THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Navy SEAL’s Guide to Mastering Uncertainty with Rich Diviney

Episode Date: April 8, 2025

What If You Could Train Your Brain to Thrive in Chaos? Let’s face it—life doesn’t always go according to plan. And if you’re like most people, uncertainty can feel like quicksand. That’s why I brought Rich Diviney back on the show. He’s a former Navy SEAL, a brilliant thinker, and one of the most practical minds I’ve ever met when it comes to performance under pressure. In this conversation, we don’t just talk about facing fear—we talk about how to operate at your best when everything around you is unclear. Rich breaks down what he calls the Uncertainty Method, a six-part framework designed to help you stay calm, focused, and effective when the stakes are high. We get into how your brain actually responds to stress, how to manage your energy like a pro, and why picking the right "horizon"—your next small target—is the difference between quitting and making it through. This isn’t theory. It’s real-life application that I’ve used in my own life, and I promise you, it works. There’s a moment where Rich explains the power of asking better questions—how a single shift in language can literally change your brain’s chemistry. Instead of asking, “Why does this always happen to me?” what if you asked, “What can I do right now to move forward?” These aren’t just mindset tricks. These are tactical tools that can help you lead better, parent better, and live with more clarity in uncertain times. And I loved how we ended the show—talking about identity, leadership, and why the best teams don’t follow one leader… they shift leadership based on who’s best equipped to lead in the moment. That’s how you build trust. That’s how you build results. Key Takeaways: The difference between peak and optimal performance—and why optimal wins over time A 6-part method to stay grounded and productive in uncertain, high-stress environments How to use breathing and language to rewire your nervous system on demand Why chunking your goals into manageable “horizons” helps you avoid overwhelm The four elements that create trust on any team: competence, consistency, character, and compassion This episode is loaded with wisdom you can use the moment you stop listening. Rich doesn’t just talk about resilience—he lives it. And after this conversation, you’ll be able to say the same. Max out.   👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈   → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ←  ➡️ INSTAGRAM   ➡️FACEBOOK   ➡️ LINKEDIN   ➡️ X / TWITTER   ➡️ WEBSITE    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So hey guys, listen, we're all trying to get more productive and the question is, how do you find a way to get an edge? I'm a big believer that if you're getting mentoring or you're in an environment that causes growth, a growth based environment, that you're much more likely to grow and you're going to grow faster. And that's why I love Growth Day. Growth Day is an app that my friend Brendan Richard has created that I'm a big fan of. Write this down, growthday.com forward slash ed. So if you want to be more productive, by the way the way he's asked me I post videos in there every single Monday that gets your day off to the right start he's got about five thousand ten thousand dollars worth of courses that are in there that come with the app also some of the top influencers in the world are all posting content and they're

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Find your pulse today. Learn more at CanAmMotorcycles.com. This is the Admired Show. Welcome back to the show everybody. So to get on this show twice, I have to really be impressed with how you do. To get on the show three times means you're a hall of famer all time on the show. And slash I really really like you. And in this case, all of the above fits the gentleman that's on the show today. He's got a new book out. It's called Masters of Uncertainty. He's got a new book out.

It's called masters of uncertainty. He's highly qualified to write it. Um, I consider him a friend. I like him very much. His background is, I'm supposed to say that he led an elite seal team, SEAL TEAM 6. Um, when he was in his former lifetime, he's one of the great leaders of all time. I think he's one of the brightest minds that I've ever had on the show before. And we're going to talk about today a topic that is perfect for these times, which is

really dealing with and thriving in uncertainty. And that's why he wrote the book, Masters of Uncertainty, which I've written a blurb in in the front of the book on his behalf because I believe in him in the book so much. Rich DeVinney, welcome back. Third time's a charm. Ed, thank you so much. It's great to see you my friend and I'm honored to be back and honored to be a friend. So thank you. Likewise brother. You start the book, I don't usually even do interviews like this. By the way, you can read this book in a day if you choose to everybody, but it's beefy enough

and has enough information that it's worthy of your time as well. But he starts the book with a story that not everybody in the world would be capable of telling, but he can. So you start the book with the Bin Laden raid, where the book literally opens up. Why'd you do that?

I guess it's illustrative of an uncertain moment, but let's talk about that raid and then the lessons from it. Yeah, it's well, it's both illustrated in of an uncertain moment. But let's talk about that raid and then the lessons from it. Yeah, it's well, it's both illustrated in as an uncertain moment. But it's also when it comes to spec ops missions, it's kind of the most well known mission. So it's, it's widely known, it's widely talked about, it was something I could talk about, which people kind of know the, they know what happened, and they know the outcome. And it's really more of a reminder to say, Hey, this was a mission that was even though it was quick, in terms of time that the unit was tasked till time of operation, there was tremendous amount of time spent on rehearsals planning, this is what we're going to do, this is the angles, these are everything's we're going to happen, this is what's going to happen. And as soon as they hit the target, things went out the window. Helicopter crashed and they had to now improvise.

And I think it's just a testament to the fact that SEALs or Spec Ops folks, we just live in this world of uncertainty, challenge and stress. And we are in fact, our mantra, our superpowers, the fact that we can actually thrive in uncertainty, challenge and stress. And so that's why I felt like the mission was a good one to open with. It's really good. There's all these terms in the book and some of them reminded me

of previous conversations. So what I want to do today is kind of layer a few things conceptually because it kind of gets to the root of your work and even something I remember way back when on one of the shows we did, I was talking about peak performance. And you know, yeah, that's good. I'm using my phraseology, but what we really are looking for is optimal performance. And so before you start to answer these things, you guys, your job when you're hearing an interview, because not all of you are leading elite military teams, but you are leading a life and a family and a business and more than ever times are uncertain.

And your ability to have some of these concepts at your disposal could literally make or break your business, your family, or your life. So what's the difference between peak performance and optimal performance? Because that's a good place to at least lay the first foundation. I think it's a terrific place.

And then the idea is that peak, and I was pressed with this question even when I was in the teams doing work like this. And peak, and people used to say, you Navy SEALs are the ultimate peak performers. And I used to disagree with that statement. And the reason is because peak, by definition, is an apex. And there's only one place you can go from an apex,

and that's down. The other thing about peak performance is that often it has to be planned for, scheduled, and prepared for. The professional football player plans and schedules The other thing about peak performance is that often it has to be planned for, scheduled, and prepared for. The professional football player plans and schedules his entire week so that he can peak for three hours on Sunday. Well, Navy SEALs don't get to do that. We don't get to do that as regular human beings.

We have to perform with what we've got. So I used to say we are optimal performers. Optimal performance means I'm going to do the very best in a moment, whatever the best looks like in that moment. So sometimes our best moment looks like peak, and it's flow states and everything's clicking and everything's grooving and cool. Sometimes our best in the moment, however, is I'm just head down, slogging it out because that's all I have right now and it's dirty.

And it's gritty and it's ugly and it's hard and that is still performing optimally. And so optimal performance allows us to very important things. First of all, it allows us to celebrate those times when we are not at peak, when we are slogging it out, and it's gritty, and it's dirty, and it's ugly, and it's hard. I can't tell you, Ed, how many missions we went on, and we get back from the mission, and we're like, man, that was ugly.

But we still got the job done, right? The other thing optimal performance allows us to do is what I call responsible energy management. In other words, I don't need to be peak when I'm driving to the grocery store. I can be at some other energy level. And a myth I'll bust about Navy SEALs because people might have seen it in TV and movies

is you might see a group of SEALs getting ready to go on a mission, and right before they do, they huddle up like a sports team and they're hoo-yahing and high-fiving like they're getting ready to take the field. I'm telling you that never happens, okay, never. In fact, a lot of times we'd be in helicopters flying into combat and the guys around me would be napping.

They'd be asleep. And there's a reason for that. We don't know what's coming. We don't know how long we're gonna be out there. We don't know what's gonna be required of us energetically. We don't wanna waste an ounce of our energy doing things we don't need to do. So optimal performance can be thought of as this umbrella

underneath which peak lives and gutting out lives and even recovery lives and we're constantly modulating ourselves inside of that umbrella so that we're optimizing what we need in the moment. You know guys when you listen to people that come from a background like Rich's you'd think that there'll be some things today that'll just sound like kind of written leadership principles you know that's not Rich's work. We're actually gonna get into breathing, your neurochemistry today. Like this is not the guy you picture, trust me. I've always wanted to ask you this, but I'll frame it under something that's in the book. Now I didn't, I wanted to ask you the first time I interviewed you, I didn't get a chance. So first off,

the question is gonna fall under the predictability paradigm part of the book, okay. But I want to ask it to you a little bit differently and then you just First off, the question is going to fall under the predictability paradigm part of the book. Okay? But I want to ask it to you a little bit differently than you just figure your way through it. I always wanted to ask you the transition out of your former life in the military to a civilian life. You are seemingly a normal person, like what you just said. So in the seals and we have a mission and then my mind flashes, you know what you just said. So in the seals, when we have a mission, and then my mind flashes,

you know what I just thought of when you said that? The things this man has seen and experienced in his life compared to all of us listening is so different. And for you to say that like a mission, but then I know enough from knowing you and some of the other guys to know a little bit of, you have literally had a seat in life that is it's unbelievable the things you've seen and done so transitioning out of that life to now

you're living in an apartment or a house and you're going to the grocery store every day I want can you talk about that transition and also what the predictability paradigm is because I have to imagine even in that transition you had some idea of what you thought it would be like and it couldn't it must have been a little bit different anyway. It's always different and I think transition for anybody is going to be difficult. I think there's a distinct reason why so I will say I will say this first of all I think I'm very fortunate I was able to transition fairly smoothly. And I think there are a couple reasons for that. I think one of the reasons is because I was ready to. I mean, it was 21 years in the Navy. I had deployed my ass off. I had been away from my family

for a long time. I had no real interest in going up in the ranks and continuing to be away. And so I was ready. I had accomplished all of the goals in the teams that I'd set out to accomplish. And I think that's a big piece. I think guys who made it out prior to be able to say that may have some issues. I think one of the big factors, though, on healthy transition is it actually gets into one of the chapters of the book, and that is identity.

Identities and the identities that we collect for ourselves through a lifetime can be very powerful. And so one of the concepts is this idea of understanding identities and that as human beings we actually as we go through life collect different identities. They could be really small to very serious. I went to this high school. I was a lacrosse player. I'm an 80s seal.

I'm a husband father. I'm a Metallica fan. Whatever those identities we collect, they come with them some rules and biases that drive our behavior because we have to behave in a certain way to be part of that identity. All this to say is that we will tend to prioritize or behave towards those identities we prioritize, those most powerful identities. My two identities, my two most powerful identities were, you can imagine Navy SEAL, yes, but also husband father. Now, for me, I always prioritized husband and father above Navy SEAL. However, often that's a lot

of times the Navy would be like, Nope, you got to prioritize Navy SEAL. Of course, when I go deploy overseas, Navy SEAL becomes a predominant identity. But there were times even in a SEAL mission where something would happen. And to address that specific situation appropriately, you'd shift to your father, husband identity, right? Maybe there's some civilians you have to take care of. So you'd shift. All this to say is when I got out, and when anybody gets out from a profession such as this, there is an enormous dearth in that loss of identity. And the SEALs, it's a little bit different. I think the Marines, the Marines are, you hear the Marines, once a Marine, always a

Marine. And that's very true. I mean, you can meet 90-year-old guys and they still want to be called gutterie sergeant, right? And that's a beautiful way that they've managed that, the Marine Corps. The SEAL teams are different. The SEAL team mantra when you're in the teams is earn your trident every day.

And as soon as you get out, you're not earning your trident every day. So you're not a Navy SEAL. All of us are former Navy SEALs. And all of my buddies and some of whom you know and are close to will agree. Don't call me a Navy SEAL. I am a former Navy SEAL.

But I will say, I was able to, with the ability to put that identity, or I guess the necessity of putting that identity on the shelf, I fell back on my most powerful identity, husband, father. And from that base, I was able to ask myself, okay, what's a new identity I want to build? And I set about building a new identity,

author, entrepreneur, businessman, whatever that is, all those things I'm working on. But I think the healthiness and transition is really very intimately tied to those identities you carry and those identities you prioritize. And I think some of the folks that I see who are having issues, they lose that very powerful identity and they don't have anything to fall back on. And so I think it's important for people who are in that situation to A, remember some of the identities they already have because we all have a lot of them, but B, make a very conscious, deliberate decision to build a new

identity. And this is something that's going to take work effort, but it's a mountain that someone has to climb. And most folks who are coming out of the military are used to climbing tough mountains. There's so much meat on the bone in the book, you guys, that he and I can go detailed here and we're going to give you 10% of the book, just so you know. So did you use the, because this is what I sent this part of the book to my son who just called when we were starting, but because he's starting something new. He's a golfer and very different than a bin Laden raid, but every time you tee off on a golf tournament, there's a ton of uncertainty, right?

You don't know where that first shot's gonna go. You don't know what the wind's gonna start blowing. You don't know what the other guys are gonna shoot. You don't know how much sand is in a sand trap when you're laying in there, if you gotta lie. And so in the book, you unveil the uncertainty method. So I sent it to them. And there's six steps to this method.

Did you use any of that in your transition? And can you share with them what that is? Because I think this right here, if they just get this out of the interview, they walk away completely different than they started. Yeah. Well, so the answer is absolutely. I think I absolutely used these techniques in everything I do because it just was hyperdeveloped in my career as a SEAL. So let's just go through. I mean, the six things one has to understand about oneself to master uncertainty or even just to begin to practice it are first, the physiology around uncertainty

itself. In other words, what are those things we need to do neurologically and physiologically to step through uncertainty? How does our brain operate and define uncertainty? And we'll get I know we're gonna get into that. I was going to get through the six steps. The second one is how do we manage our chunks as we're moving through uncertain environments and manage our dopamine,

because that's a huge, powerful neuromodulator that's affecting our ability to perform. Third one is to keep doing it, right? So how do we, in So, so how do we, how do we? In other words, how do we buy maybe I'm getting a mix up. So the first one is neurology. Second one is managing our autonomic response through breath work. Third one is managing our dopamine. Okay. Fourth one is for the next three are understanding things about ourselves. So what do we have to know about ourselves so that we can effectively know how we're going to operate when the shit hits the fan? Okay, first one is attributes.

And we've you and I have gone talked about attributes. It was the first book, but if we don't understand our each but our attributes define our performance at our most gross, we have to understand that. Second one is our identities, which I just kind of described what identities are you need to the situation. And the third one is the objectives, what are the objectives that we hold These are what you need to the situation. And then the third one is the objectives. What are the objectives that we hold true that we're moving towards? Because that will affect our performance.

So these six factors are, in fact, what we have to understand about ourselves to master this. Now, getting into the neurology, I think let's get to the most important part. Because I think for people to understand how to apply this, let's talk about this. First of all, I will say that to compare golfing in a Bin Laden raid is actually not that much of a stretch.

And I'll tell you why. It's because human beings, we all experience fear and uncertainty differently. And specifically when our autonomic arousal, those things that allow our autonomic arousal to go up are subjective to the human being. You could have a group of Navy SEALs in a gunfight with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and they can in that moment literally be feeling less fear and uncertainty

than the eight-year-old you just asked to step in front of the classroom and introduce themselves. So what we have to understand is this is all human stuff. It's not Navy SEAL stuff. It's not so we So I never judge anybody's uncertainty levels. So if someone is starting a golf tournament, they are actually having to manage a level of uncertainty and fear and physiological response. That is, it could be quite large and even more than I may have to manage jumping out of an airplane at 22,000 feet. So there's no judgment there.

What we also have to understand is is what our brains are in fact doing when we enter into uncertainty. Okay, so so when we're when we're when we start getting into an environment, our brains are automatically trying to figure out three factors of our environment. Those three factors are duration, how long is this thing gonna last, pathway, what's our route in out or through, And then outcome? What's happening at the end? Okay, if we are in absence of one or more of those, we begin to feel uncertainty and stress. Okay, so just get you and I go, I'll give a very simple example that everybody can understand. Okay. Imagine I you or me, we get strep throat, okay. strep throat is a known disease, right? There's a known antibiotic that you can take for it.

So we get strep throat, we're gonna get an antibiotic and we know people don't really die from strep throat, right? So we are in absence of only duration, okay? So we know the outcome, we know the path, we just don't know duration, mild uncertainty, mild stress. Imagine we get the flu, okay? Well, the flu is now something that's a virus, there's no real known cure for the flu. You can't take an flu, okay? The flu is now something that's a virus. There's no real known cure for the flu.

There's no, you can't take an antibiotic, right? So now we're in absence of how long it's gonna last duration and we're absence of our pathway. We have some, you know, maybe I'll put a hot compress or whatever, but we don't know how long, we don't know what the route is, but we know the outcome because unless you're, you know, elderly or have other symptoms, you're probably not gonna die

from the flu and at least not in today's environment. So we're in absence of two, mild to moderate uncertainty. Now imagine we all get hit with a pandemic, and it's a virus that no one's seen before. There's no cure for it that's known, and there are people dying from it. And we don't know if we're going to know what's happened to us. This might sound very familiar to all of us, i.e. 20, okay? Now we're in absence of all three, duration, pathway, outcome.

Now we're in deep uncertainty, challenge, and stress. And so the technique becomes, when we want to start to operate and move through uncertainty, challenge, and stress, can we create our own duration, pathway, outcome? And this is the concept of moving horizons. Well, here we go. I tell you guys, this is why I want this is why I want him on rich told me about this work he was doing the last time we talked. He said, I'm really

excited about some stuff I'm doing right now. It's sort of some of my seal stuff with with brand new technology as it comes to the brain breathing, etc. So let's talk a little bit about that. Just like, just take a continuation of where you just finished off. What does one do from there? Yes, so, and by the way, this is so, and we're both, our mutual friend, Andrew Huberman, he and I, we first got together, what,

seven or eight years ago, and he was kind enough to write the foreword. We started figuring this out. He was studying fear in a lab at Stanford. He wanted to understand what seals actually do in the field and so what we deconstructed was well what happens is we actually start doing this process called moving horizons okay and what that is is essentially creating your own duration pathway outcome or dpl here's a quick example again and you and i can go through multiple but here's a quick one in seal training buds

basic underwater demolition seal training six months long 90% attrition rate okay you spend hundreds of hours running around with big heavy boats on your head you do this all the time especially during hell week i remember it was during hell week it was i don't know some god-awful time in the morning two in the morning or whatever we're on the beach running with this damn boat on our head and we've been doing it for hours and we don't know how long we're gonna be doing it it's insane i'm miserable i remember at that moment saying to myself and we're by the way we're on the beach we're gonna be doing it. It's insane. I'm miserable. I remember at that moment saying to myself, and we're by the way, we're on the beach, we're next to the sand berm, okay?

And I remember saying to myself, you know what? I'm just gonna focus on getting the end of the sand berm. And what I didn't realize I did unconsciously was I created, I picked a horizon and in essence created my own DPO. Duration from now until end of sand berm, pathway from here to end of sand from now until end of sand berm pathway from here to end of sand berm outcome and a standard. Okay.

As soon as I did that, I create a DPO, I create a certainty in my environment, something to move towards. As soon as I hit the end of that sand berm, I in fact received a dopamine reward because I just accomplished something which allowed me to come back out and pick a new horizon. Right. And so really all all the this is all the trick, the secret, and this is secret to making it through

SEAL training, by the way, is to constantly pick horizons and move through stress and uncertainty. Couple caveat, couple caveats, we have to understand is that these horizons are very subjective to both the individual and the intensity of the environment. In other words, the more intense the environment, the shorter that horizon is likely going to be. I remember being freezing, freezing in the surf zone, just surf torque, your waves just hitting you, just freezing. And I remember saying to myself, I'm just going to count five waves. That was my horizon in the moment. Okay, by picking the appropriate horizon, we get into this other concept of managing our dopamine reward system. In other words, if we pick a horizon that's too short,

we're not going to feel the reward from it. We're not going to get the reward. If we pick a horizon that's too long, we're going to run out of dopamine before we ever get there and we were going to quit. This is why we have to actually pick the right horizons is very subjective. But what this is, Ed, is this is a neurological equivalent to eating the elephant one bite of at a time and that's where... Okay guys we're now talking about some of the most powerful stuff we've talked about on this show in a very long time. I start taking theories when people feed them to me on the show or I've read them in my book and I put them through my life experience meter, my BS meter, my whatever

meter you want to call it. And you all know that one of the most important decisions that ever happened in my life was my father's decision to get sober. And what he did in that program he was in was he changed the horizon. Rich, I'll never forget when my dad got sober, I said, dad, are you never going to drink again? My dad said, I can't promise you that. He changed the horizon.

And he said, I'm not gonna drink for one more day at a time. And what that happened is he shrunk the horizon of time like that Berm you were in front of. And my father's life, he was able to get that hit at every single day because it was the appropriate horizon, it was something he could manage. And he sustained it for 35 years of his life, eating that elephant of sobriety one day at a time, one horizon at a time.

Hard question, I guess, maybe there's an unknown answer to it. How does one know what the appropriate horizon is relative to the task at hand or the stress at hand? Is there any way of calibrating? It certainly is an experimental game. However, I think if someone's if someone's with it and under this is why I love trying to articulate this stuff because as soon as you articulate it, people can start

thinking about it as they do it. And so I think a couple of things gonna happen either one you pick a horizon that's too short, you get there, it's like, oh, I actually that was too short, you know it right away, because you don't feel the reward. If however, you get there, it's like, oh, I actually that was too short, you know it right away, because you don't feel the reward. If however, you've accidentally picked something that's too long, then in those moments, if you start to feel yourself burning out, because that's what it's gonna feel like, you're so kind of wavering, take a shorter

horizon immediately adjust your horizon, okay, and and you can start to experiment that way. Because I think it's it's one of those things that you can really play with because what you're doing, and oh by the way this lends itself to the second concept of the three, at least in the six, okay, and that is managing our own autonomic arousal. And what we're talking about here is when we get autonomically aroused, i.e. and then the fear, the amygdala starts to get tickled and the fear response starts to enter into our system, what happens slowly is our frontal lobe, our conscious decision making part of our brain

begins to start to take a back seat and our limbic brain starts to come to the forefront. In the most extreme cases, this is autonomic overload or amygdala hijack. And in those cases, what's happened is our frontal lobe, our decision, conscious decision making part of our brain has moved all the way back and we are now limbic focused and we are acting without thinking. Okay, now this comes in very handy for things like jumping out of the way of a moving train or pulling your hand off a hot stove

or something like running from the bear. But it doesn't come in handy for 99% of the other things that happen where we actually want to be able to make conscious decisions and thought processes as we go through it. So at the minimum, what picking horizons does what this process does is it immediately puts your frontal lobe back in charge, it gives you control of the environment. And you're stemming this, this, this tendency or

this process of the limbic brain trying to take over by consciously thinking through the environment. And people, once people start to actually engage their conscious thought and do this, they find a new sense of superpower in terms of their ability to manage what's going on. And I'm glad you brought up your dad because what, here's the great news Ed, is that every single one of us human beings has done this. We all do this. The idea is start to think about when you've done it, start to put it together, and now start to do it more deliberately. Because if we start to do it deliberately, that means we can practice it. You

start practicing it and you do it enough, you start doing it without thinking. And this is where the Navy SEALs are. We do this stuff without thinking. And that's where you want to get. And the coolest thing about this, and the reason why I'm excited to get this out is because if one can practice and start doing this without thinking, guess what happens? You start deliberately stepping into uncertainty and that's where growth lies. You start to grow as a human being. You start to say, I'm going to pick the next new challenge and I'm going to go for it because you know exactly what you need to do.

And so it's an encouragement for people to just start growing as human beings doing the incredible doing the Going for their dreams that seem unsurmountable. You can surmount anything just chunk it and choose your horizons Junking it's huge. You know, I it's always embarrassing when you have someone of Rich's caliber on the show and you do anything to compare or equate yourself, I always just feel embarrassed. I'm serious. And so to compare getting through buds or some raid somewhere in the middle of Afghanistan with a speech day of mine is rather hilarious, right? Having said that though, I just want to give everybody applications of these things. When I have days where I speak, I'm doing about everything I can during that day, especially if it's,

you know, 15, 20,000 people. I'm just thinking through to, to arrive at my optimal state when I hit that stage. And so I'm doing things energetically to concern myself. People probably think you do a lot of preparation those days. I actually don't. I don't look at my notes a lot. I don't look at too much stuff, because I feel like it's almost depleting me cognitively to some extent, you described how that's happening. But I like to arrive to that moment with every all my faculties at their best in that moment. So I will create structures and move horizons around, so to speak, for that

moment today, for example, not feeling well, I've got walking pneumonia, three podcasts. When I woke up this morning to look at a day of that is different to me, I just got ready for the first one. And then when it was done, I got that dopamine hit that you relate to it. I'm like, I'm actually ready for the next one. I recovered in between.

So I just wanna share the application because not all of us are doing the save the world things that Rich has done in his life. Let me add, first of all, to share the application because not all of us are doing the save the world things that Rich has done in his life. Let me add first of all, I did the same thing when I started public speaking. I did not like public speaking and I had to do the very same every lesson that I learned in the battlefield and the SEAL teams I used to public speak. So this is the same thing. You know, the other thing I want to make sure that people understand because you brought it up and I think it's

important is that Navy SEALs and those who are masters of a certain G, we never worry about that which we can't control because it's energetically very expensive. And so if I can't control it, I'm not going to worry about now. This does not preclude proper planning and preparation. Proper planning and preparation is something you do for your talks, I do for my talks, we did for our missions. We don't achieve paralysis through analysis. In other words, we don't try to over plan.

We just pick the couple things. Hey, I'm going to plan for this, plan for that. And then once we're in it, we don't worry about it until it happens. And that's very, very powerful in terms of hitting that stage with as much energy as possible because you have people don't understand how much energy they lose just by worrying about stuff that they can't control and we have to understand anxiety is all about the future stress is about the now anxiety is all about and you know the future is fiction the past is history the future is fiction we only have the now and so if you want to really maximize your energy in the moment

worry about the moment and that's it it It ruined my baseball career. I was a competitive college baseball player and beyond and my worry over preparation, stress, fatigue, I would show up by the time the first pitch gone absolutely exhausted physically. Legs gas, mentally gas and I remember telling myself this is not going to work for me when I go into business whatever it is I do a big sales presentation or a speech or a one on one and not only was it debilitating physically and mentally and a lot of you do this more than you realize. You're not at your optimal state but also it over time you're robbing yourself from the dopamine that Rich is describing, and eventually you convince yourself, I don't want to do this at all anymore. And then your very desire to prepare is gone, because you're getting no reward for doing so. So hey guys, I want to jump in here for a second and talk about change and growth. And you know, by the way, it's no secret how people get ahead in life or how they grow.

And also taking a look at the future. If you want to change your future you got to change the things you're doing. If you continue to do the same things you're probably going to produce the same results but if you get into a new environment where you're learning new things and you're around other people that are growth oriented you're much more likely to do that yourself and that's why I love Growth Day. Write this down for a second growthday.com forward slash ed. My friend Brendal Bruchard has created the most incredible personal development and business app that I've ever seen in my life.

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Use my let to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. Go to fastgrowingtrees.com for details. So let's talk about leadership because that's what I always think of when I think of you and in the book in segment three of the book guys by the way he talks about team dynamics and leadership and obviously dynamic subordination is this term that just stands out from the book and then you kind of flip it on its butt a little bit in the book, which surprised me. So what is dynamic subordination and what are your thoughts about it? Yeah. So dynamic subordination is quite literally the tax organizational structure for high

performing teams. That's where it is. And I was, you know, this came to me in a moment. I was being asked to buy some executives. I was in front of executives and I had a whiteboard or flip chart next to me. They said, hey, Rich, can you draw for us the task org shape that would describe a high performing team? And I was stumped because the models I had didn't tell the story. I could have done the pyramid with the leader on top and all the word goes down. I can't use that. It's too bureaucratic, too slow. I could have done the flat model, the flat line. We've all heard about that. No one ranks anybody. we're all in this together, it's all groovy. Problem with the flat

model is that, you know, sometimes it's difficult to figure out actually who's in charge and you can happen on the right side of that line that's not seen or heard by the left side of that line. In other words, information gets siloed in a flat model pretty easily and that's not what happens in a high-performing team. Finally, I had the Robert Greenleaf servant leadership model where he flipped that pyramid upside down, put the leader on the bottom, said, I'm in service to my people in my span of care. That's probably the most beautiful one, if I were to pick one, at least philosophically.

However, still not how a high performing team operates, because in a high performing team, burden is distributed. It's not all on one person. And so really largely in frustration, I drew a blob on the flip chart. And I said, where do you think the leader sits in this blob? And I got answers like front, back, top, bottom, center. I said, you are all correct. The leader is wherever the leader needs to be in the moment.

And this is what we call dynamic subordination. Dynamic subordination means that a team understands challenges and issues and problems can come from any angle at any moment. And when one does, the person who's closest to that problem and the most capable, immediately steps up and takes lead and everybody fall and supports. And then it switches, the environment switches and someone else steps up.

It's a dynamic swap between leader and follower. I also call it alpha hopping. That alpha position just hops to wherever it needs to be. This is how all high performing teams operate. And I say this, I was an officer in the SEAL teams, okay? I did hundreds of missions. I was in charge of every single one. It did not mean I was always being supported. In fact, most of the time was the opposite. I was supporting other people, my snipers, my breachers, my assaulters. Sometimes the environment shifted to be in support of me. All this tells us is that very important concept that our

position on a team has nothing to do with our rank or hierarchy. Our position on a team has everything to do with what we're there to contribute to the team. And as leaders, it's our job to create that dynamically subordinating environment so that we have the highest performing, most efficient teams possible. In order to hold that together though, you have to have trust amongst that team. Yes. And, well, I tell you, I'm thinking of some businesses that I'm involved with where we

had leaders that maybe not even been as dynamic or as talented, but they had really established trust and how we just flowed together as a group. And then other teams I've been on where there just wasn't that trust established by the leader. It just never got established. And no matter how talented we were, how prepared we were, long term we struggled. You talk about competence, consistency, character and compassion.

Of those, what do you think lacks most and why are all four important? Yeah, so competence and consistency are often what teams, especially in the business world, focus on because confidence is do the thing right. Consistency is do the thing right over time. Those are a large part visible and measurable. Skill and skills-based, I would even concede. The problem is you're missing two very important ones. Character is the next one.

And character is a big word. I'd break that down and maybe say integrity. So you have do the thing right in competence competence do the thing right over time in consistency Do the right thing in character and then finally you have compassion do the right thing because you care about me as a human being Okay Now you can build an environment of trust you could at least start building an environment trust inside of any one of those four elements It's only when you have all four that you have the longest lasting most durable trust. I'll give you a quick example. Okay, imagine you and I are out having dinner somewhere. We decide we have some drinks,

we decide we're not going to go home, we're not going to drive home. So we call a cab, the cab shows up, we jump in the cab, the cab rolls out within 100 meters runs into a telephone pole. We're not injured, we get out, we find we find our way home, no big deal. Okay, couple nights later, we're out again, we're having dinner dinner having some drinks. We decided not to drive home. We call a cab again Okay, the cab shows up. It's the same driver from the night before Are we gonna get back in the car with that driver? The answer is no or not But rewind that whole scenario you and I were out having dinner having drinks. We decide we're not gonna drive home We don't call a cab, we call our mother, father,

sister, spouse, brother, best friend, that person shows up, we jump in the car with that person, that person with 100 meters runs into a telephone pole. A few days later, we need to get back in the car with that person. And now the answer is likely yes. Some people are like, nope, still not get in the car. But we also we probably will. And the reason is because of that second person we'd all for with the first person, the cab driver, we only had the first two, we had the consistency of the cab company, we had the perceived competence of the driver, as soon as competence took a hit, trust went away. With that second person, when competence took a hit, we had something to fall back on. And so so what we need to focus on is

building all four elements through our behaviors, okay, behavior, trust is a belief, trust is a trust is a belief. Trust is a feeling that's been rationally justified by that person. In other words, you cannot make anybody trust you. All you can do is behave in a way that allows someone to choose to make a decision to trust you. All this nonsense about someone coming in is like, I'll trust that person when they earn it or whatever that is.

That's nonsense. We as leaders have to go first in these behaviors and build that environment. Gosh, this is so good, you guys. This every time Rich is on. So there's two things you're always doing. See how I go guys? Like we just keep going with them.

There's two things you're always doing even if you don't realize it. You're always breathing and you're asking, you're actually also always thinking. And thinking is the process of asking and answering questions to yourself. That's really what a thought is. And so when we last talked to Mike, this is gonna be good because now I doubt, maybe I'm wrong, I doubt when you were a SEAL you were into maybe, well probably not true in the

water you were, but overall I doubt breathing techniques were the number one thing you were focusing on every single day. So yeah, good. So that assumption is accurate. So talk to us about activating our optimal neurology through either questions or breathing or both and take as long as you want on it. Because this is guys, this is almost like pull the car over stuff right here. Yeah, yeah. So the breathing. So one of our one of our pathways into

our autonomic response, our autonomic nervous system, if you will, is the respiratory system, we have a visual and respiratory system connected directly to the vagus nerve. And we can quite literally shift our, our physiology from sympathetic, which is our action state to parasympathetic, which is rest and digest, just through breathing alone or through visual tools. Breathing is very interesting because breathing you can actually use to modulate your autonomic response up, down, or even keep it neutral. So a couple ways to do that. So if you want to up your autonomic response, you want to get more excited, get more engaged. Okay, that's, you know, Wim Hof does this type of

reading Breath of Fire, things like that you, you are you are inducing some autonomic response. And there's some techniques in the book, you can do that. That's typically not what we're talking about when we're dealing with people in stress, challenge, uncertainty, because in stress, challenge, uncertainty, what's usually happening is our autonomic responses starting to go up too far. And we want to get it back down. So we can to get it back down

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The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash my let. Netsuite.com slash my let. So a couple of ways, well, one of the ways you can do that is you can do what's called CO2 blowout breathing. Okay, in other words, you're blowing out carbon dioxide. Why does this matter? One of the things that people don't recognize is that when we're say underwater or holding our breath, okay, that that discomfort that stress that we feel is not

because of a lack of oxygen. It's actually in fact, they because of a buildup of co2. Now people like free divers and some seals understand this. In other words, you can push past that discomfort because you have different oxygen reserves in your system. This is what free divers do. That's how they can hold their breath for nine minutes as they know how to push past that discomfort because you have different oxygen reserves in your system. This is what freedivers do. That's how they can hold their breath for nine minutes as they know how to push past that discomfort and start accessing the oxygen reserves in other part of their body. I do not recommend this. This is very dangerous because what happens is as soon as you push past that first warning sign you don't get another warning sign. In other words you'll just go out okay.

So I don't want anybody to try this at home all right unless you're a freediver you do it right. But all this to say is that buildup of co2 is which causing the stress and so what we can do is we can literally begin to blow out our co2 and begin to de stress just through breath. One of the best ways to do this is called the physiological sigh. All is is a deep inhale, and then up on top. And then a really slow exhale for you know, eight to 10 seconds. So deep in. So is that a breathe top and then a really slow exhale for, you know, eight to 10 seconds. So deep in.

So is that a breathe in and then another one? Yeah, breathe in and then a top off breathe in. So a nice fast breathing. Top off. Nice, slow exhale. You do that two, three, four, five times. You will literally feel yourself calm down. You're bringing your autonomic arousal down.

You're bringing your frontal lobeousal down, you're bringing your frontal lobe back online in a position where you can start moving and picking horizons. Okay. The other breathing technique I talked about, and many people have heard about this is box breathing. Okay, box breathing is in fact a technique that if you are at a perfect level of autonomic arousal, we might be like maybe you and I we just got on stage, we're like, look, I'm right here. I don't want to get any

more nervous, but I don't want to get any more nervous, but I don't want to get in less. I'm really, I'm charged. I'm right where I want. Box breathing is a great way to do this. Box breathing is simply, you're going to breathe in for a period. So say four or five seconds.

I say five seconds. You're going to hold on top for five seconds. You're going to exhale for five seconds and then you're going to hold on the bottom for five seconds. It's literally just a square box. You can pick whatever timing you want in any of those lanes, whatever is comfortable for you. But if you do box breathing, it actually keeps you at your autonomic level and allows you

to actually engage at the state you're in. You breathe through the mouth, do you reach through the mouth or the nose or both? Usually, usually it's breathe in, breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth, but it doesn't really matter. Okay. To the extent possible in through the nose, out through the mouth, but it doesn't really matter. OK? To the extent possible, in through the nose, out through the mouth, but it doesn't matter. So this is the way we can actually

start to manage and manipulate our autonomic arousal. Once we do that, once we are able to do that, and our frontal lobe comes back online, and now we're in business, because now we can start asking better questions. Because you and I talk about this technique of asking better questions when we first talk. And like you said, our brains are question answering machines

All we're doing all day long is just asking questions about our environment often unconsciously. It's picking out. Okay, what do I mean? What's the duration pathway outcome? Do I understand it? If you understand if you're getting answers, you feel great if you're not getting answers, you're confused. You might feel uncertain All right All this to say is if we if we were whenever we consciously place a question into our conscious mind Whatever that question is our brain begins to come up with answers A lot of times we do this the wrong way. We say things like why am I so bad at this? Why did this always happen to me?

Why are these people out to get me as soon as you place that question in your brain? You're to come up with some spectacular answers as to why you're so bad at this or why people are out to get you It's inevitable to say why am I so pissed off? You're to come up with some spectacular answers as to why you're so bad at this or why people are out to get you. It's inevitable. Just say, why am I so pissed off? You're gonna come up with some spectacular answers as to why you're pissed off. All my performers do is they flip the script on the questions. They ask better questions, they get better answers.

They say things like, what am I good at? Who's out there that can help me? How can I make it through this? What can I focus on in this moment? What horizon can I pick? And you will begin to get answers to that question? This is the you know, it's funny because we are Physically, we do this all the time we go where we pay attention to you know I think you and I do at one point in fact

I think when we were together at one point when I gave a talk we were talking about driving I love having I love everything about driving and It'd be anything to drive, motorcycles, boats, cars, whatever. So I yell in the teams, you get to go to driving and racing schools. And I signed up for every racing school I possibly could. When you go to a racing school, the first thing they teach you is how to get out of a spin or how to get out of when your car starts to lose control. And the first thing they tell you is never look at the wall, because if you look at the wall, you're going to hit the wall, you know, so are in literally be facing the wall, but you look at the wall, you're going to hit the wall, you know, so or And literally be facing the wall But you have to be looking where you want to go because your body will start your start steering towards that

So all we're doing neurologically with with asking better questions We were neurologically steering our focus and once you steer your focus man, you're in business so you can do really anything So good, but guys one thing I love love about Rich is that I think he humanizes elite performance. And obviously, he has an unusually high IQ. He would not admit that himself, but he does. And his temperament is really, really special. But you're behind the scenes now. If you've ever wondered how these special operator guys think and work and navigate through their lives, they have similar fears or anxieties just like you do. Maybe they're not similar, but they have them.

And I'm just curious as an aside, just as an aside, you and I are both sort of doing a lot of work in our lives on this parasympathetic, sympathetic state stuff, right? It's kind of like the new frontier in performance and happiness and longevity and heart rate variability and all this stuff that you and I are learning and growing into. Do you do any other hack stuff with it? I'm curious. Do you use like a pulsetto or one of those new Vana devices? Do you, and most people don't even know what I'm describing.

I'm not endorsing a device. I'm just curious beyond breathing and questions and meditation, are you doing any of these hack devices? Do you you doing any of these hack devices? Do you believe in any of them? Use them? I've experimented with some of them. The bio stuff that I'm using, I have the Aura Ring, which I love, because I want to monitor my sleep.

I have a GPS watch that kind of shows how far I want. I have gotten very good at controlling my own levels of, I just don't get stressed out. I just know, and I think obviously I got, you know, as hyperdevelop developed again as a team guy so so so I don't find myself needing to defer to some of these more conscious techniques because I just automatically it's not we just We automatically calm down. Here's a funny story. Yeah, I live in there. I live in I'm in Virgin Beach

I've been in the same house for 23 years my wife and I and we've been married the whole time Right and and across across the street from us as a seal lives a Navy Seal is down the street to the left There's a Navy Seal and down the street to the right. There's a Navy Seal And so I I remember Kristen saying, you know, I love that these guys are in the neighborhood And I said why it's just because if anything if you weren't here anything went wrong I know I could go to them and they'd act like you act. And I said, what do you mean by that? It's like, as soon as something happens,

as soon as the shit hits the fan, all you guys do is you immediately calm down and you start solving the problem. You take it step by step. And so, all this to say, I've experimented with some of that stuff. I very highly recommend, there's breathing apps. I mean, the more people can practice this consciously, the more you create

the unconscious competence and you do it in times without even thinking. And so if there's something new to you, then go make conscious effort to practice them and stuff, whether it be breathing, whether it be DPOing and shifting horizons, because the more you do it, you'll begin to achieve an unconscious competence. And so you'll start hitting uncertainty or uncertainty will hit you and you'll just start moving the way you need to. And of course, like you said that the collateral that is you'll start picking deliberate steps into your discomfort, your uncomfortable zone and start growing as a human being. You really believe your language can override your thought. In other words, in the book you put forward this I am statement stuff.

Yeah. And so I want to ask you about that. It's the part of the book, you put forward this I am statement stuff. Yeah. And so I wanted to ask you about that. It's the part of the book where I've struggled in my own life, believing my own language. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about this so you can help me with it. But you push in the book, push, suggest I am statements and how that that can begin to create the identity and maybe by the way I do more of that to my benefit

Unconsciously than I realize you know, maybe I'd maybe I must have I guess because it works So talk about I am statements and how it correlates with identity because we we moved off identity earlier But I want to give everybody the tool as well Yeah I was at a minimum what an am statement does is it focuses your attention. Anything we put, I always kind of say that the two most powerful words in the human language are I am, because whatever you put after those two words

is where you focus your behavior. I am a father. I am a Navy SEAL. I am whatever. I'm a smoker, right? I mean, we've heard about people quitting habits like this by just saying, I am not a smoker. So, at a minimum, what an I am statement does is it focuses your attention appropriately.

However, neurologically, this is also true. And, you know, like Andrew Huberman will talk about this, this part of the brain is called the the anterior mid cingulate cortex. Okay, it's a, it's just song talking about this goat. This is great. It's a part of the brain that allows human beings to do hard stuff. And if we're not doing hard stuff, it actually shrinks. If we're doing hard stuff, it actually grows. But one of the things one of the techniques that he talks about is that you can literally be doing hard stuff and say to yourself, I love this stuff. I love this stuff and be lying to yourself And if you do it enough your brain will start to believe that you actually love it So so I am a hundred percent believer in the fact that our words and our thoughts focus our Attention and can in fact change the outcome by by by even neurologically

I believe the reverse is also true guys when you're doing something that Didn't work out or doesn't serve you to use your language to separate yourself from it so that it doesn't become a part of your identity just to kick in here a little bit so like with my golfers that I work with I'll just share this in front of rich and I'll ask another question but when they putt if you've ever played golf usually when you miss a putt when you say I suck I can't putt blah blah blah and believe it or not even elite professional players do this and they'll miss a putt shit I suck, I can't putt, blah, blah, blah. And believe it or not, even elite professional players do this and they'll miss a putt.

Shit, I suck. And they're actually reinforcing this part of their identity with their language. And so if you just simply say when you miss the putt, that's not like me. That's not like me. That's not like me. You bang a drive to the left out of bounds.

That's not like me. And believe it or not, if you repetitively do this with your language, it's that powerful. I am or I am NOT are powerful language statements now obviously your brain is accepting the I am statements much easier if you understand how the mind works that it is an I am NOT statement but when you separate from something with your language as well and even when you have

a disagreement with your spouse that's not like me I shouldn't talk like that I don't talk like that it's a there's a separator let you this, bro, because we're gonna run out of time and there's, there's way too much stuff in the book. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, traditional in-person therapy can cost anywhere from a hundred to two hundred fifty dollars a session, but with BetterHelp online therapy, you can save an average of about fifty percent per session. And seriously, you guys, it could be the best investment you ever make. People ask me all the time, what all your guests have in common from the athletes

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H-e-l-p dot com slash ed show to get 10% off your first month. That's better help H-e-l-p dot com slash ed show What's what's a practical application of Something we've covered here so far someone walks into I mean, I think almost everyday life is uncertain For most people what is one, someone listening to this right now goes, I heard everything these guys said, I got breathing stuff, I've got moving my horizons, I've got my language, I've got all these different things. What's something I didn't ask you that should be in here

and we had a great, we've messed the conversation up if we didn't cover it. Well, yeah, that's a great, here's what I would say, is uncertainty by definition cannot be predicted. So it'd be impossible for you or I to give examples that people could lean upon in terms of using this. The great news is you can start using and practicing this stuff in fairly certain environments. We do this by the way when we work out. Okay, I was on that was this morning on Mondays I go there's a huge hill here in Virginia Beach

I basically put on a 40 pound weight vest. I run up the hill. I do sprints up the hill. I was DP on us. I was I was picking horizons as I go up that hill, you know, because I because it's it really is. When you're working out, you could pick horizons if you want to get healthy. And you know, I eat right, you know, don't talk about you know what, I'm gonna start Monday, I'm gonna eat healthy for the next six months. No, no, no, no. Start Monday and eat healthy for breakfast. That's your first horizon. And then you say, you know what, my next horizon might be lunch, my next horizon might start experimenting with some of the distances on these things and getting good at this idea of picking horizons and creating DPOs. And it becomes habitual,

you'll start doing it everywhere. And so you'll begin to, at a minimum, take some of that mundane stuff, and actually start to make it more palatable and in some cases more fun just by using this technique and the collateral effect of that is when uncertainty in fact hits, you'll start to do it, you'll say, Okay, what do I know, can I control? Here's where I'm focused on, I'm gonna move to that. And then do that, you're moving the next thing. So, so the reason why I get jazzed about articulating the some of the stuff, even though I you know, you know, me now, I just love doing it. I love figuring this stuff out and putting words behind it, is again,

once you can say it, you can practice it. And once you can practice it, you can get good at it. And once you can get good at it, you can master it. And so in there become a master of uncertainty. I was thinking when you were talking earlier, this year's Super Bowl, everyone knows I'm sort of a Brady fan. We were neighbors for quite a while and he broadcasted the Super Bowl this year, Rich, where the Chiefs were getting beat really, really bad. And there was this ongoing conversation, hey, is Mahomes the GOAT or is, you know, which was ridiculous, of course, sorry, Chiefs fans. But having said that, that game got away from the Chiefs.

And I thought this is such a great analogy of horizons and moving horizons. Brady was asked afterwards what do you think happened because Brady was down 28 to 3 in a Super Bowl and came back and won it and he said he usually he literally used the word horizon. He said I think they tried to score all 20 points back on one possession. He said we were down 28 to 3, I changed the horizon. I just wanted to get a first down. It's okay to throw a screen pass and just move the ball three yards.

Now it's second and seven. Now it's a lot more manageable and to begin to chunk the game or to bite the elephant one at a time. If you look at almost anything you guys that you admire someone who's come back or someone's overcome something, they do exactly what Rich is describing. My dad's sobriety, Brady in a Super Bowl,

someone preparing for a big test they've gotten, seventh grade to get into eighth grade. These are the things you do that Rich has described here. So I just want to acknowledge the power of your work. Masters of Uncertainty guys, that's the title of the book. Let me ask you outside of the book. of your work. Masters of Uncertainty guys, that's the title of the book. Let me ask you outside of the book. You've had, I said earlier, I referenced, I want to just get into you here. The book is so good, he sold it to you guys today. If you didn't even read the book, your life's a thousand times better. You've had a view of life though, of leadership, of people you've led, of the world in general, that very few people have had. I always love your opinion, especially when the world is chaotic and stressed and uncertain as

it is, I guess, every day. But sometimes the light shines brighter on the uncertainty than other times. So whether you look at the economy right now with tariffs or you look at, you know, the geopolitical environment in the US, you look at the border, you look at Gaza and you look at Ukraine and Russia and Iran and China and the world. What is your view? Are you optimistic? Are you bullish on the world and the future? AI coming, all of this uncertainty, right?

Like I could keep going, right? Oh, you're right. AI coming. What is your overall worldview right now? And is it different than it was 10 years ago? Well, okay. So this is the second part of that question. I'm not sure if I know that it's, it likely is different.

I think, I think we change as we, as we mature and we grow older. So I, it would be tough to say how it's different, but it certainly is different. Here's what I'll say is, and regardless of anybody's politics, so you or your mind, you and I share a lot of the same views. I am someone who, once we have someone running our country or administration, I root for them. I want them to do great. I think that's what patriotism is. Patriotism also, though, is taking a hard look and being honest with your assessment of what's going on. And I will say that I am remaining optimistic because I think that there are some initiatives and directives that I think are worthwhile and are meaningful. I want to make sure that we as a nation are looking at what's going on,

both in our country and with geopolitically and all that stuff, and the way we're responding, and constantly asking ourselves, are we still doing the right thing? Are we still doing the right thing? Because the beauty of this country is we get, every two years, we get a chance to right thing because because the beauty of this country is we get every two years we get a chance to to vote our our vote our opinion or vote our conscious on this stuff and what I what I fear in today's society in today's politics is the polarization to the degree that some people are like hey that's my team and even though I believe these two issues I'm going to go all in on this side and none of us should go all in on any side. As Americans, it's our responsibility to not go all in on just one side.

It's our responsibility as Americans to look at things holistically and ask ourselves some really honest questions about how things are running. And I think if we do that, I'm optimistic about the fact that I think we will get some good stuff done and some good stuff will be done. And if we start to see that, that it's overspill or, or things are starting to go in a direction we don't want to, let's make a stand and let's vote a different direction. And let's find a different way to go. If we find things are going great, let's keep doing what we're doing. But overall, Ed, I, I, I remain optimistic because I think pessimism in my mind is energy expensive.

There's not a lot of value I can derive from pessimism. I can still, as an optimist, be skeptical. I don't think skepticism and pessimism are the same thing. I think skepticism is an honest look at questioning what's going on and thinking about answers and thinking about solutions. I think pessimism just veers towards negativity and is less valuable. So I will remain optimistic, but I will also remain a skeptic, a healthy skeptic and be looking at things very carefully as we move forward, staying engaged, staying positive, and also making sure I'm not getting drawn into either of the polarities.

Because if you're in those polarities, man, you're just no, you're lost. You are a sheep. If you're one of those polarities, you're a sheep. Even though you're accusing other people of being a sheep, you are a sheep. So stay out of the polarities. CY is one of my favorite people. You guys, I just get a sense of humans. And the minute that I met Rich, I liked him instantly.

I mean it instantly and Every time I'm around him is confirmed It's one of the things that as life gets busy and you get older When you initially meet somebody you think I'm gonna know them and be a lot closer to them And then eight years goes by and you're like I've only seen him a couple times You know, I enjoy his company very much and you can tell why I just think he's a bright mind and a good mind and a good man. And by the way, I've only written, I've probably been asked four or five hundred times. I've only

written an endorsement or a blurb and I think eight books ever. And when he called and asked me to, it was just, yes, I hadn't even seen the book. I'll be honest with you at the time. It was just because he had asked me to. And so I was honored to do it. And after reading the book, I'm really glad my name's in it. I'm honored that I'm in it and so Masters of Uncertainty everybody with Rich DeVinney. You don't hear conversations like this every day everybody. You have to hear him here and I'm very grateful for our friendship brother. Thank you for being here today. Thank you. I'm grateful and honored as well. So I look forward to the to all the future conversations. So

thank you. Ten out of ten. God bless bless everybody. Share today's episode. Max out. This is The Ed Myron Show.