The Joe Rogan Experience - #2324 - Amanda Knox

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

Amanda Knox is an exoneree, journalist, public speaker, and author of two books, the newest of which is “Free: My Search for Meaning.” She co-hosts the podcast “Labyrinths” with her partner, Christopher Robinson. Knoxsits on the board of the Innocence Center, and serves as an Innocence Network Ambassador.www.amandaknox.comhttps://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/amanda-knox/free/9781538770719/ Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at ziprecruiter.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Joe Rogan Experience. Trained by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Hey, good to see you again. You have a book? I do. Yeah, I hope you like it. Free. That's a great name.

Yeah, well, it's on point. Yeah, it's on the nose. Yes. Yeah. Well, that whole question of what Yeah, it's on the nose. Yes. Well, that whole question of what does it mean to be free? And yes, there's the physical, like, oh, you're out of prison. But then also, is your life the thing that you expected it to be? And how do you make your own freedom

when you feel hemmed in by all of the things that happened to you? Yeah, you're connected to that forever. That's always going to be a part of your life. It's not like anything else that didn't really happen. Like you didn't do anything. And you're connected to something that you didn't really do forever.

For people that don't know the story, we should probably. Yeah, we should do a little recap. OK, recap, friends. Real quick. Recap, friends. And you can go back to the episode of that of Joe Rogan what number was that do you know off the top of your head if you just Google Amanda Knox you'll go holy shit go down a crazy

rabbit hole yes so in a nutshell what happened yeah I was studying abroad when I was 20 years old in Perugia Italy my one of my roommates was raped and murdered by a burglar who broke into our home. But I was accused of having orchestrated a murder orgy. And I was sent to prison for four years. I was sentenced to 26 years. I was put on trial for eight years. And it became this international scandal where it sort of pinged all of the buttons in all the right places. This happened in 2007. So, you know, early 2000s when the internet was or the internet, the social media was really becoming a thing, the iPhone was becoming

a thing. I think that that played a huge role of people sort of going into their little echo chambers and fighting online. And so I think that there was, yeah, it was a case that, for whatever reason, rose above the level of other cases. Ultimately, this case was actually very simple, and it wouldn't have risen to the level of international infamy were it not for the series of mistakes that the prosecution and the detectives made at the very beginning by trying to pin a man's crime on me, a woman. Trevor Burrus And if anybody wants, there's a documentary.

Jennifer Zichal There's a Netflix documentary. I wrote a book called Waiting to be Heard and then more recently I wrote this book called Waiting to be Heard. And then more recently, I wrote this book, Free My Search for Meaning, which covers like, you know, you can read it and learn about the case, but it's mostly about how do you come out of an experience like that and make sense of it. And then part one of the big stories in it is how I then developed a relationship with my prosecutor, which I think you'll probably be in the camp of people of thinking that I'm utterly insane for having done that. Maybe, maybe, maybe you won't. I just remember that when we talked about this back in the day, you were like,

this motherfucker. Yeah. So you've become friends with him? Friend is an interesting word. What is a friend? Someone else asked me that. I was like, it depends on what you mean by friend. And they said, well, do you trust him? And I said, well, I think that at the point that we are now in our relationship, I do trust him. I trust that he's telling me the truth about what he really thinks and feels about the situation. So I feel like I have very privileged, special access to the mind of the person who put me in prison. And that is a very interesting,

awkward, but also empowering place for me to be because one of the things that really bothered me about this experience was not understanding why it happened to me. Why did this man look at a 20 year old girl with no criminal history, no motivation to commit this crime, why did he look at me and think, there's my rapist and murderer? And I didn't understand

it. And I didn't feel like demonizing him in my mind or vilifying him in my mind was going to actually give me a satisfying answer as to the why of it all. A lot of people said, well, it's just because he's a bad dude. he doesn't care what the truth is, he's just covering his ass. Like these were all really simplistic ways of framing his motivations and I didn't really buy them. So instead what I was interested in was going to the source and confronting him asking why. But to ask someone why did you hurt me, which I think is a really common thing that people who have been hurt want to know, is they want an acknowledgement that they've been hurt and they want to understand why and they they want to know if that person's not

going to hurt them anymore, not going to hurt other people. Like that's really common for people who have been hurt. The challenge is that people who hurt other people don't like to be confronted with that fact. And so how do you start a conversation that's not going to immediately become adversarial? And that was one of my biggest challenges. But I came up with this methodology that actually became so important to me that I tattooed it on my arm. So this is it. There are four steps. And the first one is find common ground. So it's this Venn diagram, find common ground. I promise you that every single person on this earth, you have something in common with them, find it."

So I asked myself, what could I and my prosecutor have in common? I didn't know this man. I didn't know what his history was, what his background was. But I did know that he, like me, was part of this really big scandalous in the media case and he very likely felt misconstrued or misrepresented also in the process, maybe dehumanized in the process. And so I reached out to him and I acknowledged that fact. I said, hey I don't know who you are. I only ever encountered you in the police office and in the courtroom where you were someone who was trying to ruin my life. So you were a big scary bogeyman and I saw you in the

media and I you know I've seen how the media represented you but I knowing from experience I know how that can be very misrepresentative. So I said to him I want to know who you really are and I hope that you might be interested to know who I really am, because I don't think you know who I really am. I don't think that you would have prosecuted me if you knew who I really am. And that was the beginning of the dialogue, this like, I went out of my way to acknowledge that he might have had noble motivations even if he was wrong. And I think this is like a really important thing is I wanted to give him radical benefit of the

doubt. Maybe, just maybe, this like horrible thing that happened to me could have been the result of understandable mistakes. And if anything, I think coming into contact with the Innocence Movement and criminal justice system stuff and reform, all the stuff that I've learned after having gone through this experience has made me realize that like some of the most horrible things can happen and can be enacted by people who have the best of intentions. And so I assumed that of him and I gave him that benefit of the doubt. And as soon as I opened that door, like, hey, you hurt me, but maybe that wasn't your intention. Maybe your intention was something else. He filled that void with

his story and his message and what he wanted me to understand about himself. And I mean, one of the wildest things about this book is that I talk about, like, I do not sugarcoat what I went through, like, and especially what he did to me. Like, I very, like, clearly set out, like, here's the fucked especially what he did to me. I very clearly set out, here's the fucked up shit he said about me in court, completely without evidence, totally made up bullshit, and it ruined my life. Here's what it is. Acknowledge these facts, and also, and also, here is a person who might have had, like in doing so, might have been coming from a place of trying to rationalize things in his own mind,

which is a thing that we all do on a regular basis. We're all just sort of interpreting our reality in the way that suits us. And so I, and I wrote this book from my perspective. I translated the entire thing into Italian before it ever got published so that I could share it with him so that he would know what I was saying about him in public, what was imminently going to come out. And his response was, I have never felt more seen That's what he told me. That sounds like something a teenage girl would say. Well, that's an interesting

observation Because it's become quite emotional Especially on his part. I don't know, I shouldn't go there too much. You're protecting his privacy? That's hilarious. Yeah. AG1 has been a long-time partner of the show and I'm excited to share some big news. The new AG1 next- a long time part of the show and I'm excited to share some big news. The new AG1 Next Gen formula is here.

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That's drinkag1.com slash Joe Rogan. Yeah. You're a very nice person. You're so much nicer than me. Well, I don't know. I've. You're so much nicer than me. Well, I don't know. I've just had really bad stuff happen to me. And like, I don't wish bad stuff upon other people. And it's a beautiful way to live your life. It really is. I mean, that's what all Christians aspire to is what you're doing. Yeah, I guess I'm not a

Christian. Radical forgiveness. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I didn't really set out for people like point to that. They're like forgiveness, forgiveness. You're doing forgiveness. And I was like, is this forgiveness or is this just communicating with him as forgiveness in some way and not having extreme anger? Well, that's the thing.

I do have extreme anger. Like that's all part of it. And this is where like the Buddhist in me comes out where you can have extreme anger towards a person and at the same time hold them in your hand as this like tender, fallible creature that is capable of violence against you, but is also capable of being hurt. Just because someone hurt you doesn't mean that they're not capable of being hurt. And I certainly don't want to be in the position of hurting someone. Like, that's just who I am. And if anything, like one thing that I've communicated to him is like, look, I don't know if you're ever going to really wrap your head around what you did to me. But if you do one day, I know that you're going to feel really, really bad. And I just want you to know that I don't wish suffering on you.

I don't. Did you ask him if he had gone over any of his previous cases and wondered whether he did the same thing to other people? Because I don't think that's something you do once. I don't think you are an ethical prosecutor who just really objectively analyzes the evidence and puts forth a case based on what you think is the facts. I don't think you do that your whole career.

And then this 20-year-old bitch, I think, she's too cute. I don't like don't think you do that your whole career and then this 20 year old bitch. I think She's too cute. I don't like how she's smiling. Yeah Yeah, there was that element to it has to be well. Yeah, I think that and I do feel like there was some kind of pornographic Nature to it like I don't know like I think that well There's a lot of men that have, like, a deep resentment for beautiful women. Just from feelings of rejection? Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they are attracted to them, or they find them to be beautiful or desirable, and they know that that woman wants to have nothing to do with them. Like, they are completely repulsive. And so you see it a lot with, unfortunately,

unattractive men. They develop a hate for women. I've seen it. I've seen it evolve over years with people that I used to be friends with. You know, just constant rejection, and then it becomes like, fuck these women, fuck them. They just want this like, okay. Put yourself in their position you're gross what are they supposed to do?

What are they supposed to do? Like be with someone that they're not attracted to to make that person feel better like that's not what people do like you have a short window of life yeah you're supposed to pursue what you like. And you're you know, your fucking hand of card sucks. Sorry. You know, this is how it goes. But that thing where, you know, they look at you like you have it too easy. You have too many gifts. There's life has given you too good a hand of cards, you know, and you should be punished. You should be knocked down a peg. You see that in particular in the media with celebrity. It's a big one with celebrity women. If something goes wrong, like they

just can't wait. Oh yeah. To dunk on them, mock them for weight gain, whatever it is. For getting out of a car in the wrong way. They were the ones who were like showing up to get up their skirt. Yeah, any sort of- I think that stuff was on purpose. Oh, is it? Yeah, I think the Paris Hilton stuff like back in the day where a lot of women were like, it was like an epidemic of girls getting out of cars.

Photographers just happened to be on the ground. Like you're a woman, you've worn skirts. It's not easy to look up someone's skirt. If you're standing up and someone gets out there, how the fuck do you get down? You'd have to be on your knees. I think they were doing it on purpose. I think it was a way of going viral

before viral was a thing, because it went away. Like when was the last time that we had an up theirt shot? Why don't you have any underwear on? That seems weird. Well, panty lines, you know, that's a real thing. Yeah, sure, but that's what G-strings were invented for, right? Those still create lines, my friend. I guess, but are you that concerned with lines that you want to go bareback?

I've not gone bareback at a premiere, I have to say. You have a little skirt on, hopping out of a car, and the way they did it. I think it was like, you know, the same people that had sex tapes that leaked air quotes that were engineered. The whole thing was, it was on purpose. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. But in terms of your, of trying to take

beautiful women down a peg, I think you're right. I also think that something that was going on in my case, that I think you also tend to see in those situations where you're trying to take beautiful women down a peg is this idea of pitting women against each other. That was a huge thing in my case where they were suggesting that, you know, here I was this like free-spirited but also hoary, you know, American girl versus

the uptight judgmental British girl and therefore they hated each other and with a vengeance, with a lethal vengeance. And then this idea of like a murder orgy appeared where this pornographic fantasy of women expressing their own violent fantasies towards each other in real life and using men as pawns in that in that game of violent hatred towards each other. I think you see that a lot you know even in like a person I write about in this book who's become a dear friend of mine is Monica Lewinsky and how I feel like people really wanted to bring her down a peg in part because they wanted to bring Hillary down a peg and the whole like, the person who actually committed the affair was sort of, I mean, he definitely

got his part, but it was all like a political game of they're trying to take down the man, but they're also taking down the woman and they're especially railroading this young woman who made a mistake. And it became known as the Monica Lewinsky scandal and not, you know, the Bill Clinton affair or whatever. Like it matters what you name a thing. And it seemed like the legacy of that and the person who became defined entirely by that scandal happened to be Monica, the one who was the person with the least amount of power and agency in that equation. Also 20 years old. Yeah, 23 years old. Yeah, who did a very normal thing, which was fall in love with a charismatic,

powerful man. And he was handsome as fuck back then. Oh, yeah. And he was the president of the United States. He was the president of the United States. He was charismatic. He was handsome as fuck back then. Oh yeah. I mean he was the President of the United States. He was the President of the United States, he was charismatic, he was handsome, he showered her with attention, and it makes sense that a young, inexperienced person would fall in love with him. And yet she was the one who got railroaded, she was the home wrecker, she was the one

who became the subject of all the rap lyrics, and her entire life and her entire identity became identified with this mistake she had made. And that was not the same thing with the president of the United States. And I think that that impulse to define women by their worst moments and to tear them down for their worst moments is is prevalent as from what I have seen. Well I think because they know it's so devastating to the person. You know what I mean? It's like there's that the bully instinct when they know that you're weak and vulnerable you know to attack. But why? To what end? People are cruel because they've been hurt you know it's the hurt

people hurt people thing You know, I think it's like schadenfreude. It just as an audience. We want yeah on a story We want a real-life story where we get to You know passively enjoy the destruction of another human being right and also you don't know her so you're disassociated Yeah, right Like if she was your friend and you did that you'd have to be special kind of monster Like that woman Linda trip. Yeah, who did it all that's a special kind of monster, right? Special kind of monster who trots that out to the whole world to try to take down Bill Clinton Yeah, which didn't even work. No, and that's what's fascinating. It worked to destroy Monica But also like you when you look at Bill

to destroy Monica. But also, when you look at Bill Clinton, this handsome president, and then you look at Linda Tripp, who is very unattractive, that also plays in, like, I want to take him down, too. And probably I want to take her down as well. There's a lot of like, fuck everybody else. There's a lot of that. You know, when you're unseen, to use the same vernacular,

and then you see other people getting attention, and it's just like the fact that she did it and she knew her, but also this is the game of cards that they're playing, this is the house of cards, this is literally what they do any time they have a chance in the political realm to use any weapon. Right.

Any window, any vulnerability. Anything. It's the dirtiest game in the world. It's a disgusting game. If you get sucked into it, you'll find that out. I don't want anything to do with it. It's the most evil. It really is.

When I see people that are running for president, I'm like, what are you doing? I know. Why would you do that to yourself? Yeah, and then you have to spend the rest of your life with secret service following you around so you can't exist in the world as a normal human being. I do feel like there is... You have to be a special kind of person in order to be attracted to something like that. Yeah Ironically, that's the kind of person that's attracted to that in general is not the kind of person you want in a leadership position right

You know, which is like wow, what do we do that? Yeah. Yeah, so is democracy completely and utterly flawed because it relies upon the ambition of the wrong people. Or heroes or legitimate heroes like someone who's like, you know, I'm going to tolerate this. I'm going to carry the burden of this on my back because I think I can help people. But does anyone ever like actually arrive at the like at the seat of the president as that person? Like, here's the question. Do they stay that person? Because I used to think Obama was that person.

I really did. You know, it was like, wow, we've got a good one. You know, yeah, I was sad. I missed out on that. Yeah, it was pretty cool. But in retrospect, you know, when looking back, like probably not really like probably got corrupted by the system or was corrupt originally, you know, and is now willing to openly lie.

God. Yeah. It's dark. It's dark. You know, and I think it's just a... It's a strange social position that I don't think is manageable for anyone. I don't think the human mind is prepared to be in that kind of a position of power and not have it completely distort what you are.

And then there's the relationships that you have to have with all these various politicians and then special interest groups and lobbyists and then foreign leaders and then... Yeah, how do you manage all of that? Heads of defense contracting companies like what? Yeah. Can I tell you a story? Yes please. Okay. So this story didn't actually make it in my book, but it is one that I wanted to tell

you because it talks about how my weird relationship with other people who are in positions of power like police officers, right? Like, you know, I'm an advocate of criminal justice reform. I talk a lot about, like, I go and testify in front of my, you know, state congress trying to get certain laws passed to protect, you know, innocent people. And one thing that I like to point out is that I'm not anti-law enforcement. If anything, I was a victim of crime before I became a victim of the criminal justice system. Like someone broke into my home and raped and murdered my roommate and then I called the cops and then the cops went on to betray me. And, but

that doesn't mean that there isn't like, I'm not one of those, you know, fuck all the police, we don't need them, you know, abolish the whole system. That's not what I believe. But as someone who has had this complicated experience with police, I don't really know what to do when something bad goes down. And I want to tell you a story about something bad that went down. It was in LA. I was staying at a friend's house with my husband and our two kids.

We were doing work down there. And our friends were not there. But in the middle of the night, we hear someone yelling out in the, you know, out in the street. We think there's some drunk guy out there, but it gets closer and closer and closer until finally there is a huge bang. And my husband gets up in his tighty-whities and says one thing to me, call the police before he marches downstairs. We were upstairs in the second story and we hear a bang, we hear yelling. He goes down there in his underwear and I don't know if the last thing I'm ever going to hear from my husband at that point is call the police,

which is an interesting final words to get from the love of your life when you're me. an interesting final words to get from the love of your life when you're me. And my, my you know, infant son is crying, my you know, two year old daughter at the time is going, what's going on? And I'm trying to calm him while reassure her while looking around the room thinking, how do I barricade a door? and can I jump out of a window with two small children? All of that before I think dial 911 because the last time that I dialed the equivalent of 911 to call for help, I got thrown into prison. I realized that there's nothing I can do to protect my kids, so I call 911. And eventually, you know, my husband is able to get this intruder to leave the house. The police arrive. And I have a very strange encounter with them because they are very nice to me.

And I was not expecting that. And they are very nice to me. And I was not expecting that. And they are very nice to my daughter. And they give her a nice little, you know, police badge. And I'm sitting here thinking, great, now I'm going to have to throw a police-themed birthday party for her because now she's going to be super into police. And I'm just like, what is happening to my life? And I'm scared that they're going to recognize me and I'm scared that they're going to think maybe she faked a break-in.

Like all of that is going on in my head and I don't know how to resolve that. Somebody broke into my home once, murdered my roommate, broke into the place I was staying again, thankfully didn't murder anybody. But like, how do I make sense of my relationship with people who are empowered to protect me, but also are empowered to hurt me? What do I do about that? You tell me, Joe. What do I do? There's no way I could know what's going through your mind. You know, the experience that you had is that no one can even pretend to have those thoughts in their head because this is not just paranoid fantasy. This is your actual lived experience for years. Yeah. That's a

good question. What had happened? Like the bang? Was it someone kicking down the door? Yeah, he had kicked in the door through the deadbolt. What was the yelling? The yelling was he was just... Schizophrenic? Yeah. He thought that someone had stole that house from him and he was yelling for some name of a person who didn't live there. Clearly was just like either confused or mentally ill in some capacity, and thankfully not armed. But like my husband didn't know when he walked

down the stairs in his underwear without any, like he grabbed a broom on his way down and that was, he was between putting himself and a broom between whoever this person was who had just kicked in the front door through the deadbolt and his family. And that might've been the last time I ever saw him. And I did not know what to do. I try to joke about it now, where I actually did a standup bit about it a while back about how I was testing my butt to see if it was bouncy enough to jump out of the window and bounce. But when I think back on it, it's still scary.

And I don't like how I feel right now that when I'm scared, I'm supposed to call the police, but I'm also do advocacy work for, you know, I'm now on the board of an organization called the Innocence Center. Innocencecenter.org, which by the way, just got a bunch of federal funding taken away, thanks Elon. You'd think that they would be interested in supporting organizations that clean up the messes of the criminal justice system, but apparently not. So if you want to support us, innocencecenter.org.

How did you... What happened that they got their funding taken away? What was the circumstances like? I mean, there's a federal funding that is designed for innocence organizations. And I think what I heard is that there are certain words that sort of became taboo within the administration that if you were using these words or these terminologies that they associate with like DEI, that're that sort of puts you on the list of being cut for federal funding and one of those words was like

the word fair and in a organization that is interested in justice and for in getting innocent people out of prison the word fair is going to come up quite a bit. So is this just an algorithm? They're just scanning the mission statement of whatever these organizations are? Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a first step is they'll just use this... They're gonna use algorithms and AI to help them identify potential things to cut. And I think as a new Innocence Organization, we were considered not worthy of the federal funding that we have relied on and to help innocent people.

And now we're... Are you one of the founders of this organization? Me? No, I'm on the board. You're on the board. But yes, this is formerly the California Innocence Project that has since sort of turned into the Innocence Center. But you're seeing this all across the board of Innocence projects of getting their federal funding taken away.

And there's no accusations of impropriety or misuse of funds or high salaries for certain individuals or nothing? Nope. Nope. Just it's deprioritized because I think we're considered leftist organizations potentially, I don't know. But I know that like, I have always thought that innocence and getting and justice were bipartisan issues. And I thought that we had been making great strides in sort of welcoming in both liberal and conservative partners in this ongoing fight. But because these things disproportionately impact people of color, you're going to see

language around that that acknowledges that fact. And I think that that has been sort of put in, we are, innocence organizations are now being put into DEI camps and we're being stripped of funding. And I think that that's, I hope that that's an oversight issue and that they're going to recognize the mistake that they're making. But as it stands right now, innocence organizations,

not just the one that I'm associated with, are scrambling to get the funding that they were promised to continue doing the things that cost money, like filing all of their work and going through all of the casework and doing the DNA tests and doing investigations to see if you can reach the witnesses that maybe have changed their stories in all these years. It takes a lot of money and resources to prove a person's innocence. You have to reinvestigate a case and we don't have the funding that we used to. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Speed dating is an interesting concept, isn't it? Setting an allotted amount

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And you know Josh? Yeah. I mean, I've never met him personally, but... He was with the Innocence Project, and now he's with the Ike Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice. And same kind of work. Ironically, Ike Perlmutter is very close friends with Trump. And so.

I mean, I would have thought that that would have been of interest to Trump considering his. I think it's a baby with the bath water type deal. Right. There's a lot of what you would call almost like slush fund NGOs where they're inappropriately moving funds around and doing stuff and I don't know if you ever seen any of Mike Benz's work but he essentially says that USAID is really there to do things that are too dirty for the CIA. So the extraordinary amount of money that was being moved around, there's a certain percentage of it that was

inappropriately being used. I imagine so. Yes, an enormous percentage. So there's a lot of money. But unfortunately, there's a lot of good that also is coming out of that money. And that's what's difficult. It's like, you know, when you round up all the quote unquote gang members, right? And you fly them to El Salvador. Are you sure they're all gang members? Do you care? Right, exactly. I think that's... Do you care or is it just like, we're just here to clean things up,

and if we break a few eggs to make an omelet. Right. Are innocent people the price of us getting to be efficient? Don't become a monster when you're fighting monsters. Yeah. And that's what I think we're brushing up against right now. And as someone who really is just interested in keeping, especially this issue, this is a human, we all should be on the same side about this.

100%. Yeah. Why is it being turned into this left or right issue? Well, maybe I can get this in front of Josh and he can present it to some people and, you know, have them reconsider their position. That would be great. I would, you know, and if you need to put me in contact, like, I would be happy to. You know, one of the things through working with Josh and, you know, just through this

podcast, we've gotten a lot of people released that were wrongfully convicted and you know when you go over the amount of corruption that's involved and I Think there's an issue with human beings Whenever there's a binary position a one a zero, you win or you lose. Yes, the adversarial system. It's like I have to be I have to win this side and I cannot at all, like acknowledge some truth that might be to the other side.

Like, and then you have this game where you hire like if you are a guilty person, you hire the best defense attorneys that probably even know you're guilty, but their job is to get you off by any means necessary to... Well, their job is to make the government prove your guilt, right? That's what a technically a defense attorney who's really good... Well, that's not really what they're doing. They're trying to get you out of jail. Fair, fair.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. The goal being if you can't actually prove it, then... Well, their goal is to win as often as possible so that they're the person like this. This is the guy you want Although I have talked to some really interesting defense attorneys The defense attorneys represented Larry Nassar for example famously for those who don't remember was Nassar, for example, famously for those who don't remember was molesting young gymnasts. You remember him? Yeah, the Olympics guy. Yeah, yeah, and I interviewed them because it was two

women who represented him and so a lot of people were like, how dare you represent this man as a woman? How could you? And their position was, well we didn't represent him to prove him innocent. We had him plead guilty to these crimes. We just feel that everyone deserves to have a defender. We're defenders. We represent people in the law. And they were getting demonized for even taking him on as a client.

And I thought that was interesting because they weren't trying to get him off. They were just trying to have to represent due process. And I felt like that was a really interesting case of people confusing the, what is the role of a defense attorney. And I think you're right, like some defense attorneys really don't care if their clients are guilty or innocent because they are also in this adversarial system. And so they are also in this position of just wanting to win and wanting to make the lives of, you know, law enforcement difficult. And they're willing to throw victims under the bus in the process. Like I've had really frank conversations with friends of mine in the innocence world where

they talk about how they were trained to just destroy a victim in order to diminish their credibility in court and to really put them in a really bad position so they didn't want to pursue justice for themselves. And I think that, and they look back and go, oh my God, I can't believe that that's how I was trained to be a defense attorney. But like that was just part of the game. And I think that's where this whole course of justice gets completely distorted. Because it's like, well, what is the what is the point of all of this?

Like it should be about like, arriving at at the truth and then doing and then having there be like some recognized consequences for acknowledging what really happened. Like we need to address the issue, which is somebody got hurt by someone else. What do we do? Now what? And instead it's become, well, I'm going to win it. Like I'm on this team, you're on this team, fight, fight, fight. Let's see who wins.

And as a result, the whole issue of truth gets distorted and becomes about making the best story that captures the people's attention. And I think, I mean, that was a huge lesson for me, was realizing that the truth didn't matter. Like, nobody cared about the truth, they cared about the story. And was it a story that spoke to them? And was it a story that lingered for them? And that's, you know, an ongoing thing that I write about is like, okay, here's this crazy

story that is not true, that took over my life, and that still has this huge role. Like I'm still in conversation with that crazy story that was written about me and and the fact that like my entire identity is now wrapped up in the death of my friend that I had nothing to do with and I'll forever be defined by because it's such a captivating story. And because the prosecutor was dead set on winning and wasn't necessarily interested in the truth. What he says, and it's very, again, it goes back to like, what are we telling ourselves and what is the cognitive bias? And I think this is where it gets super interesting because winning is interpreted in some people's minds as doing their duty, right?

Like the way that my prosecutor has always talked about it with me is that he maintains that he was doing his duty. This was his job. His job was to make a case that made logical sense to him based upon certain premises, and then to win that case in court. That was his job. That was his duty. And he believes that he

was doing the right thing because that's what he was trained and incentivized to do. In the same way that like, you know, journalists, if you ask journalists back who covered the case back in the day, they'll be like, well, we were doing our job. Our job was to sell the best story that we could to our audience. Right? And so that's when it gets fucked up. Because how have our institutions that we've relied on to be truth-seeking institutions been corrupted from the inside by ultimately what is a question of money or power. When politics gets brought into the equation with criminal

justice, suddenly, you know, your prosecutor is now wanting to win cases, not because they're the right cases to win, but because they want to be elected. Like all of that gets distorted and the motivations behind all our institutions become warped. Trevor Burrus But with the media, it's even more disgusting because it's not about politics. It's literally just about getting people to pay attention to their story and buy newspapers or click on links. That's it. Right.

And then they hold the audience accountable for the kinds of stories that they are then incentivized to write. They say, well, you know, I wouldn't have been writing this story if you weren't clicking on it. And it's like this vicious cycle. That's crazy. It's like I wouldn't have robbed your house if you didn't have nice stuff. Exactly. Exactly. That's fucking crazy. But like that's how if you're in that little echo chamber of a system and that's what your reward structure is, of course that's what you're gonna end up delivering if you're somebody who doesn't have the introspection

to question like, okay, wait, what am I doing? And what is the point of all of this? And do you have certain principles? But again, the people who rise to the top are maybe the ones who are willing to question those principles in order to achieve certain ends. Yes, yeah. And then there's also the problem with

you're working for a corporation if you're in the news If you're not an independent journalist who has like rock-solid personal ethics You're working for a corporation and your job is to make money for your shareholders Ultimately and the way you do that is to get as many people to click on those links as possible And maybe the person who's on the ground has a certain vision for what they want They're like on the ground reporting to do but then once it gets in the hands of editors and other editors, like it becomes completely warped from the thing that they were originally reporting on because the person who's over here is so divorced from the actual on the ground story and they know instead

the story that's going to sell. Yeah. So yeah, it's dark. I mean, it's the same sort of distortion. Excuse me. Salute. Sorry. It's the same sort of distortion when you were talking about prosecutors just trying to win. It's this thing where, and ultimately, it's a severe distortion of what the best-case scenario is. The best-case scenario is prosecutors don't care about winning. They care about finding truly guilty people.

And in cases where someone, whether they withhold evidence that could have exonerated an innocent person or whether they distort things or twist things around in order to win. They should be forever removed from that system. You should never be allowed to do that. But this is Kamala Harris did that and rose to be vice president and almost became president. And she is absolutely guilty of doing that. Yeah, I know. She tried to withhold DNA evidence that would have exonerated someone. I know. She was not a popular choice among the innocence community. I'll tell you that. Josh Dubin broke her down on my show. Oh, were they here together? No. No, no, no, he broke down what she was, but when she was running for president. Oh, were they here together?

No. Oh, okay. No, no, no. He broke down what she was guilty of when she was a prosecutor in California. Yeah, no. It wasn't. And that's why I was so mad that our party never actually gave us a choice. Right.

There was no primary. No, there was no primary. They were just like, here's the person now. And if you don't vote for her, you're a bad person. Exactly. You're a fascist. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. the person now and if you don't vote for you're a bad person exactly you're a fascist yes yeah okay yeah no it was that that this whole like that's also just trying to win yeah it's the same kind of thing it's just the the focus is

on winning yeah at what cost I mean and then that's a very slippery slope because if you're willing to accept that guess what guess what that that slope keeps slipping mm-hmm and then next thing you know you don't have breaks you have to to accept that. Guess what? Guess what? That slope keeps slipping. And then next thing you know. You don't have breaks. You have to put a fucking blinder on, because you're a part of the problem. You're a part of what's destroying society.

So then you have to reshape your own personal narrative and lie to yourself about what you're doing and why you're doing it. Right. A little bit of self-brainwashing. And that fascinates me, like in conversations with my prosecutor, how has he convinced himself that he's the good guy? And how has that changed when I have approached him, not as an adversary, but as someone someone who is I wouldn't say like tolerant because I've never put myself in a position of sort of saying oh what you

did was not a big deal like when I approached him I was like what you did was a big deal and you were wrong and you hurt people but like acknowledging his humanity and the complexity of him and acknowledging that like he's not an evil person. Well, what is evil? Intentional malice, maybe? That seems like he was doing it intentionally. If he was paying attention to the facts of the case, I mean, there was DNA evidence,

there was all sorts of stuff that pointed to you not being the guilty party, and they ignored that. If that's not evil. I mean, what he did, it's interesting. He wrote a whole book about the case, and he talked about how when he first arrived at the scene, he immediately knew that it was a conspiracy because he looked at the broken window, how the person had actually broken into our home and said, there's no way, zero chance that a burglar would have broken into a house this way.

He just was like 100% convinced that immediately that the break-in was staged. And if you take that, if you and your brain truly believe that, then what logically follows is a lot of what he then came up with. Well, someone in the house is trying to cover up for a crime that they were involved in. Who lives in that house? Well, there are three other girls, one of whom was in Rome, one of whom is another Italian girl

who was with her boyfriend and friends, and one of whom is the American girl who was with her boyfriend that night, but who also happened to be the one who called the police and brought attention to the house. So maybe because we found her at the scene of the crime, like all of it sort of starts to like make Logical sense if you begin with a false premise, how did he reconcile that in the book in his book? Yeah

I mean he makes logical leaps so he goes, okay Well, then we discovered that you know all of this DNA of the person who actually Committed the crime right? Like, you know They finally get the DNA back and it's all pointing to this guy who has a history of breaking and entering and aggression towards women. And he doesn't go, oh, no, we made a mistake. He goes, oh, how can now he be involved in this thing that I know Amanda's involved in because I know the break-in was staged. And you know, like, so these, the, this is how a person with good,

with genuinely good intentions can, can have false beliefs that then logic, from which one can logically derive an insane story that requires like him to now believe, like one of the things that I pointed out to him that just like drives me nuts that he continues to like Somehow hang on to is this idea that I was in a threesome with like I was in a three-way relationship with my actual boyfriend Raphael a and this burglar Rudy Gidey and I was like Where are you coming up with that? And he was like well Whenever I interviewed Rudy like he talks about interviewing, you know, interrogating Rudy, Rudy always seemed to have affectionate things to say about.

He always seemed to like be interested in you. And from that, I can logically deduce that you guys had a relationship. And I was like, we, we, like, I didn't even know his name. There's no record of us ever communicating with each other. No one ever like saw us hanging out with each other. Like, what are you talking about? And he's like, well, if he was involved in the crime and you're involved in the crime and he's sort of talking about, you know, you in an affectionate way, then logically, it makes sense that you were in this, you know, three way relationship with Raphael and Rudy. And I'm like, that's not true.

And he's like, well, that's what made logical sense to me at the time. I think the issue is an egotistic idiot that has power. That's really what I think it is. It's certainly someone who has a belief and a confidence in their own abilities as a logical thinker. And I think anyone who is in that kind of position has to believe in themselves in that kind of way. But not just that, like you have too much power. Like there's not enough oversight,

you have too much power. And then you say something and if your initial assertion is incorrect, you then have to defend it. then you do mental gymnastics try to defend it right the expense of your fucking life Yes He was willing to put you away forever like he had to know at some point in time in the back of his stupid brain He had to know that you were innocent and he was willing to push forward and concoct some sort of a three-way relationship Narrative they still sticks to, fuck that guy. Well and sometimes that's what my brain says, you know, sometimes I...

Your brain should say that. You know, I mean, forgiveness is really important, but some people just can't forgive. Like some people it's like, no, you need to come to grips with the fact that you're a piece of shit That's what's wrong here It's not me forgiving you and you having this hall pass to just to be a piece of shit because you had this theory that you're still accusing me of No, that's that's not you're bad at what you do and sometimes people are bad at what they do Sometimes you get bad teachers.

You get bad cops. Sometimes you get a bad electrician. Your house catches fire. Some people suck at what they do. And to have this eternal forgiveness. Sometimes it's not smart to do that. Well, certainly. And I think that's really-

Is he still working as a prosecutor? No, no. He's retired. He has retired. He should be in jail. Like, literally, he's retired. He has retired. He should be in jail Like literally I do not wish jail upon him That's sweet, but that's a crime Like what he did it was not just a crime, but it was a conspiracy

yeah, I I would have to say that I Agree that there's I always wanted to I always wondered where the adults were in the room like you know the whole first two years of my imprisonment I was like this is all a huge mistake and it's really obviously a huge mistake and winner when are like the mommies and daddies gonna show up and say okay kids stop your squabbling like let's straighten things out there's no mommies and dad There's no mommies and daddies.

There are no mommies and daddies. That's the thing that freaked me out. Yeah. It's like we're all adults now and this is all we are. We're just a bunch of screaming toddlers, just screaming at each other constantly. And here I am now, I feel in a way trying to mother feel in a way trying to mother my prosecutor through his, you know, psychological tantrums. Ugh. Which is a weird position to be in because now that I've, you know, developed the relationship that I've developed with him, I care about him. I don't think that you can... I set out to understand him. I wanted to understand him. But in the process

of really understanding a human being and having them be really open to you. I don't know. I feel like you inevitably begin to care about this person even in their flawed fragility as a human being. And so on the one hand, I'm very angry at him to this day. And on the other hand, I care about him and I have to give him some props. He didn't have to respond to me. He didn't have to meet with me. He didn't have to sit there and hear me talk about how he had fucked up my life and he shouldn't have. I did not like it's not that like me being kind to him does not mean me tolerating injustice

And it does not mean me not setting boundaries and it does not mean me sugarcoating what really happened like he knows what I think really happened and He says well You know we can disagree about our perspectives in some ways, but ultimately what matters is that you reached out to me and saw me as a human being. And in response, I also inevitably came to see you as a human being and I care about you. And so in a way, like we're still in this awkward dance of like one part of us is stuck in that adversarial system and one part of

us is in a non, you know, adversarial, very like accepting of all the things space. And we're paradoxically existing in both of them at the same time. And I think that that's just kind of how life is. Like, you know, one of the paradoxes of life is that like, if you really just sit down and sit with yourself and your life just the way it is right now, if you really do just like notice like right now you and me here we are talking. We are okay. You and me we are good. And also there's still fucked up shit in my life and there's still fucked up shit in your life and and things could be better and all of those things can be true at the same time. Like you know I'm

still fighting to clear my name in Italy. I don't know if you have you kept up with like the latest with my case. Oh, yeah. So so I've been cleared of like all the crazy, you know, horrible murder orgy, all of that stuff cleared. The thing that remains and this is just the bane of my fucking existence, is when they cleared me of having anything to do with the crime, they left open the possibility that I was present when the crime occurred. And I believe the reason that they did this

was because they wanted to find me guilty of something. And the thing that they found me guilty of was the way lesser crime on the list of all the crimes that were there, which was slander. They accused me of knowingly and willingly falsely accusing an innocent person of having committed this crime because during my interrogation, I was coerced into implicating myself and my boss, Patrick Lumumba, of committing this crime. And I immediately retracted it, all of that, but that was one of the things that they were holding me accountable for. And they, to this day, I am still convicted in Italy of knowingly and willingly accusing an innocent man.

And for me to knowingly and willingly accuse this innocent man, I would have to have been at the house and known who really was the murderer at the moment that I falsely accused this innocent person. Like, I would have had to know that he was definitively innocent for this to be the case. And for that to be true, I would have to be physically present at the crime, even if I was not participating in it. So the legal standing right now to this day is that I was there and that when I was interrogated, I knowingly and falsely accused an innocent person.

I appealed this, by the way, to the European Court of Human Rights, and they ruled in my favor. They said that because I had been denied the right to have an attorney and an interpreter when I was being interrogated, that none of that should ever have been, I should never have been convicted of that. And I took that back to Italy. I took that ruling back to Italy and they overturned it. I was actually acquitted of that for a second, but then sent back for retrial recently. And recently, yeah,

this is 18 years later, recently was put back on trial for that. This was last year. And I was found guilty. Again. Oh my god. On the basis, not even of the statements that the police coerced me into signing, but on my retraction. So I hand wrote a retraction of those statements that the police coerced me into signing.

And I was like, I'm so confused. I can't testify. I don't know if Patrick did it or not. I just don't know. And they said well even a confused statement where you're not sure what the truth is if you were physically president of the crime is is Slander and you falsely accused an innocent man that you knew to be innocent and so but they have no proof that you were there Exactly, so we're in this like cyclical thing where they're like don't want to admit that they fucked up

That's what I think and I'm at this point where I'm like, okay now what? Because I'm definitively convicted of this thing and like the legal truth in this case does not Represent the actual truth in this are they trying to protect themselves from some sort of a civil suit Maybe I think even more than that, I think they're trying to protect themselves from admitting that they tortured an innocent girl. Oh my God. So they can say, well, she is guilty. She did do this.

She's a guilty person. And so it's not crazy for us to think that she might've been involved in the murder because she or she is. Or was there at least. She probably lied about being there. Yeah. crazy for us to think that she might have been involved in the murder because here she is. Or was there at least. She probably lied about being there. Yeah. Jesus Christ.

And all they were ever able to do was prove that I lived in the house that this happened in. Like sure, my DNA is in my house. It's not anywhere near Meredith's body or where the crime occurred, but they're saying that like I was there. And sort of this like cyclical sort of reasoning, like Amanda said she was there, therefore she was there, therefore she said she was... You know, it's this insane cyclical reasoning, and I'm at the point where I have to ask myself,

how do I fight this, and if so, do I? And that's where this whole question of freedom comes in. Do I have to definitively prove my innocence in a court of law to feel that I have definitively proved my innocence? Or do I need to definitively prove my innocence in the court of public opinion in order to feel free or to feel like I'm not, regardless of whether I definitively prove my innocence or not, am I ever going to be free of this?

Is this ever going to be not touching me and impacting my life? And the answer that I've come to is, well, no, in the way that, like, any of our experiences have come to define us as human beings. And in a way, it's like, another way of reframing this is, okay, these are my credentials now. Like, I went to the, I didn't go to four years of master's degree in poetry. I got a master's degree in whatever this is, being fucked. And so like, and I've learned things from this. I've learned things about the criminal justice system. I like I can

see things that need to be fixed that have our really common-sense fixes to. Like there is no reason why we shouldn't be just recording any kind of communication, like any time that anyone is being questioned by anyone in law enforcement, there's no reason why we shouldn't be recording it. And I'm not talking about even just suspects because like there's been a whole world of advocacy

around like recording interrogations, right? Like custod recording interrogations, right? Custodial interrogations and especially making it so that police officers can't lie to you when you're being interrogated. Because that was a huge thing that impacted me as a young, confused, overwhelmed human being, is police lying to me and telling me that they have proof that I was there when the crime occurred.

And it made me feel like I was insane. And so the problem of police lying to me and telling me that they have proof that I was there when the crime occurred and it made me like feel like I was insane. And so like the problem of police lying to you is not just that it's like a bullying technique, but it warps your sense of reality and you start to question yourself. And so there's psychological research to show that there are very negative consequences for police lying to you during interrogation. But at the very least, if you record it, you can sort of track how that is impacting a person who is being, who is a suspect. The wild west of all of this is eyewitnesses or anyone else who is being questioned by police

because there's no Miranda rights. Like as a person who is being questioned by police, you don't really have rights. Like you don't have, like as a person who is being questioned by police, you don't really have rights. Like you don't have, like one of the things that they say in my case is that I never had the right to an attorney because I wasn't a suspect, I was a witness. And so like to this day in Italy, there's like this resistance to the idea that I was like coerced into, I was even interrogated at all because there's this like little loophole where they say, oh, you weren't interrogated, you were interviewed. Oh, you weren't interviewed, you were questioned.

They just changed the language. But what's ultimately happening is the same thing. You are stuck in a room with a law enforcement officer who may or may not be lying to your face and bullying you and you don't know if you're free or not to go because the door is closed and it doesn't feel like it. And so for me I think that if you consider how many wrongful convictions happen because of misidentification by witnesses or the number of times that like witnesses say, well, I wasn't really sure that it was him, but the police sort of coaxed me or pressured me into saying it was him and let sort of made it known to me that it was him. Like there are lots of things that are happening behind closed doors that we really don't have an excuse for not fixing when every single one of us has a recording device in our pocket at all times. And the amount of resistance to getting just really common sense

changes like that to happen from law enforcement lobbies is just so frustrating as someone who shows up again and again and again to try to make, because it seems like this adversarial thing, like we're all on the same side. It's not like victims' rights versus defendants' rights. It's not law enforcement versus, you know, innocence. It's like we're all on the same page. Why can't we just acknowledge a true thing? That's been one of my biggest frustrations in this world is like feeling like we should all be on the same side and we should be making common sense changes and that don't, you know.

That's the way the system is structured, you know. There's two sides trying to win. And when you lose, you don't like to lose. Right. And so people would cheat to win. But like lose, what are you losing? You know. But they're playing a game. I mean, it's your life and it's other people's lives, it's innocent people's

lives, but it's also guilty people's lives. But why doesn't like a law enforcement officer look at something that happened to me? Actually you know what, I take that back. Plenty of law enforcement people have talked to me and said like we are so sorry for what happened to you. The ones who weren't involved, that's the problem. The problem is do you look away when you are involved? You know, how many law enforcement officers will stick their neck out if they think their partner overstepped their boundaries and got someone to admit to something that maybe they did or didn't do withheld evidence that may or may not have exonerated someone like there's steps along the way on the road

to evil right and no one gets rewarded for sticking their neck out no or for holding their friends accountable yeah you get exon you get excommunicated from your tribe it's very dangerous you know So how do we motivate any other, like how... It's a real problem. It's a giant conundrum. It's a real problem in the way this system is structured. And the feeling that you have to like, in order to do the right thing, you just have to switch sides, like that really bothers me. Also because like one thing that I would love to see more of is more of a collaboration between victims' rights advocates and innocence rights advocates.

But oftentimes you see us pitted against each other as if... I've always felt that the criminal justice system never did enough for victims. The only compensation that victims are really given is the idea that you're going to punish the perpetrator. And I've always wanted to know how is the system going to help the victim rebuild their life and take back and like reclaim what can be reclaimed of their experience and be uplifted? And that's supposedly where the civil supposedly, but like you're, you're, you're suing the person who committed the crime and are you ever actually going to get any money from them? Are you like, sometimes money's awarded to families by the state?

You know, there's those but I mean is that enough like is monies is that enough, you know No, I don't think so. I think that people need more support than that But what is the support though? Like what would make it right? support than that. Right, but what is the support though? What would make it right? Well, I think everyone's... Overhaul of the system. Yeah.

It's really the only way to truly make it right is to find... I mean, if you're a person like... I think your approach to this all, this radical acceptance and forgiveness is very, very, very beautiful. It's amazing that you can do it. It's amazing that you think the way you think. And I used you as an example the other day, we were having this conversation about horrible things

that have happened to people that have made that person a beautiful person. Because you went through this insane thing, but on the other end of it, you came out this really interesting person. Oh, well, they are not. You really are. I use you as an example of things that don't break you, but that you would never want to

wish on anyone else. But then the result of that, as this person comes out, extraordinary. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot of the obstacles, the way kind of stuff. I mean, it's a lot of stuff that I write about in the book, actually, is one of the things that my goal with this book was to try to, like, yes, what happened to me is like, oh, crazy story happened to a girl one time. But also there are like universal lessons and truths that I've derived from my experience

that make me, and when I communicate them, they make me feel less ostracized or less like singled out as a human being. And one of those is like, there is opportunity in every tragedy. And I think that what my tragedy challenged me to do I think that what my tragedy challenged me to do was to not be broken by it. And my definition of being broken by it was coming out of it a person who was angry and embittered and diminished by this experience. And I just, the rebellious side of me was like, fuck that. What matters to me? What matters to me is the truth and

is compassion. Curiosity, compassion. Those are things that I genuinely care about. And having the courage to approach human beings and situations that are painful and that are wrong with the open heart that it requires to have compassion and genuine curiosity. That is what I wanted to define me. I did not want this horrible experience to define me on its terms. I wanted to define me on my own terms. And I think the challenge that any one of us has is remembering what even our terms are when we're feeling sort of overwhelmed with the existential crisis of it all. And I think one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they are stuck, they are fixated, they dwell on the life that they should have lived. Instead of acknowledging and accepting

that this is the life that they are living. And when you are acting in the world as if you are living the life that you should have lived, you are inevitably becoming ineffective. Like if I were to approach the world and be like, my prosecutor never should have done this to me and my, I never should have gone to prison and people should never should have villainized me in the press. I would just find myself debilitated, utterly

debilitated by the fact that reality is other than that. And instead I go, well, all of that happened, now what? And by accepting reality and life as it is, I can now become a more effective agent in my life. I don't want to live my life acting and feeling and thinking in ways that are not going to be effective. And so instead, what happens and the radical acceptance of it all is truly coming from a place of not, I'm not trying to be Christian about it. I'm just trying to like not be the completely and utterly overwhelmed and disempowered person that I was when I was in prison. Like, I lost so much. I had so little control of my life.

And I think in the end, all of us do. I feel like I weirdly had a midlife crisis when I was 20 because my entire life fell apart or I was on I was I was put on this this track, this train that just like left the station and was going on its own. And there was really nothing I could do to stop it. And so okay. Now what? That's a great way to put it like you're on a train that you can't stop. Yeah, I mean what you've done is admirable. I mean the approach that you take is really, I mean if I- Is it admirable? Is it self-serving? Like is it just like-

No, no, it's not self-serving. I mean obviously it's self-serving, but that's a good thing. I mean you're serving yourself in the best possible way and to not be completely defined by your being victimized. You've risen above it. I mean, just the fact that you've contacted the prosecutor and tried to reach out and talk to him as a human being and try to find out. Kasey Panetta And accept him where he's at. Like, this is where you're at.

Well, he's a kind of a victim in a way because he shouldn't have had the kind of power that he had. There's no way to tell. There's no checks and balances that are put in place to make sure the person's ego is not overwhelming them to the point where their initial idea of a conspiracy. And he's also not in a vacuum. There were other people around him who were building him up and supporting that story.

Well, it's also like he's in a position of power. They're underneath him. There's this weird structure that's in place. All of that can be true. And I can accept that as also true. And I think there's this like weird resistance that people have to accepting the context around a person. Maybe because you realize that if you accept the context around the person, that feeling

of self-righteousness that you're ultimately grasping onto dissipates because it does inevitably dissipate. But I think that's again, that's a symptom of someone dwelling on the life that they should have lived instead of accepting the life that they have. And I just find that to be a waste of time. It is not just a waste of time. It's the opposite of self-serving it kind of destroys you from within because you know, it's not true, right? yeah, and so you're bullshitting yourself as you're bullshitting the world and

That's who you are now. Yeah, I think that is a scary trap that victims Can fall into is like how you then become self-destructive in your own mind as a result of someone having been destructive towards you. That is, I think that is the deepest tragedy of hurt is how it can then become implosive. And I did not want to implode. I was scared to implode. I saw a lot of people around me in prison imploding, and I did not want that to be me. It's an insane mental resolve to not, and that's the trap that most people are going to fall into. And to a lesser extent, he's a victim as well.

He's a victim of his own actions and it will haunt him. I mean, he's defined by that as well. Now, particularly, that everybody knows that you're innocent and that you've been proven innocent and then in the retrial, you got proven again. And so that's him. That's over his head, everywhere he goes. He wrongly prosecuted and jailed you for a murder you did not commit.

And he has to live with that every day when he wakes up and he looks in the mirror, that's who you are, bitch, forever. And you could dance around, you know, I was doing my job and this, you can have, you know, that's where you kind of try to find some sort of No, no, you did this thing You were wrong you your ego whatever the fuck it was that led you to

come up with the initial theory and then try to use confirmation bias to Reinforce it at every step of the way. That's you. And if he doesn't admit that, he will go to his grave haunted. And I think what's a really interesting thing for me is discovering what can come from approaching someone recognizing that. So when I approached him, I approached him in a really unconventional way, right? Like I'm trying to find common ground with this person. I'm trying to, I'm deeply genuinely curious about this person. I am primed to feel compassion for this person because that is just

the mental and intentional space that I put myself in, in approaching him. And the surprising dividends that arise from that, because I think everyone is evolving. No one is static. Even he is on his own journeys, on his own path. And I'm not in control of his path. But that doesn't mean that I can't be a very compelling influence of all the people in the world who could be nice to him and have that have an impact on him. Me. And like recognizing, like I didn't really fully comprehend that until I sat down with him. And like I sort of in my mind, I realized what it looked like from my position.

Like here's this person who had this overwhelming impact on my life. And to this day, like continue, like this story that he made up, like took over my life and continues to take over my life. And to this day, like, continually, like, this story that he made up, like, took over my life and continues to take over my life, like, this is what I'm gonna live with for the rest of my life, is because of him. This person who has had this outsized influence on my well-being and my personhood and my existence, this guy, I sit down across from him and I'm nice to him and I walk away from that encounter realizing that his well-being depends on me much more so than my well-being depends on him. And I think because deep down he understands that there is this dynamic that, you know, whatever stories he can tell himself about what happened, he was the one who was in power and I was the one who went to prison. And for me to be kind to him, I didn't have

to do that. He had never had it happen before. It was unheard of. And as a spiritual person, he experienced it in a spiritual way. Me, I came out of that experience feeling like a fucking superhero. I have never felt more powerful in my life than when I sat across from him and was kind to him. And it didn't matter what he said or what he did because I showed up. And that was, I was not expecting that to happen. That was not how I expected to feel. It surprised me.

But like it had such an impact on me that I felt like I had discovered something about trauma and about healing and about people and dynamics. And in a world that is so conflicted and where the people are not building bridges, they're blowing them up. I was like, I wanted to remind people of what happens when you when you take a chance and you take a stand. Yeah. Well, that kind of kindness is rewarded by the universe. And that was the feeling that you got that you were on the right path to like the best possible person that you could be what would the best possible version of you do and you did that and then you had that feeling

because of that that was the universe telling you right hmm this is the best thing you can do you could yell at that guy and call him a piece of shit and slap him in the face. And feel justified in doing so as well. And you would be. And you would be. And that might even feel a little good in a way, but it wouldn't feel like that good.

Yeah. Negativity always, no matter what, leaves you with this residue, this like icky, even if you're correct, just like slime that's on, this psychic slime that's on you, no matter what. And that's your power, that you could sit across this person and treat them with compassion.

And that's why you felt that way. You know, it's like... Have you ever felt that way? I've never had anything remotely like your situation. But you've had encounters with people. I don't think you have to have as devastating of a situation to be in a position to know that you're doing the right thing in a moment. Like for instance, when my husband got up in his whitey tighties and walked down the stairs to put himself between me and my fan and his family and this

crazy guy, I feel like maybe he felt that in that moment, like total clarity of purpose. And it didn't really matter what happened because he was doing the thing that had to be done in that moment. And there was no confusion. I think that, like, when I talk about it with him today, like to this day, he's just like, I was just not confused. I just knew exactly what I needed. I didn't even think it was that flow state even that they talk about and like Tao and like you, you and the universe are moving in the exact in, in sync. And that, that was my version of it.

That was his version of it. That was his version of it. And I think that all of us have the opportunity to glimpse that in our lives. And I'm just curious if you've ever felt like you were moving in sync with the universe. I try to be. But again, I haven't... You still feel kind of slimy? Well, I've had moments where I haven't. I've had moments where I was very negative and attacked back and I never feel good about it.

It's one of the reasons why I don't engage with people online that are negative. Especially particularly the lowest level of it is social media. I'm not interested in conflict. I'm not interested in it. I don't want to do it. Even if someone has negative things to say about me, I'm not really interested in engaging. I don't think it's valuable.

I think it's a trap. But it's not the same situation as what you were in. I don't know how I would be. Because the other danger is like, I don't want to consider myself above criticism, say. Like, that's what I think the other flip side of that of like, of having confidence is potentially having the confidence that my prosecutor had when was he feeling in sync with the universe

when he was prosecuting me? Did he clearly Clearly not. There's no way. No. But that's not confidence. That's ego. Confidence is an objective analysis of all the facts, doing the right thing, having a rock solid ethical and moral foundation, and knowing you're doing the right thing and knowing

you can do it, that's confidence. What he had was ego, you know, this desire. You know, when people are in a position like that where people's freedom hangs on your decisions and what you do and what you don't do and then you do it for so many years and you see So many people prosecuted you just get calloused about it. You see it with doctors where doctors, you know They they have this some not all some doctors develop this very Callous feeling whether someone lives or dies. They don't care anymore. They're so used to people dying. You know, I mean, there's doctors that do surgeries that are completely unnecessary just because they want the money.

We were talking the other day about this guy who is an oncologist who treated people with chemotherapy who did not have cancer because he wanted the money. And he was convicted. It was like, I think it was some insane number of people took this horrible poison to try to kill the cancer inside of them and ruin their lives and ruin, and there was nothing wrong with them. Yeah, because there's, and I think his justification was even more sick.

His justification was that he was always taught that you eat what you kill. And in that business, in the business of being a surgeon, in the business of being a doctor, like you have to perform this medicine in order to get money. And this is the incentive structure that's put in front of you. I don't know if you know that, but chemotherapy is one of the most profitable things that a doctor can prescribe. They actually get an enormous amount of money from each individual person that they... Yeah, there's all sorts of very twisted and bizarre financial incentives. Again, these institutions that get warped by these various...

Exactly. I mean, this is the case with vaccinations, this is the case with prescriptions of various medicines. There's kickbacks, and these kickbacks become incentives, and then you have the overwhelming burden of the financial responsibility that you have with your medical school debt. And then you have malpractice insurance, which is overwhelming. You have overhead, you have staff, you have a bunch of people, and then people start justifying things in a very twisted way. And it's because of the system.

And you have to be an incredibly powerful person to rise above that and to say, this is not what I'm going to do. Even if it means I can't do this anymore, I'm not doing this. And then the weakest amongst us just instead, they go the other way and say, I'll just justify. No one is going to know. I'll say, yeah, you have cancer. Yeah, I'm sorry.

We're just going to give her a low dose of chemotherapy for like six weeks, just like whatever. No big deal. Yeah, just destroy your body from there. And then just like this godlike power that you know that you are imposing this medication on this person that absolutely does not need it.

And that person doesn't know any better. Yeah. That's fucking dark. Well, you could go darker. You could go darker with medical transition of children. You know, this whole gender-affirming care thing where you're taking young kids and convincing them they need to be chemically castrated or physically castrated. There's a lot of weirdness in the world. Evil is a real thing,

and the motivation to do these things can be very, very hidden and masked with all sorts of incentives and the structure in which this institution was sort of created And that's that's the world we're living in and it's not a good world. It's not it's not a perfect world You know, it's not like this is ideal. This is how it should be. No, it's not like that there's money is a weird fucking thing money and power are two very very weird things and without fucking thing. Money and power are two very, very weird things. And without some sort of a higher power that you call upon or some sort of a higher power that you are beholden to and that you have to answer to, it's very difficult for people to make decisions if they know they're not going to get caught, if they know they're not going to get in trouble.

If you're a prosecutor and you're beyond reproach, and all you have to do is... And the system protects you, and everyone's protecting you. Yeah, the system's protecting you, and not only that, once the wheels are in motion, the train's on the track. We can't turn the train around. What do you want to do? Well, the fucking train has to be on the track. So she's got to go to jail, I guess.

Yeah. And there you go. Can I tell you something I'm conflicted about? Sure. I guess yeah, and there you go. Can I tell you something? I'm conflicted about sure so You know my books been out For a month or so now and I'm also you know working on I don't know if you knew this I have a who show that I'm working on that's based on my life Yeah, Monica is executive producing it Monica Lewinsky is executive producing it. And I'm really proud of it.

It's coming out at the end of the summer, late summer. But one of the things that like, one of the responses that I've had to my book and to the news that know, the news that I'm telling my story in this way or in another way. And I write about this in the book is this question of, do I have the right to of the story. The real victim is my roommate who was murdered. And that unless I have the blessing of Meredith's family to tell my story that I should shut up and disappear out of respect.

That's crazy. You're a victim. Period. Full stop. No ifs, ands or buts. You were 20 years old. I was 20 years old. You're a victim. Period. You didn't commit a murder. You went to jail for a murder. You're a victim. Period. Fuck those people. Are they even real people? Have you talked to those people? Are they humans? Have you been in front of them? Are you reading things? Are you reading things online?

I've had journalists certainly who have interviewed me. I get this a lot. I get this a lot. From who? From people who I feel like are suffering from something I call the single victim fallacy. This idea that you have to something I call the single victim fallacy this like idea that like you have to decide Who's the real victim? Oh, there's a victim hierarchy. You know the greatest victim because you're still alive, right? You weren't raped and murdered. So you're still alive. So you're fine. Like that is ridiculous

If that's a journalist that's saying that to you, I would just leave the room I'd be like, well, i'm trying to have a conversation with these people about it that to you I would just leave the room. I'd be like well you and I... Well I'm trying to have a conversation with these people about it. They're talking to you about that. That's a preposterous position. To tell a 20 year old that went to jail for years for a crime they didn't commit and had their whole life publicly, publicly ruined worldwide in a country you don't even live in or you're not even from, fuck that person. That's a crazy position. And if they're just trying to do that to just get a rise out of you, to get a reaction,

to try to go like, they're bad. They're bad at what they do. It's a bad person. The idea that you're not a victim is preposterous. That's a crazy position. An actual human being sat in front of you and was saying that? So it comes in different forms. So some people are very explicit and say like, don't you

think you shouldn't be doing this when the Kurcher family's lawyer says that you shouldn't be doing this and that it's offensive? So they're saying this to your face. Yeah. Yeah. And then I have to sit there. And again, do like, experience the rage that washes over me and then go, how do I have an effective conversation with this human being? How do I convey that my life matters to and that there's room in this world to acknowledge all of the truth of what happened, which included my own victimization and my own story and the things that I've learned from it, that I've had the privilege to learn from it because I'm still alive.

That's such a crazy position. That's like saying if you were in the Twin Towers and you got out right before it collapsed you should shut the fuck up Right because you didn't because you didn't die all those other people that were inside of it. That's ridiculous. He's still your life It's still your real lived reality and the lawyer for the family That's telling you that you shouldn't be talking about it. Fuck that guy, too That's crazy. That's a crazy position. You can't listen to that.

You're gonna get the most preposterous takes because you're dealing with something that millions of people are commenting on. So the idea that every one of them is gonna be a rational position, that's not real. People are silly. Like, people are weird. They have crazy takes on everything. There's all sorts of personal justifications

and mental illness and there's people who hate women and there's people that, you know, whatever they, law enforcement's always right. You're always gonna have ridiculous takes if you get a million takes on things. That's your world. No, you shouldn't be struggling with that at all. That's crazy. Anybody who says you shouldn't be talking about it, but fucking of course you should be because there's a lot to be learned. There's a lot to be learned from first of all the admirable positions that you've taken, the way you've formed your life and who you are as a human being because of your struggle, because of this insane experience that you had to go through at fucking 20 years old. Your brain's not even fully formed.

It's insane. Your frontal cortex is not fully formed. And for someone to say that you're not the real victim, well, that's crazy. That's crazy. That's a stupid position. We shouldn't be conflicted in any way, shape or form about that. And I think there's a great deal that we can learn from your experiences. First of all, again, learn from the way that you've handled it, where you can sit across from that prosecutor and this feeling of like Being kind to this person who did this thing to you how it made you empowered

I really do think that's the universe telling you you're on the right track. Mm-hmm You just can't listen to the peanut gallery. You can't listen to all the noise There's just too much noise. And you have to learn how to do that. On a much lesser scale, I see that with friends who are famous, who read comments about them, or read articles, and get infuriated, it ruins vacations, because they have to type up a response.

Yeah, the impulse to respond is like, you don't have to. Not only do you not, should you not respond, you shouldn't read what they're saying in the first place. You shouldn't pay attention. Is there an ever, like, I wonder if the fear is, and maybe this is my fear because I'm always questioning myself, is like, is there, I always want to like at least hear it and like cycle the thought through my mind so that I can test the validity of it in my mind. Yes, there's definitely that, sure. But to a point, you should probably do that yourself without those people. That's the best way. The best way is to have an internal auditing system

where you look at your own life and say, what did I do that I could have done better? And is there anything about what I'm doing that feels icky? Is there anything about the way I'm capitalizing on this that feels icky or feels conflicted? Is there anything about it that I don't like? But just do that yourself. You're a smart person. You don't need all those other opinions where you have to like, you know, let's take email today from all the mandinox haters. Like,

you don't have to do that. Fair. Yeah. And thankfully, my husband is the one who takes the brunt of that and filters it. Oh, he shouldn't do it either. Yeah. Let me help. As a person who's been famous for a long time, don't do it. Okay. Fair. There's no value in it. There's zero value in it. I mean, there's times where I was forced into responding, like during the whole COVID situation when CNN was saying I was taking veterinary medicine and- And you you were like I need to clarify Reality or not. I need to say hey fuck you because the world should say fuck you

You're not supposed to be able to do that You're not supposed to be able to be the news and lie and then hold yourself to this moral high ground and say we have To stop misinformation. What about you motherfucker? Like what about you, you? Like, what about you? And so there's that. Like, I've had to respond in that way. But I mean, if I responded to everything that everybody says about me,

I'd have no time for my children, for my family, for my life, for my job. I would have no time for anything. But you can't do it. You have to have an internal auditing system where you look at yourself and you have to be your own worst judge. You know, anything anybody says about me that tries

to make me feel bad, well guess what? I'm way harsher to me than you are and I know me. You know? Right, you know all the dark thoughts and the slimy feelings. Sure, but that's why I work really hard to be a good person. I work really hard to be a good person because I don't like those feelings. I don't like when I judge myself and I find myself to be lacking. I don't like it.

So I institute a lot of self-discipline and I institute a lot of introspective thinking. Yeah, what's your what's your auditing like what's your self auditing process? Well, first of all it's like Why are you doing what you're doing with your life? Like what why why do you why do you do a podcast? Why do you do comedy? Why do you do anything? Why do you do what you do? I? so the best way I approach it is I do it because I love what I do. I'm intrigued. I'm curious.

And I do my best. Always do my best. Now if I half ass something, it will haunt me. Like if I have a bad podcast interview, if I don't, if I think I interrupted too much, or if I didn't ask the right questions, like that'll fuck with me for the rest of the day Like I don't need other people to fuck with me. I fuck with myself I really do I so I so the best response to that is do better every time every time like Sit when you sit down be as open as possible

Try to like don't let all these little weird Mind fucky things enter into your head. Just try to be pure. Try to be genuinely curious. Like, what's your genuine feelings about these things? And then, did you handle it well? If you didn't, what could you have done better? Well, then work on that.

That's all you can do. I think one of the things that I am I worry about is that people only feel safe when they're either being self-righteous or when they're being cynical. Yeah. And like genuine compassion or curiosity is looked down upon as naive and a weakness. But I feel like the only way to be truly ethical is to be exposed in that way. Cynicism and self-righteousness are shields. They are ways of approaching the world with a barrier. And so I can't promise anyone that doing things my way, which is like really trying to like push back against those impulses, which I recognize as being dangerous impulses, is gonna necessarily

lead to good things. Like it's led... It's not your job to promise people that. It's not your job. Because your job is for you, for your soul, whoever you are. It's to speak to what is the right path for you. You don't have to promise these people. This is the burden of being a public figure. You're not a role model for all these people. If you are a role model for these people because they find you admirable, that's great. But your responsibility is to yourself. Your responsibility is to your own mind and the people that you come in contact with. So your responsibility is not to like say, like, don't be cynical, be kind, and oh,

it didn't work out for you. Oh, fuck, I fucked up. It's me. It's on me. No, it's on them. It's on them. It's on you. Everyone has their own soul, their own mind, their own path.

And you have to find out what's right for you. In doing what you're doing, you are most certainly a role model and you most certainly will be a role model for me, including me. I find myself admiring. Like when we had the first podcast, I thought about it for a long time. I would think about it all throughout the day sometimes, like randomly. I would just think about imagining myself in your position and how would I be? And I, you know, I don't know. I can't answer it, but I admire the position that you take.

And I think it's incredible. I think it's a great, it's a great example to the world of what's possible if someone is thrust into a horrible position that's totally beyond their control. But what is in your control? What's in your control is how you respond to it. And how you responded to it was incredibly admirable. That's your responsibilities to yourself, and you did a great job with it, a fantastic

job, exemplary. I don't think there's anybody else that I could point to that's ever been through anything even remotely close to what you've been through and come out the way you have. The only examples that maybe I could point to are some of the people that I've dealt with through Josh, where we brought people in that were wrongly accused, that went through these horrible incarcerations and came out of the other side, these incredibly well-read, brilliant, articulate people that are so thoughtful and so introspective and

then made the time in prison empower them. It can be done. And those are examples. But the responsibility is to yourself. It's not to these other people. I guess, like, I think that's so, I mean, thank you. And I agree. Like, I've met very incredible people who have made the most of a bad situation, which ultimately, that's what it comes down to. I guess my one pushback might be that I have come to realize

that we are so interconnected. Like we are all influencing each other constantly. And so on the one hand, yes, I'm only answerable ultimately to myself. But when I really sit down and like sit with it, Like part of the reason why I was able to approach my prosecutor with the perspective that I had was realizing that like there is a fluidity between us and all of us where we're all influencing each other and people in his life have now like the influences in his life people I will never have met have have had direct influences in my life because it's been like this fluid path like this connectedness between me and him me and you any any person we talk to

any person we encounter is going to then have this ripple effect and so on the one hand yes like I'm a drop but I'm also a drop in an ocean that has a ripple effect. And that ripple is going to interact with your ripple and all these other ripples. And so, yes, I am answerable to myself, but I also feel like I can't ignore the potential impact that my ripple might have on another person. And I've been really rewarded in the way that I have been, those ripples have been communicated to me. Like, I've had someone tell me that they didn't kill themselves because one day they heard me in an interview and like that they were going to kill themselves and they didn't.

And like I've had someone tell me that and like I never in my wildest dreams thought that me just deciding to like have a conversation with someone one day on a podcast would save a human being's life. But like those are those like the interconnected fluidness of all of us that like I also can't discount. You shouldn't. And that I think about a lot. Well you should. I mean you are an example. I mean we are all an example and if you're a public example, we right now, both of us

are public examples. We're two human beings that are communicating right now to millions of people. It's kind of fucked up if you really think about it. What are we doing? I know. But what we are, we're being real people publicly. So we're thinking publicly, you know, and that is very beneficial to other people that are thinking privately, because

you get to hear people think publicly, and especially a person like you that's very exemplary, and that I would love if more people could follow that line of thinking. And your example, it's a beautiful example of someone who did nothing wrong, but had wrong done to them and came out a better person because of it. And that's, it's not just inspirational, it's aspirational. It provides the universe with positive energy, in a weird way, the human universe, I mean. And this thing that you said, I think, is very important. People protect themselves with cynicism and with...

People that constantly wanna criticize things, they're constantly criticizing things. Finding fault. You're also, you're ignoring your own life. That's a part of what's really going on. The real things are inside their own life, there must be things they're ignoring. If they're spending that much time focusing on external factors like that, and other people, and other people's flaws, and other people's things, other people's, especially like trivial,

nonsensical things like celebrity beefs. You know what I mean? It's like, what are you doing with your fucking life? Like you don't, it's like. I just don't know how anyone has the time honestly. Like as a. It's because they're losers.

And this is the reality of like some people don't want to hear this because you're a loser. You know, and it sucks being a loser. I've been a loser. I've been a loser many times in my life. You're a loser if you're doing that because you are on with your own decisions becoming a loser. You're deciding to be a loser by focusing this precious energy that you have in life on shit that should mean nothing to you is there like is there are the thinking that they're being effective agents in the world by participating in it like con that's the con that's the con like

yeah by taking them down a notch um yeah I'm I'm a part. I'm a part of something, and I'm accomplishing something. You're not. You're not. It's cynicism. It's the flag of moral virtue that you're waving to show that you're better than other people. But in doing so, you're attacking that person, which is inherently evil.

Like, you're using this justification that you're correct to try to ruin someone's lives or ruin someone's reputation or ruin someone's feelings, to hurt them that day, to reach out to them and attack. And it's almost always based on a feeling of personal inadequacy, almost always based on your life is not what you want it to be. You know, the people leaving horrible comments on someone's Instagram page or Twitter page There's no way you're Living the life that you want to live

there's no way that you're in an ideal situation of love and harmony and success and You know you have great friends and life is amazing But yeah, it's fucking fat cunt. You know like there's no way there's no way if you're typing those things There's no way like that. It's a it's a human flaw and it's accentuated by this Disconnect that comes with social media this disconnect of being able to send a message to someone and have no consequences No consequences and no social cues, not to see the person read it and get hurt by it. You're like sending little bombs over the fence.

Yeah, we are primed to be psychopaths. Our algorithms have primed us to be psychopaths. And that worries me. But that's like a disempowering position. You know, like you don't have to be. You don't have to do that. Like no one's compelling you to do that. I don't do that. Why are you doing that? Like why do it? You don't have to do it. Then this is the example that you can lead for other people if you are talking and speaking publicly. Just don't do that. It's not good for you. It's not good for the... It doesn't help anybody hurting someone that

you don't even know. That doesn't help you. You should be... You have... I always try to... This is what I tell my friends when I talk about reading comments and reading things and engaging with social media because I have friends who friends would ruin their week, ruin their day. Like one comment will fuck them up and they'll come to me and talk to me about it. I'm like, listen, I want you to think about your mind and your attention like it's a number. Like you have energy and you like a battery, right? Or bandwidth that's on a broadband cable.

You have a broadband cable. You have 100 units. If you're spending 30 units of your precious time concentrating on someone who's saying something that's not even true, that's mean and horrible, and it's the worst possible least charitable position on you, you're robbing yourself of these precious units of attention. You have 100 hundred units.

Usually your hundred units should be all on loved ones and friends and things that you love to do and life. That's what your units should be used for. And if some of that sneaks in and it resonates and you go, Oh my God, they're right. Well, fucking correct it. Figure out what you did did don't do that anymore It's like it sounds so simple, but that's it if you if you are do something you are doing something that people are rightly criticizing

recognizing recognize it course correct like this is this is Where friends are supposed to come and play your friends are supposed to be able to tell you, Amanda, you didn't have to do that. I know the reason why you did it, but don't do that. This is why. This is what I felt. I felt you overreacted. You didn't have to do that.

Now this person's all fucked up because of it. Right, but your friends are not gonna define you by what they consider the worst thing you've ever done. Of course. And they're gonna recognize that you're an evolving human. And I feel like- And they love you. And they love you and they love you the whole picture of you and it's coming like their criticism is coming from a loving place instead of an attacking place exactly and so how do we get back to communicating with each other not from an

adversarial place which automatically instigates defensiveness and sort of refusal to acknowledge anything to a place of like genuine openness. Well, this is gonna sound so cliche. You have to act out of love. Like I reached out to a friend of mine recently. They're doing a podcast and it went completely sideways. And I reached out to him and I sent him a text message and I said, hey man, you can't do this. Like this is why you're doing that. You have to recognize that people are listening to this. You're actually ruining your own product by doing this.

And he responded back, I know, I realize that I felt terrible while it was happening. I got caught up in this thing. That slimy feeling. I got all bunched up. He's like, I got all bunched terrible while it was happening. I got caught up in this thing. That slimy feeling. I got all bunched up. He's like, I got all bunched up. And I just responded, I felt terrible. I was like, it's OK.

Just don't do it again. Because he gets to have another chance? Yeah. But the reason why I said it to him is because he's done it before. And I'm like, stop doing this. Stop doing this. You don't have to do this.

This is fucking you up and ultimately like if you Had to use like is conversation an art form. I kind of think it is right if people are consuming it Yeah, if people are consuming it is an art form. So if you're being Overbearing and gross and like whatever it is, it's like that you're ruining this art that you're creating. And this real art, like that painting is art, this is real art. This is a weird art.

It's like I don't even wanna call it art. It's like a dance but with words. It's a dance, it is a dance. It is a dance, conversation's a dance. And this is why I have such a hard time Like I would go on a double date with my wife or something like that where with people they start talking over everybody else I know sometimes I have to say well stop like she's talking like he's talking haven't you ever listened to a podcast? It's like playing it's like if you were Roger Federer and you're playing tennis with people like no you can't fucking hit the ball like that

Can't just do multiple balls at the same time. Do you not listen? I know you want to say something, but this other person is talking right now and you can't just talk when you want to talk. You have to also listen. Listening is a part of the dance. Don't step on people's feet. You see that foot there?

I want to put my foot there, but the foot's already there. Don't step on people's feet like you see that foot there oh yeah I want to put my foot there but the foot's already there don't step on their foot this is crazy but you have to step on a couple of feet to realize I stepped on her feet I can't do that you have to accidentally fuck up to realize okay don't do that again right back up figure out what you did wrong, course correct. Can I ask you about comedy? Sure. Because I want to do comedy. I'm doing... I just wanna, I just wanna, guys, I wanna.

I'm actually doing standup on Saturday, but on Vashon Island, I'm doing... What's Vashon Island? It's where I live. It's a little island right outside of Seattle that is awesome. Okay, I know where that is. Have you been to Vashon Island? It's where I live. It's a little island right outside of Seattle that is awesome. Oh, okay. I know where that is. Have you been to Vashon before?

No, I've been to Bainbridge. Oh yeah, okay. Bainbridge Island, our island is a little more rural than Bainbridge. Oh, so you're doing comedy for your community? Yeah. That's a terrible idea. Is it? Yes.

Don't do it. Why? No, you want strangers. Really? I feel like... Yeah, you don't want to interact with those weirdos that you live with. I feel like we have a very supportive community. I've done it before and it's been great. Do you have an opening act or just go up by yourself? No, I'm part of like, it's like this Saturday, I'm going to be a part, I'm in a lineup of people who have like seven minutes set. Oh yeah. Oh that's safe seven minutes is safe. Yeah yeah you know walking up there and I'm like how many times you done it?

This will be like the fourth or fifth time. Whitney actually was the one who first introduced me to stand up. She like like, I love Whitney, by the way. Can we just gush about Whitney for a second? And I love the fact that we both have small kids at the same time, and I just love her. And so she was the one who first recognized, like, this girl's been through some shit, I bet she's fucking funny.

And, you know, befriended me after I got on her podcast, and then when she did the roast of Whitney Cummings for OnlyFans, I was her, like, special surprise guest. And I got to do a little bit of a roast of her and a little bit of myself, right? Like, of course, the one place that I can finally get my comedic, you know, true self out there is on OnlyFans, of all things.

And, you know, I get to be, you know, when I go this Saturday, I get to be the ex-con mom on the menu and that's a Pornhub search for you. You know, like I get to like lean in to the tragedy of it all. But it then goes back to that question of do people stick you into boxes or are you allowed to be more than what people expect you to be? And I've, you know, in the past, not from my own community, but from strangers received criticism for making jokes about my experience. And again, coming from that place of how dare you joke about, you know, going to prison for a crime you didn't commit when you're not the real victim and whatever.

Or you're a true crime figure. You're a person who has been, I associate you with a tragedy, therefore you have to stay in tragedy space and moving into comedic space is not allowed. And so I'm just curious what your thoughts are about that. That's the same thing. You're dealing with commenters. Like you can't listen. I just just. Yeah, I just do my thing in my own business. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. If I listened, I would have never done anything I've done. If I listened to people, I would have never done anything that I've done ever. Not one thing.

But we should. Yeah. okay, I would have never fought I would never got into martial arts. I never would have fought. I never would have done stand-up comedy I never would have done a podcast even my own wife jokes around about it because when My kids were really little there was one time where my wife wanted to go to Disneyland and I said I can't I have to A podcast she goes. No you want to do a podcast podcast I go no I have to I told the people that I was going to do it so I do I commit it but back then it was it made no money it was just like nonsense thing that I was doing on the internet like what are you

doing and to this day we laugh about it like thank God you didn't listen to me but I don't listen to anybody I I listened to me. I listened to my own mind. If I wanted to like, I would have never moved to Austin. Like I moved to Austin in the middle of this giant Spotify deal. And they were like, what are you doing? Like you know, like what? Like, so they gave me all this money. And I'm like, I'm gonna leave LA. Like what? Like, how are you gonna get guests? I'm like, I'm flying them in anyway. Like, who cares? I got I want to do what I want to do. I'm going to just do it.

I have a, I have a little fucking compass. It's like, do do do, go that way. Right, as if also, as if everyone only lives in LA and you weren't like the only people worth talking to are going to be in LA. Also, I was like, I would rather be broke and not live under the thumb of retarded government, then stay in LA and have a successful career. Like, fuck you. I'll just do stand up and travel the country and just live in

the middle of it. I'm not doing this anymore. I mean, you can't tell me I can't work. You can't tell me I can't go out. You can't tell me I have to put a mask on when I'm walking the dog. Fuck you. Like the whole thing was just like, I'm out. I'm getting out of here. And moving to Austin was a crazy risk. You know, like opening up a comedy club. Everybody's always told me, I've always told people, be nice to comedy club owners, because you don't want to be one of them.

Like, you want to deal with us? You want to deal with a bunch of fucking crazy people? Unreliable, convenience. Travel the country, half of them are on drugs, they're all narcissists and fucking insane people and they're all just like just their whole day is... You're really selling being a comedian right now. Yeah, well, just being honest.

Half their mind most of the day is trying to figure out things that are fucked up enough to talk about on stage. Like, and how do I phrase this? How do I structure it? What's a way to get into people's heads with this idea? How do I make it really funny? Like, what's the best way to do it? And like, this is a crazy way to live.

Like, you don't want those people to be your primary source of income because like, for the comedy club owner all you have is what the artists create that's all you're selling otherwise you just have a box you have a box of the microphone and you're selling drinks all you have is other people's creation and those people half of them are fucking insane like you don't want to be one of those. But then I came out here and I was like, God damn it, I have to be one of those. No regrets. No, no, it worked out great. I mean I went to your show last night. It

was super fun. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Great. Glad you had a good time. Yeah. Yeah. You have to just do what you think you want to do and then just do the best version of it you can. But to listen to people say, you shouldn't be making jokes because you're a tragic figure, fuck you. Says who?

Says you? Let me look at your life, bitch. Let me go through your fucking pathetic mind and find out what weird justifications you're making for the way you think and behave. Like you're not in any position to be given out advice. And most of those people are not in any position to given out, to be giving out advice.

Yeah. And I do worry about people's lack of imagination. It's like, I don't know. I've, I've had enough taken away from me that I am not going to be limited by a lack of imagination. Absolutely. So, and it's also people don't want you to succeed. That sucks. Why? Because they're not succeeding. It's all it is. People that are succeeding, for

the most part, want you to succeed up until you get to their level. And then you're like, hey, they don't want you to pass. You're putting up on my success. Is there a limited amount of success in the world? No! Why then? Well, because they're fools and it's famine thinking. It's a famine mentality and you could either think in terms of abundance or famine, you know? But it's a real problem with comedians. Comedians that criticize other comedians, kind of crazy that they're only criticizing

the ones that are way more successful than them seems odd hmm convenient seems weird but they don't think about it that way they just look at this other person that's getting a lot of attention and they feel bad so they think that should be them and instead of like using it as inspiration like wow look at her she's fucking selling out arenas this is crazy what is she doing? I'm not doing what can I learn from her? Yeah, I learned from that instead like fuck her and fuck this and fuck that and What you're doing is stealing bandwidth from yourself that 100 units You're now spending 30 units criticizing other people who aren't even thinking about you. Haha

Haha doing it to yourself. And not only that, but when you're doing it publicly, everybody knows what you're doing. Anybody who's really worth considering, who's an intelligent, objective person, knows exactly what your motivation is. They know why you're doing it. The least charitable takes on things, and the worst possible light that you're shining on

things and the worst descriptions of people. You know what you're doing. You're just trying to make up for the fact that you've fallen short. You don't like how your path has gone and you see someone all of a sudden she's telling she's doing comedy now. Fuck that. You know, you shouldn't be doing because she shouldn't be doing comedy. These hot takes that people have, you know, while they're on antidepressants and their

whole fucking world's in a tizzy. Like shut up. You don't have to listen. But it's okay that they talk. It's okay. It's like part of the learning experience of human culture like Civilization has to have a bunch of fucking people talking about stuff and a bunch of its noise And it's up to you to figure out what's noise and like well

Then you see someone who's not noise and who's someone who's living an exemplary life and okay That's not noise. Okay, what's in that? What's in that? Like, oh, she's met with a prosecutor. Wow. And she felt empowered. You know when people are going to listen to what you just said about that and just like when they're alone, like throughout the day when they're driving their car, when they're sitting on the train, they're going to think about that.

I mean, I'm still thinking about that. I'm still like trying to figure it out. And I think that's good. I think. thinking about that. I'm I'm still like trying to figure it out and I think that's good I think yeah, yeah, we're all like you said, we're all interconnected. We're all learning together You know and the only thing you do is do your best do your best Do your best is that the advice your best? Yes, is that advice daddy? With everything do your best be a nice person do your best Yeah, that's all you can do.

Done and done. Yeah. We have solved everything. It seems so simple, but you know, those demons will, they never sleep, they'll wake up in the morning tapping you on the head. Again, the thing that haunts me is when people think they're doing their best and they're not. That's what haunts me.

And that happens. That is happening constantly. It's people convincing themselves that they're doing their best and they're not. But then how do you get out of that cycle of convincing yourself? Because that's where the issue of cognitive bias comes in and reaffirming your sense of self to yourself and your identity like I'm a good guy, I can't do wrong or like I'm a good friend, I can't be a bad like there are ways that we define ourselves that makes it impossible for ourselves to see ourselves clearly and that freaks me out. Like I'm always afraid of that.

Five grams in silent darkness. Prescribe. And you might have to do it more than once. You might have to do a lot of cleaning. Yeah. Clean your closet. Clean your closet. Okay. Throw out all the stupid shit, but it's hard for people because you know, you're on this path of momentum. Oftentimes people are ahead of their skis. They're on this path of momentum and they don't know how to stop.

That's the train that's out of the station. But in a much lesser extent because it's more in their control. When your situation is beyond your control. A lot of people, they're the fucking, they're the engineer. They're the ones who's in the skis. Yeah, they're the ones who are deciding to go straight downhill. It's hard. And then you have all these things.

Once you've sort of created a life, and you have all these pieces in motion, and then you realize, like, oh my god, this is kind of beyond my control, and I don't like where it's going but Everything's still moving. It takes a lot to pull that back and you kind of have to slow it down in stages You know, you have to like throw things off the side of the car Like what's go gotta get rid of this gotta get rid of that

So I'm gonna have to cut people out of your life. Sometimes sometimes it's people. Sometimes certain people, they're not going to learn. And I think, you know, the universe provides them as an example of how not to live, but also as a puzzle that you need to solve. Like you need to solve. If this person is continually bringing negative things into your life and continually tripping you up and sabotaging you. You have to, at a certain important time, separate yourself. You have to. You know, you got to ghost people. As horrible as that seems. Like, you can't, because you don't have enough time. There's not enough time in the world. Your time is very precious. And if people don't want to help themselves, you can't help them. True. That's very true. I've definitely found myself in the position of not being helpable. There's a story I tell in the book about trusting the wrong person and wanting to believe that

they were someone like me, someone who can understand me, and then I realized they were not. That's horrible. When you let someone and then you realize you fucked up. I've had that happen multiple times. Yeah, there's a lot of con artists out there. There's a lot of sociopaths. There's a lot of slippery people that they're chameleons. They're like little cuttlefish.

They kind of adapt to their environment and slip into your world. It's dangerous, you know? There's a lot of people that they look at it like, like it's a game, like how do I get close to this person? How do I benefit from this relationship? How do I make these connections? And in the business world, you're actually taught to do that.

Right. Which is really crazy. Which is what, like no wonder why- It's called networking. Right, right. It's a good word in that world. Yeah, you have to bullshit, you know? And you and the wife have to go out and like pretend that, I know he's an asshole, but we're gonna sit with him

because it's really important for my promotion. And then, you know, no wonder why CEOs become sociopaths. Like, of course, like that's part of the job. John Ronson has a good book about that. Have you read The Psychopath Test? No, I haven't. Oh, it's so fun. I read the Publicly Shamed book, though.

Yeah, that's a good one, too. It's great, yeah. He's so funny. Yeah, yeah. It's, I mean, being a human's weird. There's no guidebook, you know? You have the most complex interactive machine that is constantly adapting and changing and it's completely variable.

It's completely variable based on your environment, like not just your environment in terms of the human beings, but even the like weather. Like if you live in Seattle, right? You're on a very different wavelength than when when you're in Austin. It's yeah Yeah, I come here and I feel like I'm in a bath all the time In a bath. What do you mean? It's so hot and Like impacts me in a way where I just feel sort of Dreamy like I'm in a bath all the time instead of that's interesting

I've never heard of put that way in a bath That's funny That's funny Yeah, I don't think about that way I wanted to ask how you slow down though You're talking about slowing down and taking stock

And the way I do it is by meditating But I have found that a lot of people are resistant to the idea of meditating because they have certain ideas about what meditating is. And it's shutting off your thoughts. And it's like, well, eventually you might be able to do that. But ultimately, it's just sitting down and noticing your thoughts that arise.

But I like to say that anyone who can masturbate can meditate. And ultimately like- Actually people that can meditate maybe not be able to masturbate because they don't have any arms. You can still meditate. Exactly. And you get ultimately to a similar place of like just single minded focus and bliss. So go for it.

Don't hold back. Yeah. And the funny things that occur to your brain when you are meditating, like I have, okay, can I tell you something that's kind of like off color? Sure. Well, maybe you know this, like since becoming a mom, like my libido, meh. Really?

Oh, yeah, just because I'm constantly being touched that the last thing I need is for my husband to climb on me like a jungle gem. Like, it's just, it's just not what's on the menu for me. Also, you're probably tired all the time. I'm so tired. And I'm just, my body is different.

The chemistry is still working itself out. The one thing that reliably makes me horny is meditating. Interesting. Isn't that wild? Huh. And we have this term in meditation, monkey mind, right? The idea being that when you sit down, you really notice that your mind is going all over the place and is just like reacting like a monkey. But

also, another thing that monkeys are famous for is just masturbating voraciously. And I feel like that's also what's happening in my mind. Like I sit down and notice like how perverted my mind is when I'm actually just sitting there meditating in a nice group of people on a Sunday morning. That's funny. So. A group meditation. Oh yeah, yeah.

It's not just like when I'm home alone, like in my intimate space. Like I'm like, I feel sick. Yeah, this is, I hope no one at my Zendo listens to this conversation. Maybe they're gonna come up to you the next time you do it, like me too. Then they'll say, yes.

But then you don't wanna know, cause then you're gonna be meditating like, this freak is thinking about sex too. Well, I mean, and you're sitting there and you're like, me too? But then you don't wanna know, because then you're gonna be meditating like, this freak is thinking about sex too. Well, I mean, and you're sitting there and you're thinking like, what else are the uses of these floor cushions? Like, you're just like going, like all of the things in your brain,

and then you're thinking, am I the only one? Interesting. Yeah. So, I don't know, there's something, again, one of those like weird, unintended consequences of just trying to like sit back and take stock is like Rediscovering parts of yourself that have been sort of diminished or made dormant because of the stress of existence so Another reason why they should advertise that I don't know why they don't advertise that on meditation apps

Like I'm trying to get perverted trying to find my inner pervert exactly Yeah, I don't know I don't necessarily meditate that way But I do incorporate a lot of voluntary adversity way, but I do incorporate a lot of voluntary adversity. A lot of it is working out. You got a lot of Buddhas around you for someone who doesn't meditate. I know. Weird, right? What's with that? My friend Duncan has some very bizarre theories about that. I don't know, I'm very drawn

to that. I do though. It's just I do it while I'm doing other things I've always said that martial arts is a form of moving meditation because it's so singular in its focus that it requires all of your Thoughts and it cleanses your mind There's a bunch of things that I do a bunch of things that I do that do that archery archery does that oddly enough Archery there's a reason why there's that book. Yes There's something about because have you ever done archery I have done it because my my brother-in-law is a ren fair guy he's a so cool can I call out Seattle nights by the way he is the director of the Seattle Knights and yes he jousts he like talks in what a door I know it's so cool it's so cool I love it I always I'm gonna go to their

show on would be island this month anyway that's funny yeah they're awesome but yes so yeah what were we saying archery archery yes so I've done it like in his backyard because he has all of the medieval weaponry. And I partook. That's hilarious. Yeah. I don't use the medieval ones. I use modern ones. But the thing about it is that it's very difficult to do accurately, especially at distance, right?

So when I practice, I practice it. Most of the time I practice in at about 85 yards. The amount of movement, like so, if you're at full draw, so you draw the bow back, right? If you're at full draw, if you look at my arm, if my arm does this, I miss by six inches. Wait, what did you just do? This, this, this, this. Ah, ah, ah. I'm missing by six inches at 85 yards.

This slight, I mean, a millimeter of movement is four inches off target. So you're saying that Legolas is a badass is what I'm hearing. Who? Legolas from Lord of the Rings? Oh, yeah. I'm not. I'm not. That's not a real person.

I'm applying it to human beings. Okay, fine. That there's this repeatable technique that you have to do. It involves breathing and focus and concentration. And there's actually a whole process that I go through. There's this guy named Joel Turner, who was a, he was a SWAT instructor and a lead guy in hostage situations where someone would have a child hostage, you had to shoot the guy who was holding a knife to a child.

He's had situations like that where you have to be completely focused on the task. And so he developed this process of talking yourself through a shot with this. You have these words that you say, and you repeat in your mind while you're going through all of these various techniques. So when you're drawing a bow back, you draw back. You have to anchor. So you put this string and a very particular part of your mouth every time my knuckle, this finger goes underneath

my jaw in the exact same spot every time my elbow goes up in the exact same spot. And then it's staying still and concentrating on the target and pulling through and then it's staying still and concentrating on the target and pulling through. And you can't think about anything else. It's so overwhelming that you have to focus, if you wanna be accurate, you have to focus only on that. And in doing so, the world just goes away. The world goes away because it requires so much of you.

Martial arts is the same thing. Like if you're doing jujitsu and you and this person are trying to solve each other's puzzle and you're essentially trying to kill each other but in a friendly way, like you're friends. But because you can tap out, you don't hurt each other. But you can't be thinking about your bills. You can't be thinking about an argument,

you got in this, why did my dog shit on the rug? You can't be thinking about those things. You have to be completely focused on what you're doing. And in that way, like, jujitsu people are some of the calmest, most chilled out people you will ever meet in your life. First of all, because they get all of their aggression out. Like all the unnecessary aggression

that people carry around with them, all this angst and... 100%. Which is part of being a human being because we're designed to run away from predators. We're designed to hunt and gather and look out for invading tribes. Like this is the genetic sequence that evolved for hundreds of thousands of

years that we still have. It's still a part of us. These human reward systems are all in place. You have to honor those. And one of the ways you have to honor those is rigorous exercise. Whatever you like to do, you can play squash, you can play tennis, you can run, you could do yoga, you could lift weights, you could do jujitsu, but you have to do something.

If you don't do something, you're gonna always be the most anxiety-ridden people I know are also sedentary. I don't think that's... A coincidence, and I also always feel like whenever I'm feeling really shitty psychologically, I need to go for a run. Do you find, so here's my question, given that that is your meditative practice,

do you find that in the moment that you release the bow and that becoming one and that flow state that you have entered into in order to perfectly align yourself with the bow and the arrow. Does that moment of release ever result in some kind of unconscious processing coming into your consciousness? So like some kind of a new awareness of something that you've been trying to figure out and it like is a catalyst for you figuring out what you need. Like that feeling of like being in sync with the universe

and knowing what you need to do. Do you ever find yourself like in the moment that you are like immediately exiting that flow state, do you feel more clarity about your life or what you need to do or that thing that you weren't thinking about like your to-do list or your bills or that argument that you've had with somebody that you care about like does anything come into focus or do you find you walk away from an encounter in jujitsu like knowing

not just feeling better emotionally but like knowing what you need to do next? I think more so with jujitsu. With archery it's just you know because it's so hard to do at the end it's such a singular thing you're just doing this one thing over and over and over again like I'll do it like a hundred times in a day. The thing is like okay what did I do right what did I do wrong like what why did that shot go bad like what minute adjustments yeah just minute adjustments and again it's just a clarity I'm sorry about my throat people yeah no worries it's um it's just a clarity of analysis of technique and of execution so it's it's so overwhelming it's so singular in it in the focus that you don't really

think about anything else so there's no room for like, oh, now I know what I did wrong in my life. Like, yeah, I guess I one of the benefits that I get from meditation is feeling like when I come out of meditation, I feel like I have a clarity of purpose that I might not have had because I was, I had monkey mind, right? I was busy, I was mind and I was distracted and I was using my bandwidth with so much and so you just tune down what your bandwidth is like paying attention to and then you reenter the world

with a renewed sense of clarity and you're not as distracted, you're not on that treadmill of thought. Yeah, I think that comes, to me at least, that comes much more through rigorous exercise. That makes sense. Yeah, that's at the end of a really hard workout and sauna and stretching.

Stretching is always great too. That's a good time for reflection after it's over and it's like this wind down, cool down. And then I'm just, I always feel so much nicer. That's the one thing I really like about it. Like after I work out, I feel so much nicer. Like I wanna be- I'm a good person now.

I know, I just wanna be nice to people. I wanna smile and say hi to everybody. Like all the weirdness of being a man, it just goes away, you know? The weirdness of being a man. I do think that I do not envy you being a man. Oh my God, it's the best. I don't know being a woman. Yeah, really? Yeah. Oh, no, I much prefer being a woman. Of course You're a woman. I

Mean testosterone is a hell of a drug my friend. Like what the hell is that? Mm-hmm testosterone. I don't want to deal with that Mm-hmm. It's interesting, but you have some. You have more testosterone than you have estrogen. What? Yeah. Yeah, women have more testosterone than they have estrogen. But I've never felt the impulse to punch a wall, you know? Me neither. That's stupid.

Okay, well- I don't punch walls. Well, you have an outlet for your punching energy, but like- Yeah. I don't know. What I mean is like that innate, an elevated level of aggression that just is not accessible to me as a woman. Is that wrong?

Am I inaccurate in this? I just feel like I don't know what I would do if I wanted to just jerk off all the time. I just don't understand what that is like. And that seems over like That doesn't seem fun to deal with Yeah Well, you don't really want to jerk off all the time unless you're a sex addict

Mm-hmm, you know, and then you probably got other deal issues you're dealing with but the aggression thing It's not just like aggression for no reason. Like you only have aggression for a reason. Like I never have aggression for, I'm never like walking around fucking mad at everything. It's never, never. It's never the case. But I also, I work out a lot.

So I get it out of my system. It's just a thing like you just have to maintain. You just have to maintain your life. You have to maintain your body. You have to recognize you have biological needs. And as a man, I think one of those needs is you have to exercise to just calm yourself, to relieve anxiety. And again, that's that term that is used often, but I think it's the right term, voluntary adversity. You show up at class, you work out really hard. You show up at the gym, you work out really hard. And then when it's over, you're like, you feel better.

You feel good, like you're nicer. Like strong, powerful people can be the nicest people because they don't have to be nice. They're being nice because they want to be nice. There's a lot of weak, feeble men that pretend that they're nice, but really what they are is just vulnerable. They have to be nice because they don't have any choice. Like if you-

And if they were in a position of not having to then they would they would drop the nice act And that's what happens. There's some of the creepiest fucking people when they have power is like really weak men There's some of the scariest people and there's the scariest people as politicians They're just really weak men that all of a sudden have power I'm gonna fucking show you but it like having real power is to be kind when you don't have to be kind. You know what I love about being a woman though? What? That I do think is a genuine thing and a genuine difference is it's easier for me to be nurturing in the sense that like no one would bat an eye if I saw a kid who was like I couldn't figure out where their mom was

and I were to approach them and say, come here honey, let me help you. As a man, like do you second, like I know that like, my husband has told me this, that like he second guesses like hanging out at, you know, with the kids at the park because someone might think that he's a pedophile. Oh, that's crazy.

Hanging out with his kids. Yeah, because like if you're just like a guy sitting on a bench and your kids are playing, like, how does anyone know you aren't just a guy? I think he's really overthinking things. Like, of course, you're a fucking dad at the park. That's crazy. You see other dads at the park, you say hi. You're not a pedophile. Those are my kids.

Which are how old your kid is like, it's normal. Okay. I've taken my kids to parks a thousand times. You've never felt in some way that your masculinity inhibited your ability like your your instinct to be like nurturing and affectionate? No, no, I think that's a weakness. Like if you can't be nurturing and affectionate because you think you're masculine That's crazy. That's just weak. Hmm. That's that's nuts. That's like a distortion of what strength means Hmm, like that's not that's not strong. That's weak Why can't you be nice? Like why can't you be like the idea that if you're nice and you're affectionate and you're kind that you're weak. That's crazy Hmm, that's great. Especially if you have options Like if you if you don't have to be nice and you're nice like that's real niceness

Like it's pure like you don't have to be you you don't have to be a nice person But you're nice because it's a good thing to do like that. It's the right way to do it Okay. So what's so great about being a guy everything it's awesome we fucking build everything we've run the world I am a guy I mean I would yet like it all comes down to trying to like get the attention of some lady that is all no I already have the attention of some lady. Not at all. No. I already have the attention of a lady. Right. I'm good.

I still love being a guy. It's not like that's the primary motivation. No. What is the primary motivation? Fun. Fun? Fun. Yeah.

Life is fun. Life should be fun. Sounds pretty great. It should be fun if you pursue it correctly. There's a lot of stuff to do. A lot of stuff to do a lot of stuff to do It's interesting. That's why I hear people say I'm bored. I don't even understand you. I don't even get it How the fuck can you be bored? I wish I had 50 lives to live simultaneously

I would do a bunch of different things. I would have a bunch of different jobs I was always like so many different things that I'd love to do aren't you sometimes beholden to doing things that they don't want to do just because they Aren't people sometimes beholden to doing things that they don't want to do just because they have to make bills or they have to? Yes. But that's all choices that you make too. And unfortunately, these choices sort of, they cascade. You could find yourself motivated by the wrong things and doing things for the wrong reasons,

like doing things just for money and just for this or just for that. And I've done that before, I know it, but then you have to realize what you're doing and not, and take the steps. Take the steps to not wanna do that anymore. But, you know, it's like, there's people listening to this right now, like, oh, that's easy for

you to say, because I have to do this and I have to do that. That's true. But you can do things to better your life with your free time. Go open your phone right now and look at your screen time. Okay. Now I understand the screen time is 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there, five minutes here, five minutes there, but that screen time, it's probably about five hours,

which is crazy. That's five hours you could have been improving your life. That's five hours you could have been doing something different. That's five hours you could have went to the gym. That's five hours you could have eaten better. You could have taken steps to have better food in your house. That you could have taken steps to pursue a career or move in the direction of pursuing something that's different than what you're doing that you would actually find satisfying

and fulfilling. You just have to decide what are you doing with your time? And you know, and this goes back to people commenting and bitching at people online. Well, that's what you're doing. If you're distracting yourself by doing a bunch of shit that's just worthless, and it is worthless. And easy, maybe. And easy. And very easy.

Yeah. It's because you need discipline. You need to figure out what do you really want to do with your life and what makes you feel better. Do you feel like you are innately disciplined? No. No, I've learned that. I've developed that.

Yeah, that's not, no one's innately disciplined. No, I don't think that's real. I think we look at people that are disciplined like, oh, it must be easy for them. You're just born with that gene. No, that's not real. No, you recognize the value of discipline and the rewards. You reap the rewards and then you like it. And so you keep doing it. You keep pursuing it. You know, I'm just curious about like brain chemistry, because when I think about, you know, you've been very complimentary towards me in this conversation, but a part of me is wondering,

am I just lucky that I have the kind of internal chemistry that I have that makes me value the things that I value? And, you know, I'm just doing what I feel compelled to do. And I'm curious when people feel compelled to do otherwise. And I don't know where to place responsibility for that. Do you know what I mean? Well, you wouldn't know unless you are them. You could look to your own life, to times where you haven't lived in an exemplary way or done things where you're helping yourself and done things in fact that are actually sabotaging your life and you can correct them yourself. But it's very hard.

I mean, you would have to be a fucking counselor that would have ultimate truth access to a person's thought processes to really find out why they're doing things differently and why they're not living in a way. The only thing you do is live by example. You know, there's a term for a Taekwondo instructor. It's called a sabam nim. And it's one who lives by example. And that's what you have to do. You have to live by example. Live like someone's watching. Yes, this is what I tell people. And I've said this for years. You want to have a successful life. If you want to live your life like there's

a documentary crew around you filming your everyday life and that you want people to be impressed with you, do it when no one's watching. Do it when no one's watching. Do it when no one's watching. I think about that when I work out. I think about that, yeah. People were judging me and they were watching me right now and they would, what would you think?

Yeah, and now I'm wondering if that's one of those weird silver linings to this whole experience is that my life became very, very public very early, and so I literally do have to walk around living my life as if there is potentially a documentary crew following me around. Yes, yeah, I think that is. I think that's real. I think that's the gift that I have gotten by being famous

That I have to live publicly And if I didn't like if I was just some fucking tyrant that no one knew You know And I just had all this wealth and power and no one knew me and I could just get away with being an asshole Right. Yeah, I think the most wealthy and the most powerful do not want fame, because with fame comes accountability. Yeah. But that's good. That's good. Even the haters are good. You know, and then the people that defend the defend you against the haters. That's good, too. Yeah, it's all good. So everyone's just working this out together publicly. You

know, they're doing it through different vessels and sometimes they do it through other people. They're doing it through me and they're doing it through you. Would you wish fame on anyone? No. No. No. No, no, no, no, no, no.

You can't handle it. Yeah? No, but you can handle it. But most people can't handle it. It breaks people. That's why people can't have it when they're young. The worst thing you do to a child is make them famous. The worst thing.

I mean, look, there's countless examples. I've talked to so many of them on the podcast. They're all broken. Yeah, like who have you talked to? I'm curious. Macaulay Culkin, Miley Cyrus. He's doing much better now, isn't he? He's great.

He's great. I mean, he's as great as you can be to be super famous when you're six I'm friends with Ricky Schroeder You know, I've had a bunch of them on a bunch of people on that were famous when they're young and they all are missing Something it's like when you're making cement you don't add enough water There's something that happens when you have fame and adulation during your developmental stages as a child when you're supposed to be like figuring out how do I get people to like me? Like what is it about, you know?

And there is that is that is that developmental stage when like your your brain chemistry is being configured for the rest of your life. Like, that is scary. You want to put that brain chemistry coagulation in the right configuration, in the right set of circumstances, or else you're gonna be having a complex for the rest of your life that you're gonna be grappling with.

Because I don't know if you can undo the stuff that gets ingrained in your brain chemistry when you're a kid. Like, I don't know, fuck it, I don't know anything. I don't know fuck all about brains. But like, it seems to me that like, especially developmental, when your brain hasn't configured yet,

that's when you get hardwired to have complexes the rest of your life that you're gonna be dealing with. 100%. And if your brain is formulated with extreme adulation and love for no fucking reason, just because you're a cute kid, but you're a cute kid in front of the whole world, in Home Alone, that's nuts.

That's nuts. Yeah. I mean, he's a very thoughtful person and he's come through it. I mean, I really enjoy talking to him. He's a really nice guy. Does he regret being in the Home Alone movies? Boy That's a good question. I'd have to ask him. I don't know. I mean, I don't know, you know Cuz I mean, you know, you can look back I don't even know how much of a choice that was for him

How many how much can you choose anything when you're six? How could you choose? that was for him. How much can you choose anything when you're six? How could you choose? But like, so in a way, it was a thing that happened to him that he didn't really have control over. And does he look back on that and go, would I give up that? Like, if I could get that life back, would I have a different life? I'm curious what he would say. Well, he most certainly would have a different life? I'm curious what he would say. Well, he most certainly would have a different life. Yeah. Yeah.

Would it be better? I don't know. But I don't know anybody that's, again, gone through that. That's, air quotes, whole at the end of it. I just think that there's also this weird thing where you become the provider for the family, which is very strange. As a child, yeah.

And then you have this parasitic relationship that your parents have to you, which is, I have friends that were famous as young people and they have these very fucked up, complicated relationships with their parents. One of my friends, we found out their parents stole from them millions of dollars. Yeah, and then you have to grapple with that as you're an adult.

These monsters, they used you as an ATM machine and they stopped working and they became your quote unquote manager, really just pushing you out there to try to siphon money off of you. Fucking A. Fucking A. Yeah. Yeah. But I got fame in a slow drip. I got slow doses. Like snake venom.

You get a little bit of snake venom. If you get one big bite from a cobra, you're fucked. That's what I got. Yeah. So. Well, you're strong. So here So. Well, you're strong. So here I am. But you're strong.

You came through it on the other side, a very durable person. And I think there's, it's a trial by fire and you went through it. That's what they do in boot camp. You go through something very difficult to be strong at the end. And you don't become strong, just wake up one day, I'm strong. No, you have to go through some shit, you know? And going through some shit when you're a kid,

as becoming famous, is different than going through like hardship as a child. I know a lot of children that went through hardship, like all my friends that are interesting, all had horrible childhoods. All of them. All my most fascinating friends. I'm so grateful that I did not have a fucked up childhood.

Well, that's probably what prepared you or helped you. Indeed. I feel like if I had gone through this experience after having a fucked up childhood, I would be a psychopath today. So thank God I had a good childhood. Yes. Yeah, I didn't have a bad childhood. I had a complex childhood, but it wasn't bad. My mother and my stepfather were very nice people. It wasn't bad, but it was fucked up. It was moved around a lot, and had a lot of friends got bullied a lot of different things but wasn't the worst you know nothing

horrible happened to me you know so it's like the the trials can't be too hard they can't break you they have to be just enough so that you gain some strength and you rebuild. And if they do break you, then it's a very difficult task of rebuilding. And people that have gone through horrible childhood trauma, particularly abuse and sexual abuse, that they have the most difficult hurdles to overcome. I agree. I think in large part because how do you trust like right? I think rebuilding your life relies upon like upon

Rebuilding yourself in the context of other human beings right? How do you do that when you can't trust anyone? It's true But I do know some people that have gone through childhood sexual trauma that are also incredibly fascinating people because they They they figured out a way to acquire strength through it all. But what about trust? And that's the other thing I was going to say. And then they've also figured out a way to, well, they're also very skeptical people,

and rightly so. But that's a good thing because a lot of people don't have your intentions in mind, especially if you're a woman. If you're a woman, everybody's bullshitting you to try to get in your pants. It's constant bullshitting you to try to get in your pants. Like it's like, it's constant bullshitting, you know, so you have to figure out, well, who's actually bullshitting me and who's just being nice and who's being nice, but kind of bullshitting, just slowly playing this game. You ever heard of the definition of a gentleman? No, it's a patient wolf. Okay, yeah, all right.

And then ultimately the prey sort of acknowledges, yeah, here you are, you're getting into my pants in the end, but because you've been the most patient, the most impressively patient of all. Yeah, you've done the dance correctly. You've put your feathers out like a good peacock. Yeah. I like that. I like that dance. Yes.

Well, that's the thing is like women are designed to like that dance, right? Because this person is showing you the respect of not just trying to use their physical force and take, take it from you and not care about you as a person. They've chosen to acknowledge you as a person and like, this is what this person wants. They want to feel comfortable with me. But then you can't be a sociopath too. It has to be genuine. You have to genuinely like this person. So, you know. For a woman to feel safe. Right. How do you, you know, and then that's, you got to go through a lot of trial and error with that too. You have to figure out like why that relationship fall apart. Oh, that

was a piece of shit. Like why that one fall apart oh she was a psycho like recognize like what what do you actually like is it just that they're hot this is the thing like I've had a bunch of friends that just married hot people and then you know you're going through divorce and it's all chaos you can't just fucking marry hot people just cuz they're hot and they're sexy and they turn you on like that's just genes like you, you gotta understand, like, there's a personality involved, and then there's also, like, when you're hot, you have ultimate power.

You have the Willy Wonka Golden Ticket. Like, everybody's stumbling at their feet to try to, like, open doors for you and be nice to you. Put you in prison. Aah! Yeah. Open a certain kind of door. Yeah, I mean, we of door and then close it forever.

Yeah, it's fucking... It's just flirting. It was flirting in the end. That's all it was. Yeah. Being a person is fucking weird. You know, it's really weird. It's really weird and it's temporary.

It's like you're always looking at that fucking hourglass, justands running out, you know, and like what am I doing? Why am I doing it? What's this about? What do I like? What do I do? And then you can get overwhelmed with like existential angst just what's the point of it all? Yeah, well you have to find a point if to it like what is man's search for meaning? Like, what is it? What are we doing? Well, that's a subtitle of my book My search search for meaning oh my god in cursive if you can still yeah yeah can't anymore it's your actual handwriting no I wanted it to be my actual handwriting but there was it good this looks so much more pretty, you could have made it that pretty. I do have great handwriting. What the fuck it's close

Might as well it is odd Yeah, the the search for meaning search for meaning is very odd and you know and you could Especially when there's no inherent meeting you just have to make it up. I Think I mean it means something to you mean, it means something to you. If it means something to you, it's inherent. It's real. If it means something to you. If you actually care, it means something.

What's the point of it all? If you're going to die someday, and who knows what happens when you die? And then there's the real fatalist thing. When you die, it's over. It's just black and emptiness. And then just shut off. Okay. So you're still alive, bitch.

Okay, you gotta figure out what you're doing with your day to day. Do you enjoy your day to day? If not, why do some people? How come some people enjoy their life? Why don't you? Like, what does man search for meaning? Enjoy your fucking life.

Enjoy this life. You can, it's possible. It can be done. And I think living by example shows other people that it can be done. And I think living by example shows other people that it can be done. And then being like really honest about it. Like what is, what are the steps? What's the struggles? How do you do it?

Yeah, that's actually been a really sort of fun takeaway that I've had from having just an Instagram is like, I'll post a silly video of me dancing for my kids. And a lot of the comments are just people being like I'm so glad that someone like you can be happy. You know it's like thank god someone like you can be happy and I'm like yeah someone like me can be happy that means you can be happy too. It's possible to be happy. Yeah, but you know when you're a 500 pound person and you want to be thin

That's a long road It's not gonna come quickly and if you're a severely depressed very unhappy person with a disaster of a life It's not gonna turn around overnight. That's a battleship It takes a long time to turn that bitch around and get it faced in the other direction. And the motivation has to be that you have to see some kernel of opportunity embedded within that darkness because otherwise like where how do you even know what direction to go towards? And you have to be enjoying the process. You have to figure out a way to enjoy the process of improvement and to affirm. Even though it's hard.

Yes. And because it's hard. Hard can be fun. Yeah. Yeah, you have to enjoy the hard. And that's why voluntary adversity is so important. You have to force yourself to do hard things so that you can do hard things no matter what. Also pump up remixes. If I do, what's that? Pump up what? Pump up remixes.

You've got to get motivated somehow. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Although David Goggins doesn't listen to music because he thinks it's cheating Really? Yeah, he gets all his motivation internal. It's like come on Your fucking complete psycho He's like I need a good soundtrack when I'm running. But that's the spectrum, you know, the spectrum of discipline, you know. That's what he's doing. That's what he's doing. That's what he's doing all day long for no goal other than like I talked to him about it. It's like I'm in the lab every day downloading information. Like, whoa Cool, dude, you're in the matrix. There's a crazy video of him working out with my friend Israel Adesanya.

Israel Adesanya is the former UFC middleweight champion of the world, one of the greatest fighters that ever lived. And he is working out with David Goggins, and he can't keep up with him. And David Goggins is just breaking him. And he's throwing up in garbage cans, and David is putting them through his workout. And it's one of three workouts that David does in a day. And he's like this incredibly fit, world champion fighter,

this elite athlete. Is he distracting himself? I don't know, you have to talk to him. You have to dig into that brain. You have to dig into that. That's a very unusual brain. But he was 300 pounds and fat at one point in his time and late in his life. It just has become his purpose.

That's his meaning. Right? That makes sense to me. That's his meaning. That's why he says he's like, he goes, I'm downloading knowledge. Like every time he's like pushing himself past the limits that he thinks he's capable of further and further, he's downloading more understanding of himself. That's his quest.

We should work out some time, by the way. I think that would be fun. I only studied fighting when I first got back out of prison because I was getting a bunch of death threats, so I did Krav Maga. Oh boy. And a lot of it was just learning how to scream. Krav Maga?

Yeah, well, my Krav Maga instructors, because they were instructing me on a specific for a specific reason, it wasn't just to work out their first thing that they taught me was how to scream, just to like, without without holding back the amount like I was surprised and they were telling me, people don't want to take up space and make noise. Like we're taught from a very young age, especially women, to not do that. And so you have to, in the first lesson,

was make noise, take up space. And so we just practiced like screaming as loud and as hard and as long as we could. And then once we got through that, then we started doing the fighting moves. And the first thing I had to do before I did anything was scream first, then move, scream, move. And so that the screaming became part of the movement.

So it would trigger, so I wouldn't have to think about it. If it ever came down to it and someone actually attacked me, I wouldn't have to think scream. I would just scream. Craft McGaugh is legit. It gets criticized a lot. Does it? Yeah, by martial artists. Why? Well, because it's a combinatorial martial art, so it combines a bunch of different things

together. So it's essentially like a jack of all trades. What's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with that. Oh, okay. No, no, there's nothing wrong with that. It's like only being into purebred dogs, like what's up with that? Well, no, it's like is it effective, right? Like there's no Krav Maga artists that have gone on to dominate in the UFC. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I didn't know that. But it kind of, you could kind of say that

mixed martial arts in a sense is essentially the roots of Krav Maga, because it's taking the best aspects of various martial arts and training them. Yeah, how is it different? Well, the thing is, is that if you are training for self-defense, okay, you're training to defend yourself against an attacker, the true, in my personal opinion,

the true best way to learn how to fight is to learn how to prepare yourself for trained killers. Not the average person. Really? Yes. Like how often are you gonna encounter trained killers? It doesn't matter. You should be prepared for trained killers

because you could run into a trained killer and if you try to do some Krav Maga nonsense on me I'm gonna fucking strangle you you can't defend yourself against someone who actually knows how to fight Okay, here's a question. Can I ever actually defend myself against someone like you? No Not against them What's the fucking point because you could defend yourself against someone who? Doesn't know how to fight as good as me, but the odds of someone like me attacking you are very very very very very very I should train to be able to you know yes fight against trained killers but yes defend yourself but jujitsu you can jujitsu you could

defend yourself you're not gonna the way you would be able to beat me is if I was untrained the I have too many advantages but also I don't have advantages it was someone's bigger than me and just as well trained as me right or more well trained than I am better than me that I don't I'm not gonna beat you know the UFC heavyweight champion like I'm not gonna win it's not not possible I don't care how long I do martial arts. But you can avoid dying by them. No no no okay they'll just murder you. No I can't no no I'm completely vulnerable. Okay great. As an expert martial artist with three black belts I'm completely vulnerable. Yeah that's reality that's physics. That's I mean. It's like you against an elephant who's gonna exactly exactly

That's the hundred men versus a gorilla. Yeah The gorilla would win who I just thought the gorilla would lose Retards men who have never don't be men who think they could fight better than they can which is most men What who who ever brought up that as even a thought experiment? I don't know but it's funny that it's like viral in 2025 I thought we were work that out in this 50s The fact I feel like people just don't remember what animals are like we're so out of touch with animals They don't even know what an animal is. They have no idea people know what their dog is They have no idea what an animal is an actual real animal and also your own dog could fuck you up

If you want if it wanted to just doesn't want to exactly. Yeah, well unless you have a little dog I'll fuck up a chihuahua. Yeah My dog Marshall, he's a golden retriever. He's the sweetest dog on the planet But if you can you probably kill me if you want he just doesn't know You know and he would never think to write like a rat was trying to attack you, you'd be fucking terrified. Or if he got infected by rabies, you know, like and lost his mind, like, ciao.

It'd be a real problem. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's the reality. But if you're training to defeat a trained killer, you're going to be way better off than if you're training to defeat someone who's going to lunge at you this way. You're going to block better off than if you're training to defeat someone who's gonna lunge at you this way You're gonna block that and hit him here and hit him there and like but don't you fight differently against a trained killer?

Versus like some dude who's like drunk. No, the right way to fight is the right way to fight period Whether it's some drunk dude if if some drunk dude tries to take a swing at me. I'm not gonna think oh, he's a drunk dude, if some drunk dude tries to take a swing at me, I'm not going to think, oh, he's a drunk dude. I shouldn't avoid this punch. I should do something. No, it's like, it's all the language. So martial arts is essentially like a language. And some people only know a couple of words. And some people can eloquently recite Shakespeare at the drop of a hat. And that's the difference between an expert and someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. And most people don't know what they're doing when it comes to martial arts.

If you're preparing for someone who doesn't know what they're doing, that's not the right way to do it. The right way to do it is to prepare for someone who knows what they're doing. Now this is very different when we're talking about like women's self-defense versus just, you know, like a grown man who is of normal size

Defending himself against another grown man of normal size a fair fight. Yeah a fair fight but in a fair fight you should be preparing to fight against a trained killer if You are a person who just only trains in self-defense tactics, like someone comes at me, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. Good luck doing that to someone who knows how to fight. Good luck. Because they're going to recognize all of your movements in advance. You're going to go like this and they're going to go, oh, well, his right arm is coming this way. So I'm just going to step this way. And I'm going to avoid that. And I see his left foot step backwards. Well, now his right leg is vulnerable. So I'm going gonna step this way, and I'm gonna avoid that, and I see his left foot step backwards,

well now his right leg is vulnerable, so I'm gonna kick it. Like, it's like, it's language. It's understanding the flow of body dynamics and movement. And it's happening so quickly that the only way that you can actually be effective is if you're fluent and you don't have to think about it. You don't think about it.

When you're training, it's like you very rarely think, oh, now I'm going to do this, it's like you very rarely think, oh, now I'm going to do this. It's like opportunities open themselves up, especially in striking. Striking is something that you do where you're doing these techniques so often that as things happen, you're just responding in a trained way. Your mind and your neural system is completely trained for these actions and these movements. Do you think that fighting and you know fighting your friends like not like actual like fighting for your life but fighting for your friends is a crucial part of brain development?

Because I know that I've heard or at least I've read that rough housing with small kids is a really important part of their brain development. And the people who become more well-adapted, well-adjusted emotionally, just they seem to be more fit emotionally, were kids who had some rough housing when they were young, especially with their parents. Is that like an elevated form of rough housing part of a human being's cognitive development? Well, I think physical altercations

are a normal part of human existence that have existed. It's been going on since the beginning of time. And to no understanding or no knowledge of it and no experience with it at all. Leaves you inherently vulnerable. Because I'm not a fighter. I don't like, I've never gotten to a physical fight with anyone.

Good. Is that good? Is that good? I haven't either. Okay. Other than ones on purpose. Right, okay. Like I don't get in street fights.

I don't, I'm never good. I haven't been in a fist fight since I was a kid I just they're all martial arts fights. Okay, I you know and I Just think for for men being vulnerable is not good It's just not good to not know how to defend yourself It just leaves you with this deep insecurity And that's why I see men that don't know how to fight. They use bravado and they puff their chest out and they yell. They're trying to intimidate people and scare people.

It's just posturing. It's just like... Maybe this is why I feel bad for men because I don't feel any sort of impulse to do that. To puff up my chest and like, I don't know, maybe is it... Well, you shouldn't. Men shouldn't either. And the men that do it are generally vulnerable. It's bullies, right? Why are bullies bullies? They're bullies because they're pussies. That's really what it is. That's why they're trying to intimidate people and hurt people. It's because they're weak. It's like, trained fighters are some of the nicest people. People that fight in the UFC, they're some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

It sounds crazy. My friends that are all jujitsu people, they're the nicest people. They're so friendly. They're so good because they're not scared. They're not insecure. They're not vulnerable all the time. Most men who don't know how to defend themselves, like are really mouthy and get loud, like they're just vulnerable. And you know, I have a friend and he has real rage problems and he does not fight at all. And he was yelling

at someone in the park a lot of the comedy store once and I pulled him aside, what are you doing man? He goes, I don't know, I fucking see red. And I go, you don't know how to defend yourself. I go, one of these days you're gonna do that to someone who's like me, but they're mean. And they're gonna just say, oh, here's a nice opportunity to just fuck this guy up. And you're gonna wind up in the hospital or worse. Like, don't do this.

Like, you can't do that. But like, some men grow up puffing their chest out, and they get away with it. And they get away with it if they're loud enough, or they're mean enough, or they yell enough. And that becomes their defense mechanism. They get shitty with people all the time. But that's all it is.

And if they don't get shitty with people publicly, they get shitty with people online. They get shitty, they do, get off your question, eh. They get it out that way. But it's all just weakness. That's all it is. It's just like you're vulnerable.

And just don't be vulnerable. Figure out a way to not be vulnerable. I got into martial arts because I was getting bullied. And I didn't, I just didn't, I was always scared of altercations. Like, I hate this feeling. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna become what I'm terrified of.

OK. I guess my one sort of poke back at that, though, is I find it interesting that you frame vulnerability in such a negative way. Physical vulnerability is negative. Yeah. But I think the thing that I'm sort of thinking about is how it doesn't matter really how strong you are or capable you are. We all

are still utterly vulnerable. And well, sure. And so I guess like, but what can you control? Fair. You can control some aspect of that. But you can't control guns, right? If someone has a gun, you're vulnerable. I don't care who you are. You can be Superman. Well, not Superman. He's bulletproof. But you can be, you know, UFC heavyweight champion.

You're so vulnerable to a gun. One little kid can kill you. Bang, you're dead. Yeah. But how much can you control? You can't control some of it. So is the idea like, oh, you can't control any of it, so why control it all?

Why do anything? Why be strong? Well, I guess no. I guess my thing is, for me, it's less about like, positioning myself to not get hurt. And it's more, for me, my big sort of like training that I attempt to do is how do I get up when I am inevitably hurt? So I understand that life is going to hurt me and I don't know how life is going to hurt

me so there's like a million different ways that I can be hurt. It might be that I'm physically assaulted. It might be some other thing. And knowing that I can't prepare for all of the ways that I am vulnerable to existence, instead I try to think, okay, I am vulnerable to existence and I am going to get hurt. How do I not be broken by the hurt? And how do I, I don know maybe I'm I'm I'm treating the inevitable pain of life as that as that training to get strong it's just kind of I almost don't seek out pain because I've had enough pain come at me is that does that

make sense I don't know what do you mean by seek out pain though? Well, you were talking about like a voluntary adversity. Yes. Right? And like to an extent I agree with you because that's a very stoic thing to do, to seek out challenges so that you can test yourself and test your mettle and push yourself to become better for the inevitable things that might happen. But not even just for the inevitable things that happen, just for your own resolve. Just for you as a human to achieve balance.

We're all vulnerable. There's no invulnerable people. We're all going to die. We all are made of flesh and bone and we're all weak. Right. There's no invulnerable humans, but you can be less vulnerable and You should probably optimize that Especially as a man I think because it with it without it comes a lot of weird Insecurities that are not comfortable and they can trip you up in all sorts of aspects of your life. I think maybe this is another like woman man thing maybe where like women have to accept vulnerability as like an inescapable aspect of our lives even just in our interpersonal

relationships like I know that when I walk into the room, I'm not the one who's gonna win a fight, that's for sure. Right. And so knowing that, I feel like I, sure, I prepare myself in the ways that I can, right? And I'm strong in the ways that I can. But like, I don't think about vulnerability in negative terms. Because I've also found that once you've been forced to

reckon with your own vulnerability, that is when you find your strength. So I don't know. I see them as interchangeable. I think we're talking about different things. Yeah. Yeah. I think physical vulnerability, look, I think there's certain roles that males and females ultimately play that are unavoidable. And one of them is when your husband went downstairs to protect you. Right. There's a reason why I wasn't the downstairs to protect you. Right. There's a reason why I wasn't the one who did that. Ultimately, right? In that situation, if you are less vulnerable as a man, it's a good thing.

If someone breaks into my house and they're a normal-sized person without a weapon, I'm not scared of them. You know, I'm scared this crazy person is in my house. I'm scared that they might have a weapon. But if I realize that they don't have a weapon and they they're physically threatening, I have a massive advantage. It's up to me whether or not they die. It's my choice. And that's better. That is better. It's better than you getting beat to death by some schizophrenic who breaks into your house because you don't know how to defend yourself. Fair. And you panic and you start flailing and you hyperventilate. You don't know what to do. Yeah. That's not good. No, it's not. That's all I'm saying. I mean, we're all vulnerable.

It's part of what you're doing when you're working out really hard is to try to increase the strength and decrease the vulnerability. You're trying to increase your resolve to push through difficult things, increase your character and your will. You're trying to fortify yourself. And they're also trying- And that's not bad to fortify. It's all positive.

It's all positive. But it gets labeled as negative because there's a lot of things that get attached to it, like jocks and bullies and assholes and aggressive men and shitty men. Who then who think themselves superior to people who are more vulnerable. Exactly. Instead of just being nice because you know you can kill everybody in the room just be nice. Like that's the real nice person is the person who can kill everybody and he doesn't want to.

You know the really shitty people are the ones that would act on that and sometimes you'll run into those and it's better to be prepared. That's, that's all it is like physical vulnerability. But what are you talking about? Like psychic vulnerability and not wanting to go through pain because you've been through so much of course. Yeah. Look, ideally we should go through zero pain.

Ideally we should go through zero aggression, zero shitty, deceptive, conniving, psycho people that are trying to ruin everything in your life. Ideally, yeah. Ideally, you shouldn't have to prepare for that. You shouldn't interact with those people. Ideally. Again, I'm also like speaking at counter purposes with myself because I did the exact opposite thing with my prosecutor.

I didn't have to talk to him. I didn't have to have a conversation with him that was difficult and awkward and hard and forced me to confront all of this pain. And I did because I knew that there was value in that. Right. So. Yeah, we seek comfort always and we avoid pain. Yeah, but I don't know. Maybe I'm a masochist because I always feel like there's something to gain from pain because you've gained so much from your pain and you kind of must know that you are who you are. You know, you're kind of an extraordinary person and you've gone through a lot to become that person.

You don't just wake up and have this perspective that you have. You have to go through a lot of shit. You know what's fucked up though? What? I trust pain more than I trust joy. Because when I'm going through something painful, I know what that is. And I know how to confront it. When I'm going through joy, I'm afraid that something bad is gonna happen to me. Ooh, that happens to people where they self-sabotage. You know?

I mean, I don't know, I was having a great time in Perugia and then everything just went really bad out of nowhere and so like, I don't know, like a part of me is like always is trying to see like the yin yang of it all, like the the good that's embedded in the bad, but then afraid of the bad that's embedded in the good. Like that's, that's what and you know, and that's a reality. Like, you know, the more that you now that I have the privilege of being a mom, I know that one day, if something were to happen to my kids,

I would be all the more fucking, all the more pain in my life. If I'd never had kids, I wouldn't have the opportunity to experience a potential pain that would be utterly devastating. And so that's where that play goes in my head. And I just wonder if it's a trauma response where I'm afraid of good things happening.

I'm sure a part of it is a trauma response. I mean, I think a lot of people that self-sabotage when things start going well in their life, it's because they're used to things going badly. And this idea of things going well, it just scares the shit out of them. It's the unknown. And it's the pain that might come with it falling apart. The pain that might come with you hang all your hopes and dreams on, wow things

really actually are better. And then they're not. So you want it to fall apart so that you could achieve some level of comfort in the understanding of this state that you've been in many times before, the state of failure. I need to get rid of that. I need to lose this. Yeah, but you're aware of it, which is the first step. I don't think you're embracing it. Clearly you're not. You're writing books.

You're here. You got the Hulu series. You got a lot going on. Yeah. I'm going. Yeah, it's not like you are incapable. I'm still just a little bit looking over my my shoulder like, who's coming at me? Imagine if you didn't. That would be crazy. After all that you've been through, imagine

if you didn't think like that. It's understandable. More than understandable. Yeah, that whole like lightning doesn't strike the same place twice. And it's like, it can. I can. It can. Tell that to someone who's been struck by fucking lightning. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's possible.

You can't think it's the fear of the unknown and the fear of the possibilities can really cripple you. It really can. I'm trying not to let it do that to me. You're doing a great job. Thanks! You really are. Yeah, working on it. But again, it's a struggle and this is important for people to hear.

It's not like it's just like every day. It's hard. Life is hard. Even a guy like Goggins, you know, he told me, and he goes, sometimes I stare at my fucking shoes for like 30 minutes before I put those motherfuckers on. He goes, cause he's like, I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna do this. But he knows he's gonna do this.

He goes, but I put them on. Hmm. Well, good on him. It's not easy. Life is not easy. But it's worth living. It's worth doing. It really is.

Does he put those shoes on because he knows that ultimately he's going to be glad that he did it? If you ask him, he's like, because I'm not a bitch. OK, well. Because that is what it is. Yeah, he's ultimately going to be glad that he's still got the strength. And that strength needs to be watered every day like a garden. It's not like you just

have it now you have it for life. No, you have to you have to keep at it. You can everybody could slide, everybody could slide back. It's true. Yeah. As much as we can improve ourselves we can yeah Not it's not easy It's not easy being a person But it's worth doing. Yeah. Yeah, and you can do it and everybody could do it You could do it better than you doing it. I could do it better than I'm doing it I'm trying and you could do it better than I do with all of us. I'm so grumpy sometimes. Yeah, it's like so unnecessary unnecessary I'm so grumpy sometimes. Yeah. It's like so unnecessary. Unnecessary. Avoidable, but it's good.

It's good to, you know, struggle's good. It's good. All of it's good. It's all, we're on the path. You know? But this is like this all this idea that you should know better by now. That's also silly.

I know 80-year-old fools. No, everyone, if there's anything I've learned from being a mom,'s that everyone every human being is a toddler Every single person is a toddler who either hasn't gotten enough attention or it hasn't had their nap Whatever the fuck and they're just having a tantrum like that is and if you treat everyone like a toddler It is actually a very successful way of interacting with people. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. That is the lesson of parenthood, right? Yeah. I talk about that all the time that I started looking at people as like babies that grew up instead of looking

at them like, oh, this is Mike, he's 35. Like, no, Mike was a baby. Like, how'd Mike become so fucked up? Oh, Mike got a lot of bad information, a lot of bad experiences. And he still is a baby. He still has the same needs that he did as a kid. They're just more sophisticated now, but ultimately they all derive down to these same things. Do you need a change of situation? Do you need some attention? Do you need to sleep on it, like, you know, whatever's going on, like, just if you can identify those, like, basic human needs and address and just tweak their circumstances, you can change a person's life. And also recognize that if you ignore those basic human needs over and over, they're going

to compound and you're going gonna have more problems. Mm-hmm. And they're gonna lose their shit in the middle of the grocery store. Baaaaaaah! Baaaaaaah! Amanda, I really enjoyed talking to you again. Thank you very much. Really appreciate you. And your book is out now. Amanda Knox, free. My Search for Meaning. Yeah, if anyone wants to reach out, I'm at amandanox.com. It's pretty easy. Okay. Thank you for being here. Appreciate you. Thank you. Have fun. Bye, everybody. Bye!