The Glass Cannon Podcast - Cannon Fodder 8/21/24

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

As Troy and Joe return from a week off, they launch into a CHUNKY Fod that covers a huge new collaboration between the GCN and Foundry VTT, the question of losing your innocence as a Pathfinder 2E gamer, and how a vacation with kids is no vacation at all! In We Are Stupid, a stunning realization about the Remastered Grab ability, a grappling realization about Stunning Fist, and an epic fight over the definition of the word Instance. In Listener Mail, do you enjoy chatting with people on your commute home after a long day of work? Watch the video here: https://youtu.be/SjHo3tKMwCc For more podcasts and livestreams, visit glasscannonnetwork.com and for hundreds of hours of exclusive shows and benefits, make your membership official and join Glass Cannon Nation today by becoming a subscriber at jointhenaish.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Go to kraken.com and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer for info on kraken's undertaking to register in Canada. You are listening to the Glass Cannon Network, the premier source for role-playing game entertainment. Welcome to Cannon Fodder, a behind the scenes look at the Glass Cannon Network. Yeah! What is going on, Niche? Welcome back to the fodder.

It is Wednesday, August 21st, 2024, and I'm your old pal, Joe Brian. And I'm Troy. I was just pretending to be on the phone, LaValle. That's for the video, folks. Wow. That's a real good bit. A classic bit. I gotta go.

I gotta go. I've got things to do. I've got things to do. Remember those early side quest, side sesh like beginning of the pandemic. They all started with like a bit. Yes. We had so much. I was, they'll come up from time to time on like my YouTube playlist.

I'll be like, Oh, let me see. Let me go back to this. Man, we, we struck gold back then. Outside of all the people that died, there was a lot of fun during that pandemic. But that was just, I mean, the, up of SideQuest SideSession, the exploration of all those new games and new game who did this, it was just so much fun! Yeah, that was it, man. That was it. That was the future of the network was right there. All it took was a worldwide pandemic.

Or a plandemic, am I right? What's up, everybody? It's good to be back. We took a week off. It's nice. It's nice to be back. Where did you go? Do you want to tell the people? I forgot. Oh, I went to Rehoboth Dewey Beach area.

Oh, that's right. The dew. You got to do the dew. Love the dew. This was the family beach trip this year and I was like, you know what? I really want to, I haven't been back to Rehoboth in forever and I've really never been there. I was only been to Rehoboth off season. And now we, you know, we used to do the Carolinas, but I can't fly for 14 children out and you

can't drive, you know, three children under six, 15 hours anymore. I can't do it. So I'm like, we can do a five hour drive. Let me look into Rehoboth. And so we went out there and I mean, we had the best fucking time. And you know what it is, like, traveling with kids, it's not a vacation.

It's like, it's a memory making experience that's usually like, ah, ah, ah, constantly. But like we found- Did you know, did I tell you this, that last year I was in Ocean City in New Jersey. No. Not Ocean City, Maryland was in Ocean City in New Jersey? No. Not Ocean City, Maryland, but Ocean City, New Jersey on the boardwalk and we lost Joe.

We lost my son on the boardwalk. You didn't tell me this. It was horrifying, horrifying. You didn't tell me this. I never told you that. No. So we were all there, we had cousins and everything, bunch of kids and we were stopped at like a stand at night.

Like it's dark, like getting food for everybody. We start passing out the food to the kids and he's five years old now. And I'm like, where is he? And we're looking all over the place and I start having heart palpitations and there are a million people on the boardwalk Saturday night, middle of the summer. And I just freaking out. I found a cop and I was like, hey, I lost my son. Can't find him. Where was he? What does he look like? What's he wearing? Right down on a little pad. He just goes in and was looking for a blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. She going to boom? Two seconds later, comes crackling. Yeah, we got him. He's a two seconds later.

And I was like, what? I'm getting chills even just thinking about it. So he's like, yeah, he's up here at ninth street, like one block away. So we walk up and hear like, some like this other cop has him and he just like runs up gives me a hug. And here's some other parent was just like, saw him and was like, hey, bud, is your mom and dad around? Because nobody was around him. He's a five-year-old kid. And he started looking around like, oh no, I don't know where they are. And so he immediately just walked him over to a cop and they were just like, boop, boop, boop. And I was like, thank God. I had a heart attack. But I mean, that's what vacation down the shore is like with your kids, especially in the middle of the summer.

Like on the beach in the water. Like I want them to play in the water. I want them to have fun, but I'm just like constantly like, you can't swim anymore. You can be like, please. They don't realize like, you know, I've got dad. So dad, Evie's still a little enough where like she'll say with Sam, it's like Dash and Archer want to go in the water, but they don't realize like, watch out, you're going to get rocked and you're not going to like it.

Like, oh, that wave, you ran away from that one, you ran away from that one, they're looking this way. Boom! And so they both get rocked by a wave at several times and then they're just like, well, we're not going to do the water for a little bit because like, it sucks. You don't know it's coming and you don't know what that tastes like. It's like, ah, what does this taste like? I can't see.

And you think you're going to die. It's like that first moment as a child, you realize like the fragility of life. Like something just happened here that I didn't like. The ocean and particularly the surf will teach you about mortality at a very early age. You know, and then we got this condo and like they come in and it's just like, let's destroy it. And so they're just tearing, we have to like whip it phones out of the wall. And like, destroy it. And so they're just tearing. We have to like ripping phones out of the wall. And like, it's I mean, it's just pandemonium trying to get feeding people on the go and whatnot. But that said, like once we caught our groove, it was just a wonderful trip. And I'm definitely going back next year. I think we're hoping to do any outlet shopping.

No, no, no, no. Skip the outlets. Did did some dogfish heading though. I went to the brewery a couple times and their restaurant on the boardwalk just had a great fucking time and much needed. I tried to unplug from this as much as possible, which is impossible. I think we did pretty good. We didn't exchange an email all week, which is really awesome. Yeah, I didn't. Well, we're at this point now with a company where we don't, you know, especially on vacation, we don't really have to we just contact everybody else like, Hey, can you do that? Exactly. It's great to have that little getaway, especially

after Jen, which was crazy. So anyway, sorry, we're getting carried away. Where did you go, though? Where did you go? Are you talking about me? I went to Maine. I never I forgot where you went the whole weekend. I went up to Maine and I did the true unplug. When I say we didn't exchange emails, it's because I couldn't receive emails, which is just amazing. This house that is in my brother-in-law's house that's been in his family for 100 years,

literally 100 years, is like a log cabin on an island in a lake in Maine. They've had internet there like at times, but in this recent transition, where he is sort of the head owner of this house, basically, is like, they just haven't gotten it yet. And he's not really into getting it until they can run fiber there. He's like, until they run fiber here, I'm not like, like nickel and diming to like sketch a bit of Wi Fi, like, I'll use cellular off the island when I need it or whatever. It was a real unplugged vacation. It's a lake vacation, which is just like the beach, but without the deadly surf. It was just lake swimming. These lakes are not like lakes around

here, man. It's just crystal clear. You can see 10 feet deep in the water. I mean, it's just crazy how clean it is. And so that was beautiful and played tons of games, tons of board games, played a little pandemic which was fun. Haven't played that in like a couple of years. That was good. What else did we play? Above and Below, which I love. And oh, I bought a Gen Con. I bought Little Epic Vikings. So that was fun. So we busted that out. I played that with my brother in law. Did you have some good beer, some good local beer? Did you get some Maine Beer Co.? Yes. We did a trip to Freeport one day. I was going to say, how far are you from Freeport? We were one hour from Freeport. One hour north?

One hour. We were north of Freeport. We had to drive south to Freeport. You were way up there. Yeah. We did an hour or a day in Freeport, which was great. The yeah, that's there. And so it was awesome. We went to the LLB. Yeah. I got the kids new backpacks for school at the LB and outlet. Some rolls while you're out there.

Yeah, dude. Pies. Yeah. Oh, I didn't get a whoopie pie, but I went to the, you know, well, I guess they all say that they're going to be a famous, a famous lobster roll place in, I also love that Maine's abbreviation is M-E. I think that that's so funny. Gary Gullman. There's a great place.

You know Gary Gullman, the comedian? He's got a great bit about state abbreviations. He like role plays all the people that were in the room that came up with the abbreviation. You'd love it. It's right up your alley, Gary Gullman. like role plays all the people that were in the room that came up with the abbreviation. That's a good fit. You'd love it. It's right up your alley, Gary Golinsko. For whatever reason, I can't find the name of this place, but it's a woman's name, famous lobster rolls.

I went there. Oh, wait. Linda Beans. Linda Beans Maine Kitchen. There it is. Linda Beans Maine Kitchen. Never heard of it. So good.

Great lobster roll. It was awesome. So yeah, it was a great trip, but I'm excited to be back. I really am. I'm actually, there was a good break and but I'm excited to be back. I really am. I'm actually there was a good break and I played game. Oh, I don't want to get into I can't keep talking about vacation. I really This is what people want man.

This is good. Whether or not we use the right attack. So I busted out the you would think I needed a break from gaming but not me. I just I could do it every day. I busted out the Pathfinder Beginner Box Remaster. What's wrong with you? The Remaster Beginner Box. We should have cut you off now. Busted it out for my, what is it, 10-year-old niece, 11-year-old niece, 9-year-old niece, my 8-year-old daughter, and my brother-in-law. The four of them were a party. My son played too,

but he loosely played like an NPC basically. He was like, can I cook potions for people? I was like, absolutely. And so he just kept healing everybody for free. It was really fun. But they played the pre-gens and we started the adventure. And it was great because I had like the actual maps and the actual, the character sheets have a lot of great detail, but they're also simplified for everything. And so we did about roughly half of the beginner box over two days of playing in Maine. It was so fun. And we did it outside.

This is the 2E beginner box? Like in the woods. What's that? 2E beginner box? 2E remaster. The remaster beginner box. Oh, that's cool. Which just came out.

So I bought it on Amazon and just like took it up there in the cellophane. So I opened it up. Literally we put a folding table in the woods. I was like, we carry chairs out of the house. I was just geeking out. We did it like in bathing suits. And then like after a while to get a little hot and be like, let's run into the lake. I mean, it was just, it was so fun. Look at all the lead jinnies all set up, jump in the lake. It was freaking great. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. It was a great little vacay, but I'm excited to get

back. I'm excited to play. In fact, we got big news about a new game that you and I just played that we're about to talk about. And of course, we'll look into GCP episodes 46 and 47 of Campaign 2, which happened while we were gone. A nice chunky We Are Stupid from Professor Eric and then a little listener, a little light listener mail this week because We Are Stupid is going to be a little chunkier. Let's talk about Ember. Bum, bum, bum, boo. Ember. And teasing that there'd be a big sponsor situation. A big sponsorship. There's something happening. We've been cooking something. We couldn't talk

too much about it, but some of you out there may know, I know a lot of people really loved when we made the move to Foundry, when Foundry became a sponsor of the GCP campaign too. And lovers of Foundry may know that this project has been cooking in the background for a while at Foundry, but it is an entirely new tabletop gaming experience, an online digital tabletop gaming experience by the creators of Foundry, and it is called Ember. It is at once a full new setting, a full new campaign and a full new Foundry module and way to play with people that is different than before.

It can be adapted to 5e or it can be used with a new original rule system that is still in development. But we got first looks at a very pre-alpha version of Ember. And we decided, along with Foundry, that we are going to play this and air it on YouTube. When? Like, it's going to start in a couple of weeks, right? So the Ember Kickstarter for Foundry VTT launches on Tuesday, September 3rd, the next night, Wednesday, September 4th, and the next three Wednesdays after that, the 11th, the 18th

and the 25th, we're going to do a four part mini series playing, you know, chapter one of this epic, epic campaign on Foundry VTT. And it's going to be a Dungeon Mastered by the founder and creator on Foundry VTT and it's gonna be a dungeon mastered by the founder and creator of Foundry virtual tabletop Andrew Clayton who I mean he does it's like it's like Ray Charles playing Foundry watching him do this because we had a long session with him yesterday in the studio this is all happening in the studio this is all in person by the way I mean, I learned more about Foundry watching him do it than I did in a year of playing it myself.

Yeah, we took a break between some recording and you were like, I'm learning a lot about what I'm doing with Foundry. Man, he's cooking. It's so funny, I've seen so many comments over the last year on YouTube. They're like, you guys could be doing more with Foundry. There's more blah, blah, blah out there.

So this was a cool insight into how a master runs a session in Foundry. There's more blah blah blah out there. So this was a cool insight into how a master runs a session in Foundry and we were the beneficiaries of that for sure. So I don't want to say too much about it because I want you to really be surprised by what you see. September 4th. Fourth. My birthday. Your B-day. September 4th, 8 p.m. Eastern premiering on our YouTube channel is going to be Andrew Clayton, founder and creator of Foundry VTT, running us through a first look at a pre-alpha

of Ember. And when I say pre-alpha, I say that because Andrew kept hammering that home that they're kickstarting this. It is in the early stages of its development, but you will not see anything that looks pre alpha in this playthrough. It looks like a finished product. And we said that at the table, like, I think some of it was even off air. Like, yeah, well, this is pre alpha. What is this? Like, it seems like done and dusted and polished and ready to go and is amazing. And, you know, Andrew is just like, it's, it's, it's got a long way to go. They are just so passionate about the detail in

this thing. You can tell because it's a whole new world and it's really done in an incredible way. I can't wait for you guys to see it. I'm very excited for you to check it out. Tune in, but more importantly, support the Kickstarter with whatever you can. We want to make sure that we funnel as many people over there to help get this project cooking, because this is their most ambitious project they've ever done and they've been working on it for a long, long time and will continue to work on it for a long, long time. They've been working on this a few years before it ever hit a Kickstarter.

So I think it's going to be so worth it. Back it early, get in. If you back it, I'm not sure how it all works with the Kickstarter. It'll be their decision how it all flows. But I know that some people will definitely, depending on their pledges, will be involved in pre-alpha testing. So you will get access to it.

You'll be able to play what we played. And what I didn't say on air there that I'll say here that isn't a spoiler for the actual show is that I would absolutely back this project, No BS, as a GM. I would love to run this for friends of mine that are all over the country, because it really is a great way to run a digital game with friends that are not with you,

because it is designed specifically for that, and is mastered for virtual gaming and digital gaming. And so it has so many nooks and crannies to dig into that are all supported digitally for a user that is on his own computer or they're on computer. And so yeah, it's just very, I'm going to do it. Like I'm going to run this campaign for friends of mine. I know I will at some point. So much of the work is done for the GM. Exactly. The work is done for the GM and the players.

And so yeah, that's another thing you'll see when we sit down to show this to you. Andrew was adamant. He was like, you should come to the table with nothing, because it's designed to get people into it with the lowest lift possible. So yeah, anyway. And make sure when you do follow it,

click through our links to do it, because then Foundry knows that you came from us. We don't get any sort of kickback or anything like that. It just shows like, wow, the nation really funnels people to our projects. Right. And it encourages Foundry to do more work with us. So yeah, we don't get a cut of anything. It's not an affiliate program, but it is like when they see those analytics, they're more inclined to do more work with the GCP and the GCN. So yeah, please help us by using that link to go through. What else? I mean, the only thing that I'll say in terms of news, let's get back right into the

GCP is that I'm back to finally streaming Elden Ring today. So it's been a while. I took a little vacay and I'm really like getting close to the end here. I'm in the final level It's awesome. And so four o'clock Eastern today I'll be on Twitch streaming Elden Ring. So excited to get back into that nice Boston sold out Philly has like 20 something tickets left plenty of seats in Portland is a huge theater and and My family bought an entire table in Philly for the first time. They coordinated with each other to purchase the entire same table

all the way in the back of the place and it is going to be rowdy. They are so fired up. Philly is going to be sold out by the end of August, but there's plenty of seats in Portland because this is such a big theater and LA's got tickets left too, but I think we might sell out LA. So yeah, man, things are looking up. Yeah, the tour's been great this year. Thank you guys so much. Anybody that bought tickets this year to any of our shows, the ticket sales have been great. So many sellouts.

It really feels like it's back to pre-pandemic form. And I really appreciate all you guys for supporting us there. All right, let's talk about these apps. Maybe we'll go back to Form. How about the Glass Cannon podcast? We are, look behind the curtain. Tomorrow, we are jumping back into the studio, recording some more. We haven't played since Gen Con, so I'm really excited to get back in the studio and continue Gatewalkers because it's been a blast. Where we are at in the story is awesome. We've recorded a little ahead of where we are, but it's aired right now, so I can't

talk too much about why I'm excited to get back in the studio. But what I can say right now is that the episodes that got us here I think are really awesome, starting with 46 and the return to the Elven Kingdom here. Obviously, in the episode before, we get all the incredible kind of lore drop stuff and learn a lot more about what's been going on here with Osoyo, the Black Frost Whale, and all that stuff is really exciting. But then all of a sudden, like you said, every time you think you know where this is going, it kind of takes a pivot.

We come back like, all right, let's go. We have the formula for the cure. Let's get this elf cured so that she can facilitate our return to Glarian so that we can find a Soyuz Black Frost Well. This is sort of what's going on, I feel like, in the mind of the general player at this point. This is kind of our vibe at the table. We get back and immediately it's like, oh, well, the formula that you've learned that we need has one ingredient that you have to go get. It's like another adventure. I'm like so into it.

I just love this. I think it's a really cool idea, a really cool part to be a really cool part to be traveling out to this ancient tower to like blow a horn. It's a cool concept and you're traveling with these companions that are bringing all this stuff with them. What's the word I'm looking for? Just folks that are, because it's going to be like an expedition, right? That's the word I believe. It's like an expedition out to this place in the jungle. And yeah, anyway, I'm kind of lumping these two in together and kind of cross talking them back and forth. But I'll start right at the top with a comment from one of our YouTube viewers at the gym, Topia, who is clearly a moron.

Because his comment is, oh, my God, I'm so happy Hubert is back. Get the hell out of here with that. Guys, the worst. The worst. Hubert's going to be here till the end of the campaign. You are never going to, you have found in Hubert, you are perfect NPC to execute all of the ridiculous shit that goes on in your brain. All the filth. All the filth that goes on in your brain. So yeah, I mean, that was just so funny to come back and to see that.

And then to have the comment be like, why didn't we erase memory of Hubert? And then Kate's like, because then we'd have to meet them all over again. It was just really good. Bravo to Kate for that one. We also saw, and this is a great comment from the unlucky every dude who said, the only thing this bet has done is make you play your character more effectively. In quotes, it makes me so sad that that's 100% true. Which brings up an interesting point.

I'd like to pitch this to you And then and really to the audience and on YouTube. I'd love you to comment here with your answer like and I don't want to talk about the bet. I don't care about the bet like the bet being the catalyst for this is Not what I'm talking about. What the question I want to ask is In this case the bet is the catalyst but other cases, it might just be experience or amount of time playing the game or whatever. Do you feel like the purity of someone that has not played a ton of a game like Pathfinder and who is bringing interesting and strange ideas for how to approach combat or how to approach encounters. Do you believe that when that innocence in a way is lost by learning that you are just

playing a mechanical game that has a specific design that benefits from you doing certain activities that will result in tactically the most likely success or or or success is not the right word but the survival of your character like does that lose a certain purity of the game. Do you prefer having players that don't know how to tactically play or is it better to have players that do know how to tactically play or does that make the game boring? Do you understand what I'm kind of getting at here? What I'm trying to drive at? Kind of. I mean, I think what makes it difficult is that 2E much more so than 1E requires tactical

play. Exactly. Exactly. It kind of punishes it. If it doesn't require so much, it punishes poor tactical play. Right. Where is that a good thing about the game design? Is that a bad thing about the game design or is it neutral?

Depends what kind of game you're trying to do, right? I don't know if it's necessarily a bad or good thing. I think it's more, it's definitely more subjective. Is it bad for a podcast? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But if you like a game like that, then no, I don't think it's bad. But if you prefer a more loose that, then no, I don't think it's bad. But like if you prefer a more loosey goosey approach, you know, a more loosey goosey game might be better for you.

Or you need to have a GM that is able to manipulate the game in such a way that your more laissez faire style will can still work. But it's hard to do with 2E where it's like if you want to play tactical and someone else wants to be more like, I want to try something fun that is just not, it's not, you're not going to win. Someone's going to die if you do that. Like you got to kind of decide as a GM, well like, am I going to let them just play both of their games and reward one and reward, you know, it gets, it gets really, really

tricky. games and reward one and reward, you know, it gets, it gets really, really tricky in the past in one E I felt like I could very much play to people's styles a little bit better and, and try to make everyone, you know, relatively happy. Um, not all the time, but some of the time with two E, I don't know, it just doesn't lend itself to that. So I hate to call it bad or good. But like, I believe that, and I've heard this from many people that part of TUI's design is that you are so rewarded for teamwork and for synergistic gameplay. And that that is a positive aspect of the system. And while I tend to agree with that, that also comes with the price. It means like, people can't

be creative outside of tactics without endangering other people. Now, I'm not saying there's no creativity. That's not what I'm saying. But I am saying that like, take Sydney as an example, if the fact of the matter is that she realizes that by always using her movement to flank and always using her spell strike as her first attack and always does it make Asta a less interesting character? You know, does that take away a little bit from the spontaneity and the fun that was had before because we're working so well together and destroying enemies is that fun sacrificing a certain improvisation that doesn't exist anymore?

Anyway, I don't have an answer. I throw it out to you in the comments. How has this developed in your games? Do you as a GM end up having to tell people that they need to start working together or they're all going to die. Have you seen somebody fight, get into a tiff with somebody else because they're like, if you don't do this here, one of us is going to die. You have to do this or whatever. They're like, oh, don't tell me how to play my character. It's tricky.

Well, you know what was fun was doing the gauntlets that we did, obviously, at the Nashville Retreat and also at Gen Con, which I don't know if we've talked about but they were so fucking awesome. They were amazing. Such a resounding success. But like what I told every table going in is because the whole point of the gauntlet is like your second level characters, you're about to face an encounter that like is it's winnable and people won most of them.

We had plenty of TPKs and plenty of deaths as well. And what I told them from the outset is like, this encounter is meant to really stretch the limits of what your character is capable of doing. Your only chance of success is to work together. Telling them that out of the gate, they really played more tactically and the teams that won were the ones that were able to really make it work synergistically. And what was so nice is seeing a different group, different groups, because I played with a bunch of different groups, seeing how everyone handled different problems.

It really lets you see what the system can do. I don't think it needs to stifle that creativity. I think you've just got to find a way to make that your creative ideas work within the sort of meta of this system, which is very tactical and swingy and numbers based. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I always think of the cleric, like my groups in the gauntlets that had clerics were so much more successful by and large than the ones that didn't.

And a lot of those clerics would need to spend every round healing people. And that is not necessarily that sexy, but like if a given cleric in a game up against a really difficult challenge was like, I wanna go up and hit it with my mace because I believe that I can strike this thing down. And like somebody like, you're not good at that. This other person is excellent at that. And they can't stay up if you don't heal them.

And then it says, Oh, you're playing my character. So those are tricky lines that we cross. But anyway, I just thought of that. It was all literally just inspired by your comment during the show of the only thing this bet has done is make you play your character more effectively. I thought was very funny. The unlucky every dude says, it makes me so sad that that's true. I was wondering, where's that sadness coming from?

I was just trying to dig into that. I think it's because you're losing a certain innocence. You're realizing you have to play a certain way in order to survive in this game. Maybe that's a little bit more boring. I don't know. Just something to think about. That's interesting. It was a great fight. I loved that encounter. I don't even remember what that thing was called. It's been too long. But it was the thing that was in the nest at the

bottom of the correct. The correct is super colorful. It had that huge like a OE cone niche attack that like was fire and stuff. That was really, really cool creature. And it was a really fun fight. And both Barnes and Asta, the bet on the line, were excellent. They were just like up there hitting it, flanking with each other, working the sides aside, and Buggles goes down, but we end up saving it, so that was, and defeating it, so that was great.

And then Meta, love this, I truly believed we were done. I was like, that was the encounter. Now we have to climb, you know, the top of the tower with ease. And then these vine things just like also extremely cool encounter and extremely cool idea, because you could just picture it, this ancient jungle tower being loaded with vines and Ivy, all twisting all through it. So you could picture that, but then to have it come alive and attack you, and not just one, but multiples, was really fun.

Pretty deadly encounter too. So did you, you know, did that fight go kind of the way that you expected? Did we walk into a deadly enough situation for you, or were you a little frustrated with our positioning and stuff in that? No, I think it worked out perfectly. I got a couple of you in it right away, but it just poor rolls on my part, great rolls on your part turned it from like, it could have been

a really dangerous encounter when it's happening over a precipice, 30 foot fall, 35 foot fall, whatever it was. But I think I've talked about this before. I'm glad to have talked about this on air even recently. It's like when you have an ability that can lead to a grab and a constrict, if you don't hit on that first attack, it just kind of – it throws off the whole sort of action economy. You know what I mean? You've got to hit on that first thing,

then get your free grab, get your free constrict. Or hit, grab, and then do whatever cool thing you can do. Reposition, which I would just be like, see ya, drop over the ledge. And I kept missing on those first attacks. And then I would miss grab. And then I would, excuse me, hit on the second attack, grab on the third.

And then I've gotta use a grab at the beginning of the next round. It wasn't quite working out for me, but it could have been a much more deadly encounter. It just shows you sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah. It's interesting. It makes me want to move on here to We Are Stupid. Let's see what Professor Eric has to say. There is not a litany of mistakes here, but Professor Eric deep dove on some concepts here that are really interesting that came up throughout the both episodes that I want to get to. And one of them is kind of about how deadly some of these abilities are if your dies or if your die roll in

the right way. So let's do a little we are stupid. There's like a metronome in there or something that like, I don't know if it was intended to stay in there, but it's like, there's like a tt, tt, tt. Dude, I used to use GarageBand all the time. I still do for like our ads and like if you just record without shutting off the metronome, it records the tt. So I don't know if he meant to do that or if he was just like- Or if he left it in there intentionally or if it was just a mistake. Let us know in the comments, Nick Lowe.

All right, so in episode 46, so this thing was called what, a Correc? Is that what it's called? Correc, yeah, I'm bringing it up right now. So this is great analyzation. I love this from Professor Eric. There was quite a bit of chatter, he says, in the chat during the premiere about the damage

from the Correc's boom strike. An odd number on a critical fail surprised people who expected double damage because that should be an even number. And he said, however, it was not a basic save. It had explicitly different dice for a fail versus a crit fail, 3D6 versus 66. Troy ran the monster correctly. I feel like there's not really a well-followed rule for such things. Don't know if there's a Paizo style guide or just different editorial preferences.

Sometimes you see basic save and sometimes you'll see a failure condition and a crit failure condition. In this case, I think that this is intentional because since this is a spammable ability, meaning there's no 1d4 round cooldown, they wanted in the design to have no damage on a success, not half damage. So it's an interesting thing like you're looking at game design there. It's like, since this ability you can do every round, let's not make it a basic save because that could be very deadly getting half damage on even a success. So we will assign specific fail and critical fail damage. Anyway, it was a neat way of looking at like why some monsters' abilities need to recharge

and some don't because they're just so powerful. That was it from 2046. And then let's go on to 2047. The, or I'm sorry, 21st, I'm sorry, internal designation, episode 46 and episode 47 the assassin vines the assassin vine So this goes back to forgotten realms I'm seeing it in like D&D because I didn't write to II and it just came up. It's like forgotten realm

So the assassin vine I think it's been around for a while It's like a classic monster I think it's been around for a while. It's like a classic monster. Okay, so he just says, something to think about with the Assassin Vine's grab. It feels like you may be using a pre-master version of monster abilities. Not surprising since this is a pre-remaster AP.

He says, all the monster abilities like grab and improved grab and shove, et cetera, are no longer automatic. they now need to roll this usually ends up being a buff to strong creatures since they can now get a crit instead of just an auto success and a nerf to weaker creatures slash meaning summons or hordes of small grabby enemies so anyway just something to look at for you that Grab has to you have to roll for grab. Yeah, this is what he's saying in the remaster version, the the remastered grab tends to have success and crit success effects. Oh, as opposed to original pre remaster grab, which was just

automatic, but only had one success, you know, effect basically basically. Well, it wasn't so much automatic. Well, it was automatic. You had to use an action for it. But now I'm curious. I'm not seeing anything about a remastered grab. It was just like as long as the last action was successful strike that lists grab and its damage entry or if the monster has a creature grabbed or restrained, you can just use an action to grab.

And you're reading this off of remaster off online rules? I'm on archives of Nethus remastered. So I wonder if you're looking at something else. There's the grapple action. Oh, I did it. I did it. There's the grapple action. I searched for grab without PF2E.

Nope, none of that. I got grab, the everyday everything app. I think he may be talking about grapple. The grapple action has critical success success Failure and critical failure, but the grab is just an action that you can do if you have the monster ability grab in your damage listing for a specific attack Whereas grapple has Chris success success failure and critical failure. It's an athletics check against the targets for to do DC I mean, I'm looking at this. I'm looking at this the monsters

Requirements the monsters last action was a successful strike that lists grab in its entry Effect after if used after a strike the monster attempts to grapple the creature Using the body part. Oh, I look at that I see that attempt neither applies nor counts towards the creatures multiple attack penalty. So it gets its full BA be on that attempt or whatever full attack. The monster can instead use grab and choose one creature it's grabbing or should that has grabbed to automatically extend that condition to the monsters next turn. So yeah, he's right. Wow. So now for grab, you have to do a grapple attack.

Action. And it has the attack trait, which means it's going to take the penalty. Oh, I hate that. Yeah, I get it. I mean, it's much more like one E, but I liked it more the way it is for the exact reasons that I outlined why the encounter wasn't as dangerous. Now it's going to be even harder to get off that ground. I agree.

But I wonder if the first role changed or if that's the same like we're using the remaster version of the monster There is I don't know if the two hit change. Yeah, anyway, I'm consider. That's really interesting I hate it, but I I get it it's just like now it's gonna maybe a lot of people were dying from constrict or like it's just a lot of deaths from constrict or from like abilities where you could just fucking fling somebody. But I was already lamenting the fact that you had to hit on that first attack in order to grab and then do something cool with your third attack.

Now if you have to hit on your first – lucky, if you're lucky, hit on your first lucky if you're lucky hit on your first attack then use the grapple action to grab on your second with the Attack penalty with the map. No, it's gonna be even harder. No map grab grapple has the attack trait It does but it says this does not take or get penalized or count against. Oh, I didn't hear you say the attack penalty Yeah, okay So the that's what the grab ability gives you is another role at your full jaunt. Now, if you crit, you're not grabbed, you are restrained,

which means you are off guard and immobilized. You can't use any attack actions or manipulate actions except to escape, which is great because I have found myself in 2E, this is both in Blood of the Wild, mainly in Blood of the Wild, grabbed in Blood of the Wild grabbed. And I just like fine, like I'll just I take a penalty. But I'll just wail away on the creature rather than trying to escape, which seems impossible. So I'm just

going to wail away, you know, on the creature. And if but if you crit succeed on that, and you're restrained, you can't do that. Sorry, I got sun in my face. So yeah, very interesting. That's interesting. So when you alright good like failure and crit failure You just don't get the grab which is obviously wasn't a thing before but now When it starts your next turn if they're still grabbed Do you then have to reroll the grapple or do you get the the grab? It's to the end of your next turn. They are grabbed

That's what it says. Your target is grabbed until the end of your next turn unless you move or the target escapes. So yes, if you don't spend an action to grab again in your next turn, they get out for free, but they are grabbed through that whole turn. But if you spend the action to grab, you have to reroll the grapple check. Right. But without any just like that, I'm going to spend an action in my next action to grab, you have to re-roll the grapple check. Right. But without any. It used to be just like, grab. I'm going to spend an action in my next turn to grab, to keep you grabbed. Now you've got to roll. Well, that's interesting.

It's a little swingy. You could fail. But you could restrain them, I guess. Yeah. I mean, restraint, that's a big deal. Yeah. They've definitely thought of everything. My initial gut reaction was like, I don't like it.

I still like a free grab. But I do like to gamble. Nobody's it. I still like a free grab, but I do like to gamble. Nobody's saying they don't like a free grab. Yeah, it's a free grab. Yeah, I don't know why they changed it. It's interesting. Oh, he said, this usually ends up, so basically what he says in the final sentence is it makes grab a much deadlier ability for stronger monsters and not as irritating an ability for weaker monsters. So if they're lower level than you,

it's much more likely they'll never get to grab you, which is cool. Especially if it's not using the map, then stronger monsters are more likely going to crit and restrain you. Pin you in one single action. Constrict you, pin you. So yeah, you can't cast any spells.

So if you're a wizard, you're screwed. You have to use an escape action. That's interesting. I'm going to do that to you so you can't heal. Small comment from the nation on the order of operations for Stunning Fist. This is just like a note for future reference. Technically, Stunning Fist happens after taking damage. You typically have been streamlining it so that Troy is rolling the save while Zephyr

is rolling damage. That's all good. But just remember that if it ever comes up, the stun applies after taking damage. So you couldn't be stunned out of shield blocking, for example, the damage. You can shield block the damage first, then you get stunned. Just an example of the order of operations. What if you shield block all the damage, then you get stunned. Just an example of the order of operations. What if you shield block all the damage? It doesn't matter.

It's still good. It doesn't matter. Yeah, it could still like... But isn't it damage? Is it damage that triggers the Stunning Fist or is it successful? It's just the failure of the fortitude set. It's the failure of the fortitude set. So it's really just like, it could be jarring even if you didn't take damage if you hit it.

Yeah, exactly. If you hit a shield hard enough. That's cool. like it could be jarring even if you didn't take damage. Yeah, exactly. If you hit a shield hard enough. And also it's, yeah, I mean, it's possible to have the shield block all the damage. It doesn't happen often. You'd have to roll very low because the shields don't block a lot of damage.

But it's not damage dependent, it's Fortitude save dependent. Right, exactly. It's Fort save dependent. Okay, he said it hasn't been relevant thus far in the campaign, but it's a nuance to be aware of. So yes, thank you. Okay, now, I'm not going to go all into this because this is deep ass shit. And I love when Professor Eric goes down this road, but it is not something that I can even explain here. In fact, I professor, you and I have to have a conversation about this. This has to do once again, with with Barnes, I mean, goddamn Barnes and this class but really it's it brings up the general rules of weaknesses and how they are triggered. And essentially what he gets into here that I'm not going to go down the road too far is when it says by the book if a creature has two weaknesses, let's say a creature has slashing five and fire five weakness and you slash them with a fire weapon

It says by the book if a single instance of damage Prox two different weaknesses you only take damage from the one that is the greater weakness. That's by the book what these Pathfinder lawyers rules lawyers dig it into is how do you define an instance of damage? So, is it 2d6 slashing and fire? Or is it the enemy takes 1d6 slashing and 1d6 fire? People are arguing in the community whether that is two different instances of damage that are calculated separately, or if it has to say one number slashing and fire is how

the weaknesses are proct. So it is not in the rules. It is not been decided. What does it fall under where they even distinguish that you only take one of the other? It doesn't. It's not, oh, it's under, sorry, it says. Is it resistance or no? Weakness?

All damage from one strike is a single instance of damage. That's a quote. And then... Maybe then if you say, under the first strike, I felt two is five, I'm weak, just five or two, two. If you have a weakness, then it normally doesn't want to take damage to the weakness.

If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, this is under weakness. Use only the highest applicable weakness value. This usually only happens when a creature is weak to both a type of damage and a material or trait, such as cold iron axe cutting a monster that has a weakness to cold iron and slashing. Right.

So it's the, so like how do you define instance of damage? Is the question. I think it's like all the damage is happening at once. That's an instant of damage. So even if it's, so what about sneak attack? Like let's say it's all happening at once. Okay. So you're weak to slashing and precision. You're weak to slashing and precision.

You're weak to slashing and precision. That's fine. You're weak to slashing and precision. And you're rolling those two different damages twice, but they are saying are combined and they only proc one of those weaknesses, whichever one is greater. Whichever the one is greater. And if they're the same, just proc one of them. Yeah.

You're totally within your right interpretation And what he's saying is you think if the damage is like or you're saying that there's an interpretation with the damages like huh? Huh instead of huh? Yeah. Yeah, come on Trying to lawyer that it's two separate instances of damage. Get the hell out of here players all players not a single GM I know seriously, it's such bullshit Let's get the hell out of here. Players. All players, not a single GM. Dude, I know.

Seriously, it's such bullshit. So I hate players. The only time it could ever be considered two instances of damage is if you take damage from something, like you take a damage from something and then fire explodes off of you. That's two instances of damage. Otherwise, boom, you take the damage. The reason you get critical damage is you're stabbing them in a precise area that hurts. That's one instance of damage. Sure. It's crazy that anyone would think otherwise. It's not that crazy because we're not just talking about like, okay, so here's an argument on the

other side. Let's not say it's sneak attack. Let's say it's they're weak to, oh my God, piercing. They're weak to piercing and cold iron. Okay. They're weak to piercing and cold iron, okay? They're weak to piercing and cold iron. I wanna hear this argument. One interpretation that I really like is, okay, so then the archer in the back that's just firing wooden arrows at this thing is hitting it with the same level of weakness

as the rogue with a cold iron rapier. Like the exact most horrifying weapon this creature could ever face does no more damage to it than an arrow from an archer that's not cold iron. According to the rules, they do not. Oh, I mean, if you're interested in the rules. If your bar is the rules. That uses that exact example.

Yeah, that's funny. But that's there for balance, right? Because otherwise, you know, by end game, when someone's got 14 runes on their weapon that does all these different things that would proc all of those weaknesses, all you need is that one guy to come up. And now I've seen that we've done this. We've done this, I think, more so in Strange Ions than in Gatewalkers where Ethel will use something. I'm giving him both weaknesses.

I think Skid with his bombs, poor Aldo's all over the place. We need Professor Eric to just do an Aldo episode. Skid's doing electricity and blah, blah, blah damage and I'm giving him the damage for both and Ethel. So like, you know, I'm glad that we were corrected on this, but yeah, those are one instance of damage. Get out of here, you players. Get out of here, you players and your ideas.

All right, one more thing I'll say on this before we exunt We Are Stupid is deafened and spellcasting. If you become deafened as a caster, Professor Eric lays out a phenomenal six point argument that explains why when you are deafened as a caster you have no penalty to casting So we were kind of playing it as a DC five flat check because Why do we make that up? It's here's the deafened if you perform an action that has the auditory trait You must succeed at a DC five flat check or the action is lost

Attempt the check after spending the action but before the effects are applied. However, when he defines auditory action, he said auditory actions are effects that rely on sound. An action with the auditory trait can be successfully performed only if the creature using the action can speak or otherwise produce the sounds. A spell or effect with the auditory trait has its effect only if the target can hear it. The target can hear it, which is an interesting thing. A spell with the auditory trait, the target has to be able to hear, or it doesn't take

any damage, or it's not affected by it. If deafened target can be buffed against spells with an auditory trait, which is interesting. So basically he says, so you have to speak the magic words, but you don't have to be able to hear them. And it's not assumed that you would mumble or garble them by the rules. So no flat check is needed to cast spells while deafened. The auditory trait is more about the target than about the caster. And just to, and just compared to silence and he goes into silence, the target than about the caster. And just to compare and just compared to silence

and he goes into silence, the target can't use sonic attacks nor can it use auditory actions blah, blah, blah, blah. Notice how it adds the explicit restriction on casting spell. Oh, it says, I'm sorry. This also prevents the target from casting spells due to the magical words involved in the casting. Notice how it adds the explicit restriction on casting spells on top of forbidding auditory, adding more weight to spells that aren't auditory by default. So basically, silence, you would not be able to cast. If you are deafened, there's nothing in the rules that says you can't cast as normal. Unless the spell has the auditory trait, which-

No, no, no. A spell with the auditory trait which no no no a spell with the auditory trait He says in the auditory trait it says an action with the auditory trait can be successfully performed only if the creature using the action can speak or Otherwise produce the required sounds it doesn't say you have to be able to hear your own sounds That's interesting So then how do you reconcile if you perform an action that has the auditory trait, like casting a spell with the auditory trait, you must succeed at a flat check or that action

is lost? How do you reconcile that? This is what he's saying. This is different from the sound based parts of the effect as determined by the GM. This is different from the sonic effect, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, perform an action that has the auditory trait, you must succeed at a DC-5 flat check or the action is lost. Yeah.

I don't know. The only thing I can think of is like, do spells have the auditory trait? Are there spells that have the auditory trait? Maybe it's that the action isn't the spell. The action is casting and the casting action doesn't have the auditory trait. That's the only reason I could think that you wouldn't have to do it. But otherwise, that kind of flies in the face a little bit of, unless I'm misunderstanding that.

Yeah. No, I agree with you. So like I'd love some more input on that professor. Like I said, some of this stuff I would love to talk to him about. I just didn't have time before we had to record this, but let let's do some quick Let's do some quick listener mail and we got to get gone Sing us in Nicholas All right, this one from Jamie in Denver. Hey, Joe and Troy, I was listening to an old thought about how difficult it was to come up with fake information when players critically fail recall knowledge checks.

And I wanted to share my solution. I think this is interesting. During prep, I pick a vaguely similar a vaguely similar, but mechanically different monster for each creature that they'll face, say an earth elemental, if they're going to face a clay golem. If they crit fail, I just give them information from the other stat block. That's fun. Yeah. That is pretty interesting.

It's like, and usually it makes narrative sense to the players too, so they believe it like immediately because it's like a similar creature. Anyway, I thought that was a fun one. That's fun. All right, let's get to one question question from Elias or Dr. sus in Berlin, Massachusetts. Do you know Berlin? When I don't know a city like that, I'm like, Oh, Western Mass, which is basically Connecticut. So Western Mass, Berlin, I'm assuming I'm going to learn about MA on math. Yeah, Berlin, Berlin, I'm assuming. I'm going to learn right now. On mass. Yeah. Berlin, Berlin, Berlin, Massachusetts. It's coming up and without even knowing. What the fuck is it? Oh, it's kind of central mass. But come on. It's near, it's near Marlboro. That's basically Western mass.

People from Boston think everything west of Boston is Western mass. It's north of West. Yeah, come on. It's Western mass. Nobody was arguing. I always say like our buddy Nick Stevens grew up in like south of Boston in, where the fuck, basically like not Braintree or like south. The way we look at it, like if you're from the North Shore, it's like, oh, so you grew up in Cape Cod. If you're south of Boston, you basically live in Cape Cod. You basically live in Cape Cod.

We don't take it seriously. All right. Dr. Sus from Berlin, Mass. Hi Troy. I ran into you and Matthew briefly in the TSA line at Indianapolis after Gen Con. I remember this guy. Yeah. I travel a lot for work too. And after a long trip, I generally want nothing to do

with work people or clients. So I didn't bother striking up a conversation. Shut up. How do you feel about fan interactions after a burnout week like Gen Con when you're just trying to get home? Finally, a huge thank you and a great job to the entire cast and crew for Gen Con. I had an amazing time and all the GCN shows and nation interactions were top notch. Well, thank you, Dr. Sus. That's awesome. I put this I picked this question out and put it in here because I just wanted to say, I 100% feel you. It's not like I would ever be irritated at a fan interaction after Gen Con. It's not that but I will say, ever be irritated at a fan interaction after Gen Con. It's not that. But I will say, man, in my working days, when I left the office, if somebody in my office just walked up next to me

at the subway terminal right before getting on the train that was going to ride all the way home with me, I'd be like, no! I hated it. I just want to be alone after a day of work. I just want to read my book. It's different now. It was just read my book then. But yeah. Yeah, it's different now. I'm never bothered by it. That's amazing. Everyone is very respectful of our time and whatnot. Oh, totally.

They get it. They don't get like clingers that like say hello and then walk with you for an hour and a half. That can be a little much but yeah, you know, it's funny somebody emailed me a Reddit post because I know that I'm not on there anymore about a photo that somebody took on the last day of Gen Con where like we're all pretty beat up and every and you're like smiling and skin is Skid is smiling and I'm just sitting there like this. I look miserable, but I had a toothpick in my mouth because I had just eaten something. I didn't want the toothpick to fall out of my mouth, so I'm just like— It just looks like I'm miserable, but nothing could be further from the truth. I love it.

Gen Con was the best. You ever see us? Please, there isn't a single one of us that wouldn't be gracious. Oh, yeah. It would be awesome. Even after Gen Con, it makes no difference. It's so awesome to see people and to just have- It's starting to see people out in the world now too, which is kind of crazy. Yeah, it is. It's crazy and really awesome. Sydney just mentioned it the other day when we were recording. She mentioned a story where she just got on a subway and somebody walked on this subway car, pulled out an AirPod. It was just like, love your podcast. They just kept walking. I was like, that's so awesome. Yeah. So those fan interactions are great. I don't mind them at all, I will say I feel you on that like after a day of work Just wanting to like zone out be alone and not like chat with like work people and that's how I do

Exactly and I'm like the most social guy there is I love going out love having a happy hour beer love all that But like when I'm in my commute zone, like when I go to an airport, I'm getting on an airplane I'm not interested in like hanging out. I just want to like zone in said yeah Yeah, it's so funny cuz like that's how I treat you guys, but I would never treat the fans that way We're done recording like see ya and I'm out the door when you go to lunch. You're like where we're all going I'm already at lunch by myself, but yeah fans. I'll talk to you guys all day long. Yeah fans of the best All right. Well, that's gonna do it for this week. Thanks for the for the questions there, Elias. And thanks for the comment, Jamie. That was that was a good one.

I thoroughly enjoyed that one. While we're back, buddy, we got another FOD under in the books. Always a pleasure and looking forward to getting together again next week and talking more about Ember more about some other new stuff that might be coming down the road as well Yes, we can't talk about yet, but hopefully very soon Yeah more to come for sure but until then glass got a podcast watch me stream today at four o'clock Eastern if you haven't already and NFL season is starting up soon. Maybe some more degenerate dungeon. I don't know what's going on dungeon I don't know what's going on. Ball is back baby! Pumpkin Spice! He's alive baby! See you next time. Later.

It's time to make your membership official. Become an official member of the Naish today at jointhenaish.com. That's join the naish.com where you'll get access to exclusive podcasts and live streams you can't find anywhere else. See what everybody's talking about and join the nation today at jointhenation.com.