THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Attachment Styles EXPLAINED: Which One Are You?

Episode Date: April 12, 2025

👇 SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL - so this show can reach more people 👇 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIprGZAdzn3ZqgLmDuibYcw?sub_confirmation=1 Click Link Below to Subscribe to my email list to MAXOUT your life (all value, no fluff) https://konect.to/edmylett Are you showing up as your real self… or just who you think you should be? In this Mashup episode, I get raw with Thais Gibson, John Kim, Christina Pazsitzky, and Dr. Marisa G. Franco as we peel back the curtain on something that shapes every relationship you’ve ever had: your attachment style. And let me tell you, this isn’t just a theory—it’s the rulebook you’ve been unknowingly using your whole life to give and receive love. For years, I believed I was great at loving others but struggled to feel love myself—and for the first time, I understood why. Thais Gibson lays the groundwork for understanding the four core attachment styles: Secure, Anxious, Dismissive Avoidant, and Fearful Avoidant. She breaks down how childhood experiences shape our subconscious patterns and shows us how we can rewire them to build healthier relationships—with others and ourselves. I shared with Thais how my upbringing with an alcoholic parent shaped my own attachment behaviors—and she nailed it. That pattern of giving love but not receiving it? Classic fearful avoidant. John Kim takes it even further. We talked about the difference between your pseudo self and your solid self—and how most of us live outside-in, searching for validation, instead of from within. I told him about the moment I realized I didn’t really know myself. Not liking yourself doesn’t start with hate—it starts with never taking time to meet you. Christina Pazsitzky brings incredible vulnerability and grit to the conversation. She opens up about growing up between a mentally ill mother and an alcoholic father, and how comedy became her survival tool. Her story is a testament to the resilience built through suffering—and why boundaries, self-awareness, and healing are the keys to reclaiming your power. Dr. Marisa Franco ties it all together, explaining how our attachment style doesn't just affect romance, but friendships and business too. If you’ve ever asked why people pull away or why connection feels out of reach—this is the truth you’ve been waiting for. Key takeaways from this episode: - What the four attachment styles are and how they shape your relationships - How your childhood patterns show up in your adult life - The difference between your “pseudo self” and “solid self” - Why so many high performers struggle to feel love even if they give it freely - Practical steps to reprogram core fears and shift to secure attachment - Why self-awareness is the foundation for deeper connection—with others and yourself - How unresolved attachment wounds sabotage your growth if left unchecked If you’re ready to stop living from patterns and start choosing your life, this episode is your wake-up call. The transformation doesn’t come from changing your partner, your job, or your situation—it starts with getting honest about you. Thank you for watching this video—Please Share it and get the word out! 👇 SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL👇 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIprGZAdzn3ZqgLmDuibYcw?sub_confirmation=1 ▶︎ Visit My WEBSITE | https://www.EdMylett.com #EdMylett #Motivation Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is The Ed Mylet Show. Hey everyone, welcome to my weekend special. I hope you enjoy the show. Be sure to follow The Ed Mylet Show on Apple and Spotify. I hope you enjoy the show. Be sure to follow the Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. I was just telling this lady that off camera that her works really made a profound impact on me even in the last few days of my life. Her name is Thais Gibson. So Thais, welcome

to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really grateful to be here with you. Let's step back just for a second. And because there's, tell us what attachment style is. We'll get into the four types in a minute. And then also where it comes from. I was really struck about this one parent thing that you talk about. So what is an attachment style in general and where does it come from?

And then we'll talk about what the ones are. Perfect. So our attachment style is basically the subconscious set of rules that we've learned about how to give and receive love and really what to expect in relationships. are. Perfect. So, so our attachment style is basically the subconscious set of rules that we've learned about how to give and receive love and really what to expect in relationships. And I often give people the analogy that if you have a different attachment style than somebody else, it's like sitting down to play a board game and you have the rules for a monopoly and I have the rules for Scrabble. Like even if we want to have fun and play the game, we're just going to

have unnecessary friction and confusion because we have different rules. So our attachment style, which first of all, every single person has one is the set of rules that we've had for love. So when we have different rules, it creates a lot of problems and challenges, but also three of the four styles are insecurely attached. And that makes for some difficult strategies and points of communication so there's a lot that we can really improve there and become securely attached and that will help create a lot of transformation. Isn't there the theory or your theory is that it comes from some sort of dynamic with one of your parents primarily? Am I right about that? Am I getting that? Exactly correct.

So basically you learn how to give and receive love through your parents as a whole. Like those are our first subconscious programs we develop in regards to what love looks like, how our needs are met, how our emotions should be treated, how we should be spoken to in relationships. All of that is modeled to us at a very young age. And the three ways we really pick up programming from a very young age are what we see repetitively or what's modeled to us, what we hear repeatedly and what our firsthand experiences are. So those relationships we have with our caregivers as children really form that strong foundation for exactly how we expect love

and relationships to go in our adult life. See, I told you off camera, I think the reason your work is so profound and this conversation today will be everybody is Self-awareness is such a powerful tool to have in your life And by the way, my favorite people that I like to have around me. I think have a heightened self-awareness They've done some work on that But the reason this works contextually what we're about to cover everybody is you're really going to begin to understand yourself what we're about to cover everybody is you're really going to begin to understand yourself so well and why you feel or don't feel loved when you're in a relationship and it could be an intimate relationship or a friendship and then also how to give it to the right person

at the same time so that they can feel it. I've often said on the show, not often, I've said a couple times, that I think I'm... And this is a confession that was, I don't know, painful to admit, but in my case, I think I'm pretty good at giving love to other people. I think in my life, I've been pretty good to my friends and family, but I have struggled to allow myself the gift of feeling it. And I want to more. And I think the last few years, that's improved to some extent, but you nodded when I said that. Do you hear that often or do you relate to that?

I knew the moment you shared about your childhood. So, so as I had mentioned to you off camera, I had seen some of your videos before doing speaker training. And actually once I listened to was a beautiful story about having a parent who was an alcoholic. And basically that's most likely to create a fearful avoidant attachment style. And fearful avoidance are renowned. This is actually what I was as well before doing the work.

Fearful avoidance are renowned for being very loving, very giving, show up 10 out of 10 for people in times of crisis, emergency, really good at rolling with a punch is very resilient, but also actually have a hard time truly being vulnerable about the things that are deeply vulnerable to them, specifically relying on people, letting people in deeply, feeling like they can really trust that somebody will always be there for them. And so it's like you over give and under receive and that's very fearful of what and so as soon as you said that I was like that probably would be par for the course so that's why I nodded. Dawn, you're right. I started to read your work.

I'm like, yep, that one's me. And by the way, one thing she says, we're gonna go through it now too, that I love is, this isn't necessarily a static thing either. And so just, it's so great. So let's take our time on this because I think just this right here, if someone could understand themselves or others,

is an invaluable lesson that will actually could alter the direction of your life and the bliss that you feel in your life, the joy, the love that you feel. So what are the four attachment styles and take your time on each one. And if you want to, um, describe the behaviors that go with them, cause that's what helped me, the style. And then the behaviors I think is, uh, I think everybody right now, if you're driving, you're going to want to probably go back and listen to this again, because you're gonna, you're gonna wanna probably go back and listen to this again

because you're gonna wanna write this down. Okay, perfect. So the first of four is our securely attached style. And this is the one that we ideally wanna become. Because as you've just mentioned, our attachment style, it's not like a personality disorder or a diagnosis. It's basically just a set of programs that you have about love.

So this is something we can change. Now the securely attached style gets a lot of what we call approach oriented behaviors in childhood. And approach oriented behavior psychologically means that when a child cries or expresses emotion caregivers go towards that child and they are very attuned, very present. They are able to try to soothe the child. I know that sounds like it might be a small thing, but it actually has a massive impact because what a child learns growing up in this kind of environment is it's safe to express emotion. It's safe to rely on other people. My needs are worthy of being met and listened to, and I can really trust other individuals to look out for me, to take care of me. So securely attached individuals grow up to essentially have really healthy modeling and

skills for relationships. And as a result, statistically, they report being in the longest lasting relationships, but I'm sure we can both agree that that's not what we would call a thriving relationship per se. Sec, securely attached individuals also report being happiest in their relationships. They report actually feeling really happy and fulfilled by the romantic partner. So that's our securely attached style. There are three insecurely attached styles.

At one end of the continuum, in a sense, there's the anxious attachment style. Now the anxious individual grows up with a lot of inconsistency in childhood, but often loving and fairly present caregivers when they are with that parent. So generally what you'll see is an anxious attachment style may have love and very caring parents, but perhaps they work a lot. So it's like love is there, love is taken away.

Love is there, love is taken away. Now neuroplastically, we get conditioned through repetition and emotion. So this will fire and wire these deep-rooted fears of, okay, love keeps getting taken away, am I gonna be abandoned? Does this happen with divorced parents too, where you go to one loving parent to another loving parent, or would that be different? That would be an exact example.

So I'm just giving one example, but that could be one. It could also be that we have a very loving parent, but another parent who's much more inconsistent or a little bit withdrawn. So the juxtaposition of love there, love not really there in the same way. All of those things would create the consistency of inconsistency, which is that overarching theme that will create an anxious attachment style. So anxious attachment cells then grow up to have these big core wounds in relationships. They fear being abandoned, alone, rejected, disliked, excluded, and they basically cope with these fears by trying to maintain proximity.

So your anxious attacher is often the person who will call repeatedly, text many, many times, move very fast in relationships, really derive a lot of their sense of self-esteem and self-confidence through their relationships rather than through a relationship with self. And they often will get caught people pleasing a lot, sometimes be boundaryless in relationships. And of course, unfortunately, a lot of these things become self-fulfilling prophecies. So because they hold on so tightly, they often accidentally push people away and exactly what they're afraid of usually comes to fruition. I can hear millions of people nodding their heads right now.

Thinking about themselves. Starting to explain yourself to you, didn't you? If you're in that category, everybody. Okay, please keep going. I just think this is just so good. Thank you and at the other end of the continuum is the dismissive avoidant attachment style. So they're very much the opposite of the anxious in many different ways. The dismissive avoidance overarching theme from childhood is childhood emotional neglect. Now I think when a lot of us think of neglect, we think of like the child's left in the corner, there's no food on the table. Oftentimes, I would say 95% plus of the time, it's very covert neglect.

It's things like having parents in the household, there's structure, there's stability, food's on the table, kids are at school on time. But if you express an emotion, go in the other room, come back when you're done crying or don't be a crybaby or that's embarrassing. Don't cry in front of other people, hold it together. And the constant messaging, which creates that programming, that repetition and emotion that fires and wires those narrow pathways, that constant programming or messaging the child

receives is your emotions. They're dysfunctional. They're defective. We don't really want them here because a child is wired for attunement. All of us biologically are wired for attunement and closeness. A child doesn't know how to make sense of that experience and they don't go, Oh, my parents emotionally unavailable. Cause they can't conceive of that yet. So they go, there must be something wrong with me. This part of me must be defective and shameful and wrong at the core because it just constantly gets rejected.

So they cope or adapt to that kind of experience by going, okay, I am literally going to just keep myself very distant from people emotionally, never open up, never allow myself to get seen or feel too much or feel anything too real. Now as adults, the dismissal avoidant ends up often being in a relationship. Things are good early on and as soon as things feel too serious, they often drop out, leave very abruptly, sometimes blindside somebody and their big core fears in relationships are, I'm defective, something's wrong with me at my core. So they're very sensitive to criticism, even though they're very stoic

and most people would never know. And they also feel afraid of being unsafe emotionally if they're too open, afraid of being weak, disrespected, not capable, if they're vulnerable. They have a lot of these deep wounds. And so they often are individuals who struggle a lot with commitment, with settling into relationships and with wanting to really let people in and allow themselves to be seen much at all.

So good. I'm just thinking of somebody that I know very well right now. What's great about the way you describe the attachment styles is that everybody right now is either so far thought of themselves or a very close friend they know that fit one of these attachment styles. I just want to say one thing too before we get to the last one or the next one. I know that the nature of your work, everybody listening to this, is sort of romantic relationships, but I have to tell you all, when I read this, I actually have thought about friendships that I've had. I actually think about business and leading people and understanding the way in which they respond or won't respond.

I think the application of her work is very, very broad and understanding human beings and how to affect them and how to connect with them or understanding why you're not connecting with somebody. So, but anyway, continue please. And to your point, I couldn't agree more. This is because our relationships, it's primarily first a relationship to ourselves. So that goes with us everywhere, but you'll see these patterns popping up absolutely in the workplace with friendships, family, everything. So the last attachment style, this is what I was, and I'm sure this is probably what you are from the sound of it or were, but basically the last attachment style is called fearful avoidant. And sometimes it's referred to as disorganized attachment style. And basically, often the example I actually give for what will form a disorganized attachment style

would be an example of somebody having a parent who's an addict or an alcoholic. It can also be things like having a really bad divorce and being parentified. That was a lot of my experience. Parents went through this 15 year divorce. I was always in the middle of it at a young age, lots of chaos, lots of really big fights happening my whole childhood. But basically what this is creating in terms of programming is I never know what I'm going to get. Sometimes I have these positive experiences with love where sometimes love is safe and it's okay

and I yearn for it. And so I care about love and I want to connect, but other times love is scary, unpredictable, had moments of cruelty perhaps. And so what happens with a fearful avoidant in their childhood is they learn to have these basically extreme competing associations about love that are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

I want love and it can be really scary. Love can be beautiful sometimes, terrifying others. And so what happens for a fearful avoidant attachment style is growing up in an environment that's really unstable and predictable, chaotic. They basically learn, I have this anxious side, and they share in the feelings of the anxious attachment style. They can fear abandonment. They can fear being rejected or not good enough, but they also share in the feelings of the anxious attachment style. They can fear abandonment. They can fear being rejected or not good enough, but they also share in the avoidance side. They fear being too close, being trapped, helpless, powerless in the wrong situation. And so fearful avoidance basically are very hot and cold in relationships.

They're kind of pinballing back and forth. And for me, as an example, I grew up feeling like I wanted to be close to people. I would be very loving and generous and giving. And then when people would get too close, I would be like, get back. And oftentimes, the fearful avoidance flip flops back and forth. And a lot of this is because of those deep inner wired programs from childhood of, okay, love is good, but love is also scary. And it can create a lot of that sort of internal push, pull, and

confusion, which of course often shows up in external relationships as a result. It's so great. We're talking a lot about childhood here, and the more and more I've been doing the work I do the last 25 or 30 years, the more I realize the vast majority of the work we're all doing is connected to our childhood. Just the vast majority of our work we're all doing is connected to our childhood. Like just the vast majority of our work is those, I don't know those years were, you know, from infancy to 10, 12, 15 years old and beyond even to the teenage years. And I think the more you dive into that work, the more you are going to be an effective parent, an effective human, an effective friend, effective business person. You say in the book, 95% of your thoughts and behaviors originate in your subconscious

mind. So basically our lives are on this auto pilot program. Then you also talk about the subconscious reality lens. I'm just curious as to what that term, I think I know, but not everyone's read the book. What does that mean and why does it matter that we have an appreciation or understanding of that? Yeah, that's a great question. So we all see reality through a filter of our past, right?

So I often give the example that somebody could have the exact same external experience. We could take, for example, an anxious attachment style and a dismissive, who's the more avoidant one, and they could both be dating, let's say, somebody who doesn't call them back. Well, the anxious attachment style, because we see through the filter of our past programming, it's really the lens that we see and interact with the world through, they're probably going to make it mean I'm about to be abandoned,

because that's their past experience. Those are the conclusions the mind will jump to. Whereas a dismissive avoidant attachment style, they're probably going to make it mean, I'm free. I don't have to talk on the phone because they often fear too much vulnerability, too much closeness. So we never really have these objective points of view. We're all living through this subjective worldview that's first being conditioned by and wired in by our pre-existing programs from childhood.

Now, one thing that's really important to recognize is that our mind is also wired from a survivalistic perspective to hang on to negative things much more than positive things. If you are walking through a forest tomorrow and you see a bear and you run away and you're safe, but the following day you have to go back through the same path. You don't think, oh, yesterday I saw such a pretty tree next to the bear and there was such a pretty flower on the floor. You remember the bear and its teeth. So we're wired to hang on to more negative experiences, especially when they impact us

emotionally because we think that by holding on, we then have a better chance to protect ourselves from them, which is why we hold onto our negative experiences from childhood. And then to keep ourselves safe, although it doesn't happen emotionally, we constantly reproject them back out onto our external world. We'll jump to those conclusions. We'll assume those same patterns will happen with other people in relationships. And that's often the actual place that we end up sabotaging relationships from if we have unresolved childhood attachment challenges from a younger age. I think you also repeat those patterns to stay consistent with yourself. In other words, if I don't consistently do this, I'm somehow not being the me that I'm familiar with and that's a scary change in and of itself. Do you agree with that?

There's a lot of research to back this. I actually talk about this all the time. I couldn't agree more. Our subconscious mind works very hard to maintain its comfort zone because to your point, it says, well, what's familiar is safe and thus I'm more likely to survive. And something that's so interesting is you'll see when people meet each other. So our conscious mind takes up to about 40 to 60 bits per second of data. And our subconscious and unconscious collectively take up to a billion bits per second of data.

So we may meet somebody and be like, you know, we're picking up all this web of information about their micro expressions, their body language, their tone of voice, how long they maintain eye contact for. And people are often choosing people who will mirror back to them their childhood as well, because that's what's most familiar. So if you look at an anxious attachment style, they're so externally focused, they're so people pleasing everybody else, they're dismissing and avoiding themselves. So guess who we often choose? People who mirror back to us the relationship to self first

because that's what's most familiar and thus most safe. And so anxious attachment cells will often choose emotionally unavailable people. Hence that cycle will continue for their likelihood of being abandoned. Outstanding. I'm thinking of one of the other applications I wanna ask you about.

So obviously you're in a romantic or intimate relationship with somebody. One of the things, I was thinking about this reading this yesterday, one of the main questions I get, and I bet you get too, is people that are in relationships together, they'll say, how do I get my spouse, my boyfriend or my girlfriend to support my dream or this change I want to make. And I started reading these different attachment styles and I'm like, well, if you could really have an understanding of the attachment style of your partner, that would certainly help you understand how to help them support your dream, help them support this business you want to start.

Do you agree with that? Like if you've got an abandonment issue and somebody says, I'm going to start a business or start to pursue a dream. I have to think part of their thinking is if you, if you're successful, you're going to leave me. If we just stay the way that we are, you'll never leave me. And so one of their, their real fears is, well, if you start to win and change and grow, you're going to leave me.

And so if I knew that I would think if I was in a relationship with that person, I would want to be overly reassuring that I'm going to stay that I'm going to be here that we're going to build this dream together that I'm doing this for us. Do you see what I'm saying? Do you agree with that? 100% So a big part of what we focus on actually in this work and people hear it in the book too is again to your point, it's that each attachment cell not only has these core fears, but they also have these core needs. And if you imagine, you know, if you've ever heard of the work of Dr. Gary Chapman, Dr. Gary Chapman talks about the five love languages. And he says, okay, they are words of affirmation, physical touch, quality time, acts of service and gifts.

Now I would make a very strong argument that our needs are much more impactful than love languages because for me, I, for example, have a huge quality time need or love language. But if I sit down and I watch Netflix with somebody for an hour, that's going to be way different than having like a deep conversation with somebody because that meets the need for emotional connection, for authenticity. And so, you know, our needs, in my opinion, have a much greater impact on the ways that we give and receive love in relationships.

And what happens is each unique attachment style has different needs. So anxious attachment styles, they need exactly like you said, they need more reassurance, they need more validation, encouragement, certainty, consistency, dismissive avoidance, they need more freedom, autonomy, independence, consistency. Dismissive avoidance, they need more freedom, autonomy, independence, but they also actually really need empathy, support, and acceptance, as well as appreciation about small things. And fearful avoidance tend to need a lot of depth.

They need novelty, exploration. They need growth. They also want this intimate connection and closeness, but they also want their freedom and independence, because they sort of share on both sides of that attachment continuum. So I always tell people, if we had a prescription for relationships, it would be know each other's needs

and relationships. And then when we go through these big life changes or transformation, you're building something, you're creating something, rather than somebody having to be like, oh, no, I want to stay familiar and safe and accidentally sabotaging the relationship as a result or having these protest behaviors or ways of acting out. It's like, well, if you know your partner's needs,

when we go through a big change, just pour into each other's needs during those times and it will strengthen the relationship and also ensure that you're growing together rather than growing apart. So good, I was thinking, I'm thinking a lot of different things, but one of them is you know, when you're understanding these attachment styles,

your own and that of your partner, helps you understand where resistance can be coming from. So I have to ask, what's the resistance that I'm getting from them? Why don't they want me to start this business? Why why is it they don't want me to go do this? And now you might have a deeper understanding of the reasoning behind, you know, not only their behaviors, but if you understand their behaviors and their needs, you understand where this resistance coming from. I wrote a term down just because I didn't understand if it was different than what I was reading. So this is just for my edification. What is integrated attachment theory? So integrated attachment theory is the science of how we can actually change to become securely attached.

We're not stuck with our attachment style. So it's actually the study of these, these five major places that we can do the work at a subconscious level so that we can become secure and have like the strengths that came out of having an insecure attachment style, because there are strengths we become resilient, resourceful, a lot more empathetic, more compassionate in a lot of ways, but also have wired in those healthy patterns of secure attachment. Can you elaborate on what some of those places are?

Yes. So the first one is we have to reprogram core fears. So we all have these core fears. Like we talk, we've talked about the abandonment or the fear of being trapped or defective or criticized. And so we can actually, we're not born with those fears. We can recondition them through leveraging the science of being trapped or defective or criticized. And so we can actually that we're not born with those fears. We can recondition them through leveraging the signs of neuroplasticity. So repetition and emotion fires and wires new ideas. And it's not through

something like affirmations. I'll sort of go down a rabbit hole here, just for you. But a lot of people will try to do affirmation. So let's say somebody, for example, has a core fear, I'm not good enough. You're not gonna really help yourself by saying, I'm good enough, I'm good enough, I'm good enough. I think it's a little bit futile. And the reason is because your conscious mind speaks language.

If I say to you, Ed, whatever you do, do not think of a chocolate chip cookie. Right. How did that go? So what happens is your conscious mind hears do not, but your subconscious actually speaks in emotion and in images. So nobody's waking up intentionally having these core fears. Nobody's saying, Oh, I'm going to tell myself I'm not good enough 47 times today and hope that I feel good. What's actually happening is these are

subconscious preexisting programs. So we have to speak to the subconscious mind to solve for them. So what I give people as an original tool to recondition these core fears that really are the big saboteurs of our relationships. I'll be abandoned. I'm not good enough. I'll be alone forever. These huge things that wreak havoc on our life and relationships is we start by number one, identifying the core fear in its opposite. Very simple. I'm not good enough, I am good enough. Number two, we need 10 pieces of memory

of times we did feel good enough. And the reason we have memory and the reason we picked 10 is because we need a repetition for firing and wiring. And memory is just container for emotions and images. If somebody recounts their favorite childhood memory, maybe it's them playing on the playground. What do you see? The images of the slide. As you tell the story, you smile, your body language shifts and changes. So now we're using our conscious mind to speak to our subconscious mind. Step three, we record it for 20 and listen back to it for 21 days because it takes about 21 days to fire and wire these new strong neural pathways.

And as long as we have like 10 pieces of proof for how we feel good enough, or why we're worthy of connection instead of abandonment, or we're lovable instead of unlovable, or whatever the core wound is that we're targeting, 10 pieces of evidence, listen back for 21 days, we will actually rewire these ideas that we've carried about ourselves in relationships

for very long periods of time. So that's the first one. So is reprogramming these core fears. And I'm sure anybody listening, if they're like, Oh, 21 days, it feels like a lot. I would really encourage anybody listening to think of how many times that core fear has actually sabotaged your relationships. And it will always be more work not to do the work. It's, it's a lot to have to live like that.

Yeah. You built those neural pathways, probably doing it for 21 work. It's a lot to have to live like that. Yeah. You built those neural pathways, probably doing it for 21 years. You can spend 21 days trying to undo it. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And it only takes like five minutes of the morning routine or something. It's very simple.

So, so the second one is we need to learn our own needs. And so, you know, I mentioned those earlier, you know, for some people, they need the reassurance, the validation, the certainty for other people, they need the autonomy, the acknowledgement, the independence. So when we can go back and actually see what our our needs are, according to our attachment style, we actually first have to learn to meet them ourselves. There's there's a great quote from Dr. Gabor Maté, and he says, Trauma are the things that happen that shouldn't have happened. Okay,

so let's say verbal abuse, for example, which would maybe cause somebody to feel, I am not good enough. And we have those core fears, but it's also the things that didn't happen. That should have happened. So this could be, if somebody gets neglected growing up, we're wired for attunement. So we will have these deeply unmet needs that come from trauma, whether it's small T trauma or big T trauma. And because of the subconscious comfort zone, because we want to keep that subconscious comfort zone alive in the relationship to self, we keep those needs unmet in our own lives first. So you'll see like dismissive avoidance, they're neglected. And what do they do? They grow up and

they neglect their own emotions. And so, you know, we see this time and time again for each person. So our step two is after we reprogram core fears, number two, we learn to meet our own needs. In doing this, if we can show up and meet a need that's deeply unmet every day for 21 days, we actually will change that within ourselves. And then what will happen is we will be attracted to the right people who will mirror that back to us. Because our point of familiarity, our own subconscious comfort zone has now shifted. So we don't keep attracting those old patterns, those old people who will keep that self-fulfilling prophecy alive. So that's really step two, identify your deeply unmet needs, meet them in relationship to self for 21 days. Step three, very simple, a little nervous system regulation because every insecure attachment style is often sitting too much in fight or flight or parasympathetic nervous system mode.

So a little breath work in the evening or a little meditation on a daily basis, just something for 20 minutes a day to help recondition our body so it follows our subconscious mind into feeling like it is safe to be in our body, it follows our subconscious mind into feeling like it is safe to be in our body, it is safe to be more present with ourselves. And again, it tends to come full circle and giving to ourselves those deeply unmet needs. Now those first three steps I like to think of as being in relationship to self. Okay. I'm doing the work on me first.

I'm removing my core fears. I'm meeting my own needs. I'm regulating the work on me first. I'm removing my core fears. I'm meeting my own needs. I'm regulating my nervous system. The second ones are out into relationship with others because healthy interdependency means I'm a master of the relationship to myself and I'm a master at being able to relate to, rely on, and be vulnerable with others. It's not one or the other. And so our second two steps are communicating our needs to others and allowing ourselves to receive them and having healthy boundaries so we can show and share

our true selves with other people. I often say to people when it comes to boundaries, when people don't set boundaries, they're like, no, boundaries are off. They're like a separation instead of a joining. But a boundary is you sharing the nose in your life. You're not connecting fully or truthfully by just sharing all the things you do like or that are great. You also have to say, hey, I don't like when this happens.

Hey, I don't like these things. Because that's you sharing without your mask. And so if we can do these five major things and really connect in a real honest way with ourselves first and then with others, That's how we move the needle from insecure to securely attached in a fairly short period of time and it will transform the relationship we have to ourselves and the relationships in all aspects of our lives. This is so good. A basic question, you cover it in the book. By the way, thank you for

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shipping on your order. That's q u i n c e dot com slash ed to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash ed. Very short intermission here folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Be sure to follow the Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. And really what we're gonna talk about today

is relationships and not just your relationships with other people, but also your relationship with yourself and how it impacts other people. And the man I have put in this seat today is so unique and so special. He is one of a kind. He's called the angry therapist, which if you meet him in person, he's not so angry. John Kim, John, welcome to the show, brother. First, thank you for calling me a man. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, I feel very blessed to be here and to create a dialogue for you.

Yeah, so I'm really grateful you're here. All right, let's get into it. We're gonna get into relationship stuff. Not just, I mean, a lot of it's gonna be boyfriend, girlfriend, significant other, whatever you wanna call it, but it's also the one with you. Yeah, that's the most important. Okay, so let's-

And the hardest. So you say this thing, self versus self, like uppercase versus lowercase. Let's just start there for a second. What does that mean? Oh man. I, you know, I'll start with the book before this was called I used to be miserable and true story.

And in my twenties, I was exchanging my truth for membership a lot. I grew up in LA and so I didn't have a relationship with self. I was living very outside in instead of inside out and it's really good that I wasn't successful then because I would have been you know the douchebag. It would have been very predictable story. I've got addiction in my blood. Me too. But yeah I had no relationship with self, no sense of self and so very approval seeking. And especially when it came to relationships and women

doing whatever I could to get the dopamine, to get the, you know, whatever it is, the sex, the love, the approval. And it wasn't until 35, went through a divorce, and at that point I had nothing. I lost my friends, had no money, I was broke. I just went on Craigslist, found a roommate and I was like, man, what do I do for a living? And I thought, okay, I want to start living a different life because I have nothing to lose because I have nothing. What would it be to actually now start to

live inside out instead of outside in? What would it look like actually now start to live inside out instead of outside in? What would it look like to maneuver more in my solid self? So when people say self, the S for me stands for solid. And what I mean by that is we all have a pseudo self. We all have a solid self. And I got them tattooed on my... These are all kind of like bookmarks of... They're dog-eared pages of my life, my tattoos.

And if you've seen the movie Fight Club, because I think it best explains this, These are all kind of like bookmarks of dog-eared pages of my life, my tattoos. And if you've seen the movie Fight Club, because I think it best explains this, at the end we realize, disclaimer, I'm gonna have to give away the ending to do my point, but at the end we realize it's one person, right? So there's Edward Norton and there's Brad Pitt. And Edward Norton doesn't have a sense of self, right? He's kind of like, you've seen the movie, right? In the beginning, he's just buying Ikea furniture and just like not sleeping, going to movies and all that. Meetings, and that's his pseudo self.

And then he collides with himself, which is Brad Pitt. And at first there's resistance, get away from me. I don't want to have anything to do with you. And then through that collision, he starts finding his solid self. And then because of that, he starts finding his solid self. And then because of that, he finds a movement, he's injected with passion, he becomes a leader, he gets to grow.

All these things happen, the whole character arc. And I think we all have the Edward Norton inside of us and we all have the Tyler Durden, I think was his name. Yeah, so good. And so the self to me is the solid self. It's what Marty Bowen in therapy school calls, well, maybe people call it the authentic self, you know? But I call it the solid self. Do you think that, let me ask you about that,

that outside in, inside out. Is outside in meaning you're trying to get external stuff to give you a feeling? Yes. So, okay. Yes. You're living based on things that are outside of self instead of living from a place of value, character, you know, stuff that isn't on the outside but is that is internal. If you don't have that, so by the way I told

you guys, here we go, we're three minutes in and it's already freaking great stuff, but if you are an outside in living person, does that mean you're probably going to have pretty hollow empty relationships? Or can you actually have an effective loving relationship if you don't even know who you are? Oh, I think the relationship would be lopsided because I think what you're bringing to the table is the cardboard cutout instead of like the human three-dimensional, right? And I think most of my life I was that cardboard cutout. If you are pulling from your pseudo self, which is the false version of you.

And by the way, no one's solid. I mean, you know, Jesus, Buddha, maybe, but like as humans, depending on who you're around, like if you're around your boss, you may be a little more pseudo. If you're with your kids, you're gonna be solid. If you're with different friends and stuff. But generally speaking, if you pull more from your solid self, what you're bringing to the

table is uniquely you. You're bringing your potential, you're bringing who you are, you're bringing the acceptance of your story. So a lot of pseudo self people rip out chapters and they're kind of false advertising and they pick out the good parts of their story and present themselves in a way that is attractive. I certainly still do that sometimes. Sure.

I think I'm loving this. So you do believe that it's a, because I think some people listen to this are like, shoot, I still do do that. You're saying everyone still does it a little bit. It's to the extent or the propensity you have to do it. It's when most of your days, most of your weeks, you're pulling from your pseudo self, that you're at your lowest frequency, that you're not bringing much to the table.

And so in that relationship, you're kind of a shell. You may be fancy, you may be funny, you may be good and bad or whatever, but your potential is low because your humanness isn't there. And what makes you unique is the solid self. How do you do that? So by the way, you came to becoming a therapist late in life, like you said, right? I'm a late bloomer, man. I, at 35, I did my first squat.

I looked like a pigeon. I was a guy with biceps and then no legs. You know what I'm talking about, no legs. Right. The beach workout. Found CrossFit at 35 after divorce. And I was a screenwriter, a failed screenwriter and put my wife at the time on a pedestal. So I revolved around her.

So when the marriage ended, I had no life, which is great because then you start, it's a black light, right? Yeah. It's like God says, this is what you have. Yeah. And so I found fitness and I found CrossFit and I was like, what is this? This is back, this is 12, 13 years ago when they were like flipping tires and alleyways and stuff. And I was really interested in it and then I kind of got obsessed with it and it was always about challenging myself because it was timed and was functional movement, things

I've never done before and that became kind of my daily ritual so I wouldn't fall into depression. So your way out of that, which for a lot of people is too, was physiology. Yeah that was one way in. It was that in motorcycles, okay One of the things that I tell people is With clients they ask you know okay, so you got the pseudo and solid I need to connect to my solid self And the solid self is usually the whisper the pseudo self is the thundering voice right that's been Programming advertising right the shoulds you know followers social media. It's very loud The solid voice is usually the quiet whisper because we ignore, we don't listen to our

solid self. We don't listen to our truth because we're scared to, you know. So stay there. You say this in your book and in your content that you need to listen to the quiet whisper. Yeah, more so. Yeah. What does that look like when you do it? Is it just getting alone and turning out the noise? Because this is profound what you're about to say. This is profound right here. Yeah, I think it's in the stillness, you know. When we talk about our truth, our intuition, I think it's in our stillness because we're so not used to listening to the quiet voice

that we have to practice it until that voice then becomes louder and we trust that voice. I think our relationship with self is like any relationship in that it's built. You know, and then, you know, when people say self-love, I kind of, I kind of feel like it's a bumper sticker because it's, it's, it's like throwing around a lot like gratitude, right? And I get it. It's, it's, it's, of course self-love, but self-like. I think that's harder, man, because we love family members that we don't really like or we'd be friends with but they're family, so we love them with a choice. But liking someone's not a choice, right?

Like if I want you to like me, that's earned, man. I could say I love you as a brother or as another human. I don't know you. But then liking is earned. And so when you apply that to self, now enter the journey. And so when someone says, oh yeah, love yourself, that's like, what, over the weekend? What do I need to do to do that?

That's like a choice, okay, I do love myself. I choose to, you know, I'm alive, I'm feeding myself. I love myself in that way. But if someone says, like yourself, then it's like, so that's where I started. Do I like myself? What does that look like? And then I fell into fitness and bought a motorcycle

and spent a lot of time alone. You're helping millions of people right now. And the way you articulate this, I have to tell you something interesting. I love when I'm with a vulnerable person, I become more vulnerable, right? Yeah. That's why I love my show.

And I think about the same age I started to evaluate that. Oh wow. About 35, I'm 51 now. Well, by the way, huge work in progress on these things as well. But as I started to get to know me even, I don't even, so it didn't start with liking me, it started like actually getting to know me.

I found that my external relationships really dramatically became deeper. And by the way, over time, once I got to know me, I'm like, I kind of do like me. What was the catalyst for you? So for me, it was divorce, what was it for you? Success. Oh, sure.

Success, meaning, okay, I did exactly what you were saying. I'll get another, more money, more accolades, more people know me, more followers, extra success, meaning, okay, I did exactly what you were saying. I'll get another, more money, more accolades, more people know me, more followers, more this, more successful friends, more notoriety, more invites to cool parties, more jets, more this, more that, and I'm like, and I still am not happy. And this is a game I'm playing that is,

by the way, I've gotten really good at this game. I got different than you in the sense that I got good at that game, but it didn't produce what I thought it would produce. So you had success early. So by the time you were 35, you were... Yeah, I had some wealth by the time I was 35 and came from none of it, but I'll tell you what happened.

I remember one day I'm literally brushing my teeth. I caught a glimpse of myself brushing my teeth. And I realized in this moment, I'm like, I never even look at me. Like I might get ready to make sure I think I look good, but I'm never alone with me, where I just like, look at me. Like I might get ready to make sure I think I look good, but I'm never alone with me, where I just like look at me. Who is this man? Well, you're busy being successful.

I was busy being my pseudo self. Right, right. All the time. Right. By the way, a pretty nice pseudo self, a kind person. I was a giving person. I wasn't a mean person. I've always, you know, I think I've been pretty good human, but I didn't giving person. I wasn't a mean person. I've always you know, I think I've been pretty good human

But I didn't know me right and I remember just looking at me going I don't know that guy. I don't even spend any time looking at me never mind being with me or talking with me or enjoying me and It started it scared me. I'm like, I probably only have one more of these blocks. I don't have great genetics So I'm halfway. That's what I'm sorry. I'm like I'm halfway only have one more of these blocks. I don't have great genetics. So I'm halfway. That's when I was 35, I was like, I'm halfway, probably for me genetically. Now, now I think maybe hopefully it goes longer than that. But it's like, man, I don't wanna get out of this life

with never knowing me, never liking me. And then really how deep are these relationships that I have if I don't even know who I'm bringing to the relationship. And so your work, man, like really resonates with me. Oh, thank you. Deeply, and I think a lot of people, this would be surprised to hear two dudes about our age,

you know, kind of- I'm 49. Yeah, I'm a couple of years older than you, right? Well, if I was in Korea, I'd be 50 because they count the time in your mom's stomach. Do they really? That's why I don't live in Korea. That's why I stay in LA.

That's the reason, oh, okay, so you're younger. The other thing you said a minute ago, I wanna go there, is you were talking about how you put your first wife on a pedestal. You have something you said, bro, that in your work that has went, oh my gosh, which you said that we are taught, listen to this everyone, you're ready to go

for like a moment, which you're gonna get a lot with John. You said we are taught that love looks like codependency. Enmeshment, codependency. So what is that? What do you mean when you say that? Yeah, I used to believe that if you go down, I go down with you, if I go down, you go down with me, because it's romantic and also Disney movies, rom-coms,

and that feels, it just feels like love, right? We're all in this together. Okay. And now I believe if you go down, I'll give you my hand, but not my life. Do you know what I'm saying? We are two different people. And the image, and I remember this so well. A lot of people just heard that one. No, no, I don't want that. I want that thing that I see in the movie.

Because it shoots more dopamine and it's sexier, you know? The images that I see for a healthy relationship, I thought it was a yogurt ad, but someone DM'd me and said, no, that was actually a Viagra ad. And I was like, okay. But it was two people in a, they're like in their 80s on the Grand Canyon, you know, in separate bathtubs, facing outward. And the only thing that was connecting them was their hand outside of the bathtub. And I remember coming across that in a magazine and thinking, oh, this is what a healthy relationship looks like. Because what I would imagine is two people in a hot tub on top of each other, facing each other,

you know? And yes, that's sexy and that produces a lot of dopamine and that's kind of, I think we've been brainwashed to believe in the one, happily ever after and all that. You believe the one is BS. I do, I believe in the one in front of you. I think when you, and you've been married for so long, so I don't know how you feel about this, but. 25 years. Yeah, f**k. And I think today that like doubles.

It means more today those years. I think you're right.. It means more today those years. But when you're programmed to believe that there is the one, I think the danger in that is whoever you're dating, you're going to bust out your checklist and if this person is the one and the one for the rest of your life, man, they better be perfect. And everything better check off and the sex must be mind blowing and all in, that's not where human, you know, and everything better check off, and the sex must be mind-blowing, and all in. That's not where human, you know, and relationships are hard. And so it puts a lot of pressure and a black light on the relationship.

Now if the one is just the one in front of you, now you're more present and you're not thinking if there's someone else in the world that is better for you or suited for you. You know what I'm saying? Yes. The one is always the one that you're looking at. Well, I actually think when you have a belief that there's just the one that when you meet them, that potentially you come across as desperate or needy

because there's just one human now. And I think sometimes people that are in the dating circles don't realize that they have an energy they're giving off that once they think this person is the one, if you have that belief system, potentially there are multiple ones that would be right for you, right? There are not everyone is right for you,

but that when you do have this belief, this is the only walking human being on earth that will satisfy the things that I need in my life. How can you not come across as somewhat desperate when you're not being right? Well, you're gonna do everything you can to get this person or make this relationship work. And then by the way, I think in that,

I want you to talk about it because you're the therapist, not me, but that's probably fosters codependency. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I need you. Yes, yes. There's a dependency and that's also when you go from solid to pseudo. You know what I'm saying?

Why? Why do you have to go from solid to pseudo? Because you're not bringing your authentic self. You're bringing a self that is lined with desperation that is now putting this person, you know, high up, that is now going back to the hot tub with two people on top of each other instead of in their own separate bathtubs. And then also if you believe that this person is the one that you're supposed to be with for the rest of your life, what if it doesn't work out? What if she leaves? Like, you know?

You just explained where most people find such misery, bro. Yeah. Because they think they had them. Well also then you also get controlling. You also get jealous. All these other things, the shadow sides come out if you believe this is the one person for you in this world. But I think some people listen to this, let's go there.

Because you know what they're thinking. Okay, they're thinking, yeah, but then how deep is the connection? If I don't go down with you. When you say go down, I assume you mean like maybe they've become a drug addict or an alcoholic even, and you're like, I'm just supposed to ride this out with you. When you say go down, I assume you mean like maybe they've become a drug addict or an alcoholic even, and you're like, I'm just supposed to ride this out

with you forever as you ruin your life and mine. I often think sometimes that with my children, you have kids, that's unconditional love. There's really nothing my kids can do that's gonna stop this relationship with me. My daughter killed somebody, I hate to say this, but probably helping her bury the body somewhere. Yeah, no, I mean, all parents, right, right, right.

But other relationships, there are conditions. There should be. There should be conditions, right? Like, hey, if you repeatedly do these things to me, that's a condition that's broken. And I think sometimes people go to this, the one thing, or this codependency thing, where there are no conditions. Right. And then if codependency thing, whereas there are no conditions.

Right. And then if there are no conditions, if there are no boundaries, you're putting an awful lot of pressure on that other human being not to push the limits of that. Yeah. Don't you think? Yeah. Yeah. Vanessa, my partner, says it in this book, and I think we wrote it together. She says it really good about codependency. That's her whole thing, is she describes it as, if I'm, so basically what's healthy is if I'm okay and you're not okay, of course I could support you and stuff, but it's okay. Codependency is when you're not okay, that makes me not okay. Yeah. If I'm not okay, you should not be okay too.

You know what I'm saying? Very good. And that's like the whole, like, I'll give you my hand I'm not okay, you should not be okay too. You know what I'm saying? Very good. And that's like the whole, like, I'll give you my hand, but not my life. It doesn't mean that if you see your partner going through a winter or a depression that you just, oh, that's not me.

It's not that, of course you, you helping your support. But at what point do you, you can't lose self or your life because, cause then they're taking you hostage whether they want to know it or not. This self thing is so profound, bro, because one, I think a lot of us come into a relationship, by the way, and again, I'm being transparent. I think until I was about 35 years old, by the way, I'm still a work in progress

on it, but if you don't know who you are, what are you bringing to a relationship? And then also this loss of self when we enter a relationship is a really dangerous thing. One, I don't think that you're bringing the vibrational frequency, the energy, the interesting things about you if you die in order to be one in a relationship. And it's an interesting thing I wanted to explore with you

because I've watched relationships and of friends of mine that were very loving. They were two wonderful people that got together. They formed a bond. There's us now, which I think is powerful. But at some point that us eroded me and I, meaning that they were no longer an individual. Right, right, they meshed.

They meshed, and ironically, that lack of individuality, that lack of expression of who one is, became less attractive to the other person over time. It's called false advertising because you know it's funny because when you're single, you're working on yourself, you're going to the gym, you're doing all these things and you're really doing everything to connect to you and then you get into a relationship and over time you know then it's the sweats and the you know people kind of like let go of taking care of themselves and all that.

And I think we have a responsibility when we're in a relationship to continue the relationship with ourselves or else it is false advertising. Because when I met you, you were this type of person. And now like we never go out. You don't, you know, you don't court me anymore, which should be continuous. Right. You're not fanning the flames, you don't, all the stuff that you were doing when we started

is now gone because things have gotten too comfortable. You know, and so that's when it gets murky. And that's when people start getting curious about other people. I think you're exactly right, brother. What about this idea of, thank you for being so good at this. Oh, I don't know if I'm good, but. You're outstanding.

Thank you. And the way you express it is unique and it's why you're sitting here. Thanks. And like, I know when I'm in a good one of these. I know when I'm in something and I'm like, hey, this is special. You talk about different attachment styles.

Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, yeah. And I'll just go through three. There's more secure attachment is, and attachment style stemmed from childhood and of course, starting with our parents,, there's more secure attachment is an attachment style stem from childhood and of course starting with our parents. But there's anxious attachment and that is when you hold onto the person's leg instead of their hand, right?

That's like me. I need the person to tell me that I'm beautiful and that they're not leaving and they love me and all that kind of stuff, right? Lots of texts and connection. There's avoidant and that's more like my partner who runs the other way, is avoidant with intimacy and hard conversations and vulnerability.

We are not that much anymore because we've done a lot of work. I was gonna say, that would be pretty difficult. You're one of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's different extremes of that. Sure. But if we were to classify, that's where I come from, that's where she comes from.

And then there's secure. And secure is, again, when you have your own sense of self, interdependence, when you are your own person, you have your own opinions, you can say no. You can say to your boyfriend how you want him to go down on you. You can't express yourself. You can say, no, I don't want tacos today, I want pizza. And I know it sounds very, very simple, but in relationships, we don't do that. We actually start loving the, because we think what love looks like is loving the other person more than us.

Yeah. More than us. And because that's what a good husband looks like, I'm gonna always put her ahead of, she wants pizza, she's getting pizza. That's what a man looks like. It's like, is it? Or are you exchanging your truth for love or for validation? Are you exchanging something that, you know what I'm

saying? So now if that's the case, are you giving or taking? Because if you want something back from the person you're taking, you're not giving. Giving would be like, hey, I love you, but today I want pizza. Is that what you mean by choosing ourselves or is that a little bit different? Yeah, I think, I think that also is choosing yourself, meaning, um, stand on your truth and put action behind, uh, what loving slash liking yourself looks like. And I think some people are good at that when they're single,

but I think when they get into a relationship, when love enters the picture, right, especially if it's toxic, right, especially if someone is needy or codependent or controlling or all of that, the wheels fall off. And it happens over time, you know, it's like the the boiling frog, right? Yes. It's a slow drip that can still drown you. It's not like people don't fall into toxic relationships when on the date they sense all these red flags and they're like, okay, I'm going to invest in this person anyway.

Usually it's over time, five, six years in, and now they wake up one day and they're like, I don't even know who I am. Yes. I don't know who I am. A lot of women and mostly women than men from my experience with working with clients wake up mostly in their th 30s and been with people for you know five ten years and this happens and they're like I have no sense of I'm just here I'm existing I'm not living and just having sex because it's obligation and they

don't know what to do and they've really lost like who they are. Okay so like five million people just are going oh oh my gosh, you just described me, right? Yeah, now what do I do? Yeah, right. So what would be a... What's a... You're going right where I want to go. Well, it's kind of like, I think, where I started, you know, it's the hero's journey, man. It's the... Hero's journey.

...call to, you know, the hero's journey, right? The call to adventure and slaying your dragons. I think it's starting, going back full circle to suit over solid What is your solid self and can you start listening to that solid self and it comes in micro moments It's not like these big decisions like, you know life-changing I mean it can be but it can be something as like hey, you know what today? I'm not gonna go to work. I'm gonna go to the beach. It's a quiet whisper, but then there's this giant should yeah But you're this and you're that and then then means you're a lazy piece of whatever.

And so can you give yourself love, compassion, understanding, and today, can you execute what you want, the quiet whisper, and actually go to the beach? Can you give that to yourself without the shame, without the, and it's gonna be really hard. Most people can't. You start there and then you build and then you build and you get to a place where you start then able to set boundaries,

to make choices, and it's also more attractive, right? And then the people around you are like, f***, I'll have what she's having. Yes. Man, she's kind, but she's assertive. You know what else also happens? I'll have her. No, really, like what ends up happening is this becomes a magnetic, attractive being again. Or maybe for the first time. I so totally agree with you. And it could be actually standing up for what you want. Like I actually want tacos tonight.

It sounds so trivial. It's so silly. But it's in the mundane. Or actually, honey, you're going to watch the kids and I am going to the gym. And actually stand for yourself and do something caring and loving for yourself, right? And coming from a place of controlling

or getting back at anyone, it's coming from your truth and it's coming from a place of self love, you know? What is, you got these terms, man. What is repetition compulsion? Repetition, I think my partner wrote that one. Okay, so that must be from your partner. I think what it was is that you, I think, I wanna go there with it

because I think it was like repetitiously falling into a pattern in a relationship where like you have a compulsion to continue to serve them in a way that maybe doesn't serve you anymore. So actually I'll make my own term of it. Yeah, I love it. Let's just say I'm right. I love it, I think you're right.

But I think that happens intimately wise too. Where like there's something that, we're going really deep here, but like there's something intimately that your partner really loves that you don't enjoy, that you don't like, but you repetitiously do it as some compulsion to serve them or maybe some verbal thing you do

or a particular behavior you have. Maybe it's not even in an intimate way, but it doesn't serve you. It doesn't make you feel good about you. There's a way they speak to you or you speak to them, but it makes them feel good. So you have this compulsion to continue to do it. That's my version.

Yes. So we all went out to dinner the other night, me and like four other therapists, my partner's a therapist, our friend's a therapist. And we were talking and I don't know how we got on this topic, but we're talking about how women can go down on a guy and actually, oh, as a way to avoid sex. And I was like, wait a minute, but that's so intimate. And they're like, it might be for men

when men are going down on women, but for women, they're saying that, and these are all women, they're saying, it's easy, it's not intimate, and it could be a great way to get out of sex. And it blew my mind. And I was thinking, and they're like, yeah, and we've been doing it for years. And I was thinking, so that's kind of an example

of a pattern that could happen, right? If you don't wanna be intimate, where that's kind of how you take care, and it shouldn't be happening because it's misleading, and also you shouldn't be doing it if you don't want to. But something like that over the years, the pattern of that is damaging, right? And that's, we're just talking about just everyday stuff, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's super interesting.

And it shocked me because I was thinking, oh, and then I started playing back on my relationships and I was thinking, how many of them were just doing it because they didn't want to have sex with me? I was like, oh my God. You look back at your life and you're like, I thought they were... Yeah. That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed Mylett show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way.

I reached out to this woman to be on my show after I experienced her work. And I haven't done that in probably two years. I was telling her, I said, I want you to come on my show. She has a special out on Netflix right now called Mom Jeans, which I've watched four times, including last night with my kids, and we were literally belly laughing, falling over. And I cannot wait for this hour,

because I wanna know you and I want you to help a bunch of people. So Christina P, welcome to the show. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. You have two parents. The good parent, who you speak highly of is- Who I thought was- This is the good one, by the way.

And so, as I understand it, you're the good one. Your dad has been married five times? Is that right? Is it five? Well, you know, there's a little factual fudging here and there, but yeah, a few times. Is he really married to someone that much younger than him? Is that actually a true story? Or dates someone younger than him? Younger, yeah. I fudge a little.

Yeah, everybody does in that space. Yeah, it's for comedic purposes. But the gist of it is yes. Is that actually a true story, or dates someone younger than him? Younger, yeah. I fudge a little. Yeah, everybody does in that space. Yeah, it's for comedic purposes. But the gist of it is yes. Your dad was a player. Oh, I mean... Well, yeah, I'll give you the stats. So, parents are Hungarian immigrants.

They escape from communism in 1969. They get married at 19 and 20, and leave their country at that young age. Can you even imagine being like, I'm up, I'm out, let's escape. Escape communism, bro. They go to Canada. They have me in Canada, and then we move to the U.S. in 1980.

By then, their marriage has just dissolved, because my mother is mentally ill. She's a borderline, but back then, nobody called it anything, we didn't know it. And she later became schizophrenic. And my father is an alcoholic, obviously, to deal with his... You know, they had horrendous upbringings. It's not their fault, right? They divorce, and then it's me alone ping-ponged

between my mentally ill mother or my alcoholic sex addict father. Wow. Right, but you know it. Because did your parents stay together? Yeah. Ugh, I'm not sure what's worse. Well, mine was redemptive because my mom was well-adjusted.

My mom was there and was solid. The reason I probably connected with you is I picture your dad, maybe not all that much unlike my dad. And then I'm thinking, though, if I didn't have my mom, and then you having a probably even more disconnected mother. Yeah. And I'm literally, I'll be honest with you, I'm watching your show, I wanna make sure

I do a great interview with you today, because I actually feel like this can care for you from watching you, which is a comedy special. I've never laughed harder either, but... When you were speaking and doing your show, I was picturing you as a little girl. I was actually picturing it with your mom. And how, like, scary that might have been sometimes,

seeing her not be functional and normal and losing her temper and stuff like that. What... Can you tell us a little bit what it was actually like? Now that you're offstage, what's the real? Yeah, it's, uh... I'm like, I'm still on therapy. You know, just to let people know,

like, I've been in therapy for 12 years, and then I feel like just now, I'm getting into the actual trauma work, where you feel the feelings of terror that you had as a child. And I had terror and fear because there was no... There's no safe place when you're like that, right? So my mother would become, I remember one time,

she made these lunches for me that I didn't like. It was like Hungarian lunch, you know, like, like, salami with butter. And I take it to school, and I'm like, I don't want to eat this, you know? Everyone's making fun of me, because I'm a foreigner. And so I hide the sandwiches in the bottom of my book bag, because I don't, I can't throw them out,

because I feel too guilty about throwing them out, I'll get in trouble. And I can't tell her that I don't like the sandwiches. Can't tell her, because she'll get mad. So I hide a bunch, eventually I have a stockpile of like 14 or 15, it's kind of my hands are sweating when I'm telling this story. And I hid them in my closet. Well, eventually, the stench of 14 or 15 salami

and butter sandwiches caught up, and she found them, and it was a rage, and it was like, you know, everything. My anger, and then she kicks me out. And that's the beginning of like kicking me out to go live with my father. And my dad's house then she kicks me out. And that's the beginning of, like, kicking me out to go live with my father. And my dad's house wasn't a lot better. So that, you know, because of alcohol and girls

and party and all that jazz. So it's basically like, I'm betrayed everywhere I go. I look and I don't have a safe place. And it's scary and terrifying. What's your day-to-day like then? Are you always scared? Always do you have... Were you not a confident kid? The reason I ask people, you know why I'm asking you this.

Millions of people listening to this will be like, okay, there's a piece of me in her. I really believe this in life. Like, if you really want to impress everybody, just show them how perfect you are. If you want to connect with people and help them, show them your imperfections. Yeah, for sure. And you and I both do a really good this in life. Like, if you really want to impress everybody, just show them how perfect you are. If you want to connect with people and help them, show them your imperfections. Yeah, for sure.

And you and I both do a really good job of that. And so you're this little girl, and I just picture you bouncing from these two dysfunctional people. Yeah. And with no other even siblings to grab onto and say, okay, they love me, they'll protect me. Nothing.

No. But you know who I did have? Along the way were sensible adults, teachers that I liked and that I could speak to. I had American, I say American, because like, you know, I'm an alien in the sense, you know this too, as a child and I'm an alcoholic, you're an alien because you're different and you know it and you can't tell people at school, like, what's going on at home, because you know that that's

a secret you must keep. So I would go to my friend's house, I lived at my friend's house. By the time I was 12, I was out. Like, you know what that's a secret you must keep. So I would go to my friend's house. I lived at my friend's house. By the time I was 12, I was out. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, by the time I'm 12, I have this epiphany that I'm alone. Truly alone. And an existential... Like, I was a latchkey kid, so I was physically alone,

but I was an adult. I was gone. So I would try to stay at my friend's houses and get the fuck out, but... But how did I... I'll tell you what I did know at that age, is that my suffering... You know when you're like, you know you're suffering, but you don't really know as a kid.

You don't know. It's all you know. But I knew that there was something inside of me that was resilient. There was some magic. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I would watch Pippi Longstocking. Me too. Yeah.

So did I. Yeah, and it was like, because of those characters, because of the mythologies and the con... whatever it is I was glomming onto stories, I would, like, pretend to be that person. Like, my life isn't this, I'm Pippi Long... Isn't this fun that I actually turn it into, like, I'm living with my single dad,

and he makes me eat on paper plates, but I can cut my spaghetti with scissors because I'm pippy long stocking. Like, I turned it into a fun thing. Yep. Yep. You too? Yeah, I think that, look, stuff's over said in personal development.

Everything's happening for me, not to me. I don't know if I was the first person to say that, or the third. I'd like to think I was the first. But sometimes that stuff's easy to say and hard to me. I don't know if I was the first person to say that or the third. I'd like to think I was the first. But sometimes that stuff's easy to say and hard to apply. But I do think, like, I became really resilient because of it. I became... I really, you know, like in the business world, I've made a lot of money. One of the ways I've made

a lot of money is, like, two things. Both of them, because my dad was a drinker. One, I've learned to be really... read people well. And be present with them. The reason was, I had to figure out when my dad was coming through that front door, which one was I getting? Was I getting the sober one who was gonna be, okay, we're gonna have dinner and play basketball?

Or was it the drunk one and, you know, maybe my mom and sister should go upstairs, so I would read this man. And that, I didn't know Napoleon Hill says in Think and Grow Rich. Love that book. Me too. It's the second best book ever written

on personal loan other than The Power of One More, which is sitting next to you. And, but in that book, he says, on the other side of temporary pain, you meet your other self. And I met this version of me that wouldn't have existed, where I'm really good at reading people and being present with them.

And then the other thing I'm decent at doing is communicating. So are you. And because I had to learn how to talk to my dad when he was in those states, so that I could change him just a little bit, or even move certain ways I would move. Little did I know that those two things were forming this version of me that I would use someday to help millions of people.

And I watch you, and I watch your ability to have, like, insights into human beings' behaviors. And how they move and operate, how they think, and then your ability to communicate. And I think some of that's got to be part of the blessing of going through what you went through. Suffering. Suffering makes you funny. Makes you clever. makes you resourceful.

You know, everybody I know, like you... Most of the guys I know that are hugely successful didn't graduate from Harvard. Yeah, right. Me too. Or crappy at school and had horrible upbringings. Isn't that interesting? It's the secret sauce, isn't it? It is. It is.

But I think for me, my father loved comedy and good humor. So I was watching Richard Pryor when I was little and Eddie Murphy and Saturday Night Live and Cheech and Chong, and this was my education. And then the truly tasteless joke books, I would memorize those, because those would be in the bathroom. And I would tell those jokes to my father

or to my schoolmates at school. I would go to school in like third grade and I would repeat these jokes to my father or to my schoolmates at school. I would go to school in, like, third grade, and I would repeat these jokes that are, you know, by today's standards, completely verboten, right? Like, blonde jokes and Jewish jokes and da-da-da-da-da. I didn't even know what they were, but I knew that people laughed. And that's how I could get out of stuff.

And I also, I became entertaining to my dad so that I wasn't a burden. Interesting. You, um... See, if you, right now, in the middle of this, like, took a minute and went over to YouTube and watched Christina, you'd see this, like... I mean, I'm not saying it's a compliment.

You just see this very powerful, very together, very... To walk out on a stage, any stage, and own it like you do, there's a command. There's something. So, I don't know if you've done a lot of interviews like this. I don't think you have. No, we don't talk. Comedians are generally like, let's talk about our farts. Right, but comedians are also usually pretty dark people

in real life, right? Would you agree with that? I think that's one thing most people wouldn't know. My friends that are super funny, that do it for a living. There's a... I guess I'd call it a darkness or a pain or something they're moving away from most of the time in their life. Is that true? Well, here's the deal. The funnier you are, the more you've embraced the darkness, in my opinion.

It's the funniest ones are the ones... who get, who know it's there and don't push it away. That's why, personally, my taste in comedy has always been Bill Hicks or Carlin or these guys. I love Greg Giraldo. He passed away from drugs. But these guys that could really harness the darkness and go there, I don't give a shit about cookie. What's the difference between cookie and kinky?

I don't care. Yeah. Shut up. Tell me the real. You know? Yeah. So, yes, but here's what I would argue is that most people are dark. Everyone has the shadow of self,

and comedians aren't always afraid of going there. But your accountant, your lawyer, your dentist, guess what? They're dark too, probably. Only true. Yeah, probably. But you haven't looked. You don't want to peek. Hmm. If I'd have met you at, like, 12... Oh....who would I be meeting? Oh, my God.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, you do you, though. You do you, too, okay? Okay, okay. Okay, so 12, I started smoking cigarettes already. Okay. Started wearing all black. You did.

I was already, um... School was kinda not interesting. I wanna hang out, smoke cigarettes, listen to punk rock. I started, I wanna go to night clubs by 13, 14. I'm in goth night clubs and like doing, yeah. Just kinda angry and confused. Go back a minute, I'll tell you me. Is it really true that you were in bars with your dad

when you were a little girl? That's actually true. That's a true part of your act. Yeah, that part's true. 100%. Your father would take you out to a bar at six, seven, eight years old, and you would be dancing to white lines in the bar. Is there some truth to that? Yeah, it's all true. So that part's true. And that's why, so I actually paid out of my own money

to license that Frankie Goes to Hollywood song. I wondered at the end. I'm so screwed up, because I know about all these things. I'm like, damn, she must have paid for that to be at the end, because that ain screwed up because I know about all these things. I'm like, damn, she must've paid for that to be at the end because that ain't free. I thought about that last night. I paid so much money because Netflix paid for my crazy outfit,

which was unfortunate. And they paid for this New York city. It was like huge, huge budget. And then I was like, and I want Frankie goes to Hollywood. And they're like, no. Because it's the perfect ending. You guys gotta go see this.

But so that, I wanna stay there. So I go to, so my dad goes to party, and, you know, back in the old country, there's no babysitters, so his dad would take him to the bar. I imagine that is what happened. And so, I grew up in bars and night clubs very early. So, at third grade, I've actually really fun memories as a kid going to these bars and dancing,

and dancing to the 80s music, which is the best, dude. Like, I really lucked out in that regard. And I have a vivid memory of dancing with sailors. And there's literally sailors. They're at Fleet Week or whatever. And I'm this little girl. And that song, Mony Mony, comes on. And do you know what the hidden chorus is?

Hey, mother effer get effed. And here I am. Everyone yells it. Yeah, and then I was like, what. And here I am. Everyone yells it. Yeah, and then I was like, what? Oh, and then I'm chanting it. Like, but it was fun for me. And yeah. You thought White Lines was a coloring book?

I did. I had no idea that it was about cocaine. I was so little. And but then I'd go to school the next day, and I knew to keep it a secret. You knew. So there's something you knew. I want, this sounds really corny, but I'm listening to the part of your act.

And I like want to hug this little girl. I also just picture you at your age and me at that age and what I was doing. What are you into at 12? Well, at 12, I went the other way. Well, first, if you met me at 12, yeah. If you met me at 12, you would meet a really shy kid. Really shy, really introverted, no confidence whatsoever

of any type. But I was good at baseball. And so I kind of went the other way. I was more like straight lace, never got in trouble. Was afraid to become what I was seeing in my house. I was afraid. My dad was still drinking when I was 12. So I kind of became more like an athlete type, I guess. But I wasn't like one of those athletes where like I was a cocky athlete. It was just the only thing I was any good at. It was the only thing. Like it was the type, I guess, but I wasn't like one of those athletes where like I was a cocky athlete.

It was just the only thing I was any good at. It was the only thing. Like, it was the one place I went where I was like, oh, I don't completely, totally suck here. And no one was bullying me there, right? You know, I would worry. There was worries, like I would worry on game days if my dad was gonna show up to a game. And if he did, was he drunk?

If he was at the game, was he gonna say or do anything? Sometimes I feel bad because I'm describing these times, and I know my mom listens to my show, and she's like, was it really that bad? And I'm like, I don't know. Maybe it is worse when I describe it now, because it's all I knew, right? Like, it's all I knew.

And my dad did end up getting sober, and so there's like, the reason I'm in this, like, you can change your self-space is I watched my old man do it, right? So I'm like, I watched my hero do it. But probably if you met me then, I don't even know that I'd be that much different than I am now. I think when people meet me now, they're like,

I kind of expected, you know, I don't know, you'd have more of, I don't know, like, that front that people have that are successful or whatever. I still am like, hey, man, I'm working on myself, and there's certain environments I'm comfortable in. You put me in front of 15,000 people on a stage, I'm completely at home and I own it. You put me in a cocktail party with like six or eight people,

and someone's right here, and I'm like, yeah, I gotta... I gotta make the... go to the restroom. Like, I'm constantly trying to avoid... You said that you're Tom's a little that way. Yeah, my husband's an introvert like that too. He's not the life of the party. I think I'm a lot more fun at a party than he is. You think that's from the bar experience? Seriously?

Like, you're used to being social? Yeah, I love party. Yeah. And it's also cultural. Like, we're Hungarians, so like on Sunday, we have a party, everybody comes over, you're telling dirty jokes, you're drinking, you know, it's like this... I was never, like, shy as a kid, because my mother pushed me into acting when I was four.

So I was like, yeah, I was auditioning and already kind of a show business. And then I think around 10 or 11, I do, like, a pilot, and then I'm like, I don't want to be an actor. This is for the birds. This is not... I'm depressive. And that's actually what I was going to share with you. So by the time I'm 14, upside down, this is when I get super depressed.

Because now, you know, when you're messed in childhood, guess what? It comes back in adolescence. And now the drama really... So I'm 14 years old, I'm goth, I'm cutting, right? I'm cutting up my arms just to feel some release. Because I'm so depressed. And I'm sitting in the room, in my room, just trying to try to hide from my parents and the reality.

And I, you know, you're confused. You think you're being dramatic. Like, is this really true? Is my family this wonky? Or like, I don't know. Am I, am I, I must be messed up because, you know, like, I'm the one that's flawed. So by the time I'm 14, I'm convinced it's me and not them.

And I'm suicidal. And life is, like, I have straight D's. I remember, like, I just decided to stop going to school. I just decided I was in ninth grade, and I was like, I'm not going anymore. And then I just stopped going. I was like, no, thank you. And I stopped going.

And then I had straight D's, I remember. And I eventually went back. And I was failing out of school. And then one day, I just went nuts in this, in the bathroom stall cutting, and I was just like, whoa! And I just cut, I just went crazy. And this friend of mine, this girl I had been friends with, and we had a falling out, whatever, like, she found me, she took me to the office at school.

Oh, my God. Yeah, so dramatic. And then. Like, she found me, she took me to the office at school. Oh, my God. Yeah, so dramatic. And then my mom came to get me, and she saw my arms, and then she started to hit me. I remember, she beat me, and I was like... Oh, my God. Yeah, and I was like, just put me in a mental hospital.

Like, I begged them, I'm like, put me away. I think something's wrong with me, put me away. And my mother had worked for a psychiatrist, and I think she's wrong with me, put me away. And my mother had worked for a psychiatrist, and I think she's just worried about putting me in a mental hospital or whatever, like that it would stigmatize me or mess me up worse. So she was like, no, I didn't see a therapist yet. She's like, but do you want to go to Catholic school?

And I was like, yeah. I mean, she showed me this brochure to this all-girls Catholic school. And I was like, yeah. I mean, she showed me this brochure to this all-girls Catholic school. And I was like, yeah, OK. So I went to the nuns, and I loved it. I loved it, man. I had a mohawk at the time, like an orange mohawk. And I remember this nice head nun, the principal, goes,

listen, sweetie, you shouldn't come, sweetie. She goes, it doesn't have to be the color God gave you. It just has to be a God-given color. I know, so I dyed it brown and I hid my mohawk and I grew it out. And I could put my book bag down and nobody would steal it. And by the time I graduated, I was like, a leader of this retreat and I had, I just flourished

because of the boundaries and the... It was an all-girls school too, so there was like, oh, I don't have to be cute. I'm wearing a uniform. I can just be a little girl again. And I reverted. And I was able to be safe. And that saved my life. Saved your life. Catholic school saved my life, yeah. It's pretty amazing to see your face right now.

You know, this is mainly audio. I wish everyone could see your face. It's interesting to see you talk about that time. Think about your mom there for a second. So she loved you. I mean, she was trying with the limited capacity she had to help her daughter there, right? I mean, did that ever dawn on you?

I mean, she did love you, right? Yes, yes. No, obviously, too, a lot of what I say for comedic, it's no good if they're shades of gray. But I actually think you really feel it. Like, I actually think you really... Let me tell you what I mean by that. I really do feel these things about my dad.

I feel guilty about feeling them because I know that... that that's not... wasn't his intent. It was his... You feel guilty about having negative feelings towards him? Yeah, I do because I love him so much. I know he loved me so much. I've got to the other side of it now where I can... And this is so good for everyone listening to this, who goes through these things, but...

I... I don't... I think it's okay that I feel it. I feel sometimes weird that other people know I feel it, because I don't want them to think that about my dad. You don't want them to judge him or you? Both. Both. I don't want to be judged for feeling that way. And also, like, I do know that my dad hurt people hurt people, right? So I know my dad was operating out of something

that happened in his life, in his upbringing, and same with his dad, and so on and so on. But I... I feel weird about the fact that there's this man I love so much, but that I... These things did happen. I do feel this way. You know, I have both feelings. I remember what it's like when I didn't feel good about him, and I remember what it feels like when I do.

And I... And in your case, your mom was trying. But when you went there, when you... Catholic school, does that when you start to change permanently, or do you end up reverting back? Like... Oh, okay. When do you become you? Right. So that's a good question. Yeah.

So also, before I go there, I love what you say about having two simultaneous feelings. And I think that's what you learn in therapy, is that I can love and hate my mom at the same time. I can love and hate my dad at the same time. I can thank my mother for all the wonderful qualities she had. She was fashionable.

She had flair. She had timing. She was funny. She had flair. She had timing. She was funny. She was crazier than the... too. You know what I'm saying? Like, my dad, too, is just like funny, antisocial, brooding, um... independent, resilient. Like, brilliant, nut.

Does it ever dawn on you, and I'll let you keep going, that they end up raising? I mean, because you're really humble, but does it ever dawn on you, and I'll let you keep going, that they end up raising... I mean, because you're really humble, but does it ever dawn on you that these two people raised a daughter who now... I mean, let's just be real. Like, you're one of the more... I mean, you're gonna roll your eyes when I say this, but you are one of the more influential people

on the planet in terms of your show and your reach and your husband and you. So funny. I don't even feel that way. Yeah, I know you don't I don't even feel that way. Yeah, I know you don't. But do you feel that way? No, not at all. But it's ridiculous.

But you are. And so these two totally dysfunctional human beings, no, really, raised this single child together, right? How? How, right? And then you end up, I mean, I'm picturing you cutting yourself. Yeah, it's terrible. These maniacs.

And I was, by the way, I went through this stage where like I was so depressed. I don't know if I was, I just, I used to think, what the heck is life about? Why am I living this life? What is this? Is this worth it at all? So that goes into that. Yeah, and I, did you have that too?

Yeah, man. So the darkness. So, okay, so hold on. Back where you were just saying, how did they raise someone? I'll tell you why. Because it makes me sad because my parents are wildly awesome people who had a bad go of it, man.

Could you imagine being born in communist Hungary? It's after World War II, so the country's already been ravaged by the Germans, war, war, awful poverty. And now the Russians come and destroy your country. And it's a nightmare. They have nothing. So I always think of them as this pure potential that just got destroyed. So I know that they've got the makings.

Oh, but had they just had my life. Damn it. I lucked out. They had your life. So you lucked out being raised by the two of them compared to what they had. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And here's another lucky thing I had. Money. No, we weren't rich. I'm not saying I was rich.

You have food every day. You have to worry about where meals were coming from. No, not like that. We were like middle class. And I think back in the 90s, there was a middle class, right? Yeah. And I hate when people poo poo money. It makes me bonkers when they're like, money isn't everything. That's not everything,

but it's awesome. And the lack of it is horrible. And it sucks being broke. The lack of it is horrible. And it sucks being broke. Right, the lack of it's horrible. So it changes, so it gives you a choice. So the fact that I was educated was a huge blessing. Now, I barely eked my way into college, right? Barely got in, man, but I did.

And then once I was out of the house, I was getting straight As, and I was like, oh, I'm not an idiot. It's just that I was in this place that I couldn't study because everybody was screaming and yelling, and it was a bad environment. And that's when I found philosophy. So I started studying philosophy and that changed my life.

And that's when I was like, oh, I have a brain. I'm not just like a screw up who tried to kill herself in ninth grade. And I was always trying to outlive that stigma of being a loser. Because my parents were like, oh, you try to kill yourself. You know, it was like, I disappointed everybody in my family. My grandmother wouldn't give me money that year for Christmas

because she thought I was going to spend it on drugs, which I wasn't even really on drugs. You know what I mean? So I was like this loser in my family. So I found philosophy and I was getting A's and I was like, you know what? Screw you, man. I'm going to be, I'm going to show you, right?

I'm going to show you I'm a winner. And then I got into Oxford for a year. And I went to study philosophy at Oxford. Yeah, man. Yeah. As I'm telling you, so I went from, like, Loserville to, like, I don't know what I'm gonna be, but I'm gonna show you, mom and dad. Yeah, so I studied philosophy at Oxford.

I come back and I'm... And I do that show Road Rules. I didn't know you did Road Rules. A million years later. And then I was like, wouldn't it be great if I could make a living just being myself? Flash forward to podcasting. But anyway, I had this great boss after college,

because I had this degree in philosophy and I was such a useless degree. And he's like, you're the worst employee I've ever had. His name is Chris Ibrego. Shout out to Chris Ibrego. What's up, Chris? And I, you're the worst employee I've ever had, His name is Chris Ibrego. Shout out to Chris Ibrego. What's up, Chris? And I, you're the worst employee I've ever had, but you're funny. Go do the groundlings. I was 23.

Come on. And then I went to the groundlings, and I was like, this is it. I found it. It's like when you find your thing you're good at. Yep. You found sports. Yep. And then I'm like, all right, hey, man,

maybe, you know, I'm an idiot, I'm a loser, whatever, but this is something I love. And once you get obsessed, you know how it is? Like when you find your obsession, I don't care what it takes, bro. I'm gonna keep coming and do this. Put me in a motel six. Okay.

Like yeah, I'll do, you want me to go to Afghanistan? Can I do 15 minutes of stage time in Afghanistan? Yeah, dude, I'll go. You did that? Hell yeah, I did everything. You did. Well, I'm, I did everything. You did. Well, I'm sure you did everything by any means. But in your case, so you find it.

By the way, it's one of the great blessings of life. I always feel for people that have not yet found it. Yeah. Because it's, I feel like of all the things I got cheated out of in life, I did find some talents and skills when I was relatively young, outside of baseball too, that I was like, okay, I like business, I like speaking.

This is stuff I'm pretty really good at. I feel at home. It doesn't feel like work when I'm doing it. That's the, boom. Doesn't feel like work when I, I always laugh when people call, you going to work tonight? Stan, I'm like, that's not, it's never worked, baby.

I've had day jobs. I had 22 of them before I became a standard givey. They all sucked. Yeah, exactly. That's not a job. This ain't work, man. Yeah, that's how I feel. Yeah. Today is how I feel. Yeah. Today is all about friends.

We're gonna talk about how to be a better friend, why friendships matter so deeply. I have the woman here that's gonna help you with it. My guest today is Dr. Marisa Franco. She is currently a New York Times bestselling author of the new book called Platonic, How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends.

She's also got a PhD in Counseling Psychology. She's been an expert on, you know, different programs including Good Morning America and now on the Ed Milett Show. So Dr. Franco, great to have you here, welcome. Thank you so much for having me, happy to be here. So what about your work? Because you say how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. So what is the science of attachment? I wanna get to the root of this before we leave. What is the science of attachment? And in your words, before we leave

and take as much time as you want, how does that help us make and keep friends? The science of attachment. Yeah, so as I sort of sifted through the research on friendship, what I found was that our personalities are fundamentally a reflection of our experiences of connection or disconnection. Whether I am open, warm, trusting, cynical,

all of these things are predicted by whether I've had healthy connection in the past. But not only that, if I've had that healthy connection, I cultivate a number of traits that contribute to me continuing to connect, right? And that's if I am securely attached, I've had those healthy relationships, I begin to display these healthy behaviors that allow me to continue to attach to other people. Insecurely attached people, they haven't had, oh, did you want to ask me? No, I'm profoundly agreeing with you right now. Keep going, please. Yes. Insecurely attached people, they haven't had healthy connection in the past. They carry

around this unconscious template for connection. Either that everybody is going to abandon me or sort of betray me. And this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They look out for instances where this is true. They do not register instances that are counter to this assumption. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy too, Ed, because if I think you're going to abandon me, when the situation is ambiguous,

you might be hangry, for example. I think you're rejecting me. I reject you. I become cold and withdrawn. And then you reject me because you feel rejected by me. Right. And so if we don't understand our own attachment, which is really our internal template for how people are treating us, which then affects our own behaviors in our relationships, we will continue to think the world is just cruel. People just reject me. People can't be trusted. And if we understand our own attachment,

we can be empowered to think there are behaviors I can change so that I can foster deeper connections with others. I love you. This is exactly why, no, this is exactly the question I asked you earlier, where I think we agree, but we word it differently. You're so flipping right.

So my main male relationship was with my dad and my dad was a drinker when I was young and wouldn't show up and and I started to build these belief systems. You're talking about that idea that hey maybe you shouldn't have people around you that are different than you until you're ready because you haven't had these healthy other relationships you were using the example with you earlier and you're very right about it because my when I had male relationships in my life I thought well they're all gonna lie to me they're all gonna eventually leave they're all gonna screw me over they're all gonna do this

or that because the one relationship I had with the most important male that had happened and I had to really learn in my relationships not to project that pattern and dynamic into my new friendships and early in my life you're so right early in my life I lost a lot of friendships because I would jump to the conclusion that that was happening because it looked like what it used to look like and so I'd go up they're doing it they lied right there they're they're like my dad well no they're a human and they fibbed a little bit and they're still a really good person who loves me it doesn't mean all these other things are going to

happen and so that's why your work matters so much because you're exactly right about that and it's worth going back the last three minutes there and evaluating with Dr. Franco just said because we do do that in our patterns in our relationships. We do sort of project into them that way and I totally agree with that and that's why I was nodding. I certainly wasn't trying to jump in and interrupt you there because I think that was gold. So I think you are too. I think your work, I just want to tell you there because I think that was gold. So I think you are too. I think your work, I just want to tell you thank you for doing the work you do.