The Infinite Monkey Cage - The Infinite Monkey's Guide To… Gardening

Episode Date: April 10, 2024

Robin Ince and Brian Cox dig into the secret lives of plants to discover that there’s more going on in your average garden than you might at first think. They hear why trees are better than humans at re-growing broken bits, while comedian Ed Byrne reveals a surprising understanding of horticulture, despite dropping out of his university degree early. And while they’re still no closer to discovering if they’re alive or dead, the team find a new debate to have about strawberries, as they argue with forensic botanist Dr Mark Spencer over whether they should be classified as an invasive species. But what about other common pests? Phill Jupitus tells them about an intimate encounter with grey squirrel, and entomologist Erica McAllister puts up a strong defence of the mosquito, claiming they don’t deserve such a bad reputation.New episodes will be released on Wednesdays. If you’re in the UK, listen to the full series on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3K3JzyFProducer: Marijke Peters Executive Producer: Alexandra FeachemEpisodes featured: Series 11: What’s the Point of Plants? Series 18: Invasion! Series 23: Bats v Flies

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon Pull-Apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey, and just five bucks with a small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. As women, our life stages come with unique risk factors. Like when our estrogen levels drop during menopause, causing the risk of heart disease to go up.

Know your risks. Visit heartandstroke.ca. You're about to listen to an episode of the Infinite Monkey's Guide To. Episodes will be released on Wednesdays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to new episodes first on BBC Sounds. I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. And this is The Infinite Monkey's Guide to... Gardening.

Gardening. Finally, after love and murder, we just... It's lovely now. We're back in the garden. We're surrounded by the beautiful flowers. There's not going to be a lot of pragmatic advice. No, I'll be honest with you. We've left that to Gardner's

Question Time. I could have been the new Alan Titchmarsh, you know. Yeah, well, you were offered it and you said no, didn't you? I know, he's got me to thank for that career. Yeah, he was first choice for Alan Titchmarsh, but eventually they gave it to Alan Titchmarsh. It was going to be Alan Titchmarsh's Wonders of the Solar System, and it was

going to be me on Gardner's Question Time. You've both got that northern sense of wonder, haven't you? Yeah. Anyway, it was going to be me on gardener's question time you've both got that northern sense of wonder haven't you yeah yeah anyway we're going to skimp on the information that you'd have on gardener's question time but not skimp on the information on the quantum behavior of croquet that's the only sport that you like isn't it oh no i like i like watching darts and i like snooker i like any of the solitary games i like the games with existential anxiety in them talking with existential anxiety in them talking about existential anxiety we're also going to talk about the immortality of mixed fruits as many people listening may know and if you don't know the mortality of immortality of fruits has

been like a stick of rock it's run through all 29 series imagine facing if you were a fruit you'd have to face wouldn't you the existential challenge of immortality. To a blackberry that has seen so much life and so much death and so many of its friends turned into jam, I think it would actually be a terrible tragedy to be an immortal blackberry. I think it would. Brian has been very much looking forward to today's episode as there is nothing he likes more on a Sunday morning

than popping on his Wellington boots, rolling up his sleeves and then watching his gardener clear the ivy of his statue of Tycho Brahe that's mounted in his rose garden while he sips a little Montrachet and goes, you've left a bit near the nose. Yeah, and actually the nose is gold on my statue. Yeah. Solid gold.

Well, we start with horticultural comedian Ed Byrne finding out what really defines a plant from plant scientist Jane Langdale. I think we can say that a plant is a multicellular organism that is in the lineage most closely related to green algae. I'm surprised it's that complicated a definition, really. What do you want to say? Something that's alive that's not an animal. No, I was going to say that. It's not an animal. It's not a fungus. So it? Something that's alive that's not an animal. No, I was going to say that.

It's not an animal, it's not a fungus. It's not a virus. So it's not a fungus, it's not an animal. Not a virus, it's not alive. Are they alive viruses? It's not a fungus thing is a bit of a tricky one for me. I always thought that a fungus was a plant. And now I've been told I'm an idiot.

They obviously covered that in third year. I dropped out during second. So if you're a vegetarian, you shouldn't eat fungi. That's exactly what I was thinking. These mushroom soup-eating vegetarians are hypocrites. Fungi are more closely related to animals than they are to plants. It's true! I'm not making it up! We share a common ancestor with a fungus.

I'm not making it up. So we share a common ancestor with a fungus. So the split between plants and us came before fungus and us. Correct. So, Ed, why do you... Fungi, fungi... What's the correct term, actually? Fungi, isn't it? Fungi.

Fungi. Is it fungi or fungi or fungi? Depends on your preference. Alkali? It depends on whether you're ordering an Italian pizza or not. It depends, you know, are you a plant or a plant? Ooh!

I'm a plant. He's obviously a plant. Plant? About nine minutes into that episode Brian got antsy and started screaming where's the physics? Where's the physics? Because physics is everything at heart. Well, it's the start of everything, I suppose.

Well, no, it's everything ultimately, I suppose, isn't it? No, but it's everything in a very simplified form. You know, for real complexity, I think you need biology. Yeah. All right. I mean, it depends on your definition of complexity. Agreed. Anyway, we brought in Jim Al-Khalili and Jane Langdale to consider the intelligence of grass and its quantum superpowers.

To have grass, for instance, described as a quantum computer, that suddenly changes the view of a garden. It's quite a narcissistic quantum computer because it only has the one particular measurement it does, but still, these... Grass is a narcissistic quantum computer. Well, it's not like... What else are you going to find out?

Right, grass. What does that mean? What other questions are you going to throw into that quantum computer? You've just found out it's just grass. It just remains grass. It's got all that intelligence, so smart. It can do all that quantum behaviour. What does it do?

It just remains growing. Ridiculous. It should use its quantum computing abilities for other things. Like what? Well, I don't know. Finding out the kind of questions Jim's got in physics. It's really hard stuff, though. Grass.

You think your lawn should do physics? Is that what you say? Yeah, I do. And because it doesn't, it's a narcissist. Well, I just think it's lazy. It's lazy. It's interesting, Jane, though, because Robin's prejudice against grass...

I like it. I'm not against it. But it reveals that there is an idea that you just plant, you know, we look at the title of this, the monkey cage, and you say, well, plant, you know, they're complicated organisms, extremely complex, aren't they? They are, and they've had to evolve quite intricate ways of being more plastic than we are, for example. So, you know, if we get hit and knocked over and our arm gets taken off, it won't get put back on. But if you take a branch off a tree or a plant, it'll just grow it

again. It's plastic. It takes whatever the environment throws at it. It can't run away. And it just rechanges its growth program, depending what's happening. So if the light's coming from one side, it grows towards it. If the light's coming from above, it grows up. If it senses gravity, if it's upside down, it will turn around and go the other way. Actually, what's very interesting about plants and that whole thing of, like, phototropism... Yeah.

..is that it turns... I went out for a day with a guy called Tristan Gooley, who's known as the natural navigator. He's a very interesting bloke. Maybe you should have him on. And what phototropism does, because, say, in Britain, for instance, called Tristan Gooley, who's known as the natural navigator. He's a very interesting bloke. Maybe you should have him on. And what phototropism does, because in, say, in Britain, for instance, the sun is always just to the south, plants in general grow towards the south,

and it turns every tree virtually into a compass. If you ever can't find your way, you can see it's more thick, lush growth on one side. It's quite handy. You did learn something. I did learn something. My first novel's going to be called The Narcissism of Grass. That has got Booker Prize written all over it.

Well, it will have Booker Prize written all over it, because I'll go to all the bookshops and write it all over it to try and increase its sales. The film's going to be great. Starring Roger Mower. Oh, Roger Mower. Roger Mower. I mean, you could have just made it simpler. Just made it Patrick Mower. Patrick Mower. Whose actual name you could have just made it simpler and just made it Patrick Mower. Patrick Mower.

Whose actual name is Patrick Mower. People will remember from Emmerdale. A wonderful actor and also certain episodes of The Sweeney. But you're not here to hear this tittle-tattle because at the end of each episode we always harvest the audience's opinion. And on this occasion, we wanted to know which plants would you remove

from the face of the earth, and why? It's a bit harsh, that. It is a bit harsh. Yeah. Roses, the answer is. They are a shocking cliché, and no other flower has a chance on special occasions. Grass.

Robert Plant, why did you leave Led Zeppelin? The, er, echinacea to annoy homeopaths. Yes! But that wouldn't annoy homeopaths, because if it didn't exist anymore, the increase in the nostalgia makes it more potent. For almost a decade, one question hung heavy over Brian's head.

When is a strawberry really dead? Once his gardener started working on his fruit patch, he started to fear that strawberries would never die. But just as Brian worried that the strawberries would take over like deadly but delicious triffids, Phil Jupitus was fearful of another vegetative takeover. Here he is with forensic botanist Mark Jones and ecologist Kate Jones. It was a bit confusing, that one, wasn't it?

Dr Jones? Dr Jones. Dr Jones. Dr Jones. Dr Jones. Dr Jones. Just thinking about looking around a typical garden, because there are certain things that we immediately might imagine.

We mentioned before in the kind of intro things about Japanese knotweed and that kind of thing. Strawberries. Strawberries. Indeed. We know a lot about strawberries on this show. We know, for example, that they were first bred in Brittany around 1750, a cross of a North American and Chilean species. So much as a strawberry can be both alive and dead,

which we've discussed at length on this show, a strawberry can be invasive or non-native and a linear combination of the two. Well, a strawberry can be invasive, but in this particular case it's not it's as you say derived from two non-native species but actually the garden strawberry is quite a sedate plant it's never been known to go out and ravage the british landscape or to actually have its wicked way with our native wild strawberry fregaria vesca which is a lovely wild plant, which is actually decreasing quite significantly in the UK, sadly.

I love that the image you created there initially of this kind of marauding strawberry plant there is like some kind of Triffid invading Wimbledon during the final... I have strange nightmares. It's a lovely... Phil, you are someone who travels, well, around the world and is a perpetual touring comedian and poet. Do you see yourself as an invasive species?

I see all comedians as invaders, basically culturally. Spending a lot of time, as I do now, in Scotland, certainly the invasion of Edinburgh every August by thousands of them is something that is quite apparent to the locals. What the comedians have done is they've crossbred over the years to provide a much more resilient strain lately. And they'll gig everywhere. Lofts, cellars.

It's very difficult to get rid of them. Anyway, my favourite invasive species, to tell the truth now, I like the grey squirrels, because I know that they wiped out the red ones, but I'm colour now, I like the grey squirrels, because I know that they wiped out the red ones, but I'm colourblind, so I didn't care anyway. But they've got different kind of... Their ears aren't the same either, though. I mean, it's not the case of, like, watching Snooker in black and white,

the difference between squirrels. There's structural differences, wouldn't you say? Yeah, they're smaller. The red squirrels are much smaller. They've got little cute tufts, and the grey squirrels are, like, aggressive. Oh, the narrative squirrels are much smaller. They've got little cute tufts and the grey squirrels are like aggressive. Oh, the narrative. The narrative. Cute. You had to say cute tufts. Grey squirrels, madam, are gorgeous

in their monochrome way. Yeah, but they're vicious and, you know, they've got carrying this pox. If you hold a peanut at the top of your thigh in Greenwich Park... What have you been doing? Outside of the leg! Outside of the leg. They will...

I've got this question on mine now. No, but not there. You don't want to put them there. For listeners at home, you don't know that accidentally the peanut mine became quite lewd. Didn't they wipe out the red squirrels or reduce the numbers? Was it a disease that they carried rather than...? Yeah, squirrel pox.

The grey squirrels have got this disease. So they used to think they out-competed them for food, but actually they just wiped them out with a horrible disease. In a series 23, we ask the question, which is better, bats or flies? Is it which are better or which is better? Well, who are better? Who are better? I suppose we don't we ask the question, which is better, bats or flies? Is it which are better or which is better? Well, who are better? Who are better?

I suppose we don't know about the who, because yet again, we still don't know if there is anything it is like to be a bat. But then, via echolocation... Or ADHD, perhaps. Yeah. Well, we found ourselves on a tangent when entomologist Erica McAllister and Professor Kate Jones started arguing about mosquitoes and just how many it would take to kill you. You've been under a mosquito net, haven't you? Didn't you end up with a bat in your mouth or something? Yeah, it was the bat that was trying to kill me, not the mosquitoes.

If the holes were big enough for a bat to get in... No, didn't it? It got in through the bit that you get out of. So I couldn't get out. So it was protecting me from mosquitoes, but it didn't protect me from the bat. I'm Kate Jones. I'm a professor of ecology and biodiversity at University College London and I guess if I had to say my favourite fly I would probably go for the most dangerous animal on the planet which is a mosquito. It's not it's not you know it's not.

I thought mosquitoes were the most dangerous animal. They transmit. They're vectors. But a mosquito itself, she doesn't kill you. So you can't blame her. She's just being a mother, doing what she's put on the planet to do, and you're having a go at her. She's being manipulated full stop by everything going on. Those plasmodium, no one has a go at them. It's not just plasmodium no one has a go at them it's not

just plasmodium is it though it's all the other things that take advantage of her she's obviously it's like dengue fever chicken gunya i know that's a brilliant name for a virus but you know a few things a few things but mosquitoes do a lot of good as well and she's it's not her fault no one cares about this i worry about this with fleas as well, because more fleas die during the plague than humans. Again. No one cares about that. And these sort of things, you know.

This is a fascinating thing to see entomology playing the victim card. Well, I worked out, the only way a mosquito could kill you personally is to exsanguinate you, so drain you of blood. Now, it would take about 414,000 mosquitoes in one feeding event to drain you of blood enough for you to die. And we physically don't have that much skin. Let's not forget that one of the good things mosquitoes do is to pollinate plants. And in fact, we learned that they're the most important mosquitoes do is to pollinate plants and in fact we learned that they're the most important pollinators of cacao so remember that next time you eat a bar of chocolate

it's an interesting the mosquito thing again we're so often as human beings we view certain creatures as being a hindrance or being an annoyance and then you actually go well if they were removed from life on earth then suddenly there's no mars bars for you yeah and this episode was a battle between bats and flies the other big pollinators and erica went on to sing the praises of flies she does love flies there's a lot of flies that only give birth to one young at a time. And these flies are found on bats. Are they? I didn't know that. Yeah, no, that's why I met Susie,

because we were checking out for flies on bats. Who's Susie? My little fruit bat from my old... Oh, I see. And honestly, you don't pay any attention. I know, I do. It was such a pity, because suddenly there was common ground. I know, we had it, and she blew it.

It's the perfect second reel of the movie. Hey, they're getting on. Oh no, in this Mills and Bloom romance, they've fallen apart again. These are wingless flies living on bats. And they give birth to one? They give birth to live young, so the flies themselves get pregnant. Wow. Yeah, they've got internal lactating glands.

What? Tits on the inside. And they will nurture. I don't know if i'm allowed to say that for radio 4 yeah also if that is not going to be sampled within the next year by someone i tits on the inside is undoubtedly it might not be a christmas number one but i could see it being an easter number five so the life cycle of the bat flight what's it called by the way oh there's there's two well we're arguing because we may sink them into one family but there's the nick terrybeards and the strebs strebler day and they um most of them if they've got wings they won't have them for long

some arguably the weirdest bat weirdest fly i think i know of one is that when she gets pregnant she then sticks her head in the side of the bat and she rips off her wings and her legs and then she basically invaginates her abdomen over her body so she looks like an inverted pear so it just looks really weird but yeah and she will then give birth to maybe four five young these flies the their offspring is like 40 of their body weight that's true for bats too actually we have common ground we've got to do right on this one of the things that's very important to know if you ever meet erica mcallister is she hates the term creepy crawly but she will then tell you the creepiest and crawliest stories about flies and in particular maggots

right actually i know i can't tell this story it's quite annoying all i can say is that the end of the story she went and weirdly the man didn't do anything about it until the maggots were moving around inside the sack that's all i'm going to say vivid yeah in the next episode we'll be looking at extraterrestrial life. We don't know if there is any, of course. It'll be a very short episode. No, we're going to be looking. So this could be a very long episode.

Looking for. It's going to be quite the opposite. We're going to be looking for extraterrestrial life. So that could go on for an eternity. Or, well, not an eternity. At least till the heat death of the universe. Yeah. I mean, I presume the heat death of the universe is going to be the end of life, isn't it?

That's very, very accurate. Oh. Yeah. Well done. You've learned something done so there we are, next week, Aliens the Infinite Monkeys guide to Aliens all the episodes we took clips from are available on BBC Sounds and you can find all the details of those in the programme description for this show in the Infinite Monkey

Cage till now nice again The Infinite Monkey Cage. Turned out nice again. Hello, my name's Greg Jenner. I am the host of You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy show that takes history seriously and then laughs at it. And I just wanted to say that if you like laughing,

if you like learning, if you like history, or if you hated history at school, well, we are the show for you. Yes, every episode I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. We do stuff you did at school, and we do stuff you've never even heard of. So if that sounds like fun, you can check out our back catalogue and our new series on BBC Sounds. Just type in You're Dead to Me and hit subscribe. Thank you. Bye. This is the first radio ad you can smell.

The new Cinnabon Pull Apart, only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey, and just five bucks with a small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. you