The Infinite Monkey Cage - The Infinite Monkey’s Guide to... Being Human

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

Brian Cox and Robin Ince consider the quirks that make human beings unique and check in with experts from The Infinite Monkey Cage back catalogue. Prof Alice Roberts explains that our ancestors interbred with Neanderthals to make us who we are today. We’re also excellent at communicating with other species, as comedian Bill Bailey learns when he gets a lesson in chimp speak from the legendary primatologist Dr Jane Goodall. Then there are the bits of us that are pretty different, like our large brains and Conan O’Brien says his has been wired for comedy. Everyone agrees natural selection hasn’t always equipped us with the best tools for the job and David Baddiel argues the eye is a perfect example of a human design flaw.Episodes featured: The Infinite Monkey Cage 100 Series 22: When the Monkeys met the Chimps Series 22: The Human Brain Series 19: Are Humans Still Evolving?New episodes will be released on Wednesdays, but if you’re in the UK, listen to new episodes, a week early, first on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3K3JzyProducer: Marijke Peters Executive Producer: Alexandra Feachem

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Brian Cox. I'm Robin Ince and this is the Infinite Monkeys Guide To. Today is a very important episode and it's especially for Brian because it's the Infinite Monkeys Guide to Being Human. Now this is something that has fascinated Brian for many, many years, ever since he discovered that he only ever dreams about electric sheep.

What makes a human being different from other beings? Is it because we place being after the word human because there's something we experience in terms of knowing that we exist because we don't say the giraffe being or the daffodil being or the haddock being we say the human being does a daffodil dream of electric bees electric bees that's a lovely idea isn't it anyway so there we go that's brian's new book do daffodils dream of electric bees and another 99 philosophical quandaries uh strawberries we dealt with strawberries strawberries are done mate so i suppose the first thing we should look at is for a long time human beings were just oh we're homo sapiens and maybe maybe a very occasional human being has a little bit of neanderthal this is the problem with those series like who do you think you are because they don't go far enough back yeah i don't want to know

about some some scullery maid who had a sad life or some kind of top hat maker who ended up with syphilis in my family tree no everyone should be the same answer the end of every single episode of who do you think you are luca yeah that would be great yeah the last universal common ancestor by definition the trouble for that is that then when you have a wedding you have to invite so many people and not just people you've got to invite the giraffe you've got to invite the daffodil like the whole thing yeah and a lot of slime and that's terrible to go down the aisle when the aisle's slimy. Everyone in the congregation, you are related at a fundamental level to single-celled organisms in the font.

That's what you can say. Yeah. With certainty. Again, I've found most of the weddings that you have actually led as a humanist celebrant have ended very quickly in divorce. Yeah. There's something very bleak about your messy font outlook.

It's not bleak. Isn't it magnificent that every living thing on the planet is related to every other living thing on the planet I don't know because we've all got some relatives we'd rather we weren't related to anyway we're going to go off now to somewhere totally different in terms of our human beingness

and that is the fact that rather than being total homo sapiens which for a long time was the belief that we're homo sapiens, and maybe, maybe, maybe just occasionally there is a little bit of Neanderthal information within an occasional human being, well, all of that changed less than 20 years ago. Here is anthropologist Alice Roberts

with comedian Dave Gorman and writer Andy Hamilton talking about our Neanderthal heritage. In 2010 we had the publication of the Neanderthal genome and suddenly we saw in the DNA that there was this clear evidence for interbreeding with Neanderthals. So I'm about 2.7% Neanderthal, you'll have quite a bit of Neanderthal in you, everyone's got a bit of Neanderthal in them and then there's other species we don't really know what they look like there's there's ones uh called the denisovans we just know them from a couple of teeth and a finger bone but we've got a whole genome so they're another population and again we interbred with them and they interbred with some

other archaic hominins so there was just we just really weren't clear about the level of shenanigans that went on in human evolution and now we are did we know that different species coexisted and we just thought they hadn't interbred yeah we did yeah that seems to me to be what proves you don't know my mate barry because the minute you go yeah they were all around at the same time i'm assuming as a lay person and they were obviously getting it on, because some blokes will anything. Well, I think... The thing is... I don't think it's just blokes, though.

Well, no, obviously. But the weird thing is that this kind of came as a bit of a revelation, and I think maybe we're just all a bit prudish about human evolution, but it came as a revelation for humans, and then, surprise, surprise, every single other species that we've looked at in this way, where we've been able to look across the whole genome and go, right, did you interbreed with anything else along the way? They all did. So

dogs interbred with wolves, apples interbred with crab apples so badly that they're more crab apple than original apple now. Oh, you've ruined cider, haven't you? What I love is the way this is kind of demolishing the model i grew up with which was the model was that homo sapiens had been this sort of cheeky chappy ducker and diver

and and we had out-competed the neanderthals possibly by murdering them which is textbook out-competing um but it now looks like presumably what we're saying is that there was a kind of absorption of populations, there was a lot of interbreeding, possibly in the face of a lot of parental objection. Your father doesn't want you going out with a Neanderthal, he says they're grunters. But that is what we're talking about, isn't it?

And it means there was there's no such thing you know all those people who get so angry out there about racial purity you know in a way what this is illustrating is there is no purity everything's a mash-up i'm probably fooling myself they'll probably get more angry won't they they'll probably go marching around saying there are people in this country walking our streets who aren't even our species that's probably what will happen. We always hope that the show can teach you skills that will be really useful in the field, whether that field is full of strawberry bushes or electromagnetism or both.

So get ready to écouter et répéter as we offer you a special language course and not just the kind of humdrum, some human language from somewhere else in the world. and not just the kind of humdrum some human language from somewhere else in the world we're going to teach you a little bit of chimpanzee with primatologists Kat Hobater and Jane Goodall and comedian Bill Bailey. What I've spent most of my work studying is their gestures their non-verbal communication and the reason that I find that so fascinating is that for me a lot of the vocalizations are about this sort of broadcast. I'm hungry. I'm frightened. Hello. It's broadcasting of emotion. But what they do with their gestures, with these ways in which they move their body,

is all of the little subtleties of the day to day. It's asking for something. It's saying, come here, groom me, let's go. Let's be friends or get lost, go away, stop stealing my food. All of these... That's the one. I have to apologise. Apologise at the silverback. He's told me not to. It's just so wonderful for the radio listeners.

There's a sign language conversation going on between Jane and Kat now, which is fabulous. I'd like to do an impression. Phil's having to teach me how to do a good impression. That's what I really want to do. Like that. Well, Bill, why don't you give us what you've got, your best pant hint so far.

Like that's me just sort of saying hello. But would it be? Right. So, Jane, are you able to pick up on where Bill's getting it right and where he's getting it wrong? Again, for the radio listeners, that was still Bill, the loud... Do you know what? It really was still Bill. Even the radio listeners go, that's definitely the sound of Bill. That's still Bill. Right, now let's get the translation. Jane, what do you interpret Bill was attempting to say?

Well, I think at this point I need to say that every chimpanzee has a different voice. So we'll let Bill communicate in Bill's way. It doesn't mean we have to necessarily understand it. Yes, thanks, Jane. This is like, it's a great news for the comedy clubs there, isn't it? We didn't have a clue what Bill was doing, but we allowed him to do the show anyway. It was fine. I was doing a bit of new material. Could you perhaps teach Bill a greeting or a phrase or an authentic, a more authentic sound. Well, I mean, the close-up greeting is very, very easy. And it's just...

That's right, like a pant. Yeah. And then the one we did before. Go away. Get lost. I can do that. Yeah, go away. And what about hello, good evening? Or hello, what's a greeting? Well, I did the greeting. A classic greeting. I can do that. Yeah, go away. And what about hello, good evening?

Or hello, what's a greeting? Well, I did the greeting. A classic greeting. I started the greeting, didn't I? Oh, yeah. People always forget that they mustn't take a breath. It's all one breath. Okay, I'll try that again.

OK, I'll try that again. I'm sort of getting there. You see, look, it's responding. All the audience are responding in the chimp. I've got to say, that is one of my favourite clips of all time. I've just enjoyed, one, to have someone like Jane Goodall on the show, someone who has changed so much of our understanding of what it is to be a chimpanzee and what it is to be a human being. But the excitement of just watching her explain to Bill

where he was going wrong. And just, I have to say, of all the shows we've done, that was one of those ones where you just go, wow, there's a huge amount of love here in terms of the scientific ideas that have been explored and their possibilities. It's the Reithian ideal writ large, isn't it? Bill Bailey being taught chimpanzee by Jane Goodall.

We need to follow up and see if he's remembered all those lessons. Yeah. Ask Brian about the brains of comedians, and he'll say they're all broken, but I think that's just based on the anecdotal evidence of the fact that he's had to work with me for about 15 years. Thank you for that. Yes, Brian. Anyway, here is Conan O'Brien on the theory of his own mind. Conan, this shows about our brain and how it changes through our lives. You've got this tremendously diverse life.

I mean, your dad was a well-known scientist at Harvard, mum's an attorney, studied history of literature at Harvard, then went into comedy writing, wrote for The Simpsons, Saturday Night Live now, talk shows. Do you feel, and this is not meant to sound as insulting as it does when I read it back, actually, but do you feel your brain has changed throughout your life? Whenever people preface anything with, I don't mean this to sound as insulting as it does, people preface anything with, I don't mean this to sound as insulting as it does, it's time to leave the podcast. I'm not implying there's been a downhill trajectory. No, no, no, no, no. Of course. We all know that people only get better with age, Brian. Everything gets better. Yes, I can smell the synapses rotting. I can smell my reaction time slowing occasionally. But I will say that many things have

stayed the same throughout my life. And my father once observed, he looked at me and he said this, not intending to be funny, but he looked, and this is after I'd had a very successful career. He said, I see what you're doing. You're making a career off of something that should probably be treated. And he was sincere. And it hurt my feelings terribly. But then I realized, I think he's got a point. My synapses make connections. I think it's a mistake. I think there's something wrong with me sometimes.

And that produces an effect where other people giggle. And then I realized there's something probably wrong with me. I don't think I could have survived in any other time or place, but it's lucrative. Now, there are those that complain that there are parts of the human body that are badly designed. They're not because they weren't designed. So stop complaining.

Yeah, it's an interesting thing, isn't it? When you actually look at natural selection, that it's not perfect. and if it was perfect, then that would actually bring in probably more issues about the problems of nature. I like the idea of people complaining about it. Dear BBC, I wish to complain about natural selection. Yeah, my eye is far too squishy. I'm very, very angry about it. I have a blind spot. Who is responsible for that?

Also, the other day I was hurdling, and I managed to land with my legs either side of the hurdle and I can tell you now, they should have been put somewhere else. It was very painful. And now with the new guidelines, we have to reply going, thank you for your cooperation rather than shut up. Despite natural selection seeming to seek out the least

worst option. Seeming is very important there because there's no teleology in natural selection anyway i just want to caveat what i love is the way that you really read the bold font when it's there don't you it's here it's written but i don't like the way it's written but i'm going to read it anyway despite natural selection seeming to seek out the least worst option rather than the best geneticist adam rutherford still feels that nature could have done a better job, as he explained to David Baddiel. I'm Adam Rutherford and I'm a geneticist and I

think that the most remarkable thing about evolution is just how bad it is at designing, well, humans. You know, 97% of all species are already extinct extinct that is not a good track record and we have back pain our retinas are the wrong way around childbirth really hurts i'm i understand i don't i don't i know i'm not supposed to interject immediately but i don't agree with the bit about retinas being the wrong way around because i read that there was because an octopus is the other way around of course but i read read that it was likely that the blood supply to our retina, being wired allegedly the wrong way around, so we have a blind spot,

actually allows us to recover from our night vision when we get bright lights and things like that. Do you know this is exactly what my PhD was actually in? Is that not correct? Anyway, well, you two... Not really. Let them keep talking, we fade the mics down, it was actually in. Is that not correct? Anyway, well, you two... Let's move on to the... Not really. Let them keep talking. We fade the mics down.

It's absolutely fine. The blood supply actually ends up... And our other guests are, while they continue talking, because once they get on to retinas and octopi, you'll find that Brian just won't shut up. Actually, I've got a thought about eyes. Well, introduce who you are. We don't know who you are yet.

I'm David Baddiel. I'm a comedian and writer. I know you haven't spoken yet. Do you want to speak? We can change the order. It's not a problem. We have a woman being allowed to speak on this programme. So, Sasha warned me that this programme could be a little chaotic. I didn't think it would go off script before we finished introducing everybody, but anyway...

The trouble is, you need to be on a script before you can go off it now this is the mistake we made okay so i'm Aoife MacLeysett and i'm a professor in genetics in trinity college dublin where i work in molecular evolution and the thing that i find most fascinating about human evolution is how we have evolved the ability to have complex communication so we can do things like this and we can develop ideas over generations and generations things that are difficult and tricky like evolution hello i'm david patil and i'm a comedian and writer and uh the most remarkable i would say and perhaps the best feature of human evolution is that it has proved conclusively that apes are our cousins and yet

we still don't have to have them over at Christmas. Yes, of course. No, no, no, no. Now we've removed your sense of structure. Can I say something about the eye? Because that's interesting. The eye is very structured. Because whenever you see creationists banging on about how evolution versus intelligent design,

blah, blah, blah, they always bring up the eye. Don't they? They always say, oh, the eye, the human eye is so extraordinary, it could never have developed without intelligent design. And what I always want to put to them when they say that is glasses. Right? The all-powerful

creator had to rely on the divine intervention of spec savers. Right? So it feels to me like the eye clearly wasn't designed to be the best thing it could possibly be. At the end of every episode, we've always asked our studio audience for their opinion. Big mistake, by the way.

Well, let's find out how much of a mistake it was, because there were many, many answers to the question, what trait would you most like humans to evolve? And here is one of them. This goes to the heart of our evolution at the moment and our response to technology. I like this. An eye on the base of the chin

so we can look at our phones while pretending to pay attention to it. The Infinite Monkey Cage episodes we took all of these clips from are available on BBC Sounds and the Infinite Monkey Cage back catalogue. Next week it's an Infinite Monkey's guide to infinity.

It's going to go on for ages that. Oh yeah, but however long it goes on for, there is another possibility of an infinite one that could have gone on for even longer. In the infinite monkey cage Without your trousers In the infinite monkey cage Turned out nice again. I hope you enjoyed our podcast. Here's another one you might enjoy as well.

Hi, I'm Helen Lewis and I want to tell you about a podcast I've made for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. It's called The New Gurus and it's about how everywhere you look on the internet, people are giving advice. Advice they claim will transform your life. Advice that gets them thousands, no, millions of devoted followers. These online prophets are telling us how to eat, how to think, how to get rich, how to find love,

how to manage our time. These are the new gurus. Just as people will say the Protestant Reformation and the printing press went hand in hand, so too did this birth of the new internet culture really give rise to this new religious landscape. Subscribe now to The New Gurus on BBC Sounds. Mix is extra at Participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply.