THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Why You Should Never Try to Win an Argument with Jefferson Fisher

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

If you're always trying to win every argument, you're losing something even more valuable. That’s the core of what Jefferson Fisher and I get into on this thought provoking episode. I sought Jefferson out because he doesn’t teach communication like anybody else. He’s not just sharing fluffy ideas—he’s equipping you with real, specific language that will change how you lead, how you listen, and how you handle conflict. We talk about what happens when you're in a conversation with someone who constantly needs control, someone who dominates, picks on you, or flat out disrespects your boundaries. Jefferson explains how to take the remote control out of their hands and hand them the manual for how to engage with you instead. That’s when you start reclaiming your peace and your power. We unpack how silence is the ultimate signal of confidence. Not yelling. Not overpowering. Silence. The best communicators and the best leaders don’t rush—because confidence isn’t loud, it’s steady. If you’ve ever struggled with pacing your words, managing emotions in heated moments, or just knowing when and how to end a conversation, this is your masterclass. And if you've been allowing certain communication patterns in your life for years—letting people talk to you in ways you know you shouldn’t tolerate—Jefferson gives you the language to change that dynamic today. Not tomorrow. Not after another fight. Right now. Key Takeaways: • Why trying to “win” every argument costs you connection, influence, and respect • How to reset boundaries—even after years of tolerating unhealthy communication • What to say when someone gets passive-aggressive, disrespectful, or flat-out rude • The secret to controlling the pace of a conversation—especially when emotions run high • How silence, tone, and timing can make you a more effective communicator and leader This is one of those episodes you’ll want to replay with a notepad. Jefferson’s wisdom will help you be more respected at work, more present in your relationships, and more in control of how you show up in every conversation. Max out. 👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈   → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ←  ➡️ INSTAGRAM   ➡️FACEBOOK   ➡️ LINKEDIN   ➡️ X / TWITTER   ➡️ WEBSITE    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. This is The Admiring Show. Alright, welcome back to the show everybody. I try to make it a practice not to have a lot of attorneys on the show. It's just sort of a rule of thumb. I'm just kidding to all my attorney listeners. But in this case, this man's work is so good. And I mean this, I sought him out. I like when I see a relatively new face on the scene

that is doing work that is not like everybody else's, that it's his own. And then I believe his work can dramatically impact your life from a productivity standpoint, a peace of mind standpoint, an influence standpoint. And he's got a book out right now called The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More. And I consider him, and I don't say this often, to be a communication expert. And you will see that reveal itself throughout the next hour. You are gonna learn so much and take so many notes today

from Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, welcome to the show finally, brother. And thank you so much for having me. I am truly honored to be here. It's a pinch me moment. It's great to meet you, dude. Yeah, likewise. I have to tell you, my two kids,

my son's a professional golfer, my daughter's a junior in college, and I sort of had three things I wanted them to leave my house with when they were little. I wanted them to leave with their faith because in there is sort of their morals and ethics and values. I wanted them to leave with a bunch of self-confidence,

which I think under that, if you got confidence, you work hard. But the third thing that surprises most people is I wanted them to leave me with world-class ability to communicate. I believe it's a separator in our world today. And what you teach and the way you teach it is as good as I've ever seen it before, brother. And so I kind of want to get into this. The book's awesome, by the way. I read it in a lot of day and a half. It's awesome. My note version of it, by the way, but I want, let's just start out kind of like with argument stuff. Okay. You're, you're an attorney by trade. First off, are you still practicing? That's a, and then inside that answer,

kind of one of the big rules of the book is never win an argument. But I'm like, isn't that sort of the job of an attorney? So help me navigate those two things at once. Yeah. Well, one is I am still practicing. I am slowly learning how to transition out of that. I have a wonderful team. I'm able to delegate a lot of my cases. But right now I'm almost more of a leverage chip in settlements. It's kind of this weird thing where jurors know me and so judges and court staff know from my content. And so being involved is also advantageous in certain ways, but slowly learning to develop

and be in this space like we were talking about. So it's getting there. Second of all, what do attorneys do? You're supposed to win every argument. You're an attorney, oh, you must win a lot of arguments. It's an absolute lie, and I'll tell you why. You may get to choose your client. Do I sign this person up?

Do I not sign this person up? But you don't get to choose your facts. You don't get to choose the law. You don't get to choose the evidence. And so what you have to do is, it's really more about giving the facts a voice. You're being an advocate for your client's story, for their position, for their perspective of how something happened.

And so is the other side doing the same thing. I don't get to choose the facts, the evidence. Instead, what I have to do is advocate, and then it is up to the judge to apply that law to the evidence for the jury to determine. So to say we win arguments, that's just not true. A lot of the times the law is what does it for us. You just follow what the law says. You might be on the good side of it and the losing side of it, so to speak, but it's not

a win loss thing. What about with another human being? Why would you write a book about communication and argue less, talk more, but then really rule one is don't win? Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that what you mean when I approach a conversation with somebody or is that you literally mean that? Don't try to win an argument.

I literally mean that. If you go into always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time. When I'm arguing in front of a judge and the other side's arguing, again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a law that is applying to this. And they just, I might have more precedent

than the other person and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better, but you get into, especially in the courtroom, the ceiling of, well, I have to win a lot of trials. Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes. If you want to spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. But the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now.

That if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that how to win every argument, it's lying to you because what you're going to do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship. You're going to lose their respect. They're going to close themselves off from you. You're going to be less approachable. You're going to lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument. What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out with his content.

You guys is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, boss, and personally supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of wrestles the wrong word,

but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a commerce? You know what I mean when I say that? That you have people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not, they're in charge, you're not, they're picking the restaurant, you're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first, because I think more people find themselves in visible pecking

order conversations almost than maybe they realize. Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's, if it's one-on-one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back, you just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant.

Biggest thing you're gonna do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not gonna push back because they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's back where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask.

This ability to kind of be in the pocket and your communication. The temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving? Oh, that's great, I just went twice. Oh, you know Ed? It's great, yeah, you need to. And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop,

how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say is the person most likely the least removed from the actual

true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet. You said it about leaders too.

It struck me where you said, actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader, correct? Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it. Who do you think you're talking to?

And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove. They have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the best leaders have a calm energy about them.

When they're on the floor of whatever's happening, instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on? Okay, we need to do this. And they start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where we're moving forward.

So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor.

Bro, they're so good. You by the way, you exhibit that by the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on, even before we went live, there's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was

actually broadcasting. And so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts. And then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words saying the same thing other people take more words to do.

And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, they're fewer words they use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting. I wanna make sure everybody gets the book too, cause we're going into a lot of stuff. It's the next conversation, argue less, talk more. What if you're with somebody who, I used it earlier, but I wanna go a little bit deeper.

They pick on you. They kind of gnaw at you a little bit. Everything is almost passive aggressive in the way they say things. And you find yourself almost being put down subtly when you communicate with this person. And I find this an awful lot lately with couples that are friends of mine, married couples. There's this subtle dynamic where they both are a little bit passive aggressive with one another and the way they communicate. And I feel empathy for the one that I think is the one receiving most of the aggression.

Is there something you can do when you feel like someone's communicating with you that way? Is there a phraseology or a strategy for that? Let's separate into two different categories. So one let's say is kind of this more just passive aggressive bucket. The other is let's ramp it up to somebody being a little bit more overtly disrespectful or rude. So in this first bucket, this passive aggressive, these are people that most likely

just have grown up that way. This is what they saw, mirrored conversation and arguments throughout their life. And they don't know how to express that kind of thing. So when they slide in that negative comment that you know there's something to that, a simple question of like, should I read into that? Or is there more to that?

Or, and this goes for Chris Foss, a dear friend, and I love his question is, sounds like you have a reason for saying that. I love that phrase. I also love, sounds like there's more to that. So anytime you can just quickly ask, sounds like there's more to that, or ask them, should I read into that?

That tends to draw out the passive aggressiveness because they're not expecting you to kind of call them to the floor. On the flip side, if somebody is saying more aggressive things towards you, my recommendation is begin your question with, did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound rude?

Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt my feelings? Did you say that to offend me? And when you say, did you mean, it is twofold. One is giving them the grace of perhaps they said it in a way they did not mean, and it's gonna allow them to fix it. Like, at least with me and my wife, if we're texting

and something seems like it's off, instead of saying, why are you being so short? What's wrong? Yeah, yeah. The question, ask the question, did, why are you being so short? What's wrong? Yeah. Yeah. The question, ask the question, did you mean for that to sound short? Instantly, almost every time, but my, you know, it is like the, oh, no, no, no, no, sorry.

I'm picking up the kids or I, you know, I was checking out the grocery store, I getting gas. You know, you, you get that, that K or okay. And you're like, oh, okay. I guess, I guess they hate me right now. All right. Like, I guess they're in a mood. And then you naturally get in a mood and then you respond defensively, which causes them to respond offensively.

And now you've convinced yourself you're under attack. So it's this feedback loop that's not helpful to you. So when you begin with, did you mean, it's a great way to set somebody to one, give them that grace of fixing it, but two, it's calling attention to what they were wanting to do. Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Or did you mean for that to sound rude? Like that is a very quick way to address it out in the open and if they're going to double down on it or not. Will you do that in reverse? By the way, this is so good.

Will you do that in reverse if you feel that what you've said has been misinterpreted? In other words, if you feel like you're, I do this better in business than I do personal life. To be honest with you in personal life, I think I just let everything out the window that I know that are tools, which is so stupid. When it comes to business, I'm pretty good at this. With friends and family, I devolve into the most emotionally immature person sometimes. But so let's say we have gone

back and forth and maybe I've said something the other way that they're hurt by. Will you slow a conversation down, for example, and say something like, what did you hear me say? How will you handle that if the person is now coming back at you for something they believe you said that's passive aggressive or demeaning or rude? Awesome question. This happens all the time, especially in relationships, but I'd say even work too. When somebody tells you something, you've been in that situation where somebody is going, that's not what you said. You said this and they kind of give a voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and

gives an intonation in it. And you're like voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and gives a intonation in it and you're like, I didn't say it like that. And all of a sudden now you're going, that's not what I said. I didn't say it like that. You're just pushing what you thought you conveyed and nine times out of 10, it is inaccurate because what is said is not always what's received. So instead of this, that's not what I said. You are going to ask the question, what did you hear? What did you hear? Because now it's not about what I am putting out. I am now getting curious of what you heard because that's what matters.

Anytime you had that kind of confrontation or that miscommunication, instead of going, no, no, no, that's not what I said and kind of dismissing their whole experience or their perspective. By the way, it's very hard to judge. It's like making your own movie, but not having an audience and going,

no, no, that's not how the movie goes. It's like nobody else has seen it. Only you're the one who thinks it's that way. So when you ask the question, what did you hear? And they explain it, that's when you say, that was not my intent or I apologize for that impression. Or I would recommend is begin your sentence with I can see.

I can see how you'd feel that way. I can see how that came up. Whenever you say, I can see why you'd feel that way. I can see why that would upset you. That I can see just says, hey, I took a second to walk over to where you're standing and I turned to look the same way that you're looking. And I can confirm, yeah, what you see is reasonable. What you see is justified.

You know what? That makes sense. I can see that. And that right there just goes, boom. It naturally takes down the aggression, this I have to win. You have to see it what I see. Anytime you can do that and use words of perspective,

like view, perspective, see, that is going to help somebody go, oh, I feel heard, oh, I feel understood. And by that, they're gonna be more receptive to the progress. This is so good. You guys, just so you know, when you're listening to this, the reason I wanted Jefferson on

and the reason I think there should be more work in this topic is there's like only two or three people in the world that even discuss this stuff. And it may be in the top three most important things in life, to be able to communicate your point and to be able to overcome adversity and a conversation and a difficulty and maintain or extend relationships.

This is not stuff that's taught anywhere yet it should be. What do you do? Gosh, I'm thinking of a situation I have with a friend who, and I don't remember this being in the book, so this will be a tough one. They go silent on you. In other words, the conversation is going a particular way. And I don't know, maybe it's me. I do start to win and maybe they can feel it, you know, like, and they just get quiet.

And I'm like, are you still there? Hello? Is there something you would say to re-engage somebody who's giving you the silent treatment or gone cold on you or every time a conversation gets to a certain point, They just disengage completely or as your suggestion Don't let it get to that point by using some of these tactics and strategies, but is there a way When they disengage and go quiet that you can bring them back in. Yeah, we're here's where you go wrong is When somebody's giving you that silent treatment, there's this temptation that we

started to say ugly things, like in romantic relationships, you'll start to kind of say hurtful things in hopes that they bite back. Because all you're wanting is just to feel like you're not alone. So you're wanting that engagement. That happens sometimes in toxic relationships. Now there are techniques that we can use to not get to that point, but let's say you're already there. Let's say you're already there. Let's say you're already there, they're distance from you.

There's nothing you're going to be able to say, nothing you can do physically to just grab that person and say, come back to the conversation, highlights the importance of not letting it get to that point. But what I would recommend is if somebody is giving that distance, you give them that distance. So maybe it's a day, maybe it's two days, because what it's highlighting for you is that you're wanting the conversation just to hear yourself. You have not been in the conversation to hear the other person. And when they are taking the time, sometimes that is needed.

Sometimes there's wisdom in that of taking the time to think and disengage and give it a break. And if you need to, then what I would say is you message that person, you leave a voicemail for that person if they don't respond to your call and say, hey, I feel like we're miles away. It's important to use distances. I like using distances in conversation.

So you feel a mile away from me right now, or I feel like we're 50 yards apart. Whenever you use distances, it's a great way of saying, hey, of saying you can feel that we're off instead of saying, hey, what's wrong with you? Or, hey, you seem off or you, what's going on, what's wrong. When you can use distances of,

I feel like you're far away from me right now. I, at least I do that even in my life, is a great way of not getting them defensive. But you call them, say, hey, I feel like we're far away. I'd really like to get closer. I wanna find a way that we can talk again, or hey, just letting you know I'm here, wanting to talk to you, I hope to hear from you soon.

Any way that you just say, I'm not trying to pressure this at all, because you need to give them that space to continue to think about it. Or you can also say, hey, I think it was smart of you to give this conversation some space. You're right, I needed that, and we'll love to touch base with you soon.

So you're giving them credit for their choice. So when you're saying, you know, almost like a, hey, good job, thank you for trying to get us back on track. They will take that and go, okay, yeah, that was my intentional choice to help us. Rather than you saying, hey, you know what, you're not talking to me. If you don't wanna talk to me, that's fine.

That kind of stuff is going to further pull them apart. So good, Jefferson. When I'm in a conversation that I feel like I'm it's getting away from me. Let's say that that could be a sales negotiation. It could be a conversation with a friend, you name it. I feel like in my case, most of the time, it's speeding up faster than I want it to. You talk about this in rule one, number six is control the pace.

And as I listen to you, I mean, you're very cognizant even of your pace and the way that you communicate even on the show today and even in your content. You do. You're actually a little faster when you do the content from your car than you are right now on the show. You're even a pace slower today than you are in your car. So I watch that like tonality and pacing. Yeah, let's talk about that in a conversation because with my, when emotions run high, oftentimes for me, I feel like the conversation is speeding up where my, my, uh, intellect is now not quite as sharp as my emotions are running, if that makes any sense. So what are strategies to control the pace and what does that even mean?

Yeah. I love that you picked up on that. Anytime you are getting that fight or flight, and I know all of your listeners, highly educated, they know fight or flight. Whenever you're getting emotionally flooded like that, that's why you're having trouble finding your thoughts and connecting things. And that's why the quicker you get, maybe you've felt it where you're either nervous, same thing when you're really mad, you might stammer. And you might go like, no, no, no, that's not,

and you're having trouble getting words out. It's because you're just flooded. Your emotions are there. Your logical and analytical side is not. And so what I teach every one of my clients before they go cross-examination and I'm just offering them up to the wolves is a constant reminder of you control the pace, not them.

That means no matter how fast somebody is peppering you with questions, the conversation cannot happen any faster than you respond. So whenever they ask you a question and you give a rapid fire answer back, or worse, you start to step over their question because you already see where it's going,

bad things happen. You say things you don't mean, you say things that are not fully thought out. That's why even in romantic relationships, all of a sudden you blurt something out and you go, oh, that's, oh man, that's not what I mean. And you already knew as soon as it came out of your mouth, you put your foot in your mouth and you messed up.

It's because you weren't controlling the pace. That means you need to slow down your words and that you need to leave space between what they said and how you're going and when you're going to respond. There's a difference if you were to ask me if you said, hey Jefferson, how was your day? And I said, good, it was real good. I mean, it was really good, thanks.

Versus, hey Jefferson, how was your day? And I said, it was good. It was a good day. Like you can just hear the difference in which one listened to the question, which one thought about the answer, which one makes the other person feel acknowledged or heard.

Same thing with, that's why rule number one is, say with control. If you go down and let's say you're at work and all of a sudden you go, what's wrong, what happened, what's going on? And you, all you're sensing and telling the other person is you're grasping for control versus you come in, take a breath, and then you're saying,

all right, what happened? Give it to me. Like people are looking like we said for those emotional anchors. So what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. That's how you set the pace of a conversation. So where your first word would be,

put a breath in its place. And what it's like gonna do is keep your analytical side engaged into where you do not allow yourself emotionally, to get emotionally flooded. And the second benefit is, neither does the other person, because now you are also injecting the time and forcing them to slow down.

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in to pay attention. Is that any part of your belief system and influence or persuasion in a conversation? Yeah, the, the idea is you want to lower your voice. No, I'm not talking really low. It's just, you want to make sure it's always a downward inflection. When you want to make statements that are foundational statements that are concrete statements that are, this is my value or my boundary. Um, when you have an upward inflection, it makes it sound like

you're always asking a question. Like if I was going to ask you, say, pass the salt, I wouldn't say, can you pass the salt as if like, I doubt your ability to do it. Or as if you don't know what salt is, it's the downward inflection. Can you pass the salt? So you want to make sure that you have a lower register instead of something that's really high. Same thing for like music.

You take, for example, if you are always listening to fast paced music, it, it encourages aggravation. It encourages anxiety to some extent. Trust me, I like all kinds of music, but my point is if you start to versus if you listen to something that's more easy listening, it will slow down your brain waves, it slows down your entire feeling of how you're reacting. So when you are able to use a voice that is lower in tone, it sounds a lot more in control. There's a difference. If I were to say, for example, um, I already told

you, I'm not going to do that versus I already told you, I'm not going to do that. Like one sounds like it's grasping for control and it's not in control. The other says, I am fully in control of this moment. Bro, you made me just think of my dad. My dad was a yeller when I was a young man. So he used his voice the worst possible way, right? Aggravations, stress, anxiety. He could take a situation that was a two and make it a 22 in

like a second. However, as my dad got older, one of the things I noticed about my father, when I had a major life problem, like a big, big one, you know, like one of those once every eight or nine years, I'm in big trouble type things. And I would call my dad. He would slow down the conversation. His voice would get deeper. And there was this, just his pacing and tonality And there was this just his pacing and tonality, calmed me down multiple notches. So much so that to this day, my father's passed away, that I have imaginary conversations with my dad when I'm under stress, where I am listening and mirroring that specific tonality of his,

where he slowed it down and calmed it down and gave me a sense of peace about the conversation to the extent that it was so influential on me that I will have these conversations with him even though he's not here because it calms me down. That's how powerful what you're, yeah, it's how powerful what you're suggesting is that when your children come to you

under stress or in trouble, I've worked so hard in those specific moments of just listening to them and slowing it down a little bit, getting a little deeper in my register. Go ahead. You were going to say, no, I was going to say you're spot on. And I loved that. I think that is so, I mean, he was your, that was the anchor in the conversation. I find that same way with the kids, like we never, for the parents that are listening,

you never, you always wanna be the person that your kids run to for help, you know, when they make the mistakes. And if you always yell at them and raise your voice, they're not gonna to come to you. But when you can be a safe space and say, slowly, thank you for coming to me with this. You know, that's going to just encourage that dialogue. The slowing down is a, there's a lot of wisdom in that.

There is brother. Well, since we're talking about kids, let's stay on one little topic. What if you're interacting with someone who's behaving like a kid, meaning you're just you're interacting with somebody who's emotionally immature. And now you got to have a grown up conversation with this person that you know is emotionally immature. And every time the conversation gets a little bit more stress, their maturity

level drops even further. What are some of your thoughts in dealing with someone like, because we've all got those people around us, we may even love them, their maturity level to have a productive conversation is not always matching what we would like it to be. What do we do with them? Right. Well, let's first set out that you have to choose whether or not you want to have that conversation with that person. If that's the person I have the conversation with. Um, you know, because there's, there's all kinds of different types. And my view, you need to be very clear about, I mean, you use the word boundaries, but not in a, in a woo woo kind of way.

I'm using it in terms of gatekeeping your peace of mind, meaning you're gonna use words that sense, establish signal boundaries, like what you accept, what you allow. Those are the two big ones. So if I were going to say, I don't accept the way you're talking to me right now, versus you can't speak to me that way.

Like there is one says, if I say you can't speak to me that way. Like there is one says, if I say, you can't speak to me that way to somebody who's emotionally immature, all they're going to do is go, well, yes, I can, like they're not going to see behind the words, but if you, instead of beginning with you, you see how if I say, you can't speak to me that way, I'm just, it's like they have a remote control and I push in my buttons and I'm saying, you can't press that button, but I gave them the remote. Instead, it's, you want to have this idea of giving them a manual, saying, hey, look,

if you turn to page 76, paragraph two, you'll see, I don't respond to that tone. Like it's, that's the kind of power that you'll be able to have when you use words like accept or allow. It's saying, I don't allow people to speak to me that way. I don't allow people to yell at me. I don't allow people to disrespect me.

There is a sense of control that you're going to feel and a sense of confidence you're going to gain, when you stop giving remote controls and start giving out manuals for how they are going to be able to speak with you, that if you're gonna engage in this conversation, this is what them's the brakes. These are the rules. This is how we're gonna go through that instead of going, oh, I gotta deal with this person. No, you don't got to deal with them. They have to deal with you. It's so good. I want to ask you about that.

So I do consider you such an expert of this. This is a hard one. What if you've already been with someone? So you're in a dynamic with them where you have accepted this way of being communicated to. So it would be a little bit off puttingputting at that time to say something like, I'm not going to accept you communicating with me this way. Is it just as simple as changing a couple words and saying, listen, I know I have accepted this in the past,

but I am no longer going to accept having you, or is there something else you would say? In other words, you've established a dynamic, it's been five years, three years, 10 years and that's it. You're not going to do it anymore. So, that's a little bit harder than the first time, right? That's why I'm pushing it here because I know people listening are like, I would do that the first time but I've been with this guy or I've been with this lady now for six years and I have allowed them to walk on me verbally this way for quite a while. That's the toughie and I'm wondering what you would do in that case. So, what I would do is I would make it very clear right then and there. I would begin with something like I've made a choice and that choice starts today, or I've made a decision and that decision starts today. It is a, this is my bright line

of how I'm going to move forward. So even if it's as simple as, you don't have to go, well, here's what I don't want people to do. What I don't want them to go is, hey, I know how, you know, we've been talking in the past and you know, I know you've been talking to me that way, but I'm not gonna allow that anymore this time.

Like that is only the people that are intelligent, the people that are and know that they've been taking advantage of you will continue to poke down on you and they'll make fun of you for saying that kind of stuff. But that's what I don't want. That's more weaker position. Instead, it is a, I've made a choice

and that choice is going to be instated for the rest of this relationship or the rest of this conversation. So whenever you can say, I've made a choice or I putting this into action, you're using action verbs that say, I have made a decision and this decision is going to be how we move forward. Not a, just a random, you know, you're not going to talk to me that way.

But either way, even if you do, people are going to find ways that the people who enjoyed you not having boundaries are the ones that are going to be upset by them. So it's, it doesn't mean your boundary is wrong. It just means that it's working. So it's, you're going to have people that are frustrated that you're changing the dynamic regardless. You, uh, let's take it one level past, and then I want to ask you some stuff about in the book as well. All of this is in the book, you guys, by the way. It's also in his content which is basically here's how you know content is good. When I started on social media 99% of my videos were me in my car with a camera in my hand not driving. Here's some content and then it went viral. It's exactly how he's gone and that means it's the content standing on its own not the curation of it you know or the music behind it.

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in their communication with you. But you're dealing with a narcissist. What do we need to know about narcissist in the first place structurally? Is there anything that you know, if this person is a narcissist, this is structurally who they are, what they do, and then any tactics or techniques in order to navigate conversations with them? Anytime you are having a conversation with a narcissist,

you're playing a game. You are on the board and it's a game of either praise or provoke, meaning that if you are not showering them with praise, Ed, they will turn around and start an argument with you to get you upset because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. They always want that from you.

It's that sense of control, whichever feeling that they can grab from you and suck out of you, that's exactly what they're going to do. It's a game and it's a rigged game. And the reason why I say it's rigged because it looks beatable. Like we've been in those conversations with narcissists

and then on the other side of the table and you go, if I can just only get them, if I can just say it this way, I'm gonna get them to understand. I'm gonna get them to apologize. I'm gonna get them to see the light and go, oh my gosh, yeah, you're so right. I can see how you are upset by that.

They're not going to do that. They don't, narcissists, they don't do empathy. They might know it hurts. They can't care about it. And so the first idea and mindset you need to have is that you're just not going to play the game. You do that by one, using phrases that are very short and to the point that they can't do anything with. So if you were to just to say, got it, noted, I hear you.

It's something as simple as that. It just kind of puts a wet blanket on the conversation. They can't draw from it. The longer your answer, I tell this to all my clients. So it goes really for any communication, but the longer your answer, the more questions you're gonna get every time. The more that you're gonna have to say.

Like you've sent that text message to somebody and it was like a paragraph and you're like, oh, this is the best, most poetic, put together text I've ever sent. And as soon as you send it, all they do is just pick out like one half of a sentence right in the middle and you're like, they didn't even address anything that I said.

Yeah, that was the point. So you said too many things, you need to give just a little bit. Two, you need to find ways just to take yourself out of that conversation. Or what I also like to do, and this is a go-deep moment with me and you here is that when I am cross-examining a narcissist, typically some type of expert witness,

somebody who feels like they just have the ego of, it just out of control that they're the only person who could ever have an opinion, is you use their thoughts about their reputation. So if I'm questioning a witness and he, and I know he's a narcissist, I might say, and you think the jury's gonna like that. And it might just be me and him in the room,

I say, and you think the jury's gonna like that. Well, well, because now he's thinking about the jury. Or if I were to say, if you think others are gonna be okay with that, now they're thinking outside of it, because they really don't care about you. They care about the others. And so whenever you can get them to think about their reputation

outside of the conversation, they change the dynamic so that they can make themselves feel good about it in that moment. That's very good. What about exiting a conversation? I'm not good at it. Not good at it? Well, socially, I'm regularly telling a friend or my wife, like, don't leave me alone too long. Because I don't know how, I have several skills communication wise, but one of them is not like, we've sort of tapped out this conversation, we've maxed this one out, let's exit gracefully. So whether that's on the phone or in person, the only thing I've ever stumbled into is starting to speak in the past tense, but I'd like to know your strategy on that if you do that as well. But

like, what do you do? You don't have to tell them, Oh, everyone's been there, they're cocktail party and you get bumped into this wonderful person. You're eight minutes in, you're like, I'm going to be here all night. If I can't somehow rotate out of here. Yeah. How do you do it? Well, you can just do what we do in the South. I think we just slap our thigh and go, well, yeah, you're as good, you know, very good, very good moving. All right.

No, it's a real easy trick that I like to teach is that you just loop it. So whatever you began talking about at the beginning, so let's say it's family or work, whatever, it's typically something very surface level like that. You just loop it there at the end. So if you started talking about family, that means you're going to end with, well, I'm glad to hear the family's doing well. I'll, you know, I'll, I'll see you around or I look forward to catching up later. Have a good evening.

Whatever it is, you just kind of close a loop of whatever you first started talking about. There are some people that also like a method of acting like you're the one kind of inconveniencing their time when you're like, all right, I'll let you get back to it. All right, well, I know you're busy. That cuts both ways.

Sometimes it sounds really disingenuous if it's like, what do you mean? I don't have anything going on. It's just me and you in the corner here. If, so you kind of have to feel that out, I feel like. But for the- Do you ever use the past tense? Like, I gotta tell you, I've enjoyed this so much.

It's so good to see you. Do you do that? I mean, and be sincere about it, but it allows by past tense phraseology, at least for me, if they are actually listening, which maybe they're not, they go, oh, we're at the end of this conversation, not in the middle of it anymore.

Yeah. Whenever you can say it was or it's been, anytime you can use past phrases, that is, it's just saying, Hey, this is our signal that the conversation has now ended. We are now talking about it as it's now happened in the past. I'll see you when I see you. Yeah, definitely, definitely. That's, that's a great way to do it.

Okay. A few more things I want to ask you, can you free frame a conversation after it's over? So it's done. You and I've been texting or we had lunch, let's say, or sales call that didn't close or whatever. Do you believe that post conversation, you can reframe its meaning to some extent, meaning with a follow-up text or a follow-up phone call, are you a believer? I do a lot of that, frankly. So like throughout my day, when I have interactions with people, I really love in the evening, circling back with that person. And you know, I enjoyed our, and being sincere, whatever it was, I enjoy our time so much getting to know about your high school basketball career, you know, the new business you're

starting. And I like to frame or stamp a conversation and its meaning afterwards, post-framing a conversation. What do you believe about that? I think it's critical. I think what it does, you put the perfect word on it, stamp on it. It's a great way of, I've always said put a bow on it, to be able to just kind of package that conversation and now say, let's set it off to the side. Now it's almost a memory. Now it's more than just the transaction.

It is now an event that has happened that you and I can both look back on rather than just a exchange of hands and a handshake and back and forth. If you're able to thank them, show words of gratitude, then you're able to wrap up kind of maybe one sentence, half of a sentence of what you're able to achieve in that conversation. And three, you want to add on just a little bit of something unique, maybe something that they didn't think you listened to, something about maybe their

family or something about the favorite sports team or the name of their dog. Something like that, that allows them to just feel, you're sending the message of, dog. You know, something like that, that allows them to, it just feels, you're sending the message of, Hey, I actually listened to the person and see you for a person, not just ask for what you can give me, that's going to solidify and put a bow on it and put your stamp on it. That's going to say, this is something that, that, uh, that will last. This message is sponsored by green light. Hey guys, I talk about Greenlight all the time.

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wise? Uh, like, is this your pace and tonality from stage or do you pick up the pace? For example, when you first walk out, any other applications of your work? I'm just thinking of stage speaking as another forum for it. Yeah, definitely public speaking is useful because all of my lessons that I teach can also be applied to storytelling. My pace, you've already picked up that what I do in my social media videos have to be very fast because that's the way social media is.

If you're going to keep it less than a minute, you have to find ways fast because that's the way social media is. If you're gonna keep it less than a minute, you have to find ways to take 30 pages and turn it into two sentences. So you have to go a lot faster. On stage, I'm this speed, but I'm going to change and be more dynamic. And by dynamic, I mean my highs are gonna be higher, my lows are gonna be lower.

So you think of a symbol, like you can barely tap on a symbol here a little bit, you can hit it too and have a big crash. So you have to find ways to get in the pocket in your communication. And I love music, I play music, so that's why I like that term, you have to find the pocket.

So anytime the band's playing together, there's a part where you kind of start bobbing your head. You're like, oh, this feels good. Like something is hitting there. Everybody's on beat. Everybody's in sync. They are not going too fast. They're not rushing it.

They're also not dragging. They are in the pocket of the song. And so when you find that you can be in the pocket in your communication, whether it's in public speaking, whether it's interpersonal relationships, whether it's what I see a lot of these managerial roles. So this is a lot of consumers in my content are people that have people above them, like supervisors,

and also have people below them, and also have this other opportunity to communicate. So let's say like teachers, they have faculty, they have students and they have parents or nurses. They have administration, they have patients and they have other nurses, other people and doctors, they have to all communicate. So these principles that I teach in the book applied

to just about everything that you have that is giving you the power of what to say next. And so when you can find that you're getting in the pocket of your communication, that means you're having the confidence of saying exactly what you need to say at the pace and tone of exactly how you need to say it. And you feel good and you feel at peace at where you're at. You don't have one thing I've noticed about you. You're not one word reliant.

So I want to ask you about that. Just a couple more hacks you guys before we wrap up. But I a lot of people will overuse. You just did a piece of content I loved on people who say like, like, like, like, like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like. In my case, I have this reliance on literally. I overuse the word literally, right? I've just noticed it listening to my stage speaking, listening to podcasts. I literally use literally too much. So, let's just take somebody even who

uses the word like. I mean, and by the way, and everyone listening right now, you probably have a phrase or word that you use way more than you realize, right? They do. And so, I'm wondering about any strategy or tactic, we could even stay on like if you choose but should people be aware they do that to some extent as well? And I want to say literally, so I'll just let you answer. Well, yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, they're all adverbs.

They're all adverbs. Words in an L-Y or they try and do things in sentences that add a lot of fluff. So like is one of them. So just literally, essentially have a best friend who always start a sentence with. So basically, like you don't, those are both adverbs. It's very easy to do because we use that in social casual conversation. If you want to eliminate using the word like all the time,

swap it for the word because it forces you to move the conversation forward. So instead of saying something to the effect of, I didn't like when you said that, like it really made me feel less, versus I didn't like when you said that because it made me feel less. It's adding the cause and effect in there,

like it's just a fluff filler word. Literally is, as you know, also a big ad word. And what they do is they just water down your sentences. They don't mean anything. I, my, my one that I have is just, which is not great either. So you can tell the difference of somebody going, Hey, just want to check in versus I wanted to check in.

You remove the word just, it doesn't sound nearly as hesitant. The biggest thing with adverbs is you find a way not to use them. Like literally there's not a, there's not a flip or a word, I would say, you need to replace it with this. It's just not using the word. That's a lot easier, easier said than done. I'm trying to catch yourself and there's nothing wrong with them in casual

conversation, it's when you're wanting to be assertive when you're having to have a really important conversation, that literally kind of just clogs up the sentence because they don't know what to do with it. They hear it. Like there's a difference between if I were to say, so like, I mean, literally, if, I mean, maybe you don't think this way, but so I was just thinking like,

but essentially, and you're like, what are they saying? Versus just scrapping all of that and getting right to the point. What if you were all just a little bit better at all of this? I just want you to think about it. If you had a tool chest full of these things that you're just a little bit better at all of these things, you're a little bit more persuasive,

your content on social media is a little bit better, you're a little bit better in front of a crowd, your interpersonal relationships flow just a little bit better. Think about the implications of this in your life and is there much, are there many things you could do that could increase the quality of your productivity and your happiness more than what we're describing right now or instantly? Because I don't believe that there is literally no pun intended. So last question regarding silence.

So I've watched you today and you listen quietly. You don't do a lot of what I call emotional nudges. Uh-huh, yes, right. You don't speed me up. You listen to the end of a sentence. I just wanna give you a whole package on the topic of silence. My opinion is that the best communicators I know utilize silence better than other people.

Meaning the following, I'm going to throw the whole package at you. My best stand-up friends when they watched me speak, the advice they would give me, the ones that have been on the show is, Ed, a little bit more silence. Make the point and be quiet. Let the audience clap. Let them have the emotion before you move on to the next one. Don't talk over the punchline is one of the rules in comedy. Listening quietly, processing information after somebody speaks.

All of this whole package of just silence and its actual unbelievable ability to be communicative to people is the part that I wanted to finish with and maybe in my mind, the most important part of communication, just stage interpersonal persuasion, presenting all of it, listening silence. What does that mean to you when I say it? Silence is without a doubt the most powerful tool anybody can have in their communication because it may be the absence of words.

It's not the absence of communication. Silence is always communicating something. And even some of the best, I would say your best attorneys, your best lawyers are ones that don't try and step over the witnesses answer. They are listening intently. That's what I know, I have somebody on the other side I need to worry about, because they're not writing down notes,

they're not looking for their next question, they're just looking and listening. And when that's happening, I'm going, oh, okay. Now I'm with somebody who can play. So it is, anytime you're listening to somebody, if you begin to kind of really engage, I know that goes different for different types of people and their personality,

but when you can just sit and listen, it's saying I'm 100% devoted to this moment. I'm not wishing I was somewhere else. I'm not trying to speed this up so I can get out. I'm not trying to focus on me and what I'm going to say next and my story that I'm going to share, that's going to be hopefully better than yours.

It is just an appreciation for letting you shine, letting the spotlight be on you and me having this sense of wonder to say, what can I learn from this moment? And when you begin to have every one of your conversations with this mindset of having something to learn and not something to prove, better things are going to happen in your life when you start to slow down and realize where you're going.

I love where we went today, brother. You know, I really wanted to have him on for a while, you guys. And I wanted to do it in person, which you know, I don't do a lot of them like that lately just because of my health and this exceeded my expectations especially because we had to do it through zoom I really love your work and I think the application of it Jefferson from young children all the way to somebody who's been married 35 years wanting to make their marriage better and everybody in between can benefit from your work and so I really want to thank you for being here today and you're one of the people I have on that halfway through the interview I know I want to have him on again so at some point promise me we'll do this

thing again but we'll do it in person. In person absolutely man I can't wait it's been an honor brother yeah I I can't say enough good about it about you and what you what you stand for it so thank you for your legacy that you're leaving likewise brother hey guys you got to get the next conversation argue less talk more you just got a little sliver of it today the book is loaded it's it's there's no wasted pages it's like the stuff I write you guys it's not full of fluff it's a strategy and a concept and then specific tactics. You're gonna love it. Alright everybody, share today's episode. God bless you. Max out! you