The Louis Theroux Podcast - S1 EP2: Craig David on relationships, celibacy and Bo Selecta

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

Louis meets singer, songwriter and DJ Craig David. Craig discusses his life and career, including how the TV series Bo Selecta affected his career, the benefits of celibacy and what it was like living in a hotel at Heathrow Terminal 5. Warnings: Contains strong language and sensitive themes. Links: Craig David Presents TS5 / KISS Ibiza https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X13UhVt7UMs  Craig David Album – Born TO Do It https://open.spotify.com/album/5TedEgCbtmvDnXzUtXEFJY?si=W8F2Qu_6RF2fZlcVnFksaA TS5 Craig David Soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/ts5official Bo Selecta Albert Hall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVDo3Z9c5SY Donnie Osmond – Puppy Love https://open.spotify.com/track/7HWH4kGaHR3ZwKNFPT4dSW?si=f50fb581093d4c2a The Ebony Rockers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odscATxcvsE Craig David book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Whats-Your-Vibe-Tuning-into/dp/1529109728 Craig David – What's Your Flava? https://open.spotify.com/track/2keZJNufsIqgoO6w58bNGK?si=870a39c98c8f4ee5   Credits:  Producer: Paul Kobrak  Assistant Producer: Maan Al-Yasiri  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett  Music: Miguel D’Oliveira  Show notes compiled by Shaloma Ellis  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows     A Mindhouse Production exclusively for Spotify  www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ready? Hello, Louis Theroux here. Welcome to my podcast, The Louis Theroux Podcast. Welcome to my podcast, The Louis Theroux Podcast. Today I'm interviewing the amazing singer-songwriter, the garage legend, who's now really an all-round soul man and DJ. DJ? Did I say DJ? I like that better. He's a DJ. Craig David. You will know Craig from his incredible multi-multi-million selling album, Born to Do It. Seems like yesterday because I'm an old fart, but actually it was about 20 years ago or more. I've seen Craig

live at least once. I don't think I mentioned it in the conversation, but I wanted to put that out there. He's an amazing performer and someone who embodies much of the best about what we can do musically in the UK in the sense of being slightly genre-defying, incorporating elements of acoustic guitar, soul balladry. I've been told that he slightly confused American audiences for not squarely fitting in a single musical box. So I love all of that. I love his voice. I love his unapologetic sort of lover man style of performing. And he's one of those people whose suave, I think that is Le Mojus in this case, whose suave exterior and immaculate styling belies a rather vulnerable interior, you know, and a sensitivity and almost insecurity that is underneath.

I'm also aware that he's someone who wears his heart on his sleeve. And so I knew that in talking to him, there'd be an opportunity to go quite deep. He doesn't hold back on expressing those things that have troubled him over the years. And just to say the episode contains some strong language and some sensitive and upsetting themes. We spoke remotely and in the wings, I think on his own Zoom connection was Craig's manager, Colin Lester, who's also been an important figure, a kind of father figure in Craig's life. Other than that, the usual set-up with me at home in slightly echoey surroundings. Apologies for that.

And producer Paul, anxious about the non-appearance of the guest at the very beginning and a few technical problems. Mainly at my end. it was nice catching up with you at the mobile awards it was lou it was really good it's a we couldn't have had a longer chat craig are you coming on where is he there he is hi everyone nice haircut Thanks, my man. I'm recording. I'm getting some echo. Echo, echo, echo.

Are you hearing that, Paul? No. Why am I hearing that? There we go. One, two, one, two. Okay, I think it's all right now. Everyone's jumped off now. You studied electronics at university.

Yeah. NVQ level two in in uh in electronics I did the first year and then the second year dropped out to be honest City College was around the corner from where I lived in Southampton in Southampton yeah and it was the closest to kind of being remotely anything to do with music in my head and I only bring it up because actually it means that plugging this stuff in and I feel like it's right in your wheelhouse. We couldn't have hired a better person to be on top of the technical aspects of what we're doing. Do you know what? It's so, it's so my world. Thank you for doing this Craig. It's a privilege to talk to you.

I've followed your career for years, from way back, you know, your amazing first album, Born To Do It, and then recently been digging into what you've been up to you've got a book out you've got an album out and you've been killing it with these dj sets ts5 is the brand i believe which stands for tower suites 5 and i will shut up in a minute but just to say like there's an extraordinary set you did as part of an ibiza kiss that's how it's branded it's on YouTube and if we do show notes we should put a link in the show notes because the flow that you have basically singing rapping DJing all at the same time and on top of that having an amazingly good time do you know what it was the missing piece of the puzzle when everything kind of went from zero to 100 with

all the music and the born to do album and everything DJing and emceeing was really was what I was so passionate about and that kind of led up for four or five years before the album was released and I never got to actually really incorporate that into my shows I was doing acoustic performances and band shows and DJing them was with vinyl so it was a kind of a very slower way of playing songs I mean to put that onto a lacquer or create an instrumental to actually play it out so it just wasn't kind of set up for it and then all of a sudden sort of like 10 years 15 years later all of a sudden you could actually do a DJ set pretty simply and actually be on the fly spontaneously putting songs together and I loved it I was like oh man I'm back to doing

what I used to do in my bedroom when I was like 15 you know I mean totally and actually you know what's striking when I take an overview of your career there's this precipitous rise this incredible rise to the highest levels of success early on then there's a I guess a diminuendo there's like a falling away which you're very candid about in interviews and in your writing and then there's a I guess a diminuendo there's like a falling away which you're very candid about in interviews and in your writing and then there's a kind of resurrection an extraordinary comeback which seems to be based on you without even meaning to like you regroup and discover this love for DJ sets when you're sort of serving out this sort of new life that you're leading in in Miami and it's almost like you get the eye of the tiger back by rediscovering that in some way. Yeah, it felt like a real full circle in terms of,

I guess how I even feel now, that when I was making music in my bedroom as a kid, there was no real reason to do it other than just to enjoy creating and just to maybe have the opportunity to play it out in one of the clubs where I was DJing. The process of creation was so wonderful to me. And I think that once I'd stepped foot into the music industry, and then it

becomes either a competition with the rest of the industry or a competition with yourself to better something, you're defined by numbers. And I think that when I actually ended up going back out to Miami, which really was sort of caught between a rock and a hard place on one side I did need to have some time to regroup get myself together at the same time there was the whole mockery and humiliation that was going through in the UK that was pushing me to go to a place where I could just find sanctuary but out of that came TS5 which was literally going back to DJing and hosting a party and I'm just having a good time here creating and there's no end result we're not doing this to create a brand we're not creating anything we're just doing it to live very much in the moment

and I think from that the part of me that was like I need to put it on CD because people were asking me for copies to play at home I was like well CDs are kind of unfortunately slowly dying but I can put on SoundCloud and then from SoundCloud sent SoundCloud to Colin Esther who's speaking to off camera I'm a manager and he then went on and showed it to different radio companies and the first one was Kiss FM who were really interested and they started to air the show live on their station then it went to Capital, Capital Extra so it was the rebirth by going back to doing the thing that I always used to do and I think that was the real lesson learned is that when I'm in that flow something beautiful comes from it. Well and long may it continue as I say

that set is really worth checking out it's amazingly polished and your ability to just rap, sing, DJ all at the same time is amazing. Now, you mentioned, if you like, the comeback and then you made quick reference to the setback. I wonder if you're comfortable digging into that for a moment. It's become obviously something you've talked about in different ways over the years. Partly, I think, in the background is the sense of having done an incredibly successful debut album that sold in excess of seven million records and then perhaps inevitably or at least not surprisingly like subsequent albums did well but maybe didn't reach that level meanwhile a high-profile comedian is doing it on his show well it's both selector is doing a kind of um well how would you even characterize it's a

comedy show based on outlandishly caricatured celebrities and one of them is is you it's funny because it always for so many years it'd been like the elephant in the room to mention the name both selector to mention avid marion or lee francis lee francis is a real name he did the show i guess in character as avid marion and then now as Keith Lemon. So the name keeps changing. So very much like a chameleon in terms of who his identity is. But when it came to the show, the likeness of it was, I guess, like a spitting image and caricatures of different people. He did Mel B, Michael Jackson, Trisha Goddard, David Beckham, David Beckham, Lorraine Kelly. And ludicrously malformed latex heads that you would never mistake for being

obviously a real person and sometimes inappropriately or incongruous accents You were given a kind of a northern accent even though you're from Southampton and you had like a colostomy bag and a kestrel or a falcon on your arm And again it was so wild in its caricature,

but yet the title being Bo Selector, which was taken from my breakout song with the Artful Dodger, Rewind. One of the lines in it, which was really poignant and culturally relevant as to what was going on at the time, when the crowd would hear the selector, which goes back to Jamaican sound systems, selecting a record, playing certain songs, the crowd would shout out,

bow, bow, bow, bow, bow. It would be like kind of a recognition for the song that you've played. And Rewind and what it represented was culturally an important moment for UK Black British music because there hadn't been a breakout record like that that I can really remember for a long time organically

that had grown through pirate radio stations that wasn't being played on commercial radio. Yeah, it was a number one record, right? It went to number two in the charts and it changed the landscape of music beyond Garage. I think it opened up the ability for anyone in any part of the UK to feel that they could actually make music and for it to have an impact because coming from Southampton it was always deemed that you had

to be from London and all of a sudden there was this mixed race kid from Southampton who was had a song that was transcending all of that so there was the ridicule of that line which was where it started for me that the show was called Bo Sletta and at first I was very much like sort of at arm's length like you know what you're having a pop-up load of different people here but at the same time innately inside of me it felt like and this is where it leans all the way back to my school days to the same type of ridicule and humiliation and bullying that would go on in the school playground which is something that I had experienced so he pushed the buttons on that

not only for me and I know I'd spoken in interviews before about it that the racist tone that he had for the black characters in it which was racist it is what it is and for me it's not even an emotional thing now there was a time when I was really emotional and I went through depression because of that and I talk about that candidly in the book as well that even with David Beckham it was pointing out the fact that he was trying to find his voice at the time and there was ridicule about the way his voice sounded and once again that was where Lee Francis would ridicule that would show highlight the point at which was the person's weakness it felt like it was if I can bring these people down in whatever way I possibly can in what wild way I can then it's a job well done in his eyes and I can never quite

understand that well he's trying to be funny but I don't think he goes to work thinking like I wonder who I can upset today but a lot of humor not all humor but a lot of humor has an element of cruelty to it certainly pranks do and satirical comedy does and some people reacted to being spoofed on bow selector by saying it's funny and it's fine and then others you weren't the only one said like this isn't okay right by the way i should mention i'm being i know lee francis a tiny bit can I show you what he's done for me I don't think this has gone on TV yet can you see that what is this is this uh so I bumped into him at a party he said yeah have a look at this and he just showed me it was on his phone that's me from what from a new show or from an upcoming show I believe did you know I don't know what I mean until I've

walked in your shoes I'm not saying it's the same because the race element's removed and that's massive so but I'm curious to see how it feels like if it became the phrase on everyone's lips but in your case it was a catch phrase wasn't it Craig David I can't even do it people were singing your name at you is that right what happened is it went from being something that was one-to-one in my opinion that it was bullying and he was bullying all of the different people in a variety of different ways and I just happened to be at the brunt of it because of the show being called Bo Selector but rather than calling it out at that time I tried to lean in by taking my PR team's recommendation of lean in.

You know, it's like, have fun with it. Get on board. Yeah, it'll go away. You actually appeared on his show, didn't you? Well, he came to the Royal Albert Hall where I performed the song Rewind. And I invited him to come, which is why there's a picture of me with my arm around him smiling. But when I look at the picture, I want to cry. And I felt that when I was actually

in the picture really well the performance is on YouTube I watched it like the song starts it's shot from behind so you see someone you think is Craig David going out and it's actually Lee Francis wearing the full mask I was imagining myself as a fan of Craig David to see Lee Francis it would have been I thought a confusing and for some of them, maybe even a slight offensive experience. Yeah, do you know what? The whole thing, for me at the time, I felt there was racist undertones to that show. Should never have put on a rubber latex mask.

The fact that he put on a black latex mask for the black characters instantly leaned it way over the bar. Try and do that today, which is quite funny, because the fact that you're showing me that there's the chance of you being caricatured in a new show, it's really devastating to me, Louis, because when someone gets the opportunity to say, listen, which he did do to a certain degree, he did a formal apology.

In 2020, he went online and released a video. It was post-Ge floyd and black lives matter and he was he was in tears saying it was really offensive and wrong and i'm sorry for doing these cross-racial offensive impersonations yeah he was up against the ropes there was a a movement happening in america with black lives matter Matter, George Floyd had just been killed. The timing for me was no coincidence. The eyes were on you. And in that part, you realized that you had to do something. So therefore the tears came down and he apologized. Now, my thing is that at that point, you've taken accountability. If you've really taken accountability, you move on. Channel 4 takes that show off air. They haven't even got it in their archives that's

right they took it off all four so the fact why i'm saying what pains me is that at this point when you've publicly apologized said that now you're accountable for him to show that he's about to do another show with a caricature of you for me man knowing how you are you can ride it out and you'll deal with it as you are but it's just so wrong that that should be anywhere near you again and the fact that my man's still doing it's a nonsense i don't know anything about whether this is the same title or he just showed it to me so we'll see what it is i don't want to see any caricature of you at all my man unless it's going to be saying beautiful things and it looks exactly like you and you doing it. It's nonsense. Complete nonsense.

So you went to Miami and you rebuilt yourself metaphorically, but also physically. And I remember that there was a moment, this would have been, I suppose, 10 years ago or so. And someone said, have you seen Craig David lately? I'm like, why? Oh my God, he is hench. You took to the body beautiful lifestyle with abandon do you know what going back to my childhood I was just a normal kid who could run as fast as anybody else just carrying a little bit extra weight on me but at school again like you're told you're fat you're overweight like you're the shoulder to cry on for the girl that you might have

been interested in but she wants the captain of the school football team with the six-pack so you're already getting informed with this information of that. She aesthetically, if you look that way and you perform well, then all of a sudden that's going to be something that's accepted and liked. So when you take that on board

and then going into the music business, in my mind, I was like, I need to jump on the treadmill and do a whole bunch of crazy fad diets to try and bring the weight down. When you see it from a health point of view, it's creating anxiety and such a fear in people to be like, I've got to be at this perfect definition of what being healthy is. You've always liked chocolate, so maybe you're quite a chocolate fanatic, is what I'm hearing. I love chocolate because I love Willy

Wonka the chocolate factory is it more about the movie than it is about chocolate you just love Charlie and the chocolate factory well I love sweetness I've got a very very sweet taste so it doesn't have to be chocolate could be Haribo definitely more chocolate than it is Haribo if I'm being honest it went from selling chocolates at school there's a notorious B.I.G. line in his one it's like never get high on your own supply mine was like, never eat your own supply because it was a problem. The profit margins would start to go down when you start to indulge in your own chocolates at mid-break. Because you were a chocolate dealer. You were dealing chocolate at your school.

Yeah, the guy who gave you the option of, well, wait till the break. You've got an hour and a half. Or I've got one here for three times the price. I mean, it's options. You know what I mean? We've got to make it move here the price i mean it's it's options we don't know maybe we've got to make it move here business and the crunchies and boost bars would go down well my man i'm telling you a good business back then boost i heard a thing saying you love boost i was trying to remember what a boost tastes like it's like a sleeve of chocolate with a kind of chewy

toffee center is it yeah some biscuit biscuit in there too my man they still sell the boost you know you might have to grab yourself a little boost after this just to bring it home i can't have too much chocolate in the house i'm that bad i mean i can have it but it won't stay there very long because i'll eat it i've even stolen is a strong word but i've definitely purloined chocolate that belongs to my children you know like easter and i've been like i'll dip into their bag and they're like what happened to my chocolate dad i'm like um i might have eaten it but i will replace it kind of you know it's funny it brings me that reminds me of my grandma I was in my dad's mom's house and she had a brand new box of quality street that was given to her over the course of the day I don't know she was saving it till after dinner but I was like

I need to trouble one of those and she said oh you can have one one Craig I was like okay cool so I've got a little triangle one out, which was quite a nice one. The triangle and the purple ones were great. That sort of turned into two, turned into three, turned into four. And I kept just putting the wrappers at the bottom. We've all done that. Until it got to the point where we had a bit of a problem here, Houston, where there was only like four chocolates left of a whole Quality Street

and the rest were wrappers. When that hand went in after dinner for her to have one of those chocolates, woo! Oh, yes, we learned very quickly about eating your grandma's chocolates. So, yeah, I understand about when you get that fix. It's a bit like having a drink. You think it's easier to not have any

than it is to just have one. Because you have one, you're like, that was nice. I think I'll have another of those. And so it begins. But we were talking about you in Miami and you beginning by getting into shape and then becoming obsessive about it and it tipping over into something actually less healthy would you say yeah absolutely I've just taken it to its extremes my star sign is Taurus mine too by the way oh wow so you may find some of the same same with

the chocolate home comforts like to hunker down and also you're very passionate and a perfectionist so therefore whichever way it goes you'll take it to its its limit and therefore when it came to working out and trying to get my body in shape, which goes back to that captain of the school football team in six pack. I took it to its extreme, down to 4.5% body fat. Is that good? 4.5%? I wouldn't be able to tell you what the healthy parameters for that are. Far from good. If you wanted to see, visibly see some abs, you'd be in the single digits, anywhere under 10. Over that is a normal, healthy human being. What about under 4.5? What happens then? When you start to get under 4%,

there's a good chance that your organs will start to shut down on you. You'll have the abs, but they'll be putting a little dash between the ages of when you were born and when you passed away. You'll be dead, but you'll look amazing. You'll be the best looking guy in a cemetery.

Do you know what I'm saying? I was so... You were up for for that I tried to rein it in my awakening was I was in New York for Good Morning America I was about to promote my single I Know You and my back had just been spasming I'd had that when I'd left the UK just a little spasm nothing crazy I thought a massage won't sort out but I remember walking out onto stage it was a rushed morning I had a funny funny thing going on in my back that day that was different than any time before it was sparking a little and I remember stepping up onto stage as the camera went red and they're like you're about to go live now to the whole of America and bang the back went

into this spasm that I have never felt before. It was different, Louis. And I had to grip my teeth and just smile and sing down that camera like it was my life depended on it. Somehow the adrenaline rush got me through that performance. Every time I moved, it was like having, I guess the closest thing, and I don't do this regularly, but put your finger into 240 volts of electricity, that feeling, but every time it moved. I've done that's not recommended how are you okay oh fine yeah how's your back now by the way do you know what it's so much better from that moment

that was 2018 and i probably started to get relief 2021 22 and it's not relief really i have a degeneration in the l5 S1, which is quite common in most people. That's the lowest vertebra in the back that takes all of your pounding of your body weight throughout your whole of your life. Some people can have it where it's really, really degenerated, but it doesn't actually impinge the nerve. In my case, there's hardly anything there. So it's just bone on bone but the thing is it's something that takes time I can't have any more injections I can't have any more physiotherapy sessions there was nothing that was going to get me out of that darkness so when I got to that point where every

movement I was thinking about it before I made the move because it was about to do that 240 volts in my back I was just like you what? I'd rather not be here if I have to deal with this for the rest of my life. Not be here. That is heavy. What you actually were thinking, this can't go on. Something has to change or I will have to. I use the words dip out.

I would rather dip out than continue this. And I was really grateful. I mean, you spoke to Colin, my manager, just before, but his his love and care and grace throughout that period was so important that I could share and offload what I was feeling to him you moved in with Colin for a while am I right with Colin and his family he offered me a place at his home in London and in America to stay I was moving back to the UK in and around that time it was a dark spiralling time from the

physical pain. And also, what's it going to be like when I come back to the UK? I left the UK, as we've spoken about earlier. In 2010, right? And you were away for about six years? Yeah. And the UK's home and my family's here. And that offloading and having that conversation with Colin was huge for me because it's what I'm always advocating for people is to share their story, share the way they're feeling with someone. Because my thing was that it doubles down on yourself when you feel like you're the only person who's going through this. No one has the answer. It gets very dark. You then start having dark thoughts. And thankfully, me having that moment was a real pivotal moment I never got to the point where I was thinking how will I do this how will I dip out thankfully one thing that jumped out in your

story was that initially when you came back to the UK you were living at the Sofitel Hotel at Heathrow Airport Terminal 5 for two years yeah that was stay way over necessary when I read that I thought putting myself in your shoes I would have found that debilitating I think I'm projecting because obviously your experience is different but I'm someone who sort of needs to cook and have the routine of kind of looking after myself as a way of staying grounded whereas I find the experience of being in a hotel oddly alienating you know especially one that looks out on a hotel car park, which you talk about as being quite comforting. I think you talk about the experience of staying there as being comforting.

Yeah, the funny thing is that when I'd gone from Southampton in my small little bedroom in the council flat that I lived, I loved the comfort of being in a small room. I felt protected and cared for. I guess that kind of goes even further to why people huddle up into the fetal position you're close and you're comfortable and you're cared for when I'd moved up to London I didn't move straight into a house I was staying at a hotel I was staying at the landmark hotel when you first became successful right you moved out of your mum's place and yeah were in a hotel. So it felt like a return to that in a way.

Again, it was like being in a room and there was room service and I could get my laundry done. And I felt like there was other people around me. It felt like I was really in a much more luxurious block of flats. I was like things around me. I'm not isolated. That then led to me having my own home. When I went to Miami very similar kind of thing again to be honest because I was had a flat or a condominium they call it out there in the Mondrian Hotel which was functioning as a hotel but you could buy apartments you could rent

them out if you wanted to so it was a very similar thing so then when I went back home where was home I didn't have a house in the UK anymore. I wasn't really going to be going back down to Southampton where my mum's home was. So I was in this sort of interim period where there was this hotel, Sofitel, T5. It was the direct flight into T5, direct flight out of T5 to Miami when I was in that transition period. One month became two, two months became three. Next thing I'd go back to Miami, come back over, next thing become four or five. My room was tiny. It wasn't some crazy suite that was overlooking the whole, I mean, it was a one bedroom.

It wasn't even one, it was a studio. Small, tight, felt contained, had my little speakers in there making songs. It just made me feel like I was back in my bedroom in Southampton and I felt comfortable and cared for. The car park outside was the same as the car park looking out of my bedroom window when I was in Southampton so there was all these kind of references to that until and this was really lovely why I've got a real soul mate in Colin because outside of just being a manager he can talk straight to me as a friend as a best friend and say to me listen we've got to get you out of this place man this is madness like you've been here for too long Colin said that to you so you could see that maybe it was

comfortable but it wasn't bringing you out of your shell what was your social life like there it had completely whittled away I was just doing work related things so I'd be in the hotel recording in the hotel then I'd go to the studio maybe come back then I'd go to do a radio interview come back so there was nothing in between I hadn't really integrated back into society I didn't have a car I wasn't really didn't have like loads of friends but that was my thing I could just work through it just do the work make the songs so by the time everything started to shift and there was this viral moment with the song called 16 but it was filming in over where

where are you now the skrillex justin bieber diplo instrumental one extra i walked in big nasties there showing mad love right we should just zoom out for a second this was the springboard for your major re-emergence 2015 september 2015 you went on radio one Extra, Corrupt FM. I think Stormzy's there as well, is he? Stormzy was there. This was like right on the start of his career. There was Sherlock Hammer, the Corrupt FM boys, Big Nasty. Big Nasty's there visibly just loving every second of it. Oh, man.

And he said to you that you were an important artist for him, I think. Yeah, he wore his heart on his sleeve. I mean, it told me how much he loved the first album this freestyle then went viral and Justin Bieber was tweeting and Scooter Braun and Diplo and it just became a moment and then I was in the studio with Big Nasty to record which we didn't know at the time was going to end up being when the bass line drops and he said something that was very poignant to me when he looked down and he saw one of the Born to Do It plaques on the floor that I put there because I don't want to put this all up all over the wall. I don't want this to feel like you're coming into this shrine

of accolades and awards, and not that I'm not really proud of them, but it can just stay on the floor over there in the corner for now because what we came to do today is to write something brand new. Let's not harp about the past. This was your flat in London you're talking about this was in this this was actually in my studio and when he saw it he said Craig you picked that plaque up and you put that on the wall now and I said bro like it's calm man it's like it's all right it's in the corner it's fine he goes no no no it's not calm

it's not cool about being in the corner he's like do you know? What that album what that did for me as a young kid growing up in the UK? Let alone every other person who has this album and how it affected them in the UK and you've got it dash in the corner Like it's some sort of joke He said you picked that up and you put that up there and recognize what impact that had Because if it wasn't for you and it wasn't for this this music then I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing half the people are doing what they're doing wouldn't have been breaking through everyone you saw in one extra they've all listened to that album it all gave them the ability to be seen and to recognize that they could do what they want to do and I was

like whoa I mean really schooled me and I was like thank you I'll get out there tomorrow which I did put up on the wall we recorded when the bass line drops and next thing that was a the first top 10 hit for Big Nasty and what more made me happy is to see him on Jonathan Ross with me on a major TV show and now he has his own show on on Channel 4 amazing I mean come on what a time yeah I wonder why you needed to hear that from him was there something in you that felt like you didn't deserve it yet? Or what do you think was going on with you? Yeah, because there was a lot of imposter syndrome. I'd been going through this feeling that even when I was standing outside of Wembley Arena

as a 17, 18-year-old kid, having only a few months before, just been walking up the high street in Southampton, living at home in the same bedroom. And then all of a sudden it's sort of like it's jumped to here we are, three nights sold out. And I'm looking up and I'm like, wow. And then when I jumped on stage, I was still like, is someone going to pull the rug

underneath my feet at some point? Did I fluke this whole thing? Are they here to see someone else? because it can't be for me I remember how hard and difficult it was to get the music seen and be heard when you're working the community centers and trying to get a little 15 minute DJ set down in Southampton all of a sudden like between seven to ten thousand people a night at Wembley Arena wow it started the whole thing of someone's gonna pull the rug this must be for someone else first number one this is great but when is this whole thing gonna come down and that ran for years part of me was always feeling like did I really do this and when I saw Big Narty that day that's funny we're talking 2015 how many years later right for him to say

that to me to bring me back to say no no no no no this is you the penny just dropped in a way that was like I did create all these songs and I'm grateful for every single part of this and for the first time I'm really realizing that I can incorporate and bring back that fragmented part of me which was keep it humble. You don't talk about your successes because something will bring you down. And this all does double down into a way culturally I've been raised that if you get a bit too high above your station, you'll be pulled back down. So you kind of you're just trying to culture you talking about like Southampton or not. It's a very British culture. Get a little too big for your boots.

We do mean we're bringing you back down a peg i think in a way some of the both selector stuff comes from that a bit and so seeing oh here's a guy he's really good looking talented very smooth and there's a kind of british trait of wanting to puncture that instead of seeing it for what it is which is some self-pride professionalism talent it was when you're having success but yet then you're being brought down to earth in the way that you were just explaining then it kind of brought it back full circle I was like well okay you rear your head up someone's going to bring you back down and that's really why we need to talk about it and I need to be

able to speak my truth openly and candidly so it's there for the record to not talk on it would allow the same thing to happen all over again this is like my third chance at speak your truth should have spoken my truth when I was at school to the bully should have spoken my truth over Bo Slector at the time now I'm getting a chance to speak when it's not from an emotional place it's from a healed You know, I can really relate to that sense of someone telling you that they value what they do and it feeling important because I'm someone who I think sort of needed someone to believe in me first before I believe in myself, if that doesn't sound weird. Like, if I can make it more concrete, like I never sort of grew up thinking, oh, I'm really good at

making documentaries, or I think I could be quite funny and insightful presenting shows on TV. I never had that dream for myself. But it was something that over the years, other people saw in me and enabled me to do. And here I am, whatever, 25 years later, having had a career. And it's sort of extraordinary. And if I hear you correctly, part of what you heard from Big Nasty was this sort of sense of, no, we see you as someone special. However you see yourself, you've done way more than you realize for legions of people around the UK, people who are now in the music industry or aspiring to be in it. And then that feels more real. And it's a shame in a way that we may need that. And then that feels more real.

And it's a shame in a way that we may need that. But I think I sometimes think about how I couldn't have achieved anything of what I've done if I hadn't had those people sort of encouraging me and saying you can do this. Does that make sense? Absolutely. I fully relate with that. I can get the cheer from a crowd. And it's incredible, that feeling. And I'm in awe of how that experience is but then you also need someone that will be real with you like I have with Colin which I come

back to our relationship super real you still want life to become magical and you ultimately want to be able to own it to know that you don't necessarily need an external force to tell you if you're doing something right or wrong I think that that gets to a point where I've realized now I know when I'm in my truth I know when I'm in my integrity because my heart drops I'm calm I'm speaking clearly and it's not emotional it's not charged it's just why are we here today Louis what we're achieving through this because I'm learning as much about you than as I am about me because I find like these kind of podcasts and zoom calls are amazing because they can just be people spouting information back to each other or there can be a moment where you get to meet someone and you say wow oh you're a taurean too okay cool I know that you like to steal the chocolates from from your kids

before they can get like definitely do do that I love that I was really excited that we were going to have this conversation because I've seen how articulate and how graceful you are in holding space to allow people to do the same because you're giving people a platform. It's wicked. Thank you. You're listening to The Louis Theroux Podcast. Hi, I'm Louis Theroux, and you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast.

And now, back to my conversation with Craig David. I want to circle back and talk about you coming up in Southampton. I've got questions about your dad, who I know is a musician, but there's something I want to just touch on before we move on. And you must feel free, if it's not a comfortable subject, because I've never seen you talk about it, then we don't need to touch it. But one of the things I read about in preparing for the interview

was that you'd had quite a serious brush with a stalker. Yeah, that was something that I wish upon no one. For me, and this is again something I talk about in the book quite clearly, is something that I didn't have. I had a lack of boundaries. And knowing where that boundary is, if you haven't got some sort of demarcation between two houses, and someone comes in and they're having a house party in your back garden because there's no fence there and you're kind of a little bit kind of like what the hell's going on here where it's like well how was anyone supposed to know where your

gardens stopped and where my one finished so good fences make good neighbors is the relevant poetic quote from robert frost robert frost understood it so well and when you knock on that door to say would you like to come in and enjoy this garden party we're having all of a sudden you have a really nice kind of rapport between the two of you and it's very amicable. My boundaries were a bit skewed in terms of giving so much love out on stage and performing and then feeling that especially with social media as well because you have the ability to be able to say congratulations or well done you have a much closer relationship now through social media with your audience now I didn't know that that could then allow someone in their mind

to think that that actually is a lot closer it's almost like you've given your phone number out or you've given like your details so unfortunately when it came to the stalking in her mind it was very much that she thought that there was something for her that was like she thought she was your girlfriend I think that's the thing at first it was like you know what arm's length arm's length arm's length and crane boundaries okay I it, but that's not the case. I don't know you. But then when you turn up at my house or you're sending letters to my parents telling them that that's the case, that was where I had to, for the first time in my life,

I had to pick up the phone and call the police. Again, it was like, I don't do that. Do you know what I mean? I can deal with this. You called the police and it became a legal case. And did she get a sentence off it? The injunction was put in place. Were you ever physically unsafe as far as you're aware? Or how did it affect you mentally?

Do you know what? It's the mental part that was the hardest part of all of it. Because you could easily say there is no physical problem here. Like she's not going to hurt you in any way. But mentally, because I couldn't get a read on where this information was coming from, why she was acting this way, why even with the police being involved, was still not quite understanding. That part then did become more of an issue for me

because it was something that there was no read on it. It was like, I don't know what the next thing is. And we've seen how it can then escalate to a much worse place. How long did it last? The actual stalk gone for years seriously in different ways it gone on for years and i tried to be like give the benefit of doubt give the benefit of doubt give the benefit of doubt you'll get the message you'll get the message this is nothing this is not real like to the point now you're not getting any response then you'd find out where i am to go to those lengths to find out where i was it wasn't that easy to be honest and to also find my parents address that for me when

my parents were involved I was like no no no it's a real catch-22 as well because you can engage but then in some way you're feeding the energy by paying attention to it or you can ignore it but that also doesn't feel satisfactory because taking no action at all doesn't feel like a solution either right anyway when it gets to a point at which you feel like you're being violated or it's crossed those boundaries and for me like i said it was a great example of learning where my boundaries were and how i had a lack of boundaries i mean i the boundaries point, but does it sound like you did anything in terms of failing to police your boundaries in this case?

But in terms of actually picking up the phone and calling the police, that's the part. It was like a year too late for me. That's what I'm saying. It's like, I tried to give the benefit of the doubt as being the open heart that I have of like, you know what? I know you're just a bit overzealous. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You've overstepped it. And I'm so grateful and thankful that I did because the police officers were amazing.

Like the detective who came over and we sat down, he said, listen, we've got you. We're going to sort this out for you. But when he started to write and he was taking the notes and he read it back to me, I said, man, you need to be able to write novels, my man. The way that you've written this is so articulate what do you get english is that what i gotta be english so be english that's a man you you've excelled yourself it was just like we were talking about nudging people to fulfill their talent he might have

needed to hear that from you maybe he's writing his novel at the moment i think he should found the next tom clunchy he's a lovely guy he's a really really beautiful man he shout out he might be listening so if you're out i hope he is man let's go back and talk about you growing up and also in passing can we reflect on the fact that like big nasty for me that album born to do it was a milestone and i remember seeing it at the time and thinking wow like i'm quite a supporter of of British music and the idea of us having homegrown talent at the highest level. And when you appeared on the scene, what struck me was, wow, there's this guy who's fused elements of UK garage and R&B. He's got an exquisite voice. You had Fraser T. Smith playing his acoustic guitar trills and the whole look and feeling of the sound and just everything about the videos felt fully formed and you were what 19 years old yeah it was an extraordinary

musical debut and kind of moment in homegrown pop culture but i'm curious to know like when you were coming up what you were listening to and what was feeding into your sort of musical worldview? I've got a really sort of lovely upbringing of cross-reference of artists from, wow, Stevie Wonder and Donny Osmond. Really? Donny Osmond? I wasn't expecting to hear that name. Any track in particular? Yeah, Puppy Love. Remember Puppy Love? Yeah, and they called it... Puppy Love. Big tune.

Yeah, big tune. Is it a big a big tune i don't know i'm on the fence with that one that seems a little bit before your time though was that your mum's album your mum's music yeah my mum was a huge huge fan of the osmonds she'd tell me about how there was like stampedes outside their hotels and she painted them out like they were a version of the beatles at some point in their stardom and like huge but i like they were a version of the Beatles at some point in their stardom and like huge but I thought you were going to say like Terence Trent Darby or Usher I know those were both big for you yeah absolutely I mean so you've got that on one side then there was my dad who was playing more reggae lovers rock music from Beres Hammond Sanchez he was in a reggae

group called the Ebony Rockers. Ebony Rockers. Who you can listen to on YouTube. It's brilliant kind of roots reggae, you know, of the sort of 70s, 80s vintage. Yeah. You know what's funny? Because I remember going through the record collection, there was a big box of records,

and I find this Ebony Rockers vinyl with a picture of the band on there, and I see my dad on there, and I'd be like, wow, so proud. What was his instrument? His bass guitar. Really? So I guess that's where I've got this real affinity for making sure the bass line is right.

The low end, got to look after the low end. Oh, yeah, you need the low end. All day. And everything he spoke about, you know. I mean, recently they put a Muriel and Ogle Road in Southampton. Was it a Southampton group then? Southampton group to commemorate what they were speaking about the social injustice and the racism that they were going through that wind rush

era of coming over and what they had to face and then going on protests with various marginalized groups to fight for their voice to be heard and at the time I was so young I didn't really know what the songs were about I just liked the. I loved the way that my dad played the bass. But then later in years down the line, when I got to understand what he was talking about, and then they got this mural right in the high street, I was so proud of him. Was he a full-time musician?

So, I mean, the point at which I kind of listened to his music, I think the band had already maybe broken up at that point, but it was full-time for a moment. The dad I know was a carpenter that would have his son come with him. So his music was sort of behind him by the time you were on the scene? Yeah. He was showing me how to make speaker boxes together. I read about that.

Did I read that he's from Grenada originally? Yeah, that's correct. Which is a tiny South Caribbean island. Do you know the population? It's not that many. I looked it up. It's about 125,000, I think. Wow. Which is about half of the population of Southampton. And a lot of great music comes from there. He would have come over, what, looking for a better life in the UK kind

of thing? Yeah, he came over as a kid with his mum. Firstly, he tells me he's always very proud of the opportunity that he was given to be in this country he's very vocal about that that he had an opportunity to come over in that windrush on that boat with his mother and actually be given asylum here to be able to live their life to be given a UK passport and I love that but then he also said that he had to go through a lot of racism and social injustice that was going on at the time and he used music music to voice that. That's what made me really proud that he was able to be seen all these years later in Southampton. Yeah, he's being honoured, and that counts for a lot.

It's amazing. Your mum is white. Did I read that she's Jewish? Yeah, she's Jewish. My mother's mother is a Reforms Jew with an Orthodox husband, so down the lineage of my mother's side, she's Jewish. So do you think of yourself as Jewish? Deeply and daily in my heart, the Jewish tradition and the way in which the community that I'm now in is beautiful because it kind of reinforces the wonderful spirit of Judaism

that runs through me. But I would say that I'm very open to pulling in different religions and philosophies to bring them all to the centre. I see the essence of everything, and I do love the way in which I've been able to be raised in that sense. On my grandmother's side, she'd be talking about the Holocaust and what impact it was for her coming over,

and I deeply felt that pain. My dad would talk about black slavery, and I could feel that deeply inside of me. And then for me to be a mixed-r race kid growing up in the UK with that lineage, it makes me smile that I can own that and I can have empathy and walk and speak on these things, not from an abstract way. I can feel it. I have family members who were in concentration camps. I have family members who were slaves. Yeah.

When I read that you were Jewish, I was like, of course, Craig, David, like Larry David. David could be a Jewish name, but then actually David's your dad's name. Your mum's name is Loftus. Yeah. That actually goes through, I don't know if you remember the Acherist watches when they used to say at the first stroke of the time sponsored by Acherist will be when you used to call up to find out the time so Loftus's were known through the watch company my grandfather had a chemist and down in gold is green so that when we speak there's deep conversations that I had that now it's time to use this voice not just through the songs and and the words you say in a song because I feel that's a form of healing big time but then to also sit down with you and and

to have this conversation with you is really important because otherwise it's too much on the surface and I need to deep dive and allow this voice to come out which a couple years back I don't think I would have been ready to have these kind of conversations which touch upon all these different subjects so I'm just speaking my truth and if it brings people together then job well done hence the book hence these conversations. It's all the same thing. You know, time is streaming by. So before we wrap up,

I would like to talk to you about relationships a bit. And obviously, arguably your most famous song, Seven Days, is about a relationship that lasts, as far as we know from the lyrics, for seven days and about making love on consecutive days and then chilling on sunday if i have that correctly it was a seven year relationship that one louis was a seven year each day was a year it's like in the bible when they talk about days it's all metaphorical but i'm also aware from digging into your story that you haven't had many long-term relationships and

i have an instinct and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that you've enjoyed maybe over the years something of a playboy lifestyle. At least you've enjoyed the affection of people that you've met through the course of doing your work, a glamorous lifestyle that you lead. I guess the first question is to what extent that experience of, if it's correct, of fleeting relationships is satisfying. And to what extent were you leading a kind of glamorous playboy young free and single existence I mean to be honest Louis like when let's take it all the way back again you're the shoulder to cry on for the girl that I was interested in who wants to be with the captain the school football team but she'd have deep conversation with you pour her heart out to you but she didn't really want to necessarily be with me stuck in the friend zone I believe they call

that stuck in the friend zone but it seemed as if it didn't matter if you didn't have that deeper relationship and conversation as long as you looked a certain way that flipped and then it's on on its head when I started to have these songs that were starting to be successful around the world and there was a lot of interest and you looked amazing right and you were styled exquisitely I wouldn't say I looked amazing but I think the stylist did a good job on me put me in some nice threads yeah I've got to say that I was then now experiencing the other side of the coin I was like wow this is amazing this is like I'm now being seen that was really the the feeling having not been seen then having your heart broken. It only lasted for like, I think it was a couple of weeks,

but it was my heart. I really was like, wow, this girl I was so into. I felt it viscerally in my heart. Something had fragmented off. And then that became something that then became a defense mechanism for the rest of, well, very much up until this point. Keep arm's length. Don't let anyone make you feel that pain in your heart anymore and I feel sad that there were some wonderful women who really were trying to break through that and all I can say when I talk about

it I apologize for anyone trying to who's really trying to get through because they didn't know what it was really stemming from why was I slightly at arm's length why would i never like i've heard you talk about this before i guess to have a series of short-term or even just one-night-stand relationships in your 20s 30s i don't want to pathologize that for some people that's what a fun and fulfilling romantic life looks like right for others not so much i guess i'm curious if who's never really done that I always feel like well it's one thing to bring someone home and have a bit of fun but then how do you prevent that from becoming a relationship because you're having to sort of stop these things from becoming something and whether that feels awkward or the emotional

energy that that requires whether that was a drain on you you know what you absolutely nailed it in terms of the energy and there is no natural ending it's like once you have an energetic connection with somebody be even just a one-night stand as much as people would like to think that that's just it no no no all of the energy and things that are going on within someone, and you have an interaction with someone, unless you are both on a level, you're going to spill over into both. And that can then go into many different traumas. It could be like that rejection that happened years ago for me, which ends up being my defense mechanism.

For someone else, it could be that someone left them before, and now you're doing the same thing again. So how would you handle that did you ghost the women or did you sort of say look that was fun hope to see you around sometime you know what I mean like how would you basically keep the barriers up do you know what it was the other way around the way I was setting up things was like look the way we're talking right now I'd love to meet up it's. I'm not really ready to commit. That would be the mechanism in effect.

So you made the terms clear from the outset. But that's all nonsense too. And I learned that as well. Because you can say as much as you want, you can say whatever you want to say. You say, we're just having fun. I'm exploring options right now. And if that's reciprocated,

then you feel like there's some sort of an agreement. It's not. It's not, is it? No. That's just empty words and I realized that me not having healed my own issues was never really having me in a position to be open to someone else so therefore I realized that I had to pull back from all of this and this has been like the last couple of years really for me what you stopped having any kinds of romantic

and sexual encounters bring the whole thing back which does mean not outwardly going on dates. The sexual interactions is going to have to just stop now. You're going to have to just cut that off. Have you been in a celibate phase? Is that what you're saying? For quite a while now. For how long? Wow, maybe a year or so.

Really? So for me, that now gives me the ability to be in a which is funny because as much as the call would say oh why the hell you don't say that you've got to be in the mix no no i've realized that the energetic exchange between two people is so powerful that unless the two of you are on such a level, like you don't need saving here, you don't need to heal me, I don't need to heal you, we're both meeting each other at a really good healthy place, that's the start of relationship and I talk about this kind of in the book about needing roots, if there's no roots to the plant then the plant can't grow and for me there was

a period of time where I was like cut flowers look beautiful and I had to I had to rein that back and say, listen, I need real relationship now. This is not about how you're looking, if you're looking beautiful, if you're looking, forget all the aesthetics for a moment. If we can't deep dive, if I can't have a conversation like we're having today, and at the same time laugh like crazy with you and see the beauty from within you, then we're just going to be doing the same game that we've been playing, I've been playing from day one. So I don't want that anymore. Does that mean do you look back at the last 20 years because it's taken you like the best part of 20 years to get here it sounds like

but does that mean you have regrets? When you look back at the string of sexual encounters or relationships characterise them however you like how do you feel about all of that? That's why I said I felt sad about the way that there were some relationships and I say some wasn't many relationships but there was there were some relationships that really I knew how deeply we're trying to break down that same defense mechanism that I had of I don't want to get too close because that feeling of when my heart got broken before is something I never want to experience again. And yet what I now know

to be true is that you can only really have real relationship and real love if you're willing to have your heart open as expansively as you did the first time. If you're open enough for it to be broken, that's where you're going to have an opportunity of having real relationship. But there is such a thing as having fun too, right? Yeah, there's having fun, but I've also realised that the having fun, which I'd experienced for many years, wasn't conducive to the feeling and the deep yelling that I had. I feel like, because we're on two sides of the fence here, I've had so few girlfriends, I'm not going to get too specific. I've never really done that thing of casual sex. I've just never had it in me. And I don't say that as a boast

and I don't say it as a sort of embarrassing admission. It's just, it is what it is. I sense that you're sort of on the other side of the spectrum. I really have a slightly different take on it, my man, now. It's like, it's fun until it starts to get, people's hearts start to really connect. That's when the fun starts to go out the window. As much as it seems like you can

have the fun I've now come to terms that what I'm looking for is to have a relationship that is fun have an amazing relationship that has amazing sex involved in it that has great deep conversation that you bring each other higher together we bring each other up we raise each other we're there for each other when things get hard but at the same time it is fun it is sexy it is all of the beautiful things that the fun part of dating would say only happens if you're doing this and you don't commit I'm now swinging to the your side of the pendulum of wanting to have a real relationship of being like nah I can't believe that Craig David who met a girl on Monday and was making love on Tuesday is now saying he might not be making love Tuesday Wednesday Thursday

Friday any day of the week that's quite a shock that's what I'm saying sometimes you gotta pull it back man reign it back reign it back 41 years old now man I've got like things are different do you have a special someone I don't at the moment other than Colin I've always got Colin's always with me he's he's always there for me it's a beautiful thing you and Colin have got right he's been your manager from day one he's like a father figure everyone needs a Colin you know I really do believe everyone I say that knowing that he's listening in Colin you can thank me for that later everyone does need a Colin in their life only for the simple fact that he's real our relationship has evolved so beautifully it's gone from very much giving me father parental advice

as a young kid in an industry I knew nothing about to us becoming best friends for us to peer to peer and being able to be where I am now and that kind of evolution is what real relationship is and I'm starting to see that that's the kind of relationship that needs to be across the board in all relationships. Yeah, it doesn't have to just working relationships. Across the board, the relationships have to have the same way. You can't have something wonky going over here

and then something great here. It needs to be level. And if that means reducing your circle of people, I'm all in. All in. And by the way, I think I fucked up the lyric. I said you were making love on Tuesday, but you took her for a drink on tuesday and you were making love on

wednesday yeah just keep it to the tuesday drink things calm i mean that's nice you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast. Hi, me again, Louis Theroux. Just to remind you, you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast. And now back to my conversation with Craig David. And you can't keep a good man down. Manager Colin Lester I know you had a hard out I really appreciate your time Craig here's Colin all right Colin

how are you doing I'm very well thank you so much for those kind words everyone needs a Colin it's a title for a book isn't it hey you know before that my book was going to be called once more we're feeling but i think i might have to change it yeah but who's colin's colin maybe colin doesn't have a colin that's right i haven't got a colin i've got a beautiful wife that's why i'm thrilled there we go that was your cue to say my colin is my beautiful wife but you got there there we are so i hope you enjoyed that. I definitely did. On its own, that extraordinary revelation that he lived at a hotel in quite a small room, at Terminal 5.

Not that the number of the terminal makes that big a difference. Actually, Terminal 5 is probably the nicest terminal. It's the newest one. Terminal 2, that would be really weird. Even Terminal 5, that's a bit odd to spend two years at a hotel there. Granted, he was flying back and forth. What I didn't clarify was whether when he was out of town, he kept the room. I assume he probably did, that he was not sort of checking in and checking out, that it was like, welcome back, Mr. David. Your room is as you left it, sir. We've left some mints on your pillow, and if you want to go upstairs and relax,

we'll be up shortly to do turndown. It's a five-star hotel, people, so don't imagine he's staying in, like, a tiny little econo-lodge. You know what I mean? Where the soap fragments are so small you could cut your hand on them. You know what I'm talking about. Like little butterpats you're trying to clean yourself with. I've stayed in those places. This isn't one of those places. I've been told that

Alan Partridge lived in the travel tavern, probably in Norwich, was it? That that was his thing when he was what, in his wilderness years. So the idea of living at a hotel, it does sort of bespeak a kind of sense of loss of identity, loss of direction. My hotel years lie sort of bespeak a kind of sense of loss of identity loss of direction my hotel years lie ahead of me looking forward to them life must be so simple right welcome back mr thoreau your room is as you left it sir just to clear up one thing the stalking case that we talked about i think we covered some of this but but basically in 2022, she was given a stalking protection order banning her from contacting Craig for five years. I want to be able to walk down the street without having to look over my shoulder, Craig's impact statement said. You know, one thing that didn't come up that I meant to say was, because he draws this comparison in his book, which I thought was perceptive,

was because he draws this comparison in his book, which I thought was perceptive, was saying having been made into a puppet, a latex puppet that was both him and not him, he imprisoned himself in a new incarnation, but this one sculpted from his own flesh. He makes that comparison. It's kind of amazing that in fleeing from one form of what he viewed as bullying or

misrepresentation, he ended up in another self-created puppet. And if you're curious to see Craig in his most sculpted, sculpted to the point of unhealth, then those images are available on the internet. You can have a look. Extraordinary level of chiselization. Also, I was conscious listening back to it that, look, I think I said I know Lee Francis. I'm in a kind of comedy adjacent space myself. I'm in favor of, I guess, broadly defined cheeky comedy. I absolutely endorse Craig's feelings. For me, I guess I don't know how I would feel about it if it happened to me, but I'm sort of hoping that I might find out. As I speak, I still don't know whether Lee's TV show in which there's a grotesque Louis Theroux latex puppet with a huge chin. And I'm sorry you couldn't see

that. I'm hoping we can link to that in some way. I'm not sure I have to get permission. So it's got huge ears, which is utterly bizarre because as you will know, my ears are petite little seashells. No, I've got big ears too, but I think the ears are even bigger, big flapping Dumbo-like things. But I don't know whether it's been picked up. I think it was a pilot, maybe for ITV or ITV2. And whether or not it will ever be on TV, I don't know. We're on tenterhooks. I mean, I think I said this as well, which is this feeling that in the UK, certainly in England, there's a sense that you don't want your stars to come with too much star attitude. And almost there's a level of

grooming, which is viewed, certainly in men, is viewed with a kind of suspicion. And I think to some extent, Craig came in for flack because he was almost seen as just a little bit too slick, right? Maybe people felt, some people felt he needed taking down a peg. It was striking that when I showed Craig the Lee Francis, Louis Theroux latex character, he was really troubled by it. And I think not on his own account, he was feeling compassionate towards me. And basically, Craig seems like a compassionate, I think he is a compassionate, thoughtful, and kind person. And a consummate professional, as if that needed saying, someone who now, 20 years on, has found his way back

to a kind of elder statesman status, just when British rap, grime, R&B is at the forefront of international flowering, right? So many amazing artists who are getting attention all over the world and that they look up to Craig. Craig is seen as a forerunner, someone who paved the way. And he's a great artist

and he's got a great voice. And I think I said that, so I don't need to keep banging on about it. What's your flavour? Tell me now, what's your flavour? What are the other ones? I'm walking away. I used to love that track. If you're feeling a little bit tearful, maybe underslept or going through a heartbreak,

that song is like a love dart to a tender place. From the troubles in my life I'm walking away Oh, to find a better day Okay, credits. This podcast was produced by Paul Kobrak and Mahn Al-Yazari. The production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer is Aaron Fellows. The music in this series is by Miguel de Oliveira.

If you enjoyed it, then feel free to re-rewind. The music in this series is by Miguel de Oliveira. If you enjoyed it, then feel free to re-rewind. There you go. It's a Mindhouse production exclusively for Spotify. You don't really have to rewind because it doesn't work like that anymore, does it? You just click. You just click.