The Infinite Monkey Cage - The Infinite Monkey’s Guide To... The Apocalypse

Episode Date: September 13, 2023

Brian Cox and Robin Ince take a deep dive into the Monkey Cage archive to find out how scared scientists and comedians are about the universe ending. Steve Martin says he’s happy to burn to a crisp when the sun explodes, but learns he might be more likely to die when galaxies tear each other apart during the ‘big rip’. And if the heat death of the universe really is inevitable, how come some people seem so jolly about it? Having studied this for years, astrophysicist Katie Mack wants to be there when everything ends, prompting Eric Idle to again speculate on the meaning of life.New episodes will be released on Wednesdays, but if you’re in the UK, listen to new episodes, a week early, first on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3K3JzyFProducer: Marijke Peters Executive Producer: Alexandra Feachem

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. You're about to listen to an episode of The Infinite Monkey's Guide To. Episodes will be released on Wednesdays, wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to new episodes a week early, first on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Robin Ince.

And I'm Brian Cox, and welcome to The Infinite Monkey's Guide 2, in which we look back and also forward, and sometimes even in the present. See, you can't define them anyway in special relativity or general relativity the difference or the the dividing line between the and whatever it's a block universe just say what else is going to be in the series oh space exploration evolution oceans and strawberries and a lot else beside but let's begin at the end because today we're going to be your guides to the apocalypse, both on the parochial level of the end of all life on Earth and other minor details such as that,

but also on the more intergalactic level of the death of the universe itself. Back in the 1980s, when I was a teenager and Brian was 36, because that's the age he's always been, that's the age his inventor made him the predominant fear was that we would all die or mutate under the shadow of the mushroom cloud of an atom bomb brian i think out of the two of us i'm probably more of the worrier because you once said that everyone needed a bit of existential anxiety and then i said have you ever had any and you went no absolutely everyone apart from me. Well, as you said, I was constructed at the age of 36.

Who by? Oh, I can't ever tell you, you're an inventor. You've always got to believe you're a real boy. Anyway, back during the first lockdown, everyone was stuck in their house and very, very bored. So no one said no when we asked them to come on the show. And that's how we ended up with Steve Martin discussing how the universe might come to an end. Rip, crunch, stretch. Here he is talking to

physicist Brian Green. You know, I just feel that all human life will be completely gone by the time the universe ends. We'll go first. And so I don't think, think i mean i'd like to kind of know what it is you scientists are going to fill me in on on what will actually happen but i just figure we're here until the sun blows up or goes quiet or something or even if the earth's temperatures increase by 20 degrees then we could all be dead too so i don't have a favorite way i guess i guess burning to a crisp would i'd have to be right up there at the top yeah because initially you're kind of enjoying the smell until you realize it's you don't you say initially you think snack time and then you

realize it's self-cannibalism as richard pryor said what's that smell when we talk about the universe ending we have to be really careful what you mean by the word end or ending, right? The stuff inside the universe that we see, the stars, the planets, we can argue pretty convincingly that it will all disintegrate. It will all go away. As Steve said, at some point, you know, the sun is going to get big. We're all going to fry if we stay here on planet Earth. That we understand, but that is stuff inside the universe. We're talking about the universe as a whole, say space

and time. Even in our current understanding, it could be that the universe is eternal in the sense that space itself will continue to exist arbitrarily far into the future. So the stuff may go away, the universe as we know it may end, but the substrate, space and time, may be here for an eternity. Well, that's the best news I've heard all day. Thank you. Katie Mack is the author of The End of Everything, a book which taught me much, including why astronomers can be so melancholy. Ever since the discovery of the Big Bang, they've had to face up to the fact that

everything is moving away from them as fast as it can. I don't think that makes them melancholy. I don't think, I mean, they don't care. I mean, we're just trying to study nature. Nature is what it is. It doesn't matter what we think about it. You're not an astronomer. You just deal with tiny little things, not brilliant things like stars. You're all subatomic particles. Anyway, here's Katie with Steve Martin. Well, one of the ones that was much more popular in the 1960s and is very unlikely now, but we can't completely rule it out, is called the Big Crunch. And this might be one that people are most familiar with from science fiction and popular culture, the idea that the expansion of the universe as it's happening now could at some point stop, turn around and reverse.

And that would bring all of these distant galaxies rushing back toward us. And eventually, when you are compressing the universe in that way, not only are you compressing all of the matter, you're also compressing all of the radiation. And so you end up with space being much hotter and you get harder and harder radiation at higher densities. And so in the big crunch scenario, the thing that really kills you is not galaxies colliding or stars colliding. It's the background light of all of the stars that have ever been shining in the universe, cooking the stars and planets from the outside in. And so you end up in this horrific inferno. And there's another possibility that happens, which is called the big rip. And this is one where dark energy doesn't just move galaxies apart from each other, but actually

becomes more powerful over time in a sense and pulls galaxies apart themselves and sort of rips stars away from galaxies and planets away from stars and eventually rips apart the fabric of space itself. That one is the one that you can almost imagine that, that moment you're having a lovely walk and then you look up at the night sky and you go, I think that's just a, oh no, the big rips happen. Yeah, I mean, both of them are terrifying in the sense you'd see them coming. I just want to say that for all you listening on the radio, on the on the radio on the podcast you can't see we can see each other so we've got a video conference going and uh i always get by robin and eric often uh accused of smiling when i say these things the more that i

discuss the end of everything and the end of time the bigger my grin gets but katie and brian green also were smiling in describing these scenarios. I want to ask Steve and Eric what you make of the physicists relishing this discussion of the obliteration of all that we hold dear. It's because you're so pleased with yourselves. You know something we don't. You know something we don't. And you're so proud. you know something we don't. You know something we don't, and you're so proud. I think my favourite thing about that show was how you physicists just couldn't stop giggling

every time you discussed the end of everything. It's like you were actually excited by the prospect of the death of everything, of the death of all activity. It's thermodynamics in action. Until it reaches that point of action, I suppose, where you no longer exist to be excited or amused. Well, I agree that at the end of time, or the effective end of time, I suppose I would not be amused because there'd be no information processing it, or nothing could be amused. But then, if nothing's amused, is there anything there to be concerned about the fact that

there's nothing amusing? Yeah, I suppose the way you look at it, there's pluses and minuses. Many of us are familiar with the news that in around 4.5 billion years, the sun will swell into a red giant and engulf us. Yeah, there's a great story that Patrick Moore used to tell about a lecture he gave, and he said the sun will die in around 4.5 billion years' time. And someone at the back of the theatre put their hand up and said, Stop! Stop!

Did you say 4.5 half billion or four and a half million as if there was a problem if it was four and a half million and he said it doesn't matter i love that idea if it's four and a half million i'm getting the washing in now surely that's illogical because you wouldn't bother doing the washing would you it's four and a half million to be honest brian i know who does the washing and i don't think it's you i know your butler and i've seen his hands oh so wrinkled anyway solar scientist lucy green explained to stephen fry and eric idle the pros and cons of immortality the sun as we've said already is our friend and our foe and absolutely has to be monitored but then asteroids we touched on those earlier on

you know it's inevitable that we will have collisions from large rocky or metallic objects in the solar system and they they can be small and have a small impact or they can be massive and they can wipe out whole species so i think the sun we can understand i think asteroids we can understand but there's one thing that we probably can't do anything about and that's exploding stars nearby to the earth exploding stars or colliding stars that form huge bursts of dangerous radiation so these are supernovae explosions or colliding black holes and neutron stars and if that happens we would get a blast of dangerous radiation that would probably wipe out part of the upper atmosphere,

change the chemistry, allowing much more deadly ultraviolet light from our sun, and then start to act on our DNA and cause changes and eventually erode away the life that we have. I mean, Eric, any of you, really. I mean, the sun's going to swell into a red giant in 4.6 billion years, engulfing our own planet Mercury and Venus. There's probably going to be a galaxy clash in 3 billion years

that may well wipe us out as well. What is the point? I want to be around to see that happen. That's the point. I want to see the sun get to that phase, and I want to be studying it. Or I want somebody to be studying it. The worst possible scenario is that medical science advances so much that we live long enough to see the heat death of the universe. Wouldn't that be annoying?

We got immortality and the price of immortality was that we would see it all ending. I'm still waiting for Eric to tell us what the point is. The point of life, you mean? What are you saying? Yeah, the meaning of it. Back in 2010, when the apocalypse was so much further away than it is now are you claiming that 13 years makes a big difference well i mean it is a bit close to the apocalypse isn't it yeah by definition i suppose well so we should panic i mean if the apocalypse is 2024 then we should worry now but if the apocalypse is 2024, then we should worry now.

But if the apocalypse is in 10 to the 120 years, which is when the last supermassive black holes will evaporate away, then I don't think it makes a great deal of difference. OK, well, I'm just going to sit back and relax then. That is, of course, if Brian and his physicist pals are correct. What if the Aztecs are right and the Quetzalcoatl... Is it Quetzacotal or Quetzacotal? It doesn't actually matter. Oh, OK. You say Quetzacotal, I say Quetzacotal.

Let's call the whole... Actually, we don't know if we're going to call the whole thing off. That really is down to the Quetzacotal or the Quetzacotal. Anyway, if it does knock out the sun and the sun gets so angry it makes all their jaguars eat all the humans, or what if the Assyrians get it right, and the corruption and unruly teens... Anyway, Adam Rutherford and Andy Hamilton discuss the wide variety of apocalyptic myths. Every culture seems to have an apocalyptic myth, doesn't it?

And what's odd about them as well, I was thinking about this the other day, is that they all have this, I mean, a lot of it's obviously based in religion, but they all have this slightly kinky element in a way, which is that apocalypses are sort of like a form of punishment, really, almost like the universe is, you know, visiting correction on us and sort of doesn't really approve of us being here. Yeah, I mean, I do think, Adam, there does seem to be an anti-science element to this.

Well, it's not rational, if that's what you're asking. And the reason we can tell it's not rational is because every single apocalyptic theory in history up to date has not happened yet. And at some point, it's like ghost hunters, at some point they surely should turn around and say, do you know what, I think we've got enough data. So I counted that there were more than 60 in 2006 alone.

How about that? Well, you mean not to humans. I mean, there are mass extinctions all the time. That's absolutely right. In fact, mass extinction is the planetary norm, and that's something that is not really well understood in popular culture. There have been extinctions throughout the history of life on earth and in fact and i love this stat 97 of species that have ever existed currently don't

why do you love it well it's just because it shows how tiny we are in the grand scheme of things everything that has ever existed which is all intricately linked together through through darwinian evolution almost all of it doesn't exist anymore. I'm excited, though. You said, currently don't. Does that mean... Much like the pulp comeback I've been hearing about, are we going to have... ..a brachiosaurus? Good to have you back, yeah. I haven't got all the guys. This isn't the original Dictadocus.

I apologise. I think that's perfectly plausible in the long term. You'll get the docus, I apologise. I think that's perfectly plausible in the long term. I'm just looking forward for the day they get dodo's back. I just want to know what they taste like. Dodo pasta. They're going to be so angry if they come back, aren't they? Imagine, they're going to be cross, dodo's.

And still looking at themselves and going, I'm cross and ridiculous. The worst extra runnings to me. And of course, there were other myths they talked about as well, including the 2012 end of the world, which still worries me, because even though people say, well, we got past it, you think how long it takes, you know, normally if someone's building Wembley Stadium or whatever, they never finish it on time.

So maybe the apocalypse just didn't arrive at 2012. It's just been delayed. What, the apocalypse just didn't arrive at 2012 it's just been delayed what the apocalypse was delayed by administration errors yeah supply chain problems all construction work of major projects is always delayed so why shouldn't destruction work of major projects that see the apocalypse be delayed yeah it's basically croydon planning that are stopping the apocalypse they got all the paperwork from the Mayans in 2012 and they went, no, hang on, there's something not right here. So planning permission has not yet been granted for the apocalypse.

Croydon Planning, by the way, was the band Brian was in between Dare and D-Ream. Now, one of our most regular guests and indeed the composer of both our theme tune and the most popular song to play at funerals seemed like the person to turn to when pondering the apocalypse. Here's Eric Idle again and Stephen Fry. Is all we're doing with our scientific knowledge trying to mitigate the problems we cause with our scientific knowledge? No, because each time we evolve, I mean, look at my children.

They're all so highly technological. They know how to fix, turn off the television, they do internet. Their communication skills are so much more vast than when I was knocking around as a kid in the 50s. It's amazing. That evolutional leap is so huge.

I was going to say, when you said in the 50s, I thought you were going to say, when I lived in a cardboard box in the 50s. Oh, we couldn't afford cardboard. Couldn't afford iPhones. We had to shout to communicate. We had to go to the foot of our stairs. Shout yellow.

While we're on Python's Cups, it's in the future and the past, Eric. It occurred to me, I don't know if it occurred to you, but that now is the time for a sketch. Your classic and brilliant for Yorkshiremen is their sons going, you know... I go to my first lecture two hours before I get up, I work in a wine bar for six hours,

and then I get home and I have to study for 12 hours before I go to bed, and then I get up. I work in a wine bar for six hours and then I get home and I have to study for 12 hours before I go to bed and then I get up again three hours before. And then when I get out, I owe the government £700,000 and I can't get a foot on the ladder. You tell that to the old people these days, they won't believe you. Stephen Fry also offered us

a helpful tip, which is just, but only just, on the right side of cannibalism. Whatever the right side of cannibalism is. Well, I suppose not being a cannibal is the right... Anyway, look, so here he is talking about fat for fuel. Hello, I'm Stephen Fry. I'm from five minutes in the future. And I would save the world, well, as I'm from five minutes in the future. And I would save the world.

Well, as I told you five minutes ago. I would save the world. There are a lot of people like me who have slightly more adipose deposit than is necessary. And there are plenty of need, there's a huge need for more energy. So we just need a way of siphoning the fat out of people like me and burning it. And I think, you know, just the Midwest of America

alone could fuel the rest of the world for at least a decade while we worked on nuclear fusion. So that's my solution to saving the world. You can't be from five minutes in the future due to the hyperbolic geometry of space-time. No. The reason you can't be from any time in the future due to the hyperbolic geometry of space-time. No, the reason you can't be from any time in...

Oh, hang on. It's hyperbolic. It's a minus sign in the metric. Yeah, all right. OK, I'm from five minutes in the past, as I'm about to tell you. For the next few centuries at least, it does look like the universe has no grand designs on destroying us. So our survival, for now, is very much in our hands.

So don't worry about the big crunch or the big rip, and only be a little bit worried by the human-hungry flesh-eating jaguars. There's the message. The take-home moral. That's my final word. Don't worry about flesh-eating jaguars. No, worry a little bit about them. Only be a little bit worried. OK.

Next week, we hear from two science fiction icons, Patrick Stewart and Brian Blessed. As well as astronaut Chris Hadfield, as we bring you an infinite monkey's guide to space travel. Goodbye. Goodbye. In the infinite monkey cage. The naughty monkey.

In the infinite monkey cage. Without your trousers. In the infinite monkey cage. Turned out nice again. If you enjoyed our discussion on apocalyptic myths, here's another series about conspiracy theories that you might enjoy. Not that obviously I'm saying that it's a conspiracy theory that the universe is going to end.

It really probably is. No, it is. Along with COVID-19 came the rise of the conspiracy theory movement in the UK. The system's rotten at the core. It should be deleted. I'm Marianna Spring. In my new series, I'll be exposing how radical some people in the movement have become and how alternative media is fuelling them. So many crazy stories have been spread so far and wide

that it's hard to see this ending well. Marianna in Conspiracy Land on BBC Radio 4. Available now on BBC Sounds.