The Infinite Monkey Cage - Is There Room for Mysticism in a Rational World?

Episode Date: June 27, 2011

Glastonbury SpecialRadio 4's award winning science/comedy show hits Glastonbury to prove that science really is the new rock n roll. Brian Cox and Robin Ince are joined on stage by musicians Billy Bragg and Graham Coxon, comedian Shappi Khorsandi, and scientist Professor Tony Ryan to bring their own brand of rationality and reason to Glastonbury's most hardened new-age followers. Producer: Alexandra Feachem.

In our new podcast, Nature Answers, rural stories from a changing planet, we are traveling with you to Uganda and Ghana to meet the people on the front lines of climate change. We will share stories of how they are thriving using lessons learned from nature. And good news, it is working. Learn more by listening to Nature Answers wherever you get your podcasts. This is a download from the BBC. To find out more, visit bbc.co.uk slash radio4. Ladies and gentlemen, you are about to witness such a fantastic thing.

Please, please, for the Infinite Monkey Cage, please welcome Brian Cox and Robin Hitch with their guest, the last of the YouTube audience! That's not... This isn't very Radio 4, is it? Who's here for particle physics? Yeah, this is the kind of thing that we need. Quantum chromodynamics!

Oh, a lot more over that side. That's quite interesting. Because we're at Glastonbury, we have erected a great rational tent. A solitary place within which the light of reason can burn safely amongst the smouldering rubble of the Enlightenment strewn across the muddy fields outside. My only worry is what they're going to do with that giant wicker Einstein that they're building out the front. So where better to discover science than balancing on a ley line? For this reason, Brian is wearing an azurite crystal,

traditionally the crystal worn to enhance rationalism. So today we ask, is there room for mysticism in a rational world? OK, we'll take a vote early on. Who says yes? Who says no? Wow, the elves are in. Don't forget the wicker Einstein outside. To help us come to some conclusion, we have our largest panel yet. We have four people.

Despite supermarkets currently offering cut-price kindness, this man still has a milk round delivering it, and so he should. He is the milkman of human kindness, but sometimes does confuse shooting stars for just bits of space debris. He is Billy Bragg. stars for just bits of space debris. Here's Billy Bragg. Well, rock and roll and astronomy are closer than you might think. There once was a moon who drove his Rolls Royce into a swimming pool, and our next guest went one better by crashing his song into the surface of Mars at high velocity on Beagle 2. Is there life

on Mars? Not anymore, the hooligan. It's Graham Coxon. Is there life on Mars? Not anymore, the hooligan. It's Graham Coxon. Our next guest is a keen amateur scientist and uses her Twitter account to report reasonable scientific experiments such as three species of mammal have just jumped on my head and also my dog will eat deer poo, but not dog biscuits. We'll be investigating those ideas later on in the show. Keen amateur biologist, comedian Shappi Korsandi.

And finally, we thought we'd better have at least one science guest on, but they're hard to come by at Glastonbury, so we got a chemist. Next best thing is a chemist. Next best is a chemist in the house. No, one. He's Professor of Physical Chemistry at Sheffield University, Professor Tony Ryan, and this is our panel.

I'm glad you asked if there was a chemist in the house, because a lot of these people aren't normally chemists, but over this weekend... We'll start off... Billy, you've been here, I think you've done the most Glastonbury festivals of anyone on this panel. How true do you think it is that Glastonbury deserves this reputation of mysticism and irrationalism

and the idea of naked hippies dancing at the dawn? It's one of the few places you can still get away with that kind of stuff. But there is great science going on here. It's a well-known fact that there are so many people here at Glastonbury, their activities actually generate a condensing cloud over the site that rains continually. Tony, to me, it took thousands of years and the Enlightenment and a great struggle to get us out of the fields and into warm places.

What is it about human beings that brings them back into the field again every June? So I've been thinking about this quite a bit, and I'm going to go home and make a lot of donations to refugee camps, because that's how it feels today. We're getting in touch with how hard it is to live in many parts of the world by being here. Well, can you imagine what my family in Iran think of me coming to Glastonbury and living like this by choice?

I was sitting thinking yesterday how amazing it is and unfathomable it is why so many of us, all of us, group together and come here every year to be entertained and have a good time. And people come here to feel good because everyone, from the moment you arrive, everyone's nice to you. Everyone's nice to each other. And that, I think, comes from somewhere really honest that I can't explain through science or anything like that. But that's the part that I think we miss out on in the rest of our year. So when you say we came out of the field, I kind of think we need to get back in a very honest way

and connect with people that we've never met before but feel like we want to make them happy. Graham, you've done everything at Glastonbury you've headlined Glastonbury but you come back and you discover the rest of the festival is there a big difference between the big commercial pyramid stage stuff and then the stuff around here out on the edges? not really, I've noticed i've done a lot more walking now i'm not headlining and i've got a lot dirtier and um that's that's

about it less helicopters are kind of swishing past and splashing me with mud whereas before i was two years ago i was in that four by four did brian drive past in his four by four because that's that's all he did for the whole of yesterday. He just went round and round and round, not stopping anyway, going, look at me, I've spilt some of my champagne. Feel my pain. Feel my pain. Waving your telescope out the window anyway. Nothing Freudian there, nothing Freudian there.

I think one of the things we were talking about earlier is what Shafi was talking about, great gatherings. You know Stonehenge was built around the solstice, but also was a big excuse for a gathering. There is something going on here where there's a kind of nexus of getting together to get totally out of your head and early, early science. You know, in one of your programmes, there's this fabulous hill in Peru

where they've got 12 or 13 mounds, where they watch the sun go along and then turn around and come back again. They didn't just stand there with clipboards writing it down. They went there and they had a great big festival. And so the whole kind of like spiritual madness, muddy field stuff and the science kind of both

seem to come from the same place. Yeah, Tony, there is a good point there, isn't there? Because I often think that science, mysticism, religion, whichever way you want to look at it, they come from the same place. The first thing you have to do is notice there's something interesting about the world, and then you proceed from there. And when you see the sun breaking through clouds

and those great big shafts of light, it's really obvious why people worship the sun. Well, it's obvious why they used to. There's no excuse for it now, is there? Because we know... Oh, it's obvious why they used to. There's no excuse for it now, is there? Because we know... Oh, it's arrogant Brian Cox yet again. Well, actually, Brian,

I think there is, because we're going to need to keep worshipping the sun, because it's the sun that will get us out of all the problems we're currently in. And I say, I don't mean worship, worship. I mean use the power of the sun, the power of the sun that comes to us every day that we currently ignore because we're too busy

digging up buried sunshine as fossils. I think what you were saying there is quite interesting, that idea of the, because it has been described, Carl Sagan, wonderful Carl Sagan, said that really what science is, is informed worship. So we kind of make that leap. How do you feel, Shappi? You were saying before we went on air that you feel that you're kind of more mystic than rational. Oh, no, I didn't say I'm more mystic than rational. I think I said something along the lines of whatever gets you through the night.

Then you said imagine. Then you said something about a shaved fish. What I find interesting about this, because I do sit between the two, but I find that it's extremely important to have a conversation with science, you know. But if you use the wrong word or the wrong phrase, then the rationalists all dance around you,

pointing their finger in your face and laughing, and that is fanaticism that's no different to religious fanaticism in my book because it's a it shuts down communication and that's no good to anybody that sounds exactly like the socialist workers party actually now you mentioned that they do exactly the same to me whenever i step off the path of righteousness but great graham what what was what was it that brought the band to the scientific community, I suppose, in terms of putting the music on Beagle 2?

Why was it that you decided to do that? We should explain to her a little bit, just the background. Beagle 2 was Britain's mission to Mars, and Graham and Blur as a whole, you had a song on there which was going to be... Well, the first song played on Mars, really, wasn't it? Yeah, it was going to arrive there on wheels on a special sort of little thing, tractor of sorts, and beam the music back.

The use of a tractor to get there was probably the error that we made, actually, in hindsight. Yeah, but, I mean, I don't know the proper term for it. I mean, Cosmo Tractor, I don't know what it was called. But, you know, we made this sort of backing track that was sort of formed through mathematics, I think. I think it was Damon's father who was interested in patterns and mathematics, and he created this sort of pattern that we put to music, and I put loads of sort of heavy guitars on it. Like Paisley?

I think that's why it crashed. Paisley? Not Paisley. Oh. See, I think... I mean, did you feel, when you were working on something like that, did you feel, what Shappi was just saying? Do you find that when you're in an environment with scientists, you feel that you can't say anything?

Shappi sees these images of dancing scientists pointing at people going, ah, you don't understand any equation. I do take seriously anybody who talks about this kind of thing as long as he's got a tweed jacket and a pipe. And then, you know, if it's anything else, then I don't really take it seriously. What are you saying about me, then? Well, I'm sure you've got a tweed jacket and a pipe and then you know if it's anything else then i don't what are you saying about me then you don't listen well i'm sure you've got a couple at

home get them out of an evening yeah but actually we're talking there about the the um the perceived mismatch between science and other ways of looking at the world and a lot of people said to me when you come into glastonbury they they're like you know you are actually going to get put in the wicker einstein and so but but is is that a necessary thing is it inevitable that if you start to try and work out the way that the world works by looking at it carrying out experiments using the scientific method is the necessary conflict well it is if you are an extremist i don't have a problem at all with atheism but I do have a problem with the attitude of anybody who believes in something like a supreme being is stupid. I actually feel that, you know, religion, you know, if people get some comfort from it, that's fine, you know. And also, if you look at science, particularly if you look at science in the absolute maximum,

and you might be able to correct me if I'm wrong here, but currently I understand that scientists believe that the universe is made up of 95% of dark stuff, which we can't see, sniff, touch or feel, but must be there according to your theories. So you're asking us to believe in something intangible and massive, that 95% of the universe is made up of intangibility. Right, if I could just ask the rest of the panellists and myself... If we could just ask the rest of the panellists and myself if we could just

leave the stage and allow Billy and Brian to deal with this in their own method. No, I mean the statement that 95% of the universe and 96% is made of something else is an observational statement. I mean, it's a baffling statement. It would have been

far easier to understand the universe if that had not been the case, but it was observed to be true, so the universe doesn't behave in the way that our theories suggest at the moment. But you believe that, don't you? Well, you have to believe the evidence, because that's what we've measured. Do you have faith in the fact that it's there? This is a good question. Sorry, do you just talk amongst yourselves

over that? I would say, and I'll ask Tony in a moment, but I would say that the absence of a belief system is not a belief system. So science is a system of thought that has no underlying prejudice or bias. Now, that's not to say that scientists don't have belief systems, but science as a process is the absence of a belief system. There are areas of science, and this dark matter issue is an area

where you don't know exactly what's happening, so you have a series of beliefs that explain that, which is what... Theories, yeah. Theories. Well, that's what religious people do. They see the world in a particular way, and they explain it by the existence of a supreme being. Isn't there similarity there? No, the search here, though, is our best theory says the universe should behave like this, and it doesn't behave like our best theory.

And the bit that stops it behaving like our best theory is the missing mass. So we either search for a better theory, which is happening, or we search for the hidden mass, which is happening. It's not a belief system. It's a belief in looking for evidence. belief system, it's a belief in looking for evidence. Well, some people, some people, they see in human nature, they see the divine, and they can't explain it, they can't, they can't, well, it may be so, it may indeed, it may indeed be, as you say, sir, just saying to cast the idea of believing in something

more powerful and bigger than yourself completely out there and saying that's completely wrong and putting those people in the wicker man. When science itself is asking us to believe in things we can't see, touch, feel or smell, I find there's a slight problem there. Isn't that... Hang on, hang on, I'll go to Shafi.

I have to say, I was raised in an atheist household, OK? But I would like to just point out that hundreds and thousands of addicts and alcoholics who haven't been free of their addiction through drugs or therapy, so psychology or medicine, but they do the 12-step programme. And the 12-step program is about putting your faith into a higher power. And I've seen atheists in programs like that have years and years and years

of abstinence from drugs and alcohol. And if we don't believe that, that's fine. But to shout at people that do is what I'm talking about, extremism and fanaticism. Can I... I'm just going to congratulate Shappi for, at the Glastonbury Festival, bringing up the 12-step programme. Never have people been so far away from the 12-step programme. It is just a way of saying

that you're not the centre of the universe, being a selfish idiot. But I'm wondering, can you worship this mass we're talking about? Can you pray to the mass without the danger of becoming a progressive rocker? Which I'd quite like to be. So may I worship it?

And also, aren't you, I mean, it started out being dark matter and that didn't quite fit. So then you invented dark force. What's next, dark chocolate? Where are you going to go with this dark thing? No, but this is evidence for dark chocolate. Thank God.

Definitely evidence. Thank God. Where would we be without chocolate at Glastonbury? This is the point to me, though, because the point about science is to explore the unknown. So by definition, you're operating on the edge of the known and the unknown, and that's how you progress. So that's the place that scientists gravitate to. So what I would say about what I would define as a faith-based position is perhaps the way that

you defined it, which is I tend to see an extremist point of view, where you just see the unknown and you guess, because essentially that's based on a fear of the unknown, whereas science is a rather different discipline because it's based on going to the place where your knowledge stops. So the key point is that there's no belief there, that there's just a recognition that something doesn't fit and therefore an interest in going and trying to find out what's happening. And you always have to test.

You always have to test. And all we're doing is continuing to test the boundary. That's happening. And you always have to test. You always have to test. And all we're doing is continuing to test the boundary. That's all. Sounds lonely. And the press appears all the time. Graham, if we go back to the Beagle 2 landing, because Blur for a

time became the band that you hung around with scientists, like you were in Mission Control, weren't you, at the landing. So how was that experience of being the science poster boys for a while? Well, I used to meet these LearnEd people through Alex, our bass player, and Alex was quite obsessed with textbooks, but I preferred painters and decorators, because I thought their philosophy on life was a little more to the point, I could get hold of that a little bit more. So you think painters and decorators because I thought their philosophy on life was a little more to the point. I could get hold of that a little bit more. Do you think painters and decorators are more rational and logical than scientists?

Absolutely. Because you can't argue with natural calico. It is what it is. That's the colour. But I'll tell you something. What I'm finding really exciting and really interesting with this programme and you guys and the fact that this tent at Glastonbury is rammed is this...

This interest in science. I wish it... Because it was taught so badly in my school. And I'm very excited that we're now in a sphere where you're a superstar, Professor Brian Cox, and you work with... It's great! And also...

The evil Knievel. And he's a comedian, and I think comedians... No, you're... Comedians and scientists coming together like that and popularising, talking about all this is brilliant. It makes me want to go and kiss tree bark. Which is a very good cure, actually, for insomnia. In fact, later on, because there are so many people here,

we're going to divide the audience and play a game of British Bulldog, because so far CERN hasn't come up with the answer in terms of clashing particles, but we believe there are enough people here that if you run fast enough, we will find the matter that made the universe, and that will make Billy very happy.

Or just chuck him some chocolate, one or the other, we found out. Billy, we were talking earlier, actually. You'd said to me that you think, actually, your science teacher may have been good at school, but you had such a lack of interest in it... Yeah, unfortunately, I was the wrong age for physics. We had a great science... Mr Turner, the Bunsen burner, was a great guy, and he once did a... We came into a physics. We had a great science, Mr Turner the Bunsen Burner was a great guy.

And he once did a, we came into a physics, he was a physics teacher, we came into his lesson and he'd written the lyrics from a Bob Dylan song on the blackboard and proceeded to do the entire lesson based around the lyrics of this song. And I was such a snotty nose little 14 year old of course, I didn't take any notice of this. And I wish

now I had paid attention. Not only for the Bob Dylan but also for the physics to get an understanding of a little bit more of these things I'm still baffled whether or not it's true that the water in Australia goes down the plug hole the opposite way Brian does it?

you've been there it's a very subtle effect usually the way it rotates is just the way that you take the plug out because that overwhelms any small... Well, surely the water goes down the plug hole in the opposite way to which the earth is rotating, doesn't it? No, it's not that simple.

So the deal is, it's all about breaking the symmetry. So you have to break the symmetry of the floor, and that's a really important thing to know here. Because how many people have pulled their foot out of their wellies by lifting their foot up directly? Well, that's because if you lift your foot up directly,

you're doing an extensional flow. And the force is three times bigger than if you twist when you're doing a sheer flow. So if you want to walk safely in mud, you have to mince. You've got to twist. to mince. OK? You've got to twist.

So I want to see all of you mincing out of here, going, sheer flow is easier than extensional flow. There you go, you see, physics is about the origin and evolution of the universe, the movement of galaxies, chemistry is about why you mince in mud. And which one is the most practical currently? As we see you walking through the mud in your socks, cursing,

we'll realise you didn't listen to the physical chemist. You'd only be to a Land Rover anyway. So do you think sometimes there is room for mysticism as well as rationalism in terms of getting through your life? We were talking before about coping mechanisms, and I quite like it. I'm an atheist as well, but sometimes I watch atheists there drinking heavily and smoking and going, isn't it pathetic, people need a coping mechanism,

oh, we've run out of whiskey. As I did last night. The first person to ever notice that the moon affected the tide was a monk called the Venerable Bead. He was working at Monk... Venerable Bead fans in the audience. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he's playing at the Vortex stage on Sunday night. He didn't get down there. You say Venerable, I say Bead. Venerable. Bead. Venerable. Bead. Love this show.

Anyway, he was a monk, and he was trying to work out the proper date for Easter, which you may or may not know is based on the phases of the moon. And while he was doing it at Monk Weirmouth, he also noticed that when the moon was full, the tide was right up. And when the moon was full, the tide was right up. And when the moon was gone, the tide was right out. And the more he did it, the more he noticed. And eventually, he worked out that actually the moon somehow, he didn't know how, but the moon was having an effect on the tide.

So here's a piece of really primal, you know, this is the 7th, 8th century science, based, but coming from religious observance. There is that overlap. Well, yeah, observation of nature. The heart of science. But how does that sit with things can only get better? Things... Basically, it says that everything decays,

doesn't it, basically? If I understand your fabulous programme exactly, it says that everything decays, doesn't it? Things can only get better is flat wrong. It violates the second law of thermodynamics and it should never have been written. Well done, mate.

Well done. To be fair, you didn't write that one, did you? You wrote a song called Things Are Going Downhill All The Way It's A Disaster, which didn't chart. Mine was called Entropy Always Increases, but Labour didn't want to use that one. We're heading towards the end of our time, unfortunately.

But I want to go round the panel and ask a final question to everybody, which is, because we're here at Glastonbury, this is, I think, perhaps the first time that such an event has been held, science in this form. So can science, I'll start with Billy, can science become a regular part of Glastonbury, do you think? Well, the people have spoken, Billy, you accept their word. I think anybody who has used the ablutions here at Glastonbury would hope that science will become... I don't know if you know this, you may not have read this,

but there was a plan to analyse the effluent from Glastonbury this year for traces of drugs. It was in yesterday's paper, but EVIS wouldn't allow them to do it because then they'd know why his cows are so hyperproductive. Tony? then they'd know why his cows are so hyperproductive. Tony. So for me, Glastonbury could have never existed without science. There'd be no electric guitars, no amplification, no lights, no chemical toilets. All of those are the benefits of people being scientists and making observations.

That's actually... You've prefigured. You've guessed my next show. It's Wonders of the Chemical Toilet. BBC budgets are falling. So I'll do that for you. Chappie. That was a beautiful answer. I can't top that other than to say it absolutely has a place in Glastonbury

because, like I said before, just the sheer scale of people in this tent shows that it's something that we're fascinated by and interested in and it's a beautiful thing something that we're fascinated by and interested in and it's a beautiful thing science is a beautiful thing and uh you know i only hope this many people come to my show tomorrow at 905 oh um yeah yeah i think there should be lectures i think there should be um this is great it's all clean and um i do have about... I collect Harris Tweed jackets, so I've got about 30. One would fit you. And I think so long as there's a pipe and a Tweed jacket,

I'll take it seriously. Do you think we can do the Pyramid stage in two years' time in Sweden? Yeah. I think so. Quantum electrodynamics, a big blackboard, that's all you need. That is a wonderful thing to imagine. Now we have to finish because Brian's actually agreed to go and play keyboards with the Wurzels. But unfortunately it's in 1987,

so it does require his wormhole working. Hopefully he'll get there in time. Thank you to Billy Bragg, Shabby Core Sandy, Graham Cox and Tony Ryan. Graham Cox and Tony Ryan. Now, now, because this is Glastonbury, because this is Glastonbury, we can't end the programme without a song.

In my opinion, it's not even in my opinion, it is true, the Apollo moon landing is one of the greatest of all human achievements, one of the few times in history when we did something, as Kennedy said, not because it's easy, but because it's hard. And I've got to say, the main reason my wife married me was she found someone who was almost as obsessed by the Apollo moon landings as she is, and she introduced me to this song. It's one of, I think, a song that expresses

the reason we do Infinite Monkey Cage better than any other. This is Billy Bragg with The Space Race Is Over. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE with The Space Race is over. APPLAUSE Armstrong and Aldrin spoke to me From Houston and Cape Kennedy And I watched the eagle land in On the night when the moon was full And as it tugged at the tide I knew that deep inside I too could feel its pull

I lie on my bed and dreamed I walked In a sea of tranquility And I knew that someday soon We'd all sail to the moon on the high tide of technology but the dreams have all been

taken and the window seats taken too and 2001 already been and gone what am I supposed to do? Now that the space race is over It's been and it's gone

And I'll never get to the moon Now that the space race is over And I can't help but feel That we've all grown up too soon. Now my dreams have all been shattered And my wings are tattered too And I can still fly But not half as high as once I wanted to Now that the space race is over,

it's been and it's gone, and I'll never get to the moon. Now that the space race is over, and I can't help but feel that we've all grown up too soon My son and I stand beneath the great night sky We gaze up in wonder

Tell him the tale of Apollo He says, tell me the truth, Dad Why did I ever go? It may look like some empty gesture To go all that way just to come back But don't offer me a place out inside the space Cause we're in the hells

that I had. Now that the space race is over it's been and it's gone and I'll never get out of my room. Now that the space race is over and I

can't help but feel that we're all just going nowhere. If you've enjoyed this programme, you might like to try other Radio 4 podcasts, including Start the Week, lively discussions chaired by Andrew Marr, and a weekly highlight from Radio 4's evening arts programme, Front Row. To find out more, visit bbc.co.uk slash radio4. In our new podcast, Nature Answers, Rural Stories from a Changing Planet, we are travelling with you to Uganda and Ghana to meet the people on the front lines of climate change.

We will share stories of how they are thriving using lessons learned from nature. And good news, it is working. Learn more by listening to Nature Answers wherever you get your podcasts. As women, our life stages come with unique risk factors, like high blood pressure developed during pregnancy, which can put us two times more at risk of heart disease or stroke. Know your risks.