The Frank Skinner Show - The Frank Skinner Show - Frank Skinner in Conversation with... Emily Dean

Episode Date: April 3, 2019

Frank Skinner's on Absolute Radio every Saturday morning and you can enjoy the show's podcast right here. Radio Academy Award winning Frank, Emily and Alun bring you a show which is like joining your mates for a coffee... So, put the kettle on, sit down and enjoy UK commercial radio's most popular podcast. Frank sits down with Emily to talk about her new book, 'Everybody Died, So I Got a Dog'. They discuss Emily's early life as a child actor, her bohemian upbringing, writing about grief and her dog, Ray.

Well, this is Frank Skinner and I'm with Emily Dean. I say that every Saturday morning. I mean, usually there's Alan Cochran is with us as well. But I think if I do this right, this time you get to do most of the talking. How will that be as a novelty? Oh, this is my absolute fantasy. And that's a new radio station that I will be launching. I look forward to the TV trailers.

So, Emily, you've written a book. You've taken a sort of Ron Seal approach to the title. In case you don't remember Ron Seal, they were the people who said it does what it says on the tin. Yes. I think your book is a fair example of that. So it's called? Well, you know what the title is.

And if you're offering a critique of it, may I throw that back at you? Because the title of the book is Everybody Died, So I Got a Dog. Everybody Died, so I Got a Dog. And I came up with the title when I was doing the radio show with you and Alan. And I remember talking to you saying, I don't know, it was mid link, I don't know,

ocean colour scene or something we're playing. And I said, I don't know what to call this book. And I remember, Frank, you said, just tell me what happens in the book. And I was trying to explain it to you. And obviously, there's a lot of complicated themes to get across. There's dogs, there's loss, there's a bohemian, weird childhood. And I didn't know how to incorporate all of those themes. And you said, well, just tell me quickly what happened. And I said, everybody died, so I got a dog. And I will never forget this.

As Ocean Colour Scene came to an end, you said, well, there's your title. forget this as ocean color scene came to an end you said well there's your title i wondered this book is um it's very very exposing it's very very um vulnerable making doing interviews about it you know doing lorraine talking about this is, is that very anxiety-making because it's a very precious cargo that this book carries. Very deep, very personal, very significant moments in your life. And one has to be careful, I imagine, that you don't cast your pearls before swine. No, I think that's a good point.

And I think, yeah, obviously there's my sister's death and my parents' death. I feel bad to Absolute Radio. I've gone in with the heavy stuff very soon. They won't like it, Frank. No, it's really fine. Okay, okay. But, you know, death happens. Sorry, business.

I think you're right. And there are private, intimate moments surrounding that. So I think when you're doing and there are private intimate moments surrounding that so I think when you're doing that kind of stuff I just have made decisions about that so for example I'll give you an example of that there was a newspaper that was extracting my book and the bit that they wanted to extract from my book was the moment that my sister dies and I absolutely refused because for me that has to be taken in the context of the whole book because her children are reading that and also just because I feel people do behave very oddly I discovered when around a deathbed and say and do strange unexpected things and I wanted to be honest about that but I think

if you take that out of context and you don't have any sympathy for those characters you don't know anything about them you'll just think these people are awful what are they doing so I've had to make decisions like that and I think with Lorraine Frank as you said Jeremy Vine that's a sort of different chat and I think probably because it's only seven minutes and you're sort of keeping things on a slightly lighter level, it's different. But I think you're right. I have had to give some thought to that. There are some things, for example, in the whole book

that I haven't put in that are private about my, for example, saying goodbye to my sister, because I think that's kind of between me and her. And I know you wrote a book and I, in fact, I wanted to ask you about that, because writing a memoir, it's difficult. But I did, I thought about, I remember reading your book when it first came out. Was it in the 90s or early 2000s?

2000, yeah. Okay, and... It is still available in... I know. It is. He had to do it. No, it really it's difficult because i don't want this to become a sort of mutual back slapping thing but i have to be truthful about that and i think i was most worried about you reading my book more than anyone i think because you're my

friend and i thought you'd say oh no don't go in the basement. It's dark down there, as in overexposing myself. But also, to me, given your book and how extraordinary I think it is, and I've read it so many times, that autobiography, thinking, what was that funny thing he said? So it felt, you reading my memoir, felt like inviting Heston Blumenthal around for dinner and having to rustle up a souffle.

I was so nervous. So I guess I want to ask you a question, which is how did you cope with that side of it as well, the exposing your innards? Well, I had a similar experience with the book. Not only was it serialised in a tabloid newspaper, but it was their first attempt. They wanted to abridge it.

So basically, I think, basically, coming from a position of tremendous disrespect for the intelligence of their readers, they wanted to take out some of the cleverer concepts and bigger words. And I really didn't want that to happen. And also they wanted to put in, I think, a couple of incidents of me in hotel rooms with women I'd just met on the same day.

I don't like that side of you. On the same day as the death of my mother, for example. And I, and I'm sure you felt like this about the death of your sister, for example. And I'm sure you felt like this about the death of your sister being included in a newspaper. I didn't want that to be one of my greatest hits. It's a bit... These things, they need a setting and they need a context. And if you take them out of that,

then I think that precious cargo I'm talking about is liable to get very damaged. I agree. And I think it's up to the writer, the owner of those memories, to protect them. Let's talk a bit about, I mean, your family, in a way, are the stars of the book. Even now they're dead, they're outshining me. It's so unfair. But for the section of the book when they're all on stage still, so to speak, they are a pretty remarkable bunch.

I mean, I've heard stories in the past, of course, about your family. So I recognise some of these, but there was a lot of new ones as well. Can you briefly summarise what it was like growing up in that family unit? Yeah, so I'd always, the phrase I'd always use to describe my family was sort of benevolent chaos. And they were a theatrical, bohemian, artsy family. They were arts and crafts. They were arts and crafts, they were.

But they were arts and crafts. There were arts and crafts. There were. I said crafts. But there were arts and crafts. And there was, you know, the atmosphere was permanent. There was this permanent haze of cigarette smoke and actors talking long into the night, sometimes about Shakespeare, sometimes about Doctor Who, which I thought you would enjoy, Frank, because I know you're a Doctor Who fan. But they, yeah, it felt wonderful to be part of it

because it was like being in a circus, you know? It was like we got to hang out with all these extraordinary characters who were all larger than life and everything was anecdotal. If you didn't have an anecdote, you were nothing. There was no point existing. That's how we all communicated with each other.

And so my sister and I were very much...'s like living in a green room isn't it but it is isn't it do you know I've never thought of it like that and I think that is honestly the best way I've heard anyone describe my childhood that's what I'm going to say from now on that's exactly what it was like or backstage it was like permanently in the wings so it was that sense of why would you say anything if it if it wasn't worth saying in an anecdotal setting or as you say in the green room you're telling stories all the time yeah so we learned to do that me and my sister I think from my parents um can I ask you a question about that because I watched a lot of documentaries about artists and writers and stuff like this. And I always come away from it, not always, but a lot of the time,

feeling generally for the children of Bohemians. I think it's great living the Bohemian life. I think it's often the kids who get the sharp end of it though. Do you think that's true of you? I do. I think it's often the kids who get the sharp end of it though. Do you think that's true of you? I do. I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's difficult because what you get out of it, you do end up with something, but it's not a sense of stability. And it's not, I think I was always conscious really as a child, actually, Frank, that I had missed out on innocence i really do i think

i would look at other kids and i was conscious they had an innocence that i didn't have and i was aware that i had a much older head on my shoulders and i knew you know my father was a brilliant man and i'm sad that you actually never got to know him because i think you would have really sort of liked him and got on with him but well i like him in the book do you yeah i like someone who in the middle of a family row will quote from hemingway i mean that that's my kind of guy oh but the level of that that's what would happen and so and i mentioned this in the book as well but you know that idea that if we were disobedient my parents would deal with that by writing shakespeare quotes And my mother

in her sort of calligraphic script, and she would stick them all over the house. They would never say, I'm furious with you, how dare you go to your room, we would walk downstairs, and there would be a quote saying, and this above all to thine own self be true, pinned up on the kitchen cupboard. And that was a way of communicating that we shouldn't have stolen that eyeliner from the shop or whatever that was it was that was just how they they like to communicate and but it's it means that as a person um you are a quite a performer in conversation. And coming from me, as you can imagine, that is not a criticism. I often look at people who aren't and think, yeah, come on.

Hang on, I remember telling you a story and you enjoyed this, which was we were at one of these, I think it was the director's house, one of the green room people, we'll refer to them now. And this sort of summed up my childhood, that this director turned round to somebody's, an actor's rather quiet wife, who was just innocently sitting there eating her meal, and said, you have contributed nothing to this evening.

Absolutely nothing. Now, to me, that... And you know what's the weirdest thing? I remember looking at that director and thinking, yes, he's right. I remember judging that woman and thinking, he's absolutely right. What was the point of you being here?

I've often been tempted to end room 101 like that i mean imagine ending a panel show like it but you see i i love that and there's so many fabulous um stories about the family and the strange life one thing that doesn't feature feature as much as I expected is that you were a child actor. I was. I don't want to talk about that. I really do. They don't get a very good press do they, child actors.

We expect them, you know, if you don't hear of one for ten years, you assume they're dead or in prison. It really is seen as like, it's one of the few minorities that you can still pile into, I think, is the child, the grown-up child actor. I'm going to start going on Twitter and saying we have rights too.

Exactly. Hashtag. Can you give us a brief summary of your career? What was the highs? So I used to, to well i went to a drama school called anna schurz which people may or may not be familiar with but it's a it's sort of it was a fashionable drama school in islington a lot of people from eastenders went there i think the kemp brothers went there um i mean i'm sort of of, you know, talking about Laurence Olivier and John Gilgood,

but, you know, they did some acting. So it was very much the idea that kids from the local sort of community were able to get acting work. And it wasn't just people like Bonnie Langford and, you know, the sort of stage school kids. So my sister and I went there and we started, I started getting parts. The first part I got was in SOS Titanic. Yeah.

And I remember it was strange because all my friends had to be... Was it a movie? Yeah, it was a movie. Okay. And all my friends had to be, at the drama school, had to be steerage. Oh, okay. And because of the way I spoke, even though we had no money, and as you know, we had Kestrel Lager,

money, but, you know, champagne taste. You were whirling around the ballroom. I was whirling around the ballroom. And I remember having that real sense of feeling other and a bit embarrassed, and I thought, I don't like this, I want to be like them. But I continued acting. I did a film called Memoirs of a Survivor,

which was by Doris Lessing, who was one of our friends. Because I had the tantrum and I said, I don't want to go to Doris Lessing's, which is the best tantrum I ever had. Yeah, it is. I mean, so far, it's the best tantrum you've had. But yeah, and then I got Dare the Triffids, which... Which, I think you quote Mark Gatiss in your book,

the co-creator of Sherlock, as describing you as, is it British sci-fi royalty? Sci-fi royalty, yeah. I was really proud of that. Because it was a great series. But it was interesting because I got, I was going to say when I got Triffids. Like I was talking about.

How brilliant. My self-important thing. No, let's call it Triffids. I'm happy to call it day. When I got Triffids, dear, which was my, I guess it was my three lions, Frank, really, of that part of my career brief as it was i did have a sense that even as a child that things would could potentially go in

another direction because i was getting attention and it was a big high profile series and i remember the daily star ringing up to do an interview and they sort of told lies about what I'd said. They said, but the Triffids are really scary. Did they leave you on set with scary Triffids? And I said, no, it was fine. But they made it up anyway. And I do remember my mother, who was an actress herself, or actor, I should say,

but I say in the book her favourite phrase was, get off the phone, my agent could be trying to call, to which my father would respond, but alas, he never does. And he didn't. And I think, I wonder, looking back, Frank, I think it must have been tough for her. I think, you know, having a child, I mean, imagine if your comedy career hadn't worked out

and then Buzz was suddenly getting phone calls from, you know, John Gloves. Val Parnell. Yeah. Can you explain that? Well, it's a light entertainment legend. But if he was getting phone calls from the Palladium saying we'd like Buzz to come in and do 20 Minutes next Saturday, would you struggle with that?

Well, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. And I don't think anyone does until they're put in that position. I mean, I see you now. This book is, I think it's really happening. People are talking to me about it all the time. And I see you and I now as a bit like James Mason

and Judy Garland in A Star Is Born. I know I'm two remakes too late on that casting, but, you know, I see, you know, my career as it shrinks and yours expands, I shall have to walk into the ocean. Maybe not at the end of this podcast, but stick around. I see us more like Bradley and Gaga. And, in fact, I did an interview recently, and I did say I was talking about how you sort of inspired me and motivated me to be my mentor and then I realized how it

sounded so schmaltzy and awful so I had to dismantle the sentiment and I said it just takes one person and I said you were my Bradley yes I mean I mean, I think we should say, just to clear this up, is I was offered a radio show by Absolute Radio, and my first thought was, I'm going to get Emily Dean to do this if she will. But let me be realistic about this. Yes, she was one of the funniest people I knew, but I always thought that she was someone who made me funny as well so there was a selfish element she got a lot of my references more than most people and so I did it partly

as a sort of a comedy comfort blanket it wasn't completely selfless it's like you know one of the reasons I always think I enjoy prayer is that he gets all of my references. I can just name drop Ephraim Zimbliss Jr. and I know it's landed. So you were, what stopped the acting? Oh, so the acting, yeah. Do you know, I think what stopped it was probably my mum, if I'm going to be really honest. And I think that, again, that's an example of something I'd tell you because I trust that I can tell you that information without it being manhandled. But honestly, Frank, I think it was tough for her

and I think sometimes we act subconsciously and I would just start going for auditions. I auditioned for the French Lieutenant's Woman and I sort of had which was a massive movie yeah and I had to go to the studio for people who don't remember it was like a sort of full-length Scottish Widows advert wasn't it but with with Meryl Streep sort of really rising into and you were offered a part in that yeah and Jeremy Irons um so my mum told me and she sat me down and I said, what happened with that?

What happened with that? Because I kept being driven to the studio. And even as a child, I remember thinking, this is a nice car. They're making a fuss of me. I must have been about 11. And I sort of knew. You kind of know when you've done a good gig,

you know, and I'd done a good audition. And then she said, I'm sorry, but they picked someone else. And my dad even made up some quite elaborate excuse, of course, giving it some literary bent, saying it was a friend of John Fowles. John Fowles was the author. And this happened with another few parts as well. And then my sister told me years later when I was in my 30s, it was one of those bits of information that someone comes out with, like in a movie, and suddenly they freeze frame it. And you're like, what? Because it changes your whole sort of narrative arc.

And she said, oh, well, it's a bit like, you know, when you had all those parts and mum turned them down. What? Yeah. If it had been a film, I would have said, what the? Well, hopefully you'd have been drinking tea at that time and gone yeah but it must have been that's a tough thing to hear I was devastated and I I did I was really upset with my mum and I kind of played it down in the book but again I feel safe enough to talk to you about this I it was a really bad argument we had and And I did say, why did you do that? And it was a difficult discussion that we had.

And she, I think it was painful for her to access that. And I think she probably, my mum was not a bad person. She was a decent person. And I think it was, sometimes it's hard to access your motives for doing something. And I think, you know, it was partly because I think she was concerned about my sister, who always, in our family, and you know my theory on this, Frank, and you won't have this problem because you've got one child. But I think when you have more than one child, it's very difficult not to brand them, not to make a decision about who they are. You know, you become Spice Girls, you become a simplistic comedy version scary and baby yeah that's what you become and my sister was sort of angelic spice um and i i guess i was bad spice in a way and i think people do that with their children and you take that through your life without

realizing so that's what was happening there was bad spice can't get these parts because she's going to be a show off and angelic spice will get upset yeah and in later life you're gonna drive over her and break her legs in the whatever happened to baby jane kind of mole so your mom if we give her the benefit of the doubt might have been trying to save you from yourself maybe oh yeah or maybe trying to save my sister from me killing her. Yeah, so I think, so she did say to me, I was worried you'd become spoiled. I'd like to point out at this point

that when we used to have guests on our radio show, we used to have a few young comics and actors who would say, oh, your mum taught me how to act. She was a really good teacher. She really understood and really listened

and helped a lot. So maybe that was her real vocation, was teaching acting. And your dad, as you say, was a remarkable guy. A big TV intellectual at a time when that was something that wasn't considered to be freaky. And that was something that wasn't considered to be freaky. It's so true. And I think because my father was, he sort of was Wikipedia. So I just assumed everyone of a certain age was like that. And I'm now discovering that's not true.

No. So I think, yeah, he was an arts reporter. He did a show called Late Night Lineup with Joan Bakewell, who's your mate, Frank. And... It was revolutionary. Did you ever see it or do you remember it? I do remember it because we, although we didn't have, we didn't live in a green room, we lived in that room where they make tea at the factory, I think.

What's your room? The scullery? My family never enforced sleepy time. So I used to stay up till 11, 12 o'clock at night. No one ever... I think there was a gap of seven years, well, there was, between me and my next brother. I think they forgot that kids go to bed earlier than adults. So I did see.

And let me tell you something about that, because your dad is a complicated figure in the book because he left the family home. And that's always difficult because the one who leaves is always the one who leaves. If they live to be 100, they're always the one who leaves. But Joan Batewell, as you say, is a friend of mine, worked with him.

And this was in the 60s. And he discovered, Joan told me, that she was getting paid considerably less than him for doing the same job. One of the few bits of continuity that the BBC have managed to keep going. But he went to the boss and said, this is really unfair that Joan,

just she does what I do and you've got to give her more money or I'm going. And I mean, that was not motivated by being cool or looking great on Twitter. That was someone who just thought that that was damned unfair and went and spoke up.

So, yeah, a complicated man, but not a man without great integrity. Yes. And actually, it's interesting, Frank. I remember you telling me that story and I was quite tearful about that because I think it was lovely to hear because it just showed a side to my father where others had viewed him through a different prism and had a different experience of him.

And, you know, you made that point about artists earlier. think you know being difficult in a domestic setting perhaps I think also people like that who make great changes listen I'm sure I'm not saying my dad was like Gandhi but Gandhi helped a lot of people I don't think his wife had a great time you know so my point is that feminists never hear about old Mar Gandhi oh I Oh, I do. I think he's had a rough time. He used to say things like, you need to clean the toilet. And I think what I'm saying is this notion of the great man,

the great mind, you know, I think those men can be complicated sometimes to live with. And I think particularly back then, so my dad was brilliant in green rooms talking about feminism. I don't know, in the home setting, sometimes that didn't translate. Taking the bins out.

Yeah, he didn't take the bins out. However, that information actually I found quite moving, if I'm honest, when you told me that, that Joan had said that to you, because I thought he'd thought about that and the fact that he did that for her was, yeah, I thought it was pretty amazing, actually. It's amazing how many people I meet who understand their parents more after they die from speaking to people who knew them and stuff like that.

Do you think that's true? Did you find that with your parents, though? or who knew them and stuff like that. Do you think that's true? Did you find that with your parents, though? My dad was just as difficult and violent. No, I love my dad, but he was an explosive character. I think it's fair to say. He was actually, he had that sort of Irish Catholic sentimentality which fits in well in the home in some respects.

But he also had a tremendous thirst. But, you know, it's hard. I know from my own experience, it's not easy being a parent. You said something to me, Frank. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I really wanted to ask you before I forget. You said, after you'd read my book,

you said something about there were aspects of my father, not that you related to. No, no, that certainly i think one of them is that thing of feeling that a literary quote of going to the great writers and great thinkers was a way of solving a very, very nuts and bolts domesticated problem. I, you know, when we were talking about doing this interview, I was reading a book and I read something and I marked it and I thought,

yeah, that's a very good, I'm going to read that quote. Not your book, but another book. How dare you. Because, I'll do it. Okay, go on. There is a tragic core to this book. There's a lot of comedy.

You know when people say I laughed and I cried, and that's the stuff I've read a lot about this book. Yeah. But I made a noise when I did both of those, so I laughed properly out loud at it. But when I cried at it, I did both of those. So I laughed properly out loud at it. But when I cried at it, I sobbed. A friend of mine, I remember telling me, was shushed on Golden Pond at the cinema.

Because, you know, you cry at a film, but he was honestly... Really? That's because you know me as well, Frank. No, I don't think it is. It may be. I don't know. I haven't read it not knowing you.

No. But I sobbed would not be an exaggeration. The death of your sister is one of the most heart-wrenching pieces of literature I've ever come across, factual or fiction, it's, can you read it without crying? Well, I had to read it for the audiobook. And it's interesting, that was the one bit. I was fine because it's, you know, it's eight hours. Good luck, everyone.

bit I was fine because it's you know it's eight hours um good luck everyone but um as I was reading it that was the one bit where I felt emotion coming up because I think it's interesting when you write something it's in your head as soon as you speak it out loud it sounds weird but it's reminding you that it happened again and it's you're literally inhabiting that space again um so that and that i went through that process writing it as well which is why it was tough because i had to put myself back in that intensive care unit and it's so vivid to me people always say to you you forget everything and you know this from losses you've experienced with your parents but you the whole period becomes a strange blur, but then that is absolutely pin sharp, that three-day period. I will never forget every aspect of it,

from things like the colour of the shirt the consultant was wearing. You know, that was all absolutely stored away on my hard drive forever. You were the editor of InStyle fashion magazine, of course. That might have helped that as well. And my sister would have appreciated that I clocked the colour of the shirt he was wearing. Exactly, it was lilac, FYI. But no, Frank, it was really difficult to write. And that was the one point I broke down in the audio recording.

However, I think it was a strange period because it was sort of drawn out over a few days but the reason I wrote it and I hope I was as honest as possible about it was because I'd never read anything where someone had honestly said what happened in an intensive care unit from their point of view I'd always read or seen Terms of Endearment which is a great film or Beaches or those kind of things or EastEnders or and I suppose I just wanted to try and convey what happens you know in an honest voice as possible because it's not I was performing some sort of you know altruistic public service but just because that's what it was truth, and that's all you can write. If you commit to being authentic at the start,

which I tried to do, you just have to write like no one's standing over your shoulder, which I think you did in your book. And I remember reading your book thinking, I cannot believe you published this. Are you a lunatic publishing this? People are going to read this. Well, I think honesty is a very addictive thing

and I think when you write about people you love you feel you owe them I mean it that is one of the things I and I do love this book I can honestly say that not because I'm trying to get people to buy or doing you a favor or you're a mate when I read it I was excited to talk to you about it because I thought oh my god you get a chance to really tell someone you love something they've done how often you know how many times have I lied about that and now I can relax into it well you're worried you wouldn't like it Frank I would have been if I were you. I would have been dreading it.

I was worried because I thought there was tremendous pressure on this book. And the pressure was that precious cargo that I'm talking about. I think if you're going to write about the death of your sister, the death of your mum, the death of your dad, like that bang, bang, bang, your world collapsing, you being orphaned in a short period of time you being left with a family and then without a family in a short period of time there's tremendous pressure because you don't want to write a rubbish book about that

you want to write a brilliant book because you that's an epitaph of sorts yes it is and you don't want to give people you love a run-of-the-mill epitaph you want to give them one that's really worthy of them and that was the pressure yes you're right i do honestly think you pulled it off and it was such a risk because there are still jokes i mean there's a bit where i laugh out loud in the book and at the vicar's joke something I haven't done that much. Although my priest, when he said good news and bad news about the roof fund, A, we've got all the money we need,

B, it's still in your bank accounts, I thought was a pretty good line. What's the priest? Oh, yeah, the priest says... The priest, your mum's, remember he's just officiated at your sister's funeral. I know it's your mum's funeral. Yes.

And he says... And he says, oh, dear, Emily, we must stop meeting like this. Yeah, now, that is a great gag. Did you like that gag? It is a gag. I mean, told on a sinking ship. I mean, it's an incredible... Well, he said it at the funeral,

and there was a strange... You were at my mum's funeral, but there was a strange... I got the hat trick, Em. I did all three. Oh, you did the try... Oh, I'm so pleased you got the box set. Yeah. But we're allowed to joke about it.

I'm your funeral friend. Are you an ambulance chaser? Yeah. My family were doing fine. I'm not the Phantom of the Opera, I just live at that church in Highgate. I got at all the funerals. Frank, my family were fine until you came into my life. Well, I'll tell you, it was, I think, I remember you doing the eulogy at your sister's funeral. Oh, that was tough, wasn't it? And you got up there. And I don't think you would have been able to do this

if you'd not lived in the green room. Do you think so? Because that performance, Jean, which was at the core of your being, it was, yeah. you still pulled it off. And it was magnificent. Harrowing. Was it?

It was like watching watching you know that guy that walked in between uh the twin towers on a tightrope it was like that feeling love sorrow or me it was spectacular it was it also and again i'm allowed to make this tasteless joke i think it's a bit like when a child is in the semi-final of britain's got talent and you think oh they're gonna get through it without crying. But I did, Matt. It was amazing. A couple of people said to me afterwards, oh that felt not like you it felt like a performance and that's

Well gone. What's the difference? How dare you. I'll tell you something about that. I think I wondered if you went home and thought is it alright that I pulled that off? I once did a gig in Edinburgh

and there were two cabs waiting outside my house, one to take my child to hospital because he had a temperature of 40 degrees and one to go and do the opening night of my Edinburgh run. And I sent my partner off with our baby and I went and did the gig but I didn't just do the gig I stormed it I absolutely rocked it there was funny audience work it was all there and I walked off stage got into a cab and went to the hospital to see my child and that night having prayed a big thank you that he was okay I did lie in bed bed and think, what kind of a person am I

that I could get on and do that rocking gig? Which is a weird thing, because we do have to continue. Well, I can remember, I loved it when you said that, you felt like my priest, not that I have one, but it was the way you said,

we have to continue. I thought, oh. Yes, but we do. But no, I was at that gig, incidentally, Frank, that you did, and you did storm it. Yes. But no, I was at that gig, incidentally, Frank, that you did, and you did storm it. Weirdly, I was at that gig, I remember. And I know that feeling because I genuinely felt

yeah, I felt some guilt. I think I feel guilt still now, if I'm completely honest. I didn't just feel guilt on that night. I feel guilt when I laugh completely honest I didn't just feel guilt on that I feel guilt when I laugh sometimes I feel if I'm with my sister's children and something funny happens or I'm with them when they discover something like Fawlty Towers on YouTube something me and my sister used to enjoy

although I think she'd be angry with John Cleese today because he's not behaving well, is he, on social media. But, yeah, I think if I come across something that is a first for them that my sister's missed out on, if that makes sense, I feel guilt. Or I laugh with them. And I feel... It sounds strange, and I feel that with my parents sometimes as well, that, you know, that survivors' guilt, and it's also... They always say about grief

that recovery is complicated, isn't it? Because it's not the easier it gets, it's more that when you're able to get through a day without crying, you don't want to forget them. You think, well, I want to keep them alive and if I'm okay, then they're receding and they're not part of my story. Yeah, but I don't, although I think you do have the performance gene, I think one thing I really respect you for is I think you've avoided it as far as grief is concerned.

I think you took it real. And I think that, I mean, you know, we've all seen those families leave in the courtroom all with their arm around each other. And that may be real grief, but it may be TV camera grief, and it worries me. And what you were saying earlier, Frank, about I think I made a decision with that book, how to handle that, was that everything was from my point of view.

So obviously when I talk about my sister, who was diagnosed at 43, and to get that news was awful, to be told you've got a few months. And it was really interesting, because when I first wrote that, I edited that scene in the book more times than any other, because I wanted to just keep it factual, and I didn't want to over-dramatise it. I just...

Yeah, but I have to stop you there because it's not just journalism Right It's better than that It is beautifully written The whole book, the prose and I'm a lover of prose It is beautifully, beautifully written and that's important

because there's so much despair in that book and if someone is describing despair in life-affirming prose, in the kind of prose that makes you think, isn't it brilliant that human beings can write like this, then you've got some light in that darkness. And I threw some jokes in with that. Yeah, and jokes. But I mean, you pitched it right.

I once went, James Elroy, the crime writer, his mother was brutally murdered in the 40s. And he reopened the case in something like the 80s or 90s. He went back, he looked at the photos from the crime scene and all. This is his mother.

And he wrote a book about it. And I went to see him talk about it. And he did a book signing it. And I went to see him talk about it, and he did a book signing. And when he signs it, he goes, To Frank, love James L. Wright, she lives! And I thought he'd slightly misjudged the attitude. I think you get it spot on. Oh, Frank.

I think the writing is economical, it's slimline, it never oozes. And that's important because there's so much emotion in that book that the prose has to be tight. It has to give you something to hold on to, I think. I've really read this book and thought about it. I love it. Can I read you a quote? Yes, oh, please do.

It's from Tobias Wolfe's book, Old School, in which Robert Frost, the poet, comes to visit the school. And he talks about writing about grief. Now, he's a poet, but there's a point where poetry and prose, if it's this good, cross over. Okay. He says, I am thinking of Achilles' grief. Now, Achilles, I'm sure you've read Homer,

but anyway, all you need to know is his friend is killed in war and he breaks his heart. And he said, the famous terrible grief. Let me tell you boys something. Such grief can only be told in form. And for form here, we can read really, really good prose. Maybe only really exists in form form is everything without it you've got nothing but a stubbed toe cry sincere maybe for what that's worth but with no depth or carry no echo you may have a grievance but you do not have

grief and grievances are for petitions, not poetry. And if you're going to write about grief, it has to have what it deserves. It needs brilliant prose or brilliant poetry to carry it through. And I think you achieved that. Oh, fine. That's the nicest thing. And then also the irony of trying to write well about grief is that it gives you a hell of a lot of grief in the process yeah because it's the toughest thing i've ever had to do we

haven't even mentioned the dog we're gonna get to the dog okay i want to say something to you though actually i'm gonna save what i have to say to you at the end you won't like it because it's soppy mention the dog please or whatever you have next. Okay. Your witness. Yes, Ray, your dog. It comes as something a bit like the emotional cavalry at the end of the book. And I didn't realise, actually, how much he meant to you. Really? There's a point in the book where I really wince,

and that's where you go, it's a sort of therapy-based thing, and you put a sticker on your chest that says unlovable, which you've written about yourself. How did you feel you didn't like that? Well, A, I don't think you are, but on a colder level, I thought it was fascinating that that's the word you'd choose. I would never choose that about me and I think I'm probably closer than you are texting on 8 12 15 mine was incorrigible who is more unlovable Frank Skinner or Emily Dean it's a tricky one don't text in no I I've always

had felt that about myself but I think the exercise you, you're right, it's a thing I did called the Hoffman Process, which I'd resisted, because, again, as I explain in the book, that was the kind of thing my father, he called it facile Californianism. Any sort of self-exploration, any sort of... My dad liked Greek philosophers, what he called the governors, that's what he used to call the Greeks. And so if it wasn't sort of wildly literary, my dad thought it was kind of worthless.

Well, my dad called tin dog food something that was invented by, I'll quote, cranks. They don't want that. Give them scraps. They want scraps. They've always lived, the cavemen, they lived on scraps. They didn't have their own food. So it's a different view. He loved dogs but in a different way. I love the expression cranks. Cranks is a great, you see cranks to us was a lovely health

food store when we went for lunch. That's true. So he was right. But because I always think of you telling me about the dog, the dog who you had a sort of a box-fizz type relationship with, the one who disrobed you when you were a child. I would have thought that would have traumatised you and put you off. Can you just tell the story? Yes, so what happened, it was very much my box fizz moment. And for younger listeners,

they are associated with having a skirt ripped off, Frank, mid-performance, aren't they, at the Eurovision? That was their shtick, essentially, wasn't it? It was the very, very early days of Velcro. And I think it's been downhill all the way since then. I like to think the moment, the skirt ripping off bit was sort of the equivalent of their knobby dancing in Three Lions, which is when the song reaches its peak.

So I was in an adventure playground with my sister and as I've said, we weren't a dog family. We didn't have Tupperware and Labradors. We had actors and the Sex Pistols filming in our bedroom. So they were sort of an alien species to me, the dog families. And I was in an adventure playground and a dog ran in and I was sort of kitted out in this hopelessly impractical, expensive clothes that my mother would put it in,

including this wraparound silk skirt. Came over to me, ripped my skirt off, and I was just stood there with my pants. And it went running into the woods with the skirt trailing behind. Incredible story. And I remember there were 30 children that must have been staring at me. Oh, brilliant. And that's what I became.

How you could become a dog lover after that? I don't know. Public humiliation. But you're right, Frank, about what they represented to me, dogs, and what they still represent, and what Raymond, my dog, now represents, which is, it's just that sense of, I don't know, constancy, which I never had. But he does love you.

Love me? Because, you know, dogs are famous, aren't they, for being these sort of dull, loyal lovers. That's what they're famous for. Exactly the sort of lovers that most women avoid, but if it's a dog, it's kind of alright.

Although you can get some bad boy dogs. Oh, can you? I think there are some dogs, I don't know, I think some dogs, the German Shepherd is a bit of a commitment foe, I find. Oh, yeah. You've got to be careful. But can I say, my dog Raymond who is a Shih Tzu, what did

your son Buzz, who is a huge fan of Raymond's, I think he's turning you over to the dog side, what did he say about our walk with Raymond? Can you remember? He said it was the best walk he'd had since 2016. He never said what that walk was in 2016. I don't remember him pointing one out. It's remarkable.

But it's good that he's keeping a log of his walks. Oh, I love that so much. That's the best review. You know what? I wanted to ask Buzz if he would give me that as a quote for my podcast and say the best walk I've had since 2016. I'm sure he'd be okay with it. But I think the dog, you're absolutely right.

And Kathy, your partner, said that to me. She said something very sweet, Kathy. me really I did that please um she was lovely because she called me and she kept saying I never read books you know she always exaggerates she says I haven't read a book for 42 years or something it's an exaggeration but she doesn't read many books certainly not she stayed up all night and read it. I've just been doing gigs, Liverpool, Manchester, etc. Thanks on tour, by the way. And there's a guy been driving me around called Kumar and he said, oh, my wife's just phoned up.

She said she's exhausted. She was up till quarter past three reading Emily Dean's book. Oh, Kumar's wife. And then my sister-in-law said to me, I was reading Emily's book. She said, it's exhausting, isn't it? I said, well, it's very emotional. She said, no, but literally, I couldn't. I thought, I'll do another chapter.

I must do it. I mean, it's really the word on the street. On the street? It's really. What would your dad say about my book, Frank? This is what I want to know. What would your dad say about my book, Frank? This is what I want to know. What would your dad say if he read my book? He'd think it was too much emotion expressed, I think, wouldn't he?

Well, his dad was 80, still working, and was hit by a motorbike. And his family never told him about it until it was too late. So he lost the chance of the deathbed just that conversation you get the chance to have and I knew that broke him up and there was something so he was a hard man my dad he wasn't a man like myself although I learned a lot you know he was very funny and he loved football and stuff and I got a lot from him. So he used to keep an old tobacco tin

with a big dent in it where the motorbike had hit my granddad. And so he was a sentimental man, yeah. I don't know what he'd make of a book like this. I mean, it's a different world. I remember you once saying to me... Oh no, I knew! I know what you're going to say, I feel sick.

Everyone's got at least one contact. I mean, your dad must have known like a journalist or something. What? It's a different world, but it's a world I find fascinating. But, friend, I wanted your world, you see, when I was growing up. I mean, except for the outside toilet bit. Yeah, obviously. But I wanted the nice family and the brothers and the sisters

and the sense of... But you know, I don't think that... You see, the gaps are too big in my family. Seven years is too big a gap to be really close. I know it's a tragedy your sister died, but I still envy you that period of tremendous closeness you had. Do you? I remember you telling me, and this broke my heart in two ways.

And it was when you said something had happened to you in your life. I don't even remember if it was funny or bad. And you picked the phone up to phone Rachel and remembered that that wasn't possible anymore. And part of me thought, oh, my God, that sense of loss is unbearable the being re-shocked but then I thought how great to have a sibling who you just pick up and phone and have that intimacy yeah with even though you don't have it anymore you had it and I've never had that even though I got two brothers and a sister really so you know people always talk

about there's that there are those sort of Instagram type quotes they're always attributed usually to Audrey Hepburn Marilyn Monroe or the Queen sometimes get to look in and people always say that the Queen said grief is the price we pay for love it doesn't seem the sort of thing like the Queen would say to me but anyway I can't imagine us saying, grief is the place... You haven't paid for anything in her life. Maybe she meant Greece. Maybe she's... Isn't he from Greece? That's what she meant. Greece is the place we go for love.

That's what she actually said. I mean, you can see how that got mangled. Well, look, Em. I mean, so can see how that got mangled. Well, look, Em. I mean, so you lost your family, you got a dog. It's beautifully told. It's incredibly moving, but always funny and always brilliantly written. I'm glad you've got a dog because I'm very keen

that people who don't have children should have a dog because why should be the only ones who are tied to the house and can't go away for the weekend spontaneously, etc, etc, etc. So I'm glad that happened. Can I ask you one last question? Yeah. And I should say that you've got a TV show, Comedians... Comedians Watching Football. Which you're on.

Which is on Sky. It's on Thursdays generally. And there's Lee Mack and Josh Whittakin and Matt Ford, our absolute radio stablemate. And there'll be another book, because if you only wrote one book, that would be a terrible waste. You've got your podcast,

where you interview people while taking a dog for a walk. Which you came on, and everyone says that's their favourite one. Why I had to borrow a dog. Yeah, called Peanut. And the first thing you said was, oh, I'm a bit worried I'm going to have a peanut allergy. And I thought, he's off. He was all right, Peanut.

We're going okay. I suppose at the end of all this, I want to end by saying, how are you? How are you now? Well, it's a very interesting question that because I am so much better now I've given birth to the book that was my child. Yeah.

Which will make me money as opposed to the other way around. I hope. But I feel relief. I feel relief that it's not terrible. I mean, it might be, but people seem to be enjoying it, which is good. Emily, you don't have to undercut everything. You've done something amazing. I urge anyone who listens to this to read it.

They will not be let down by it. Do you know, I feel, Frank, what's been, and I wanted to mention this actually, because you and I obviously do a show on Saturdays and we have a lot of men listening to our show and books, particularly about the subjects that I cover, are normally bought by women, traditionally, and I've had so many messages from people reaching out to me

and, you know, the ones that have moved me the most? I got a bloke who said, I'm an ex-paratrooper. I'm a trucker from the Northeast. It's those. It's men in their 50s saying, my sister died. My parents died. I never talked to anyone about this. And I didn't think I could talk about it.

And it was okay to cry. And I've read your book. And because I listened to you on Frank's show, I would never have picked this up otherwise because I love Frank. And I thought, oh, well, may as well read this. And it's allowed them to think about their loss. And it sounds a bit schmaltzy, but that to me is amazing because I sort of think women are at the point where they'll read this anyway.

But I worry about men not being able to talk about this stuff. It really does worry me. And I think so through you frank you know fixing all these men what i got was a lot of women writing to me saying i always felt bad about one night stands but now no but when you asked me how i was sorry how are you so how i am that's i'm asking you in the big way i know not morning how are you I'm asking you in the big way. Yes, I know. Not morning, how are you? I'm asking you... Well, I'm... Because the person who wrote this book could still be broken.

Yes. I don't know. Do you know what? There was a great thing that Sheryl Sandberg said when she experienced grief, and she said sometimes a great thing to ask someone when they've gone through challenging times and grief is not how are you, but how are you today?

Because how are you can feel overwhelming. How am I today? I can cope with that. How am I today? I'm really good. But I think it's always there, Frank. You know, I say, I make the analogy that it's like glitter grief.

So it's like when someone sends you one of those cards and it just gets everywhere. So you clear it up off the kitchen table. It's a little bit on the carpet over there. One Thursday, you'll see it. Or it'll just suddenly fall out and you'll think, OK, I don't, that's never, I'm never going, ever going to get rid of all of those particles completely.

And they strike when I least expect it. I had a lunch with my editor and my agent yesterday and I felt tearful. And I think it's partly because the book seems to be going down well and I'm like, oh, why isn't my sister here to see this? She'd be so proud. She would be so happy. Yeah. Now that's made me cry.

My only someone who grew up in your family could be quite grief and glitter. Oh, I love that. But no, I'm happy and, you know, like I feel, when you asked me that question, I immediately thought of my sister. I felt tearful, but in a really lovely way, because I thought, my God, maybe she'd be really proud of me. Well, when I wrote the story of my life,

making it about me, obviously, I felt like I'd sort of spring-cleaned my consciousness. I mean, it is a cathartic, I've said everyone, everyone should write their life story if it's in some, you know, an A4 pad

they know will never be published. Especially. But, did it help? Do you know, it didn't, and you all understand this because I know you've had the odd bit of therapy, haven't you? But at the time, my therapist said to me... Well, really, it was Kath, but I went along.

It was Kath, wasn't it? Well, it was couple therapy. Did you say to your mate... I think me and the therapist both knew it wasn't it? Well, it was couple therapy. Did you say to your mate... I think me and the therapist both knew it wasn't really me. I was the control in the experiment. Oh, God. Sorry, carry on. No, so I was... That's brilliant.

You... I thought when I had therapy that... I said to my therapist, sorry, when I was discussing this, I said to my therapist sorry, when I was discussing this I said it's been tough writing it and you know, because I think you and Kath probably noticed that I isolated myself when I wrote this book, I went a little bit J.D. Salinger And you wouldn't talk about it much either I wouldn't talk to anyone, I couldn't

and I, because you know what I went into a room and I was with ghosts every day for a year and I know this sounds every day for a year. And I know this sounds strange, but to write truthfully about it, that's what it felt like. And I almost had to just stay in my room like Rochester's wife and just get on with it, Google it. And so, yeah, I sort of felt my friends were worried.

And I could sense my friends thinking I was maybe not a good friend over that period when I was writing the book. I detached myself, I wasn't very open, and I thought they'll be there when I come out, and they have been. But my therapist said, I think this has been very cathartic probably because you obviously still had stuff to process. And I went, don't be so ridiculous, you're an idiot. And then I had to ring her and say, yeah, you were right, sorry.

Because I've learned things you get angry at are true. Well, like Rochester and say yeah you're right sorry because I've learned things you get angry at are true well like Rochester's wife you're on fire um help I'm on I'm actually on fire Frank can I say something to you which I don't I know you'll think is schmaltzy but please I'm gonna do one of the most straight down the middle basic clogs you've ever heard in your life so let's do the plug and then I'd like to say something to you. No, you go first. I think nothing can follow the plug and feel respectable.

Oh, God. I just want to say, I've said this a lot in other interviews, but I've never said it to you directly because I worry about it being too emotional and that I feel sometimes I have to dismantle things with humor with you but I did want to say I would honestly not have written this book without you I don't think and that's partly because and that's not just I'm a guest on Desert Corner flattering the host it's

true and it's because you gave me the confidence I I never did. I never sort of took control of my own life. I never had any confidence in my ability. And I did feel unlovable. And I wasn't very good at anything. And you were the first person that sort of had faith in me. And it really changed my life. And that's why I ended up writing a book. And you were my mentor.

You weren't the mentor I was expecting but you were and I'm really grateful to you and you've made me be honest it's really hard to live to live this way though Frank but it's because yeah so the book is it's dedicated to my sister but it's also you're in brackets somewhere You can buy Emily's book. Everybody died, so I got a dog. On Amazon or in all good bookshops. Emily, thank you so much. Congratulations.

You've done something very, very special. Love you. Mean it.