The Glass Cannon Podcast - Cannon Fodder 2/22/23

Episode Date: February 22, 2023

The Fod Juice overfloweth in this monster episode. Troy and Joe bring the HEAT and pull back the curtain as they discuss the challenges of running PF2E as a show, the problems with literal conversions from Pathfinder 1E, and changes they need to make to get back to their roots. In We Are Stupid, Troy informs Joe that Atticus (aka...Joe) has been cheating for months and there's a spell he's never allowed to cast again. The gloves come off in this week's hour-long Fod! For more podcasts and livestreams, visit glasscannonnetwork.com and for exclusive content and benefits, subscribe today at patreon.com/glasscannon. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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It is Wednesday, February 22nd, 2023, and I'm your old pal Joe O'Brien. And I'm Troy Howling Mad LaValle Howling Mad You're angry today? No, do you know what that's from? I figured you wouldn't know the reference It's the A-Team The Howling Mad Murdoch H.M. Murdoch

I fucking love the A-Team Mr. T was big in the 80s He was doing crossover to wrestling There was a Mr. T cartoon It was in Rocky. And then, so I was way into the A-Team, and my favorite character was Matt Murdock.

Yeah, I... I loved the A-Team so much. I mean, I think that it is a good... I think it's a good example of why I continue to love these traditional D&D style, d20 party based games

yeah because like i love that you have like literally a face yeah and you know you have the demolitions guy and the driver and the pilot whatever muscle yeah everybody's like good at what they do and the team comes together to execute these missions. I just, I loved that. Arguably the, the best TV show that like takes the trope of a party makeup and does it to perfection. The four, the four person party. Yeah.

The four person party to perfection. You add a fifth in there. It'd just be a fifth wheel. Or if you're like us, you add two more people and still don't have a cleric or a second damage dealer. I mean, just ridiculous. We're going to get into it today. Episode 63 was a doozy, a two-hour-ish combat of epic proportions.

We're going to have some We Are Stupid. We're going to debate some abilities that were used. We'll also just talk around the episode in general. But first, a few news bits. Nothing too crazy. Studio update-wise, we've been keeping you abreast of this week in and week out. Things are moving in a positive direction. We have not signed on the dotted line, but that's only because the laws of New York State require 17 notaries to sign any document.

And no two documents can be marked by the same notary. So you have to travel to eight states to sign a commercial lease in New York. We're going through the process, but we should have it done by this week. And March 1st, man, we should be moving in. Oh, man, that's exciting. It is. It is very exciting to know that that space is sitting there. We should be moving in. Oh, man. That's exciting. It is. It is very exciting to know that that space is sitting there. It's waiting for us.

And hopefully we can get cooking on that soon. Just really looking forward to move forward on that. Hey, I didn't even tell you this, but right after we record this, the minute I hang up from this call, I am going with our cinematographer to piece through all of the lighting from our old studio so we're going to go walk into our storage unit and walk through each piece of lighting and see what we're going to be using in the new space so yeah it is things are moving forward that's exciting yeah um because we want to try and reuse as much equipment that we had from before um to keep keep stay on budget yeah exactly to stay on but i mean that stuff was barely used we set all that stuff up for a and a and it was like six weeks and then covet hit

it was wild why we had lighting designers set designers set builders there like the whole shebang and then when i came back after corporate i was like tear this fucking garbage set down. I never want to see it again. It's completely covered in dust and sadness. It was awful. But we're happy to move on and excited to start that new project. So that's moving in a positive direction. Glass Cannon Labs has been fun. We got another one tomorrow, Blade Runner, playing some Blade Runner tomorrow. That's right, yeah.

The mystery continues. We talked a little bit about it last week, so I don't need to go into any more detail, but Skid's going to be running you and I and McD and Jason Charles Miller through Blade Runner. And then you wanted to talk about, get them some updates

on the seasonal shows. Haunted City, Voyager's Dump Time for Chaos. What's going on with those? Yeah, so we're working on pre-production for season twos of on the seasonal shows, Haunted City, Voyage of the Jump, Time for Chaos. What's going on with those? Yeah, so we're working on pre-production for season twos of Haunted City, Voyage of the Jump, and Time for Chaos. Those were our big three new properties we launched last year. And we said, you know, I mentioned the state of the nation,

that in order to bring these shows back for a second season, we needed to get sponsorship because we fronted all the costs for those because we wanted to build new properties and bring in new audiences. But in order to continue doing it, we need sponsorship support. So we've started with the publishers and we have some handshake agreements in place for partial budgets, for some of those full budgets, which is exciting. We're actually starting to move towards the contract phase for one of those series. So, yeah, I'm hoping in the next couple of weeks we'll have some announcements on the return of these shows because some of them I want to get back sooner than later. And just on a personal note, I cannot wait to play Time for Chaos, to play Massive Nihilothotep. Not that I have, like, any desire to do the work that goes along with it,

because I don't, but I like the finished product. And it's so exciting to me because every day I read YouTube comments. Every day I just read everything that's out there when I'm bored. And I just see so many people discovering Time for Chaos and loving it like we loved it and going through all 20 episodes and seeing what we did with the ending. And so I'm really excited to get back into it. Just trepidatious about the amount of work. So hopefully we'll have some exciting news very, very soon.

But there are contracts going out this week for one of those series. Yeah. Those series should be coming. We have to actually talk about this. This is something that we have to get into because now it's going to start to get into like we're going to be so like spread so thin doing these shows that like it these people are coming in like we want to sponsor your show it's like okay great but we have to stagger all this stuff so that it's done in a way that doesn't kill the casts you know so because we also have get in the trunk season five uh coming out later this year and the return of the glass cannon live tour so our dance card is just going to get uh more and more full and we want to make sure that we don't burn out like we've done in the past, but while also maintaining the machine, because I think what we do, uh, that no one else does is we are a content machine. So I want, uh, to have that machine keep rolling, um, ensure that the quality is still, uh, the best in the

industry, um, both in the content and in the production, uh, end of things. Um, but not get it to the point where we're just like dragging constantly. Yeah. All right. Let's kick it over to the episode this week, Class Canon 63. I just feel like we could talk about this for two hours. There is so much that went on in this episode. Professor Eric even did just like an introductory paragraph. And a lot of it was explaining how we didn't really make too many mistakes. But to quote him, this was a complicated multi-party combat, creatures with reactions, death and dying, persistent wall spells, battle forms, familiars, double checking, disrupting actions on crits, illusions, et cetera. More complicated than any fight I've reviewed so far,

illusions, et cetera, more complicated than any fight I've reviewed so far, but also much fewer notes. So, you know, it shows that we're making some progress here, but of course you can always get better. So before we dig into any of the we are stupid aspects of it, let's just talk about the encounter in general. It got out of hand really fast. And it started at the end of 62 when Ethel ran from an encounter to trigger the next planned encounter and make them into one big giganto encounter. I think before we even start with the encounter, how did you like that Suki scene?

Suki scene. Great. Great. This was just – I think people will be interested in a little behind the scenes of this. Like it would be very easy like we did on tour all the time to just be like, now Zuki's there. But as I was thinking, I was like, I think this is an opportunity to kind of get back to our roots a little bit and do some – reveal a little bit more backstory. Sometimes we're so rushed, especially on tour. We don't want to take too much time away from the action to do this.

But I think people miss it. And I want to get back into practice for when we launch Gatewalkers to get more into the backstories of these people. I'm like, I think there's a cool opportunity here to do something rather than just have her appear and explain it away. Like, ah, the ritual is weird. So I just emailed Sydney that day, a couple hours before recording. I'm like, hey, you have any like secrets from your past or something that we haven't revealed yet? And she sent me a couple. I was like, all all right that first one uh i'll just throw something at you today and let's just play um so there's no script or anything we just uh we started dancing together and i just listened back to it after i dropped off uh archer i was listening

to just that scene i was like man this is just this is how it used to be no scripts old school gcp man Just fucking playing. And spoiler alert, for next week's episode, that happens again. It was just like, but with no, nobody knew that it was coming between me and the other player, who shall remain unnamed until next week's Cannon Fodder. But I just thought that was a really cool moment. I was listening to it and I was like, okay. Because sometimes these long combat episodes that take two or three episodes to do, which is making me angry, honestly, it can be a fucking slog sometimes. So it's so important that we keep that banter popping like it was this time. And then we take these moments to infuse character story as well. I think it just makes for a much richer episode at the end of the day. Would you recommend people do that in their home games?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, what I'm what I'm asking specifically is if you have a combat that's going to last two hours or three hours, and maybe it carries over from one game session into another, a lot of combatants real slog. would you recommend like breaks in the action to like go into somebody's head and do backstory stuff just to change the flow? Yeah. Sometimes the game sets you up for it perfectly, like usually with a spell or an ability. Little things like what did you do? What did you cast on the captain in the boat dream. Phantasmal

killer. Phantasmal killer. You know, on the spot, I was just like, oh, this is an opportunity to reveal that these guys are slavers. It's like, oh, seeing them revolting up against them. So that was a cool moment. Anytime you can take those moments, like if somebody casts,

you know, I know you guys, I cast suggestion and everybody just fucking jokes around and doesn't do what you're supposed to do with the spell but like there's opportunity with those mind-bending spells like that to take a break from the fight and really play into it like oh i want to do and you know it just it stops that monotony of combat um by infusing character moments in truth we should be doing this all the time with every moment. Well, you know, not with every moment, but with every opportunity. When your turn comes up, don't just roll attack, roll attack, move. You know, use that opportunity to tell a story. And

if there's a chance for you to embellish it in a way that heightens things beyond just dice rolling, you should always try to do that. But it's easier said than done because you could also take that too far in that direction and then you have combats that are already taking too long, taking way too long. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I think some people might get a little tired of watching or sitting around the table with somebody who does an entire narrative every time as they're turning combat. You have to pick your moments and you got to be efficient with the description. But also just being like, yep, I swing, miss, I swing, I miss, and then I'll raise my shield.

It's a balancing act. It's so boring too. It's fast but boring. So, yeah, a middle ground there is clutch. I always think about those shows that we did with Bullman when Bowman was like running the thunder company. Um, that's where I really started to see how, how this should, I say should be done, but like, uh, the glass cannon way is like, let the GM be the host. And when it comes to your part, that's your moment to shine and then shut up. Unless you have something to say that is really going to be a zinger to lift things up.

It's like wait to your moment. Use that moment to shine. And then between that and the next moment, be engaged, listen, and prepare for your next moment. That's what I think we do really, really well. But you have to think about the musicality of it. You have to think about that there's a rigidity to this process that we don't so when it naturally happens without us talking about it, I'm always pleased. Does that make sense or am I just like rambling? Well, everybody's game has a different style, a different tone. You can't just like walk into somebody else's game and expect it to feel like your game with your friends that you play with.

It feels different each time and we definitely have a feel to our games that that transcends system you know what i mean it's like each game has a similar sort of tone and that's what makes it glass kind of network to me so um and we talk a lot about that actually behind the scenes like especially when we started working with jared and other new people we talked a lot about for the first time ever we were actually distilling our process of playing the game not our process of like distilling our process of playing the game not our process of like production not our process of technical direction like our process of what we do when we play what what makes our games uh our games you know there's a method there's a method to our madness that is we don't talk about um not because we don't want anybody to steal it i mean

you could listen to our shows and a lot of people do and copy the way we do things. But like there, there is a very deliberate method that isn't always talked about. But I think it's the reason our shows stand out. Yeah, I agree. So yeah,

that was, that was great. Great scene. The, the, when Ethel started the second combat, what was going through your head? I mean, I, I was going through your head as a GM?

I was like, okay, well, this is going to be a real pain in the ass for me because now I'm controlling 10 characters. But I put that aside and then I think, okay, how can we make this be a good and interesting fight? And at that point, you know, I don't really have a plan. All I can do is just try to react to what you guys do. And Suki's Ring of Fire was the perfect improv setup. Put that there. It's like, okay, well, now I can make this interesting in another way. Let's get these blomps out of the comment. It's not that important. What isn't important to me is like, oh, I'm gonna mash these PCs now. It's a 10 on 5 fight. There are times when that's what I want to do. It's like just lay the hammer down. That's not what this was. What I wanted to do

was instill fear, instill stakes. You've got to get that foot. I even said at the beginning of the episode, I'm like, you can all die as long as one of you comes back with a foot. It doesn't matter. You, Joe, are the one that chose to say, can we camp out here with the Stardust Augers? And that changed everything because I wanted you to get back on the boat because then the stakes of you dying is so much worse because you're going to carry that madness over. But you said camp there. I said, all right, well, that was good. That was a good idea.

And you win for that. And your win is like, it doesn't matter if you die. So that right there changes the combat. The combat isn't about beating every enemy or any XP. It's about getting that foot and getting the fuck out. And watching you guys do that was fun for me. I wonder if this has anything to do with the change over to the – it's funny. The change to the new system of 2E, converting this adventure that we were in the middle of to 2E, happens to coincide with this series of Dreamlands fetch quests in a way that I think makes something a legitimate question for me. And I don't even know if you have an answer.

Yeah. But is it the system or is it the design of the encounters in this AP, in this time in the AP, that it feels like each of these fetch quests are designed to be like you are not meant to all live or to defeat all the enemies. It is designed so that the whole strategy is behind simply accomplishing the objective with a focus on the minor success, the base success condition, satisfying that, and nothing else really matters. Because I have not felt like we've trounced really any of these, at least in my memory. But I don't know if that's 2E or if that's the way these Dreamlands encounters are designed. What are your thoughts on it behind the screen? They were written to be like – I think you're supposed to be like – what are you, level 8 now? Yeah.

And you've been level 8 for more than half of the Dream encounters. And going back to the first edition version of it as level eight characters or as level seven characters you were fighting cr9 encounters for the most part now obviously when uh uh i'm just looking here so the etter caps and the spiders you were you were level seven and that was a cr9 fight uh the uh tree tiger smilodon with the four tree tigers in Indianapolis. That was CR 10 and you were still seventh level. And then the Necropolis. That was a CR 9.

That one stood out to me as really brutal. That creature. It was a Gug, wasn't it? It was a Gug. Yeah. That one stood out to me as unwinnable. Like in terms of the fight, like the stand up fight with the Gug. I was like, I don't think we can beat a Gug, yeah. That one stood out to me as unwinnable, like in terms of the fight, like the stand-up fight with the Gug.

I was like, I don't think we can beat a Gug. And maybe we just got out of position poorly or something. Yeah, actually, the Gug is CR 10. You guys didn't do, there was an encounter after that. And also, there's a trap that you unlocked during the Gug fight, which was a CR 7 trap. So that changes that encounter to like a CR 11 or CR, maybe even CR-12.

Yeah, so these are written to be very high. And then obviously you have the whatchamacallit, the Bokrog fight. The great old one. And Bokrog itself is CR-27. Well, that one was pretty obvious. But yeah, but that's the one that we failed. And that one, I truly don't know how of the problems, I think, and this isn't to disparage Ron's translation of it, but Ron's conversion was a very literal conversion.

And I think that I'm seeing now, as we get deeper into 2E, the problems with a literal conversion. Like there needn't be six WOMPs just because there were six WOMPs in the 1E version. It should have been like three Super WOMPs, I think is better. But this might also just be the difference between if we were playing a home game and doing it for a show.

I'm just having this ongoing struggle with 2E encounters. I used to love the three action economy. Uh, and I still do from like a, a, a, a player perspective. I think three action economy is great. The problem is it really slows things down for a podcast. Um, and, uh, so I, it's something I'm trying to solve before we get to gatewalkers. So then when you add in six creature fights, eight creature fights against a five-person party and everyone has three actions, it's a problem that if you're going to convert something from 1E to 2E, a module, you really have to convert the whole experience beginning to end as a whole. You know, you can't just pull encounters and just put in the stat blocks of that monster from 2E and just assume

everything's going to work out. It's kind of like the whole overall – it's a bunch of pieces of a puzzle and they don't fit together unless you look at it as a whole and you might have to change on a macro level instead of just with the creature stats or HP or something like that. Like I think that 2E has a very different convention of how many monsters you fight in an encounter. It has a different convention of difficulty level for CR or whatever you would call it. I don't know if they have – do they have CR in 2E? No, it's just level, right? It's just everything says –

Moderate three or moderate nine. Right, right. So yeah, I don't know. I think it's an interesting distinction between the literal conversion and the conversion that takes into account how much the system as a whole is different in 2E. written for 2E. And as I'm reading it, I'm like, I think it's going to be better. But like, this third action, you know, I understand, don't use it for a third attack. That's fine. But the options that remain to you are lame and shitty, I think, for a podcast. Oh, you do a knowledge check. Great. After the first round, you do a knowledge check. There's no reason to do another knowledge check. It's just, yeah, sure, you could do one more if there's more information

out there. But I'm pretty much giving you everything you need to know if you nailed the first check. So you can aid fun. This is fun for tactical combat, but like making that fun for a podcast is something different entirely. And then, you know, taking a step, it's fine. Maybe we just have to be quicker. You know what I mean? You have a lot of time between your turns. time between your turns. The players really need to be thinking about like, what am I going to do? And what are my options for what I'm going to do? And then just pip-pop-poop, let's get through it while also trying to keep things exciting, while also trying to tell a great story. There's a lot of things going on, but I'll be honest, I've been a little soured on the three-action economy for a podcast. And so that's something I'm just grappling with. for a podcast. And so that's something I'm just grappling with. Yeah, I don't really grapple with it. I think it's pretty, I mean, you have to, you have to get out of the mindset that for the show to be good, every single action that you take is amazing. And because when you do that, you get yourself into an analysis paralysis situation

where you think so hard about how to make it better than just a third attack that you think yourself into a dull podcast. Like you need to just, if you don't already have an idea, just move again, you know, reposition yourself or, uh, or just aid every single time. You know what I mean? Just, just, just aid somebody if you don't want to attack or, you know, you can just attack. It's fine. But then, you know, if you make it like, uh, just do single time just just aid somebody if you don't want to attack or you know you can just attack it's fine but then you know if you make it like just do this i just need natural 20 if you make it sound like it sucks to do the third attack then don't do it you know

like uh i just don't have a problem with it in this game because as a caster it it doesn't affect you you know most of your spells are two actions. You have a move and two actions. It feels just like 1E. You know what I mean? Like there's no difference in the feel. You know, I'm just, I'm thinking this through as I'm listening to you. It might even be better to make a hard and fast rule for the show. You can't use your third action to attack. Unless you have some sort of buff on you that gives you, that is increasing your odds to hit, you can't do it. And likewise for me, I can't do it as well. And here's your list of things you can do, because there's only a certain few things you can do. You can do a knowledge check, you can take a step, you can move, which may incur, or you can aid. And that's it. So that when you get to that third action- Well, that's not true. There's a bunch of stuff

that you can do. There is, sure. But let's not pretend that it's a really exciting list, because it's not. It's fun for tactical war games. I don't think – it's hard to make it fun for a podcast. So I think the way to do it is like look at that list, choose something, and let's move on to the next person because it's making these combats take forever. This is what happens. It comes to third action. People are like, oh, what do I want to do here? Let me mull over the ten lame options that I have. You know, I'm just going to attack again.

Miss. Okay. And that to attack again. Miss. Okay. And that took three minutes. Right. Totally. I don't know. I just, I don't want to come down on 2E because I think it is a beautiful game.

And it's something that I'm grappling with because we're about to launch a show playing 2E. And I'm very, very excited the more we learn the system to do it. This is just, I like to be transparent about the process and not just sing the praises of a system that I think we're going to have to massage to make work for the greatest podcast ever. For the greatest podcast on the planet. Yeah, no, I hear you. I think it's,

I think it's less of needing to draw lines in the sand and make homebrew rules of what you can and can't do and more like – it's just more coaching. It's more behind the scenes being like if you don't already have a great idea at the start of the turn, then just aid. You know what I mean? Like just default to that and just keep it moving. Don't think about it during that turn. After you've already taken two actions actions then begin thinking about what your third action is going to be you know what i mean just just keep it moving um it's easier said than done for sure um but yeah yeah like if you're a baseball player and you step up to the plate

you are looking at that first pitch looking at the way it's coming out of the pitcher's hand and trying to decide in a split second is that a fast fastball? Is it a curve ball? Is it a slider? And then what you can't do is be like, all right, so I need to now step and I need to twist my hips and swing. No, because you have so much practice. You just know how to do that swing. Likewise, like we just have to get this in our body so that you're not thinking about, okay, I've used this action and now I'm going to aid. You know, you just, we just have to get it in. When you get to that third action, do you want to move? Do you want to step? Do you want to aid? Do you want to do a knowledge? Here's your list of things you can do. It might be as simple as just like giving everybody a crib sheet. But the other problem, and I mentioned this at the beginning of the show

as a joke, is like not having a cleric and not having another significant damage dealer is just making it really, really hard. Because I don't think you're having this problem in Blood of the Wild. No, there's no problem in Blood of the Wild. Blood of the Wild is fantastic. It could be lower level, but it's the same amount of actions. And I think it's just because it's built a little bit better maybe the party what's the party comp well party comp and it's also a two-e adventure right so maybe that has something to do with it um party comp two-e adventure there is there is major damage dealing

um lots of movement and you know things get cooking so yeah i don't know but what's the actual party comp what are the four classes? Barbarian, Ranger, Melee Ranger. Barbarian, Melee Ranger, Two-Handed Melee Ranger. Druid with Animal Companion. So that's another Melee Fighter. And Witch. Witch.

Is it a healing focused? No, no, sorry. Oracle. Oracle. Is it a healing focused Oracle? Yeah. All right. So you've No, no. Sorry. Oracle. Oracle. Is it a healing focused Oracle? Yeah. All right. So you've got, you've got the coverage. Yeah.

Get two damage dealers, a healer, and then your utility spellcaster. Right. And the ranger double, you know, doubles as, as, you know, thievery, stealth, you know, that kind of thing. One thing we're missing is like, is arcana. You know what I mean? We don't have a lot of knowledge of like magics and stuff of arcane magics, which that can slow things down sometimes, but usually, but that slows down narrative and how the GM has

to like get information to you. It doesn't slow down combat, which is good. You know, like slowing down combat is the worst. The Oracle and the Druid need to have a conversation and be like, all right, if I'm going to be the Oracle, then you've got to be a sorcerer or a wizard. And the other person was like, well, I really want Oracle and the Druid need to have a conversation and be like, alright, if I'm going to be the Oracle, then you've got to be a sorcerer or a wizard. And the other person's like, well, I really want to be a Druid. Alright, well, then I can't be an Oracle. I need to be a

cleric. But even still, you're missing out. If someone's going to be the healer, the Druid is your wild card. I don't know. Well, the Oracle has a lot of options. Healing is just one of them. And there are some other options in there. And then the Druid is kind of more built toward, you know, melee fighting, basically yeah with a little bit of spell casting um which is what you get with that animal companion if you you know if you don't have you know pepsi the snake is just

not as powerful as baba the bear you know what i'm saying yeah you need a druid in that adventure i hate druids but like i you need one in blood of the wild yeah it just fits too perfectly it fits perfectly also blood of the wild offers a ton of opportunities for speaking to animals you know what i mean which is like it fits in really well that would be useless in strange aeons there's a useless with me as a gm uh that's also true that's also true uh man we we took 25 minutes on things that are not on my list to talk about. But you know, I think this is all interesting, exciting, uh, to the people that listen week in and week out. I mean, that's why I like having the original FOD back because it allows you and I to

really dig into the process of the show. It's more than just the nuts and bolts of mechanics. This is why I like talking about, you know, writing new systems and working on the world. You know, I see people write in the comments like, oh, they shouldn't be announcing all these things, cancel them. What I like about what we do is that we've been very transparent about our growth from the beginning. And that's something that I think is lacking in society. Like I remember being an actor back in the day and being like, growth from the beginning. And that's something that I think is lacking in society. Like,

I remember being an actor back in the day and being like, how are people breaking in? And like, you could read a biography of Al Pacino. But when Al Pacino broke in, there was no internet. You know what I mean? How did Tobey Maguire break in? How did Paul Rudd? Well, Paul Rudd has been around forever. But like, how did these younger guys break in? You know, a lot of them just had rich parents, but like that always interests me when you had that outlier actor that came in and broke into the scene and then started being in everything. Like what was his journey? I wish that there existed a way to understand that. So the reason that I like to be very open about things that we're doing and things that

don't come to fruition is because I think it's important for, to inspire others to know like what the process is like, that, that it has a lot of wins and it has a lot of losses along the way. But at the end of the day, we're building something, a lot of broken promises, a lot of broken promises.

Is that the term you're looking for? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm exaggerating. You're exaggerating. Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's – I'm exaggerating. You're exaggerating. Sure. But like, yeah, I think it's important to show –

What you have to understand is the distinction – people don't make – a lot of people don't make a distinction between what you are thinking about and a promise. You know what I mean? Right, right. It's an important distinction. Troy said. That isn't always clarified. distinction that isn't always clarified. Also, you know, you can get ridiculed in media for changing your mind, you know, about anything, which is why people usually don't talk about things until everything is completely, completely done and finished. That's a good strategy too.

It's just not what we do here. And I just think, but I also think there's such a strength and a power in being able to pivot on the fly. I think it's one of the pillars of our success, looking at what we did just when COVID hit, how we were able to pivot and then grow, have our best year of growth during a time when most businesses were failing. You have to be able to be flexible and malleable in the moment. And even if that means breaking promises, because you can see things that the consumer can't. Let's get into illusions. Let's talk about illusions. Illusions played a huge role in this combat. And you brought something to my attention right before we went live. You were like, did you use illusory object to cast that spell?

And I said, yes. And you said, you don't like it. And I said, why? I know this made you mad. We almost didn't even do camera photo. I could tell you were starting to get heated. So I saw a YouTube comment that said, I want to shout the person out so I'll find it. But basically it said, Joe want to shout the person out so I'll find it, but basically it said,

Joe is using illusory object. You can't use illusory object to create a creature. That's what illusory creature is for. And I'm paraphrasing what said commenter said, but I was like, oh, interesting. I never looked at the spell. When Joe cast it, I just assumed Joe read the spell and did it the right way. And to your credit, you just interpreted it differently than me. And most of the people who play this game and everyone else, apparently in reading the, the text of illusory object, it says you create a visual illusory visual image of a stationary object.

The entire image must fit within the spells area. The object appears to animate naturally. And that's where I think things get a little confusing. Well, why would an object animate if it also isn't a creature? But it doesn't generate, doesn't make sounds or generate smells. For example, water would appear to pour down an illusory waterfall, but it would be silent. And then when you heighten it to second, you can have the smells and the sounds and whatnot. And so to me, it's pretty cut and dry. It's an object. It can be a moving object. But to say a moving object could be a creature goes against the spirit of the spell when there is another spell called illusory creature. And what I didn't realize is that you've been using this right along as creatures when it looks like by the book.

You're not supposed to do that, Joe O'Brien. I guess not. I guess not. This is a holdover from minor image, major image. Like that's what it used to be. It used to be an image. And Atticus was casting this all the time all the time and to me when I read it the distinction between illusory object and illusory creature was that the illusory creature spell is higher level because it is actually an actual

creature that like is on the battlefield and attacks and does damage and all that kind of stuff it isn't merely an illusory object which i took to be anything that is an unmoving non-hostile can't do damage thing just like a uh a creature quote unquote a person without a soul, without life, is an object. It's just a thing. Like Harris's poppet. It's just a thing. You know what I mean? So, like, I just don't know where you draw the line.

So, could I make one of those constructs that we fought against? Right. Is that a thing? Is that an object? Yeah. Is it a statue? I think what it's supposed to be is it's – illusory object is meant to distract the enemy. 100%.

Not meant to have it then attack it. That's what distraction is. Sure. It draws its attention. Sure. But I think the best you can do is create a giant, oversized, plush version of a Womp. A plush doll of a Womp. You can't create a Womp that looks like an actual Womp.

But why not in the story, right? Like in the narrative of in the world, why on earth, if you could make something look like anything, why can't you make it look like a creature? You can't with illusory creature no illusory creature is an actual creature that like it'll attack you it it does it has actions it moves it attacks like that's why it's a higher level spell it deals mental damage it does all this other shit you know what i mean i just i just don't i think you have to hem yourself into that i think there will be plenty of people that would agree with you. I think more people, though, tend to agree that the object is the object and the creature is the creature.

I don't agree with you. I agree with you that most people do think that, and most people are stupid. And I think we can agree with that for sure. I would agree with that, but it has nothing to do with this spell. This is the problem with illusion spells. Otherwise, why not just be a conjurer why not just be a destruction mage because if you're going to do illusions there has to be a handshake agreement with the gm like hey can we can we do this if you're not going to play along then i'm

just going to do another school of magic because it's not right um but i think that the spirit of the spell is like build a wall build a uh like something that looks like a vat of acid is about to pour on him. But if you want a creature, you should use illusory creature. There's a fifth level spell called illusory scene. I didn't even read the text, but I'm like they've changed it in 2E that there is a sort of process. It starts with an object, then a creature, then a scene and and the difference obviously with creature is yes that can attack but i think there's another fundamental difference just in the way that it was worded i think that they're they're very particular about their words and um specific over general makes me feel like the

object is supposed to be an object and it's going to ruin your fun of the game or it may force you to be more creative i mean it's just i believe me i of the game or it may force you to be more creative. I mean, it's just – believe me. I think about it every single combat. Every combat. All I'm thinking is where can I put a wall? How can I put an object in here that will draw attention? And so far in this AP or in this book at least, there's zero. There's none because everything that we fight is so bizarre and weird.

You know what I mean? none because everything that we fight is so bizarre and weird you know what i mean like nothing there's nothing that i can come up with that is just like clearly going you know how many times i think about putting a giant pit like between us and the combatants but we have no range damage that's an object though that you could make a pit i know i know and i'm saying it just never like i think about it constantly and it never will work in the situations that we're in. We don't have range damage dealing besides besides skid. And we just so frequently like have these creatures. I'll just I'll just jump over it. You know what I mean? I mean, it's only 20 foot burst. So, you know, it's anyway, there's a lot to there's a lot to dig into with it but i i feel like uh i was set in my ways from one e this is a huge change from one a massive change and i think that it's anybody could just obviously say like who's this object who's this creature like if they wanted it to be so distinct i just don't understand why you can't you don't just write in the spell.

The object cannot appear to be a creature like because that would be overpowering this spell to in their opinion. If that's what the design is meant to be, then why doesn't it just say it to me? It doesn't say it because it's like as long as it doesn't move and as long as it can do no damage to anything around it it doesn't matter what object you make what you make it look like you know so that's sort of where i where i ended up yeah i think it also wants you to use this spell like to go invisible stealth into a room and create an illusion before the combat even begins you know that's another way you could uh use it trying to use these spells in combat i mean i'm always giving you guys the benefit of the doubt to get like at least have it distract someone for a

round um and that's all you need it for i mean that is it's best possible result yeah you know it is a level two spell like it's it's not designed to break encounters it's level one heightened to two right have sound and smell yeah right. Right. So it's, you know, sound, smell, all that stuff. I'm like, why not? Why not be a, I just don't want to make it a, you know, a purely non-combat thing because I'll tell you what, again, I am thinking about this nonstop and just the way that we play our games. We never get the jump on any enemy ever we never see the enemy first

every encounter you design we are surprised by so like there's no surprise anymore because now everybody just rolls initiative you know your encounter you're in i don't mean mechanically i mean that we can't see our enemy or know the fight is coming and come come up with a plan for how to like attack the fight it seems to never happen it's always and then suddenly you see this role for initiative well it's because you don't have a character that is stealthing or invisible and sneaking into rooms if you open up a door and there's enemies in there there's really i mean i could have them playing cards and then you guys are all in the room what the where, where did these heroes come from? We were playing war. You know, I think that if you had a rogue

or you had, you know, if you were like, I'm going invisible, I'm fucking going in there. Let's find out what's going on. You had someone that could walk through walls, then you could do more scouting. But to my defense, it's just not built that way. It's like you open the door and you walk into the room and there's enemies, let's fight.

But that seems to be what it is all the time now yeah i could go invisible more i guess and do more scouting but i also am afraid to to be honest because because it's strange aeons because of how many creatures we've come up against that are cosmic horrors where invisibility is not means nothing they have no eyes they're freakish all mouth heads. You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. They can sense invisibility from a mile away. There's a lot of that in Strange Ants.

Let's get down to brass tacks. Yeah. You've made a ruling, I'm assuming. I can never cast this again to make it look like a creature. Yeah. Sorry. But if you want to change out that spell for free, that's fine because I've been allowing it for a long time because i did not read the rule well by the way uh shout out to vado lander that brought this up um who is now your worst enemy yeah fuck them

dude it's a fucking object it's an object it't, I'm just going to objectifying that womp. That's what I'm doing. I'm objectifying that mama womp. All right, fine. Get ready for a whole bunch of constructs. Is a robot, uh,

uh, an object. Keep your robots and your guns out of my epic fantasy. I'm going to do a luxury object. And it's just going to be a tank. You can have a statue with a giant gun pointed to be a tank. You can have a statue. With a giant gun pointed right at the enemies. You can have a statue. You can't have a construct.

It's got to be an object. You're going to make an apple. You can't make an apple with an apple man. Apple man. That's my sample man. Watch out. Steve Jobs. All right.

I have to leave in 17 minutes. So we've got to get through the rest of this. Okay. Yeah, well, we can wrap this quick. Let's go through Professor Eric's notes. The top note that I loved was all around, I think this feels like a better product as a result. product as a result. And this goes back to what he was saying initially, that all of these things that we had, as complicated

as it was, the rules discussions have been much shorter, the players seem to have their material ready more of the time, and Joe's player captain reminder, especially on the concealed firewall, came faster and was more targeted. All around, it feels like a better product. I really hope you guys are all feeling that way, too.

So, very nice comment from Eric. Thank you. That's cool. It feels that way when we're playing it too. But there are times where it still feels like a slog. So it's that thing. Maybe the slog worry is like I'm worried people are bored when they're like, no, we're loving this. But if I feel bored.

But I mean it's also – there's another layer to it that goes just beyond the game. It is being remote is a big part of it. You're sitting alone in a room with hot lights on your face. It's progressively getting hotter and hotter in the room. You are you're just alone. You're alone in this room and your turns are 30 minutes apart. And when your turns do come, everything that you planned has changed because of how whatever dumb thing Matthew did. No, like whatever situation changed that then threw your whole plan out of whack.

And then you're stuck, like trying to figure out how to to do the best possible thing with the limited time that you have. And it just makes everybody stop, stop essentially like you're just not moving forward because you're so afraid of moving back at all and i think that we just have to get into a headspace where we're not afraid of moving back i also think that being in a room together is going to drastically change our interest in everyone else's moments and turns and actions and everything like that uh limit distractions and it'll be in a more comfortable space so yeah anyway i'm i'm i think that that'll have a big impact on it as well um so this from eric i love this this is why i love professor eric this is not a rule you got wrong to his knowledge he does not know the whomps 2e stat block but he did want to bring up that's something that is

useful to watch out for for all all enemies or for all GMs. And I did not know this. I have the stab block in front of me so I can defend it. He said a lot of times the claw flurry type actions, multiple attacks that don't incur the multiple attack penalty until the end, which you had, right? It was two actions to attack three times without a multiple attack penalty. He said these kinds of attacks often require random or split targeting. It's not a rule, but it tends to be a monster design trend in 2E. It is a strong enough trend that I expect it's probably meant to be the rule with some rare exceptions.

The more common action-efficient multi-attacks like three attacks for two actions with normal map rules don't usually come with targeting restrictions. Are you following this? Am I making sense? I am, but I don't know if I agree. Unless we could see some sort of reference in the book that talks about sort of unwritten targeting restrictions. It just sounds kind of silly to me because it – No, no. He said it's not a rule.

It is a monster design trend. So most of these monsters, if you look at their ability, it will say that you have to do split targeting with the ability. Oh, that's so weird. I think I know what you're talking about. But that's like from a game. Is there a 2E womp or did Ron make it up? I don't think there is one. But I can see what you're saying,

like a claw flurry on another creature might specify these attacks must be against different things. Kind of like the forceful property, right? Or sweeping, like you only get those bonuses if you attack a different things. Kind of like the forceful property, right? Or sweeping. You only get those bonuses if you attack a different creature. So I can understand that from a game design perspective. But what game design doesn't take into account

is what we do. And for me, spreading out the damage amongst players isn't as helpful than targeting one player and taking them out of the fight, because then it forces everybody to change their tactics. Giving eight points of damage to one, and seven points to another, and six points to another, it doesn't change the stakes of the encounter, rather than dealing 21 points of damage to one person. Because now, that person has to change what they do, and everyone else has to then adapt because now that person has to change what they do and everyone else

has to then adapt based on that character now needing to step back and heal or not be as aggressive. So I understand that from a design perspective. I just think it's silly in terms of how it works for our show. Now, I'm not going to change those rules. I don't have any plans to if it says that you specifically have to do that. But in the case of the WAMP that Ron converted, it did not have that restriction. He said GMs should also especially watch out for random or split targeting requirements on hazards, which are often extraordinarily deadly if you ignore the targeting restrictions and just pile up full accuracy attacks on one character. and just pile up full accuracy attacks on one character. So he's just saying in general the design, I believe,

is if you're not taking a multiple attack penalty, the reason you're not taking a multiple attack penalty is because you're supposed to split targets, generally speaking. So it's not really something that's like he's saying is a rule. He's saying it's something to keep an eye on. If you read an ability and you're like, oh, man, I get to attack three times and I take no map until after the third attack, make sure you read to the last line of the ability is all. For sure. Yeah. And Pathfinder 2, if it seems too good to be true, it almost always is.

I just think that there is a – even if that's the design intent, it doesn't jive with creating a podcast. it doesn't jive with creating a podcast yeah this is another thing he brought up which i thought of on air but i don't want to like ask it about this stuff on air but he says you might want to check aldo's ac he said 33 being a crit sounds a little suspect to him he said i think you're level eight so 10 plus two trained plus 8 level plus 5 combined dex and armor plus 1 armor potency would lead to an expected AC of 26. I could believe based on builds and choices maybe not getting the normal 5 from dex armor, but I'd be very surprised to lose 2 or 3 points there, given that the alchemist wants dex to throw bombs. So like Skid I'm sure is maxing his dex or getting it close close to max because he probably is maxing intelligence armor potency rules this is interesting armor potency rules runes are level five if anyone is missing that now that's a major surprise and is an expected

gear progression so we should all have plus one armor at this stage and i don't any of these stops along the river um it's just not something we remotely think about you probably i mean does anyone know how much gold you have like this is no we don't we don't really get that much gold it feels like this has been a low treasure thing and then you've got the added weirdness of like the treasure you find in the dreamlands you can't take back to the other world yeah but i definitely want to be more diligent about it um with gatewalkers what is your system for blood of the wild do you have a treasure keeper no no uh we're using an alternate rule for uh for it which is fucking awesome um oh i forget the name of it Is it a variant rule from the book? Yeah. Because I think I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, it's four low treasure adventures. Automatic bonus progression system. Yeah, okay, I've heard about that. It's from the Game Mastery Guide. And basically, it just... Yeah, so it's perfect. So when you get to level two, it's attack potency plus one. So all your attacks go up plus one. You don't need to put it on an item because you're playing in an adventure

that specifically does not have a lot of magic items or a lot of magic runes laying around. You know, we're playing in kind of like prehistoric dinosaur land. So like there aren't just magic items laying around. Skill potency at level three, you pick one skill and it goes up a level or gets a plus one rather. Level four, you get striking property, basically. So you get to add a damage die. And then level five, there it is, defense potency plus one. So you get plus one to your AC at level five. So you're seeing how it correlates. He's saying level five, you should have access to that by now. Basically, it does away with having to track your gold and buy new items, which is fun for people. I get that.

But, like, I feel like we don't have as much fun with that. I feel like these days we're so focused on story and encounters that we're not so focused on shopping. It's just not something that we have time for. Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, there are posts every time you stop. I mean, sometimes you're not going to stop. When Nyrell Twiceborn, in his little village, you're not going to be like, where's the nearest armorer? But in other places, like when you're in Galt, you could have looked for a place, but you guys just aren't thinking about that. And we've had so many different changes in the cast and this being a live tour and a live Twitch. And I can understand that. I first read about that automatic bonus progression on Owen Casey Stevens' blog. By the way, keep Owen in your prayers.

He's going through some health problems. He was talking about the variant rules he was using for his campaign that he's running. I was like, oh, that's interesting. It's not something I think – it won't help for gatewalkers. And changing it now for strange aeons wouldn't make sense. uh it might just mean we need a little set a little shopping session yeah i think it's something that we have to like zero in on and um yeah we we need to get either uh let's let's do kate we should make kate do treasure yeah ridiculous get on the treasure i can also like sometimes i'm good about like emailing you guys sometimes Sometimes during a live show, I'm emailing you.

Here's that treasure you just found. Yeah, yeah. You'll just copy and paste it like from the book. Yeah, we do have to be. Matthew has been diligent about it in the past. I think that he's just fallen off a little bit. You know, everybody's just so slammed when we get together. We're really just focused on scenes for the show.

You know, we're not as much focused on the overall game and shopping and all that kind of shit. So, yeah. I mean, that was pretty much it. Anything else? Any other notes that he wrote? He ended up striking out, striking through because by the end of the episode, we fixed it ourselves. The wall of fire damage doesn't start until the creatures turn.

We fixed that. Minions get their automatic action to defend or escape if they're in that situation. We figured that out during the show and, the concealment flat check for the healing of Ethel through the firewall. We figured that out during the show. Um, but one thing I don't see on this entire list is anything about illusory

object from professor Eric. I know you missed that one professor. Did you miss that professor? Professor write in and let's talk about it next week. Tell us, uh, if Joe is Hondo percent wrong or just 90% wrong. stopped keeping track of whether you were hitting the shield and the fact that the shield breaks and all that because you just weren't getting close to defeating them. And I didn't feel like doing that math. We also weren't even hitting them. Yeah, you weren't hitting them. Nobody hit them.

I stopped kind of keeping track of this and it doesn't matter. They all have 140 hit points and no one is doing any damage. And once Ethel moved away, it really didn't matter. So at a certain point in the show, behind the scenes, I just had all their shields be broken and was just taking full damage and it still didn't matter. It didn't even come close to mattering. Yeah. I was worried about being called out. I was like, I wonder if anybody noticed that I'm not really tracking the shields. And that happens in a game. I'm like, here's the thing I'm doing and it doesn't really matter. So I'm not going to worry about it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

I'm curious to see in Gatewalkers as we get more reps with this, what those third actions are going to look like. And I'll tell you, it does make it tempting to just make a fighter with a shield because then your third action is already pretty much set. Make one and put them in this party because we desperately – more than a cleric. I think a thousand – usually it's like you need a cleric. A thousand times more than a cleric. We need a barbarian or a melee-dealing ranger or someone. Or a champion. Yeah.

Somebody that can just deal out massive amounts of damage. I mean, Ethel's great. The AOOs are great. But, dude, when – Ethel's your main damage dealer, when Matthew's cold, you guys are in trouble. And Matthew goes to cold streets. Matthew slumps. He slumps. He slumps hard.

Ethel gets the yips. Ethel gets the Chuck Knobloch yips. And that's brutal because now it's like, what are we going to do? Yeah, but I don't know. We're having fun. And like I said, we're progressing to a point where the adventure is about to change. And I'm really excited for that change that's coming very soon in the coming months. But nothing has me more excited than Gatewalkers.

Yeah, for sure. And I'll tell you, looking through the party, like the thing with the party right now, at least, is it is not ideal. It is not dealing enough damage. However, you could not find a single player in this party to change their character. You know what I mean? And that's a good sign. You know what I mean? People are enjoying what they're playing. They're into their character and they're having fun. So we'll just have to find another way. Except Skid. Skid likes Aldo more than he likes the alchemist. That's for sure. If we could have him go through some sort of vicious transformation. Right. Now he's just a barbarian.

He's just a barbarian. I should have that conversation with Skid because I think he'd enjoy that a lot more. Just some sort of hand of God. You're no longer an alchemist. He's playing the barbarian in Blood of the Wild. And when I tell you he is having the most fun he has ever had playing Pathfinder. I mean, his glee, his unbridled glee in every combat is just – it's something to behold. Well, it's important, man.

That is like the most important thing. It's not if we get the rules right. Sometimes it's not even if the story is like the greatest thing you've ever heard. It's us having fun around the table. And if there's things that we can do to, uh, increase the fun around the table,

I'll fucking do it. You know what? It would increase my fun. Making an illusory object. Some things are out of my hands. Dude, that's the thing. And that's what skit says all the time that's like so true it's like it's nothing's out of your hands literally you can decide everything which also means that everything is your fault i will i will take the blame for that all right everybody thank you guys so much it It's been a great long FOD.

Good FOD. I hope you have a great week and we'll have more news and hopefully some signed paperwork next week on a new office. Until then, have a good one, have a good weekend and we'll talk to you in March. Later everybody. Good FOD yourself. Thanks for listening to the Glass Cannon Network. For more podcasts and live streams

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