The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds - 596 - Slave Thomas H Jones

Episode Date: August 22, 2023

Comedians Gareth Reynolds and Dave Anthony examine slave Thomas H Jones Tour Dates Redbubble Merch Sources   Squarespace Helix Sleep - Code: HelixPartner25

This episode of the dollop is dedicated to Ron DeSantis and the state of Florida. You're listening to the dollop. This is an American History Podcast or each week. I, Dave Anthony, re-ah. I just want to say for that moment, just Dave Anthony. Is everything okay? Just kind of take it in how great it is. What's going on? Do a history podcast, about America with this guy.

What? What? Let's go at this, I don't. I just savoring my, Garrett, my part. Garrett Reynolds, who has no idea what the topic is going to be about. Get that part fast. I don't think it's fair the way that we savor your name and mine is.

We just blow through your ears, but mine. Here's what I'm talking to some- But this whole intro thing has just become so bizarre. Start from sound guys and we're going to have like a whole This is Dave Anthony explosions, jets, just the whole, maybe a band, you know, a marching band kind of things. It's not a great. Sure.

And then we're talking, it seems pretty insane. We're talking with the producers about then just leaving it and not having you do your part. Just to like trim it up a little bit, you know what I mean? That seems very strange. Now just for the intro and then I'll be on the show, or what are you talking about? Just to be on the show, I think I've been talking to your manager and your people, and we're thinking it's best

if your name never comes up again. You know what I mean? It's pretty crazy. So it'll be the day, Anthony, dollop, and then I'm doing it with a guy, mystery guest. And maybe we'll do some weird mystery sounds, like a music. Oh, what's the mystery?

But it's always me. Yeah, it'll probably always be you. It's just easier to book you. Probably. Yeah. Anyway, that's what we're at with the current talks, the negotiations, as far as the new contract and everything. Oh, right, right.

That whole thing that's invented by a Loonitech who. Well, new. OK, sure. If that's a guy who runs the. Huh? Yeah, and that again is who? Dei-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-epuh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh-puh- Let's start the show. Yeah Great. Yeah good And called it quote his jam pat Jim and I'm the fucking hippo guy. Dave. Okay. What I'm Gary. What it's good?

Wait is it far five and this is not gonna come to tickle you podcast. Okay I'm a five-part coefficient Now hit him with the puppy you both present sick arguments No sleep. Don't hit. Oh. That's not gonna hit him up. Actually, part. I can't be. No, I see it done, my friend. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no the ad you're dealing in that it gives us,

like, stuff to read and what to talk about in this one, is Helix Sleep, Bill Burr's Labor Day sale copy. Oh wow. So I guess you do burr. We got the helix mattress. It's unbelievable. Well, Garrett, we're brought to you, or sorry, Bill, we're brought to you in part by helix sleep mattresses.

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Our courses, it's all there. It's all, we're all in, 100% in. Yep. I have actually fused with Squarespace. I am part, is that right? Yeah, it's a tragic. Have you ever seen the fly? The movie The Fly?

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We were on board with Squarespace. Yeah, a lot of people think that we started Squarespace because of our interest. I don't know how I'm going to reverse the process and become part not of Squarespace website company, but... Well, it might help the new intro you're talking about, honestly. So we recommend it. They make great websites. They're easy to use. They've got all kinds of templates. They look really good. They've got 24, 7 support.

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Yeah, October 7th. We're gonna be in Bloomington at the bus Kirk Chunley theater now. That's the only show That won't be masked Because that was a bit of an issue with that theater. Then October 10th will be in Chicago, October 11th Milwaukee, October 12th Madison, October 14th St. Paul, that's our full tour. That's the whole Shabang and you go to adultpodcast.com slash tour, get your ticket link. 1806! I didn't know it. How did you know? Did you hear me say it?

I'm getting better at these. No. Are you vibing, bro? Are you vibing? I'm on Molly. Okay. Thomas H. was born into slavery. Thomas H was born into slavery. I was gonna make a great how we couldn't afford a last name joke, but. Uh huh.

There we go. There you go making comedy impossible again. Yeah. I guess his name at this time would be haws H-E-W-E-S. So maybe Thomas haws. So he said his parents were very aware of the destiny of the inevitable suffering in store for their children, because they were born in a slavery.

Sure. They would discuss their kids just upcoming misery and they would just cry as they talked about their kids eventually being taken from them and sold and maybe never seen them again or hearing from them again. We're coming out hot. So yeah yeah it's really a lot fertile, fertile land here. Make a joke, you're the comedy guy. Boy what a absolute nightmare this country's history is. There were owned by a Mr. Haas.

He did not employ an overseer. Instead, he did himself with the help of his son, Inak. Inak. Okay. Inak. Is that better? It's a terrible name. I think Inak, but I know nothing.

I think it's, I think, I mean, it depends, but I think that having, though I guess the overseer wouldn't matter, it's just how you're treated, right? Haas is not a good. Right. But he's very cruel to his slaves. So once a year they get shoes, a blanket, a hat,

and five-year yards of very coarse, homespun cotton from which they would make their clothes Oh my god, so he'd be like here's some shitty stuff It's just here You know once a year once a year Yeah, they got they got a frock for each child they had And then they get one pack of corn a week. What is a pack? How much is a pack?

About eight quarts. Eight quarts. That's all they get to eat. Okay, so they- It's not a lot of corn. They would grind it and make bread out of another stuff. They didn't get, they got no meat, they got no butter, they got no milk,

just the corn. Wait, that was all they got? Yeah, they really corned it up. They didn't get, they got no meat, they got no butter, they got no milk, just the corn. Wait, that was all they got? Yeah, they cornded up, they went to corn town. During planting and harvest seasons, they had to work very early and they were up very late, so they would have to get up at 3 a.m. and work until it was dark. What is the plan here? Is this your first episode without me? Because this would be very easily be that one.

I'm trying to help you out with your lack of historical knowledge. Well, it's really problematic. And I feel like I don't want to know it anymore now. So we're good. So after they worked that full day, then they would have to make their dinner. And they would make breakfast the next day. They worked in the fields, they were clear.

They were in New Land, they chop and burn brushes, they burn tar kilns and they dig ditches, and then they harvest and plant. So this is what Thomas does for the first nine years of his life. I don't know when he started working, but I'm imagining it was like when he was four or something or, you know, like I would imagine. Right. As soon as you were able.

Pretty. Well, like we did with my kid. Get him working really young. Right. Yeah. No, a lot of people have said that that's a fine comparison to make for sure. So then one day a guy comes to the door. His name is Abraham.

He's a slave owned by a guy named Mr. Jones, and he tells Thomas that Mr. Jones has bought him and said, quote, Tom, you must go with me. So he's nine. So that's time to get out. That's time to, you know, for the baby bird to fly, right? The sorry Abraham is a slave. Yes. And he tells he's like Thomas is coming with me. Yeah, because someone hit because Abraham's owner bought

about Tom. Thomas. And so Tom and Thomas. Yeah, nine years old so he's scared obviously cries and his mom said you know quote I can't save you Tommy master's sold you you must go So that's it so he he makes He makes the long walk to I thought he meant that was the end of the episode I was like no it keeps going there. He makes a long walk to Wilmington. It's about 45 miles And they don't they're walking. I don't know horse. He said Abraham was pretty heartless. They walked in the, in the cold. He wasn't dressed for the cold. So he, he was just like, he's nine. So he's like, I got to sit down. I got to stop. Yeah, he's nine. I think saying he's nine is, so, so Abraham's like, no,

you're not stopping and finally he just lays down and goes, I'm going to just do this. And then Abraham gives in and finds them shelter in a cabin for the night. And then the next morning they finish the walk. So 45 miles in a couple of days. So it gets his new place, his new job with the Joneses is to take care of an old gray horse, get spring water for the house, do errands at Mr. John's store, clean boots and shoes of white family members and white visitors, sweep rooms, get the firewood.

So it's a pretty big shift. He works from dawn until sunset midnight. How are they scout him specifically? Like why? I think, I would imagine, based on the app, the newspapers I've seen, imagine based on the at the newspapers I've seen there's a post in the paper or whatever and and you it's a four sales sign and they just go have a nine year old boy I'm looking at a get rid of and then some guys like what's he like? Good worker you know what's he like?

He's nine you know he's a kid., he's, he wants to be played ball, but why are we doing this instead? So, one day he's working and he thinks there's a thing about his family and he's just overcome with depression. And he just sits down and he just doesn't work that day. Quote, the next morning, my master made me strip off my shirt and then wrap me with a my shirt and then wrap me with

a cow hide and then whipped me with a cow hide to the blood ran trickling down upon the floor. So as master is swearing a lot, he says, he says, look there's only one way you're going to avoid a whipping and that's to do your work. It doesn't matter if you're sick or sad or healthy, whatever, you get the work done. Which is how you treat not- I'm still here, yeah. I'm here. I know. I know. It's okay. Sometimes they're hard at the start. Yeah, I don't want you to think there's like issues. Yeah. Why people should I hear this? You especially. Well, I don't know. I don't like the especially, but yes, of course they should. especially. Now, I don't know, I don't like the especially, but yes, of course they should.

So three years later, he is in town and he's buying a watermelon off a cart. So the guy in the street has a cart of watermelons. And it's another, it's another slave that's selling it. And and the guy, the guy says, well, you don't have enough money, like he only had whatever, $3 or whatever, he goes, there's six. And then he's like, well, you don't have enough money. Like, he only had whatever, $3 or whatever. He goes, there's six. And then he's like, well, who's your owner? That can't be the right price, can it be? They were, I've read this story. I think it was $6. Like, I don't really get it,

but they might have been six cents, and then they, there was misinterpreted or whatever, but yeah, that's pretty expensive. So the dude starts asking questions. He's like, who's your owner? And they tell somebody goes, oh, well, who's your mom? And then he really zeroes in and Thomas tells them all these answers.

And then he said, quote, he then laid the melon on the cart and took me in his arms and hugged and kissed me and said, you are my child. So this is a dad. Oh my God, Jesus. So do I get that, what's the watermelon discount? Is that, can I, will you lower the rate a little bit? Dad discount.

He had a truck and double. Do I get a dad's count? There's an opposite for him. I make this count. Yeah, you get a double fee. This is a brutal country. It's a brutal country. So, so he goes back and he tells Ms. Jones, he goes, I saw my dad in town and she goes, we'll go get him and bring him back.

So he runs and he gets his dad and his dad comes and she's super nice to him. And she says, the word treating your son really well, quote, he has been a good boy since he has been with me. If he behaves well, I will treat him well, which is a weird threat. Like, well, it's also, it's just like, just the measuring stick of quality of life is so ridiculous.

100%. 100. Oh, well, yes. Don't worry. I'm treating your son well. He's in my slave. He only works all day long. Yeah, I treat him really well for a slave. It's pretty good and my husband beat him and yeah, we're treating him great.

So his father, it turns out, lives 20 miles away and she tells them, you know, whenever you're in town, please come visit. So now he has a connection with his dad, again, at least. Okay. After a little bit, he's, he's sent to work in the family store. And the store clerk, David Kojol, is very nice to him.

And Kojol's also nice to other slaves. And so Mr. Jones is like, I, that, I don't like that. And also, it, that offends other slave owners when they come in and see a white guy being nice to slaves. They're like, what is going on in this? Because they're like, come on. I thought we were all going to be dickheads.

So, Mr. Jones, Mr. Jones admits that a cordial is, he's trustworthy and he's valuable, but he's like, I gotta fire you. I gotta look, I like what you're doing. Like I like you're really organized. You're very good with the money. You're very good management, but we have, I mean, it's an attitude.

There's a code here. with the money, you're very good management, but we have, I mean, it's an attitude. There's a code. There's a code here. You're, I mean, if you could find it within yourself to be meaner to slaves, I could probably keep you around, but right now the attitude's not great, you know what I mean? It's, it's not, I'm not leaving. I want you to come to work, happy to work here, but mad at people we own. Need does that make sense?

We're looking to have your heart removed. Is that, and that you can stay then, does that? Yes. Empathy out, you know what I mean? Let's get rid of that. We're gonna have an empathy vacuum that we've been using a lot. We just suck it right out of you.

It'll be easy. So they fire this guy. We do it through the ass. What? They fire this guy. They fire the guy who's nice to slaves. Jesus. Any hires poor young white kid named James Dixon

who is the same age as Thomas, so they're in their teens at this point. Yeah. Dixon, that is. That's also like terrible, on top of terrible. Yeah. I mean, and I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to like trivialize this, I mean that,

but I've told this before, when my mother hired a 12-year-old to babysit me when I was 11. Yeah and it was just one good. No that's weird. Again that is not the same but. So he's like like I said same age as Thomas they're both their teens. James can Dixon can barely read or write, and he's teaching himself, he's got like spelling books and stuff. And Dixon is also nice to Thomas, but he definitely has irritable moments,

so he's okay with Jones, you know what I mean? Like, he's definitely dickish sometimes, a little ill-mannered. You're a big dick. I mean, you got dick in your last name. You're better. So Thomas starts to feel comfortable around Dixon. He starts asking about these books that he has.

These reading and learning to read and spell books. And Dixon says, look, I'm trying to learn enough so that someday I can run my own business. And he tells Thomas that a man with an education would always have friends and do well in the world without having to work much. That's the life of an educated man. Now, guys who did not have any learning would not have any friends and would have to work every day. Or they start a podcast with a guy who will just read them

the stuff and then he'll do accents. So that sound good? Yeah, yeah, it's fine. It's also a good way to, yeah, that's fine. It's also a good way to handle it, I'd say. So they have this conversation, and the light bulb goes off in Thomas's head, and he's like, okay, so I just need to learn how to read

and write, and he becomes obsessed with the idea of learning a rewrite. Sorry Dave. Sorry very very quickly. When did when was the light bulb invented? Oh shit. So a little fire happens right above the side. Yeah he can't. There's a fire. A candle. A candle's lit. No it's a full. The wick of a candle's lit in his mind. It's a giant tree fire right above his head. Okay. It's terrifying. People are scared. That just helps. As they should be. Yeah. Of course. Okay. So Thomas starts a brainstorm. Right. He's like, how do I get a spelling book? He's trying to think of how to do it. And then

he comes up with a plan. And he's cleaning the books of the sorry. He's cleaning the boots And he's cleaning the books, sorry, he's cleaning the boots after, he's cleaning the boots of David Smith who runs a printing business. And David seems like a nice guy, he treats Thomas OK. So he asks Smith about getting him a spelling book, and Smith just gets really quiet and he stares at Thomas for a while and then he asks why he wants a spelling book. And Thomas says that he wants to learn to read and Smith shook his head and said, quote, no Thomas, it would not answer for me to sell you a book to learn out of. You will only get yourself into trouble if you attempt it, and I advise you to get that foolish notion

out of your head as quickly as you can. I like how the idea that it's like, look, this is Jumanji, okay? Just quit sniffing around these spell books. Like, it's so, it's just so fucking bizarre and bad. Okay. I think this guy is like, he thinks he's looking out for Thomas. Januens?

He thinks he's looking out for Thomas. He thinks like, if this guy starts reading a book, he's gonna get the shit kicked out of him and he's gonna get in trouble. Someone will find it. He's gonna start, yeah. That's how it comes across. So Thomas is not.

Well, it's nice to know who the hero is. That's right. I appreciate that at least. So Thomas is not gonna give up. He still wants to learn how to read. So David Smith has a brother, Peter, and Peter owns a bookstore. So he goes to Peter and he says the same thing. And Peter's like, why do you want a spelling book?

And this time, Thomas, say it out. These follow-ups, these follow-ups are just, well, what do you, I want to sell it to someone. What do you think he wants it for? Thomas has thought about it, and it's time he lies. And he says, it's for a white boy who lives at Mr. Jones House, and he gave me money to buy it. So Peter sells him the spelling book. And Thomas is crazy excited. He thinks reading is going to lead him to

freedom and influence and happiness like this is just fucking ticket out. And he hides the book under liquor barrels in the smokehouse. See, I would hide it under other books. Just feels like liquor, they're gonna be like, we just get all the liquor out of you, we just drink the liquor. I don't think there's about a book slaying around. Well, I would hide it under like dirt rather than like, what are they gonna do?

They'll probably drink. But okay, all right, so he hides it under liquor. No, I think he's in charge of that liquor room. Like he has to go and get the liquor and bring it out like, so it's his spot. So, okay. Okay. He could make out the pictures, but that's about it.

The words are, and the letters are just crazy, random symbols to him. He could make out the pictures, but that's about it. The words are, and the letters are just crazy, random symbols to them, like he doesn't know what the fuck it is. And he goes to James, and he starts talking about his spelling book and he asks him to tell him about it. And James laughs, because that's crazy, a black eye asking about his spelling book. But then Thomas is like, what's that? And he goes, that's crazy, a black eye asking about a spelling book. But then Thomas is like, what's that?

And he goes, that's an A. And then James goes to the whole alphabet for him. Now, Thomas knows he's going to need help. He just not going to be able to do this on his own. And so the next day, he goes back to James. And he says, hey, can you tell me those? Those that alphabet again and Not James is like what are you doing? What do you mean you want to the alphabet again buddy? Stop you look don't open Jumanji

And now he's like are you trying to read and he starts grilling him And now he's like, are you trying to read? And he starts grilling him to make sure that Thomas is not trying to read. And then he gets angry and he says, it's not Thomas's place to try to improve himself. And it's not proper for a slave to learn to read. And he's like, I'm gonna tell Mr. Jones and Thomas now is mad and they start arguing and

Really going at it and Tom a James is using super racist language in the yelling each other and Thomas is calling the poor white, you know, nothing An ignorant servant and while they're yelling at each other Mr. Jones comes in And a white black. I can't yell at a white guy. So he just goes over and takes down a whip and whips Thomas. And he tells Thomas, and everyone here he talks back to white man ever again. So now Thomas hates James.

And he's like, he has to find another person who's going to help him learn how to read. And there's a boy at the bakery who's always super nice to Thomas, a 10-year-old boy. And he asks, he's like, will you help me learn how to read? And the kid tells Thomas the name of the letters goes over the alphabet with them and So now Thomas does a few more letters So he's he's now he's going over them. He goes over the letters every day to try to remember right ABCD Like he's not healing us a few right and There's a there's a ten-year-old kid Here I'm a brick it and he comes to star one day and this is another kid that he feels like he can trust.

And he goes to him and he goes, will you help me? And I will pay you six cents a week if you meet me each day at my lunch to tutor me. So the kid says yes. So every day at noon, they go into a stall and his father's stable and they go over the book. It's hilarious. It's like spy shit, but it's not.

Well, it's almost like trying to buy drugs. It's like, you know, do you have an R? You got any, what do you want to show me what K is? Hey, look, I'm just looking for K. What did you say? Look? You got any act? What do you, you want to show me what K is? Hey, look, I'm just looking for K. What did you say? I'm looking for a team of eight. I'm just trying to get a little bit of K.

Trying to, trying to figure out the vowels. Anyone got the vowels? Looking for the vowels. Looking for the vowels. So they do that for a little while. And then one day a slay boy goes to Hiram's father and he tells him what's going on and Hiram is reprimanded and he's told never to help Thomas again.

But at that point, he is reading and spelling two syllable words. So that's so much, that's how they have to go. Huge jump. From a 10 year old boy, he learned this basic stuff. At this point, he is studying any free moment he has he just starts whipping out the book and studying now Mr. Jones starts to get a little suspicious Because Thomas would go into the back room and be really quiet like he's not here and move around the back room and be really quiet. Like he's not here and move around. Super quiet in there. And Mr. Jones starts trying to sneak back to catch Thomas at whatever he's doing.

But Thomas would, he'd hear his footsteps or he'd see a shadow on the wall and he'd hide the book really quick and start working. Start masturbating. I'm just jerkingping off sir. It's all okay so But pretty soon he can he can read five syllable words now and Holy shit, and he knows there's a he knows there's a slave who can read and his name is net And he goes to net and he goes you got to you got to help me out and take me to the next level and Ned's like I'm not getting involved that's crazy don't do that. It gets really fucking bad But then Thomas reads to me goes this is how far I can read right now and that's like holy shit this guy's like almost there

Legit so he he agrees to help legitimate and he goes, and he goes, L E G I. Yeah, okay. And Ned's like, look, you're past the book you're using. You need a new book. One that teach you how to write it teaches you how to letters and read at the same time. So he goes, he goes to, I don't know how this happens, but he goes to the Warchester store in Wilmington and he buys it. So somehow he figured out this where he could have bought it. It's more chesters, like the worst word ever. Yeah, he's awful. No, that would have stopped me from reading if I was him out of it.

I'd be like, all right, well, this is bullshit. None of this. I think that's where I sort of stopped. Yeah. Yes. So Thomas gets a box. He gets a box. And inside of it, he puts in pens and a candle.

And he keeps it hidden under his bed. And so he's doing late night writing and reading. And then one night, he takes it out. And he's like, I'm going to write my name. And he writes Thomas Jones and he's fucking over the moon. He can't believe he did this. So soon afterwards he's sitting in the back of the store. He's sitting on a barrel and he's just reading his book and he's totally absorbed in it. And Mr. Jones comes in and Thomas doesn't hear him.

And at the last second he sees him and he throws the book in the middle of the barrels. And Jones didn't see what he'd throw, but he knows he threw something. So he's like, you're stealing. You gotta be stealing. What was in your hands? You're stealing from me. And I am. Yes, I'm stealing. It's like, you're stealing. You gotta be stealing. What was in your hands? You're stealing from me. And you're... I am, yes, I'm stealing.

It's liquor, please. It's liquor and cock. It was liquor and cock. Yeah. Yeah. And so Jones is like, what was it? Like he's demanding to know what it was. And Thomas said, I'm not stealing.

I didn't throw anything. And Jones is like, you're lying. And he goes, let's start rolling away the barrels. We're going to find whatever the fuck you threw. Hey there, people listening to the dollop. This is Garif. Yes, this is the same guy. I listen, I have a new podcast called We're Here to Help that I'm doing with my friend, Jake Johnson. It's basically a call and advice show where we don't say that we're professionals because we aren't, but we try to help people with problems that are important to them. You can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts and it is

out right now. So go listen to we're here to help with Jake and Garrett. We're here to help with Garrett and Jake. I don't remember how we did it, but either way, fun half hour comes out Tuesday, August 22nd, and episodes will be out every Tuesday and Friday. We're here to help. And Thomas starts rolling the barrels, but as he does, he keeps kicking the book to move it out of view of Mr. Jones, who just stays in the doorway. He never comes in. And he's just getting getting furious and he's in a fuel full rage and so he goes and gets his whip and he orders Thomas to take off his top quote I will make you tell me what it was you had when I came in and he starts

hitting him and he had some 30 times. So blood is just flowing down his back. And he goes, tell me what you threw. And Thomas says, I didn't throw anything. And now Jones is fucking losing it. And he's telling Thomas, he's lying. He's just gonna kill me. I'm gonna kill you if you don't tell me the truth. He starts whipping him again.

He starts whipping him harder. He's just in a total rage. And Thomas is like, I'm gonna die instead of giving up the book. I'm not giving up this book. Lord, I would just, I would say a snake. You would say snake? I don't know. I would come up with something.

Yeah, lie, you lie. He just, he just, he's not, he's not gonna do it. He's just like, well, he's probably just, you know what I mean, if he finds the book, he's probably gonna get killed anyway. Yeah, right. Probably just like, this might be a little bit safer. Yeah, I think he thinks maybe this will,

and Dave, can I just, can I just say this quickly? This is the only podcast where two white guys are just popping themselves in the perspective of a slave so comfortable. Oh, I don't think that's true at all. I think there's a lot of podcasts on the daily caller and Ben Shapiro's network and other places where they're doing that. Okay.

Yeah. Well, we're the most likeable ones. What do you want to take the perspective of Mr. Jones? Would that make you feel more comfortable? I don you want to take the perspective of Mr. Jones? Would that make you feel more comfortable? I don't want to have this conversation. I don't want to have this conversation anymore. Ha, ha, ha, ha.

You know, not a lot of people understand that sometimes when you're dealing with this, you really are when you put up a Barbie video that nobody respects, you basically are becoming a slave of that one. You are a literal slave. You are as much of a slave as a slave ever was in this country so he keeps whipping a more and then and then he stops

which stops whipping him and says quote why tom i didn't think i'd cut you so bad so he realizes how badly he's fucking whipping him. I mean, the idea that if you, he must be bleeding so badly for that guy to be like, Jesus Christ. Wow, look at this. This is pretty bad. Holy shit.

This is not good. Yeah, I think he just saw, well, it's a black guy defying him. I mean, that's what this is. Like, it's, you know, you're not allowed to do that. So he's just in a blind fucking rage. Like, he can't control himself. And then he finally at some point is like, holy shit.

It's so he tells Thomas, he goes, put on your shirt. And as Thomas does that, he grabs his book and he hides it. So then he goes home where another slave helps take care of him and Jones' wife is like, take out of your shirt. I wanna see your wounds. And at this point, the shirt is dried to his back and so when they rip it off, he's like, that was worse than the whipping the pain.

And when Jones comes home his wife is fucking pissed. She's like you just totally this is too far like you you went too far. But this does not stop Thomas. Thomas continues to learn to read and write every single chance he gets. This is where I'm out. I'm probably out before, but this is where I'm 100%. I'm out before.

I'm a yeah. It's also so like, the idea that it's like the domestic, like the husband's like, boy, my wife really gave me a bunch of shit for how bad I beat this guy the husband's like, boy, my wife really gave me a bunch of shit for how bad I beat this guy. It's like, very strange when like your domestic issues are like, yeah, you almost murdered a guy like,

honey, you're in the dog house. And it may just been the perspective of like, you harmed our property, not he's a person. But I feel like it harkens back to the way that... I feel like it's like when she saw... when she talked to his dad and she's like, oh, we're taking great care of him and all that. Like, she...

Again, in like this bazaar-o, whatever backward upside down inverted empathy was like, I pride myself on having some sensitivity backward upside down inverted empathy was like, I pride myself on having some sensitivity towards the amazingly insensitive world we live in. Yeah, I mean, possibly. There's so many shades of how terrible people can be. Yes. One day he's reading, and he reads something

in his book about God, and it's just like a sentence or something and So he goes to another slave who's very religious and he says tell me about Jesus You talking jet you you talking J town J town. He's just telling about J town and he goes well J town's pretty rad We don't know what they are yet, but there's a lot of talk about roller blades Jetskies Jetskies. Jetskies. Sure, the whole nine. So that's what I was like. It's all about Jesus and to many of Jesus to have a good and happy life.

And then he tells me, oh, Jones, right? So Thomas goes to Mr. Jones and he goes, so I've heard about Jesus and I'm kind of into Jesus and Jones fucking loses it. And he's fucking swearing. And he says he's going to whip him again if he doesn't stop praying. And Jones says, there is no heaven, there's no hell, Christians or hypocrites. And Thomas is like, well, you can whip me.

It's not going to stop me from praying. I'm going to pray. And so Jones whips him. And then he forbids him from praying. And he goes, you can't pray. You can't go any religious meetings. Thomas quote, the next Sunday I went to a religious meeting. And a free man tells Jones that Thomas has gone to the meeting.

So he's whipped again in the morning. And the next Sunday, Thomas goes back. And Jones now, like, I'm going to kill you if you don't obey me. And he whips Thomas again. Jesus Christ. And a friend goes to Jones and he says, man, a pious slave, a slave who is religious is way more valuable. So what are you doing? And Jones says he doesn't want his slaves praying and whining about their souls. Oh my God, this, this, what a lovely argument.

Ah! Ah! Well, it almost feels like for a minute that that other guy was maybe gonna be like the voice of reason like, hey man, you need to relax. So yeah, your slave is interested in God. There's a moamula. Yeah, you could get the money from that. Come on. You get my money, buddy. I really think that

I mean reading this I really thought that Mr. Jones Didn't want them to have a glimmer of hope And that was why he didn't want him to have religion he didn't want he didn't want to musty think that in the afterlife he would be okay i also wonder how much is like if there's an afterlife i am like a vile piece of shit who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who who like yeah well yeah i could be it maybe i don't know i want to add a man is not that much self awareness uh... so he is uh... this is obviously a bad situation

um... he yes this time he whips tomah so badly that tomah's thinks he's gonna die but at the end of the whipping tomah said two j, I'm still going to pray, and I'm going to pray as long as I live. And Jones said, quote, well then, Tom, I swear that I'll whip you debt to death. And he starts again, but then he just stops, and he throws the whip down. A few days later, a Christian leader asked Thomas if he could forgive Jones. He goes, can you forgive this man for what he's doing to you?

And Thomas said, I already have. And I'm praying for God to forgive him. And then the guy says, you are a Christian. You are a full blown Christian And Thomas is super excited and he goes and he tells Jones wife He's a Christian and he's in full in on Jesus. He's in the J town train and He goes and he tells Dexon who's like you're a fucking idiot and you're gonna get whipped again

Dixon who's like, you're a fucking idiot and you're gonna get whipped again. And then Jones comes to talk to him and he's like, I should whip you again. And Thomas just starts taking off his clothes. And then Jones is like, you're fucking crazy. Keep your clothes on. And this time he whips him with his jacket on. So it doesn't really do much. And that's the last time Jones ever whips Thomas. He broke, he broke Jones.

Well, I will, which is great. And there is the idea that it's like, no, don't take your clothes off. I'm gonna go get that. Like, it's that moment where you're like, oh wow, he's changed. And he's like, no, he's still like, what's not like the superstition.

I was like, it's still a sweet gesture. Maybe that I felt like you could hear like the music swelling, like, hold on. I just would be with the clothes on. Okay. So at this point, Thomas is 18. So now, Jones is broken. Jones realizes he cannot, he's not going to be able to break Thomas.

No matter what the fuck, his choice is now to kill him or to give in. And Mr. Jones gives in to Thomas. Wow. Wow. To go to religious meetings, if you're a slave, you need a piece of paper that you carry with you that says you have permission to attend religious meetings. So Thomas joins a church and oh, sorry, Jones gives him that, so he's always got this piece

of paper on him, so he can, if he's walking somewhere, he can go, I'm going to this religious meeting. He joins a church, he studies at the church, but now he's got everything he wanted, and he's depressed. He... Thomas is? He can't take the studies as far as he wants,

because he realizes actual improvement is not an option for a slave. Like this is finding Jesus learning how to read. That's like the extent of it. So he's just at the age 23 He's in total despair Right around this time Mr. Jones falls ill on a Sunday and he dies on a Friday nice

And then a man named Owen Holmes comes and buys Thomas for $435 Now Holmes is the complete opposite of Jones, and he treats Thomas with kindness, you know, whatever, how much a respect, but he treats him very, very well. He treats all his slaves well. And Thomas is now like, I'm lonely, I want a wife, like I want to start having, you know, a family. So he starts looking on a tender whatever, and...

Sure. So it's kind of hard to wrap your head around this. When you find a wife and you're a slave, it's not permanent because that person can be sold away at any time. So you're what, like when you were I get married, we're like, okay, so it's tell we're old and whatever, but this is like, maybe it's not. I have no control over it. And you're talking about, yeah, it's like it.

She has a different, she has a different owner than you do. So it's a whole fucked up. Yeah. So that's part of the factor into how you're factoring into how, you know, what you're going to do. But he's like, I'm still going to, I still want to wife. I'm lonely. And he's, and you know, they're, they're slaves. So they've seen this a bunch. They've seen people sold off.

They've seen, it's like common. So he meets and marries Lucilla Smith. She's 17 years old. And he says, quote, I love her with all my heart. And they spend a lot of time talking about, you know, the horrifying possibility of them being separated. And then Thomas makes a deal with his owner.

He pays homes $150 a year to work, and then he gets to keep the rest of the money that he earns. So, he's not going out getting jobs, and as long as he gives homes $150, he can do what he wants to keep the rest. Right. So he starts making money. He rents a house, he gets a job loading ships for $1 or $1.25 a day.

If he has a disagreement with someone that he works for, his own or homes would come and make that person settle. Like there is a captain named Adams. And he, and after Thomas does the job, he's like, okay, so here's what we agreed to and the guy's like, I'm not going to pay you that. And so Thomas goes to Holmes and Holmes goes, you made an agreement beforehand, how much you'd be paid? He goes, yeah, so Holmes walks over, takes a pistol and then he grabs a really long knife and Thomas is like you

don't need you don't need those and home said quote oh you never mind I'm gonna get your money and I mean if you feel like you got to have them sure I mean if you got a couple guy you know let's do this. Okay, sure. Get this sorted. So if I were to work, go ahead and find the captain. And, and he, to Homestock so many, he goes, you guys made an agreement on this money, and now you're not paying him, and Holmes asks why,

you go, why don't you pay what you agreed to? And the captain said, Thomas is asking for too much, and he's like, well, you agreed. And then Thomas says, look, I can, I guess there's something where he can put a hold on the ship. He can say, I have a financial disagreement with the ship, and then the ship can't leave.

So he's like, I'll put a hold on the ship. And right when he says that, the captain is a partner who comes out and he goes, just pay the guy, just pay him. And so the captain goes to hand homes the money and homes goes, no, no, you don't give me that money. You put it in Thomas's hand. And so the captain has to go over and put it in Thomas's hand. So this is now he's-

He's lores. Right, he's like, this is a guy who's like- He's got some muscle. He's got some muscle, but he's also got a little bit of a soul compared to everyone else around, right? He's like, no, he's gonna treat his- Yeah, right, it's gonna mean, he's got some muscle. He's got some muscle, but he's also got a little bit of a soul compared to everyone else around, right? He's like, no, I mean, he's got like, yeah, someone else to say. He just forced to be like, look, dude. He just forced a white guy to treat a black guy with respect.

I mean, essentially, a slave. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. So he makes really good money while he's working, while he's owned, sorry, owned by homes while he's working, you know, paying him the hundred fifty bucks. Sometimes he'd make three dollars a day in one time in eight days, he made fifty bucks. So he's making money and he's saving it up. When his father was really old, he wants to care for him. And he has a Baptist deacon, who's a white guy, offer 50 bucks a year if they to take away his dad

and, quote, in this way, I secured his liberty. While he was 20 miles from me, I could not take care of him when he was sick, but after he was removed to my house, I could attend to his wants. So he's now taking care of his dad. His dad died. There was like two or he's now taking care of his dad. His dad died, there was like two or three years,

he took care of his dad. His dad died in April 1848. And at some point, he learns his mother is just old and broken down after not the hard laborers. Like it's crazy how short their lifespan is. So she's way under what you would think someone should be, she's just broken down from the years of labor. And so he walks 85 miles to the plantation,

he was born at. And she's alone, the guy sold off her husband and her kids and she's just in bad shape. So he asks if he can take care of her. He's like, I would like to take my mother. And Mrs. Haas is like, absolutely not. She's quote, betterly opposed. She's like, you're not taking her.

Even though she's of no value as far as work goes anymore, she's literally bed-read. Yeah, right. No, but she's like, you're not taking her. Yeah, but come on, Dave. I mean, what do you expect? I mean, come on. So finally, Mr. Haas is like, just, let's just agree to this so we can get rid, like to them, it's a burden gone, right? I don't have to feed her that I'm doing anything. So they finally

agree and they let Thomas Takeer. It's Christ. His mom burst into tears like she's overjoyed. Christ his mom burst into tears like she's overjoyed they have to take her on beds to a boat and then they put her on the boat and then they take her and it's this Methodist guy who finds the boat for him and And then they get to where they're going and they need another bed and the guys like I'll give you my bed And so they take the meth this bed and they carry her. The meth it is? Yeah, they carry her to Thomas's house. So now that's where she lives, the final three years of her life with herself. With homes.

And homes as property or whatever. Thomas, with Thomas. Yeah, but at who's, you said his house, he has his own house. Or you're talking about his house. Thomas has a house for that kind of almost renting a house okay all right okay i got you so uh...

so he and the sila three kids now lucilla is a really good seamstress which makes her valuable which makes Thomas constantly worry that her own her would get into money trouble and sell her because she's worth a lot.

So one day he's working on the docs and at this point he has men working under him. He's got like a little business going. He's paying dudes, he's bringing in money and a neighbor comes and he says your wife and kids have been sold and if you want to see him again you have to go immediately. So he runs home and the new owner is there, his name is Moore. And he said, Thomas quote, well old man, are these your wife and children?" And Tom and said, yes, and he said, quote, well, I bought them. I just want to point out that the Florida schoolbooks say that slaves learned stuff. They picked up skills. So Thomas asked, if if more he goes, will you sell them to my master? Holmes.

And Moore says, quote, oh no, I've bought your wife for a seamstress and I can't let her go. And he pleads. He's like, the kids do it for the kids. And Moore is like, no, so like the kids, do it for the kids. And more is like, no. So they're having this conversation as they're walking to the boat where he's never going to see his wife again. And as they're walking the boat, all of the other slaves find out she's been sold and they're coming down to say hi to buy tour, right? They're saying they're go buys to this person they've known their whole life. And more is just fucking furious. And he's like, stop talking to these people. Like he doesn't even want them to say goodbye. And they get to the dock and Holmes is there. And he offers to buy the family in Morse's. They're not available for any price in Holmes's. How about

a thousand dollars? And he goes, no. And Holmes looks at him and says, I would never split up a family. And that more is like, whatever. And then Holmes says that I did what I could do. And the kids are crying. And they separate as they pass his son to the first mate, Thomas sees the first mate is crying. So there's, there's different versions of people here, right? There's the terrible people who have zero empathy. And then there's people who have part of the system who have empathy, can't do anything or won't do anything. It's a fucked up.

It's just the craziest shit. So the next day, Holmes goes to see more and he offers some $1,400. And again, he's like, no, I'm not selling. And off his wife goes and his kids. And after a month, he Thomas writes a letter to LaCilla in Tuscaloosa and he gets no answer. Couple months later, he writes another one, no answer.

And then he gets, he's suspicious. He's like, maybe they're not giving her the letters. So he gets a white guy writing under his name to see if he will get a response. There's no answer. So then he gets Holmes to write the postmaster in Tuscaloosa and ask, what's up? The postmaster in Tuscaloosa and ask What's up the postmaster writes back and says there's no person named Moore

In Tuscaloosa that guy doesn't live here and he never slipped here So the guy bought them and lied about where he lived and where he was going right right He's very grateful to have homes as you know to be home slaves opposed to other people and he said at heart he's an abolitionist. He had inherited most of his slaves. He said their bondage was nominal. He had he didn't even live on the plantation. Holmes put another slave in charge of the plantation to run. And that guy managed it, and then we just send the profits to home.

So essentially, the slaves were just doing the thing on this plantation, having the best life. Still horrible, but just better. That they could have under the circumstances, right? Like that's what we're talking about. Yeah, right. So Thomas starts leading religious services for slaves. He's got a really good speaking voice.

He's got a powerful speaking voice. And now he's super into, you know, religion and converting people. He starts inviting local slaves to services. He's holding a meeting one night and a patrol shows up. So a patrol is what became cops. There's two kinds of cops. There's the cops from the north which were protect property and there's the cops in the south who were what are the slaves doing. Let's beat them and kill them. And we sort of formed, we've sort of brought the best of all of that together. That's right.

We've put it into one thing. Yeah, so the patrols are the origin of police departments. So what they would do is they would cruise around at night looking for slaves off their plantations without permission or holding religious meetings without permission. And they're allowed to whip the slaves who are breaking the rules. So this patrol shows up and they're obviously freaked out. And the leader is a guy named Captain Pope and he goes up to Thomas and he goes, are there any strange Negroes inside? And Thomas said, my master allows these meetings. And he also also said tell anyone who interfered

That he can take care of his own plantation and he doesn't need anybody doing anything like this And then Thomas tells a boy he that's there. He goes run to the master's house and Get him and bring him and when the patrol heard this they took off So when Thomas learned wow when when Holmes learns what happens, he goes to Captain Pope and he says, keep your fucking patrol off my plantation. Your patrol never goes on my plantation again. You're forbidden. It's also strange that a Pope is trying to break up any religious ceremonies. Right. That's the... Yeah. Okay. so he's, I mean, that's, it's strange. It's strange.

He's protecting the people the best you can, I guess. That's what it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah, right. I mean, yeah. Tom is really super appreciated homes because he had had the opposite, right? He had had Jones.

He already knew what the worst was. Yeah. homes because he had had the opposite right he had Jones he already knew what the worst was. Yep. On another occasion Thomas goes to a meeting on some of his plantation he's walking there and the patrol stops him and they go when he'd your pass and Thomas forgot his pass. So they ordered him to take off his shirt and they timed to a trade and they whip in 15 times because that's what they could do by law. What a fucking crazy... Oh my god. Crazy. 15 hits by law.

Random white assholes by law can whip someone if they don't have a note. It's the fucking craziest shit. It's just the evil of the church. The evil is just off the fuck. It's just strange to regulate evil. Yeah every single Hit drew blood So then after he got whipped he goes to the meeting still Thomas quote we had a really good meeting that day Wow

So four years have passed since his wife were taken away and he's like, I don't want to live alone anymore. And he's back on the market. He's looking for a lady. He meets and falls in love with Mary Moore. And he pays $48 a year to her owner to be able to... So she's basically free, essentially. I mean, not completely, but he's like leasing her, I guess is how you look at it. So he does have for three years. He pays for her to be able to do what she wants. They have a kid who's a slave because his mom's, right, his mom's a slave. So if you're born to a mother who's a slave, you're owned by the guy that owns the mother.

Okay. But he can't, he's like, I can't lose another wife. I can't fucking go through this again. So he starts saving up money with the goal of buying his wife. So they make a box and they put a hole in the top and they just put money in it. Any extra money they have, five cents a dollar, whatever.

They just keep putting money inside the box. Now white patrols would swing by whenever they wanted, so they dug a hole and hid the box in it. He is always worried that when he dropped a coin in the box, someone would hear it and steal it. After 20 months, they take the box out of the ground and they open it up. It's short. They need $350 to buy her.

I don't know how short it was, but it's short. So he goes to a white friend. And the white friend loans Thomas the rest of the money and he buys his wife. So she's now free. It's just that's very hard to regulate emotionally where you feel about something like that, but obviously it's good, but it's also like.

I mean, they're small, like within the system of horrifying oppression, they're small victories, they're small victories, you know, they're just are. So now they can have kids and those kids are free. So that is the relief of that. How many essentially he's broken the cycle that his parents were like, we can't, our kids will be taken away.

He's broken that cycle. So they have three kids that are free children. So they have one child that is not free and three that are free. He's still saving money. And now he decides he wants to buy property. But the problem is a black eye can't own property. Right. So he gets a white guy to do. Yeah, well, you can't just let anyone own anything in this era, Dave. Good Lord. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, what would that mean? That would mean... So, let me get this straight. You own me, I can't own a house.

That's right. Pfft. Yes. I told you not to open Jumanji, didn't I? So, yes, a white guy knows to buy the property. So, this white guy, he gives the white guy money, the guy buys his cabin and two other houses. But they have to be in the white guy's name because Thomas can own property. So in the winter of 1848, a woman comes and tells Thomas that

some men are plotting to take Mary and the kids and enslave them again. Oh, shit. Because that's just like free money to them, right? If they can grab her and hustle her off to Kentucky and sell her, then it's all fine. So she's like, you gotta get out of the South, you gotta get them out of the South, get them to a free state in the North as quick as you can.

Thomas goes to a lawyer and he's like, my family's not safe, and he goes, look, they're not going to be unless the legislature specifically emancipates them. And this guy, this lawyer is a member of the House of Representatives in the state. So he puts a bill forward in the legislature to just get Mary and her kids emancipated and the legislature is like, fuck off. We're absolutely, that's crazy. And some guys are like pissed. Like, what are you doing? Come on. Come on. This is not how we do things. Where? Why? So Thomas is now Super determined to get them north. He's like I'm getting them north

He's working on loading ships and he's keeping his eye out for Someone will help him out And then he comes across a captain who says he'll take him to New York So he takes them to the ship in the middle of the night He pays the captain $25. And then he goes and sits in the dock until sunset when he sees the ship pull out and leave. And then he has to wait days, right? He's in total terror because you fucking putting your family, black people on a fucking anything that happened to yeah there's no laws they're gonna fucking have them um but then he has a friend in Brooklyn and that Brooklyn sends word that his

family arrived and they're staying with Robert H. Cousins um and no slave holders are gonna trouble him he tells Mary to write to him to make it seem like she was just on a trip and would could come back. This was in case, this the part where gets a little confusing was this is a place where his owner, in case his owner asked about her, Holmes, Holmes, I think it's Holmes. Thomas thought his owner would be angry if he knew that his family left. Okay. And because he knew that his family left. And because he knew that Thomas would try to escape. Right, okay. So he goes and he goes to the guy who wants his houses.

He goes and he just sells the houses and I need money. And the white guy's like, nah. And so for three months, he goes, I need money. And the guy's like, yeah, it's mine. So what do you gonna do? Nice. So he's been totally conned. At this point he has to go see his owner every day,

because he believes Thomas is gonna run away. So, he wants to see him every day, so he knows he hasn't fled. But, then, Holmes becomes ill, and he's really sick and bad, and Thomas is like, this is my shot. So he goes to a ship and he makes a deal with a ship steward to stow him away, right? Hide him on board and it's a ship headed for New York. And he pays the guy $8, which is all the money he had.

So he puts him in the hole, but the hole is full of turpentine. So after a day, he's like, I'm actually going to die. Yeah. Oh God. And the steward takes him out because he's like, okay, quote, in a state of great weakness and stowed be way in one of the state rooms, but it didn't take long for the captain to find him. And the captain to find them and the captain's like i'm gonna charge you a bigger on a slave

really smells like turpentine also what do you be but doing the strong strong turpentine smell coming from here are we taking paint off uh... he tells he tells tomas he's gonna send him back the first chance he gets. So the same day the captain says that a huge storm hits and for days one wins, wins just push the ship off course.

Thomas should have been like, I told it, don't fuck with me, I told you. Yeah, yeah, you should have standard it, like you stood at the hall and just been like, I command you! This turpentine man has the power of the seas. So during that time that the ship was sort of drifting, he tries to ingratiate himself, he cooks for the crew. And then when the storm finally subsides, they make for ports. Shoot. Tastes a lot like turpentine, doesn't it? My can't taste a lot like turpentine doesn't it?

my dad just tasted a lot of turpentine in this studio. Why is Tom passed out? And blue. Why did he ring the bell and said it's turpentime? So the the English ship off New York, it's about a mile off shore. Okay. He's super on edge that the captain's gonna send him back

to the south. And the captain and the first mate get in a little dinghy and they go to shore to do business. And Thomas is like, this is my fucking chance. So he stood, sorry, very quickly, very quickly. When he said they get into a little dinghy, I thought that was, I was like, so they get into an argument. I was like, this little sort of ding up fight.

They get in a little dinghy. Okay. All right, so they go to shore for some business. So Thomas looks around and gets like loose boards that are around on the ship. And he gathers them up and he ties them together. Uh-huh. This guy's fucking relentless. You're not gonna stop him.

I mean, it's unreal. It's unreal. You're not stopping this guy. Yeah, it is unreal. So he ties together these planks and then uses it as a raft and starts paddling. He gets about a quarter of the distance to the shore and then one of the mates or crewman or whoever, the guy who's in charge of the ship sees him and starts pursuing him in the

boat. And then Thomas realizes the ship's after him and he he starts waving his hat around. And a boat sees him and swings around and they ask if he's a slave and they're like do not be afraid. We are friends. We're going to protect you and he goes, yes, this is what's going on. I'm escaping. Right. So they take him on board

and the ship comes around and they tell the the maintenance charge that if he comes on board their ship, they're gonna be arrested and prosecuted. So the guy gives up. And then they take Thomas to shore, they take him to Robert Cousins' house where he's reunited

with his family. Quote, the meeting with my wife and children, I cannot describe. It was a moment of joy too deep and holy for any attempt to paint it. Holy shit, the stress. They fucked right? Oh, Dave. Dave. I mean, it's sexy time.

It's definitely. There's always got to be a sex and in the movie I would imagine it Wow, I don't I don't it's just enjoy the moment So days later he He preaches in Brooklyn And now he everyone's like always shit this guy can fucking preach and he goes on like a preaching tour Everyone's like, oh, shit, this guy can fucking preach. And he goes on like a preaching tour. His story is one that Appalachianists want to get out.

So preaching also leads to, so when he preaches in a church, people give him donations. And so he starts making decent money for his family. But then he's there for a little while and then the fugitive slave law has passed. So he can once again be captured. So he's not safe and a bunch of his friends are in the same boat.

So they head north to Canada, which is British territory, where they are safe. He stays there for four years. And in 1854, he comes back to America. He said when John Brown was hung at Harper's Ferry for, quote, so-called treason, I felt that I could discern the beginning of the end. At this point, he's a very popular abolitionist speaker. He wrote his life story in the book The Experience of Thomas Jones, and he spoke at the 1859 New England-Colored Citizens Convention in Boston and urged black Americans to militantly strike for liberty. In 1854, what he was 84, sorry, when he was 84 he died in 1890.

As a free did. God, damn. God, there's so much. I can't do that. Oh, there's just no way. That's like, that's not, I mean, there's so, that is the will that, I mean, I have even said it before. I mean, you'll just kind of be like,

yeah, whatever, it's my time, whatever. You know what I mean? It's like the fact that he, I mean, there's just so much to that. There's so much horrible to the system that he had to fight against, got betrayed by, and still was able to make his way through. And yeah, I mean, there's a couple people

who just weren't the world's biggest assholes who kind of gave like a lily pad here and there, but that is just the story of someone who just like had the fight that just, you just, you need that. I mean, that's so important to the, to breaking systems. I mean, there's so many, there's so much stuff that's applicable to that, but it almost

belittles the will and the courage of an individual to even try to make comparisons and shit like that. It's just a relentless pursuit of freedom and justice that just, I don't know, I don't, I don't know. It's crazy. Crazy. Crazy. I mean, look, I wanted to do this episode because of what they're doing in Florida, and they're going to do in all the Southern states. Yeah. Because the vein of the Mr. Jones is still alive there.

But like, you know, passing these, passing these, you know, approval of fucking school books that say that, you know, passing these, passing these, you know, approval of fucking school books that say that, you know, slaves were fine and learned shit is you are the craziest, most evil asshole that can be around. Like, you are a vile fucking evil monster if you want that to be in history book Yeah, I mean it's it like when you will you listen to the will and the fight of someone like that and you're like so those Legislatures are those people Can't Their fight is so little that they can't just allow a story to be told. They don't even have the spine for that, where this guy does all that.

They don't want, well, number one, they want to be above everybody else. That's white supremacy, but also like, how dare anybody say anything bad about white people? I mean, that's really what they're fucking getting. Yeah. How dare you? Well, there's been that attitude a lot. I mean, the amount of times when, you know, whenever reparations or things like that get sort of brought up, and, you know, I mean, like people like Mitch McConnell, who will just be like, well, I look, I didn't hold slaves. So why should I have to pay for, you know, it's just, there

is a constant. And again, I mean, I even remember when I was going through school sort of hearing versions of it where it's like, let's just move on, let's just move on. And clearly that is not the plan because clearly white people still have just such major issues with it, and it's sort of humming to a new direction when you want to portray slavery as beneficial to some slaves, which is just, would seem impossible, and yet here we are, where that is going to be something that is comfortably taught. Well, in this story, in this story, there is a woman, she's a slave, she actually has skills, and that leads to her being separated from her husband forever.

Yeah, right. Like that, there's your fucking skills, that's where that led her. Yeah, what is the, what is, and also in this story is, again, this is how you know that it is purely race-based. Because if you wanted, you could frame this story as the will of freedom of an American. But that will never be, that won't be what it is because he's black.

And because that just, it is. It is the constant hold in this country to just pretend the original sin was just not even the original sin. But just to pretend that this was not only okay, not only in the past, but now kind of a positive. It's so fucking gross, man. Yeah, it's unreal.

I hope you're happy. And it's a lot like what I went through for the Barbie film. It is a lot like that for sure Yeah, it's very similar The idea that the idea that because I went to that movie and I threw Barbie on a grill and all the sudden people are telling me that that That was something that was I literally was a slave of YouTube for about two days There you go there you go. We did it. Did you do sources? Oh, well, the sources

have. Oh, well, there you go. Yeah, the experience of Thomas H. Jones. Man crazy what an amazing one an amazing man. I don't know what I feel but real real cocktail of emotion over here. I mean we all know what it is. It's okay for two white dudes to talk about it. It's okay for two black dudes to talk about it. It's okay for everybody fucking talk about it. As long as you're not saying it's fine and they learn skills and shit. Like it's okay for everybody to fucking talk about it. Oh yeah. Well, I mean this is that this truly is the the only way to, you know, I mean, it's what this podcast has done for people and we go do shows, they talk about it. I mean, you know, we, you know, I mean, it is. This is the stuff that actually matters.

And it's the only way, it's the only minor antidote to what you're talking about in Florida and what's coming for a lot of places is to, you know, fight the battle of information as best as you possibly can because they're just here to completely fucking brainwash and that is the goal. And so the more people that talk about it, the better, because about it the better because that's the only way to like try to hold on to it. Yeah. Alright, there you go. Can I get it? Good night, good night, Gareth.