THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Positive Thinking: How Changing Your Mindset Can Change Your Life Feat. Garrain Jones

Episode Date: February 15, 2025

The Secret to Transforming Your Life Starts in Your Mind What if the key to changing your entire life was as simple as shifting your mindset? In this episode, I bring together some of the most brilliant minds—Garrain Jones, Mauricio Umansky, Tom Bilyeu, and Tim Grover—to break down the undeniable power of your thoughts and how they shape your reality. Garrain Jones shares how forgiving those who hurt him, even the men who murdered his father, unlocked an entirely new level of freedom and success in his life. Mauricio Umansky reveals why financial success has nothing to do with wealth itself and everything to do with mindset. Tom Bilyeu exposes the lie that talent is enough and how he went from an "empty dreamer" to building billion-dollar businesses. And Tim Grover, the man who trained legends like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, explains why the obsession to win is what separates the best from everyone else. Each of these incredible minds offers a different perspective, but the message is the same: your mindset controls your reality. Whether it’s forgiveness, confidence, discipline, or the hunger to win, mastering your mind is the first step toward transforming your life. Key Takeaways: - Forgiveness is freedom – Letting go of resentment clears space for abundance. - Success doesn’t equal happiness – Your mindset determines your joy, not money. - Talent is a myth – Skills and success come from relentless effort, not natural ability. - Winners don’t just compete, they dominate – The greatest aren’t just good; they win at winning. - Your past doesn’t define you – Whether you were broke, doubted, or stuck, your mindset can rewrite your future. At the end of the day, success isn't reserved for the chosen few. It’s for those who make the decision to change, who commit to their growth, and who refuse to settle. Your mindset isn’t just a part of your journey—it is the journey. So, what are you doing today to start transforming your life? Thank you for watching this video—Please Share it and get the word out! What part of this video resonated with you the most? Comment below! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So hey guys, listen, we're all trying to get more productive and the question is how do you find a way to get an edge? I'm a big believer that if you're getting mentoring or you're in an environment that causes growth, a growth-based environment, that you're much more likely to grow and you're going to grow faster and that's why I love Growth Day. Growth Day is an app that my friend Brendan Burchard has created that I'm a big fan of. Write this down growthday.com forward slash ed. So if you want to be more productive, by the way, he's asked me, I post videos in there every single Monday that gets your day off to the right start. He's got about 5,000, $10,000 worth of courses that are in there that come with

the app. Also some of the top influencers in the world are all posting content and they're on a regular basis, like having the Avengers of personal development and business in one app. And I'm honored that he asked me to be a part of it as well and contribute on a weekly basis. And I do. So go over there and get signed up.

You're going to get a free tuition free voucher to go to an event with Brendan and myself and a bunch of other influencers as well so you get a free event out of it also. So go to growthday.com forward slash ed. That's growthday.com forward slash ed. Dell Technologies is celebrating with anniversary savings on their most popular tech. For a limited time only, save on select next-gen PCs like the XPS 16, powered by Intel Core Ultra processors and more. Plus, curate your dream setup with great deals on select monitors, mice and more must-have

electronics and accessories. When you shop online at dell.com forward slash deals, you'll have access to leading edge technology to match your forward thinking spirit and free shipping on everything. Again, that's dell.com forward slash deals. This is the Ed Mylet Show. Hey everyone, welcome to my weekend special. I hope you enjoy the show. Be sure to follow the Ed Mylet Show on Apple and Spotify.

Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. This man has now reached millions of people with his message and completely changed his life. So, Garen Jones, welcome to the show, my friend. Thank you for being brave enough to create a platform like this, so stories like mine have wings.

You talk about, here's some of the steps that you went through to start to turn your life around that you weren't doing prior. So I want you to just share some of these things. I'm gonna, not rapid fire, but I wanna talk about them. Voluntary discomfort, which included some phone calls you made to certain people too. I'm sure it was uncomfortable.

So just take a bow around that. Yes. So I didn't know that you can't change what you're not aware of, but I was changing and I didn't realize that it was rapidly changing my life. So everything I'm about to share with you is as I connect the dots looking backwards. I saw the power of apologizing to somebody for something that I did when I was seven years old

that I didn't know that she held. Like I hit this girl over the head with a backpack when I was seven, and then I messaged her like six years ago, and I was like, hey, kids do the stupidest things. I know you don't remember this, but I just wanna say that I'm sorry. She goes, number one, why did you do that?

I'm in tears right now. Two, what about me made you do that? Three, the same thing is happening to my kids and I don't know what to tell them. So it was that moment right there I was like, oh, people keep things. They remember how you make them feel. I wrote a list, and I didn't know it was gonna turn into as many people from kindergarten up to present date.

I wrote a list of 250 names of everyone that I had ever impacted negatively, thought of negatively, not even in the physical, thought negative thoughts. And anybody who had ever hurt me with the intention of apologizing for my part and not expecting them, whatever their response was their response, I was clearing myself,

I wanted to be truly free, because you can't fight for something that you can only give to yourself, which is internal freedom. The person who molested me, people who jumped me, but I held on resentment for 30 years, I was like, I just wanna apologize for, when we had that fight, I wanna apologize for holding resentment towards you for 30 years, I was like, I just wanna apologize for when we had that fight, I wanna apologize

for holding resentment towards you for 30 years. They're like, what are you apologizing for? We were the ones who jumped you. And I was like, but I held on to the resentment. That resentment affects me. And so I just wanna create the possibility of just having no negativity when I think of you. Sheesh. Instantly, freedom. Responsibility of just having no negativity when I think of you she instantly freedom so I did that

for 250 people up into present-date Including Forgiving the two men and I don't know where they are in the world Forgiving the two men who murdered my father wholeheartedly Simult, I'm watching all of this business come. I'm like, where are these people coming from? I forgive these two people, two new people come into my business.

I let go of this thing, this new thing. It's almost like this universal order of this magic trick. I do this. And, and I spoke to my spiritual advisor, Monica Zanz. She said, Garen, you released hate from your heart. These were all little subtleties of hate. So any level of resentment, and it doesn't matter what they do, the forgiveness is freedom. And letting go of resentment will complete the cycle. Brother. Whoa. Yeah.

One of the top things ever said on the show ever, ever, ever. Yeah. Out of a bazillion episodes. I'm convinced what that is, by the way, is that you're, um, when you have negative stored energy in your body, either through holding, we come back to that again, when you store it to your point, what either something you've done that you want to apologize for or forgiving someone else for trauma they've caused you, that energy is blocking you. And when you release that energy, your vibrational frequency increases tremendously and that's

when you begin to magnetize the things into your life. We've all had those moments where you're like, I was thinking of so and so and then they called me. That's when you're vibrating at a high frequency. But usually for most people, that is like once a year deja vu or some fluke thing. But you know this now that you're on the other side of it. When you do begin to live with this type of intention, when you are a vulnerable person,

that frequency increases and it's just unbelievable. Perhaps all these things were already there, but your reticular activating system was blocking you from seeing, feeling or hearing them, or perhaps they weren't there and now you're attracting them. But all I know is they've appeared in my life the last 30 years in ways that are what you would consider to be miraculous, which now has become habitual. Yeah.

Right? What was once miraculous is now habitual. And that can happen in everybody's life who takes some of the steps that we're talking about today, putting yourself through voluntary discomfort, doing uncomfortable things. But the apologies, the forgiveness, these are real things. The other thing that you say about vulnerability, and I want people to really hear this because there's different aspects we're going to talk about today that hit different people, but you're so right. I've only, I said

this 20 years ago, I haven't said it since, so I know you didn't get it from me, it's yours, but causing people to feel safe in your presence is one of the great keys of being a leader of anything, is that people can feel safe in your your great father, great mother, great brother, great sister, great business person, right? Great coach, great anything. People have a tendency to feel safe in your presence. And you say the pathway to that happening ironically is to be what man, there's, there's so much, there's so much to that. That's such a loaded question.

But when you accept who you really are. And are willing to share it. Yeah, and you're willing to share it. And you're willing to create this, it's like a pathway. There's an energy that just comes through you through the presence of vulnerability. Yes that level of openness It taps into the voiceless or the it taps into the voiceless part of you that you haven't yet given a voice and so this because you can't be what you can't see so the second that you

this because you can't be what you can't see. So the second that you, you talk about something that most people won't talk about and they can, they listen to who they relate to and then they can relate to it. Then all of a sudden that part of them that they haven't given a voice goes, I'm not alone. I learned this skill because in the scariest time of my life, where I'm still living in my car, I was still $200,000 in debt, I got tired of living a life trying to put on a mask or pretend to be what everybody else thought I should be. And I say, you know what? And then Rihanna's song, We Out Here Livin' A Lie had came on,

is like, out here livin' a lie. I couldn't get it out of my head. I was like, no more. True freedom is the power to possess your own mind and like use it in a way that uplifts yourself and other souls. Really good. That's really good. Drop the mic, boom. He paused because I about fell out right there. It's really good.

He paused because I about fell out right there. That's really good. Keep going. I went on Facebook and the post is on Facebook right now. I say, you think you know me? You have no idea. Here's what you know. You know, this, this, this and this, you know I've dated this person, you know I was in this music

video 15 years ago. You know this because this is what I told you But what it really is right now, I'm two hundred thousand dollars in debt. I'm living in my car I've cheated on every girlfriend I ever had as I have no relationship with my family And I just put it all out the scariest moment of my, first message I got was from a stranger. I said, how did you have that kind of strength? When I read your testimony, I put the gun down. Mm.

I put the gun down, and it was in that moment my purpose was birth I said I know why I'm here to speak to be the voice of the voiceless or the parts of you that you haven't yet given a voice and I know there's all those people doing all these other things but when it comes to that deep, dark, treacherous place that people mask and they try to overcompensate and do all these other things,

that's my playground. Yeah. That's so unbelievable. Most people who listen to this on audio, so they didn't just see your face, but like I watched your face when you sat down. It's like, there was like a spiritual, soulful transformation in those moments.

You can see it right now, it's happening again, right? By the way, thank you for listening to the audio and share the podcast today. But I have to tell you, like it's all over you. Now, by the way, just when you think we're getting real foofy here, we're, you're not so foofy. You're pretty hardcore too, when you're frank with people.

So there's this piece and then there's like, hey, bam. And I was watching some of your content the other day and I'm like, damn. You literally said on something I watched, I don't feel sorry for you if you're broke. I don't feel sorry for people to tell me they have no money. This was interesting to me. From everything we just said,

I'm taking you in a whole other direction how I do this, right? I want people to see the whole perspective here. And then you said people that say, hey, I don't feel seen, you said you kind of chuckle and laugh. So there's a part of you that's like, hey, and I think the reason that you do that is

you know now so deeply that people can change that you're not gonna give them their BS ways of getting out of it. But just talk about that for a second, because it's one thing to be what we're both talking about, being vulnerable, sharing these parts of our souls, making people feel safe. These are all things that are beautiful

for two masculine men to be willing to talk about. At the same time though, same time, there's just other parties like, I don't feel sorry for you. And why is that? And well, I want you to elaborate on that. Well, I'll tell you this. I'm a big context guy. Me too.

So in the same conversation, my story will always live there. The vulnerability of my story. So, but Karen, you don't understand. I don't have any money. And I'm like, somebody said to me the other day, oh no, it's easy for you to talk about that. You have this big house and you have the wife

and you have the, yeah, I've been saying the same thing when I was living in my storage unit and sleeping on bubble wrap, sleeping in an abandoned building, y'all are just now catching up. Like when I was living in my car, you probably had a home, I don't wanna assume. By the way, I have a photo of the storage unit right there that he was living in, just so you all know.

Yeah. So I have it, keep going. So, it's difficult, and now I can have empathy and compassion. Absolutely. But I wouldn't just come out if somebody was like, oh, you don't, I wouldn't just laugh in anybody's face. There's always context and my story that goes with it. So if somebody's saying that and I'll be like,

hey, I experienced the same thing. And you know what I did when I was living in my car? I went to Starbucks every single day and I wrote down 10 things that I'm good at, 10 things that I absolutely love to do, found a way to weave that, and then I went on Craigslist and I found a way to make money every single day, and then finally something hit,

and then something else hit. So what you're seeing now is the overflow of what I was doing when I was living in my car. It was almost like God was like, I want to see if you are really serious is the overflow of what I was doing when I was living in my car. It was almost like God was like, I want to see if you are really serious about what you say you want to do. Okay?

Pay me no money and I will still do it and I will do it to excellence. And that's what I did. So therefore, when the money does coming in, now like more money is coming in. I'm like, it doesn't surprise me. It makes sense because I put in the work. Well, the reason you did, though, and this is important, you make a big,

you paint this distinction. You didn't try. OK, you did this like your life depended on it. You say there's a big difference between this and everybody really close. If you keep trying things, that is the lowest possible commitment level is to try. Now I'm not saying in my book, I literally have a chapter called One More Try. So I believe in trying something again. But behind that, there has to be something in you that has already sort of pre-negotiated the price you're going to have to pay so that you're not constantly navigating the price

you're paying because you talk about trying versus mastery. Yeah. And by the way, I think the money comes in. You're earning the money while you're trying to get good at something. But the money doesn't come in until you've mastered it typically, or at least increase your capacity to do it. Like in business, I earned most of the money I make now when I was broke years ago.

It just comes in now. But I earned most of the money I make now when I was broke years ago. It just comes in now. But I earned it back then when I was making an effort with no reciprocity. I was making an effort when nothing was coming in. In fact, I was making an effort as my life went backwards. So it was earned then, I'm just getting paid now. So good. Right?

So good Ed, so good. It's just true. And that's the hard part of watching successful people, because they behave in a particular way often when they get there. I didn't earn my money now. I earned it back then. And you had to make a, you cannot go

from living in a damn storage unit, being incarcerated, blowing through a record deal, having a dad that's murdered, having someone try to murder you in your damn life, right? All these mistakes you've made. And like, I'm gonna give it a go. That couldn't have been what it was. You don't go to where you are by giving it a go. So what's the difference?

I would say the difference is most people don't realize the value of not giving it a go. So I'm going to try it a time or two to see if it works. Here's what doesn't work. Everything that you've done up until this point where you felt like it didn't work and then you kept doing that. So what you did is master it not working.

So you're actually in mastery any direction you go. So this is why I teach a lot at my retreats on energy transmutation. Tell us what that means. Yeah, who I was when I was sleeping around with all those women, breaking in the cars and everything, that there's an energy behind it. It's not the action.

It's the energy behind it. That's driving that level of success. That same person is the same person that messaged 900 producers say, get my song on a record, get my song. And then in 30 days days I had 28 songs. And then two months later I had a record deal with Ludacris. It was the same.

I just transmuted the energy in a different direction. So you come into mastery when you're doing something over and over and over and over, like the little kid learning how to walk over and over and over and over and over. And walking is not even our natural state. It's something that we adapt into. So you adapt into mastery, mastery and excuses and security,

devaluing yourself, devaluing people around you. And if you could see that you are actually in, you're actually a mastery-esque person, you just need to transmute that energy in a direction where it's moving you forward, not keeping you stuck or keeping you back. So all this is is a redirection, because you can't see the picture while you're in the frame of what really matters to you. Staying in the same spot or moving forward and creating an extraordinary life for yourself

and your family. I started caring that my mom was working at a job that was killing her and then and she's got these back-to-back surgeries, colostomy bag, barely alive. I started caring that maybe, maybe I can do something about it. I started caring that I could support my daughter's mother and we can, we can come together and, and, and, and create Kylia's college fund. I started caring. You know what? I'm, I want my mom, I want to retire my mom. So what would that mean to put this energy into these actions and whatever it takes?

By 2015, I will have my daughter's college tuition paid for three years before she graduates high school. And by 2015, I'll be a multimillionaire. This is back when I was living in my car. By 2015 I'm gonna retire my mom and it all happened. I started caring about the things that actually matter to me and I put all the energy in that direction. That's heart power, right?

Yep. Yeah, you talk a lot about heart power and I think in life and business you win with your heart, not your head. I think you have to have good strategies, right? Yeah, for sure. But I think you win with your heart and most people aren't willing to put their heart into it. If you win with your heart, not your head. I think you have to have good strategies, right? But I think you win with your heart, and most people aren't willing to put their heart into it.

If you're listening to this, you gotta put your whole heart into it. If you're gonna be in a really blissful, loving, incredible relationship with somebody, you have to have your whole heart in it, just like you do with your kids. If you're gonna build a great business or a great body, you have to have your heart into it.

Your heart's 50,000 times more powerful than your brain. The electrical current is, the power of it is. Now you get your head and your heart in congruency and you have that, now you're unstoppable. And that's really what you did. But the other thing you did, I'm just watching you, is you took advantage. You are leveraging part of your giftedness

doing what you do now, right? And I think for a lot of people, that's part of the rub as well, is like, what's my gift? And understanding that you do have two or three gifts that are unique to you. So talk about leveraging your giftedness, where is it? And then maybe a little bit of a tip for somebody to figure out if they don't know

what maybe their giftedness could potentially be. What you were just talking about, that heart power? So the EKGs of the heart is like one of the most powerful frequencies in the world. Most people use more of their head than their heart. Well, if you imagine a little kid just tapping on your knee going, mom, mom, mom, dad, dad, dad, mom, mom, and that kid never being acknowledged. What do y'all think would happen to the relationship 20 years from now with no acknowledgement? There wouldn't be one

because there would be no emotional closure. So the stuff you used to love to do as a kid before you got influenced by the outside world, I'm just talking about the stuff you used to love to do as a kid, before you got influenced by the outside world, I'm just talking about the stuff you used to love to do that brought you the most freedom, is connected to the truest essence of your heart. Yeah. So I had a young lady, and I'll wrap this up quick,

I had a young lady say, oh, she's like, I don't know, I have the husband, I have the husband, I have the job and, and, and I have the money. I just feel like something is missing. I say, what'd you used to love to do when you were a kid? She said, I used to love instantly change. I still love to dance. I was like, how'd you, how did it make you feel? It just made it's like time stopped. When was the last time you danced 20 years ago? And I literally said, if you know what that relationship is like, if you ignore your kid for 20 years, now imagine your inner child.

And every time and every day that goes by, the thing that you used to love to do gets walked over and forgotten. That's the inner child going, mom, mom, mom, dad. So what's missing or potentially is the alignment of your spiritual self and your physical self wanting to come back home. And the what's missing part is me telling her

sign up for a dance class, don't talk about it, don't think about business. And when you go there, set a powerful intention that I'm gonna take the little girl inside of me, dancing. Do it just once, once a week. She does it once a week. Libido comes back. Yep.

The relationship with her husband starts thriving. Her business, she had quit that one, got another business. She was like, oh my God! It's like, well the universe becomes plastic according to the thoughts that you give the most power and who she was being was living from the inside out

and not the outside in. Beautiful. So that. That's so good. That right there, if the entire world could remember at least one thing you did as a kid that brought you the most joy.

If you don't remember, ask somebody when you were a little kid, what did I naturally graduate, what color, what toy, what this, what did I gravitate towards? And just spend five minutes once a week with it. Watch what happens in 30 days. Okay, I'm gonna give you an example of how brilliant you are, okay?

So one of my, I was thinking recently about one of my, like, happiest friends. Like, just loves what he does. Like, listen, there's lots of sources of happiness in life. In fact, you are the source of your happiness, but when you're in the process of doing something that's your giftedness, you tap into it at a deep level. You're in the process of serving other people.

And we've done all the studies now. Actually, you get more dopamine in the process than the achievement. When you achieve something, actually there's a dopamine crash. It's the pursuit. It's the process, right? It's the actual work. One of my happiest friends did exactly what you've described, and I'll validate your work with this.

He's actually a lawyer, and he's in his 50s, and this dude's just a stud. He's super a lawyer and he's in his 50s and he's just this dude's just the stud he's super happy but here's the story he had been an entrepreneur till he was 30 and made a lot of money and was miserable and he said I just I got to this achievement and I didn't get any happier and he said you know what I started to think about when I was a little guy like five ten years old what did I really like to do? And he goes, you know, it's funny. I like to argue. I liked to argue. And he goes, and I was also the dude, if there was a fight on the playground, I'd go protect the small kid because he's a big dude. And he goes, so I started thinking when I

was a kid, what brought me the most joy, I love to argue, like kind of debate with people. And even as a young boy, we all have a child like that. Right. So some of you have a child like that. And I would protect people. He goes, I think I want to be a lawyer. We all have a child like that, right? So some of you have a child like that. And I would protect people. He goes, I think I want to be a lawyer. So this dude at 30 years old went back, went to law school, got his law degree and now has a law practice. And in his thirties found his giftedness and his go zone by tapping into his heart.

So this isn't all like this esoteric concept stuff. This is real stuff. And by the way, maybe that thing isn't what you're gonna do for a living, it's gonna be your hobby. For me, I loved to run when I was a kid. And I've had some major injuries to my legs playing baseball, it's a long story, but like I really can't run like I used to.

And so I recently, ironically got into riding horses and I'm like, what is it that I love so much about being with these horses is that's that I can run again, and they can run faster than me. So it brings me to, these are all the pathways that when you listen to my show, you guys, and I put brilliant people in front of you, and we get into this thing

that you and I are doing right now, open your mind up and go around it. You know what I mean? Like think about all the places that there's applications of what we're discussing here. Cause when you do, you'll understand the genius of his work. By the way, Garen has a book I didn't mention or called Change Your Mindset, Change Your Life,

Lessons of Love, Leadership and Transformation. It's been out for a while. I read it prepping for this. It's outstanding. I feel like there's another book in you by the way. Oh no, it's coming. Okay, good. Cause I really believe that there's another one.

It took me five years to write that book because it's called Change Your Mindset, Change Your Life. Every time I kept growing, I kept changing, and my boy Preston was like, Garen, if you don't put that book out right now. So that was a younger version of me, and I've evolved so much since then. Well, by the way, one other thing they should know

is you have this incredible book, and you had a learning disability or something in school, right? So it's like, whatever your excuse is, I want to put somebody in front of you, everybody's probably going to take it away, everybody. Yeah. Right? Like you just take away people's excuses, but you also feed their dreams. You feed their spirit.

This message is sponsored by Greenlight. As your kids get older, some things about parenting get easier. Not everything though. You know, when my kids were growing up, one of the things I wanted to emphasize for them was budgeting, you know, learning about money. It's really the one thing in school they don't teach us that we need in the real world. And we didn't talk about money enough when I was growing up. So with my kids, I changed that. Man, do I wish Greenlight existed when my kids were young. And the fact is, kids really want to

know how to manage their money. And they won't know how to do it until they're actually in charge of it. So that's where Greenlight can help. Greenlight's a debit card and money app made for families. Parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on kids' spending and they won't know how to do it until they're actually in charge of it. So that's where Greenlight can help. Greenlight's a debit card and money app made for families. Parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on kids spending and saving while kids and teens learn money skills, building confidence with it and lifelong financial literacy skills. Millions of parents and kids are learning about money on Greenlight. It's easy. It's convenient. It's a great way for parents to raise financially smart kids.

So start your risk-free Greenlight trial today at Greenlight.com slash ed. That's Greenlight.com slash ed to get started. Greenlight.com slash ed. Hey, are you ready to jumpstart your wellness in 2025? I know it's like top three of my goals are all somehow related to my wellness. Here's who can help you, Lumen. Did you know that studies show that 80% of all resolutions are toast by February? You can beat the odds with Lumen and improve your wellness.

It gives me insights to create an ideal metabolism for my body. It's helped me in my case improve other aspects of my life as well and Lumen is the key to it. It's a device that helps you measure your metabolism through your breath and on the app it'll tell you if you're burning fat or carbs and it gives you tailored guidance to help you improve your nutrition, workouts,

sleep, and even stress management. Take the next step to helping to improve your health. Go to lumen.me slash Edmylett to get 20% off your lumen. That's lumen, L-U-M-E-N dot me slash Edmylett for 20% off your purchase. Thank you Lumen for sponsoring this episode. These statements and products have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or condition. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So what are some of your relationship green flags? Maybe it's when your partner thoughtfully listens to you or anticipates your needs.

We often hear about the red flags that we should avoid, but what if we focused more on green flags in friends and partners? If you're not sure what green flags look like, therapy can help you identify what they do look like and how you feel when you get them. It's something you deserve more of in your life, whether you're dating, married, you're building a friendship, maybe you're just working on yourself. It's time to form relationships that love you back and that feel good in your life. Therapy with BetterHelp can teach you positive coping skills and how

to set boundaries in your relationships and in business and it empowers you to be the best version of yourself which is really what this show's about. They've got more than 30,000 credential therapists with a wide range of specialties. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash EdShow to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash EdShow. That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed Mylett Show on Apple and Spotify.

Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Tim Grover, welcome back to the show, brother. Thank you so much. So let's take Kobe and Jordan, the two physically phenomenally gifted dudes, mixed with all the things that you have in the book about winning. Like if you want to think like Kobe Bryant and what Tim Grover did, we're going to read the book.

If you want to think like MJ and the things that you learned from MJ and then that you took to another level read the book, right? Did you ever work with a guy? Don't say who I know you wouldn't but did you ever work with someone as physically gifted as either one of the two of them that Just lacked these things and so as a result, we don't know who they are Numerous really as physically gifted even more Wow Wow more they were by far not my most physically gifted athletes. I work with athletes that were jumped higher than MJ, who ran faster, who had better footwork than Kobe. But they-

Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were not the two most physically gifted athletes you've worked with. No. Whoa. OK. And then so when you would work with these guys and you'd be pushing them in training, there a different resistance or fatigue or how was it different? You know what, Ed, how many times have you had people come up to you and say, I'll do

anything to get where you're at? Right, all the time. Or I'll do anything to work for you until you tell them what your definition of anything is. Your definition of anything is different than my definition of anything. I'll have an athlete, it's very simple. When I first start with them, when I was training numerous, I said what time's the first workout? I'd say 3.30.

I'll be like, okay. It's 3.30 a.m. A.M. I wouldn't tell them a.m. or p.m. I'd tell them 3.30. Okay. So we're, myself, my staff, we're sitting at, waiting, cause you know, winning doesn't sleep and it doesn't understand why you, why you do.

That's awesome. So, then we come back at, we go, they roll in the gym at 3, 3.30, like what are you doing here? They're like, you said 3.30. No, no. I said, you got the wrong time. And I said, when does a new day start?

And they look at me and goes, no, I said, no, the new day starts at 12 midnight. That's right. That's a new day. All right. What are you waiting for? And even if you tell them them hey, MJ did this, Kobe did this, if they don't have it, they don't have it. They don't have it.

Do you think it's a lack of obsession? Like you said, you've referenced a couple times like sleep at night, your bed doesn't sleep and all that. One of the things that, I'll be honest, there's a lot in the book that hit me and you guys go get the book. Winning, Tim Grover, real simple. Get it anywhere books are sold. But there's this part of the book man, like it almost made me cry audibly reading it but I did get water in my eyes and I'm gonna get water even explaining it to you, where you're talking about being asleep and that you get these visitors at night. And I know those visitors very very well. I have them too. It's attached to my obsessions

and I don't think I don't think, I don't think the average person who wants to really win understands the extent and degree of obsession required. They don't. So can you elaborate on that visitors that you get at night? Everybody thinks obsession is a bad word. It's not. I love to use the people like, you're a great example. Ed, why, why keep going? Look at the house.

Not only this house, the other house, and the other house, and the plane. And if people pay very close attention to what was just said Probably about 20 minutes ago What did you say? I don't consider my I don't know if I consider myself a winner That's obsession. Hmm That's obsession and I love to use your plane story as an example. You went from a very nice size plane. Mm-hmm To even a bigger plane. Mm-hmm

But it's still not your 747. That's right. It's not your 747. That's an obsession. That's a healthy obsession. That's what gets you out of bed. That's what allows you to, when you get out of bed, when all the skeletons are lined up next to you and telling you, you can't do this, you're not able to do this, you're not able to do this, you get up every single morning and you shake their hands and give them a hug and say, what do you got for me tonight?

Exactly. I got you. Because you're a part of me. You're a part of me. And people put some, it's funny, winners bring all of them wherever they go. And most individuals, the best part of them, the thing that allows them to win, the thing that allows them to be obsessive, the thing that allows them not to care what other people think, the things that allow them to deal with hatred, the things that keep them going when nothing else will, they keep in their closets. Hmm. The best part of them, they keep in there because they're worried what are people going to think about me if I let those things out. Don't, I always say this, all right?

Everyone says I'm afraid to become that person. You should be more afraid not to become that person. Be afraid not to become that person. You're a big thing about, you know, meet, I wanna, at the end of the journey, I wanna meet my better half and say, hey, what did you leave behind? Or I was like, hey, this is the person. Shake hands with him.

Shake hands with him. If you can't become that person, you're never gonna be able to shake that person's hand. Yeah, I'd much rather, I live in more fear of, I live in way more fear of not becoming that person than I am about not trying to be him, big time. But I do have, I wanna stay on this for a minute, I get these visitors at night too that you get.

So, I don't want people to think that winning is all like, rosy and glory and beautiful. It's nothing. It's nothing. It's really not. And I'm not even, you have to know this. Here's the real, never said this on the show.

You have to really know these truths so that you can actually decide you still want to win. Yes. Right, because what does come with becoming this way now at 50 and you're 56 or? 56. 56, you look great. I've had 50 years of having these visitors in my life.

And they're not going away at. They're not, that's what everybody wants to do. The people just want to sweep them under the rug. They want to keep them in the closet. They don't want to talk about them. That's what makes you successful. That's what makes you, that's what makes you special. That's what makes you special. That's what makes you different.

And what do we say? Different scares people. Winners and winning scares people. And they don't want to win because of that. They're trying to win, they're trying to balance, they're trying to fit in. What do winners do? Very few of them have balance in their life.

Maybe after they become successful, they try to balance a little bit more. All right. There is no balance early. They don't care what other people thinks. They're extremely obsessive. They know it. And they don't mind telling you

that they're chasing the next win because that's what fuels them. But when people come to you and say, you've had enough, you know why, slow down, slow down, unwind. I don't know about you, I do know about you, I should say that. We are at our most uncomfortable when people tell us to unwind. We like to be wound up. We like that, that's like a part of, we have our unique ways of unwinding.

We don't need anybody to tell us to unwind. My favorite way of unwinding is having some tequila with a buddy of mine who's another winner and talking about doing more winning. tell us to unwind. Yep. My favorite way of unwinding is having some tequila with a buddy of mine who's another winner and talking about doing more winning. I was on Andy's show and I said, winning is more fun than fun is fun. I remember that. And I just really believe that.

Like, it's actually what I like. Like, I like the pursuit of winning. I like the, I like, I like that I sincerely don't feel that way about myself. Cause I'm scared if I did. Like I'm scared of these visitors that I have are my fears, my worries, my hopes, my thoughts, my skeletons, you know.

They take all those forms. They take all those forms. And you don't know what form they're gonna take that night. And you know what? They're gonna sit at you with a table. They're not gonna, I put this in a book. When you travel, those skeletons are traveling with you on the plane. They're my constant companion.

All the time. Yeah. And if you notice, everyone looks at you and you fly on that plane alone. I've said, Ed's never been on that plane alone. It's true, it's true. He's never been on that plane alone. They're with me all the time.

All the time. And you know what? When they look at his tequila bottles on the thing and they're finished, that's because they're drinking the best stuff also. I wonder who's drinking all that stuff, man. Stuff gets expensive. I just love this because this is the realest conversation I've ever had about really winning and it's the realest book about it. Like, like it's, I don't, this isn't one of these Pollyanna things like it's not all rosy. No, there's a lot of it that sucks. And like, unless you want to sign up, and by the way,

I don't know if you've ever, I'm actually cool if you don't. Like if you actually said, hey, I don't want all that stuff. I don't want to, I mean, I don't relate to you. I'm not going to hang out with you. You're not my kind of people. But I'd actually admire somebody who says, I won't do to you. I'm not gonna hang out with you. You're not my kind of people. But I'd actually admire somebody who says, I won't do these things that are in this book, and I know I'm not gonna win.

Rather than say, I wanna win and do none of the things that are in the book. The people that can admit it, they've already won. Hmm. The people that said, this ain't for me. This ain't for me, this ain't, they're saying, they know exactly who they are. I'm good. Hmm. I'm good, I'm good.

Most people will settle for good, most people will settle for okay. Very few people will settle for great, very few people will settle for unstoppable, very few people will settle for winning. I break things down three different ways, so look at this. And I didn't even put this in a book, but I wanna share this with you.

You have individuals that compete. Everybody competes, you know that. You play golf, you love golf. You know, you go out and your golfing partner, I don't know, what's his real name? Your real name is Kelly Gwynn, we call him Richard Cabesa. Dick Cabesa is head in Spanish.

I got it, okay. Everyone that's wondering what that's his name, because half the people don't know, that's what Richard Cabesa means. Right, everybody knows him. He's going to be signing autographs on Richard Cabesa. He does, he goes out there and people are like, I love you and my Latin man, can I get your,

he's had people take pictures with him. It's awesome. Yeah, so, and I'll get into it a little bit later about that, but there's people that compete. Right, there's, everybody knows how to compete at something. All right, and for most people, when they compete, they wanna get to the, they wanna just finish. That's their way, they just wanna finish.

All right, now to me, if you're that level person, is that finish gonna lead to another win? It might not be, it might be in something else. If you're gonna run a marathon, alright, and you're not one of these top elite marathon runners, you're not gonna win the marathon. You're not gonna win. But you have a mindset to say,

hey, I'm gonna finish this marathon. Now, is that, when you finish that marathon, what else is it setting you up for? But there's people that go in there, they're just happy, they're just happy competing, they're just happy finishing, they're just happy to be in the race. Then you have people that win in there, they're just happy, they're just happy competing, they're just happy finishing, they're just happy to be in the race. Then you have people that win, all right, once.

They win once. And how many individuals do you know, and you probably don't, well, I shouldn't say this, I said you know, not associate, where there's a big difference, that keep telling you about that win over and over again, no matter how long it's been. Yeah, factoid.

All right. I got it, man. You were quarterback in high school. Yes. I got it. You got your masters. I got it. I got it.

Then you have individuals that win at winning. That's really good. They win at winning. That's really good. They win at winning. So they win over and over and over again. You think it's all it's cracked up to be? No, but we don't know any other way. Best answer of all time.

Very similar. We don't know any other way. Best answer of all time. We can't accept it any other way. We just can't. I wrote a bestselling book. Crap. I didn't have to do another book.

You wrote a bestselling book. Right. You know, you have another book coming out. You don't have to do any of this. But if you didn't, that would be more detrimental to you. You don't know any other way.

You just don't. Yeah. You think that, by the way, I'm loving this. Just so you know, because I know people that might be listening and say, hey, this is a little bit dark. Welcome to winning. That's why you see so many people. I watched Nick Saban after he wins these national championships. He's gotten a little bit better out at the last couple of years.

Have you noticed this? Yeah. Just a little bit, though. Like 1% better. You know what? Either his wife or somebody in his family told him this. He at least smiled for the interview after. We can get back to work tonight.

But you watch these prolific winners. So I did love to watch MJ celebrate that win in the evening that he won, right? Or the few times I saw Kobe actually celebrate the win. But I know the next day they're back to work. I watched a Saban. And for for years he'd win these national championships and you could already see the grimace on his face for the next year in the post game interview. In the post game, yes.

Right? And like I think people look at it and they go, well then is he, and I think to your answer you're right, like people say, well is he really enjoying this? Yes, and he knows no other way. So maybe it's not all, I wonder if you ask, is it all it's cracked up to be? I think some people might say, no, but it's all I know. And it's better than the alternative of living with losing the rest of my life or not trying.

Yes, all right. There's a reason it's lonely at the top. And it's not because you wanna be surrounded with other individuals. That's not the part people when they talk about it's lonely at the top. It's alone because nobody understands what's going on in here. Of what you went after you've just won. What you went through and you're already thinking about the next. You're already thinking about the next and people can't comprehend that. And there's people whispering in your ear and they're saying, enjoy it, enjoy it.

By the time they say enjoy it, you did enjoy it. Now you're already thinking. Yeah. Do you think it's that, I'm just thinking right now, I'm asking you this, because you watched this and you've done it in your own life like You've you you've had two careers You've had a career where you helped which you still do Where you help other people win and then there became this point in your life where you became you were

Individually winning as a speaker as a coach as a writer It's an interesting thing to watch with you. You were the behind- scenes guy, then you weren't the behind the scenes guy. Do you think that, it's like a dopamine thing, like when they win, like they're already, they have to get another one, like it's an addiction? Do you think winning becomes an addiction? It is an addiction, and the only place where you can get that high again

is the black market in your mind. It's the only place. Because you only know where that entrance place because you only know where that entrance is, you only know where that hit is, you only know what that drug is. And here's the crazy part about it, the next win has to be bigger, it has to be bigger, it has to be bigger, it has to constantly keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So true. It sounds like a sickness when you're listening to this, but I actually think it's beautiful. I actually think you were born to win, and you learn over a lifetime how not to. As a child, don't do this, sit down, be a good boy, get in your place, do this, then the world starts treating you.

And I think you move further and further away from your own nature. I think we were born to win, we were born to do something great with our life. I really, I know that's a saying to me and I feel a sadness when I meet somebody who's accepted a life of not winning. By the way, I'm cool with it, it's okay, I'm not judging you, but as someone who wants to pursue that expression of myself or that, I just wonder what I would be like, you know, if I could what it would be like, what I would be like if I could get to the next level. I'm fascinated with, like I think the people that I really like enjoy are curious people. Like I want

the next experience. I don't want to live in the previous experience like that guy was like, hey, you know, I made a million dollars in 2009, and it was like in the mortgage boom, or the crash, or whatever. I'm not really interested in living in those times. You're not, because it's always about what's next. It's always about constantly staying in the rain. It's constantly about changing your mindset. The language of winning for people that win

is completely different than the language of winning from other individuals No You sit here and you talk to people and they describe that when I talk to all my athletes I said describe winning in one word to me and everybody would think about you know, they would be like it's happy It's you know, it's euphoric. It's all those things and it is But those constant winners their answers were it's euphoric, it's all those things, and it is. But those constant winners, their answers were, it's unpolished, it's uncivilized, it's nasty, it's hard, it's dirty, it's unforgiving.

And then Kobe comes up and says, it's everything. It's everything and if you think about it And very few people are genuine about this All right, and you know the ones that are you know the ones that aren't How do you feel when somebody's really close to you and they went it's an unbelievable feeling And they win. It's an unbelievable feeling. Unbelievable feeling. How do you feel when you win?

It's an unbelievable feeling. Even though it's short-lived. How do you feel when your kids win? It's unbelievable. Alright. That feeling is everything. It is everything. That feeling is everything.

It's amazing you just said that. I'm reading the book last night, and I call my wife about halfway through the book. Because when you read your work, even in the first book, you talk about in this book, the most controversial part of the first book was the dark side. Yes.

You talk about it in this book. And then when you're reading this, you're like, this winning thing's mean. This winning thing's unforgiving. This winning thing doesn't give a shit if you sleep. This winning thing doesn't care, right? You go through, you're like, geez winning thing's mean. This winning thing's unforgiving. This winning thing doesn't give a shit if you sleep. This winning thing doesn't care, right? You go through, you're like, geez, this is almost. And if you're not careful, guys, you would think,

because this is truth. It flies in the face, everything you always hear. But you would think that it's not something that you really want. And the evidence of it, I said to my wife last night, I said the evidence that you know winning is where you belong is how happy you are when you see your children doing it, I said to my wife last night, I said the evidence that you know winning is where you belong is how happy you are when you see your children doing it

if you have children. When your children win a spelling bee or get straight A's or hit a home run or win a golf tournament or do anything exceptional, the amount of joy you feel and pride when they win, I have a feeling that that's how God feels when he sees one of his children win. And I think this is something we all miss,

that it is a grind, it is difficult, but if you ever wonder whether you belong winning and that's the path you should pursue, just ask yourself a question about your children if you have them, or your parents, or anybody that you love and care about. When they win, how do you feel for them? I literally said this last night.

So I've heard you speak numerous times, and while people don't know about this. Like when we're on the stage together at the same event, I'll stay just to hear you speak. Mike's first, as you know. I will stay. The last time I heard you speak was at an event and you were talking about a golf tournament

you were with with your son. With Max, yeah. With Max. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's an intense story. Yeah, it was an intense. We went from playing golf to winning. Yes.

That was the decision. Like to your point, like your book. And by the way, I've said this early in the interview, little words from people, a caring statement, a little bit of access to some information. And I've said this many times, just haven't said it to you, but like, I thank you, because, you know, I've had people say,

oh, your son gets all your stuff. And yeah, he also has talked to Grover. He's also talked to Grover and just so you guys know I really truly believe that one of the reasons that my son is excelling is you and your information little whispers You get a little direct message a little text message a little access to a call like you've done for my son And I think that's the other thing that people don't know winners are generous extremely generous extreme you know why a call like you've done for my son and I think that's the other thing that people don't know. Winners are generous. Extremely generous. You know why? Because they're truthful.

They tell you how it is. It's not rainbows, it's not unicorns, it's not sprinkles. This is what it takes. This is what it takes. And other people, they don't wanna, we talk about the stuff nobody else wants to talk about. Does that make us bad people? In many people's eyes, it does,

but it also, we're the few people that are gonna hold you accountable, we're gonna tell you the truth, and people are gonna say, you know what, everybody else sugarcoated it, these individuals told me exactly how it is. That's what the book Winning is about. Now, I don't want people to think that it's all this thing.

If you read the last chapter of the book, it kind of ties everything in and it explains why winners go through this journey. Why they go through this journey. Yep. Why they go through this journey. Because I have this thing, it's like everyone talks about it's the journey, it's journey, it's not the destination. Well to me, why the hell are you taking the journey

if you don't know where the hell the destination is? What are you just aimlessly gonna be running around? All right, every time you, when you get on your plane, or you get in your car, you know exactly, you're going from here to here. Now you may have to take a detour to go somewhere else to do whatever you're doing, but you're like, this is where we're going. You had a post a couple of days ago, man, it's nice to own a jet because all of a sudden I got to go wherever, wherever your destination was. undivided attention as they work on your return while you get real-time updates on their progress so you can focus on your day. Isn't that what you want to be

able to do? Have an expert get your taxes done, figure out whether you're getting any money back and when you're gonna get it back and doing it the sooner the better for everybody. An expert who will find you every possible deduction and file every form, every investment, everything with 100% accuracy so you don't need to worry about it. All so you can get the most money back guaranteed. No waiting, no wondering, no worries. Now this is taxes. Get an expert now on TurboTax.com.

Only available with TurboTax live full service. Real-time updates only in iOS mobile app. See guarantee details at TurboTax.com slash guarantees. This is Carrie the Fire. I'm your host, Lisa LaFlamme. details at TurboTax.com slash guarantees. This is Carry the Fire. I'm your host, Lisa LaFlamme. Carry the Fire, a podcast by the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation featuring inspiring personal stories

about what happens when world leading doctors, nurses, researchers, and their patients come together to ignite breakthroughs. Carry the Fire launches Monday, January 27th, wherever you get your podcasts. Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes.

Now onto our next guest. I'm excited because a really good friend of mine's here today. He's also got a new show out on Netflix right now. What's the name of that show? Called Buying Beverly Hills. Buying Beverly Hills. And so if you have ever watched that show, you recognize that beautiful voice of my friend Mauricio

Jemansky. Welcome, Mo. Ed, how are you? It's so good to be here with you. You use the word, and this thinking that you just said is contrarian thinking. It's contrary to culture. It's contrary to popular opinion. To start, the agency was a contrarian move.

You actually have that as part of the work in the book called be contrarian. Does that mean don't always participate in group think like everybody does it and be constantly innovating? Because you also talk about that in the book too. I think that's exactly what that means. You know, it's think on you, it's think. You know, don't follow.

I remember, you know, another thing that my grandfather and my father always used to say to me, they used to say, when everybody's buying, you sell. When everybody's selling, you buy. Interesting. Right? Like that's what a contrarian is. I do that by the way. I am always, I just put a post out about this

Mo the other day I'm like when everyone is thinking one way I try to always think the other when they're all going one direction No one makes money in the pack. No, I mean market share in the pack. Nobody grains a great life in the pack I mean, it's like what we're dealing with right now the first Republic Bank, right like Is it the time to buy right down 85% debating the same thing myself I'm like I kind of get what's happening that's contrarian thinking right like you're not following everybody you know by the way I'm not telling anybody I should amend that good bank thing it's a bank I just leave it

at that it's a bank I I'll just leave it at that. It's a bank. I don't know if it's a good bank or not. I gotta be really, really careful about that. Do you think, by the way, I'm loving our conversation. It's really cool for me to have this part of my friend that I see revealed to me in detail, like the science behind the art,

because I've always admired the things that you do and how you go about doing them, but now I understand the processes to which you do them. I wanna go all the way back for a minute because it's one of my favorite stories in the book, because you just said it. I think a lot of people that get into sales don't realize you are self-employed,

but you have to operate like you own your own business. You have to think like an entrepreneur. A lot of people do this. They have a full-time job. They work like 12, 14 hours a day. All of a sudden, they get to be an independent contractor, have a job, and they think theytime job. They work like 12, 14 hours a day. All of a sudden they get to be an independent contractor of a job and they think they're on vacation. They work two, three hours a day.

I'm like, no, when you do that, you actually have five jobs. You have 11 jobs. It's going to require more work, sheer momentum to get it off the ground. You kind of caught that entrepreneurial bug, you call it in the book, young with this thing with your dad, right? This story. I think this is illustrative of thinking like an entrepreneur, and it's one of my favorite stories in the entire book

because it explains you to me and it explains a lot of your success to me. Tell us that. Another recession, my father came up to me and he said, you know, Mauricio, it's time to either work or go to school, but I'm not gonna pay for you to be a dumbass anymore and just pretend you're going to school, right?

And I literally said to my dad, I go, give me a couple of days and I'll get back to you and let you know what I wanna do. And he was supportive of me going to school if I was gonna go to school, right? I just wasn't supportive of me going to school if I was gonna go to the bars. Right, right, right.

And I got back and I said, Dad, I'm gonna come work for you. And he just taught me so many things, man. He taught me the value of the penny, right? Which is in my book, and you guys will love that. It's a great story. It really just makes everything so real. And it just teaches, it helps you teach your kids

how to save, it helps you teach yourself how to save and how to understand that value. Because I always tell everybody, there's 100 pennies in the dollar. The day you can figure out how to save and how to understand that value because I always tell everybody there's 100 pennies in the dollar. The day you can figure out how to give me 102, I'm in. I'm your partner. Yeah, it says that in the book.

Right, so we go through that whole process and he teaches me how to fight for cents, literally. I'd come back and I'd be like, Dad, I sold 100,000 yards for 97 cents. And he'd be like, yeah, go back and get me 99 cents. I'm like, really? Like, yeah, you start adding that up and adding that up, and it adds up to a lot of money, right?

But then eventually, it's like, you're in sales, you're creating your own momentum, you're creating your own things, you get that entrepreneur bug, and I ended up meeting somebody that we sold fabric to that was struggling, and I loved their brand. It was 90265. It was a clothing line.

The guy was awesome. His name's Bron Roylans. He started the company. Really brilliant guy. He was actually a makeup artist. He used to do all the makeup artists for Justine Bateman and Woody Harrelson. And he had all these amazing people that were his people. But they didn't have credit, it was a startup, et cetera, et cetera, and I'm sitting there

in front of these guys and I'm thinking to myself, well these are the fabrics I sell. Like I've got all of this shit sitting in my warehouse. So now you start thinking as an entrepreneur and you start taking your salesman job into this next piece which is like, how do I build a business? And so from there we built a business and we we built something else you know so there's an

exit out of it too right and there yeah yeah there was an exit we sold it it was not it was not a profitable exit for me it was more of an exit that got me out and I paid all my debt and I paid all my people and I walked away with it but but but yeah but it was a great learning lesson. What is, let's talk about your public view for a minute. What has that been like for you to go from a guy who's a guy working every single day to now there's this unprecedented notoriety in your life, right?

Like Kyle's the most well-known housewife, I think is probably to say on the- I would say by far. By far, and the most well-known franchise. And then obviously that's transcended over and doesn't hurt you in building your brand either. But I wonder what impact that's made on you, your family, your life, the good and the bad of it.

What comes with that? There's both. There's tremendous sacrifices that are made. What are, like what? You know, and there's obviously the good and the bad of it. What comes with that? There's both. There's tremendous sacrifices that are made. What are, like what? You know, and there's obviously the good, right? The sacrifices are, you know, I mean, is it nice to be able to go in and call and get a reservation at a restaurant

that most people can't get a reservation? Yeah, it's great. But now you walk in and there's also a thousand cameras on you, right? And you're the public eye, and people are talking about you and making stuff up about you and all kinds of different things. It's like, I mean, having, to me,

having, that was definitely a sacrifice I made. The privacy of life, just being private, being, and I don't know how else to say it, it's literally just being private. I know what you mean. It's amazing, right? And so many people want to be publicly known, and they want the notoriety,

and they want the celebrity status, and all of those things, but people don't realize what a huge sacrifice comes with that. And it's not necessarily bad, it also brings money. Right, the benefits of building a brand, all those other things. The benefits, I have made it very clear,

and if it wasn't for the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, if it wasn't for television, I think we would have still grown. I think we'd still have an amazing business, right? Because before I ever got on television, I was already the number one agent in California. But there was no way I would have built the business I had as fast as I have without television.

And you talk about that, so building a network and building a brand. Maybe you're not gonna be on the Real Housewives of whatever, but I think business has become not just about who you know anymore, but about who knows you. And that's why social media does matter, and why building a brand for any entrepreneur out there,

I believe there's value to. Do you agree with that? 100%, and you nailed it. You don't need television to build the brand. Right. I mean, let's be clear, it certainly helps. Right, right. It gets it out there, but not everybody,

there's not 10 million shows. There's only so many seats. 100 million shows. There's only so many seats out there, as you said. But I've seen amazing brands built with other methodologies. Yeah, by building social media, by building referral bases.

But you talk about that and having a network. Because you also say in the book, and I just think this is brilliant stuff, this is just stuff people don't do in friendships. One thing I try to do even with you or other friends of mine, just time to time, I'm just going, hey man, I'm thinking about you, I love you, you okay? You need anything, right? And there's a principle of this in the book for business too, I want you to stay on this point, which is to stay in touch. Because this is, you're not, most people in sales or in their career think that they're building for like just this year. They don't think

that they're building a company. So you're planting seeds often right now that you won't even harvest to get a client or referral three, four, five years from now. So talk about that. 100%. And it's so important. Like, you know, I have approximately 2000 salespeople that work for me right now. And I get to see the way they act all the time, right? You see the guy that makes the $5 million sale, they make $100,000, and you know, they're off to Cabo. Yes.

Boom. Right? Like, buy. Where are you going? I'm off to Cabo. I'm like, dude, you finally made some money. Okay. Like, get it going on.

And then it's like, you know, I'll use me, right, as a real concrete situation. I sell the Playboy Mansion, 100 million dollar deal, right, multi-million dollar commission. I'm in the next day in the office, and like five people come up to me, five of my salesmen come up to me, they're like, congratulations, but what are you doing here?

And I'm just thinking to myself, well, where else would I be? They're like, well, why aren't you on vacation? I'm like, because this deal ended. What's next? I can't re-bring this deal back, right? It's gone, it's not gonna, so what am I tomorrow?

What am I three months from now? What am I seven months from now, right? And as soon as that ends, it's gone. It's not gonna... So what am I tomorrow? What am I three months from now? What am I seven months from now, right? And as soon as that ends, it ends. Yes. Right? And that's what these... That's what people don't understand. So when you're planting those seeds, when you're staying in touch, you're staying in

touch for the future. Yes. For the next thing. Yes. Right? Why is it that people don't get this? Like, this is... It's unbelievable to me.

It's the big separator. Now we're going into it, guys. This is a big ol' separator. Here's what I think happens. You actually say it in the book. That's why I told you, you said, did you get my book? I said, dude, I read it this weekend. I read your entire book in two days. And I know you. So I know a lot of the stories in the book, right? But it's this good. So I'm like, yes, damn it, scream this. And one of the things you say is like, don't believe your press clippings like don't believe the hype about you Here's what happens to most people they get a little bit of success and then they start believing the crap about them

Like oh I can do this whenever I want or this is I actually This is probably because I don't think you do it the way I do it But I play a little scared like I I don't't, you're so confident, I don't think you have, but like, it's similar. And in fact, I play a little scared. Like, when I get a good deal or something good's happened, I've had an exit or, you know, this show's doing really well, I'm like, okay, I gotta do something to keep it going

or do it better. I don't go, yay, I'm the greatest podcast host in the world. It'll just grow on its own now. But that's what a lot of, you must see through your salespeople all the time. Like, they believe the hype or even recognition. I was at your event, I was the speaker at your event.

The best thing you do in your culture is how much you love on your people and they have a good time when you recognize them. I do that really well in my companies too. It's a double-edged sword sometimes though. Because one, you're saying you're amazing, you're great, and a lot of people are like, yeah, I sure am. I'm gonna celebrate.

And they live off last year's production or reward for the next two years. And they wake up, they're like, wow, I can't get a deal done. I lost my mojo. Because they believe the hype. Yep. The seeds you plant today are for tomorrow, not for today. And you're so right, Ed.

And one of the things that I just keep thinking about is you and I are so similar in different ways. Yeah. Right? Similar and different. But when you invited me to play the member guest at the Madison, and you and I are just these competitive son of a guns. We didn't win by the way.

We didn't win. That damn ball, that last punch just hit the pin. That last punch hit the damn golf, dang it. I'm still pissed, anyway. But golf is a game of life, we always talk about it. But you and I are in there, and we're like, when I'm hitting pissed, anyway. But golf is a game of life. We always talk about it, right? But you and I are in there, and we're like, when I'm hitting a bad shot, you're making me feel like it's OK to hit the bad shot.

And when you're hitting it, when you're not super on, I'm making you feel like, and I'm pumping you up, because I know how good you're going to hit that next shot. And you're pumping me up, because you know how that can, and it's that whole thing. That's what we have to do with our people. Yes, exactly. And that is the life that we have to do with our people. Yes, exactly. And that is the life that we have to create.

Are you good at that, like making people feel good about themselves, making them feel that you believe in them, you pour belief into them? I think I'm pretty good at that. I think that that's one of those things that we can always be better and can always continue to work on, because it goes back to time,

and it goes back to the balance of time. I could be great at it, but if I don't have time and I don't put the effort, I suck. Yeah, you know, the other thing you're good at doing is, by the way guys, we're covering a lot of stuff on a short window here, I'm loving this conversation. But the other thing you do is you have surrounded yourself with people who are good at the stuff

you aren't good at doing. One of the most important things to do. Yeah, so talk about that a little bit because I don't think a lot of entrepreneurs do it. They're like, I'm gonna do everything. They micromanage every single little thing or they deplete their energy doing stuff they're not really that good at

and don't have a proclivity for and then they don't have the energy and juice to go do the things that really move the needle in their business. You are really good at moving the needle in your business because you don't deplete your energy most of the time doing stuff you're not good at or don't enjoy. I energy most of the time doing stuff you're not good at

or don't enjoy? I think one of the most important traits that a person can have, a business person, a person in anything, is being able to really self-analyze your strengths and weaknesses. And not trick yourself that you have strengths where you have weaknesses. Because most people, they trick themselves.

I mean, I think that's one of the biggest mistakes I see in people is that they trick themselves. They pretend they're good at something or they think they're good at something that they kind of suck at. Okay? And being able to be self-analytical and understand your weaknesses

is probably the most important thing because then you can hire your weaknesses. Yes. Right? And I hire to my weaknesses and I also hire what I think is amazing brains that don't necessarily think like me. I don't need another human being next to me

that thinks exactly the way I think so that we could be all day long, hey bud, aren't we great? We're the best, yeah, yeah, let's do it red, yeah, red, red, you know, like. Right, I need somebody like, no, I want blue, like, that's not red, you know, like, and why, right? Now I need the brain, Why do you want blue?

Okay, now I might be the boss, I might end up picking red, but I wanna hear every damn reason you want blue, okay? And then it's up to me whether I pick it or not, right? But I wanna hear it. This is two things we have in common. If I were to say there's a trait that you and I really, really share in common

that we do well. By the way, we both have things we don't do very well. So what we do, like golf sometimes. But actually, what we both do well is we ended up in our lives becoming self-aware enough to know the things we were good at. And we've spent most of our business lives and personal lives playing to those strengths.

That's why we're relatively young men that have had some real success because I haven't wasted a bunch of time trying to get really good at things I'm just not good at doing. And the other thing that we have in common, you're really good at that, Mo. The other thing we have in common

is that I don't have to be right all the time. If someone is smarter than me in a meeting or a decision, I will defer my ego, can get too big, I'm sure, but it's not too big. Doing it right is better than it being my idea in business all the time and I think you're really, really good at that too. And by the way, not being right all the time is potentially even more important in your relationships.

How do you mean? Boyfriend, wife, girlfriend, you know, you don't, you know, I see so many friends of mine and they fight with their wives, they fight with their husbands, they fight with their boyfriend, girlfriend, and they're really fighting just because they need to be right, right? If you can learn that you just don't always have to be right,

you know, it could go a long way in your relationship. Really, really true. I do that with Christiana a lot of the times. I'll say, hey, listen, I don't need to win this. This is not about me winning and you losing, or me right and you wrong. Sometimes it's just like, we can even agree to disagree, or I'll just take your idea and we'll

go with it a lot of the time. Because life's pretty damn short. At the end of your life, you're like, man, I won 11 of 12 fights with my wife. Yeah. The scoreboard doesn't matter in this stuff at all. By the way, we do it even in negotiations and deals, too. I'm sure you've had that even in escros, where they're going the wrong way. You're like, no, the scoreboard doesn't matter in this stuff at all, yet we do it, by the way, we do it even in negotiations and deals too. I'm sure you've had that even in escrows

where they're going the wrong way, you're like, no, I'm right. Well, it doesn't matter if you're right. What matters is the deal gets closed, right? And you gotta be able to defer when you do it. You've had a glimpse into the most successful financially, financially successful people in the world and famous people in the world.

Let us in a little bit. Tell us whether or not those people are any happier than like say your mom and dad when you were growing up or people that you and I both know that don't have financial means or success. Do you see any correlation in how, are they happier, less happy, more stressed, less stressed? That is a great question.

And you know, there's no straight up answer to that. Everybody's different. I can tell you that successful people have an easier time. They have the means to be happy. That doesn't make them happy. Right? Your mindset, your life, your way of being, the way you look at life, that makes you happy.

Right? But having the money and having success and having a beautiful house and the ability to jump your plane, all of that stuff, it makes it probably a little easier to set your mindset up, right? You also probably have the ability, if you have money, to have coaches that can, right? You also probably have the ability,

if you have money, to have coaches that can coach you in mindset. They have the ability to hire people to help you, right? Where if you don't have that, it doesn't make you unhappy, but you just have less means to, you have to work harder yourself. By the same token, you have less means to, you have to work harder yourself. By the same token, you have less distractions. So there are a lot of people that can,

that love to go, and by the way, what does that money mean, right? Like, to somebody with a $350,000 job, right? Like, that could be, that's money, right? They don't need to have $10 million, okay? They can live great on that, have a simple life, have a nice, you know, and be super happy, surf every morning, right?

You and I have friends that are doing just that. And they're super duper happy, right? So to me, you know, suffering is hard, right? Having a job, you could be suffering is hard, right? Having a job, you could be happy at any stage, but, and you could be unhappy at any stage. I have seen some really miserable billionaires, really miserable billionaires that have absolutely everything

and have absolutely nothing going on in their life, okay? And I have seen some valet parkers that are thrilled to be alive. You're right. Yeah. It's interesting that just today when we're recording this, I just had this show come out with this study that was done at Harvard.

It's an 85 year long study, dude. And they studied 2000 young men. A thousand of them were Harvard sophomores from probably pretty privileged backgrounds. Wealth abundance, most of them. And then another thousand of boys from like broken underprivileged families in Boston. Poverty, they studied them their entire life.

Like everything about them, not just like surveys, like in-home meetings, brain scans, MRIs, talk with their kids. And there is a correlation to exactly what you just said, which is that there's no correlation between massive wealth and happiness, but there is a correlation if you can't have your needs met. If you can't meet your needs and pay your bills

and eat decently and have a nice place to live and take care of your family in need in emergencies, that suffering does cause a lack of happiness. But the massive abundance doesn't necessarily do it. So what you've seen in your laboratory of your life is really true. How about this? Are any through lines on financially successful people? Because I've met, it's really hard for me,

I'll meet somebody that's like, man, what does that guy have in common with that lady who's also wealthy? And I've had a hard time taking away, what that guy have in common with that lady who's also wealthy? And I've had a hard time, like, taking away, like, what do they have in common? I think what I've seen is there's a level of confidence in their chosen craft that might separate them. But has there been a difference that you've observed

in financially abundant people, a through line with them in personality traits or behaviors they have that help them generate that wealth as opposed to those that don't. 100%. And let's throw away the lucky sperm club. Let's throw away the inheritance money. And let's just talk about the wealthy people

that are self-made. To me, there's a couple of characteristic traits that are there that make them, that are core traits. Competitive. Needing to win. Right, like that to me is a super, a great trait that is a common trait amongst people. There's one trait that I've seen a lot of wealthy,

successful people that I happen to think is a bad trait. Okay, greed. Okay. one trait that I've seen a lot of wealthy, successful people that I happen to think is a bad trait, okay? Greed, okay? And let's just start with those two, right? Like there's a lot of greedy, wealthy people out there and they're greedy because they need a lot of money and they just want money and they want money and they want money and they keep bringing it in, right?

But their decisions that they make in life are made from greed, and therefore, you know, people that work for greedy people are generally not as happy as people that work for competitive people. Really, true. Man, very true. Right?

Yeah. It could be a huge company, they could be kicking some ass, they could be making all the money in the world, but all their employees have a terrible culture. They have a terrible, you know, they hate it, right? Like they're making money, but they're not happy people. Or you can work at a company where the culture is amazing and the head guys, you know, so to me,

those are two traits that, you know, and the other trait that makes, that seems to be a common trait, and you said it, and you said it, and I have it, is fear. You do have it too? We, I definitely have it. I meant to go back to that. That fear is a very common trait. The fear of having a house over your head.

The fear of being able to provide for your family and your kids. The fear of putting food on the table the next day. The fear, you know, like all of that, right? And particularly if you've had it and lost it. Yes. Right, you've had the bankruptcy, you've had the whole thing, and then you rebuild again.

And then it's like, and you, and when you're an entrepreneur, you put everything at risk, because that's what an entrepreneur does, right? And so there's ups and there's downs and there's that, but that's the commonality that just continues to bring you back, right? And then hopefully keeping it. Okay, that surprises me about you.

Because I'm a very fear-driven person. I've leveraged fear all of my life. I mean, I think the way I got wealthy was, I don't even know that I wanted to be wealthy. I think I was afraid of being poor. And then even at this stage, I still leverage fear on myself pretty regularly. But I think you can almost see that on me.

I'm a pretty intense wound up dude a lot of the time. Whereas you, it seems like it's bubble gums and rainbows most of the time when I'm around you, because you're so positive. Even this story you tell in the book where you come home and Kyle says, how was your day? And you're like, it was the greatest day of my life. And so there's this mindset of yours.

So how do you nuance that duality of staying super positive? Because this is really profound stuff that you're saying right here that only really, Moe, I think the thing I admire about you is there's a level of genius with so much humility that you're unaware of your genius. I actually am not totally sure you know every reason why you've been successful,

because you have so much humility for a dude with such genius. So how do you know how you nuance, like, living in some fear, leveraging it, but at the same time, you're a really positive, optimistic person? Yeah, 100%. I'm an extremely optimistic, super positive guy. but I can also tell you, I had kids very

young. When I married Kyle and I met Kyle, I already had a five-year-old daughter, and I was 25 years old. I had Alexia at 26. I had, I had Farah, you know, so I had three kids before I was 30, okay? And I can tell you that I, I definitely have kind of that old world lifestyle where, you know, I'm a man and I need to provide for my family and I need to, you know, I am the provider even though I wanted to make sure, you know,

Kyle that made every decision in her life, right? I never wanted though I wanted to make sure Kyle made every decision in her life, I never wanted to hold her back. If she made money, if she did stuff, that was just extra. Right? That was great. But I never wanted to have that be her pressure. I needed to be the provider. And so because I was so young with kids, I definitely, and again I was borrowing money from my grandfather, from Kyle's mom, from my father, in order to keep a roof over my head, right? And in order to keep a roof over my kids' heads,

and to give them a perceived good life so that I can make them feel confident and all of that stuff. And so because of that, I developed a fear of losing, which also, despite all the risks I've taken, despite all the things I've done, I can tell you that I've been so conservative on so many investments that I've probably

have left a lot of money on the table. Me too. Okay? Me too. Because I haven't been willing to take that risk. So I have that fear. Me too. I'm just a positive son of a gun.

Me too. No, by the way, me too. By the way, I think sometimes guys like us are the ones that remain wealthy though when they get there. And I have that risk aversion too. It's so interesting how similar we are on this stuff. Now you said a good life. We'll know that much more time.

One of my favorite conversations ever is today. Because I get to see this side of you that I know but it's being revealed and then the rest of the world figures out, oh, that's how this dude did this side of you that I know, but it's being revealed. And then the rest of the world figures out, oh, that's how this dude did this. That's how I could do it. And success leaves clues. And Moe wrote a lot of the clues in this book

of how to become successful. This gentleman to my left, just to give you a background, this guy parlayed a 990 SAT score into a multi-billion dollar company that he built. We're going to get into your head about how you did that, but I'm overwhelmingly impressed with Impact Theory, which is an organization that he and his wife Lisa started the last few years that is really making a difference in the world, just like his company Quest Nutrition did. And so, Tom Bilyeu, thank you for being here today, brother.

Thank you for having me, man. I'm so excited to be here. We flipped the script before, so. I've been on his program, and now finally for being here today. Thank you for having me, man. I'm so excited to be here. We flipped the script before. I've been on his program and now finally I get you here. Were you like this young? So I know you didn't have the best SAT scores in the world, but I've been around you enough now. I consider you a freak, which is a compliment coming from a guy

like me. No, I take it as such. I think you know what I mean. You're uniquely driven and wired to pursue greatness and to make an impact, no pun intended, in the world at a level that most people have not yet realized they're capable of, even though they are. And so, did you know this young? If we went back and looked at this kid who grows up in Washington state, was there already these obvious insights and clues that you were going to turn into this guy?

What were you like as a young guy? Now, there definitely were not clues. So when I was a kid, I didn't show any signs of promise to be really fair. And my own mother, when I left for college, like she, I almost chickened out and I was like, I don't want to go. I want to just stay home. And she was like, no, no, no, you need to go. You need to go pushes me out of the nest. And then literally every day since,

she's tried to claw me back. So one day, like, I don't know, three or four years ago, I said to her, mom, like, you were the one that kicked me out. Like, I wouldn't have left if you hadn't pushed me. So why did you push me? And she said, with no malice whatsoever, I just always assumed you were gonna fail. Oh my gosh.

And now that was, she had never been like, always my biggest cheerleader, always rooting for me, telling me I could do it. But quietly just inside, she was like, you didn't show any drive. So the one thing I will say is I was grandly ambitious. I always said, I'm gonna be rich, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that.

Always, always since the time I was a little kid. But I didn't have the drive to see it through. So I really, really was an empty dreamer when I was a kid. And it was learning to hate that in myself, if I'm completely honest. And to not allow myself to be an empty dreamer, to force myself to get the skills to actually execute against it,

to not be in any way, shape, or form pacified by saying I'm gonna do something, which is actually super dangerous. most people just thinking about the fantasy of what they're going to do gives them some partial sense of, oh, I've done it. Whereas I stopped letting that be okay for me, which largely came down to embarrassment I felt around my wife working when I had no job. That was the time she was my fiance at the time Yeah, but that was when I really started to go okay You've made a lot of promises to this woman and you're not on a path to keep any of them. Well, I get our stories are

Unbelievable. I did not know that and our stories are unbelievably paralleled I was in the same situation by the way where I was sort of an entrepreneurial unemployed guy Well, she was paying our rent right so I relate to that too. How does, I'm just curious, I wanna make sure I just, I think you're one of the great American business stories. Wow man, thank you. And not only because of the wealth that you've accumulated, but because of, this word's overused, but it's so true with you, because of the impact

you're making in the world because of your success. That's what I admire, as you know, that's what I'm trying to do with the Max Up program too, and just with my life. So what I don't get is this connection. So just help me understand it, because you know that I know your story, I'm fascinated by it.

How do you get from a 990 SAT into USC? How I got into USC itself, this makes me a little sad. This is one part of the story I wish were a little different. I cheated all through high school. The one thing that... I graduated in the top 10 of my class. You're a good cheater. I was a good cheater. This is one thing I will say.

People talk about network and they talk about charisma and all. It's just real. I was nice. That got me a long way. I remember in seventh grade, so one of the guys I would later cheat off of in high school becomes my absolute best friend in the universe, but he's on the spectrum, right?

The autism spectrum. And in seventh grade, he wouldn't talk to anybody. And so I turned around one day and I was very outgoing at that time in my life, which I consider myself now just a dyed in the wool introvert. But at that time, the role in the family that I played was the jokester. So I was used to getting laughs and getting my self-esteem from my ability to make people laugh.

So I turned around to him in seventh grade, I point at him and I'm like, my mission in this class is to get you to talk. And so inside he was thinking, oh my God, somebody actually cares. And so then it became like, we just started attracting to each other. He is still to this day probably the smartest person I've ever met. It just became this unlikely pairing.

To give you an idea of how weird this kid was, and we're still close to this day, he talks of himself like this. My mom said if he doesn't start acknowledging me when I say hello to him, he's not allowed to come over anymore. She would literally say straight up to his face, hi, and he would say nothing. It was super weird. And so I was like, dude, you just gotta say hi back.

And so he credits me with teaching him social skills and I credit him with helping me graduate high school basically, so. But I always believed. Graduating high school. Literally. And I always believed that I could do the work, but that other things were more important to me.

So I told myself a total bullshit story, which was that, hey, I could be working and earning these grades, but I'd rather learn how to talk to girls and how to socially engage. It's total BS. I'm well aware of that now. But at the time it really felt totally justified. And I was like, they're not teaching us things that are going to help anyway. Nobody can answer why algebra is going to be useful to me. And so I just

felt like that was fine. But when I went to college, day one, I said, okay, I'm going to be taking on a massive amount of debt. I'm learning the thing that I love. This is what I want to do with my career. so I better actually know how to do it. So the phrase that I repeated in my head over and over and over was A or F, sink or swim, I will not cheat, not even one. It doesn't matter. Either one of those is acceptable.

The only thing I care about is that I do every bit of work myself and I stuck to that. So my grades in college are reflect, and I did better in college than I did in high school. And you didn't, is this true that you want to be a filmmaker? Yes. Right? Very much so.

But you didn't know that there was a difference between USC film school and USC? Dude, welcome to growing up in Tacoma. So first of all, like nobody really knew how this all works. So I went to USC because my dad had a friend who made almost an offhanded comment. My dad was like, Oh, my son wants to go be a filmmaker. And the guy was like, oh, USC is the best film school in the world. And so my dad comes home and goes, I hear USC is the best film school. So I was like, well, I guess I'm going to USC then. Literally, I didn't even think beyond that.

It is the only film school that I applied to. I applied to one state school and then to USC, and that was it. And I got into USC, and I just thought the way college worked was you tell them what your major is, right? People talk, you declare your major. Right. So I thought cool, I'll go declare my major and then in the prep, so I've already committed,

I've already said I'm going to USC, I've turned down the other offer that I had at the state school, it's done, I'm going to USC, taking the financial aid package, all of it. Then they come to your town and they orient you to what it's going to be like and they show you pictures and all this stuff. I'm so excited. Then, I don't know if I asked a question or if it just came up, and they said something

about how to get into the film school, it's a separate application process. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Your heart dropped. What do you mean? Literally, my heart dropped through the floor. I was like, oh, God. Then I was like, what are the requirements? They said, well, we'd like to see a 1300 on your SAT. I was like, oh God. And so then I was like, what are the requirements? And they said, well, we'd like to see a 1300 on your SAT.

And I was like, what do I do now? And that was the beginning of like real panic. So what did you do? So I go to USC and I'm like, somehow I'm gonna figure this out. And you have mandatory counseling. And I go to the counseling and they look at what I've signed up for.

And I've signed up for a film classes like I'd already been accepted to the major. And they said, Tom, listen right now, you're gonna end up spending a fifth year at this school because statistically you are more likely to get into Harvard Law than you are into USC film school. Do not do this, we see people do this every year. Get out of these classes,

take normal general education requirements. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm gonna get in, I'm gonna get in. And it's the one time in my life where someone looked me point blank in the face and they said, you are going to fail. Like it in the face and they said you are going to fail. Like it's not a question of if you are going to fail, you are going to spend a lot of money and they were doing it from the position of like, look, I don't want you to waste the

money. But they were so aggressive about it and there was something in them telling me that I couldn't do it. That was like, I'm definitely doing this. And so I found there was a guy that was on the admissions committee who offered like you could go join him for lunch And so I went he made the offer to like a class of 350 people and I was the only one who showed up And I was like, how is this possible? So I say to him look I got a 990 my SATs What do I do? I really want to get into film school and he said Tom SAT stands for scholastic aptitude test

It's supposed to tell me how well you'll do on college. You've already missed the freshman class. You're not gonna get accepted then. So you can only get accepted as an incoming junior, but as an incoming junior, I don't care about your SATs because I have two years of college to look at. So he said, if you don't want me to worry about your SATs, just get good grades.

So I said, cool. For the next two years, all I'm gonna do is get good grades. I didn't date, I didn't party, I didn't drink, I literally didn't leave my dorm room. I worked, I put my head down for two years and I just worked. And I got, if it wasn't a 4.0, it was like a 3.95

or something, so. It's never that clean. Like, I want my story to be, hey, I learned that if I just put my head down and work my ass off, I can get whatever I want. That is unfortunately not what I learned because I believed at the time you're either talented or you're not So I wasn't in film school to become a filmmaker. I was in film school to learn the technical side How do you turn on the camera? Where do you put a light things like that?

But I thought you either have the ability to tell a story or you don't so I believed myself to be a natural filmmaker I just believed I had talent and so I go to film school and everything is proving. So first I gamble, right, and I take all the film prerequisites, even though they tell me not to. I get into film school, so that feeds my ego. Then second, so you have two classes that are like testing you to see where you're at as a filmmaker, and I smash it.

First class, smash it, and your second class, you have to team up. and basically everybody wants to direct and anybody that wants to be a cinematographer that's good, all the directors are fighting for them. And so not only did I get the cinematographer everybody wanted but I got to direct. And then we killed our film, it was amazing. So now I'm like, I'm the shit.

Like literally every egotistical belief that I had about myself being naturally talented is just happening for me. It's effortless, I'm not even putting that much energy into it, I mean other than the physical production which is exhausting, but I'm not like trying to be more artistic, I'm trying to learn how to turn on cameras and stuff like that,

but I'm just a naturally talented filmmaker. So everything in college is leading towards only four people in your class get to direct a senior thesis film. So all the people, everybody else crews, but four people get to direct. And I was chosen as one of the four. So literally the narrative in my head is I am naturally talented. You either have it or you don't. And I have it and I'm very grateful that I have it.

And then I make my senior thesis film and it is the most catastrophic, horrific, crash and burn, embarrassing thing I've ever gone through. The class is making fun of me, they're cutting up reels of my film to make a joke out of it. I mean it was abysmal and in that moment I realized the cold hard truth and this is when I tell this story people think, oh now he's just being hard on himself or being overconfident. I'm telling you right now, I didn't have talent. And so in that moment I realized, I don't know how to tell a story.

So whatever natural talent looks like, I didn't have it. It was so bad I stole the master from the school. Yes, because I never wanted it to be seen again. So like that, this is a really, so that leads into the darkest period of my life. So I graduate and you would think, hey, but you worked so hard to get in film school, why isn't that the ringing narrative?

And it just wasn't. The ringing narrative was you thought you were talented, you're a fool, you don't know anything, and I couldn't afford to furnish my apartment, so I was literally laying on the floor of my apartment. I had an air mattress, but I was laying on the floor of my apartment. With a degree from SC.

With a degree from SC, taking every remedial job that I can get because now my ego is so crushed. Smashed. I need to be the smartest person in the room. It's like the only thing I have left. Well, at least I'm naturally smart. So I just put myself in dumber and dumber rooms, which means I'm making less and less

money. I'm selling video games retail at one point. I mean, it was really bad. You're putting yourself in dumber and dumber rooms so that you are the smartest person in the room. Correct. Got it. I wouldn't interview for a job unless I knew this person at some point in the interview will say, why are you interviewing for this job?

You're better than this. It's interesting to me the takeaways you have from experiences because in life it's not the experiences that happen to us, it's the meaning we take from them. And it's interesting to me that even you getting into film school, even your takeaways are deeply unique and very self-aware.