The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 487. The Islamic Republic’s Industry of Terror: Hezbollah & Hamas | Naftali Bennett

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with the 13th Prime Minister of Israel, Naftali Bennett. They discuss the internal divisions of Israel, how October 7th refocused the nation, the means by which the Islamic Republic of Iran operates its industry of terror, the victim/victimizer narrative, and what victory might actually look like. Naftali Bennett is an Israeli politician who entered politics in 2006 as the Chief of Staff for Benjamin Netanyahu. From 2018 to 2022 he served as the leader of the New Right party. Then from June 2021 to June 2022, he served as the 13th prime minister of Israel. He retired after one term, becoming the 3rd alternate Prime Minister. He then resigned from this position and re-entered the private sphere as a board member of the Israeli tech company Quantum Source.  - Links - For Naftali Bennett: On X https://x.com/naftalibennett?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Music Hello everybody. I had the privilege and opportunity today to have a discussion with Naftali Bennett, who was the 13th Prime Minister of Israel. And so obviously there's plenty to discuss on that front. And so we did discuss plenty. We discussed the polarization in Israel and how discussion and then protest regarding the reformation of the judiciary in Israel distracted the population and the state and laid at least some of the groundwork for the October 7th attack.

We talked about that attack and its geopolitical causes, concentrating most particularly on Iran, and the Islamic Republic of Iran more specifically, focusing on that regime's stated intent to supplant and replace, let's say, eradicate and annihilate the United States and Israel, which is certainly the kind of statement that would make you assume that you're dealing with a regime that is, to say the least, your sworn enemy. The fact that Iran is responsible in large part while also maintaining a certain amount of optimism, let's say on the Muslim, Jewish, Christian peace front, given the establishment and the continuation

of the Abraham Accords and what that means for the future, even after the atrocities of October 7th. So join us for that. Update yourself and find out what's going on in the Middle East and the world, particularly with regards to Iran. Well, Mr. Bennett, I think we should probably start with the presumption of a fair bit of ignorance

on the part of the viewers and listeners, and well, and with regard to me as well. And we'll get you, if you would, to position yourself. Let everybody know who you are, what role you've played in Israel, what role you're playing now. Just set the stage for us personally so that everyone understands who I'm talking to and why.

Sure. Well, I had the privilege of serving as Israel's 13th Prime Minister, years 21, 22. Prior to that, I was Education Minister, Minister of Economy and Defense Minister. So I spent a bit more than a decade in politics. Before that I had a whole other life in high tech. I was a startup founder, founded a company, became CEO, a real roller coaster, but ultimately we had success. And then I ran another company, we sold it also. And

prior to that, like all Israelis, I served in the military in Israel's top unit. It's called Sayeret Matkal, the guys who did in Tebi and all of that. And I had the privilege of becoming a platoon commander and later a company commander in a special commando unit. So I spent quite a few years fighting our enemies, primarily Hezbollah in Lebanon. I grew up in Haifa, a beautiful city in northern Israel. Some people compare it to San Francisco because it's a mountain that sort of goes down into the sea. My mom and dad were born and raised in San Francisco and they, what's called made Aliyah in Hebrew, when you move to Israel you

ascend, you go up. The term Aliya is to go up. So they made Aliya in 1967 and they are really my biggest heroes, my dad and mom. And so where would you position yourself on the, or where are you positioned on the political spectrum in Israeli politics and would you describe what the political spectrum in Israeli politics. And would you describe what the political spectrum is in Israel? Because obviously there's a left, right spectrum or something approximating it, but that doesn't mean that it maps to, you know,

isomorphically with what we might expect in the rest of the West. So flesh out the political landscape there in your position. So I would talk about two dimensions. On my political beliefs and opinions, I'm right of center. I do not believe in land concessions. I think our enemies want to annihilate us. I think the only way to achieve peace is by being incredibly strong. I'm a free market guy, so I would be considered a moderate Republican here

in America. However, the way I view the political system today, it's less about the battle of opinions and more about a very dangerous group identity politics where opinions almost don't matter. What matters is are you for your group or is it against your group? We can talk about this later and in that sense, the government I established was a very unique creature. It was the most diverse government in Israel's history. When I was prime minister, I had left-wing ministers, right-wing ministers and parties.

I had secular and religious. I had Jews and Arabs for the first time, eight different parties. And the government, even my biggest detractors agree it was an effective government in terms of getting stuff done. They were angry at me for lots of stuff because I sort of broke rank from what was before then. Either you're if you're right, you only fight for the right wing camp and you got to be against the left wingers. And I do not agree to that anymore. I think while I harbor my opinions and I will fight for them, we have to be able to sit

together in broad unity governments by partisan governments. I believe that's the only way forward for Israel. Because I'll say right now at the start, I think that the number one problem of Israel and challenge for the Jewish state today is the domestic poison and internal hatred between these two camps at levels that we've never seen before. And what are the issues that are dividing them? I mean, we're seeing something like a devolution into group identity politics broadly in the West. And obviously the danger in that, at least one of the dangers, is that it undermines

the primary narrative, let's say, or identity that holds everyone together. So that's obviously dangerous if you don't like a descent into chaos. But now I understand the identity politics that characterizes the United States, say in Canada, UK, et cetera. I'm not exactly clear what the identity fragmentations are, I guess, on the Jewish side, but also between the Jews and the Arabs in Israel. So how exactly is the domestic landscape fractionating as far as you're concerned in Israel?

Well, I believe that this is artificially manufactured grouping for political reasons, because there's a lot of benefit in creating camps in politics because you have your base and you eat them up and you get them mad at the other side. But I think it's phony. I think it's not predicated on real big debates because here's the interesting thing. And you asked me about issues. If you actually analyze the big issues that supposedly tear ourselves apart,

actually most Israelis agree on them. It's three areas. It's religion and state. It's the judicial reform and it's the Palestinian issue. Okay, so I can tell you in 40 seconds where almost everyone agrees that on religion, Israel is a Jewish state. We want our kids to love our tradition, to love our heritage, our history, to be knowledgeable about it. But we're also against laws that coerce religion. And I'd

say 80% of the Israeli Jews agree on that. So this is a artificial battle, which is done for political reasons. On the judicial issue, also here, there's a fairly simple compromise. Basically, what happened over the past 40 years was the judicial system usurped a lot of power from the executive, from the government. But over the past seven years there's been a very gradual incremental rebalancing. So we have many more conservative judges who say this is not our business. Government, I love hearing that when a judge says this should not come to the court, this should be a political decision. And so the whole craze about the judicial reform in my opinion was mainly about the terrible way the government introduced it. It didn't introduce

change in order to improve the lives of our people. change in order to improve the lives of our people. It seemed and it articulated venegence. We're against the other side. We're gonna aggravate those lefties. And again, I'm a right wing guy, but I don't think that when I'm prime minister or education minister, my goal in life is to get the other side to be terrified or aggravated.

So as I would call it a poke you in the eye attitude. So it's more about that. And even on the Palestinian issue, the de facto argument today almost doesn't exist. And I'll explain for about 50 years, there's been a big divide where the left supported two-state solution and the right opposed it. The past 20 years the second Intifada and especially now post October 7th, mainstream Israelis do not believe anymore that we should be founding a Palestinian state, certainly not in the near future. So we agree that right now, one way or another, we're not going to allow a Palestinian state.

So why not be together in government and we can defer continuing to argue about it in six to eight years where I'll argue and fight against it, they'll support it. But in the short term, there's no disagreement. There's no support for a two-state solution. Nobody. Yeah. I think it would be a total disaster. But there's others who think that I'm wrong, which is fine.

We can argue and debate that in between us eight years from now. We don't have to waste our energy right now. So this judicial issue, so my sense is that, I mean, I've seen arguably similar moves in Canada in particular, where the judiciary has increasingly taken on the role of the legislative branch, partly because the legislatures don't like to make complex decisions and then they default to the judiciary,

which is not a good thing in the long run because it undermines parliamentary supremacy. So has something analogous to that been going on in Israel? And you said there's been a rebalancing, but that it was handled badly on the messaging side. It became what? What did it become? Become something like a battle between the legislative

branch and the judiciary? Yes. I mean, that's- Well, you basically articulated it precisely right. As I said, in the past, we had a fairly minimalistic Supreme Court that was very hesitant and not inclined to cancel laws or to override the government. They did it from time to time, but on a very cautious way.

What happened beginning the late 80s primarily was the Supreme Court became way more active and gradually began cancelling laws and creating its own self-made constitution based on what's called basic laws in Israel, but they went too far. And the... Was that primarily a leftist movement on the judiciary side? I would say so. I would say, yeah, yeah. Now, in many cases, you said it so right, in many cases, it was a result of government not being courageous enough to solve some, not being courageous enough to solve some, or to figure out some very fundamental issues like the draft law of ultra-orthodox.

So when the politicians are not courageous enough, they throw it to the Supreme Court and then they attack the Supreme Court for getting involved in what they couldn't solve. Now, there was already a gradual process of rebalancing. It was happening prior to this craze of the past couple of years. So things were on track to gradually get better. I remember as minister, you know what, as prime minister, I cannot recall one event where I wanted to get something done and I knew how I'm going to do it.

And the legal folks stopped me. I do remember as minister there was one or two cases that it really got me angry. And I thought these, you know, the judicial system is too aggressive, but it was on track. And then the government came and as I said, they talked about a revolution. They said we're fed up with those lefties. And it's funny because I'm a right wing guy, but what they came to do was to punish the other side, to terrify the other side. And guess what? They succeeded. The other side, which is lots of very decent people, about half of the country, that serve in the military, risk their lives, pay taxes, hardworking people,

much of the middle class in Israel, the secular middle class, they indeed got terrified. They felt subjectively that there's a government that wants to punish them and no one should feel that their government hates them and that created a rebound effect of these huge protests and refusal to serve in reserve, which is a terrible thing, right? Because we need our army and and what happened essentially year 2023

our army. And what happened essentially year 2023 was a horrible year prior to October 7th. The whole country went crazy in this internal war. We got distracted from our enemies. Our enemies saw that we're killing ourselves from within. They saw our national immune system is getting weaker and weaker and they waited and bam. On October 7th. So you think that was associated with that internal strife? Absolutely, absolutely. So the cost of internal division. They could have done this attack two years ago,

four years ago, 10 years ago, 12 years ago. We know from intelligence, from hard intelligence, that they were following this. And you know what their biggest mistake was? That they attacked. We were doing a great job tearing ourselves apart. That attack, a horrendous attack, stopped the craze. And now we have another opportunity to get our act together

and we have to seize this opportunity. So let's talk about, well, first of of all I'd ask you just for a definition because there'll be lots of people who don't know this. The second Intifada, tell us about Intifada and exactly what it means. The second Intifada started in I believe October, where, just as we have background, beginning 1993 all the way to 2000, Israel engaged in the Oslo Accords, a labor-led government led by Yitzhak Rabin, the Prime Minister that was thereafter assassinated. They believe that we need to reach a compromise with the Palestinians and

ultimately believe in the two state solution. At that time I was a soldier, I opposed it, but I could understand the other side. I can understand that they had a theory that if we hand over land, they'll fulfill, the Palestinians will fulfill their national aspirations and will live side by side by peace. And a slim majority of Israelis believe, yeah. Hence what happened was already in the nineties as we handed more land over to the Palestinians, it started in the labor government, then Netanyahu continued and handed, I believe about 13% of Judea and Samaria, the AKA, the West Bank

to the Palestinians, we began seeing more and more terror from the very areas we vacated. What happened in the Oslo Accords though, was the Palestinians formed an entity, a government, called the Palestinian Authority. And a big tract of Judean Samaria, of the controversial territories, was handed to them, almost half. And they govern it to this day. What happened in October 2000, there was a violent, um, uprise and war against Israel that started and it manifested itself in, um, daily suicide attacks that, uh, where Palestinians came in usually with explosive vests, entered a bus in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, blew themselves up, killing a dozen Israelis almost every day.

It was horrible. It was a terrible period. And I had been living in Manhattan running my company, but the R&D center was in Israel, it was back and forth. And finally we had enough. And in March of 2002, we went forward with Operation Defensive Shield and we recaptured those territories militarily. And to this day, the way it runs is they govern themselves on the civilian aspect. So we don't, they have their own government, they had elections. It's a democratic government, though they only had elections once.

They pay their own taxes, they have their own anthem, their own parliament, whatever, what have you. But the overall security responsibility is Israel's. And that's why we don't have the sort of terror stemming from the PA that we saw from Gaza. Okay. Okay. So, so let me switch a bit to, to, I'm going to ask you a complicated question. I want to lay out, if you don't mind, how the situation in Israel looks to me, not that that's particularly important, but it'll give you a chance to restructure the story if necessary.

I want to tell you how it looks to me from the outside. And I've been trying to sort this out very carefully in my imagination, so that I can have a clear head about the circumstances in the Middle East. Okay, so I'm going to of, the first thing they indicate is that there are profound divisions within the Arab world with regard to Israel and how Israel should be treated and dealt with. And the Abraham Accords formalized an agreement with a number of Arab states that Israel should be regarded

as a valuable trading partner. Now, the reason for that, as far as I'm concerned, is threefold. The previous approach wasn't working. Israel's proved itself to be an economic powerhouse. It's starting to, it's like a second Silicon Valley in many ways. There are extreme economic advantages

to partnering with Israel, trading with Israel, learning from the Israeli experience. And then Israel is also a formidable military powerhouse. And so the combination of those three things was sufficient along with some alteration in the stance on the more forward-looking Arab side to make agreements of peace with Israel a reality. And we saw that happen in the Abraham Accords.

Now, my sense is the Abraham Accords are viewed with something you might describe as extreme skepticism and horror even by the Iranians most fundamentally, because they don't want to see that. They're sworn enemies of the United States. They're sworn enemies of Israel. They're sworn enemies of many of the Arab states that signed the Abraham Accords.

They are seriously not happy about this. And they'll do anything to undermine and destroy it along with Israel and the United States. And so, okay. So then let's think about that in relationship to Palestine. So you're putting forward something approximating a two-state solution.

That's been a solution that's been proffered in the past. But the problem with the two-state solution is it's predicated on the idea that the parties involved in establishing the states want states and they want peace. And my sense of it is that Iran would sacrifice every single Palestinian in a heartbeat if they could do serious damage to Israel and the United States in doing so.

And Iran continually funds the agitators in, let's say Hamas and Hezbollah, for example, to do nothing but cause Israel and the United States problems and they don't give a damn in any way, shape or form about the Palestinians. That's exactly right. And so I don't understand at all, first of all how the Israelis can negotiate with the Palestinians

with the Iranians lurking behind them, doing nothing but causing trouble and funding at every possible opportunity, every way of breaking down any possibility of peace because what do they care whether the Palestinians make peace with the Israelis? That's just annoying to them from a foreign policy perspective. So I don't see any victory, I don't see any potential for solving that problem as long as Iran is pulling the strings behind the scenes. It's in their best interest given their stated foreign

policy objectives to keep the Palestinians and the Israelis at each other's throats for as long as possible. And if that does in the Palestinian people, oh well, you know, collateral damage in the bigger game. And then, okay, so I want to add it. So uninformed people in the West might be thinking that by standing with the poor oppressed Palestinians, they're, what would you say? They're showing their solidarity

with the oppressed people of the world. And, but they're certainly not allied with the mainstream of peace-loving Arabs around the world, peace-loving Muslims, as far as I'm concerned, and they're crawling into bed with a state that's hated not least by its own people. Like it's a brutal, awful, terrible state,

and it wants to destroy the United States and Israel. And so all the protesters on American campuses who are hypothetically supporting the poor, oppressed, victimized Palestinians. And I know there's plenty of complex things to say about that are really acting as proxy agents for Iran. And the command he came out on X Twitter, not very many months ago, and basically said exactly that, congratulating the American protesters, for example, for

supporting his agenda. Right. I mean, it was mind boggling. It didn't seem to slow down the protests at all. Okay. So the first question, having laid that out, is like, is there anything that I'm missing with regards to the positioning of Iran in relationship to Israel in the United States? I think you've hit the nail on its head.

About a decade ago, I came up with a strategy against Iran, and I called it the octopus, terror octopus or octopus strategy. The first thing was to understand what's going on, and then you can build a strategy. What's going on in the Middle East is about 70% of the problems in the entire Middle East stem from the Islamic Republic of Iran. I would view it, it's a very radical regime, by the way, also incompetent and corrupt, a bit similar to the Soviet Union of the 80s. But what it does, it exports its ideology and terror with its arms all across the Middle

East. Every country it touches, it ultimately destroys. It's like the anti-mitus touch. Look at Lebanon, look at Syria, look at Iraq. It's like the anti-mitus touch. Look at Lebanon, look at Syria, look at Iraq. It's like Yemen. So in all these places, it builds a local proxy, sometimes based on Shiites that live there, but not always. For example, Hamas is a Sunni organization. It empowers them, it funds them, it provides them weapons, it trains them, and ultimately it also commands them to generate terror, not only against Israel generally, but also against Israel.

Now, if, and I'll say straight at this point, we need to topple the Iranian regime. That's what we need to do. And it will fall. The mistake that Israel has made for the past 30 years, and I was a soldier, I was fighting Hezbollah, which is essentially the fingertip of one of its tentacles. The mistake was that we have expended and exhausted ourselves fighting those fingertips of the octopus and instead of directing our energy to topple the goddamn head of the octopus. And what I did as prime minister, I gradually read, I wanted to not

have wars on our borders because that's playing to their strategy and redirected our efforts to the head of the octopus. Israel has done a lot of work throughout the years on the nuclear dimension, but my point was it's not only about nuclear. Let's topple the regime. Now, how do you do it? I'm not talking about all-out war. I look at the Cold War as a very good, you know, analogy. And ultimately the Soviet Union fell without war. America never bombed. You know what I did when I became prime minister? The first month on my job, I dedicated to deep study of Iran, its society, its economy, and what America did in the 80s to accelerate the toppling of the Soviet Union.

It turns out America did a lot. Reagan's America empowered oppositions in Eastern Europe. Why can't we do that? It strengthened the enemies of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, Mujahideen, etc. Later it had unintended consequences. But my point is that we need America and Israel and the West to apply tremendous diplomatic economic pressures and covert, overt cyber, lots of stuff to accelerate the demise of Iran. This regime will fall because it's much weaker than we think. So to continue the octopus.

What sort of support do you think the Iranian government has in Iran itself? I mean, my sense is- Very little. It's despised by its people. I'm saying this as a fact. It has all the plagues of this sort of regime. The children of the leaders are all corrupt, you know, driving in their cars, Lamborghinis, whatever, while the people in many areas of Iran don't even have good tap water.

Right. And it could be a very rich country. It is. And it was doing quite well in the 70s on that regard. Yeah. And so I believe that this regime will topple, will fall either, but it could be in 50 years or it could be in five years. And what I did when I met the Biden administration and the folks there outlined a bunch of about 30 different vectors of action that we can take, soft action, and sort of divided the job between us and them.

There's some areas that we could, give you an example. Every time there's protests there, you know what the first thing the regime does? It turns off the internet. So you can't communicate. Why don't we ensure that the internet's on with technologies like Starlink, et cetera? There's lots of stuff, easy stuff,

cheap stuff that we can do to accelerate the top link. All we need to do is help the Iranian people, which are a great people. And unfortunately, my successor discontinued this policy but I think it's time to go for that. And so what sort of, what do you see happening in the West, in the United States, with the rest of the Western countries,

with regard to their stance contra Iran? And I'd like to hear about what you think is being done that's actually effective and also what you think is being done that isn't effective or counterproductive. By and large, they're not doing enough. And everything I described, there's a bunch of moderate Arab states, Saudis, Emirates, Bahrain, Egypt, let's say Jordan.

There's lots of subtleties here, but I would just say all of them hate radical Islam. Hate radical Islam in one of two strands, either the Shiite strand, which is Iran, or the Sunni strand, which is the Muslim Brotherhood. They can't always voice this publicly, but they need Israel to lead the way. Their biggest dream is for Israel to step up to the plate. Step up to the plate and what in relationship to radical Islam? Fight radical Islam, weaken it, choke the money. There's so much that we can do with great ROI.

I mean, it's not the most complicated stuff that we're not doing. America is perceived in the region, and I'm not gonna talk about one side or another, as unstable and sort of doesn't see things through. So, you know, you might be there today, but you're out tomorrow. And in this sense, Israel is there. We're here to stay.

We didn't choose our neighborhood, but we're stuck in the neighborhood and we're a reliable partner. Granted, October 7th, we took a hit on our credibility because it should not have happened. But I think we're in the process of strengthening again, and you know, stuff that's happened over the past month or so that seemed pretty clever. That's the sort of thing that we've got to be doing. So let's talk about radical Islam for a minute. And maybe we can use that as a entry point

into discussing the relationship between religion and politics more broadly. Cause I would really like to do that. So the first issue is, it's interesting to me that there are a variety of forward looking leaders in the Muslim world, who for example, have been pushing forward the Abraham Accords, normalization of relations

with Israel, but even more importantly, the establishment of truly productive relations. So it's obviously that within the broader confines of the Islamic world, the possibility for peace and productive peace exists. Absolutely. Okay, okay. So now then the next issue,

I'm trying to work this out in the West in general. So, you know, there's always a percentage of truly bad actors in any population. So the psychological data indicates that the prevalence of pure psychopathy in the population is to be conservative, let's say 3%. So those are seriously bad actors. And we want to say a few things about the psychopathic types, okay? So they're Machiavellian, they only use their language to manipulate for their own

benefit, right? They're parasitic predators, that makes them psychopathic. They're narcissistic, that makes them psychopathic. They're narcissistic, which means they want undeserved attention and will do anything to get it. And to top it all off, because that's not enough, they have strong proclivity towards sadism, which is positive delight in the unnecessary suffering of others. Okay, so these are bad actors. Now, the question is, how do they operate? And we actually know the answer to that. They like to hide behind a mask of victimization

because that's very effective. So the psychopathic types are always claiming that they're the victims and that there are people they can identify as oppressors and the moral thing is to stand with them. But the other thing they do is hijack the political agenda on both sides.

So for example, the psychopaths will use compassion to manipulate the left and they'll use free speech issues to manipulate the right. But they don't care because they're not political at all. What they are is out for themselves 100%. And then what even makes the situation more dire is that the psychological literature indicating that the psychopathic types can be rehabilitated is dismal, to say the least. They can't. It's good to know.

No is the simple answer. And again, I'm speaking of, I'm speaking, let's say, of the 1% of criminals who are responsible for 65% of the crimes. It's not corrigible. Okay. Okay. Now, you know, the person who deviates from the path of law and order and makes a mistake once, that's a whole different issue. But I don't think that this is the explanation to what's going on in the Islamic world because while there are psychopaths like Saddam Hussein was a psychopath, definitely, and Yaya Sinwar was a psychopath,

I'm not sure other radical Islam leaders are necessarily psychopaths. I think they truly believe that the world needs to act according to Sharia law. And the- Well, this is what I'm trying to untangle. It's like, it's such a difficult thing because you have on the one hand,

the obvious fact that there's much movement in the Islamic world to establish peace with Israel and to move their populations forward in a productive manner. But then you have this core and separating out the religious claims from the manipulation of the religious claims by the self-interested psychopaths.

That's a very difficult thing to manage. I think what undermines this case is the numbers. I think, look, I don't have the data regarding what percentage of Muslims support radical Islam. I'm not saying they engage in terrorism, but they support my hunches, a fairly high percentage. And, and, and we can't just attribute. Are they better? Are they? Okay. I can push back slightly because... No, no, fine. We're debating. Well, I'm wondering, you know, is that also because it's easier for the psychopathic self-interested manipulators to manipulate a comparatively under-educated population and to get away

with their claims that really what they're doing is abiding by the doctrines of the one true religion? Right. You know, because when you're dealing with a population whose fundamental, ideational structure is encapsulated within a single religious viewpoint, it's a lot easier for the bad actors to manipulate that. So, they definitely use this, first of all, to deflect all their incompetence. Yes, yes, definitely.

But that doesn't mean you're a psychopath. It just means, you know, you're a cynical person and you want to continue governing. I've seen lots of people do that. And I think that the, I'll tell you what I think about how we need to go about fighting radical Islam. And this is something that evolved. I think, especially in the case of Gaza, everyone asks me, but Hamas is an ideology and you can't kill an ideology. That's

half true. I agree that there's no point in trying to persuade people, don't be radical, don't be Hamas supporters. Hamas enjoys a great popular support in the Palestinians population, about two thirds. But there is a way to get them away from Hamas by defeating Hamas. I'll give you an analogy. Had we, you probably know way better than me, let's say, hypothesis. Had we done a poll in Nazi Germany in December of 44?

Right, everyone knew where it's going. My belief, I have no basis for this, is that a vast majority of Germans still supported the Nazi ideology. It's likely, very likely, yeah. Now, within several years after the war, we had a new Germany. What happened was there was a step before persuading their hearts and minds that Nazism is bad, there was something way more important, that Nazism is gone.

So first defeat Hamas, first defeat the Nazis. And so it's no longer a matter of whether it's good or bad, it's gone. It's gone. We killed them. They're done. Now get on with life, and only then, I think, I'm asking you actually, psychologically can the individual open his mind to your other arguments. Well, I think there is. Well, first of all, we hope so. That's what I think that we need to do. We need to defeat Hamas and then begin changing the hearts and minds. Well, I think the historical precedents that you outlined are the correct ones. The same thing happened in Japan.

And very rapidly, right? And very thoroughly. I mean, Japan went from that warlike state that it was to a very peaceful and productive society overnight. Well, and you can say exactly the same thing about Germany. So, you know, and thank God for that. All right. So, so there's good historical precedent, whether that's the relevant case, that's a different issue.

But what's not unreasonable happened. happened, we have no success in sustainable Arab democracies. It's just a fact. You look, none of the countries in the Middle East, even the stable ones, are democracies. And it gets you thinking that maybe we're trying to implement something to square a circle, and maybe there needs to be some sort of hybrid. Give you an example. One of the great leaders today, I believe, is Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed of the Emirates. He's a remarkable guy.

And are the Emirates a full-blown democracy? No, they aren't. But is he doing good? Is the vector a good one? Absolutely. And so we have to be creative about these sort of things, not impose our values and structures where it won't necessarily succeed. Well, we don't, this gets us farther down the religious rabbit hole too. We don't know what the grounds for democracy are. Right.

You know, democracy emerged in its modern form as an offshoot of Judeo-Christian culture. And I think you can make a strong case that, and I've felt this particularly from studying the thinkers of the Scottish enlightenment is that once the presumptions of Judeo-Christian morality are axiomatic, it's possible to erect a democracy that's functional and stable. That's very interesting. There are preconditions for liberal individualism and one of the preconditions is that your

society is basically peaceful and everybody trusts one another. Right, and then while now you can all go out there and be individual and liberal and very in your creative ways and that'll work. It isn't fluke obviously that there aren't functional democracies in the Arab world. Now, why there aren't functional democracies are a hard thing to pull off. And there's many places in the world that don't have functional democracies

are hard in America and in Israel as well. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And they've had a hard time really getting themselves going in South America, for example, like the one countries that were settled by England tend to have functional democracies and countries that were settled by any other country, France, Spain, Portugal. And Israel's a remarkable miracle in that sense, because the Jews had been in exile in diaspora for 2000 years. They didn't have, you know, we were organized in small communities, not in, not as a nation. And to have these folks come from all around the world back to our homeland

and form a stable democracy, it in itself is a miracle. That's for sure. But you know, when you think about it, it makes sense because Judaism, as it evolved in the diaspora and previously in the two previous states we had in Israel was a very democratic and open for debate society. Let me tell you something. Open for debate. Yeah.

Yeah. The debate is at the core of Judaism. You know, when you have the Orthodox Jews study Talmud, Talmud, essentially, people don't know what I'm going to... about this. Talmud is sort of the law code of Judaism. But the Talmud's not about the bottom line. It's not a set of... It's not a book of rules.

It's a very... You can fill a library with it. What it is, it's debates between rabbis. They debate the most arcane, strange topics, but no one cares about the bottom line. You learn to debate. It's a very intellectually challenging thing. It's like a combination of mathematics and logic, but it's all about debate. And then 400 years later, rabbis in Europe continued that or North Africa continued the debate, layers of debate. And the method of study in Judaism is also unique.

It's called Hevrutah. Here's how they taught Jews for millennia. Two guys sit one next to another and learn together and debate. That's what they do. You don't sit, the structure was not a teacher in a classroom. And we've been doing this for thousands of years. And I believe, by the way, that's part of the secret of the startup nation is that we're such a debating people and at its best it brings you innovations. I remember in my startup company we were yelling at each other the whole time. You know anyone who came into my company heard screaming between the

VPR and DIN and but it was positive. At its worst it can tear apart societies when the debate is not for the right reasons. Yeah, well, so that means upward oriented debate. Well, it seems to me that that implies that maybe one of the things that the Jewish state and Christian or Judeo-Christian democracies have in common is something like a conceptualization or an embodiment of the logos, right? The idea that the way that you make progress forward is through thought and that's mediated by speech and that speech has to be free and it can be intense.

And so think about that. The most respected person in the community for those 2000 years was the rabbi. And the rabbi was typically the smartest guy. He was best at studying Talmud. That's how the most famous rabbis like Maimonides was also a physician. And first and foremost, they were the best at study and by the way, they also got the best, their children got the best marriages of usually the wealthy and that created a very positive cycle, a genetic cycle, which made for very smart folks all across the Jewish world. The good thing is that rabbis get married and have kids.

Priests do not. And so you take a really smart guy, but then he doesn't have descendants. Yeah, that's a problem. Yeah, yeah. By the way, in Israel today, Israel is the only Western country in the world with positive demographic growth.

Right, right, that's a remarkable thing too. It is. I wonder why, why do you think? I don't know. You don't know. I don't know. You know, I have all kinds of ideas. By the way, people think it's only because of the ultra-orthodox,

because they do have a lot of kids, but even if you carve them out, the secular are also net positive. You need 2.1 to retain a population. We're at about 2.3 with the secular and all in all at three kids per family. I don't know exactly why. Yeah, well, that's a real mystery. I mean, it seems to indicate something, you know, it's a wild hypothesis that there's a certain degree of existential threat that might optimally

facilitate the desire to have children, right? I agree. I think that's part of it. You can be more cavalier, I suppose, about life in general. Like, one of the things I noticed about being in Jerusalem, I've been there a couple of times, is the intensity of life. It's an unbelievably intense place. Jerusalem is intense, yeah. And people, you know, in some ways people are conducting themselves as if

tomorrow is uncertain. Now they're wealthy and they have opportunity, but tomorrow is still uncertain. And I wonder if, you know, Hemingway said at one point that every generation needed a war to sort out what was important and sufficient existential threat might play that role of focusing. You're on to a very salient point. Because October 7th shook us. I grew up, I was born in 72, a year before Yom Kippur War, which was sort of the last time that we thought existentially that we were at a threat.

So I cannot remember it. And my childhood in Mount Carmel in Haifa was very similar, by the way, to the mountains over here. Was a very standard and regular Western childhood. And my whole generation grew up taking Israel for granted. We did not feel that there's any existential threat. October 7th shook that complacency. We now understand it again what's evolved from October 7th, by the way. This is a fascinating insight that not many people are aware of. On October 7th, basically there's two stories. One is a massive institutional failure of the state of Israel on our most fundamental objective, which is to protect

Jews from pogroms, from a long massacre and Jews being helpless. You know, we've always had terror, but a terror attack usually wraps itself up within five seconds to five minutes. It's done. This was different. So it was a huge failure of intelligence, of operations, and the government melted down for the month subsequent. That's the bad news. But the amazing news is that we discovered that the younger generation of Israel, boys and girls, let's say from 18 to 40,

are incredibly strong, tough, courageous, willing to sacrifice their lives. Let me illustrate this. On that morning of Sabbath, October 7th, as the news percolated, thousands of Israelis, boys and girls got in their cars, civilians, and drove down to the Gaza area to fight and defend people they've never met. There are brothers and sisters that they've never met.

Many of them lost their lives while doing it. And that is the supreme level of courage. And you know, I was in Manhattan on September 11th. That's where my headquarters were. I remember the buildings on fire and there was a river of people running away to the north or walking very quickly to the north. Only the firefighters went south, which is okay. People move from harm's way. But this younger generation on October 7th just went

and fought sometimes with their bare hands, sometimes with a pistol against machine guns. And these boys and girls are the toughest we've had. And, you know, when I compare them to boys and girls of their age, let's say 21 year olds, let's say here in America, I do a lot of universities. And I see the nonsense that they're being fed with or the way they're being developed versus our kids. It's not that I would choose this.

It's a horrible thing to have to fight wars, but we are developing, I coined the term, a nation of lions, a courageous younger generation, tough, resilient, being embedded with values of work ethics, working as a team, dedicating yourself, spending 10 months fighting terrorists and then I see what kids here, you know, they need the right pronoun, otherwise they're triggered and they need a safe space and microaggressions and all this nonsense

which... Neurotic suffering. ...builds very feeble people. Because I have a news flash. The world out there is a tough world. And you need strong kids. And the reason I'm so optimistic about the next 50 years of Israel, this is our finest generation. You remember American GIs came back from Europe,

and they carried America for its best 50 years from 45 to let's say 2000. These boys and girls, including my own son and daughter, my oldest son, Yoni, he's now joined the army in a combat unit, but he was still a civilian this year. You know what he did the entire year? He volunteered with children of evacuees and went to do farming because we didn't have hands to do it. My daughter was volunteering in farming, but they're typical. They're not unique and I'm so darn proud of them. And I know that that year of farming or fighting

is developing them so much more than any university. So by the time they're going to enter this civilian world after army, we are manufacturing these super men and women who are going to carry Israel forward, innovation, self-reliance, responsibility. They're going to be amazing. And we don't know how much that like kind of a heroic commitment to the future has to be inculcated or developed in young men and young women so that they'll take up the responsibility, for example, any responsibility for that matter, but certainly the responsibility of having a family. And so, and I guess part of the problem possibly with being wealthy and secure is that you can always,

it always appears as though you can put things off. Right? You can always wait another day or another week. Yeah, well, tick tock, man, life's short. And you miss things a lot faster than you think. And so, you know, like I've calculated, for example, and I think this is about right, that the typical person is lucky with regard to,

so we know, for example, that half of women in the West now will be childless at 30 and half of them will never have a child. Right. That's the 90% of them, peers will regret it. That's one in four. So it's one in two at 30 who don't have a partner or a child. This is already, you know, I came back from South Korea last week. Yeah. There are 0.8. Yeah, yeah. They're not having kids.

Exactly. And you're going to have one kid who's going to have to support four grandparents. Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Not sustainable. Well, and I was thinking about establishing a relationship. You know, you're a fortunate person indeed if you get to try out five people in your lifetime. Like, you know, people don't understand

how constrained the choice realm is even for people who are highly successful. Like, you could easily be, I imagine it's probably one in five people who don't have five people to choose from. You know, in the course of sequence- As a mate. Yeah, yeah, in terms of sequential relationships.

Well, you imagine it takes... What? If the person's a stranger, it takes a year to sort of assess them, something like that. Really? Well, I mean... Is that... Well, that's the question. Like, how long does it take you to reasonably assess someone romantically and practically as a long term partner? You know, it's going to be something between six months

and a year. Because not that I'm not espousing this, but the ultra-orthodox Jews, they don't have any of this. They have set marriages. They have an opportunity to meet three, four times, but that's about it. And then they get married with very low divorce rates.

I cannot attest whether they're happy, they're unhappy. I have got no idea, but it's very interesting. It gets you thinking. Yeah, well, definitely. Well, it's a complicated problem to solve. And so you're lucky if you have five kicks at the can. And that's completely independent of the question of whether alternative forms of marital arrangement

are more appropriate. Lots of cultures have used them. And I don't think there's any evidence at all that those people are necessarily more unhappy or that the relationships are less stable, right? I think people in those relationships probably assume that they're gonna have to do some work on an ongoing basis to make it work

right from the beginning. But my point is more that it's easy to overestimate the amount of time you have to do anything. Like the window to have children is relatively short. The window to get married is very short. And the advantage of a certain degree of existential threat is it brings that home. Right?

And so... You know what, continuing that point, there's now a very positive wave of young men and women, the most talented, that I get phone calls almost every day of amazing people that would have gone to the private sector and now they say, you know, we need to save Israel and we're going to get this influx of the most talented people because this was not the case in Israel. By and large for the past several decades, very, you know, the best of the best went to high tech and now we're going to get some of them or even successful entrepreneurs entering politics. I'm fairly rare.

I think I'm the only, certainly the only prime minister was the CEO of a company, but founder and in politics, I'm one of the very few that came from high tech and founded a company, ran two companies, knows business, and we're gonna get this best and brightest into Israel's public sector. And that's why I'm incredibly optimistic, except barring the one issue which I talked about, which is the domestic wars. I believe-

The polarization. The polarization. I think Lincoln said a house divided cannot stand. And that is true with the Jews, especially true with the Jews. Do you know, Jordan, the current state of Israel is the third instance we have a sovereign Jewish state in the land of Israel. We had it twice before, what's called First Temple, that was King David and Solomon, then several hundred years later. The second temple for several hundred years. But what people don't realize that in our first Commonwealth and second one, we were united and sovereign only for about 80 years.

David's grandchild, Rehoboam, Solomon's son, he screwed up and the kingdom of Israel divided into Judea, two tribes, and Israel, 10 tribes, and they never got together again. And subsequently, the Assyrians conquered Israel, those 10 tribes, and we lost them. We lost 80% of the Jewish people. And all Jews today are descendants of Judea. That's why we're called Jews. So it was because of an internal divide that we lost our sovereignty. Fast forward to our second to Commonwealth. Also it went on as a sovereign state only 75 years. The Hashmonites, Judah, the Maccabees, et cetera. Their great grandchildren, there were two brothers

who fought each other in the year 76 of the kingdom. I think we're talking about 80 BC. And it was Jews who invited the Romans into Judea back then. We were so stupid because we couldn't get along. And now Israel's in its eighth decade. And this time we have to get it right because the most important thing is the eternity of the state of Israel.

But my point is what killed us twice before was domestic divide, internal division, not external enemies. So I want to return to the issue of, there's two issues you brought up that I'd like to discuss if that's okay. Everyone outside of Israel and obviously many people within Israel are wondering how did the events of October 7th come about? Now, we already outlined the structure of Israel's external enemies. Have Iran, you have them in coutts with Hamas. There's all sorts of bad players there.

So they're just looking for an opportunity. You said the internal division that was obvious in Israel. Massive distraction. You know, if our enemies could choose one wish, it would be year 2023, the internal divide. Like if you were a genie and you came to Khamenei and said, what do you pray for? He would say that there's internal division, those eight or nine, 10 months, 10 terrible months of division where we're killing each other. So that's his best wish. Right, right. And as I said, had they not attacked, I don't know what

would have been left of our country because we were killing ourselves. And it seemed almost insolvable, unsolvable. And so I would call it weapon of mass distraction is what happened. We don't need, you know, there's tons of Iranian bots that are fomenting and Russian bots, but we're doing a good enough job killing ourselves, even without the Iranians and the Russians. And we Israelis have to tackle this and solve it. And the only way, in my opinion, is unity governments, left and right, bipartisan for the next decade.

To bring the warring sides together. Yeah, because you're in the tent. Right. Well, you are anyways, right? You're stuck with each other anyways, regardless of how divided you are. Well, the same thing is the case in the United States with the 50-50 divide between the Republicans and the Democrats. What you've seen over the past 30, 40 years, you know, those famous polls that would you

have your child marry someone who's Democratic if you're a Republican and the huge divide which happened in America and that sort of thing might happen in Israel if we... That's where it gets terrible because it's fine to have different policies, but I won't marry someone who you know whose parents hold a different political opinion. Yeah. Because it's not about opinions. It's about tribalism in the negative sense. Yeah. So one of the things that's very mysterious to outsiders. And as I said, likely Israelis themselves is like, how do you account in a non-finger pointing way, let's say, for this apparent massive security failure?

When I look at that, I think, I'm trying to put myself in the position of the security people. And I know a tiny bit about security, having to be concerned about it from time to time. It's a lot harder to keep things secure than it looks. Yes. There's lots of points of attack and entry and unless your state is totalitarian to the

extreme and you're watching everyone for every second, God only knows what your enemies are going to get up to. Well, I think that there's a couple of things. So we talked about one, the fact that we weakened ourselves and distracted ourselves. I mean, quite literally, we were focusing not on our enemies, but on ourselves. And by the way, so fragmented attention and think of when you have very talented and smart people using their energy to kill each other, they'll do a good job at it because Israelis tend to be

very talented and smart. So if you direct it inward, you'll kill yourself. That's definitely, I think this would not have happened if we didn't have that horrible year of 2023. I also would say that this is sort of a rule in history of mental rigidity of leaderships, sort of what happens in terms of intelligence. Think Stalin Barbarossa.

Stalin Barbarossa, you had the German army amass hundreds of thousands, I believe even millions of soldiers on the border with the Soviet Union. You had all the information there, but there was a concept and a worldview that he was convinced that there's going to be peace with Hitler and he didn't let the facts confuse him. To some extent that happened here. We looked down at Hamas.

Hamas was sort of the weak little brother that the government had erected, you know, this big wall and fence with all these gadgets and technology. And it was a sense that it cannot be penetrated. And then when the facts began coming, I think there was a not good environment in the intelligence system that did not foster dissent. The best things happen when anyone can speak up. And at the end, a military organization is not democratic. And somehow we know now that some people had thought that there would be attack, but they were silenced. It's a terrible thing. What I try to do in any organization I run, whether it's a high tech company or a platoon or ministry of education or prime minister.

I have a habit of trying to bypass the whole hierarchies and talk to the end people. Almost on a random basis, I give out my cell phone number so I can hear what's going on. But it's, it's hierarchies are very dangerous in that sense. So you think there was some stultification within you? Yes, because you know, you have a distraction, some presumption, some stultification of... Yes. Okay, so now let's turn to this issue of the defeat of Hamas. You talked about your optimism with regards to the restructuring,

the potential restructuring of the attitude of people in Gaza if the Hamas enterprise was taken out. Yeah, I want to qualify that. I'm not sure. Yeah, okay, fine, fine, fine. I can talk about abilities, I can talk about motivations. I don't presume that we have the abilities to drastically influence motivation. What we can do is set up a civil entity there, governed by a combination of Egypt, local competent folks from Gaza, Saudis, Emirates, and stop, immediately stop the incitement in the mosques, in the media, and in the schools.

If we do that, it might succeed, it might not. Right, right, right. I don't know. Right, and that incitement, what proportion of that do you think is, I know you don't have an exact number, but what's your sense of the degree to which that incitement is continually fomented by Iranian actors, for example, funded at least? Well, in Gaza it's a mix between the Iranian, Iran, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

and the Muslim Brotherhood. Muslim Brotherhood is a fairly effective movement. You know, Turkey, it governs Turkey and Erdogan, who's a real bad guy. And in Egypt, there's a lot of grassroots support for Muslim Brotherhood. Tell us about the Muslim Brotherhood. Tell us about the Muslim Brotherhood. We talked about Iran a little bit. Inform us a little bit about the Muslim Brotherhood and what it constitutes, its origins and so forth. So I believe it started fairly early in the previous century. And the idea is to radicalize the people and ultimately to govern by Sharia law, by religion

precisely. And so it's an independent variant of the same ethos that possesses the Islamic Republic of Iran. Right, right. Though Muslim Brotherhood is Sunni and Sunni whereas Iran is Shiite. Right, right. Though Muslim Brotherhood is Sunni and Sunni whereas Iran is Shia. Right, right. So it's a different strand of Islam. Muslim Brotherhood does a lot of social activities in order to garner popular support and it's a fairly simple ideology in that sense. And

they have, you know, branches everywhere. Okay. So let's, let's talk about the, the military and sociological aims of Israel post October 7th. So, um, first of all, I guess I would, here's, here's a bunch of questions. How effective has Israel's military campaign be, been? What do you say to people? I mean, there's constant agitation with regards

to the genocide that Israel is conducting in Gaza. And so what's your view of the manner in which this defensive war has been conducted? And then I would, I'm very curious, like what's a vision of victory? Like, I'm always curious when a war breaks out, and this is because of the way it started in some ways, it's its own unique entity.

But like, I'm very confused about what victory would look like, and what's the victory, what is victory defined by Israel now in relationship to this? So, because you could win the war and lose the public opinion battle, for example, which wouldn't be good. So, I'll answer question one, three and two.

Yeah, okay. Okay. So, how's it going? Well, the military itself has been very successful, very effective. The soldiers, the reservists especially, Israel is based on a massive reserve service, so you continue doing reserve till about 45, the age of 45. However, in my opinion, the government lacks a coherent strategy and did not outline what a victory is. That precise question, we've never been told what does it actually mean.

And, you know, I would have gone about this whole war in a very different way. I thought that we should apply a siege on northern Gaza, allow all the civilians to get out, but we would screen and basically smoke out the terrorists from the tunnels without having to have so much friction and cost for everyone. That was not adopted, that plan, a siege plan. They decided to go in kinetically, which is a legit decision. It has its advantages, but also that is not being prosecuted the way it should. If you're gonna fight, fight.

Right now there's no war in Gaza. There's no fighting going on. We're at 3% intensity and the notion that Israel should have long, low intensity wars of attrition, I don't buy that. I think that's the wrong strategy. Israel should have short, low intensity wars of attrition. I don't buy that. I think that's the wrong strategy. Israel should have short, high intensity wars if we have to do a war.

That's what we always did. The 56 year war was just a few days. The six day war was indeed six days. Yom Kippur war was two and a half weeks. And suddenly we're in this protracted, dragged on thing. Why is it bad for us? Many reasons. First and foremost, global opinion

needs short time span for us to, right? Even if it's very high intensity, lots of buildings fell or whatever, but you move on. There's something new on the agenda. Some, I don't know, Taylor Swift comes out with a new song and everyone changes topic. But the fact that we're dripping this and we're always going to be inferior in world opinion. So the less they talk about us, the better off we are.

That's one mistake. Second one, it also puts tremendous pressure on our economy, on our reservists, and that's exactly what Iran wants us to do. Iran wants to exhaust us in a slow dripping war. That's why I think I would surge and defeat, and if we're not going to do that, I would cut a deal, a big deal with and bring the hostages home. We need them to come home and fight another day. What does victory look like? Again, I can say what I would have set the parameters.

It's Hamas raising a white flag because the and getting on ships and being transferred the five thousand or ten thousand hamasnicks being transferred out of Gaza to some Arab state. But we let them live. That would be the deal. And the leverage would be if you don't do that, we're going to kill you. But we're not doing that. So we don't have those key players already identified those key players already identified? Those 5,000?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We, you know, ultimately we're probably going to be able to kill Yichy Sanwar and get the hostages home without the... We have a hundred hostages that Hamas is still holding, a hundred Israelis that were kidnapped from their beds at 6.30 or seven in the morning, just citizens of Israel. And the most fundamental ethos in Israel is you don't forget anyone,

you don't leave anyone behind, and this is unacceptable. In the U.S., there's been widespread protests, especially on university campuses, but also spilling through the cities. And you see that in London, for example, you see it in France. It's a worldwide campaign. And so, first of all, what's your sense of how those campaigns were organized and who's lurking behind the scenes there? And then I guess the next thing I'd like to know is

what you have an opportunity, many opportunities, but this is one of them at least, to say something to people who believe that they're on the side of the good when they're protesting Israel's actions in the Middle East after October 7th. So let's start with those protests emerged very rapidly and they're very, very, very, very well organized. I mean, I've seen the plans, for example, for the protesters and their community at UCLA. I mean, it's a multi-pol strategy. Yeah. So it's at hand, right?

And I believe they pulled in the Antifa types and the professional protesters and they more or less know what they're doing. But it works. Clearly, it's working. I see here a merge of two different strands that almost are opposite of each other but in a peculiar way they they they merge. The first one is radical Islam. We're not going to change any of their minds and I believe that there's significant money, you know, Qatari money, Iranian money, being funneled towards us. Qatar, by the way, is in my eyes a terrible regime whose hands are soaked in blood. And they have a facade of World Cup and this and Olympics and stuff like that.

But they play a two-sided game. They foment, support, fund terror as we speak, and they pretend to be Western, you know, progressive folks. And like Iran, everyone at least knows that Iran is a terrible regime. So that's one strand. And the other strand is radical, progressive, woke idiots, for the lack of a better term. Naive people who view the world in a neo-Marxist frame where there's always a victim and a victimizer. And Israel, you know, look, I've got white skin here. So I'm the bad guy by definition. Forget the fact that the land of Israel has been my homeland for 3,800 years. Forget the fact that

much of those 3,800 years we had a state in Israel and when we weren't in that state we were praying three times a day. I pray every morning we will return to Jerusalem. Now we are in Jerusalem and it's incredibly difficult to pull someone out of that frame because basically if you're the aggressor and he's the victim, he's allowed to do anything. He's allowed to murder people, torture people because he's the victim. And factually that just is not true. The Arabs have huge areas of land, I think hundreds of times the size of Israel. I'd let your viewers know, they probably don't know, Israel in its entirety is the size of New Jersey.

That's how big we are. It's a tiny, tiny country. before the Jews came back home beginning in the late 1800s, it was a desolate, barren, miserable land, infested with mosquitoes and malaria. And there was always Jewish presence, but it wasn't under Jewish governance. But as Jews came around the world and began to flourish this desolate land, Arabs began coming from Iraq, from Egypt, in their names, Palestinian names, many of them are called El Masri, which means Egypt.

Masr is Egypt, El Bagdadi, El this, El that. So you see that, which is fine, that's okay. But the, you know, go get a life, stop being victims, go build your future. And it seems to me that they, their core ideology is to prevent us from having a state and not, rather than them having their own future. Yeah, well, the victim-victimizer narrative is a very pervasive. You tell me though, you know, because tell me why are so many people against Israel and what can we do about it?

I'm, you're the psychiatrist here. Well, I think part of it is the politics of envy. You know, the Jews are the perennially successful minority. Even in the story of Exodus, the reason that the Pharaoh rises up against the Jews is because they're disproportionately successful in Egypt, even though the Egyptians were beholden to them not long before that. They're disproportionately successful. Okay, so... So Joseph helped Egypt thrive. Right, right, absolutely. Which, so part of that narrative is that the influx of Jews was actually of great utility to the Egyptian population.

But then the Jews became disproportionately successful and that always happens. It always happens. And so then the issue is, well, what do you do with the disproportionately successful? And the response to that is twofold. You can be happy for the fact of their productivity and their success because they share their knowledge

and their abilities with everyone around them. And the rising tide lifts all boats. Or you can decide that anybody who has more took it and is a thief and a crook. And there's always corruption in every enterprise. So there's always things you can point to. So what I see is that the Jews are also the perennial canary in the coal mine.

When societies take a turn against those who are successful and start to define them as criminals, the Jews are the first people to be targeted. And all that indicates is that all the successful... That's more in socialist type societies or communist societies that, but you know, anti-Semitism also thrived when Jews were miserable and unsuccessful. So we weren't always, not in every pocket were we successful and yet, like, it's everywhere. Well, there's also, you know, the mere fact that ethnic differences can easily be inflamed and that people are radically, you know, we're relatively insular by our psychology. You know, it's me and then it's me and my family and then it's me and my family and my community. Right. It's harder for us to extend that ethos of concern as people get more distal and there's...

Which makes sense by the way. Well, of course it does because something has to mediate in group identity or we wouldn't be social, right? Obviously I care more about my child than a stranger, right? Right, right. And you might say, well, you shouldn't because there's no logical reason. Right. Right, we joined her to that is, well, I don't have infinite resources. That's right. I can't care for every child in the world with the same intensity as I would for my own child because there's too many of them and too little of me.

So I'm going to be local. What do you think we can do? Because, you know, sometimes I'm flabbergasted. I'm always interviewing at CNN, BBC and all that. And I feel sometimes I'm barely moving the needle. And, you know, the reality is so different than what we're portrayed and what do you think we can do about it? Well I think going after the victim victimizer narrative is a good long-term strategy because it's extremely pathological and so to the degree

that we've been messaging around this that's in various enterprises that I'm involved in, that's what being one of our primary targets of concern. There's something wrong with the politics of envy. If you divide the world up into oppressor and oppressed, and now you're good merely because you are on the side of the oppressed, or are an ally, like that's just two simple moral equations. And there's every bit of reason for skepticism in relationship to that.

But it's also very bad for you to regard yourself as a victim. Horrible. Because you lose agency and you lose hope and you're subject to someone else's whim. It's so funny, you know, my dad may rest in peace, Jim Bennett, he was raised not far from here in San Francisco. And I guess the biggest thing I took from him was he never whined, he never complained, and it was self-reliance.

That's the, he always faced whatever situation and took responsibility. He didn't talk about it, he just did it. And that is so deeply ingrained in me. And that's why when I see, you know, whiners, and not to say that there isn't discrimination. There's plenty of suffering and discrimination. Yeah.

And there's discrimination and people don't have the same starting point, but it's such a... How will it be able to sustain itself, this ultra-progressive movement, if they manufacture people who are designed to not take responsibility? So it ought to collapse ultimately. Historically, movements like that do collapse. Envious, resentful movements collapse. They don't work. So, well, one of the things that you see in the Old Testament accounts is that the Jewish people are characterized in their covenant with God. They're characterized by, when they're good, they're characterized by a refusal to construe themselves as victims. So the main upward-thrusting theme in the Old Testament accounts is the fact that the

Jews always presume that if there's punishment wreaked upon them, that that's a consequence in some manner of their own insufficiency and not the... Though in the desert during those 40 years, man, they were complaining and whining. Right, right. But that might be the reason that they had to spend 40 years and die out. It is why. So the next generation... It's exactly why. They're also not presented as morally laudable for presenting themselves as victims.

Right. Right. Because Moses is on the side of God and God and Moses share the opinion that the Israelites who are whining away as they make themselves away so painfully through the desert, lost as they are. By the way, you know, if you've ever been to Sinai, if you walk quickly, it could take seven days. Right, right. Well, so the upshot of the story is that if you're confused and resentful enough and you have the habits of slaves, it can take you forever to get nowhere. Right. Right. And that's exactly right.

So they just had to die out. Yeah. Well, it's three generations, right? Something like that. Right. Right. And that is the consequence of their slavish habits, right? They're used to being told what to do, they can't settle their own affairs,

they can't regulate their own behavior. Right. They're very impulsive and hedonistic. As soon as Moses disappears for 15 minutes, they're off dancing naked, drinking too much and worshiping the golden calf. They have the habits of slaves, right? And the rectification of that, and this pertains to what you said earlier about building resilient young people, is that you don't want to raise

young people with the habits of hedonistic slaves. By the way, the 12 spies, so essentially 10 of the spies came back whining and the 12 spies came back saying, all right, you right, it's going to be tough. They didn't, they saw the giants and all that. They said it's going to be tough, but it's a beautiful, wonderful land and let's go do it. Well, it's not surprising that that part of the story popped into your mind because it's very germane to this discussion

is that so Moses and his people are on the threshold of the promised land, right? So they've succeeded in crossing the desert and escaping from tyranny. So they send out scouts of the future, essentially. Right. And some of the scouts come back and say, well, the future is already occupied by people we can't possibly defeat. You are nothing but a power mongering tyrant who led us through the desert. We were better off with the Egyptians. It's like, what's going on here?

If I remember the story correctly, the earth opens up to swallow the faithless scouts. And no, no, no, no, that's a different story. No, the earth opens up on a different guy called Korah. Oh, that's right. Okay, okay, that's right. So anyways, the end of the story is exactly what you said, which is the leadership is transferred to the by the way, they were leaders of their tribes. They weren't just scouts. I mean, yes. So the sages tell us that they

weren't just scouts. They were actually the leaders of the 12 tribes and they had to be replaced. But one of the most fascinating periods is the initial entrance into Israel back then by Joshua and then the subsequent hundreds of years where suddenly a slave nation is governing itself, not as a kingdom, not as a United Kingdom, but as a prize. With distributed responsibility. Very distributed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, in the ethical... Almost too much, by the way, and not too much distribution, but too much selfishness of tribes.

Too many times they didn't help each other when they ought to have. And then comes Saul and King David and unites the whole thing. Right, right, right. Well, the moral upshot of the story is that in the face of the challenges of the future, you're required to be realistically optimistic, right? It's a moral requirement. Yes. And that, yeah, yeah.

I love that term, realistically optimistic. That's my way in life, realistically optimistic. The faith element of that is that, well, yes, of course, this is going to be difficult and challenging and there are ways it could go wrong. But if we maintain our covenant with God and we continue to aim upward and act appropriately, there's no challenges that we can't overcome. Right. And that's the right thing to teach young people.

Realistic, optimistic, and one other element, action-oriented. The Bible is all about action. And generally Judaism, the Jewish faith, cares little about your feelings. So here and there, there are blips, but by and large, you are measured by what you do, not by how you feel. And if you do something wrong, you can't repent just by feeling bad. Or if you see a poor person, all you feel for him. But if you don't act, it doesn't count. It's called a mitzvah, a good deed and a chet, which is a bad deed. That's what I love about and what I take from Judaism primarily is the action oriented element of it. It's all about doing and not

just pontificating. Indication of commitment to faith is manifested in action. By the way, what the Jews responded when Moses came down with the Ten Commandments when they didn't screw up, right? They said in Hebrew, it's called naaseh v'nishma, we shall do and we shall listen, which is a strange thing. He tells the rules and they said, we'll do it and we'll listen, not we'll listen and we'll do. And that's a, there's a meaning to it.

And you as a expert in psychology, I think the best way to inculcate a habit is by doing it. Just by doing it again and again, it becomes part of you as opposed to teaching it. And that's why my dad didn't talk, didn't preach us a lot. He just did. And that's how we learned from them through doing. And so, you know, I have a very strong inclination to action, very little patience with people

who just, you know, talk about it. So let's close, I had asked you if there was anything in particular you'd like to say to the, let's say progressive types who are agitating on behalf of Hamas in the United States and the rest of the West. Like if you were going to say something reasonable to them, you know what I mean? Something that isn't necessarily finger-wagging or dismissive to make a case. Like, how would you explain what they're, how would you explain why what they're doing is misguided? Well, I would start with talking about the state of Israel and its beauty in the following sense.

sense, sometimes I feel that Israel's this experiment of God or someone that puts us smackin' in the middle of all the worst conditions possible in every dimension, you know, no water, so he wants to see how we'll deal with it and we generate water. We have the highest rate in the world of desalinated water. Yeah, an impressive accomplishment. All right, and then we've got no oil, so we have to, you know, mine our mines, right, and build a knowledge base.

Then he puts the craziest enemies around us, and we gotta fight and innovate there. But then he plants them amid in this asymmetric terror where they embed themselves within civilians. And he tells the Jews, you go pave the way and show everyone how to fight terrorists in the most moral way possible. That's what we're doing. I don't know who did that pager thing,

but whoever did that pager thing, it is the single most pinpointed way, because by definition, only bad guys got the pagers, only commanders in Hezbollah got the, and you kill them and maim them. So in a sense, we're showing, we're sort of trailblazers of how you operate with good morals in the real world, not in some theoretical Ivy League university world, but in the real world.

You know, we've got rockets, so we innovate the Iron Dome. The next thing is going to be laser. And I think that our destiny of the state of Israel, first, is to be strong and be. But secondly, we are not only startup nation, but in a sense, a nation that paves the way of solutions to the world's biggest problem. Let me give you one of them. There's a small problem. You have that iPhone over there and we're all addicted to that thing and social networks and what's happening to the younger generation.

I want to tell you about this startup that's dealing with how do we cut that addiction. So it's called Sabbath. It was innovated 3,300 years ago. It's this notion that once a week, Friday afternoon, you turn off all those machines. You don't use them for 25 hours from about 5 p.m. to 6 p.m. Saturday night. And you do this peculiar thing where you sit with your children at a table. You do kiddush, which is the blessing, and you talk about things. You look at your children. You spend two hours at a long dinner without iPhones because you're not allowed to. And that's an example for how we can use the tenets of Judaism to help tackle

some of the world's biggest problems. And so if I had to wrap it up, what is Israel? Israel is the Jewish state, a democratic state. It's 10 million really good people in very tough circumstances who are trying to do their best to flourish and do good. And sitting in Berkeley or in Harvard and, you know, second-guessing us when we're fighting these crazy people. We saw what they want to do. On October 7th, we had a preview of what would happen in all of Israel. It would be a second Shoah, a second Holocaust, if we lay down our arms, if we're soft, if we may.

We don't have any margin of error. As a prime minister, that was the one thing that I If we may, we don't have any margin of error. As a prime minister, that was the one thing that I realized that, you know, I need to govern a country fine. But the first and foremost thing is that we are under existential threat all the time. We have no second chances. So give us that slack. We're not a perfect nation. We're imperfect.

We've got our flaws, but we're trying darn good to be strong and to be good. And that's commendable. And stop, you know, stop this anti-Semitism and this hate against this wonderful country. All right, sir. Well, it was good talking to you. Thank you very much for sitting down with me today.

Much appreciated. Yeah, yeah. Well, and was good talking to you. Thank you very much for sitting down with me today. Much appreciated. Yeah, yeah. Well, and good luck sorting out your internal divisions. Oh, yeah. That's the next big challenge. I don't know yet how we're going to tackle it, but we're going to have to find a solution. Yeah, well, you can at least start by reminding everybody what they have in common. So, and how important that is. That's a good point. Yeah, well, we've been starting to do that sort of thing in the US and in Canada, and trying to identify the core set of values

and beliefs that unite everyone. And there are plenty of them, you know, and that's what defines a nation. So, all right, so for everybody watching and listening, I'm going to continue this discussion, as I always do on the daily wire side. And I think I'll walk Mr. Bennett through his autobiographical history and talk more about,

well, his experiences running his companies and his transition into the political realm. And then also I'd like to expand on that personal narrative to discuss a little bit about the conditions that have made for Israel's remarkable economic and military success, particularly over the last couple of decades. So if you want to join us for that on the Daily Wire side, that's where the discussion is heading. Thank you very much, sir.

Thank you. And to the film crew here in LA today for making the second podcast of the day possible. That's much appreciated.