The Infinite Monkey Cage - The Infinite Monkey’s Guide to... The Supernatural

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

Brian Cox and Robin Ince trawl through the Monkey Cage back catalogue to reveal whether science and the supernatural can sit side by side. They hear how comedian Lucy Beaumont believes alien life has visited Hull, and challenge the physics and psychology of ghosts with Prof Richard Wiseman. Has our brain evolved to conjure up ghostly apparitions and demonic forces? Is there real science behind some of our most common paranormal experiences? And they unpick the practical difficulties for Santa delivering gifts, discovering that quantum physics could just make it possible.New episodes will be released on Wednesdays, but if you’re in the UK, listen to new episodes, a week early, first on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3K3JzyFProducer: Marijke Peters Executive Producer: Alexandra Feachem

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. You're about to listen to an episode of The Infinite Monkey's Guide To... Episodes will be released on Wednesdays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to new episodes a week early, first on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Robin Ince. And I'm Brian Cox.

Welcome to The Infinite Monkey's Guide To, a new series in which we go through our extensive back catalogue of shows about event horizons, quantum superpositions and obviously dead strawberries. This week, it's The Infinite Monkey's Guide to the Supernatural. I mean, there's no such thing. It's either natural or it doesn't exist. And we'll get to that. Are you sure? I thought there was an equation to prove the existence of ghosts. Is there not?

No. If a dead cat is alive... No. You sure? We've been lucky enough to have people who've stood on the moon, won Nobel Prizes, stared back to the origin of the universe, and stopped Robin talking, which is extremely important, by using

a magnetic pulse to his motor region. To be honest, even I enjoyed the silence. Anyway, we're going to offer you some handy guides to the known universe and perhaps a little bit of conjecture about the unknown universe. Now today we're going to be looking at a subject that led to some of our highest numbers of complaints rightly so in my view in particular though from the recently deceased our first foray into the supernatural was in an episode about ghosts and demons and i've got to tell you this led to one of our favorite complaints about lack of diversity on the panel because this is true we got a complaint that the panel was only made up of living people the complaint was the dead are not represented we replied to the complainant

there was a ghost on the panel didn't you hear them and that's when they asked us to stop replying to the complaints ourselves and just leave it to the bbc it's the human imagination and what it can populate the world with that in many ways most interests me. And Professor Richard Wiseman told us about how many people believe they've experienced something ghostly or uncanny. We did a survey recently and one in four people said they'd experienced some ghost-like phenomena. And of those experiences, the most common one is what people refer to as the incubus, which is the demonic figure that comes in the middle of the night and sits on your chest, pins you down, makes you sexually aroused and scares you.

At least that's what he does to me. I don't know about... I now realise that I could be overgeneralising my own experiences and no one else. But for those of you listening on the radio, he did that purely with the look on his face. But no, the look on your face did not suggest that you were the victim. The look on your face suggested a man who occasionally dons a sheet and thinks, I'll go into that room. A man who's using psychology, possibly for evil, yet again. Anyway, so the incubus, which has been around a long time,

basically takes very many different forms. So if you're into alien abduction, you think it's an alien that's sitting on your chest. If you're into ghosts, then it's a spirit rather than a demonic force like the incubus. So what's interesting about the experience is you find it in pretty much every different culture throughout time, and there's a very good psychological explanation for it.

I don't know what it is, but... LAUGHTER No, I do. It's that when we dream, we become paralysed, so we don't act out our dreams and injure ourselves. And as we drift from dream state into waking state, some of the bizarre imagery comes across and so does the notion of being paralysed.

And you try and interpret that, you try and make sense of it, and you think, oh, my goodness, I'm paralysed, there must be somebody holding me down. Now, oh, my goodness, I see this evil spirit, that's what's happening there. And what's really interesting is that that experience that can be terrifying for people if you buy into the idea of demonic forces or ghosts or aliens,

once you explain the psychology, is actually not at all scary. So some people who've had this, people can actually kind of embrace the cure for it and will take on reason in this, all scary so some people who've had this people can actually kind of embrace that you know the cure for and we'll take on reason in this because obviously you know the battle of of reason uh against superstition is a difficult one absolutely same with hearing voices i mean if you hear voices you think it's the voice of god or the dead that's scary as soon as you know that our brain produces internal dialogue for all sorts of reasons actually it's not so scary so in that sense being rational can help you saying that there are genuine demonic forces out there. Which I imagine your next book will probably deal with. My next book,

Genuine Demonic Forces. See you in your room later, I'll be in the sheet. Now, physicists don't own the copyright on mysterious cats. Andy Nyman told us about a psychic, you know, I mean, right, anyway, and a piano playing cat. There used to be a hilarious psychic hour on a London radio station and I was listening to it and there was a woman on there who was a phone in and she'd phoned into the psychic and said this extraordinary thing happened i don't know that you're going to be able to explain this she said i live at home with my cats and uh not making it up but i felt like saying so at home with my cats i have a piano and i'd gone to bed and the piano was down and um i went to bed and i suddenly heard four or five notes playing on the piano. And I came back down and I had a look and the thing was down and it was, you know, couldn't have been the cats.

So they had a sceptic on there as well. And the sceptic said to her, look, well, one of the interesting things is that pianos, because it's a string instrument, you know, fundamentally in that they contract and expand in heat. And sometimes you'll find in changes of temperature that you will it sounds like notes are playing and she went and then the psychic said the other thing is that fairies play yes yes i think that's what's extraordinary is that the desire to believe it is so overwhelming that all logic flies out of the window to just grasp onto something magical. Neither of us would argue that unidentified flying objects exist. They do exist because there are flying things that are not identified, but it is a big leap to go from that's unidentified. I don't know what it is to i don't know what that is so i think that an alien

civilization evolved way in advance of us traveled across thousands or even millions of light years came down to the earth and then just landed and bothered a few cows and a farmer saw them and then they took off again yeah it does seem to be a bit of a leap doesn't it from oh i don't know what that is to i don't know what that is so the only thing it could be is an alien intelligence that's come to probe me yeah the fact that it came to you to probe and the use of the word intelligence is i agree they don't fit it can't go straight to a brain like yours brian your brain's so complex. Mine is just a simple burst of urges.

Well, maybe they were going into the right part of your anatomy. I didn't say where I was going to be probed, thank you very much. In the ear. I just meant a nasal probe. Oh, this is disgusting. I still love, and you know this, Igor and Boris Strogatsky's book, Roadside Picnic, which actually postulates that rather than the aliens coming to either bother us or bother cows,

they won't even notice any of us exist. They'll just use the earth as a lay-by, have a picnic, chuck all their rubbish out and leave again. Anyway, when we decided to talk about the possibility of E.T. having visited earth, we went to an inhabitant of the city that has the UK's highest recorded number of UFO sightings. And that city is Hull. How do you say it? Hull. It's never dull in Hull.

It is never dull in Hull. Here's comedian Lucy Beaumont. Well, the conversation went like this, didn't it, Brian? I said to you, do you believe in aliens? And you said no. And I said, you're wrong. That was it. It wasn't really a chat, it was a disagreement.

And then I said, in Hull, Brian, and you laughed at that and that annoyed me, actually. And I explained to you that me and my mum saw an object that was sort of like, it was sort of like solid yet fluid, sort of iridescent, and it just sort of floated up past the window and disappeared. And I said to Brian, what could that have been? And you said, a balloon.

To be honest, that's his answer to normally everything. He just loves balloons. As opposed to a spacecraft that had travelled across interstellar distances to hole. Then floated up to your window and then disappeared back to Alpha Centauri. So you've changed your mind now, have you? No, I think the balloon is the more likely explanation. We should preface the next clip with a spoiler alert. There may be some refutation of Father Christmas,

but admittedly, we made sure that that show didn't go out till Boxing Day 2011. Then it was safe to refute Santa because, of course, he'd already brought me all the presents. As far as I remember, Brian got a speedboat and I got a satsuma. And some walnuts. Some walnut shells. So did he deliver walnuts to you and then eat the walnuts and just leave the shells there? Yeah, do you know what was even more annoying, right? I left out a little mince pie for him but that wasn't enough. He went to the fridge and ate the whole of the turkey as well. Before it was cooked. Yeah, I've had enough

of Santa. Anyway, Roger Heifeld told Richard Dawkins some of the issues Father Christmas faces on his yearly mission and from that point onwards thateld told Richard Dawkins some of the issues Father Christmas faces on his yearly mission. And from that point onwards, that is why Richard Dawkins really does believe Santa's real. Now, Roger, as Robin said, you've written a book called Can Reindeer Fly? In which you outline the difficulties Santa faces on Christmas Eve

amongst other things. And I thought I'd summarise the difficulties and then you can tell me how he gets around it. So, he has to visit approximately 2 billion children. Assuming that there are 2.5 children per household, that's about 800 million stops on Christmas Eve. And if we assume that they're equally spread across the land masses of the planet, each house occupies about 0.069 square miles,

which means the distance between each is on average about 0.26 miles. And given that he has 48 hours on Christmas Eve, if he journeys across the international dateline in the direction of the Earth's rotation, one can calculate that he has 2 ten thousandths of a second per household. His sleigh must therefore travel at 1,279 miles per second, which is Mach 6,395. How does he do that?

How does he do that? Well, of course, like anything in science, there are rival theories out there. If you talk to Larry Silverberg of North Carolina State University, he's very into the warp drive sleigh concept. And, you know, there's some beautiful work talking about how you can warp space-time and get up to extremely, maybe even near or beyond relative

to some point speed light speed velocities then you've got people like ian stewart uh who talks about warping space and time with wormholes you can wriggle from one region in space time to another then if you wriggle through all those chimneys as well yeah well that right. But this is where the other... Now, in fact, it sounds like you're a member of the third camp, Richard, which is quantum teleportation. So if you talk to Anton Zierlinger and people of the University of Vienna

and Charles Bennett of IBM, they're quite into quantum teleportation. But, of course, you've got to define the quantum state of Santa. That means an awful lot of information. I mean, if I diced up Brian down to the last millimetre, that would be about 10 gigabytes of info. But I think if I define the quantum state of Brian, that would be something like 10 to the 32 bits.

There's a massive amount of information there. And, of course... LAUGHTER Don't look so surprised. I mean, I surprised i mean i would you like another share now in the summer of that year we decided to prove that science was and still is always was the new rock and roll but with tighter peer review on the drugs and things we went to glastonbury with billy bragg graham coxson from blur chaparral course andy and tony We went to Glastonbury with Billy Bragg, Graham Coxon from Blur, Shafarak Khorsandi and Tony Ryan to ask

is there room for mysticism in a rational world? Ladies and gentlemen, you are about to witness such a fantastic thing. Please please, for the Infinite Monkey Cage please welcome Brian Cox and Robin Hitch with their guest Russell E. T on the award!

That's not... This isn't very Radio 4, is it? Who's here for particle physics? Yeah, this is the kind of thing that we need. Quantum chromodynamics! Oh, a lot more over that side. That's quite interesting. Because we're at Glastonbury, we have erected a great rational tent. A solitary place within which the light of reason can burn safely amongst the smouldering rubble of the Enlightenment

strewn across the muddy fields outside. My only worry is what they're going to do with that giant wicker Einstein that they're building out the front. So, where better to discover science than balancing on a ley line? For this reason, Brian is wearing an azurite crystal, traditionally the crystal worn to enhance

rationalism. Billy, you've been here, I think you've done the most at Glastonbury festivals or anywhere on this panel. How true do you think it is that Glastonbury deserves this reputation of kind of, you've been here, I think you've done the most at Glastonbury festivals or anywhere on this panel. How true do you think it is that Glastonbury deserves this reputation of kind of, you know, mysticism and irrationalism and kind of, you know, the idea of naked hippies dancing at the dawn? It's one of the few places you can still get away with that kind of stuff. But there is great science going on here.

It's a well-known fact that there are so many people here at Glastonbury, their activities actually generate a condensing cloud over the site that rains continually. Brian, I mean, I've got to ask, how did that cheer compare to when you played the Dog and Whistle with your band Dare in Oldham? It wasn't the Dog and Whistle, it was the Hurricane Snooker Club in 1987. Well, Glastonbury was a bigger cheer and also to be honest you were drinking very different things then as well weren't you you know before glastonbury it was fine wines before the hurricane snooker club what was it i think it was diamond white and vodka anyway back at glastonbury we got on to discussing whether believing in odin for, is much the same as believing in dark energy. It isn't.

But we had that chat with Shapparat Kossandi and Billy Bragg. How do you feel, Shapparat? You were saying before we went on air that you feel that you're kind of more mystic than rational. Oh no, I didn't say I'm more mystic than rational. I think I said something along the lines of whatever gets you through the night.

Then you said imagine. Then you said something about a shaved fish. What I find interesting about this, because I do sit between the two, but I find that it's extremely important to have a conversation with science. But if you use the wrong word or the wrong phrase, then the rationalists all dance around you,

pointing their finger in your face and laughing. And that is fanaticism. That's no different to religious fanaticism in my book because it shuts down communication. And that's no good to anybody. That sounds exactly like the Socialist Workers Party, actually, now you mention that. They do exactly the same to me

whenever I step off the path of righteousness. We're talking there about the perceived mismatch between science and other ways of looking at the world. And a lot of people said to me, when you come into Glastonbury, you are actually going to get put in the wicker Einstein. But is that a necessary thing? Is it inevitable that if you start to try and work out the way that the world works by looking at it carrying out experiments using the scientific method is the necessary conflict well it is if you are an extremist i don't have a problem at all with atheism but i do have a problem with the attitude of anybody who believes in something like a supreme being is stupid i actually feel that you know religion uh you know if people get some comfort from it, that's fine.

And also, if you look at science, particularly if you look at science in the absolute maximum, and you might be able to correct me if I'm wrong here, but currently I understand that scientists believe that the universe is made up of 95% of dark stuff, which we can't see, sniff, touch or feel,

but must be there according to your theories. So you're asking us to believe in something intangible and massive. Right, if I could just ask the rest of the panellists and myself if we could just leave the stage and allow Billy and Brian to deal with this in their own

method. No, I mean the statement that 95% of the universe or 96% is made of something else is an observational statement. I mean, it's a baffling statement. It would have been far easier to understand the universe if that had not been the case, but it was observed to be true, so the universe doesn't behave in the way that our theories suggest.

But you believe that, don't you? Well, you have to believe the evidence, because that's what we've measured. Do you have faith in the fact that it's there? That's a good question. I should... Sorry, did you just talk amongst yourselves over that? But I would say that the absence of a belief system is not a belief system. There are areas of science,

and this dark matter issue is an area where you don't know exactly what's happening, so you have a series of beliefs that explain that, which is what... Theories, yeah. Theories. Well, that's what religious people do. They see the world in a particular way,

and they explain it by the existence of a supreme being. Isn't there similarity there? No, the search here, though, is our best theory says the universe should behave like this, and it doesn't behave like our best theory. And the bit that stops it behaving like our best theory is the missing mass. So we either search for a better theory, which is happening,

or we search for the hidden mass, which is happening. It's not a belief system. It's a belief in looking for evidence. Our final words go to two people whose profession is to turn the rational into the irrational and vice versa. Award-winning comedians Josie Long and Paul Foote. This is always the problem when we're trying to be rational is who do we trust to be the rational people?

Yeah, I do think it's hard, especially when it comes to things that I am never going to be an expert on, but I do care about. I do find I'll try and have a pool of people that I consider to be reliable and I try to read their stuff as critically as possible. They've got that. They're called scientists. Some scientists. reliable and I try to read their stuff as critically as possible they're called scientists some scientists uh Paul do you have someone who's your rationality advisor or have you left all of that behind now no I have I have a whole team of people who give feed me irrational thoughts all day long so irrational thought yeah irrational well I have to have I mean

they're irrationality advisors so you can't come up with your own irrational thoughts? Well, yes, I can, but obviously, I can't, obviously I can, but it's, so the rational thing, therefore, would be not to employ a team of people to give me irrational advice.

In fact, having a team of people to give me irrational advice was one of my first irrational thoughts. And in fact, I'm going to sack them next week, which is the only rational thing I've done in years. I hope our short show has made you feel a little safer when walking through the graveyard after dusk. Well, it does depend on which graveyard it is and where it is.

Oh, you're right because some graveyards have more ghosts in them don't they you you did an equation on that as well didn't you it's the living i would be worried about yeah you mean like jim morrison's grave where it's just surrounded by people drinking wild turkey that kind of thing brian though i mean i think this is a question a lot of listeners are thinking of if you could be haunted by just one person who would you like it to be i think you i think you are already it's good isn't it i've been haunting you for years now now the last show in this series will be dedicated to you the listeners and we'd like to hear from you about the things that have most surprised you on monkey cage since

the program started so you can email us atcage at bbc.co.uk or you can tweet us and I'm going to still call it Twitter. Our Twitter handle is at the Monkey Cage and what I don't know what it is on X. Exorcist the Exorcist. So please get in touch. We've already a lot of messages actually about trees and bees. So maybe something else. Next week it's the Infinite Monkeys Guide to the Apocalypse. And we'll be hearing from Katie Mack, Brian Green, Stephen Fry and Steve Martin. Or, as I know him, Dr. Huffer. Yes, it's going to be that Steve Martin.

Goodbye. Goodbye. In the Infinite Monkey Cage. That naughty monkey. In the Infinite Monkey Cage. Without your trousers. In the Infinite monkey cage Without your trousers In the infinite monkey cage Turned out nice again Oh, by the way, before you go

Just point you in the direction of another podcast That you might enjoy I hear sobbing And I absolutely knew That nobody else was in the house. Uncanny is back. The on-duty flight lieutenant came in white as a sheet, and he said, it's back. Season two, featuring brand new stories of real-life encounters with the supernatural.

I had never been so scared in my life. I don't believe in ghosts but I believe in what was in that house. Subscribe on BBC Sounds if you dare.