The Infinite Monkey Cage - The Infinite Monkey’s Guide to... The Movies

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

How important is it for movie producers to get the science right? Brian Cox and Robin Ince discover why some surprising movies have scientific advisers and ask if there is any science in The Simpsons. They question the existence of fictional wormholes, while comedian Ross Noble can’t believe there may actually be a space-time portal shaped like a pair of trousers. Some writers are even accurate by accident, as comic book author Alan Moore discovers when he tells Brian about one of his outlandish planetary plotlines… only to hear it obeys all the laws of physics. And Sir Patrick Stewart wows the panel with a little piece of plastic, but everyone agrees this Star Trek communicator is the stuff of legend.Episodes featured: Series 12: The Infinite Monkey Cage USA Tour: Los Angeles Series 12: Christmas Special Series 22: Black Holes Series 2: Science Fiction Science Fact Series 7: Space ExplorationNew episodes will be released on Wednesdays, but if you’re in the UK, listen to new episodes, a week early, first on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3K3JzyFProducer: Marijke Peters Executive Producer: Alexandra Feachem

In our new podcast, Nature Answers, rural stories from a changing planet, we are traveling with you to Uganda and Ghana to meet the people on the front lines of climate change. We will share stories of how they are thriving using lessons learned from nature. And good news, it is working. Learn more by listening to Nature Answers wherever you get your podcasts. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey gooey and just five bucks with a small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox. Welcome to The Infinite Monkey's Guide To, a new series in which we go through our extensive back catalogue of shows about event horizons, quantum superpositions and dead strawberries. We're not there yet, but there will be that dead strawberry show. Anyway, this week we're getting cinematic with the Infinite Monkeys Guide to the Movies. It's rather self-aggrandising, isn't it? Our extensive back catalogue. Well, it's very much like a 1970s advert for an extensive range of brine nylon sofas. I should do a lot more of this work, shouldn't I?

I think you should. You've got creepy 1970s voiceover, man. Perfect. Yeah, it's that bit where it's going, sorry, can we do that take again? Your suit made out of man-made fibres keeps sparking. I'm sorry, but as you can see, it moves with me. Now, for many of us, it was television and film

that ignited our scientific fascination, whether it was Doctor Who or 2001. But not the film The Black Hole from 1980, because it turns out apparently only you and I have heard of it, Brian. That was actually genuinely one of the great science fiction films for me at that time. And so, you know, if you haven't heard of it, of it then well that's not my problem really is it and it's got Anthony Perkins in it as well wasn't he the guy from Psycho yeah Norman Bates and all that so this week we're looking at some of our favorite conversations about science in the movies in the last few years the likes of Christopher Nolan and Danny Boyle have become more scientifically

scrupulous and of course as many of you will know Danny Boyle employed Professor Brian Cox to show that from his perspective without a shadow of a, it really was possible to restart a star by shoving a bomb in it. Now, I've spoke to a lot of other scientists and they say that's nonsense. So, Brian, why have you misled the public like this? Well, that's not exactly what I said to Danny. What I said was you really can't restart a star by shoving a bomb in it. Ah, and he just misunderstood the way you said, you really can't, for you saying, oh yes, Danny, yes you can. Let's go with that.

Anyway, enough of that. We're talking here about the rigorous science. When we went to Los Angeles, we spoke to Sean Carroll on his work on the scientific plausibility of norse gods yeah well anyway and scriptwriter david x cohen on mathematics in the simpsons i do have to ask you sean the the idea of a science advisor on thought is what what exactly is right where do you draw the line with the science this is why why you're not a famous Hollywood producer, I think, is you don't see how this comes in. For one thing, they had a wormhole in Thor. They envisioned that the Bifrost Bridge

that was bringing the gods from Asgard to Earth was, you know, this shortcut through space-time, just like Brian already explained. Sorry, so we wanted to get the wormhole accurate for the gods of Asgard to make sure they came down. But they didn't want to get the wormhole accurate for the gods of Asgard to make sure they came down. But they didn't want to get the wormhole. They said, so what is this thing? And I said, it is a wormhole.

And the president of Marvel Studios said, we can't call it that. It's 290s. 290s? Can we have our wormhole? We've got a wormhole. So if you watch the movie, Jane Foster, Natalie Portman, says they must have come over in an Einstein-Rosen bridge.

So that was my contribution to the movie. And Kat Denning says, what is that? And Stellan Skarsgård goes, it's a wormhole. Don't worry. So without the science advisor, they never would have gotten that. And more importantly, without the science advisor, Natalie Portman have gotten that. And more importantly, without the science advisor, Natalie Portman's character would not have been a particle physicist and therefore inspired who knows how many 12-year-old girls to go, like, what is that? I want to be what Jane Foster is.

I just love that it's so nice of her. Oh, Newton's second law, that's so late 1970s. We didn't mention that. It's quite deely-boppers and rollerblades. David, how important is it to get the science right? So The Simpsons are very famous, actually, for paying attention to science. Yeah, you know, to give my opinion, there's this writer, Simon Singh, from England, who has written a book about all the little math jokes that were hidden in The Simpsons and Futurama over the years.

So there is a little genuine math in science, but it's not important. That's the question. It's very, it couldn't be less important. It's usually, it comes in the form of, look at, you know, this shot of the classroom. There's a chalkboard in the background, and we're trying to rewrite some joke, and after about two hours of failing,

someone says, there's also a blank chalkboard in the background. Dave, go out and write some kind of equation to stick on that chalkboard. So those usually come in that way, and we never thought they were going to be a big deal. Then suddenly people started writing books about them, and I show up here on your panel.

But wait, let me tell you one more thing. When we started Futurama, which has a lot more science than science fiction, really we had a big debate about how much science we could put in, and one thing we agreed on early on is science shall not outweigh comedy. That was up on the whiteboard. What? It was there the whole time. Science not outweigh comedy that was like up on the whiteboard and what's there the whole time science totally outweighs comedy come on look at it he's going

well thank you very much that's the conclusion so we'd like to you know refer to it and make jokes about it let people know that we like it but but if the plot demands that they travel across space and get to another galaxy as which as you is unlikely, we're still going to do it. Right, Brian, because you are a physicist, I want to know, you've obviously seen some of the Marvel movies, and so many of those movies now use ideas of a quantum universe. And sometimes it just seems like, oh, this is an easy way to move the plot on. I agree with you. Oh, great. That was much quicker than I thought. What about Everything Everywhere All at Once?

Love it. However, I wouldn't use it as a quantum mechanics textbook. But I think that's one of the things, isn't it, with films. If anyone goes to watch a film and then goes, oh, I was going to also use that as my module for my degree, you're going to be in a bit of trouble, aren't you? Well, unless it's film studies. Oh, yeah, film studies. I could probably do that. I couldn't do physics, but I reckon I could do film studies. I know to sit it's a beautiful segue actually robin knows how to sit back to wormholes one of the greatest science lectures that i've ever been to was cosmologist faye dowker's third year introductory lecture on general relativity it was so good that even i understood some of it obviously until i went into the foyer when I

realized that all the stuff I understood had fallen out of my head when I got up which was annoying but she speaks with such passion and such joy and like before a lecture she she's more like a theatrical performer like she's kind of warming herself up because she's so excited about sharing that knowledge with her students yeah do do you know that Fay's father taught me general relativity at the University of Manchester in the 1990s. He was brilliant, Stuart Dowker, absolutely superb lecturer. I loved his lectures. Here is though Fay telling comedian Ross Noble a little bit more about wormholes. The black hole and the wormholes you've mentioned before are allowable in general relativity. They are and the wormholes you've mentioned before are allowable in general relativity they are

and the wormholes space wormholes come on you're absolutely right there are two different sorts of wormholes i've never heard those words before go on no, there's two sorts of wormholes. The wormhole in Interstellar is a spatial wormhole. That's a shortcut in space so that you can travel from one place in space to another place in space almost instantaneously because you go down this little shortcut. So those are spatial wormholes. My PhD thesis was about space-time wormholes and you're completely right to make the distinction because they are very different. So there's three types of wormholes. My PhD thesis was about space-time wormholes,

and you're completely right to make the distinction, because they are very different. So there's three types of worms. The worms. The worms. The space-time wormholes are interesting. They are not these shortcuts in space, but they are space times where two disconnected

portions of the universe can merge and become one and the space time looks something like a pair of trousers so if you imagine a pair of trousers then the two disconnected portions of the universe that are going to merge are the legs yeah And then they come together, of course, and then the waist region, that's the new universe that has formed out of the two disconnected pieces. And the two disconnected pieces, they come together at what is called scientifically the crotch singularity. And... Don't tempt me madam and the the interesting thing is that the consensus scientific consensus

on the crotch is that it produces an infinite burst of energy. And this probably makes this space-time unphysical. But again, we will have to wait until we have a full theory of quantum gravity to be able to give the final word

on this. Well, welcome to Call My Bluff. So, Ross, is space-time trouser singularity? Sorry. I was going to say, if this hasn't been condemned by the church already, it soon will be. 2001 A Space Odyssey is the science fiction movie that seemed to change it all. It came out in the 1960s where there was wild experimentation of many kinds and there were many that saw it as a prophecy

more than even a movie in fact in one american cinema there was a wild-eyed audience member who just suddenly stood up shouted now i see the truth and threw himself through the cinema screen finding out that actually what lay on the other side was not a star child but some old movie posters and an oil can or two also Brian did you know that Ronnie Corbett was originally going to be one of the apes in the early scenes of 2001 a space odyssey is that actually true well I was told this the other day that he didn't like having to have straws put up his nose, so he couldn't have the latex mask made. Because you have to breathe when you'd be having the headpiece made, so that's why Ronnie Corbett isn't one of the apes in 2001 Space Odyssey. That would have been wonderful, wouldn't it? It would be lovely,

wouldn't it, to find out that actually every single one of those apes was played by a very, very well-known celebrity or scientist. Tommy Cooper. Jacob Bronowski, the Beverly Sisters. Anyway, cosmologist Jan Eleven, who's the author of one of my favourite science books, actually, How the Universe Got Its Spots, told us a little bit about Stanley Kubrick's ideas of the depressurised pod for 2001 A Space Odyssey. I was thinking about this very, very accurate movie, which is 2001 Space Odyssey.

And there's a scene where one of the characters gets into a depressurized pod, trying to get back into the spacecraft after Hal's kicked him out. And he's there without his helmet on, I believe, for like 14 seconds. And there was this big argument about whether or not his head would explode. And apparently, Kubrick filmed it with him wearing the helmet originally, and then discovered some research

saying that he could survive for 14 seconds, and then refilmed it without the helmet. Now, that might not be a true story but I just thought it was pretty fascinating because it wasn't actually a mistake do you know what actually I think that Stanley Kubrick got the music wrong in 2001 what blew down you ball yes because the opening music is Richard Strauss's also sprang Zarathustra and it's a wonderful piece of music and that sunrise when Zarathustra comes out of his cave and starts walking down the mountain. And then later on in that same piece of music, there's a magnificent waltz where Zarathustra waltzes up to the cosmos. And he becomes one with the cosmos.

And he really takes the next step in the evolution of the human race, which is clearly what the film is about. And for some reason, Stanley Kubrick did not use that waltz. And Richard Strauss' waltz is a parody of the Blue Danube style waltzes. So not only do you ruin movies by demanding scientific accuracy, you ruin them by also demanding philosophical stroke classical music accuracy as well. Philosoph philosophical and musical accuracy fair enough you know when we did a musical with eric eidel oh yeah and warwick davis was in it as the big bang and i said to warwick that as far as we understand now the universe is

going to carry on accelerating in its expansion forever so it will expand forever and ultimately there are models of the expansion of the universe where the expansion gets so rapid that space and time themselves get ripped apart and warwick said well could i perhaps construct a little pod would that protect me and i said no one of the greatest imaginative minds in fiction is alan moore author of Watchmen, V for Vendetta, From Hell, and also a recent short story which concerns the very first femtosecond of the universe and opens with the line, it was the best of times, it was the first of times. I love that. When I heard that, I just thought, why didn't I think of that? And the reason is because I'm not Alan Moore. When Alan spoke to string theorist Brian Green,

he found out that some of his wilder ideas actually fitted surprisingly well with modern thinking in theoretical physics. The thing is, with science fiction, you have to remember the fiction bit. I mean, like, I'd keep up to date with the latest scientific theories to see if there were any particularly mad ones that I could possibly sort of turn into a money-making series. But at the end of the day, the science in science fiction is mostly rubbish.

I remember that, I think, in Halo Jones, I'd got a planet of such mass that time was actually being bent as a function of gravity. That sort of, I thought, well, maybe that could work. It's absolutely

correct. Is it? Yeah. And if you wrote that before 1915, you're a genius. Brian, I mean, for me, science fiction was, when I was growing up, was one of those things that inspired me to be a scientist. Because I couldn't really tell the difference. I grew up in the 70s, and for me, the Apollo moon landings merged with Star Wars and merged with Star Trek.

Was that the same for you? Was it a part of why you chose that? Well, certainly Star Trek, you know, I would sit around with my dad and we'd watch it, and there'd be all this crazy stuff happening, and how could you not get, you know, excited about this guy with pointy ears and flying out and exploring the universe? So I knew from an early age that I got C-Sec, so I wasn't going out in a rocket ship. That was pretty clear. But maybe, you know, you could fly out in your mind, you know, and explore the universe that way.

See, does it mislead, though, at all, just on Star Trek? Because when I was reading something the other day about obviously the fact that you can't actually go at the speed of light, but you can go near the speed of light, and I started to think, would that mean that Star Trek was merely a show in which lots of people just kind of sat there and just went, are we there yet? Yeah, there's a real issue that Star Trek never dealt with,

which is if they were traveling at the speeds that they supposedly were by actually warping time, you could never communicate back with Starfleet command because so many years would have gone by that it would be like 10,000 years past. So there's a time warp element that they never dealt with. But yeah, those elements, I think, just like you're saying, who cares? If it's fun to watch and it's exciting and it gets you, you know, thinking about, you know, the universe, I think that's all that matters.

Patrick Stewart has managed to maintain a wonderful career on the Shakespearean stage while dominating two major science fiction franchises, X-Men and Star Trek. And I have to say, I've rarely seen Brian happier than when he was allowed to touch Picard's communicator badge. It was wonderful because there were real meteorites at the recording. So these things are four and a half billion years old, the primordial building blocks of the solar system. You get to touch the ingredients of Earth. And yet, me and the rest of the audience were more impressed with Patrick Stewart's communicator badge. Here is Patrick Stewart on Star Trek fiction versus cosmological

reality. In, of course, Star Trek The Next Generation, and indeed the other shows, kind of there's this wonderful thing where a ship just goes, oh look, here's another planet full of life, here's another planet full of life. And of course, it actually turns out that the universe is of incredible size and to get anywhere, certainly with the technology that we're currently talking about, that actually the likelihood of being, you know, we'll get to another planet and go, no, that's just a kind of gas giant, that's got nothing in it, that's got nothing in it.

But, of course, we didn't film those episodes. I mean... APPLAUSE There were lots and lots and lots of weeks that we didn't find any aliens at all. Oh, well, that's... Warp 9!

There you go. But, you know, I'm not sure if this is the place and time for a revelation. But you mentioned a date just now, Brian, 1987. Now, there is a connection between the arrival of Star Trek The Next Generation and the underfunding of the space race, and particularly of NASA. Very few people know this, but Star Trek The Next Generation was actually financed by the American government and the CIA.

Why? To distract the United States' attention away from the fact that we were no longer spending any money on space. Now, that is a conspiracy theory, isn't it? If you say so, Brian. I know this is kind of show and tell with what Monica has brought along. I brought a little something too, which is also from outer space. I'd just like you to pass it around you.

This was from the last year of the series. Oh. Security! Isn't it... Actually, there is something sad about the fact that I tried to run it... I had a piece of Mars in my hand. I can't believe you've got this.

I should say what it is. It is a Star Trek... It's a communicator. It is. An original. I wore all the way say what it is. It is a Star Trek... It's a communicator. It is. So I can tap it and say... An original, not a... I wore all the way through the last season. So it's been around a bit. I have never... That's the biggest reaction. We have talked about some of the...

In seven series, some of the most incredible, mind-blowing ideas of evolution, of particle physics. We have had people talking about CERN, about the Large Hadron Collider and the incredible real things, something made by a prop manufacturer in a suburb of LA. Can you believe such a thing exists? Get the Turing Shroud out of the way.

Put that in a bin. Well, that's a bad example, the Turing Shroud. What I'm comparing this to is the Turing trap. Let us now pass this relic, this nail of the cross that has been brought here. Oh, I have stigmata too.

The Infinite Monkey Cage episode we took all of these clips from are available on BBC Sounds and the Infinite Monkey Cage back catalogue. Next week we'll be hearing from Katie Brand about fruit generating chickens and Rufus Hound tells us how he would commit the perfect murder as we mull on what death is in the Infinite Monkey's Guide to Strawberries. But before we go there was a very special treat for us when we recorded our LA episode of Monkey Cage. I remember when we walked into theatre, and you in particular,

because you have this encyclopaedic knowledge of 1970s television, got very excited. Oh, the photos on the wall, the posts on the wall. And then the most beautiful thing is, it's the Ricardo Montalban Theatre, and of course Ricardo Montalban from Fantasy Island he was khan in the star trek tv series and then obviously wrath of khan and then the spy kids movies but before we went on there's a pre-recorded announcement which just goes ladies and gentlemen please turn off your cell phones otherwise you will experience the wrath of Khan. Yeah, and then, to make it even more surreal, Eric Idle and Jeff Lynn turned up unannounced

and performed the first, and I think it's the only, live rendition of our theme tune. With their cheeky monkeys in the infinite monkey cave Without your trousers in the Infinite Monkey Kid Oi! If you've enjoyed this discussion about science in the movies, here's another film-related podcast

you might enjoy. And if you've not enjoyed this podcast, you probably didn't get to this bit anyway. Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the greatest storyteller of all? To countless fans worldwide, the answer is Walt Disney. I'm Mel Gedroych, and in my Radio 4 podcast, Walt Disney, A Life in Films, I'm leaping through the looking glass and entering the world of the man behind the mouse. Who was the real Walt Disney?

And how did somebody who moulded Western pop culture in his image end up on his deathbed afraid that he'd be forgotten? Through the stories of ten of his greatest works, I'll be separating what's fact and what's fiction when it comes to this much mythologised genius. Listen now on BBC Sounds. participating Wednesdays until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. In our new podcast, Nature Answers, rural stories from a changing planet,

we are traveling with you to Uganda and Ghana to meet the people on the front lines of climate change. We will share stories of how they are thriving using lessons learned from nature. And good news, it is working. Learn more by listening to Nature Answers wherever you get your podcasts. you