in the next morning Quimby's like well look we know he's here because we talked to the prospector let's go back get the posse bring up a bunch of guys and the trappers are like huh we're gonna go get him right now and so they go out with their dogs and Quimby stays a little ways behind he follows but he's

he's lagging and they get to the lake and they see a lean to small lake and so they start the lean to faces the water and they start walking around the lake because they want to get to the log that goes out to the lean to little island or whatever yeah they have to go through a bog they got to go through a marsh and it gets it's a pretty good little journey they're on and the whole time they're watching the lean to to see if anything moves and there's smoke coming out of it hmm and they're like that's him but they didn't know John was pretty smart so John had been catching frogs sure and then tying tying them to elk

hair and then wrapping the elk hair around the log so the frogs were attached to the log now frogs are super super loud animals they croak like crazy but when something comes near frogs get very very quiet so he's set up a frog alarm that's correct so he's got an army of frogs as his ADT that's right wow okay so when someone steps on the log the frogs go completely silent so the two trappers are like well we got this guy the lean to is facing the wrong way he can't see us up behind him right and so they go out on the log and the frog shut the fuck up and when they're eight feet away he just starts shooting oh my

god John killed one instantly by shooting him in the head the other dove recovered and started shooting back and they exchanged some shots and then John shot and killed him Jesus Christ this guy like Lee honestly leave him be this is Rambo there's no I would love to know this but the the writer of Rambo had to have known this story I mean he I just look when you're sitting frog alarms it's time to be like look this guy's that we're playing checkers this dude's playing chess let's just leave him fucking be okay enough I would like an army of frog alarms I like you what's gonna happen you get to the lean to like an

exploding elk or something like I don't want to get out right yeah yeah so Quimby is about 75 yards back and he watches the whole thing and when the two trappers are shot and killed he starts shooting he fires seven shots and he sees a head drop he doesn't hear anything there's no shooting back but he's still scared shitless cuz I honestly I would be like this is worse there's no way I'd proceed even no matter what I'd be like look he said get a posse we know where he is I'm gonna get a pot let's just get out of here these guys he's got frogs working on his behalf so he bails he he figured smart he figures it

if he killed John if he did shoot him the body's gonna be there and he didn't kill John when he doesn't want to be he's gonna be a body yeah he's want to be around so he he crawls about a hundred yards staying very low and out of sight and then he gets up and runs for the Simpson logging camp number five which is four miles away which is where he's headed for the Simpsons yes that's great so okay noted that's where the sheriff is supposed to be with the posse waiting he is he gets the next day the sheriff leads two dozen men out to the lake on the island they find the trappers bodies around the log and John turno's body oh

wow he got him the sheriff started shooting his rifle into the air and yelling quote it's over it's over cool so you're not the leader you're not the leader caps caps so Quimby's bullet had him had him just above the breastbone and lodged in his right shoulder I assume he died slow because that's not a great yeah yeah yeah he died April 16th 1913 he they all everyone says he never shot at anyone who wasn't shooting first right so John had on layers of ragged clothes but good boots which he'd taken from one of the maybe the game warden he had on six shirts and five pairs of pants well yeah now I finally relate to

them yeah we all do that yeah that's that's like the new look at the gap got to do it I'm surprised they haven't thought of that I'm surprised they haven't thought like we're three pairs of pants at once I'm sure I don't know not hard enough you could definitely move fashion into thinner layers more pants and still make 40 bucks a pop Kanye's probably working on it one of the pairs of pants were Colin McKenzie's okay so definitely no that's unless he found the body and stripped it which you know he yeah that's he's tied to that one I like the idea that he's like even skinning the people taking their clothes look at this

pelt look at this nipple belt I made yeah he also had McKenzie stopwatch there there's a few silver coins there's some tools gunny sacks matches at his camp no food he had the game warden's rifle so his body was taken to a Montesano and put on display tons of people want to see it because who doesn't want to see a dead body I just will never get that look how many people saw the Queen they didn't even see the Queen it was like it wasn't open it's open it was open they had a no it wasn't bad a little windy you could spit that would be you know I did I might have I'm gonna do open casket but just the bottom half he was

buried next to his parents and his nephews 75 years later locals started to feel bad for him and they put a markers grave he but he's becoming like a folk hero kind of deal yeah I think I think he did kill his nephews but I think he probably did on accident like I think they were shooting at the bear he thought far apart he thought someone was shooting and him he jumped up and couldn't you know they're hundred yards away he's such a good shot though I think he may be or maybe Henry did kill him like that there's so many bad other Ed is a fucking piece of shit Henry's no no come on I'm not gonna have you just to

spare Jed like that Ed was probably trying to bang his nephews Gareth wow for genuine disappointment yeah I don't know I mean yeah I who knows I mean obviously there's no way to know but that is it crazy if he killed his nephews then you know it all makes a little bit more sense why it's a man hunt but it is like you're saying I mean it's still like Rambo yeah it is like Rambo yeah the dude was good I mean living under a school can you imagine like being in class and just like looking in the floorboards and thinking you see like an open eye guy just a guy guy nod on a fish yeah just

some guy eating fish heads to a flower I need flower the source is a YouTube video Schmidt House history talks the wild man of Winnucci wiser a Kathy wiser Alexander John turn out a wild man of the Winnucci Kingston Pierce wild man of the Winnucci on history link and Elizabeth Gibson outlaw tales Washington and then the big one villain or victim by Bill Lindstrom I don't know I mean I think if he did kill the nephews it was an accident and right the issue is not just being like you know they were shooting and I didn't know who they were I think it was that he just left but that was in his nature right to not

want to deal with people so but yeah I think that I would guess that's what happened but who knows it's crazy what a wild man like they said he was the wildest man yeah what a party animal right is that we're talking about I mean in many ways he is a party animal do I also I do find it what we had a beer hat on when they found him oh that's cool you had a cheese head he was a lazy boy that's right it is amazing to me when people can just like live like that like I think that is so I'm so interested by people who are able to just survive in conditions like that yeah it's amazing it's really amazing it

really is and I think like you know there are people who are wired to need nobody I mean there are certainly times where you know like people will be like you don't want to get married and I'm you know in a microcosm where you're just like no I like I'm very independent but if some people are just wired to be totally on their own and feel way like they feel they feel like animals in our world and they feel like you know at home in nature and I don't know I think like that is in its own way just a very it's just you know amazing I mean it is amazing to think that you can just do everything even if you're living under a

school and you know fucking you know getting that bag of flour every now and then still pretty good yeah that's probably what I related to the most because I lived under a school for two years yeah no I remember that yeah yeah it was hard to record them but yeah no I know the fact that we kept the podcast going during that time was crazy yeah yeah I remember that was there's nuts because there were so many functions going on after school hours and you had Saturday Detentions we had to work around a lot of that stuff but we still got the shows done and did you record the first six on your own under a school

I did yeah you did the Mike Tyson one under a school yeah that was sort of the inspiration because I was just under there you know I had stolen some Reese's PCs and they were after me and I just went under there for about two years I don't like how close your Reese's pieces is to feces you called them Reese's PCs which is just no no no they're Reese's pieces so I'm not gonna absolutely look we're not gonna bear bear this but they're they're they're based on feces be I mean that really now we're in shell Silverstein territory Reese's PCs are based on feces David we should point out that if anyone has any interest in

watching this video or having an ad-free experience as well as other content we do have a patreon you can go to patreon search the dollop and we are there for a dollar a month you get a bunch of stuff and then there's a couple tiers higher than that you know very much that's how we self-survive in our nature is through things like that so that's it what a what a terrible segue into capitalism that was awful thank you all right there you go everybody Pete's out Pete's out we got to stop with that