The Louis Theroux Podcast - S2 EP9: Adam Buxton on podcast rivalry, problematic musical heroes, and abandoning social media.

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

In the final episode of the series, Louis is in the Spotify studio with lifelong friend, comedian and fellow podcaster, Adam Buxton. In a typically rambling conversation, they chat about problematic musical heroes, Adam’s ascent to podcast royalty and his anxieties about the culture wars which led to him abandoning social media. Expect salty language and an assortment of impressions. Warnings: Strong language and adult themes.  Links/Attachments: ‘Steve Harwell, the former lead singer of Smash Mouth, dies at 56’ - NPR  https://www.npr.org/2023/09/05/1197578311/steve-harwell-the-former-lead-singer-of-smash-mouth-dies-at-56 ‘Tom Hanks’ - The Adam Buxton Podcast  https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/podcasts/lpbk8k9zbhx54zt-8yl8m-mdzjc-whmf8-2lwfg-emz92-cxnlh-ghwwh-r34cb-sfwnb-kmjcj-x8cgn-gzmzx-xfpt5-x6cma-d8lbc  ‘Kayvan Novak’ - The Adam Buxton Podcast  https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/podcasts/wmcgmfe7zj7chps-89fa4-2e48e-rwzy8-824b8-4mdjd-2hcs8-chrb2-7y8jj-5pcse-2wtsh-cz8zd-e3cdy-g68s7-3dezn-7k5mw ‘Sarah Silverman’ - The Adam Buxton Podcast https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/podcasts/wmcgmfe7zj7chps-89fa4-2e48e-rwzy8-824b8-4mdjd ‘Sarah Silverman: ‘There are jokes I made 15 years ago I would absolutely not make today” - The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/19/sarah-silverman-interview-jokes-i-made-15-years-ago-i-wouldnt-make-today ‘How the alt-right uses internet trolling to confuse you into dismiss its ideology’ - Vox  https://www.vox.com/2016/11/23/13659634/alt-right-trolling  ‘Iggy Pop isn’t about to whitewash his past’ - New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/01/02/magazine/iggy-pop-interview.html ‘The death of the groupie’ - New Statesman  https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/music/2023/05/death-groupie-music-the-beatles-rolling-stones-nick-cave ‘The Man Who Fell to Earth’ (1976) - Trailer  https://youtu.be/KarWCgIw3Wk?si=j7kC5IKpizNdmq9w  ‘The Ricky Gervais Show’ - Podcast  https://youtu.be/9LtjWxmC6KY?si=pI2hH41OvhpFKd0V  ‘The Adam and Joe Show’ - Channel 4  https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-adam-and-joe-show (UK Only) ‘Adam and Joe’ - XFM https://www.adamandjoearchive.org/XFM/ ‘Adam and Joe’ - BBC 6 Music  https://www.adamandjoearchive.org/6%20Music/ ‘Jon Ronson On’ - BBC Radio 4  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007mhqc ‘Attack The Block’ (2011) - Trailer  https://youtu.be/m0ntk1o4V3k?si=3fF9U6ljnkuwnW-7 ‘Louis Theroux’ - The Adam Buxton Podcast https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/podcasts/128 ‘Tash Demetriou’ - The Adam Buxton Podcast https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/podcasts/lpbk8k9zbhx54zt-8yl8m-mdzjc-whmf8-2lwfg-emz92-cxnlh-ghwwh-r34cb-sfwnb-kmjcj-x8cgn-gzmzx-xfpt5-x6cma-d8lbc-9adl4-5smea ‘Ad reads’ - The Adam Buxton Podcast https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/sponsor-ads ‘Louis Theroux’ - Diary of a CEO https://youtu.be/cj8ojSVgU9I?si=RX8_ON5riOIZ8Zhn ‘Michael Barbaro: About Those Hmms’ - New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/24/podcasts/daily-newsletter-reporter-diary-summer-playlist.html ‘The Adrenochrome conspiracy theory – pushed by ‘Sound of Freedom’ star – explained' - Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/conormurray/2023/07/15/the-adrenochrome-conspiracy-theory-pushed-by-sound-of-freedom-star-explained/?sh=218d24645179 Credits: Producer: Millie Chu  Assistant Producer: Maan Al-Yasiri  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett  Music: Miguel D’Oliveira  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows     A Mindhouse Production for Spotify  www.mindhouse.co.uk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

One, two, one, two. Are we ready? You can use that bit if you want. Hi, Louis Theroux here, and welcome to another episode of my Spotify podcast. You know what it's called, I think. The Louis Theroux Podcast. today we have a very special guest not just a guest but a close friend and humanitarian adam buxton actor writer podcaster comedian half of the adam and joe partnership with joe cornish one third of the adam and joe and louie partnership I don't think anyone's used that phrase and legendary podcast host that's his main thing isn't it the Adam Buxton podcast it's kind of the granddaddy of many of these sort of interview podcast formats it now has 65 million all-time listens that's quite a lot I've never interviewed him before, but I've been a frequent guest

on his podcast so much so that sometimes people say, I loved that podcast you did, implying I've hosted it when in fact they're talking about me being on his podcast. And really, because he's been doing it so long, and I was on the first ever one that he did way back in whenever that was. One of the reasons I suppose I've been comfortable doing my own podcast is because of the feeling that I enjoyed being a guest on his shows. And even before the Adam Buxton podcast, let's not forget, because it comes up in the chat, he did the Adam and Joe podcast, if it was called that, which was based on his radio show that he did on Six Music.

So he really is a podcasting OG. So we recorded this in person on a hot summer day. We jump in just as Adam comes into the studio. It's got a slightly different feel to some of the other chats. It's kind of our end of term show. So it's a bit more freewheeling, less journalistic, go with the flow, and fun also a quick clarification we speak a bit about january 6th in relation to ariel pink the avant-garde musical artist and just to be clear we're talking about the trump rally in washington as opposed to the storming of the capital that took place on the same day that might be a legal legal disclaimer, I'm not sure. Just to warn you, there is the strongest of language used in the episode, some adult themes, some insufferable podcast chat. There's a lot of silliness. I think the

name of Elon Musk is taken in vain. Some jokes at his expense, which aren't to be taken too seriously. All of that and much, much more coming up. Here he is. How you doing, man? How you doing, man? Good to see you. Good to see you, sweaty heart. Quite warm out there, isn't it? Yeah, brother.

Do you need anything? I'm just going to change my shirt. Do whatever you need to do. I've got my retro 90s shirt. I like it. My fun-loving criminal shirt. It's quite sort of smash mouth. The guy who died, did you read about him? No! What did he die of? It was basically long-term liver damage due to alcohol.

Oh mate. Yeah it was quite heavy, 56 years old. I read up on it. I find that interesting. People who are roughly our age or you know and for whom the alcohol use is catching up with them. Right, okay. Should I close this? Well, yes. Yes, if you're ready to run the roll. Are you ready? Yeah, sure. Thank you for doing the podcast.

Hey, thanks for having me. You took a break from podcasting, right? Yeah, for the first part of 2023, had a hiatus because... But then you broke the break. Break, broke, broke, broke, break. You broke the break to do Tom Hanks. Yeah, so I broke the break. Break, broke, broke, broke, break. You broke the break to do Tom Hanks. Yeah, so I broke the break.

Then you broke it back again. I broke the break to do Tom Hanks and then I dropped a live episode that you and I did the year before to try and salve the wounds from the Tom Hanks episode. Are you happy to talk about that on air? I don't think that's recognized as a debacle.

No, I'm joking. No disrespect, Tom. I know he listens. Tom Hanks, big fan of my podcast and yours. Every now and again, a name of that magnitude is dangled in front of a podcaster like myself. Yeah. Presumably because you... I love that we're talking about this.

Because I know, you know that we were offered him. Yes, I know you were offered him. And you told me in this incredibly mealy-mouthed way a while afterwards when I was complaining about the encounter. I was saying, oh, it's difficult with Tom Hanks. And I could see you twitching away. I've never twitched in my life. Sure enough, after a couple of minutes,

yeah, we were offered him actually. Oh, turned him down. Oh, yeah. The thing was, when people do an impression of me, I always sound like a Muppet. Oh, I've got a voice up here. I was spending time in the world of podcasters.

That was KVAD Novak's one, wasn't it? Yeah. I listened to that one yesterday. Are you okay? He goes for the quiet one. I quite like that, the whispery Louis.

Are you okay? I actually thought it was very good. For listeners of the louis through podcast who haven't heard that episode of the adam buxton podcast it's very funny it's very funny and i thought i didn't listen for a long time because i thought it's going to be too painful hearing myself impersonated not just once but almost like it's a leitmotif through the show every without any forewarning he just drops into it. Are you okay?

I was with Adam Buxton finding out he seemed rather tense and I found out he hadn't ejaculated for more than two weeks. Are you okay? This is the world of meta-modern podcasting. Louis Theroux doing an impression of Kay Van Novak doing an impression of Louis Theroux. I was coming near the end of my time doing my impression of Kay Van theroux i was coming near the end of my time doing my

impression of k van novak impersonating me but i wondered if you'd really caught my essence that's what it sounds does that sound like me yeah no that was a good impression you are a good impressionist i told you i was impressed by the voices you did on your audio book you know it lightened things things when stories of domestic strife were getting a bit painful. You start with, I went to meet the Ku Klux Klan. What are you doing, Louis?

Shut up. Okay, these are my English peas. And you're like, that should be fine. And then you get a bit further in, like, and I rolled up and there he was, the aging DJ. Now, then, now, then. You're like, okay, I guess this is all right.

You keep going. And then suddenly I'm doing stories in Africa, in a township. Yeah. We want to burn him. And then I'm like, oh, now I'm on thin ice. Yeah. How far can I go with the accents?

There was a surprising level of animosity. Surprising to me. Maybe unsurprising to others from some quarters. Really? Saying they were offensive. Really? I think so. What, you just can't do accents? Is that the thing? Well, I don't know. surprising to others from some quarters really about the saying they were offensive really what you just can't do accents is that the thing well i don't know surprising in the sense that there was one comment i read i mean i understand the objections to the african one because that's

obvious that's like everyone got that memo you can't do that yeah you can't do i mean it's basically it's fairly crude isn't it but I can't go through having done everyone else and then suddenly I'm an African. That's what everyone else has to do. And the woman came up to me and said, we would like to burn him. Yeah, I'm afraid that's just what you have to do, I think. If you're a sort of white bloke

and you're doing a load of accents, you can do other people from your cohort or Australians. Yeah. I think they're the only ones who don't take offense as far as I can tell. I've never been criticized for doing a grotesque Australian accent. I think they're the only ones who don't take offense as far as I can tell. I've never been criticized for doing a grotesque Australian accent. I have. Have you?

Well, I was doing a corporate once and I was saying like, and then I met, I can't remember what the context was, and Nick Cave said to me, it wasn't Nick Cave, but I'll make it Nick Cave because I interviewed him for the podcast. All right, mate, can I tell you what it is yet? Can you tell me? Maybe it was Rolf Harris. Let's make it Rolf Harris. Nick Cave or R's better yeah one of the two they're entertaining oh mate i don't know mate i'm doing a terrible one right now i think it was better at the time

but the guy in the audience was australian said oh thanks for your terrible australian accent that was pretty offensive he sounds like he's from new zealand that guy maybe he was that's exactly what he sounded like we started with k van novak yeah well i tell you i'll tell you where we got derailed it was tom hanks is the thing you actually want to ask me about i was talking about because i feel like you're hosting now i'm gonna well it's bound to be that way but um then we spoke about t. Hanks. Hanks. So you took a break from podcasting. You came back because you were offered Hanks. I turned it down.

I'm trying not to be mealy-mouthed. I said, no. When I was told you only get an hour, and I'm precious about, it's really just thinking, I don't think I can work my magic such as it is in an hour. The whole notion for me of podcasting is the idea that you're not constrained and it's you get you know rambles as you know better than anyone are built into it and if you can't ramble if you can't have those weird little bits that you think he's never said before and it just made me nervous I thought that I'm being set up to fail and then

my team I hope I can say this without dobbing them in, but they were like, you said what? When they heard that, I said, no, I don't think so. The feeling in the room was you're a moron because- Because it's an open goal. One of the biggest movie stars of all time and famously likable, affable, genial, friendly, good value, a good talker, a funny guy, lots of anecdotes. Lots to say. So I was thinking all those things. I was thinking, this is a massive open goal.

And then my brain started whirring like, I think we're going to get on pretty well. I think he's going to like me. So being offered him, you thought this is a no-brainer. Yeah. You didn't have a moment's hesitation. I mean, you know, there's always a moment's hesitation obviously this is a dangerous conversation to have because it's gonna well maybe it'll incur fury from the tom hanks people and put other people off but this is the reality that everyone doesn't really speak about is of course you have you kind

of um and ah about it. I don't think that sounds dismissive. You um and ah because you want to bring your A game and- Yeah, you want to do the best job. And you think normally I get, when we've spoken on your podcast, it's never been less than, well, the first time it was, but less than 90 minutes. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. We allow for that. It's going to be a couple of hours. Exactly. So your hesitation wouldn't be Hanks based, they would be based on yeah yeah yeah am i

going to have enough time am i going to have enough time but also is he just going to be in the right frame of mind especially as it's a zoom one and in the end you know a lot of my anxieties came true he was in kind of literary interview mode. He was promoting this book he'd written, a novel, no less. And I think maybe he hadn't really heard the podcast. I'm fairly sure he hadn't. And thought that he was going to be interviewed by some kind of high-end Melvin Bragg type figure talking about his book, just asking him basic interview questions. And then he would go off and monologue the answers. And after the first 10 minute monologue, I was thinking, Oh, how am I going to show him that I want it to be more conversational without

kind of offending him? Because recorded remotely. Yeah. Which doesn't help. Because at the same time, it's like I'm sort of starstruck as well, you know. Of course. It's Tom Hanks. I absolutely love a lot of his films. Castaway is one of my favorite films. Yeah. I recommend other people's podcasts where he talks about Castaway because he was such a big part of putting that together with Robert Zemeckis.

And I effing love it. Zemeckis and I effing love it anyway so as he's sort of going on about writing in a way that is not especially conversational and also he's looking off camera on the zoom so that connection is you know which is so hard to establish remotely anyway is doubly hard when the person isn't looking at you so it was just kind of frustrating was it well received because sometimes you do those and then you put them out and then everyone's like oh that was great what are you talking about it was mixed with it with someone as well known as him you get an unusually high number of listeners so a good proportion of those were perfectly happy and i got lots of emails hey nice one wow you got tomanks, that kind of thing. But then people came up to me and I did a thing at the podcast festival earlier this year in Islington.

And a couple of people came up and they were like, what happened with Tom Hanks? Really? Yeah. It wasn't that bad. What would be in their heads, I wonder? I think they know me. They know what I'm like. They get in my head and they know I'm going to be overthinking it.

I'm going to be overly respectful. I'm going to be nervous. And they feel all that for me, you know. Right. And so then it makes them squirm. It's a little bit like my wife. My wife. Sarah.

And so then it makes them squirm. It's a little bit like my wife. My wife. Sarah. She doesn't like seeing any of my shows or listening to the podcast or anything like that because she knows me. She lives in my head. The one I felt for you, I can't believe we're talking about your greatest misses. The one I felt for you was the Sarah Silverman one.

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because you were having technical, it was purely technical difficulties. The Zoom was dropping out. All kinds of stuff. And you'd done some research and you had this concept. Loads.

I'd done loads of research. I'd read every book. She's written several books. I'd read all the books. You were overprepared. Oh, man. And I could see you had your little trail of bread crumbs you were trying to follow and then other forces force majeure got in the way

so you were doing your little intricate bit and then sorry what was that and then you lost confidence in your premise yeah you've done it in the form of a Q&A or something. Oh, I forgot about it. I blocked that out with the help of my therapist. The reality is almost too awful to contemplate. I will say for context, I think this was 2021 or even maybe 2020. The world was a very different place. The world was a different place. And we were all traumatized.

Also, I was genuinely traumatized because my mom had died only a few months before. And I was sort traumatized. Also, I was genuinely traumatized because my mom had died only a few months before. And I was sort of mad. I think I went through a long period where I just felt crazy and unhappy. And that interview happened in that period. And I think I'd got into the habit of drinking quite a lot of cognac around the time. Convinced myself that cognac was my new favorite thing. I'm still in that phase. It's not cognac. So I had a little shot of cognac before the interview with Sarah. Oh no, I wouldn't do that.

That's how confident I was that it was going to just be great. What was your bit that you heard? What was the bit? Is there something she does? It was a format that she uses and you thought, Oh yeah, yeah. Well remembered. She does a podcast where she plays messages from listeners and so i had put together a series of kind of fake listener messages that i delivered in different accents that were supposed to be kind of a parody i just thought this is win win win i'm doing funny character bits but it's also kind of a parody of the things that you know messages that listeners might send into a show like hers. But there are also actual questions that I want her to come back on. Oh my God, maybe I'm too

good at this. Maybe I should just stop doing this and give other people a chance because I am smashing it left, right and center here. And then I just massively lost my bottle immediately and couldn't do the accents as soon as i started doing the first thing it was just like oh this is obviously such a bad idea i remember the premise seemed slightly complicated and then so she's trying to you know boogie down with it yeah but then she was really generous and at the point where um it might have clicked then you had technical problems and she couldn't hear you. Yes. And then it was like, oh, shit.

And that's the stuff we kept in. Gee, so there was more of that. Oh, yeah. Seamus, my producer friend, is a genius at smoothing things out. And that was the smoothed version. Wow. Yeah. Do you think everyone knows who she is, don't they?

American comedian. She was in the Larry Sanders show as a writer back in the day. She's one of the greatest woman American comedians of a certain generation, came up with that Louis C.K. cohort of comics and very edgy. Edgy, political. Yeah. And was one of the kind of vanguard of foul-mouthed, shocking woman comics who were talking about being a woman in ways that people weren't really used to in the tradition of Joan Rivers, but a much harder edged version. was really interested to talk to her about how in recent years she has, as some people seen it, drunk the woke Kool-Aid and gone quite a long way to sort of walking back some of her more extreme statements and qualifying some of her positions and saying, no, I wouldn't really say that stuff now, while still living and being happy with a lot of the things she said. I mean, still living and being happy with a lot of the things she said.

She exemplifies a kind of queasy line that a lot of us progressive, liberal, edgy, edgitarians. Yeah, she was progressive edgy, pushing the boundaries, using language that was close to the line, whether it was sexual or racial. And then now what is she? Is she more careful about what she says? I think she is. Yeah, I is she is she more careful about what she says i think she is yeah i think she is okay the first thing that came to mind when you said that was thinking about the 90s and political comedy and the way in which it was almost like there was this sort of big tent progressivism embodied by people like sarah silverman and i suppose janine garofalo and vice magazine

and how strange it is that you know it was about pushing buttons and pushing boundaries and things that now would be viewed as deeply offensive it was the American version of that kind of 90s edgy British comedy like Loaded etc and maybe Frankie Boyle yeah maybe and the sort of baseline assumption was obviously we all know sexism is bad racism is bad obviously those we don't even need to say that anymore because we're all on the same page so given that here are some things that we know you oughtn't to say and all right and we're parodying it or it's ironic. And I find that whole Vice magazine culture incredibly interesting, how it spawned both the progressive, super-sensitive left-wing,

however you characterize that progressive cultural approach, but then also birthed Gavin McInnes and the alt-right and the Proud Boys and the aggressive sort of trendy right. You know, and trendy in the sense of they kind of bizarrely have hipster signifiers many of these alt-right guys yeah a lot of them growing out from 4chan and 8chan and places like that yeah troll culture and super ironic troll culture yeah and the fact that someone like the eagles of death metal were or are trump supporters and there was a time when ariel pink as well ariel pink was that there wasn't he actually at jan 6 i think he's suffering some consequences from it this is a sort of uh indie american

musician listeners if you're not familiar and about i think 2020, I was looking at stuff online about things that Ariel Pink had said and thought, oh, okay. He's kind of pissed a few people off saying some thoughtless things about women or whatever and has not enjoyed the backlash. And rather than apologize or rethink, he's kind of one of those people who's gone, fuck it, I'll just go even further. He came to the UK, did a show in london did were you there no and outraged people because he went on stage and said i'm the rock jimmy saville right so maybe i'm giving him too much credit to uh think that he had any moment of pause about oh maybe i should apologize or maybe i should be a bit more thoughtful i think he was always one of those kind of people anyone who goes on stage and says i'm the rock jimmy salvo they're just trying to push buttons yeah right that's right and that's what rock and roll used

to be about right you used to be able to push buttons in a way that everyone was like oh that's rock and roll and only the stuffy old conservatives and your parents would go well this is disgraceful yeah and town sid vicious going around with a swastika on right uh-huh walking through jewish areas i think yeah what about i think iggy pop has been asked about lyrics that seemed to endorse sex with underage girls oh yeah that no when was that maybe last year in the new york times but uh again you know he is from he's from like the 50s even not even the 60s that's what rock was like then you know you had these people like jerry lee lewis who were totally beyond the pale yeah and he was out and out racist as well and you know but everyone was

focused on oh it's the rocker look he's playing the piano with his foot um well i think he got called out even at the time like that was a scandal even then yeah whether um iggy pop caused waves then there's almost like a way off track here but we'll go with it okay there's a rippling like do we have a problem with bowie kind of conversation happening are you aware of that yeah yeah when he died i became aware of the story of him touring america with the spiders for aladdin's sane so early 70s when bowie would have been 27 thereabouts and well maybe a bit younger maybe he was like 24 and I think he spent a night with one of the GTOs the girls together outrageously who were a bunch

of groupies and the whole culture was let's track down as many big rock stars as we can and bed them and then write about it often in cream magazine but some of these girls were as young as 13, I think. But you know, I know a lot of other Bowie fans who couldn't get beyond it. Really? Yeah. When you listen to someone's music, you're not endorsing their morals. So I'm always surprised when people bail on artists in that way. Like, I think Michael Jackson was a child molester, and I've spoken about that repeatedly. I still listen to his music and R. Kelly.

I still love R. Kelly's music. I suppose it depends on what kind of relationship you have with the artist, i.e. which part of them is important to you. And if it's just the music, I always think of Van Morrison as the example i always use to make the distinction i couldn't give a fuck about van morrison as a person i've only ever heard stories about him being a massive bellend but that music is so important to me and somehow it is possible for can i do a legal and other view van morrison denies being a massive bell end and i don't think that's legally actionable but i do have a dream of having van morrison on the podcast i'd love to interview van morrison i'd love to van if you're listening other views of van morrison are also available

anyway i love the guy right i i would be so sad if Van Morrison didn't exist, but I'm not invested in him as a personality, as a person. I don't care what he's done in his personal life. With Bowie, it was different. There was always something I cared about with him as a person. He seemed like someone that I would get on with. I've no idea if I ever, I've met him in a corridor once. But I just liked where he was coming from. Interview after interview made me think, yeah, I like you. Plus, I was beguiled by his personal charms. I loved the way he looked and sort of fancied him when I was getting into him and had the posters all over my walls.

You fancied him. Am I going to just let that go, do you think? Well, I mean, didn't you ever fancy... I suppose I would have thought he was a beautiful man. Yeah. But not like you would have a Tommy Tank thinking about him. No, but that's only one way of fancying someone. Fancying someone doesn't always end with Tommy.

Right, I guess we needed to clear that up. But you said fancy and that's erotic that's not aesthetic is it i think so okay fair enough but would you i loved him mind yourself thinking about his nipples and no no and also i didn't get turned on when i first saw the man who fell to earth and you see his his todger his jolly roger his little his lodger um he's laughing no i didn't like seeing his little fellow on um his weird chap the man who fell to earth you didn't like it no no i wasn't that wasn't what i was invested in i liked his face i imagined kissing his face. How about that? Did you?

Yeah. I thought I could kiss that face. Could or would like to. Would like to, I think. God. All that goes last 25 minutes. I'm Louis Theroux, and you're listening to the Louis Theroux Podcast. And now, back to my conversation with Adam Buxton.

Let's take a step back. Okay. It's a strange and amazing journey we've been on in many ways, and I was thinking about many things before approaching the interview. You know, for listeners who don't know, we were at school together. So we've known each other since we were both around 13 or 14 years old. And then we've been friends more or less ever since. And then, I mean, through the years of you doing your shows, like Takeover TV, the Adam and joe show and then doing radio and then the podcast obviously i've been there in the wings in different capacities and the first episode of your podcast i was on and i was listening to it on the way in this morning oh yeah how did it hold up

well you're excellent in it i i didn't enjoy hearing myself very much. We were talking about buffet etiquette. Yeah. It was September 2015 and it went out. It went out. We recorded it the year before in Los Angeles when I was visiting. And I thought nothing of it because you said, I'm doing some audio bits. I don't know what I'm going to do with them. So I guess my question is, you know, you're now a kind of nationally, internationally beloved podcaster. And would you say podcasting is what you do? Is that your job? Internationally beloved podcaster. Is that what you do?

Is that what you do? Can you do it now? Why did you feel the need to go? That was me dropping into my impersonation myself. Yeah. Are you okay? So you're transitioning from blowing smoke up my ass to doing impressions. I thought my question was really awkward. I kind of, I thought my question

was really awkward and I thought maybe it'll feel less awkward if I impersonate myself. I'm delighted with that. I'll take it. And what was the question again? I guess it's just, uh, how did that come about? It seemed like, um, 10 years ago you were a job in comedian, TV presenter, you weren't a podcaster now. And when it started, Phil, this is something you're doing kind of on the side, kind of. Well, I was a podcaster, of course, because myself and Joe Cornish had started doing a podcast in 2006, early days. The only people around at that point who were doing a podcast that anyone had heard about, and most people were not familiar with the concept of podcasting, was Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant. And they had started doing a podcast of their XFM show.

And when they went off to do the second series of The Office, me and Joe depped for them on Saturday afternoons on XFM. And we talked to Carl Pilkington before we started doing the show. And Carl gave us some pointers. I think he was keen for the slot to be filled in a way that was not going to make them look bad. Well, they didn't want you to be too good or too bad? Too bad, I think. Right, but there's risks in both directions. Yes.

But not for them. I suppose they were so successful with that, weren't they? People loved that. People loved it. And I think they already had really avid followers who were into certain aspects of the show so i think carl was just like here are some things i think you should probably avoid given the kind of people that will be listening right and when he heard my suggestions for all the uh bits that i was thinking of doing because i was wanting to pre-prepare a lot of stuff bring in pre-recorded segments have a lot of uh fairly high concept which is quite you in a way yeah yeah you started like sometimes over preparing yeah and that's because i'm just anxious about being myself i'm not confident enough to just talk in the way that Ricky and Steven would, for example.

You feel, of course, it's a reassuring, it's a safety net. It's a sense that, well, I've got all my ducks in a row. This will be fine. I got my bits. And it's exactly the approach that I take when I'm on panel shows now, which I don't do very often. But if I go on 8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown, I go in Dictionary Corner, where you are allowed to prep your bits and in fact they encourage you to prep these little two three minute bits and I don't have to sit there on the panel being funny and trying to think of stuff off the top of my head which I'm not that good at I disagree I mean that's obviously not the case because you are very funny yeah but for whatever reason I heard

you being funny 15 20 minutes ago no No, but I'm comfortable with you. If I'm live on air or if I'm in front of TV cameras or whatever, then everything short circuits. So that confidence that a lot of good comedians have, I never really had. So I always wanted to bring in bits, have things prepared. And, you know, I enjoyed the process of preparing them as well. I felt like that's where my strengths lay. But Carl pilkington said no don't do that don't do those pre-prepared bits because people can hear how much work you've put into it and they don't like it i think that's true isn't it don't you i do and i don't i do think like if a bit's good, if you've prepped a funny sketch, then that's fine.

That's, that's golden. That's true. But I also appreciate where Carl was coming from, which is what we've just said, really, that you're, the audience can hear you. It's the texture. Compensate. Don't you think? Yeah. Yeah. What you want is the, the natural interplay and the banter. But that's the other thing is that I wasn't confident that Joe and me had that in that way. Our relationship was never that kind of bantery relationship. We didn't tease each other like that. Did we? Joe did. Like Joe is a natural tease. Yeah, but maybe he just didn't like being teased himself. Maybe he didn't like it back. But he definitely, I see him as very much in that teasing. Yeah, okay. Also, I think there's a self-consciousness that I always had about

being kind of too well-spoken to do that kind of thing. It would feel a bit fraudulent. It's like I'm an ex-public schoolboy. And I think what happens is that my kind of conservative upbringing kicks in and i just think it's impolite to butt in really yeah to speak up to interrupt to you know say something loudly and confidently it feels to me on some level like something my parents would have disapproved of that's not how you should behave just shut up let the other person speak you know that kind of thing we should say by the way so xfm is a london radio station yeah playing alternative music started out being like the bastion of indie

music stuff that wouldn't be played anywhere else a bit like six music is i guess yeah so carl says don't do that so then you did it and but my recollection is that you were a huge success. And I remember hearing you and Joe on the XFM and thinking, wow, like they've really found the most perfect medium for their gifts together. Even more than the Adam and Joe show, which was, you know, for those who don't know, a homemade show that was on channel four in which you made amazing sketches, but it had a sort of diy aesthetic yeah but it was so painstakingly teased together that it didn't actually allow you to unself consciously riff with each other no not really it was all heavily constructed very constructed so it was beautiful and the sketches were amazing but you didn't see the natural repartee that you

were capable of whereas in the because the audio space is so unforced and you have the kind of sense of the time and space to just talk about random stuff and ephemera. It felt to me as soon as I heard it, I thought this is, this is perfect. That's nice of you to say, but I would guess that that was probably a bit later on when we first started on XFM, it was often awkward. And because I was so uncomfortable, and I've spoken before about the time when we were, we had a big row because Joe would man the computer and he would see all the messages coming in. People would text the show and he would just read out all the really negative ones. You and I spoke about this on the live podcast that we did. Go on, you say it again, though. Well, the killer one was, why don't you two infantile cunts shut up and play some music? Which made us laugh before.

It always makes me laugh when I recall it. But it really stuck in my head and it just i'm just insecure enough that that that fells me rather than making me laugh in the moment it just got to me and i was like don't read that out why are you reading that out that's not gonna help the banter so i got in a real mood about it and then then we had a huge row and joe was like you know calm down and i was like you calm down why you always do it you know i took it personally and everything and we had a big old row and joe was like i think i'm gonna leave and because he felt you'd overreacted yeah because i'd suddenly gone so massively ballistic about don't read out the

infantile cunts text it wasn't like it was directed at you either it was at both of you right yeah yeah so funny but then the thing that changed everything in my mind was the podcast and we were told after we'd been doing the show off and on for a couple of years, like, you know, you can do a podcast version. We're like, what's that? And they said, well, you can just chop up bits of the live show and put it out for people. They can download it on their computer and listen to it like a little bonus radio show. I sort of thought, what the hell is the point of that? No one's ever going to do that.

But then I thought, actually actually that would be quite fun and that would give me another opportunity to kind of further manage your perfectionism yeah could come into play i could cut it up control freakery is really what it was and i could cut the awful bits out of the live show and keep the funny bits and even better we could record bonus bits as well when we were off air and when I was much more relaxed. So we ended up putting out about 20 podcasts, I think varying in length from about 10 minutes to about half an hour and put

out a kind of best of 2006. I think it was the term podcast is a portmanteau of ipod and broadcast there you go with the earliest use everyone you could work that out couldn't you doesn't take a genius baffled me with the earliest use traced to journalist ben hammersley who used it in a guardian article in february 2004 so a scant two years before you took to the medium yes you're a pioneer you were out there like like like ricky gervais and steven merchant stanley and livingston i was gonna say exploring the african interior that's offensive colonialist reference yeah like armstrong and aldrin and miller on the moon

yes and then were you conscious did you cross paths with r and Stephen? Not physically. I worked with Stephen around that time. Mentally? Mentally. I was envious. Spiritually? I liked their show. They used to play really good music as well.

The cliche, the scuttlebutt, the rumor, the received wisdom at the time was, oh my God, have you heard how much Ricky and Stephen are making on that podcast? Oh yeah. They've charged one pound to download. That's right. And they've made 40 million pounds. Yeah. That's not the actual figure, but do you remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think there's any truth in that? Yes. I don't think it was millions, but certainly they were the first people to charge for a podcast as far as I'm aware. And yeah, you were thinking, God, even if only a couple of thousand people download that, it's worth it. That's amazing. But I was always very keen that we wouldn't do that.

Not that it was ever raised as a possibility. So did it feel like at that time, this is a great new way of working? This will be my main thing now? Or just did it feel like just another project well i mean it definitely felt like another project at the time because it was at the end of a few years of me and joe kind of being a bit directionless and not knowing what we were going to do after the adam and joe show and we did bits and pieces on tv on bbc3 and channel 4 but nothing really coherent and we were a bit rudderless. But

the thing that happened after the XFM show was that we got a gig on BBC Six Music, first of all, filling in for Sean Keaveney when he was on holiday. And then we ended up doing a Saturday afternoon show there for about three or four years. And that was kind of the most successful thing we ever did in terms of connecting with an audience and winning awards and all that shit. So that happened at Six Music. How did you get scooped up? Why did XFM not say,

okay, stick with us and we'll give you more money and make it bigger? Yeah, good question. I have no idea. But anyway, the BBC came calling and it felt like... It said, we've heard you on XFM and we like the podcast. The podcast was the thing that I think changed things. And then we started doing the show on six music. And I remember thinking, well, we'll definitely do a podcast of that. And I think we did a few shows without a podcast when we started in 2000, the end of 2007. But then as soon as we could in 2008, we started putting a podcast out of that. And I think that was the thing that sort of

connected with people in a way that we hadn't done before. I think certainly I liked it. Like I liked the version of me and Joe on their best of all, I felt like this is us at our best a lot of the time. Yeah. And it may be in hindsight, I'm slightly eliding the XFM and the six music and the pod, but I remember thinking, I just loved it. I loved that show. And, um, it felt like people who might not have been aware of your work before might not have watched the Adam and Joe show. Uh, suddenly everyone was dialed into that. Hmm. Good. Anyway, after the six music show stopped, I kind of took a bit of a hiatus. And I think I felt like I couldn't carry on podcasting without Joe, because I just wouldn't be able to make it worthwhile. And when I recorded with you in 2014, that was me kind of experimenting like, well,

maybe I could talk to other friends or other people. So Joe sort of peeled off. Was there any talk of, um, he was doing his film. He was doing attack the block. If he wasn't doing that, could you have continued or he wasn't so into it? No, I think he was into it, but I think, I think six music were into it, right? They would have liked you to continue. Yeah, definitely. I think he was too busy. Attack the Block came out in 2011. He was promoting it solidly for a year or so.

And then he kind of moved on to his next project fairly quickly. And I felt for my own self-respect, I had to kind of plow on alone, I think. I always remember John Ronson, a mutual friend of ours who we love very much and admire very much but he was doing a radio show at the time which i really loved called john ronson on anyway i think i'm right in saying that he wanted to do an episode about kind of marginal figures or people who had kind of dropped off the radar or the implication was when he approached me like do you want to talk about being totally overshadowed by joe's success john wouldn't be that crass he wasn't that crass and it wasn't put in those terms at all but that's what i took from it's what you heard it was like do you want to talk about hoping with

a friend's success kind of thing well i think it was more like being a marginal figure you know what i mean so it was like it was a celebration of life in the margins but what i was hearing in the state that i was in was like oh do you want to chat about how you've been totally overshadowed by joe who's now fulfilling the dreams that you both had because we both wanted to make movies together at one point. And suddenly Joe had managed to realize that ambition in a spectacular way with this brilliant film. And I was like, what am I doing? I'm just piddling about. We'd just moved to Norfolk. Our children were young. And so suddenly I was isolated. I was out in the country. It's like, what the hell am I doing? What am I doing in a beautiful house within a wonderful

family? But that hurt even more. Do you know what I mean? Like, how am I going to explain this in a way that makes sense and doesn't sound like just sort of privileged moaning, but it hurt even more that I could be so pathetically insecure about my career while my children were young and while I was living this fantasy privileged life. Yeah, I was so lucky I had everything that most people could dream of. And yet I was just thinking, no, Joe's doing a film and he's done really well. And what am I doing? And people think that I'm a failure and they want me to go and talk about being a failure on a radio show and the fact that i was thinking those things just john's thing right it wasn't as though there was a fusillade of offers coming in hey we're doing a special about

people have been eclipsed by their peers yeah now occupying the where are they now file. Yeah, well, I mean, there would just be sort of comments. I think that that's the way I was processing everything. Which incidentally, in any, I know you're not, you and Joe aren't a double act,

but I could see why you might at that time have been perceived as one. And in that, it's almost a truism of show business that when there is a double act or when there's a partnership that there's going to be a lot of rivalry and disequilibrium that's going to be complicated yeah it just i didn't deal with it very well but then anyway a few years went by and i felt

comfortable enough to have another crack at the podcasting thing and found my feet after a few episodes and people were very encouraging and it was great getting you on that first episode, which also featured my dad, who had just been diagnosed with cancer at that point. No way. Yeah. And that following year, he came and lived with us in norfolk and while you know to kind of take my mind off dealing with him i was thinking okay let's do this podcast was there a point where you realized actually this will not only be something i continue to do but actually will be my main thing and well i I suppose once I got a sponsor.

Right. When did that happen? That happened, I think, after about 10 episodes or so. I went and joined the ACAST platform. But your ads are all homemade, aren't they? Yeah, I prefer to make the ads myself because when I'm listening to podcasts, I don't like listening to a, the host read. That was the thing about Mark Maron. I never liked Mark Maron. Yeah. American podcast got me into him.

Yeah. It was when he would change gear suddenly in the middle of one of his confessional rants and start talking about me undies. The host read, which non-professionals may not know is the term for when a podcast host does a paid advert, but just as it were, as part of their hosting duties. You know, here I am. And by the way, Adam, I just want to mention for a second, I'm wearing some very comfortable underwear. Yeah, exactly. Who does the worst host reads? I mean, I kind of love Malcolm Gladwell and his books and his podcasts. host reads i mean i i kind of love malcolm gladwell and his books and his podcasts but his host reads because he's a sort of serious new yorker writer guy feel even somehow they feel

even more mercenary yeah i just never wanted to do that sincere change of gear thing and i also felt that it would be great if the ads weren't burned into the show, i.e. weren't part of the actual episode. And the great thing about the way ACAST does it, and maybe other platforms, is that they tag on the adverts. This sounds like a post-read for ACAST. For ACAST. They've treated me very well over the years, Louie. And what ACAST does, and their unique formula of what they can offer. They've been good to me. The ads are movable, so no ad has to slot into a particular episode.

Even old episodes can acquire new ads as they're monetized, meaning you make bank. So you know that old fatigue you used to have when a host read was burned into an episode? Not a problem with Acast. I if spotify gonna get annoyed so yeah i have a good time making ads that i hope are somewhat entertaining very entertaining and it's sort of fun it's like i can try out characters there and do little bits of music and they work as sketches some of them are mini sketches and i remember the first time i heard the squarespace one i was like is he taking the piss out of squarespace and he's like no i think it's an ad squarespace are good at giving you quite a bit of latitude they get it i think plus i genuinely you know i use squarespace i use it to build my podcast. I use it to build my website.

You're advertising on my podcast. I feel like I'm being punked. You're coming on my podcast, advertising your sponsors? Yeah. Oh, for fuck's sake. Use the offer code Buxton for 10% off at Squarespace. Jesus Christ. It's all gone wrong. I knew this was a problem. He's hijacked. He's out-hosted me. I knew this was a problem. He's hijacked. He's out-hosted me. But at a certain point, I thought, what is the point?

What am I doing this for? Am I going to be someone who is spending all their time trying to think of ways to maximize the popularity of the podcast? Am I going to start stressing about putting out episodes every week at the same time, week in, week out regularly, which is of course the best way to attract and grow an audience. Am I going to start engaging with social media and doing pictures and Instagram videos and thinking of every way I possibly can to grow the listenership? And I did a bit of that in a fairly half-hearted way. Right. I've seen you released some with some sort of video accompaniment, some clips on YouTube. Yeah, maybe little clips.

But then fairly quickly, I realized like, no, I'm going to concentrate on the actual episodes and make those as good as possible. And just trust that there will be a core of listeners who will come back to it. Why? Why did I not want to? Yeah, why didn't you want to turbocharge and work the algorithms? Because why? What's the end game?

To get as big as possible, to make big... I mean, I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here, to get as big as possible. More money, more listeners. But why? More chicks. As far as I can tell, having listened to... Clicks. Clicks and chicks.

What did it sound like I said? Clicks and chicks. That's the name of my new podcast. But, you know, I've read enough rock biographies and heard the stories of enough successful people. You feared too much success. To know that what happens is things are good for a while, then they get too big, and then it all goes off the boil

because you take your eye off the ball. You forget about the thing that people connected with in the first place. The top five podcasts in the UK. The rest is politics. The rest is money is number one. I guess whenever this poll was taken or whatever it is. Joe Rogan, number two. The rest is football, number three.

Wow. Diary of a CEO. Wow, that's big. With Stephen Bartlett. Have you heard of that one? Yeah, I've watched a few of those. You see, I watch those. Have you been on it?

No. Maybe I was asked like years ago when it was first starting. He's been savvy with various promotional metrics. Yeah. I mean, he is across absolutely everything you could possibly do to maximize the reach and the growth of a podcast. And it's sort of exhausting in a way. the growth of a podcast.

And it's sort of exhausting in a way. I find it exhausting just to watch one of his trailers, which are all brilliantly produced. But I think he must have a team, like quite a big team. And when you go there, because I've been on it, it's a bit like turning up on a TV show. It was at his flat in Shoreditch, but downstairs it's all kitted out like a studio.

And there was like six or seven people at least, all sort of standing around in hushed tones. And Stephen Bartlett wasn't there. And I was like, okay, yes, welcome. And then there's a moment when Stephen arrives, and then you sit down, and then... When Stephen arrives, you need to sit down. Don't look him in the eye. He hates it.

Stephen hates it when you look at him in the eye. It throws him right off. So don't do in the eye don't look in me hates it steven hates it when you look at him in the eye it throws him right off so don't do that please uh steven will ask you some very penetrating questions if you do find yourself looking at steven it's fine it's fine he won't get cross it's just that maybe just say sorry and then look away. I regret the voice that I started using. Whose voice is that? I don't know. It's just someone who's working for Stephen Bartlett. And they say, Stephen might make you cry. If Stephen makes you cry, just don't worry about it.

It's great. It's great when you cry. And it will get edited into the trailer. Stephen will also ask you to be stephen will also ask you if you think that free speech has gone down the plug hole because of woke if you've got any good stuff on woke could you could you say that you've watched everyone does woke do they i don't. I don't even use that word. I don't know if Stephen Bartlett does woke or not.

He's very thoughtful and sensitive. But I think he does stray into those areas. I think from the point of view of maximizing the crossover potential of the podcast, he is going to want to talk about some of those culture wars things because it's evident that they do massively well elsewhere you know people who were perhaps part of that so-called intellectual dark web at one point dave rubin and those big hosts in the u.s brett weinstein and who's the fellow the little animated goblin um ben shapiro i need more than Ben Shapiro. But in terms of global podcasts, Ben Shapiro is number six. Shut up, is he?

Top ten podcasts globally. Oh, my God. Hit me with that. Number one is, of course. Adam Buxton podcast. Yep. By Adam Buxton podcast, you mean the Joe Rogan experience. Estimated average of 11 million listeners per episode.

Fucking hell. That's loads. We don't use that kind of language. Sorry. I'm so sorry. Number two. Let me see if I can give you a clue. Huh.

Huh. Oh, my God. It's This American Life. No, it's not. It's The Daily. Yes. The Daily is... I can't believe it took you a little while to get...

I'm Michael Barbaro. Here's what else you need to know today. He went through a phase of getting all self-conscious about the noises. Did he? Yeah, because... I don't think he... I mean, well, just stop doing them then because they're so weird. His team told him that he was making weird noises that people were commenting about on social media. How do you know he became

self-conscious about it? Because he started tagging on bits in the podcast, like little ads about his team, trying to encourage you to subscribe to the New York Times. And the premise for the ads was like, here's a little bit of bants about Michael's weird noises. So I think he's probably now in that position where he's self-conscious about it, but he knows. Is that weird for you? Is that weird? How does that feel, knowing that people are in your head? Does that make you self-conscious? Does that sound like me? Yeah. I was coming near the end of my time interviewing Adam Buxton on my podcast. But before it was

time to go, I decided I had a couple more questions. Number three is we're going back to top 10 podcasts globally. What's going to be the clue for this one? Best American Life? Oh, man, let me do the bit first. Act one. In this film, that's what I've got. Manthea felt that she was a nobody. She talked to her friends. They said, sure, you're a bit of a nobody, but why is that a problem?

For a while, Manthea didn't know what to do. And then one day, Manthea read an article, and it was all about being a nobody. And Manthea thought, maybe being a nobody's not so bad. At least we got on the podcast. We're talking about... That was very good. You got it. Number three is This American Life.

How many of your competitors are you listening to? Joe Rogan I will listen to from time to time. Oh, yeah. Okay. Sometimes he'll get a guest where you're just not going to hear them in that way anywhere else. My sons like it. Actually, no, one of my sons likes it. And he'd listen or would he watch?

He'd probably watch. I think he's probably watching. And his friends like it. And they, in a very sort of sweetly unguarded way. So we're talking 18 19 year olds i said what do you guys listen to and they said oh yeah joe rogan sometimes i said what do you like about him oh like the conspiracy theorists yeah but i couldn't tell if they like the conspiracy theorists because they think they're funny mad people or because they're buying into

the conspiracy theories? Probably a bit of both, right? And maybe there isn't much difference for them. I remember my kids seeming to go through a phase a few years ago of believing that the Illuminati was a thing. Yes. Right. Are you aware of that? I don't even know quite what it means, but it's like, dad, dad, is that a real thing? The Illuminati? Where are they? I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. The thing is that a real thing the illuminati where are they i'm like i

don't know what you're talking about well the thing is that we probably know a few members of the illuminati is a global alleged global elite yeah of the super rich it's the super rich it's the you know and it obviously very easily crosses over with a load of anti-semitic tropes about who rules the world who are consuming the blood of children that That's part of it too, isn't it? And they've elided an ancient anti-Semitic blood libel with the fact that actually the blood of children can be... Delicious. Possibly that, but definitely injected as a longevity kind of... Elixir.

Yeah, elixir. Wow. You know about this? No. There's a thing on Radio 4 at the moment, and it's probably on BBC Sounds, where they're talking about tech barons and the super rich of the tech world

and how longevity is the new frontier. Yes. And they're attempting to extend their lives and the plasma of children is apparently one of their favorite things. Sure. This is Adam Buxton expressing an opinion here, not the Louis Theroux podcast's opinion,

but I believe that Elon Musk surely has plasma of children shots on a nightly basis with a little bit of tequila, something like that. Don't know. I think that George Soros was the one they said, which I just thought, well, he's the guy they always, people are always promoting anti-Semitic theories and attaching George Soros was the one they said, which I just thought, well, he's the guy they always, people are always promoting anti-Semitic theories and attaching George Soros. We'll put it in the, you know what, either in the show notes or at the end of the episode,

I'll find out whether George Soros, there's anything firm that suggests he's involved with children's plasma, right? I do think that for us to you know we're both globally revered podcast hosts and i think we have a degree of credibility in that sort of non-mainstream non-gate kept space so i think me coming out and saying something either pro or con and attempting to actually deliver a verdict on the truth of this will be like a contribution to the debate like genuinely i think i can finally settle this like is it a crazed anti-semitic conspiracy theory or is there a little bit of truth in here when are you gonna go back to doing your funny docs wow like why couldn't you fold this kind of thing out of nowhere

why couldn't you fold this me of thing? I came out of nowhere. Why couldn't you fold this? You sucked me up and then you sucker punched me. Jesus. Couldn't you go somewhere in between? Where does that anger come from? Because you've talked a lot about being an angry person, but it's only very rarely we see it until it comes out. Is it building up and it just goes, you can't hold it back?

I always love your docs, man. Obviously, you know that I'm being silly when I say that you should only do the funny ones. But you could do both. I felt so much closer to Adam after he said the thing about how much he liked my programs. And I realized I'd been silly. I feel like it turned into, my impression

is becoming someone else it's becoming kermit kermit the podcaster jeez Hi, me again, Louis Theroux. Just to remind you that you're listening to the louis theroux podcast and now back to my conversation with adam buxton can i do one quick thing sure some of the articles about you in the last few years these are the headlines oh no i've been having something of a midlife crisis since my mum died yeah we're in the sad sandwich of life but it has a surprising zing of pickle. I'm worried I'm spiraling. They all sound quite dark, don't they? Yeah. I'm a worrier, Lou. You know that about me. Do you think of me that way?

I do in a way, but I sort of feel like perhaps I don't think of it as being debilitating. I just think of it as being, I worry about stuff too. I sort of think of it as being debilitating. I just think of it as being, I worry about stuff too. I sort of think of it as being what makes you conscientious. I never think of it as a handicap. I sort of think of it as a superpower. Well, I suppose I've incorporated it into my brand. Also spiraling. Spiraling.

I mean, I was spiraling at one point. That was September 2020. Yeah, definitely spiraling then. Post-mum death. Right. In the grip of maximum culture wars, looking at stuff online in the lockdown, reading about Black Lives Matter. Did the culture wars actually affect you? Mentally.

Mentally? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why? Because it made me so anxious. But, you know, because as privileged, white, straight men, we were rightly being encouraged to... Don't include me in this. We were rightly being encouraged to examine where we fitted into this whole thing, a world where marginalized people were saying, actually, is this...

We've had enough. We need a reset. Yeah. And where do I fit into all that? That's true. I remember we talked a bit about it. And you were digging into it and trying to... I almost felt like you took on this responsibility of attempting to umpire the whole debate. Really? Well, it felt like you were trying to find a way through it, almost with some sense that I need to figure this out.

Yeah. Whereas I sort of, I can sort of relate a bit, but it felt to me something like, oh, well, this is just a big cultural belch. Let's not try and find too much logic in it. That's the difference between you and me. I think you're able to see the bigger picture in a way that I sometimes can't. And I get very overwhelmed sometimes by conversations about stuff that seems very seismic and very important, whether it's the climate or transgender issues or whatever it might be. I feel like I have to read about it and get opposing points of view and try and inform myself. But so quickly, I just become totally overwhelmed and just feel like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how I fit into this. What would you need to do? What would doing something look like?

Well, that's the thing. What would it look like? Don't you ever have moments where you're overwhelmed by how trivial your professional life is? I'm not saying that you personally should, but I certainly do. Where you just think, how am I helping? And if I'm not helping, what am I doing? So you felt an obligation to dive in? Yeah, I felt like, well, you know, I feel like I'm on board the progressive bus, but I feel like I have to open myself up to all the voices I possibly can. And then sometimes I just get totally flummoxed and just, yeah, lose perspective a little bit. You know what I mean? I totally understand. I guess I find it interesting. And I think it speaks to your sensitivity

that the cultural weather affects your equilibrium quite so much. But doesn't it everyone? I mean, you're seeing the effects of it all over the world, that the cultural weather affects your equilibrium quite so much. But doesn't it everyone? I mean, you're seeing the effects of it all over the world. The way that people are voting, the way that people speak about politics. All these conversations have real world effects. Don't you feel like that, though? I think probably that's true. But I think I'm quite good at opting out

of a lot of that stuff. This is the thing. It's like, I'm not totally overwhelmed by this stuff 24 seven. It was bad in 2020. I was going to say, so how are you now? Yeah, pretty good. I think that, you know,

getting off social media is a big part of the puzzle. I got off Twitter at the beginning of 2020 and that was the best thing I ever did it's certainly for an overthinker I'm talking about you know what I mean like I can see that there's a lot of enjoyable stuff happening there and useful things that happen with social media but for someone like me it was not useful and I just thought life's too short. So off I got. And it was almost immediately like being set free. Really? Yeah.

Like feeling lighter. I didn't miss a single thing about it. Really? Yeah. On the whole, for me, it just represented a load of wasted time, days that were pointlessly, needlessly ruined because I was stressing out over some random comment that someone had just blasted at me. You could say that's nonsensical and just tune it out. You could say that, couldn't you? But then you wouldn't be confronting the reality of my mind.

Right. Then you would be someone else. Then I would be someone else, like a sane person. Right. It got to me. I don't think it's sustainable. I think if you really want to play the game, then that's your whole life. That's all you're going to be doing. And then you're a sort of Piers Morgan figure who just figured out that feuding and weighing in with a strong opinion on this or that, having a pop at Prince Harry or Meghan Markle or Donald Trump all day, every day will continually drive your channels. I don't really, I'm not that interested in that. I'd rather be an observer. Good for you. I agree with you. I just think it's weird how in the modern conversation,

we're encouraged to be more thoughtful, more empathetic, more nuanced, all these things that people are always wanging on about. And yet the baseline for most online media is a kind of sensationalism and tabloid mentality that would have seemed grotesque in the seventies, let alone now in the sensitive 2020s. You know what I mean? And they're talking about important and interesting stuff a lot of the time, but it's presented in this totally click-baity way that is feeding all the worst aspects of online engagement at a time when everyone is going, we should be being more responsible about online engagement. And what's this doing to us us and this is still the dawn of social media and how is that affecting us as a society and yet everyone's just like oh no you gotta do more

sensationalist ads that'll boost your numbers put the red box around the inflammatory word in the thumbnail that's what everyone feels they have to do now. Can I say, this is a very awkward segue. Oh, yeah. It's a pleasure to have you on. Oh, thanks, man. I think you know I'm a fan of the podcast. It's been such a pleasure not just speaking to you, but also doing the prep for this.

I think I mentioned the Kaivan Novak episode, but also a couple of the old Joe Cornish ones, Tash Dimitriou, and feeling like there's something about intelligent, fun, humane chat that is just humanizing. You feel that you're a bit less alone in the world. And that's what you can bring to the podcast space that I think perhaps I can do slightly better. That's a joke. Did the joke work? So thank you for coming on man thank you thanks for having me did that sound like i landed the jump yeah that was good did i did i land the routine is that something you do are you okay Are you okay? So, hope you enjoyed that. It's me, Louis, back again in the studio on my own now. So, to recap, what are the

takeaways? You know, that was more or less fairly reflective of how Adam and I talk in general. And I'm always surprised, and probably shouldn't be given that we have known each other coming on for 40 years. I'm surprised how much he's affected by, suppose negativity like feedback that is critical or whether it's comments on Twitter or just stuff in the ether but what I enjoy about Adam is that he's someone who is obviously making high quality podcasts and comedy and but also that he's sort of growing up in public in a certain way as I suppose a lot of us are like we've been sort of growing up in public in a certain way as i suppose a lot of us are like we've been broadcasting all those years and that he's conscious of not wanting to be stale and not wanting to be an old fart notwithstanding that we are both of us obviously um if i can use the

technical term cishet fuckboys so he sort of straddles that in grapples with it in interesting ways and maybe i'm guilty of being slightly glib and i hope it comes across that i admire adam and you know and i suppose that goes to this thing of me feeling a bit like the junior partner it seemed to me almost that adam and joe at school were supernaturally talented like um precocious in their ability to produce high quality comedy, you know, doing it when we were all 14, 15, 16, just doing just funny bits of business. I can't imagine there's many people who haven't, who listened to me, who haven't listened to his podcast. But, you know, for the avoidance of all doubt, definitely check out his amazing body of work. A few notes. It's actually Jesse Hughes and not Josh Holm. Holm, H-O-M-M-E, of the Eagles of Death Metal, who is the Trump supporter.

We spoke about John Ronson's podcast. That was John Ronson On, from Radio 4, available on BBC Sounds, which examines a series, this is a quote, I think, from its thumbnail, which examines a series of diverse stories and subjects. So that's how it's described. It's not described as John Ronson on failure. John is a friend and he wouldn't be so kind of insensitive or gauche to, I think, invite Adam on to talk about being a failure. That's not his style. So that wasn't suggested, nor did I intend to imply it, nor did Adam. I should also clarify, and this is rather important in case it crashes the internet, or I'm accused of circulating

irresponsible conspiracy theories there is nothing online to substantiate suggestions that elon musk has nightly injections of child plasma or george soros for that matter right that is absolute fiction and it shows what happens when you make too many documentaries about the far right is that eventually the abyss starts peering into you and it's time to take a break and start mainly doing a podcast i think that's it um oh credits produced by millie chu the assistant producer was man al-yazari the production manager manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was and is Aaron Fellows. He gets a present tense for form of the verb to be for reasons we haven't established.

Everyone else's was and Aaron is, is, is, is. Strange. We don't know why. He insists on it. The music in this series is, he also gets an is. The music in this series was and is by Miguel de Oliveira. This is so mysterious. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.