The Louis Theroux Podcast - S1 EP4: Tan France on life in the US, the phenomenon of Queer Eye and dealing with racism

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

Fashion mogul and Queer Eye star Tan France beams in from Salt Lake City, Utah and tells Louis about his life and career, including growing up as a gay Muslim man in Doncaster, accidentally becoming part of a television phenomenon and being able to handle himself in a fight. Plus, Louis comes to terms with his ‘man in a shed’ energy. Warnings: Very strong language and discussions of sensitive themes Links: Queer Eye Netflix link (Season 1) https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80160037 Wayne’s World – Bohemian Rhapsody Bohemian Rhapsody Wayne's World HD When Karamo gets pulled over by the police – Queer Eye Season 1, Ep 3 ‘Dega Don’t’ https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80160037 Bravo TV https://www.bravotv.com/ Louis Theroux’s Weird Weekends https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00747cj/louis-therouxs-weird-weekends-series-1-3-porn Louis Theroux’s Take a Peak Cameo https://www.google.com/search?q=louis+theroux+take+a+peek&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiHwdOL7aT_AhWTTMAKHcn2AQ4Q_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1276&bih=591&dpr=1.5#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:5f25bb05,vid:-NOj4XUk1_Y Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80239931 Tan France: Beauty and the Bleach https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0016tzr/tan-france-beauty-and-the-bleach The Kumars at No. 42 The Kumars at No. 42 - Graham Norton, Davina McCall Dressing Funny with Pete Davidson Tan France Gives Pete Davidson a John Mulaney Makeover | Dressing Funny | Netflix is a Joke Credits:  Producer: Paul Kobrak  Producer: Millie Chu Assistant Producer: Maan Al-Yasiri  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett  Music: Miguel D’Oliveira  Show notes compiled by Shaloma Ellis  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows     A Mindhouse Production exclusively for Spotify  www.mindhouse.co.uk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, Louis Theroux here. How are you doing? Welcome to my Spotify podcast called The Louis Theroux Podcast. Today we'll be speaking to Tan France, a man who it's a great privilege to have on the show, being as he is an enormous star on the smash hit Netflix series Queer Eye. So we talk about that, also his upbringing in Doncaster, his rise to fame, the perils of being in the public eye as a gay Muslim man of Pakistani heritage. I should say by way of background, there's a few things that probably need explaining in advance, especially if you haven't seen Queer Eye, though most of you probably have. It's a show that features these five gay guys as they go around making over the

lives of random members of the public all over America. Each of the presenters specializes in a certain area of life. Tan does fashion, Bobby does design, Anthony does food and wine, and Karamo is in charge of culture. Oh, and Jonathan is the hair guy, or person. I think he's non-binary. And Jonathan is the hair guy or person. I think he's non-binary. So they advise the people that they meet on how to improve those aspects of their life. Does that make sense? Tan came to fame fairly late.

Well, he was 33. It's not that late. But he'd been a very successful fashion mogul with some businesses selling modest ladieswear and swimwear, modest ladies wear and swimwear, which not coincidentally, probably was very appealing for the Mormon lady looking for something fashionable, but also not too revealing. Mormons wear special underwear. Did you know that? Mormon men do. That's designed to inhibit them from indulging in the carnal appetites too freely. It's a bit like being an escapologist. You know, you wear things that are hard to get out of. So that's the other part that you need to know, is that he was in Salt Lake City when I spoke to him.

We spoke remotely. Tan lives there with his husband, Rob France, a former paediatric nurse who's now an illustrator. It turned out Tan was a friend of my cousin's, Justin Theroux. That's how he says Theroux. I know, it's crazy. So Justin's name gets tossed about. There's some good-natured ribbing of yours truly, which I tried to take on the chin. It was a little painful. That'll become clear as it goes on. And just to say the episode contains some strong language and some sensitive and upsetting themes.

All of that and much, much more coming up. So thank you for doing this, by the way. Of course. It's a real thrill to speak to you. I think everyone who's listened to this knows who you are, but I will nevertheless introduce you in a sort of presently way, as though I were a professional. You are a fashion expert and one of the fab five on the world-dominating Netflix show, Queer Eye, in which you go and spiritually and materially sort of advise and fix the lives of people who could need a

little help. Yes. What year did Queer Eye come onto Netflix? 2018. We shot it in 2017. It's amazing because that's so recent and yet it's so established in the cultural firmament. So just five years, just five years. Five years, yeah. How old were you when it all kicked off? I got the job at 33. Right out the gate, it was a hit, wasn't it? Yeah. That first season took off like a rocket. And by the way, in preparing for this interview, I noticed that you've just turned 40.

Happy birthday. Thank you so much. I turned 40 about a week ago. I've got a feeling we've got a long time and we can just chat, so I'm just going to tell you my feelings on it. Not that that was a question. When I turned 30, I was concerned, but it didn't bother me that much. Turning 40, I think felt really strange because of the job that I have. If I didn't have my job, I would feel probably a little better about it. But creeping up to 40, I thought, oh no, is this it? Did I just have six and a half years and that's it? That panic definitely set in.

Six and a half years of what? Of this job, this career, these opportunities. You know, you hear so much about once you hit 40, it's harder to get a job in entertainment or it's harder to remain relevant in entertainment. And I hear those things. I hear it from the people around me who are over 40 and in entertainment. And so that started to make me panic thinking, okay, things might start to wind down and I'm going to have to find a way to make my peace with that. How interesting. Is that something that is a sort of background worry for you, or it was just a momentary sort of spasm? No, no, I hate to say it because it sounds probably pathetic, but up until maybe three years ago, it wouldn't have bothered me. I would have thought if it all ends, so be it. I only have Queer Eye and Queer Eye was a lot of fun, but if it ends, this was never my life goal.

So hey-ho, let's move on. But since then, so much has happened And I really do love this job. It's not just I did it to appease a few people and to get a message out that I wanted to convey. Now, when I'm no longer trying to push an agenda, when I'm just having fun and really loving it, do I really want it to go away? The answer is no. onto the show and I signed on with a big agency. They said, what do you want to do next? After Queer Eye, it hadn't come out at that point, but it was about to. And I said, oh, nothing. I'm good with just Queer Eye. I can't imagine it's ever going to take off. And so I'll go back to my normal life. And now that couldn't be further from the truth. And just to put this out there, not only is it a fabulous show, incredibly heartwarming, a lot of tears, big emotion. And although I suppose broadly speaking, it's sort of in the reality genre, but it feels very organic. It feels very lightly formatted, right? Can I actually tell you how it does work? Because a lot of the time we get confused with reality shows. And I know we are a reality show, but

in the US we call us unscripted And we're in a slightly different category. When I think of a reality show, I think of The Only Way is Essex, The Kardashians, those kind of shows, which are heavily, heavily, heavily produced. The storylines are heavily produced. With Queer Eye, we never ever have a script. Whatever we say, if a camera didn't catch it, a mic didn't catch it, it's never repeated. And I think that's what makes our show really special. catch it, I might didn't catch it. It's never repeated. And I think that's what makes our show really special. It's more doc style than it is a reality show. And also that although there are reality beats like the reveal and the before and after, it's also the case that there is real depth to the way in which the lives of the contributors who you call heroes, there's a hero in each episode, are sort of explored. And also that the Fab Five themselves

sometimes have moments of vulnerability and tenderness, exploring their own lives, revealing parts of their story that feel just very authentic and true. When it feels like it makes sense for the hero, we will give as much as we can of our own story to try and encourage the person that we're helping to open up. We're not dealing with entertainers. We're dealing with people who have never been on camera before.

And it's a really intimidating thing, in my opinion, for them to do, especially after season one. Once the show came out, a lot of people knew who we were. And so a person off the telly coming into your home and asking you about your underwear oh your deepest darkest secrets is really intimidating and so the way we found connection and common ground with them is by saying we've been through similar things let me share my story with you and hopefully that will encourage you to share your story with me. And in addition, you're also in places where five gay guys might not automatically feel safe or welcome. And I'm remembering the one you did with a cop called

Corey, in which Karamo, who's the culture expert who happens to be black, is having to basically deal with the history of racism in the police force and his encounters with cops in a way that I imagine was quite hard for him. Cromwell was really upset that episode. He didn't know that we were going to get pulled over by the police. Cromwell was not meant to be driving that episode. Well, for people who haven't seen it, it's got an extraordinary opening. So do you generally start by driving into the town or the place? Is that the thing, Steve is that yeah that's most

episodes five of you wayne's world style crammed into a vehicle not singing bohemian rhapsody but talking about the hero that you're about to meet and in this one in the rigged camera that's in the car you see in the in the behind you a police car's pulled up? The five of you looked genuinely panicked. Yeah. Then so then what happened? It turns out... So first off, when we are about to start our date, that scene is called Dossier Read. We had been shooting the show for about a month when we shot that episode. And so we knew how Dossier Read went. We fight for who's going to drive that day. And Bobby was meant to be driving. We always have an assigned driver, but one of us will say, no, I want to drive this one. It's a short one. I can do this one. You do the longer

one. I'm tired today. We have silly arguments like that. And so Bobby was meant to be driving. Karama was frustrated saying, you drove last week. I want to drive. And the producers were being really difficult about it saying, no, no, we don't want you to drive. Bobby needs to drive this time. And Karama put his foot down and won. So he drove. But that was all the case, not knowing that we were going to be pulled over by a police officer, which was staged. But none of us knew this. The producers will plan certain things to prank us or to get us in a situation that feels very realistic. And so we're not rehearsed and so crammo drove and we started to get pulled over by a police officer cram was really angry because he felt like the production should have told him what

was happening because a black man being pulled over by the police it will is a scary situation for any black man in america is it he either he or someone says oh i know this kind of cop yeah there's a definite mood a tense mood that settles quickly in the car and then one of you starts filming or taking a photo bobby of the cop thinking like this could spin out right this could go sideways quite quickly yeah and what you don't see is cromo and i tried to stop bobby from filming because cromo and i have both been pulled over by the police and we were saying look it may seem fine for you to film this police officer. You three are white.

Do not lead this. We'll lead how this is going to go. Just basically shut up all of you and we'll handle it. And then the cop came over, asked him to get out of the car. And he was being a little aggressive. And so it made us all panic. But we travel in convoy. So we have a production team ahead of us, a production team behind us.

And they could hear that we were getting worried and thankfully one of them said just calm down we're here if anything goes wrong and that seemed to settle Karamo and Karamo got out of the car and thankfully that's when he revealed he wasn't actually pulling us over so did you feel a little I don't want to dig into like this isn't an expose about the practices of your production team but did you have a word with them after? Oh yeah. So what was the upshot of all of that? Like we don't really, that was too close to the line. Yeah. Me and Karamo spoke to them, but I know that our white counterparts also spoke to them to say,

look, we understand that you want this to feel as real as possible. And we understand that Karamo fought to drive the episode, but if you know that something is going to happen that could actually be triggering, we need to know those things. If it's something that could truly be traumatizing for one of us, let us know. And so since then, there's never been a situation like that, thank gosh. And across the board, you're in spaces, as I said, where you might not feel welcome. I think that first season's all shot around Georgia. Is that right? Yeah, correct.

And for someone like Corey the Cop, who I think you also find can make America great, again, cap and a Trump-Pence sign. And just without, I'm not trying to make this about Corey, but, you know, across the board, someone says something racist or offensive or insensitive or however you want to characterize it, and then you sort of slightly have to be on your best behavior. And you might even be thinking, I don't even know how much I want to help this person now. Does that make sense? I'm just wondering, because it's sort of built into the format

that it has to be positive, right? Uh-huh. Which is sometimes the hardest part of the show for me. And I'm sure that's the case for Karamo. I don't want to speak for Karamo. But yeah, the most difficult part is sometimes meeting somebody that you just think, I know we're meant to be helping you and I want to do all I can to help you, but you're kind of an a-hole and you don't seem very appreciative

or you're racist or you're homophobic. What am I doing here? And so I still 100% support the idea of the show and what we are trying to achieve. But sometimes we're still human, we can't help but be frustrated. There was actually the very first episode I ever shot. It was my first day on camera. I had a really weird racist interaction with our hero. And I won't speak ill of him because he passed away recently and you don't speak ill of the dead. However, he made a really odd comment that threw me and really made me think this isn't the job for me. So I tried to quit the show. He asked me, no, he called me a terrorist in the car. It was me and him alone. We were going to do my scene and I was

picking him up from somebody else's scene. And we were in convoy again. The producers are ahead and behind listening to our conversations. And he assumed I was Mexican. A lot of Americans assume if there's somebody brown, they must be Mexican. And so he asked me something in Spanish. I tried to use some Spanish words and I said, I'm sorry, I don't know what you're saying. I don't speak Spanish. And he was really confused by that and said, aren't you from Mexico?

I was like, no, I'm not. Does my accent lead you to believe I might be? And he was like, I don't know where your funny accent's from. I said, oh, I'm from England, but I'm Pakistani. And he was like, Pakistan, like where the terrorists are from. I said, well, Muslims are from, a lot of Muslims from, I'm Muslim, but we're not terrorists. And he was like, wait, are you a terrorist? Like you're Muslim and you're Pakistani? I was like, no, I need you to understand how ridiculous a comment that is. Was he trying to be funny? No, no, not at all.

He was genuinely just speaking from a place of complete ignorance. He got really concerned that we were in the car alone because he couldn't believe that it signed up for a show that would have him sit in a car with a Muslim. And so my normal reaction, I'm from basically a council estate. And when you're from a place like

mine you learn to handle yourself and many years ago if that wasn't tan france on tv that situation would have gone very differently and so it is very hard to not act in a way that is instinctive or instinctual for me and to really just try and be kind at all times and say oh no sir let me tell you why you shouldn't call me a terrorist to my face in all honesty what would you have said if there'd been no cameras my response when somebody's aggressive to me well before this because i've learned to be on my best behavior my initial response would have been bitch are you out of your fucking mind like try saying that to my face again. Really? Does that work? It has done in the past. Up until Queer Eye, I would like to believe that anyone who was aggressive to me realized real quick that

that was probably unwise. I may be small and campy, but it doesn't mean I can't handle myself. Yeah. Yeah. It's the beauty of the show that you are going to places that you're not preaching to the choir, let's put it that way. You're very much going out into middle America and sometimes you're risking your own comfort and safety in order to bring a message of acceptance, right? Yeah. And also, just to point this out, the show is a sort of adapted reboot of a show called Queer Eye for the Straight Guy that was on Bravo, right? Yes. Around 2003, which was a big hit on Bravo. Massive, yes.

And I know that because the year before, Bravo showed a program. It was an American network and it showed a program called Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends, which was not a big hit. You were on Bravo? Yeah, I was on Bravo. Well, then I know the answer as to why it's not a big hit you were on bravo yeah i was on bravo well then i know the answer as to why it's not a big hit it was on bravo bravo's for the gays is it bravo's the network that all the gays watch and they want to watch the show to be angry or sassy at the characters who's going to be angry or sassy about you well that's not we've arrived at my failure to connect with a gay fan base

earlier than i expected there's a little part of me that craves, you know, because someone like this isn't about me. I can't believe you've got me exposing my own insecurities. kinds of programs I make and being someone vaguely funny who goes among either celebrities or people who think in ways that are different and sort of kind of bonding but also cracking wise and she's got a huge I don't need to tell you I don't I think she's got a huge gay following right that does not surprise me I love Ruby Wax me not so much like I don't think I'm like particularly anyway you haven't got big gay energy I would never say that about you your cousin does so well with the gays I don't know what it is that you well come on my cousin's very good looking and exquisitely groomed he is I've got I don't know I think I've got man in a shed energy does that mean that's not a phrase I just you know do you

want me to be, well, I was about to be really honest. I can't not be really honest. It's my biggest issue in life is I can't not say what I'm thinking. I know your work, which is why I wanted to do this podcast

when most podcasts I don't agree to anymore. But if I didn't know you, I would think he seems like the kind of guy who would say something mean about me after we've done the podcast

about me being gay. But I know that that's not you. But you just seem so straight that you couldn't possibly be nice to us, but you are, you're lovely. Right. You know, look, I appreciate your honesty. That isn't what I was expecting. And you've given me a lot to think about. I feel like I'm having my own sort of one man queer eye experience. Let me articulate it though, please. I'm going my own sort of one-man queer eye experience. Let me articulate it, though, please.

I'm going to pull it this further. I haven't lived in England for a long time, but you are my idea of a very posh man. Okay. And I'd assume raised upper class. And so those folks, I just always assume, can't possibly like the marginalised groups very much. Oh, gosh.

That's painful. It's just good that I'm hearing that. Obviously, I've known your work for years, so I know gosh that's painful i mean it's just good that i'm hearing that obviously i've known your work for years so i know that that's not you but if we didn't know you from tv or radio you'd fit the mold you know it's good that you're telling me this stuff because i feel like i'm looking in a mirror of truth and here in i'm thinking that I sort of pass as deeply metrosexual. Wow. And it's good to hear that. It's good to hear that.

It's not good as such. It's perhaps something that I'm... You get the medicine that you need, not the medicine you want, right? I mean, there's nothing you can do. You speak in a posh way and you are who you are. You've got to be who you are. However, I will double down on the fact that it wasn't your fault that the show didn't work. It just was definitely the wrong network.

Yeah. If your show had gone somewhere else, it would have been a success. Well, here was the, so I was thinking, well, the problem is Bravo. No one's heard of it. They can't have a hit.

Like no one's watching. Like they just, they could probably only in a hundred homes. And then the following year, Queer Eye came on and was I was like oh turns out they could have the biggest hit on tv Bravo is one of the most successful cable networks in America as soon as they ditched the posh homophobic English guy everything took off you know I was in a gay porn film excuse me I was in a gay porn film as in an episode of Weird Weekends. I only mention that because I'm trying to burnish my credentials

as someone who is very much down with the colours of the rainbow. It's called Take a Peek, and it's on Weird Weekends, season one. And what were you doing in this film? I played a park ranger who visits some guys who are in a ski lodge, and I have to announce that there's been an escape at a local prison and a very sexy convict is on the loose. Of course he is. And at any point did you have to remove any clothes?

No. Well, not for that, but I did take my clothes off to audition for the porn agent. So there is that. You're exposing me which is definitely the wrong way around you know this is i do this for a living so i can't help but ask you questions of course i know well you're doing it too successfully right now i was going to say that but what we have now with with queer eye on netflix is the fact that unlike bravo it has an international reach netflix is in 190 countries.

I know because I researched it. 193. Oh my God. I was rounding down. Is it 193? 193 countries, yeah. Well, perhaps you can tell me how many paying subscribers they have. 240 million at this point.

I've got 230. I've got 230 written down. But your numbers might be more up to date. This is good. I don't even have to use my sheets. And how many people are watching Queer Eye then? Do we know that? We do, but we are never allowed to reveal that. Tens of millions. The point is, it's truly global. Like its reach is everywhere, including countries where the situation with regard to respect of an acceptance of the gay or the LGBT community is very far from being perfect. Yeah, it does well in Pakistan. I mean, things like that blow my mind.

Absolutely blows my mind. And in Saudi Arabia. And Saudi. Did you read about where I think homosexuality is a crime? It is. And nevertheless, they get to see Que see queer eye which is almost a kind of dissonance because i was thinking about this today and reed hastings apparently i guess saudi arabia said well we're not sure about this netflix and reed hastings one of the head guys at netflix

went in and they kind of negotiated because the other one is orange is the new black which has quite some hot lesbian scenes, I think. It does. And they said, OK, we'll show those. But the deal was we're going to take off an episode of a show by Hassan Minhaj. Did you know about that? Hassan's a friend of mine. I do know about this.

The show's called The Patriot Act. And he did one episode about Saudi that was very negative. And they were really unhappy. So he's no longer allowed to go to Saudi, which is actually a real issue for Hassan. Hassan, I believe, still identifies as Muslim, and it's a very important component of the religion. And so, yeah, it's really shitty what they did.

You were saying it's an important component, that he should be able to go to Mecca and make Hajj? Yeah, there's five pillars of our religion that one should do action during their lifetime and one of them is to do hodge to do hodge i said make hodge that was probably wrong i'm doing the best i can that's the face of gammon but to add on to that the importance for me of doing query is that we get to be in countries where you typically won't see people like us. I swear to God, and I've said this before, the reason why I did the show initially was because I wanted people like me who had never seen themselves on TV, who are Muslim and queer or South Asian and queer to think, okay, I do have an opportunity for a decent, happy life.

And what I'm doing isn't wrong. It was the main driving force behind me doing the show. As I mentioned earlier, I'd never auditioned for anything before. And I saw this as an opportunity to be myself and show people my humanity. Well, that's a great point. Because what strikes me is that you're at the interface of so many different constituencies that are in different ways important for you. And that you have to, in certain respects, be aware of those and to some extent serve all of those while also being true to yourself. And that must be very stressful. You know, you've got your family, you've got the Muslim community, you've got the pakistani community you've got the kind of broadly defined viewing public right you've got the gay community and all of them are thinking well

we want you to speak for us right yeah and we want you to kind of reflect our values and those don't always align it's um definitely the hardest part of the job. The first year or so, I was a really different person. I really, really struggled with the pressure of trying to be the best version of all of those things. I'm not the best version of all those things. I do shitty things. What does that even mean, though, the best? These can't be quantified.

Yeah, but what the audience would suggest is the best version. And again, it can't be quantified. And so no matter what what the audience would suggest is the best version. And again, that it can't be quantified. And so no matter what I did, however you slice it, I was never going to be the perfect role model for any of those communities that I represent. And as you mentioned, I represent so many of them. And so I felt so greatly that I was doing my community a disservice, or maybe I was pushing too hard and all those communities weren't ready for it. And so that first year I really struggled. I would see, I stupidly left my Instagram open. So I would see DMs, I would see comments because I thought it was important for me to understand what the audience was thinking of me and my work. But really it just became an opportunity for

everyone to share their disdain for how I was living my life. Don't get me wrong, it was balanced out by incredible comments from wonderful people all over the world, which was so nice. But it's so rare, you focus on those when you're getting beaten constantly. Well, one negative comment is, you know, for whatever reason outweighs 100. Yeah, it negates all the good ones. So yeah, that first year, year and a half was pretty brutal on my mental health. And then I decided to turn off my comments on Instagram and stop reading what people had to say about me and just do the damn job. And then I started being more vocal about it on my social saying, I've never said I'm going to represent you all. I'm going to do the best I can to represent all the communities I can, but I can only do it my way. And if you

don't agree with it, so be it. You go and show what a good version of a Muslim, a Pakistani, a queer person is. Feel free to do so, but I want to show you my version. And so since then, I've kind of have a, it's not a fuck it mentality, but it's a, I'm doing my best, fuck off mentality. Can you generalize about what was coming in? Like, was there a particular slant to the comments? Yeah, most of the comments were, you're not Muslim, you're not one of us because you're gay or queer. It's completely against the religion. You shouldn't be promoting the fact that you're one of us, or even Pakistani. Initially, when the show first came out, I was still Donny Tan is what I call myself,

the other version of me. I'm from Doncaster, so we refer to it as Donny. And Donny Tan, as I said, was a little more aggressive. And so I would reply to some of those people saying, I know for a fact that you are not the perfect Muslim you think you are. I'm sure that you do things that are against religion, drink, had sex outside of marriage, had sex before marriage, you've looked at a woman, you've fantasized about a woman, all those things. I know that you've done that. So who the fuck are you to judge me? Have you ever, I don't want to be, get really heavy, but I'll ask it. Have you ever felt physically unsafe? Oh gosh, so many times, so many times within that first year in particular, but again, it may have happened since, I just don't know because we don't have DMs open,

where people said, you should die, we're going to kill you, all those shitty things. You've got speaking engagement, we know we're going to kill you. We know you're releasing your book, you're going to Barnes and Noble. If you don't kill yourself, we'll kill you. That bullshit. Wow. But that must be pretty frightening. You know, the mean comments were more frightening than those. I don't know why. I spoke to my husband about it a lot. I always thought they're not going to travel to attack me. And I don't know where that confidence came from or that stupidity came from. I just thought, I'll be fine. They always provide security wherever I go publicly. So I just thought they'll be fine they always provide security wherever I go publicly so I just

thought they'll find a way to protect me well good for you for not feeling intimidated no and even on the street if somebody there's only been a couple of situations where it's very clear that somebody's really angry at me I box just as a side note I box and I've been boxing for a long time I fight pretty well and I'm in great shape, by the way. I saw your recent post where you posted a selfie with a, what's the term? Yes, a scan. A scan on your tummy. And mainly what I was looking at was how toned you were looking. Thanks, thanks. I work out a lot and I box a lot. And so I feel relatively safe. I will say that

growing up in the community I did, there was so much violence. I learned to box a lot. And so I feel relatively safe. I will say that growing up in the community I did, there was so much violence. I learned to be really violent and it's not a side of me that I ever talk about because it's not cutesy Netflix. It's not cutesy Queer Eye and I'm meant to be, I'm always positioned to be the classy one. It's not on brand. It's not on brand at all. It's not on brand to hear about the bare knuckle years of town France. The most feared man in Doncaster. Don't let him catch you in a blind alley. See, here's the thing. I was never, ever a violent person.

And I never wanted to be. But circumstances forced me to just learn to protect myself. And so I think when you go through all those years of just being ready to fight back, at this age now, it doesn't really scare me walking down the street. I think if somebody hits me, I'll hit them back. Wow. I love that. You need like a spinoff show where you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast. And now back to my conversation with Tan France. You have how many followers on Instagram? I'm so lame to say, but I'm 2,004 million.

2,004 million. Come on, people. Let's get Tan. It's like a telethon. We just need 2,000 more people. And when you started, I was reading this just today, when you started, you know, when you went for the audition to be in Queer Eye, you had how many? About 200-ish. Amazing. And it was actually the first week that i got my first million

really oh the first week that it went out on air yeah i got 900 and something thousand followers amazing first week it was insane life changed so much within a day i've been in tv for what coming up on 25 years I've got to think about 700 800,000 that's actually I'm not just saying this to be honest

don't patronise me that's actually no it's great please don't patronise me because let me say this Tan France I don't need you patronising me

it's great because you're not I've got three BAFTAs you're not on Netflix right I was on Bravo man I built that I nearly swore I built that

network Bravo I paved the way I built that fucking I nearly swore. I built that network. Bravo. I paved the way. You can swear. It's a safe space. You can swear. I built that fucking network. They were nothing. No, here's the thing. They dragged me down. Millions of followers is a Netflix effect. And it's very well known here in LA in particular.

I'm not just saying this because I drank the Kool-Aid. I love them. They're so good to me. And I will say, look, there are many shows that launch that aren't very successful and maybe they're not as supportive. Maybe they don't champion their success. But when you work really hard, they give me so many opportunities. I can't believe how good they are. Because you're bringing home the bacon. Well, not bacon, choose a different meat. The turkey bacon. I'm bringing home the turkey bacon. The turkey bacon. Yeah, the f the turkey bacon. The turkey bacon. Yeah, the fakin', if you're a vegetarian.

But I think people will be curious to know just how you came to be on Queer Eye, having had no background in show business. How do you suddenly become a presenter host on one of the biggest shows on TV? With no experience? With zero relevant experience. That's a wonderful setup. So here's the thing. A lot of people think I just came out of the blue and it was handed to me on the plate, and it really was.

That is exactly what happened. I'm very lucky. So just to backtrack a little, I had businesses. I was a designer. I had four businesses. Three of little, I had businesses. I was a designer. I had four businesses, three of them were my main businesses. One of them I purchased within the last few months of my company and my businesses did exceptionally well. And so I sold them all to retire. And so business had done well and we wanted to retire and have children and just travel the world with the kids. My goal was to always retire by 40. My dad wanted to retire and have children and just travel the world with the kids. My goal was to always retire

by 40. My dad wanted to retire by 50. He passed away when he was in his 40s. And so when I was a kid, I thought, yeah. And so very young, I thought I want to do all I can try and retire by 40 so that God forbid, if I suffer the same destiny as my father, hopefully I'll have a few years where I can actually enjoy my life and not work for somebody else. And somehow miraculously, we got to a point where we could retire. And a friend of my friend is a manager in Hollywood. And one of my businesses that I had was with a blogger, an influencer. And he had said, is there any chance we could do a show about your business partner? She's got three sisters, they're all influencers. It could be like a Utah Kardashians.

Right. What was the family called? The family's called the? The Scholars. The Scholars. And they're famous within Utah, is that right? Actually, they're famous in the US in the fashion scene. So you'll see them at front row fashion shows. So these girls were doing well. They had million dollar businesses also. They lived a life that could seem very sexy to the audience. And they were all in were doing well. They had million dollar businesses also. They lived a life that could seem very sexy to the audience. And they were all in their twenties. They all had kids. They're a very interesting family, but they're all white and a white show in 2017 was not going to

sell. They needed somebody of color. And so he said, look, can you help me reach these girls? And would you be willing to just be in the background, be an extra? We just can't have a full white show and you represent so many marginalized groups. We can have a one and done. I was like, sure, let me arrange a meeting with them. We can have a one and done. What is a one and done? So instead of having to find a gay person to be on the show, a person of color, a this or that. Oh, you tick all the boxes. Yeah. And I'm not deluded. I know that that's possibly one of the reasons why I got the job. We can get back into it in a moment, but that's one of the reasons I got the job.

I ticked so many boxes. So I arranged to go to these network meetings with these girls and this manager. And one of those meetings was your old nemesis, Bravo. And whilst I was at Bravo, we were all sat around this table with a bunch of their executives. They'd seen a little sizzle reel that was created. And they said, look, girls, you were all sat around this table with a bunch of their executives. They'd seen a little sizzle reel that was created. And they said, look, girls, you're all lovely, but a show like this

will destroy your family. You're already close. Maybe this isn't a thing you should be doing. And quite honestly, you're too vanilla for TV. And then she turned to me, this executive and said, you on the other hand, I could put on TV tomorrow. And I was like, oh, I had barely said a word. I was, I thought I was really quiet, but apparently I wasn't. I don't know how to be. I said, Oh, that's very nice, but I have no interest in being on television. And so she said, can we not convince you to stay any longer to talk more? I was like, absolutely not. I'm not interested. Thank you. Anyway. So a few weeks later, I retired fully, got a call from this guy saying, after your meeting at Bravo, they put a word in at Netflix and suggested that they cast you on Queer Eye as the fashion guide. They've been looking for this

person for six months. They've auditioned two and a half thousand people. They've all been no's. You might actually be it. I had a call with Netflix a couple of weeks later, even though I told this manager guy, no, thank you. I'm not interested. He kept calling and said, just take a call with them. Just take a call. So I did. It went really well. They invited me to a chemistry test in LA. It went very well because I didn't care and I didn't want the job. I just thought I'm going to go, I'm going to make some gay friends and that's it. So there was no pressure for me. So I was saying everything I would say to anyone. And I was so myself that i did something really strange during i want if you don't mind i'm going to really give you the full

go on story about what happened so the chemistry is the first night is a cocktail party they see how you interact with everybody and then there was this section that lasted half a day where you all are all called up in turn and you go from station to station as if it were speed dating and you spend seven minutes at each table. And each table, there were four tables, had a Netflix executive, a production company executive, and some other random person, whoever they might be. And there's a fishbowl on each table and you pull out a question. I was watching other people do it and I thought, that's so not me. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't answer those questions. And so when it was my turn, they said, okay, will you take a question from the fishbowl? And I said, no, thank you. And they said, what do you mean? No, thank you. I said,

if you want to talk, talk, you want to get to know me, get to know me. And I said, I'm an open book. I'll discuss whatever you want. I said, but I've heard some of the questions. You don't need to know when I last flew a kite. I have no interest in telling you about my kite experience. I said, I heard you got a divorce recently. Do you want to tell me about that? Was it you who asked for the divorce or your partner and how are you feeling about it? And this was the creator of the show. And he said, wait, are you serious? And I said, yeah, I'm deadly serious. Are you the reason you're getting a divorce or was it your partner? And he was like, I can't believe that you're not willing to take a question, but I'll answer your question. And then by the time I can't believe that you're not willing to take a question, but I'll answer

your question. And then by the time I got to the fourth one, they had heard that I was the guy who refused to take questions from the bowl because I wanted to talk about whatever I wanted to talk about. That was clearly the right move because by the end of that, they said, let's put you in a room and start rotating other dudes and see who you get along with. That's amazing. So you were the right person in the right place at the right time. But it's easy to imagine a world where maybe none of this would have happened. And you would be what? Sort of just retired, living in Salt Lake?

Yeah, I would be a stay-at-home parent. It was my dream. It's still potentially my dream. In the next few years, I would love to cut back a heck of a lot and just do off-camera work and produce so I can be at home and help raise my children. Wow. So let's talk about Doncaster. And in passing, I'd like to reflect on, for those who don't know,

the fact of you living in Salt Lake City, it's thousands of miles from Doncaster. It's a city in Utah in the west of the States. It's known as a sort of headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter-day Saints, aka Mormonism. I think it's sort of 90% white, very much kind of corn-fed, beautiful in the Rockies in the distance, but quite conservative, I think, right? Very, yeah, very conservative. Both senators are Republicans, are they they are nevertheless

i'm told that salt lake is quite gay friendly it is it's the most liberal part of utah and you really can't swing a cat without hitting 10 gays the gays are everywhere we have the largest gay community per capita in america how do you explain that i have no idea other than the Mormons, they separate the sexes a lot. And so I think that they spend a lot of time with other men and just realise that they've developed an appetite for the same sex. Right. Are there, this is going to, I'm going to ask a question from a place of ignorance. In terms of the LDS, do they tend to be gay friendly?

Like, is it a kind of, like the teachings in the Book of Mormon and whatnot, it's not terribly sort of bigoted and retrograde? No, I mean, it depends on what part of Utah you're living in. There's a place called Utah County where I know that people are as welcoming with the queer community. However, here in Salt Lake, it is really quite liberal. Actually, the best way I can articulate this is by saying all of my friends in Utah are LDS. They're all active Mormons. They go to church, they go to

temple, they believe in the covenants of the church, but there are certain aspects that they believe just aren't right and that those decisions were made by men. But the church has come out multiple times, and I'm not trying to defend the church, but they've come out multiple times saying, we understand that queer is a thing, that there are gay people. We just can't have gay marriage in the church, but we should treat them kindly. We should not be disrespectful. And don't get me wrong, that flip-flops every now and then. But on the whole, my experience with the Mormon church has been nothing but pleasant. And Rob, your husband, whose parents were ranchers in Wyoming,

and I think he was raised LDS, Mormon. Does he still consider himself Mormon? No. He believes in God, but he doesn't. No, he's not an atheist. He definitely believes in God, but I don't think he believes in that way of going about it. Meanwhile, over in Doncaster,

which is a world away in various senses where you grew up. I mean, what's striking having seen your work and read your book and read up on your story is how dreadful a lot of your experiences were growing up that you were exposed to some of the worst kinds of racism. I was really struck watching a program you made called Beauty and the Bleach, which was about colorism. And there's a sequence in which you were about to go home, go back to Doncaster to explore some of your childhood experiences. And as it plays out on screen,

you just have a strong urge not to go back. You basically don't go back. That caused some issues with the BBC, but yes. The plan was, as part of the documentary, I would go back and revisit my experiences in Doncaster. However, and this is an arrogant comment, but it is who I am at this point. I don't get told what to do. I'll do what I want to do. And even if I get fired from Netflix, I've got my money. I can make my own choices. I'm not beholden to anyone. I thought I could do it. I couldn't, I wasn't ready and

I didn't want to feel like shit. And so I'd rather piss off a lot of people and say no. Yeah. It made me very sad. And I had to explore my own sort of preconceptions a bit when watching it because a part of me wanted to feel okay about Doncaster, right? And, you know, England, you know, I hated to reflect on how awful it must have been for you. You know, I will say that's the hard part of talking about life in the UK. The Brits don't want to hear it. They're not ready to hear it. It makes them really, really angry. And I think that speaks volumes, Louis.

I think that it is a real issue we have back home. And it's the reason why I'm so much happier here. And that comment also gets a lot of negative reaction, a huge negative reaction saying, we've seen the racism on the news in America, you're telling us that it's worse than the UK. For me personally, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. For the black community here in America, racism is disgusting, and it has affected. For the black community here in America, racism is disgusting and it has affected their lives so greatly. And in England, that might be the case also,

but I don't know the black experience in the UK. I know the Asian experience and I've got a lot of family and we all experienced the same thing. My family continues to experience the same thing. I left the UK 15 years ago and I'm not saying that I hate the UK. I love the UK and I love the majority of the people in the UK are amazing and have been so good and

compassionate and aren't racist at all. But as we know, it's not those lovely people that are speaking up. It's the people who hate you who are going to tell you they hate you on the street. And so incredibly frustrated a lot of the time with, especially the press, not willing to believe or just believing that me and any other entertainer who speaks out about it in the US, who's come from the UK, is an arrogant douche who's left the UK and now thinks we're better than them. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that we've now left the UK, so we feel galvanized and powerful enough to be able to say, we don't expect anything from you, so we can now speak about how bad the damage was that was done to us. I hear all of that. And I think it's,

it may be confusing to some people, because in the US, you know, we have a former President Trump, who basically spoke in nakedly, brazenly, Islamophobic terms, whereas here in the UK, we clearly have people of colour, Prime Minister, ministers on the front bench, people in positions of influence and power who come from South Asian and Muslim backgrounds. Nevertheless, there's no denying that racism is routine. And I'm curious to explore with you aspects of that. I mean, you talk about aged, I think, six, that you were actually physically beaten up by men on the way to school. And that was, I mean the first occasion and you were talking earlier about basically physically needing to defend yourself on other occasions

yeah can you talk about that at all yeah so my dad and I won't speak I love my dad I love my dad but my dad was really angry obviously at what had, but angry that I didn't fight back. I find that it's just very odd. Like you, when you were so young, I mean, how would you fight back? I mean, I've got an eight year old, the way you walk him to school. Anyway, your dad had his reasons, I guess. I think he was angry at himself. Actually, I know he was angry himself, because he believed that he could have put us in a better position for us to be able to protect ourselves. And he did do that with my older brothers. They were able to protect themselves.

My oldest brother was incredibly strong and always won the fight. And so my dad possibly was right to expect that of me also. I just wasn't prepared. You were six though. You just said you were six, right? Yeah. However, my other siblings could take care of themselves at a young age, really young age.

Even against older kids, they would find a weapon and make it home. And I didn't. And so it fucked me up for a really long time. There were so many weird feelings. But over the years, I learned my dad is going to continue to be really angry at me if I don't figure this shit out. And so I better start hitting back. Even if I'm in pain, I learned my dad is going to continue to be really angry at me if I don't figure this shit out. And so I better start hitting back. Even if I'm in pain, I hit back. Eventually,

you just learn to win the fight. By the time I got to like 15, 16, I learned this isn't stopping it. It's not helping the situation. I still get hurt. And so I started to use humor and my personality to try and get out of the situation to try and make them like me within those 10 seconds to avoid a beating but yeah these were strangers like randoms on the streets yeah yeah complete strangers racist white people yeah teenagers yeah kids would say shit but that didn't bother me it was when it came from the older people it was usually grown-ups it was almost always grown-ups especially when I hit Manchester and I moved to Manchester when I was 17 they were in their 20s and 30s and you were saying that from speaking to your family your strong impression is that things haven't got much better. Is that right?

I know this to be the case. I was in England two years ago and I was on the bus from my mum's house into town because I thought it would be a cute cultural experience because I hadn't been on the bus since I was like 17. And somebody called me a packie on the bus. I stupidly thought that my success would negate all of that shit for me. But if somebody doesn't know who I am, I'm still just a random packy on the street. Describe if you can the feeling of that inability or that unwillingness to go back because it's obviously visceral and strong. And what can you describe it? It's just Yeah, No, it's the best way to describe it is that you start to feel really nauseated.

Have you ever been kicked in the balls? Yes, of course. Yeah. You know that feeling where- It's a strange feeling because it's not a normal pain. It's like, it's a very weird, different kind of a pain.

Like you say, it's so vaguely nauseous. Yeah, that's the feeling I feel. And I started in the car to feel lightheaded. My body had never responded this way to anything. It feels like almost an emotional shutdown. Maybe you could have forced yourself to go back, but some part of you felt like it wasn't worth it. I absolutely could have gone. I could have forced myself. I could have just said, look, you drive. I'm just going to get rid of my dizziness. I'm going to sit in the passenger seat

and you take me. During that drive, I just thought, what am I doing this for? Who am I doing this for? Who is it going to benefit? It's not benefiting me. Who am I really doing this for? A TV network? Fuck off. And that's not to denigrate the BBC. Fuck off, BBC. Fucking BBC. Can we also say

fuck you to ITV because they're driving insane. Where are all the brown people on ITV? Oh really? You think ITV's bad with representation? Fucking hell yeah. Sorry, I don't know if somebody warned you about my terrible language beforehand but I started it.

I said fuck Bravo. But yeah, I get pissed off that they just won't put any Asians on primetime. Are we really not entertaining in any way enough to have a primetime show? I don't think any British network has an Asian on primetime TV, and I don't know what the fuck is wrong. That can't be true, can it? Oh, can you think of one?

Well, look, I was thinking about this on the way here, because I know one of your things was, I saw no one like me on TV growing up. And by the way, just to get this out there, South Asians are the largest minority group in the UK, about 9%. Also, we are 81.7% white, 4% black. And South Asians are the most underrepresented on UK TV, according to a report. And according to Tan France also, yes.

And according to Tan France, leading expert. And also, Islamophobia is the most common form of religious hate crime in the UK. 42% of all religious hate attacks were against Muslims. Does not surprise me at all. Okay, so let's get that out there. So, yes. Now, that being the case, though. No, no, wait, Louis, let me ask you.

Why was I talking too much? Can you think, no, but I really want to throw this back to you. Can you think of a South Asian on primetime TV right now? I'm just thinking about Sanjeev Bhaskar and Mirasayal. I mean, Meet the Kumars was obviously a big show. It was. And then people are like, we've done it now. We don't need to do that again.

Yes. Right now, we have Asian newsreaders, don't we? Naga Munchetti. I'm just going to say this, and please know that I say this with all respect. Oh, fuck off. Okay, thank you. That felt very respectful.

Yes, thank you. Oh, fuck off. You can't give me weather girls and newsreaders. I'm talking newsreaders. No, it's fine. I'm talking about entertainers. Oh, there's too much reality flying around. I know that there's one, I think he's Sri Lankan. He's a comedian. Oh, there we go.

He wears glasses. Romesh Ranganathan. Oh, thank you. Romesh Ranganathan. So I haven't lived in the UK for a very long time and somebody did tell me that he's on... He's on half the shows on television. Which is, I'm so happy. But one does not represent the amount of people we have. No, you're right. But again, all of this within the last four or five years, when I was in the UK, there really wasn't. Yes, there was Meet the Kumars. Yes, there was Goodness Gracious Me.

But other than that, like you guys get 99.9%. We can't say that our point something percent every five years is representation. We can't, Louis. No, no, I agree. I'm totally down with that. It's striking reading up on you that it seems as though you didn't feel any dissonance to do with knowing that you were gay and being in a relatively conservative Muslim family. There was no sense of, I need to stifle this. What's wrong with me? You were just confident and happy in who you were.

I really wish I had a better memory. The weed is Friday, I guess. But there are so many fun memories I have thinking about my siblings planning to get married and me always thinking, well, when I get married, I'm going to marry a man. I was just so matter of fact about it. I don't remember a time when I really struggled with it. And even if my family didn't accept it, I thought, well, then I'll run away. All I can put it down to is being incredibly selfish. I just thought I will make myself happy. Did you formulate that as a thought? Like if my family can't handle it, then I'll just go somewhere else where they can handle it. Yeah, I mean, I planned on running away to America

since I was probably 12, 13. So you've always had a love affair with America? I just saw it as a place where I could be myself. Because I'd seen gays on TV in America, and I thought, okay, well, they let them in. Maybe I can live a happier life there. And then when I first came to America at the age of 17, sorry, that's a lie.

I was 16 when I arrived, but I turned 17 on that trip. It was for my 17th birthday. Was this your weekend in New York? Four days, that's right. Where you lied to your, basically, you didn't even tell anyone. They thought you were like staying at a friend across town. They thought I was like 20 minutes away from my family home. And instead, I was like the ringleader of our little pack of three.

And I convinced my two friends to come to New York with me. They were also 16. So stupid. Oh, gosh, my kid did that. Now I'd slap the shit out of him. You should not hit your kids, everyone. Don't hit your kids. Don't hit your kids.

I wanted to go to America. And so when I came, I realised that no one could tell where we were from. So there was no racism. So I thought, okay, I get to be gay and there's no racism for me. This definitely will be my home. And a couple of my family members didn't know I was gay before I moved to America. And so I really was running away. I'd like to talk for just for a second about family. I think maybe you won't want to only I'm basing that because you've said there are certain things that are very private to me and family is one of them my sense is that growing up it was quite a big thing for your family to deal with you coming out and yeah and then marrying

your husband Rob yeah how long ago was that I married him 13 and a half years ago that was in London you married again in America your family didn't come to the wedding and... They didn't. They didn't know. To be fair, they didn't know I was getting married at that time. They didn't know you were... Well, that would be perhaps because you didn't invite them. Yeah.

Well, I didn't invite them and I didn't tell them. Yes. Fair. Right. So you said for 10 years they've never used his name or they had never used his name. So now it's a very strange feeling with them over Skype because now now i guess there's a relationship there they've actually seen him on facetime and that's a very strange process originally they said you can live the life

you want but never ever bring it home you can never talk about it yeah that was the case from 17 until 35 ish and And I accepted that. I made my peace with it. I always knew they would come around and maybe that's silly to assume, but I know them. And we've always been really close. Even though there was this one massive element of my life

I wasn't allowed to talk about, I love them. I'm really close with them. And so when I told the majority of them at 17, they were also confused. This is your mom, your two brothers and your sister? Yeah. So I told my majority of them at 17, they were all so confused. This is your mum, your two brothers and your sister? Yeah.

So I told my sister and my brother. You're the youngest, I should say that. You're the youngest of the four children. I am. So I told my sister and my brother, and then I told my mum a year later. So I told my sister and my brother, and they were panicked. And they said, okay, look, you know what the religion is. We understand that there is such a thing as gay, but just don't act on it. Okay, that's not going to happen.

Unfortunately, I already have. Too late. So I said, look, I understand that this is going to cause a lot of issues for our community. I'm moving to Manchester anyway. Nobody ever needs to know. And that was what they were really happy with. No one ever needs to know because you're moving away. And so it was just our secret, our family secret for a few years. I called my mom a year later when I was in Manchester and said, hey, this is what's

happening. I want you to know that I'm gay and that I can't ever marry a woman. She struggled, but did better than any of them. She and then said okay let's talk about it when you get home I went home we talked about it and she said I always knew you were different I knew you weren't like your brothers at all so she said I don't think I understood what it was and I still don't understand what it is I've never heard of two men being together but I just knew you were very different from your brothers and so I think she was just more confused she wasn't angry because she wasn't angry at all she didn't make me feel bad no tears?

it wasn't like tears? oh yeah of course from every one of them every time I came out to any one of them there were tears as if somebody had just passed away really? and tears from you as well? what were you experiencing?

yeah of course I was so upset partly the relief of being able to just get it out but also the tears were and recently I told some extended family members and I cried again. And this was shortly before Queer Eye was coming out. I cried again. Even though I feel no shame or upset in my life, I'm very comfortable and happy with my life. I think it's the expectation that everyone has or the worry that you're going to

disappoint them. Or maybe even that they may have an adverse reaction. Who knows? There's so much emotion involved with coming out, even if you feel perfectly secure in yourself. And so that was the case with my mom. I knew that the life that she had planned for me wasn't going to happen. And that upset me for her.

Every one of them, I think, felt comfort in the fact that I wasn't in England and so there wasn't going to be a dramatic moment within the community where they all find out they all realize until Queer Eye Queer Eye changed the game completely because then everyone knew there was no hiding from it and so that's why I've always said I don don't talk about my family. I don't want the small community in my hometown to think that they have a right to know how my family feel about it. That's why I've always been quite cagey about it. We've talked about this a lot and they know how I feel. So jealous that they are all from families and communities where their fame and success and wealth and all this that they've achieved is a positive.

But for me, it's something that I still have to kind of hide like my dirty little secret. Because your family might still experience judgment from what, from the British Pakistani community? Yeah, from the Asian community within their community. In what form do they experience that? The whispers, the gossip, the stories that the kids will come home and tell them from school. This person's mom said this about Uncle Tan.

This person's dad said this about Uncle Tan. They don't think we should go to the same mosque anymore. Those kind of things. That is horrible for them. They don't think we should go to the same mosque anymore. Those kind of things. That is horrible for them. And so I understand that my coming out and my freedom isn't as blissful for them as it is for me. I could imagine some people in your shoes might say,

well, you've obviously got a strong connection with your family, right? Some might say, well, if you don't accept Rob in my life, and it's me and him, or you don't get me without him kind of thing, right? There's a world in which you would have cut ties. No. No. Not at that point. There was a time when I was willing to cut ties,

and that's when we had implanted and we were then pregnant. At that point, I'd said, look, I've been married to my husband for a long time and I can't remember how long it was at that time. You've never met him. We don't talk about him. And if you want me to remain in your life, you will have to meet my son's father and you will have to get to know him.

I'm never going to bring my son to England and pretend he doesn't have another parent for you guys to not acknowledge his other parent. And so they were great about it. They're like, okay, let's meet him. We're not willing to not have you in our lives. We're not willing to not have our grandson or nephew in our lives.

Of course, we'll meet him. Have you hosted your family in Salt Lake? At my LA home, I brought them all out, not last Christmas, Christmas before all 19 of them came to stay. That must have been quite special. It was amazing. They were amazing with him. They're amazing with my son. It was the first time they were meeting my son. He was only five months old. And so yeah, they all got to come out and experience America for the first time. There was so much confusion when I moved to America

from my whole family thinking, how could you leave your family? It's so unheard of for a Pakistani boy to leave his community. We come from such a traditional tight-knit community. You kind of stay close by until you get married. And even after that, you stay close to your family. So for me to leave all alone was quite jarring for everybody. But I kept telling them how much I love this country and the reason why I love this country, and then they came out here, and now they absolutely understand why I love living in America. What is it, do you think, what can be improved? Can you put any kind of a, can you help me understand what that's about?

What makes it better? Yeah. You know, I really can. I've managed to pinpoint it, and this is going to sound ridiculous to you, but you are a very smart man. So I'm hoping you can put yourself in my shoes or any Asian shoes for just a second. Okay. The joy one feels when you walk down the street and don't think,

even for a second, somebody's going to call me a packie. Right. I'm going to have to defend myself at some point from my home to my work, from my work to hanging out with friends, from hangout to home. Somebody might physically or verbally assault me. I can't remember if it was the Daily Mail or some other fuckwits who once said, oh, he's basically trying to suggest that they get this every day. No, I've never said we get this every day. But if you get it often enough, you will be aware of it every day. You will be on high alert every day. I've

never once thought that in America. And every time I go back to England outside of London, I'm hyper aware. And so that's why I can pinpoint it exactly for you. That freedom, you can't put a price on. Hi, me again, Louis Theroux. Just to remind you, you're listening to the Louis Theroux podcast. And now back to my conversation with Tan France. So you've got season seven of Queer Eyes is coming out. So that's exciting. It's crazy that we have seven seasons of a show. That's actually quite uncommon these days,

especially for a streamer. So yeah, I couldn't be more grateful. I mean, what's going to happen when you've fixed everyone, when everyone's been Queer Eye'd? I honestly can't imagine it's going to go longer than maybe one more season. I just can't. I mean, I love the fact that people keep watching. And our last season was weirdly our most successful yet. But even after filming that season, I just thought they've seen it. It's a format show that we do the same thing every episode. But yeah, I'm shocked that people are still so into it. show which I think is perhaps a positive note to end on like it speaks to the urge people have to see something that's celebratory and kind right yeah isn't that nice that a show that is purely positive can be so successful I'm the cynic I guess when I got the show I thought this is never going to work we're just a bunch of people trying to spread positivity that's never going to work yeah so to know that that was possible really does give me hope well congratulations on its

continuing success we didn't even get let me say this can i speak really frankly and say this oh what now that like you haven't been frank i mean i'm just well this is the i'm dealing with the fact that i'm now like i'm kind of an icon of gammon. Like what I heard for you is like, you're the kind of person who is like nice to gay people to their face and then goes off and says something horrible. That's going to stay with me. You actually went a step further. I wasn't saying you were nice to gay people. I said you would talk to gay people. And then later on, what the fuck was that fairy saying?

I legitimately say no to almost every podcast that comes in that i fucking hate a podcast but yeah it's different with you i really wanted to do it so thanks thank you i appreciate that tan thank you so much So here I am again. I hope you enjoyed that. An extremely enjoyable chat, for me anyway. And challenging in parts. I think a lot to think about. Especially the part about me being a kind of gammon incarnate. A gammon flesh puppet. It was a shock to think that someone might imagine I'd be in any way homophobic.

I like to think I telegraph a beneficent sort of 360 tolerance towards everyone. Evidently, that's not always coming across. Something to work on. He said he thought that I might be sort of tolerably nice in person and then talk smack behind the person's back. Well, he's gone now. So here's what I really think. That's a joke. It is striking that Tan's experience of American culture seems to be that it is less ambiently racist than British culture, especially in the post-Trump era where Islamophobia is clearly rampant in the

US and was being promoted from the highest offices of state. I do think that from living in America, it's striking how the nation's relationship with South Asian culture and the South Asian community is quite different to the UK. And there's an almost sort of innocent naivete in their relationship with the South Asian community, which is sometimes just out and out, I guess, racist, you know, in a kind of bumbling way. You think of The Simpsons, which for 20 years had a white actor, Hank Azaria, playing the role of Apu, the Asian storekeeper. And in fact, the whole nature of that character on The Simpsons,

which was so stereotypical that even in the 90s, I remember thinking, wow, it does seem rather one-dimensional and, well, I guess offensive. And then even in the 80s, I remember seeing Fisher Stevens, a white actor, browning up to play an Asian character on Short Circuit, the movie franchise. So what do you make of that? I don't know. What am I trying to say? No one actually knows. Whether Salt Lake City genuinely is the gayest city in America, however you define that, is subject to dispute,

according to some Gallup data from 2017. Salt Lake City is the seventh gayest. I think we're basing that on the number of gay people per capita. Boston is 4.8% gay. Los Angeles 4.6%. Salt Lake City is 4.7%. I am 5.3% gay, in case you were wondering. Intriguing to note his interest in boxing as well.

I'm a fan of boxing. I'm not a fan of actually boxing someone. I mean, I watch it. I don't do it, unlike Tan. He's quite fit. Not overly tall, but he is tight and lithe. He's wiry. Would he be a bantamweight, flyweight, featherweight, strawweight?

Anyway, I don't fancy facing him in the ring or in an alley after dark. Not that I imagine it would happen. Anything, I mean, I know I've wanged on a bit. Is there enough there? Oh, I'll try and link to some relevant material in the show notes. Maybe a couple of bits of Tan's other output that I've enjoyed. He did an interview with Pete Davidson that I found funny, and maybe some relevant links. Just on the off chance there's anything to do with Take a Peek, you'll remember that's the gay porn film that I

was in. I've been dining out on that for nigh on 30 years now. It was very hot. When the park ranger came in in his little park ranger's outfit. Well, it's not for me to say. We filmed it under the title Snowbound. It got three and a half out of five on the Peter meter. That's an industry term. Apparently it's on YouTube. Maybe we can link to that. We'll try not to break the internet.

Okay, moving on. Right, time for credits. This episode was produced by Millie Chu, Paul Kobrak, and Maan Al-Yazari. The production manager was Francesca Bassett, and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series is by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production exclusively for Spotify.