The Louis Theroux Podcast - S3 EP2: Headie One discusses his smash hit ‘Know Better’, security concerns, and the truth about his stage name

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

Louis is joined by rapper and ‘King of Drill’, Headie One. They meet at the Spotify studio to discuss Headie’s life and career, including the tragic events surrounding his track, ‘Know Better���, growing up on the infamous Broadwater Farm estate, and the real origins of his stage name. Plus, Louis gets a lesson in drill slang. Warnings: Strong language and adult themes.     Links/Attachments:    Hip Hop Raised Me: ‘Pop Smoke UK interview with DJ Semtex’ - Youtube  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ-Hip-6Gw0&ab_channel=HIPHOPRAISEDME     Headie One - Know Better - Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/track/0IX9PL2dUVCHp6L4JQ9Rzq?si=34ecda24bc274eb4     File on 4: ‘Attack on rap star sparked a wave of killings’ - BBC Radio 4 (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p085qvh3     ‘Is drill the most controversial genre of music?’ - GQ (2018)   https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/drill-music-controversy-headie-one-harlem-spartans    Headie One x Drake - Only you Freestyle – YouTube  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQriFAMBRs&ab_channel=HeadieOne     Headie One ft Sampha - Memories - YouTube  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWQOfXfMrJA&ab_channel=HeadieOne     Headie One – Psalm 35 – YouTube  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvJPWLE3pQg&ab_channel=HeadieOne-Topic     Headie One – Martin’s Sofa - YouTube  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cKPgHCciEA&ab_channel=HeadieOne     Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Show notes compiled by Sally McLennan  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mike number one, Mike number one. Isn't this a lot of fun? Hello, Louis Theroux here and welcome to my podcast called, I had to look down to find out, oh, the Louis Theroux podcast. That's easy. I'm joined today by rapper and pioneer of UK drill, Hedy One. Hedy is one of the biggest names in the UK scene, hailing from Tottenham in North London. In 2018, his second mixtape, The One, with the hit single No Better, brought him to the forefront of UK drill and led to collaborations with Drake, Dave, Stormzy and AJ Tracey, among others. His turbulent

past frames his music, including two juvenile stints in prison, and then in 2014 he was sentenced to 30 months in prison for transporting £30,000 worth of cocaine and heroin into Aberdeen. It was in prison that he began writing songs. He describes it in our conversation as going away. At the beginning of the chat we go deep into what is arguably the biggest controversy around Heedy and his music. Basically his breakthrough hit No Better deals with a confrontation in January 2018 and its aftermath. After a gig in Luton, Hedy was confronted by boys loyal to the rival Wood Green gang.

A video of the incident spread quickly online with negative comments about Hedy. The next day there were two shootings in Wood Green, allegedly in revenge. And the day after, Heady released his track, No Better. One of the key lyrics from memory was, they say I took an L in L but made a W in W. Took an L in L, a loss in Luton, a win in Wood Green. Many of you will already know that. I'm just filling it in for the older listeners. So that's all discussed in some detail. This interview was recorded in July of 2024, a few weeks after his latest album, The Last One, came out, and before he embarked on a world tour. Heady was a little late to the interview, after a long night in the studio, and immediately asked for an energy drink. I thought it might be Hennessy, but it wasn't. Warnings! Strong

language! Mainly from me. Sorry about that. And adult themes. All of that after this. How are you feeling by the way? Everything alright? I'm feeling great. I was in the studio till late last night. Were you? So I had one of those nights. Where do you record if I may ask? I had a producer session so I was in a different studio from where I usually record. I was in a studio in Southwest, Fulham, something like that. Fulham, Chelsea, something like that.

On the side, I mean I don't know, I want to basically be guided by your kind of comfort level in terms of what you want to basically be guided by your kind of comfort level in terms of what you want to talk about. I know you've got, you have to think about security and stuff like that. I read that you live in Richmond is where I'm trying to get to. Yeah, that was previously. Yeah. Previously, but I don't live, I lived in that area, but I don't live around them anymore. Can you say where you live? No, I can't.

Really? Yeah, because funny enough, the last place where I lived had a burger, the day before I went to go on tour. By coincidence, it wasn't targeted, or what do you think? I think it is targeted. I think so it was targeted, yeah. Do you have to be careful about that sort of stuff? Yeah, very, very careful.

You have to be careful what you put on the socials, I imagine. Definitely, yeah. Nowadays it's easy, especially through social media, to like piece things together in terms of like with pictures and stuff that people see in real life. It's just tough to see a few things all the time and it's not really hard to like get a location. And people would come and run up on you and because not because, well, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Like it could be because there's beef or it could be because they see an opportunity to get something of value literally also I think when when you're when you're living in those kind of areas it's very less likely to be like beef or

that problem it's probably going to be like to get something of value I think that's more like the focus um the security focus when you're living in certain communities and nice areas. But yeah, obviously there's still a small percentage that the other may be a possibility as well. And I think there's a precedent for rappers getting robbed whatever or even killed based on what they put on social media specifically. Pop Smoke, I think. Yeah. Did you know him? Not personally. I think he shouted you out though didn't he?

Yeah I think he'd done an interview and he was showing his appreciation towards the musical but I never had a chance to meet him because I think the time when he came over to England and that kind of stuff I wasn't really around at the time. You were away as they say? Yeah. I like how you use that expression. Yeah. Do you do that out of it's just a habit? Is it to say away instead of saying like I was behind bars or whatever? Yeah it's just like a different way of looking at things to be honest. I feel like when you get very like specific and it's almost like puts like a never very negative feel on it to be honest. But there's also like a positive way of looking at it even though what's happening isn't really positive so I just like to keep it

that use that terminology. Yeah it's you know I listened to rap growing up I always thought oh well it's kind of show business and then it was the more I listened to it the more it became clear there's elements of that clearly because it's being sold and packaged in the marketplace but there's a lot more reality to it than maybe I used to think. Oh you mean that in the music? In the music yeah and that actually the lifestyle and that the stakes are very real and as much as there is a temptation to see rappers as characters in a movie right and you've even said, I think on the new album, you talk about my life, if it was a movie on Netflix, you wouldn't

believe it kind of thing, what should have been a movie. But at the same time, people die for real. Like it's not fictional. No, definitely. It's just like, it's people expressing things that will be happening even if like, there wasn't that genre of music or that kind of music going out there anyway. So I just see it as a way of like telling a story or like everybody speaking like their truth and about their experiences. So I feel like that's what gives the style of music a very like real feel and it makes it also very emotional as well. Should we address that head on? Is it uncomfortable or shall I just put it out there?

Because obviously the narrative is that drill as a genre is probably the most stigmatized kind of form of popular music in the mainstream. It's literally had politicians and police chiefs saying it needs to be censored. Yeah. We've had artists like Degardee, I think whose lyrics are scrutinized. Yeah. I know you're more than drill, but you've made music in the drill genre.

Yeah. What do we say about whether or not drill glamorizes crime? That's what it comes down to, isn't it? Yeah. I think it can come across that drill can glamorise as crime. But there's two ways of looking at it. You can also look at it in a way where the crime is happening anyway, whether it's being spoken about or not. Because before I ever knew how to rap a lyric or even drug ever existed, there was extreme levels

of crime which I experienced even without being involved in as a as young as being a toddler, you know what I'm trying to say, from the environment that I grew up in. So I feel like even though it can come across as it being glamorized, it can also come across as it like being a tool to bring attention to what is going on and that is what has actually happened. Because like you said, there's politicians actually speaking about the drama and the things that's going on. So yeah, it's just a way of people trying to be heard and speaking their truth in the environments that they've grown up in. Really, that's like my view on it. And I feel like in the new album you called it the last one right and um

what interpretation would you put on that? Why did you call it the last one? The reason I call it the last one is because like my music can sometimes be very reflective and also come across very negative as well in terms of of the feel to it and the topics that I cover because obviously the past hasn't been very positive all the time. So I just feel like I want to turn over a leaf musically and attempt to head into a more positive space in my views on things and the stuff that I speak about. But I highlight the word attempt because obviously these are kind of stuff that we can't really control how we feel in it. And when we make music, we just express ourselves.

But it's definitely something I'm gonna try and make a conscious effort to do, definitely. In the album, not to keep going on about the album, but well, I suppose that's fair enough, isn't it? It feels like there's a tension between you attempting to take life in a more positive direction and then being pulled back, right? That it's not actually easy to cut ties.

Yeah, no, it's not. I don't think it's easy at all. If it was pulling you back, what would that be? I just think it's like the place that we grew up on, it's like... Broadwater Farm Estate in Tottenham. Broadwater Farm Estate is very influential in our ways of thinking and also our ways of doing things and our ways of processing things. So that's something that obviously from getting into music and like experiencing different

things and traveling the world and seeing different stuff is like you slowly introduced different ways of handling things and thinking and processing things into your life as an individual. Also because like the presence of the past is like very strong it's like I think it'll be tough for anyone to just have it as a single decision and just move forward. And even if you move on, you know, not everyone is going to move on with you. Like people have long memories. Sometimes it's not like, okay, I'm going to be strictly show business now.

Putting the road behind me. It's like you don't get to necessarily make that decision unilaterally. Do you know what I mean? Oh, literally. It's complicated because clearly in speaking truthfully, there's a risk that you appear to be glamorizing it, right? And also that you've had the level of success that you've had based on telling truthful stories about things that you've gone through, right? That it's hard to extricate the one from the other. And you know, one of the striking things was listening to, uh, no better, right?

No better being the track that kind of blew you up to the next level based on some very negative events that took place over kind of tip for tap violence between two areas of North London. Should we talk about that for a second? I went to do a show at University of Bedfordshire in Luton. Obviously after the show I bumped into a girl and we were just chilling. But obviously with these kind of, especially at university, these news kind of travels fast. So that was also me being naive as in how far my music had gone at the time. Because to me at the time I slept something that's just a normality.

I just had a night out and just chilling to be honest. But I didn't realise I was as popular as I was at the time. So me being in that environment was like a big deal, you know what I'm trying to say. And then the news was spreading and the news obviously spread into like the wrong hands, like people with negative intentions. So were they haters? would we say that? I think so, because on the initial, it's actually crazy because on the initial approach with these people, there was no like issue.

Right. Almost like a fan coming to. Really, were they uni students, do you think? No. No, they just, but they'd been there for the show, do you think? No. They just heard that you were there? They just heard I was there and then just turned up, No. No. But they'd been there for the show, do you think? No.

They just heard that you were there? They just heard I was there and then just turned up, but I don't think the intention was to like cause me any serious harm or anything. I just think they just wanted to just come and like just kind of see what's going on, to be honest. They heard I was alone and probably in a vulnerable position, so just wanted to just like, just come and just like... They wanted to hang and they felt offended?

Or what do you think was in some... I think they just felt like, because I'm a musician at the time or becoming a musician, they couldn't like leave there, like with me just walking away. And then, and then it kind of... So again, silly, I said I'm going to leave here because obviously like I'm in a situation where I can get in trouble as well

And I'm not gonna get in trouble and you guys are here like no many of them were there like four And I was and I was by myself It was literally was literally talking on it talking in the beginning everything was fun But if that's the case, then why would it have led to beef between Tottenham and Wood Green? So what had happened was I think the people that came to approach was coming to approach based on that problem, obviously which I was also trying to move on from at the time and get into music, that that was their feel to come because that's what they were still observing, even though it wasn't something that was imminent at the time, if that makes sense. I wish I wasn't in that scenario in the first place because obviously there was such a negative

knock-on effect. I do want to reference the seriousness of what happened and 22-year-old youth worker, Coby Nelson, lost his life. Did you know him? Yeah. Was he a friend of yours? Is he the broski that's referenced in the lyric? Yeah.

And then someone called Kelvin O'Dunye was shot dead outside Wood Green Cinema. Someone called 17 year old Tanisha Melbourne Blake killed in a drive-by in Tottenham. The video of you in Luton was blowing up and I'd read that you said that your manager said, you know, you're all over social media. You need to do a song about this. Yeah. Is that what happened? Yeah, that's exactly what happened. No Better sounds almost like, if I can say like playful, braggadocious flex, like against

a different area in which you use very discreet kind of forms of expression, like the ad lib of shh, right, in order to not say too much about the situation, which blew up and like was massive and is still a kind of a drill classic. Is there a part of that that you regret or is that going too far? Like, do you regret aspects of putting out no better? And because it was contended that that sort of escalated the situation. Yeah, I wouldn't really say I regret it. But it's not something that I feel positively about. As I say, that's not something I felt positively about at the time. When I was in the studio making that song, it comes across like it's boastful and like we're celebrating and whatnot, but that's not the emotion that I was feeling so I was actually feeling the complete opposite. In what way? I was feeling

like disappointed and on edge feeling like overwhelmed by everything that's going on. I see my first time experience and anything like that on on such a like mainstream level and I just felt like at that time I was just trying to do something positive and come into my music. But obviously the negative things that I'd been keeping up with not so long before just followed me right into the new role that I was trying to take. So at such a young age, it was like kind of hard to process everything at the same time. And this was six years ago, wasn't it? Yeah. Was it Jan 2018? Yeah. So I would have been, I think 23. Yeah. Like the only, the only way

I could express myself at the time was by doing that song. And that was like out of a lot of negative emotions. It wasn't out of positive emotions. Yeah man, I think about it daily to be honest. In what way do you mean? How do you think about it? How things could have been different, even though it may appear to like, I had a song out of it and that kind of stuff, but that's not the view that I have on it to be honest. I don't feel like I gained from it in a positive way. I more feel like it's a burden, if that makes sense. I wasn't sleeping. Obviously the people that I was involved with, relationship wise, was going through loads of stresses on my parents, my family. There was a big

knock on the door. I had friends that were trying to rehabilitate and then they got taken back into custody as well. And there was so much negative. I had to deal with a lot more negative than positive at the time. Well there was both, right, which is what comes out of I Still Know Better, right, you're sort of covering the same incidents but in a different way it feels like it's more reflective yeah and more ambivalent about the whole thing. That was the aim because that's that's where I'm like even though like when I made No Better obviously based on the circumstances that was happening at the time like was rolled out in that kind of way was I always had like a different view on things but it's not all the time that like that when out in that kind of way was I always had like a different view on things

but it's not all the time that like that when things like that is especially on social media we have a chance to express these these different views you know I'm trying to say we have the opportunity to express our different thoughts on or outlook on what's going on so I don't really felt like I had the opportunity to to to really do. It was a very touchy subject at the time, obviously, like legally, and all the attention that was on it. So I felt like it was something that the listeners needed to hear. I didn't want them to just think like the way that you described it, if you know what I'm trying to say.

I wanted them to understand that even though this is the song that I made, this is all the feelings that was around it, which I didn't get to communicate at the time. Yeah, and that's usually the way things are with a lot of the music that I release. It's only a two minute, two and a half minute song. We don't really get the chance to like really analyze things in a... And obviously there's only a two minute, two and a half minute song. We don't really get the chance to like, really analyze things in a, and obviously there's only so much amount of times that we could sit down like this and have conversations about it. So I like to like get deeper into things, man,

and bring people in and make them understand that things can like, you can be shown one side of things, but things can be looked at in a, and analyzed in a full circle and things are analyzed and looked at in a full circle by me as an individual. Yeah. Yeah. So two minutes is like hard to do justice to the full experience of a complicated and actually tragic situation. Right. And so I do get that. And then there was a file on four, right? BBC radio piece about it, which you then sample in, I still know better.

They're basically reported on the whole thing and kind of threw your name into the mix. How did you feel about that? Was that annoying or did you feel it was inaccurate or did you feel it was fair enough? I don't really have a view on it, to be honest, because I feel like, like I said, I've never really, I never really had the chance to like, and people don't really have the chance to

see like my Your side of it. And I was struck that you took, you sampled quite a lot of it, the intro and the outro, do I still know better? I thought, why is he in some way, you know, it kind of was, it frames the song almost as though you're sort of accepting that this is a valid interpretation of what happened. I feel like some of the points that was made on there, I wouldn't go as far as to say it was accurate, but it's like, it was just real in terms of like how some people may perceive

the situation like I said everyone sees things differently from a different angle you know what I'm gonna say so that's just their angle of seeing things I also have my experience on how things would have went and it may be very different too. But just even sonically as a composer as a riser was it your decision to put that on there and what did you feel it was doing for the track? I feel like it just made the song more like hit home a bit more, like as a real life scenario

that was happening because a lot of the time when I'm making music it's very easy for the listener to think because other artists may do this, that things may be make-believe or not real or made up. But like I said before, I like to make my music as real and to the point as possible so people can have their own interpretation on it and take from it what they feel like they can relate to. So that's why I felt like I wanted to put that sample into the music because so that it is almost like making it hit home more that this is actually a real thing and it's not, we're not telling stories here and we're not making things up.

It's almost like a documentary. Literally. And you said you think about it every day. Yeah. And at the same time you got a record then, like at that time it was like blowing up massive. It just seemed like it was played like 200 times on Radio One Extra. So did the tragedy around it prevent you from enjoying that? Or you just kind of toggling between two extremes of like grief and excitement?

Yeah, it's crazy because at the beginning of that week, like I said in the song, that's when I signed, I had signed my own record deal in the same week. Before No Better Came Out? Before No Better Came Out. So you were already on the up, like it was already kicking off for you. Yeah, so I think it was on like a Tuesday, I signed to the record label and

then on the Fridays when all the situations was happening. So like, yeah, that was like probably one of the probably the maddest week of my life to be honest. The first time I performed the song was like in Leicester in front of like 2000 people. And like, that's probably why I was one of my moods that I'd ever been in but the crowd would never know they're just there hearing the song and thinking this is amazing but me I'm like I'm pissed off because I've just had the most craziest week I've been I've had to get arrested I've had to my dad's doors had to been kicked off by police my sister's doors been kicked off by police my auntie's to have been kicked off by police, my sister's doors been kicked off by police, my auntie's door had been kicked off by police.

Because why? Not because of the lyric or because, because as far as they know, you just was the victim, if you like, of an altercation in Luton. So why were they investigating you? They're just feeling like, like everything that was happening around it is like, they just think that I was just like... You're in the mix in some way. Yeah. So it was like it's negative. I'm having to deal with all of that with family. It wasn't the same feeling as like making like a song and everyone's enjoying the song and you feel

positive about it. I had to deal with like a lot of like immediate negative things whilst the song was becoming popular. But over time you heal a bit and you look at things from a different kind of view and understand things a bit better and come to terms with things. So that kind of just like started to relax after a while. Yeah, wow, that's a lot to think about, isn't it? Yeah, a lot. We were talking about Pop Smoke, he would have just heard you, what, just because you had exposure in the US,

because you can't go to the US, is that correct? I'm working on it, yeah. Because of convictions, but you're going to appeal it and... Yeah. Have you ever been there? Never been to America, no. How's it looking? Does it look like you can do it? It's looking much better. I've done a few.

I've got a good... What do they call it nowadays? I've got good references. I've done quite a few good things. Obviously, since I've been put in those situations, that would have put me in a position to not be able to go. It's just about just communicating that with them and then reaching the reach understanding to be able to go over there. Yeah. Would you like to do shows over there? No, definitely. Definitely. I've always like, I was, I've always wanted to go to the United States even before like music. So I used to listen to a lot of American music as well. Who did you used to listen to?

I'd listen to like Max B. Max B who was part of... Count me out. He used to make a lot of music with French Montana. What track would I know if I knew one? A lot of his music was like... It felt very underground at the time. Did it?

Yeah. Was he a game spitter? Was it trap in feel? Was it talking about the lifestyle? Yeah, definitely, yeah. But I felt that I liked the way he expressed emotion in his music. And then we had French Montana as well, who's more like a lyricist. He was on Rick Ross's Maybach music. Rick Ross.

Puff Daddy's Bad Boy. They were on P Diddy's label. Yeah. We're not going to talk about P Diddy. Yeah. Are we? It's very complicated. And I don't, and I don't really know like,

much details to be honest. On Diddy? Yeah. So it's just like, it's all like social media stuff in it, as it stands. Who knows? We're going to find out. It doesn't look honest. Yeah. So just like, it's all that social media stuff in it as it stands. Who knows? We're going to find out. It doesn't look good. Yeah. Um, who else? French Montana, uh, Max B. Styles P. Styles P. Yeah. Um, just a bit of everyone like the early, um, Drake stuff, the, um, Biggie Smalls, Biggie Smalls. Yeah. Like I was a fan of of R&B music as well, like TLC and Elia. Mary J Blige.

Mary J Blige. Brilliant. Brandy. Brandy? Faith Evans. Faith Evans. Wasn't she his girlfriend? She was Biggie Smalls' wife or girlfriend? I think wife, I think so, I know that. And then that was when the Tupac said, excuse my language, I fucked your bitch you fat motherfucker. Yeah. Gee. Do you remember that?

It's not great, yeah. I can't remember it like, because I was, I would have been a baby at the time, but growing up that's definitely stuff, that stuff that was, I used to see quite a lot, yeah. You mentioned Drake. You collabed with Drake. Yeah. He called you the king of drill. Your track was called Only You Freestyle?

Only You Freestyle. He's been in some hot water lately. Have you been following it? Yeah, I don't know if I'd call it hot water though. You know? Yeah, I don't really know if I'd call it hot water. What would you call it? I don't know. I only see what I water though, you know? Yeah, I don't really know if I'd call it hot water. What would you call it? I don't know. I only see what I see online, to be honest.

I love your discretion. I think what, if I can, may I? I think what the streets are saying, I feel weird saying that to you, is that Kendrick has sort of punked him. I wouldn't, I wouldn't really agree to be honest. Would you do a collab with Kendrick? has sort of punked him. I wouldn't really agree to be honest. Would you do a collab with Kendrick? If I mean Kendrick, I've never really been the biggest fan of his music. I feel like obviously he does music a bit differently from what I kind of appreciate growing up,

Biggie Smalls and that kind of stuff. They're a bit more fun and more getting to flows and a bit more celebratory. Like, and what they talk about, I think that I'm trying to say. He's not, he's not, uh, what am I trying to say? He's not spitting game. Is that the right term? Yeah. I like that expression. I don't know why. You know, I once met Manny Fresh. Yeah. This was in 2000 and it was when he was with Cash Money and Lil Wayne was there, he was about probably 17 at the time and Manny Fresh came up to me

and he looked at me and he said, you're not a rapper. I said, no, he said, no, you're a game spitter. And obviously he was making fun, but that idea of actually, instead of being a rapper, you are someone who just describes your life, a life that's been lived kind of in the streets to some extent or involved in the lifestyle

that appealed to me. You were talking about where you grew up. N17. Tottenham, Broadwater Farm Estate. It's quite a famous estate. I did a little reading up on it. Bear with me. You ready for some research? Ready? Often referred to simply as the farm, an area of Tottenham in North London. Basically an experiment in high density social housing, loosely based on Corbusian ideas, the architect Le Corbusier, dominated

by concrete towers connected by walkways, the controversial streets in the sky, built in the late 60s using cheap but fire vulnerable prefab concrete panels. In 1985, in a book published called Utopia on Trial by Alice Coleman. The area acquired a reputation as one of the worst places to live in the United Kingdom, a perception that was exacerbated when serious rioting erupted later that year. But I think you've got like a kind of more nuanced take on it, like aspects of it were idyllic, like there were parks there, you had a community there. So it was a bit of both, was it? Yeah, obviously dating back to the 80s, I wasn't born yet, so I wouldn't really have experienced it to that level because what happened was they kind of changed the estate

quite a lot over time where like how they speak about all the roads and the air and all of that. I think due to like the high level of crime and all that kind of stuff and the riots, they actually knocked all of those links down. So I think back then, it used to be a situation where every single tower block, you could travel through the whole estate,

through the deck floor, without actually putting your feet on the actual ground. Yeah. So yeah, it was like contended that there were nooks and crannies and unsupervised or discreet quiet areas, corners where you could, you know, mischief could take place. Definitely. So at the time, at the point where I was obviously born and I started growing up, it was a lot more like, like torn down in terms of like, yeah, a lot of things have been put into place already for things to already start changing. But it was still like, had a very similar feel, like very close knit community, even like a lot of negative things would happen.

On a new album, you've got to track memories. You say one of my earliest memories was Bloodshed. You see on the ends all the crazy things you see through a window yeah you grew up on a household where everybody hates the back bread yes the back bread the back bread is like a it's a slang that we use for um you know when you get a loaf of bread and it's like the last the bread that goes on the heel I call that yeah so it doesn't it's not it's not bread on both sides like one side is kind of like closed yeah and it's't it's not it's not bread on both sides that one side is kind of like yeah Yeah, and it's less desirable. Yeah, it's not as soft. Yeah So that was a thing was it like everybody hates the back bread. Yeah

Everybody hated the back bread if you got the back bread as a slack You'll be pissed off you fight for the last slice like we Kimbo a reference to the backyard brawler Kimbo Slice. Yeah. Fight for the last slice. Is there a double meaning there that I'm missing or are you literally just talking about bread? Yeah, let's talk about the bread literally. Wintertime talks to primary school. We took the slip road,

had to climb five flights of stairs because the lift broke. Hard trying to fix a broken home. This home been broke. Do you want to say anything about any of that? Yeah, just like speaking about the realities, to be honest, like broken home, obviously I didn't grow up with my mom, innit? She died when you were?

Like three years old. Yeah, Edna. Yeah, so I spent a lot of time growing up with a single parent and my sister and I had aunties and cousins so I'm not sure what terminology they used for it but my dad used to call it a broken home. That's where I kind of got the term from. You know it's hard because obviously I've listened to the new album and the other albums I've studied the lyrics and there's this paradox in rap music

in general that certain things have to be spoken of carefully, right? And at the same time, the lyrics are like breadcrumbs. Does that make sense? There's a trail that if you follow it, you can actually sort of figure out basically what's been going on. And there's actually a lot of intimacy and self-revelation in your lyrics. One of the things you talk about is maybe feeling unloved by your step-mom. Is there anything you want to say about that? It's just one of those, to be honest, really. Obviously, you know, it's hard for, obviously, especially a male parent to bring up children in the house. It's usually not that dynamic and it's usually the other

way around, as people would be more familiar with in my knowledge. So obviously, I had a stepmom when I was, I think when I was finishing primary school, and she wasn't the greatest of people to be honest, so I had a lot of negative experiences in the household with them. And also at the time my older sister had left the house because of like her falling out with her as well. So I had to experience like loads of those negative experiences with just... Just on your own. Just with me. And obviously my dad at the time spends a lot of time working.

What was his job? He's still a driver. Driver for like at the time. Driver for what? Cabs or lorries? Yeah like cabs yeah. So yeah that was that. I had a I felt like I had a lot of a lot of resilience yeah from a very young age so it was just something that I just dealt with at the time. I didn't really have like a the most massive of effects but it still wasn't that. Well it's hard isn't it? I can't find the lyric but there's one where you talk about you'll know what it is where you say she wouldn't give you food or you had to ask her for food. What's the lyric? I can't remember it to be honest. Come on don't make me find it. Seriously? I think I remember I definitely remember speaking about honest. Come on, don't make me find it. Seriously? I think I remember, I definitely remember speak about that.

How old were you when she entered the picture? I must have been like maybe between nine and 11. Was she of Ghanaian heritage as well? Yeah, yeah, she came from, she came actually from Ghana. Right. Yeah. So she's culturally maybe a tiny bit different. Yeah.

You know, in our touch. I've got the line, you ready? Yeah, yeah. My step-ma was a bitch. She used to make me beg her to feed me. Yeah. Told my pops that I hate her so deeply. Deep down he knew I didn't mean it.

That's a very like strong lyric. Yeah, very strong lyric. But it's the truth though. She used to make me beg her to feed me. Because you know, and this is actually quite funny for people that are like from Ghana. So in Africa, people like use phrased sentences differently, you know. So it's like in England, you know, like if I wanted to ask you for something, I'd say, can you pass me that pen please? And then that's like very normal over here.

But she would be trying to correct me and say like, Oh, like you have to say please first, isn't it? Seriously? Yeah. So like, please, you have to say please. Can you pass me the pen? You know what I'm saying? Wow. And this is this will be over the food, you know what I'm trying to say. So and that's not our culture.

And obviously because I was quite intelligent and quite like a, quite like firm as a child, I would be like trying to like have the discussion like, oh, you know, like over here, like we actually say, we actually say, please, like it's normal to say please last. You had a sense of self possession and you wanted to make it clear that actually you hadn't necessarily made a mistake, that she was perhaps not au fait with the local customers and protocols. Yeah, because obviously that conversation is now happening and it's almost like a, it's coming across like a challenge on what she's saying.

Then there'll be like a stunts on the food basically, which kind of gives like the vibe that you want me to basically beg you for the food. Right. So yeah, it's Not really that great. Um, is she still in the picture? Nah, long gone out the picture now. Where is she now?

She just disappeared one day. Come on. I'm being serious. She walked off? Yeah, like I just came, I think I was just doing whatever I was doing, going to school and whatnot. And like, I just came home one day and then my dad was just like, oh yeah, was doing, going to school and whatnot. And I just came home one day and my dad was just like, she's not going to be coming back. I don't know what happened.

I hope she's OK. I hope she's cool. I don't know what happened though. It's proper random, isn't it? That's quite odd. How old were you? I think I would have been in year six. So about 11? Yeah, 11. So she wasn't around that long? No, probably maybe maximum like two to three years. And then after that you were there just you and your dad?

Just me and my dad, but after that I was actually taken to Ghana. Right, I read about this. Yeah. For about 18 months. Yeah. So I had an older sister and she was like, at that time, like coming to the end of secondary school. And I was coming to the end of secondary school. And I was like, I'll come to the end of primary school.

And we was kind of like very like, I don't know the best word to use, like very energetic kids, if you know what I'm saying. Vivacious, maybe a bit naughty. Naughty would be the best word to use. So I can imagine, obviously as a single parent, it would have been a lot of like pressure. So we just got like taken to Ghana on holiday. Well, we told them we were going on holiday. Did you go with your father? Yeah. Yeah.

The three of you. Me, my dad, my sister and one of my female cousins, my little cousins. And then they just like pulled a fast one on us. Go on. Yeah. Just said, oh, like yeah, Ghana holiday. And then as we're there, obviously, just said, oh, like, yeah, go on a holiday and then whilst we're there, obviously, you know, when you're young,

you don't really have control of your passport or whatnot. So they just told us, oh, like, yeah, you're gonna be staying there for a bit. On the last day, they were like, actually, you know this, I said this is a holiday, well, it's actually, you're not going back. Literally. Wow.

In Accra. In Accra, yeah. So they enrolled you in school over there? Yeah. Must have been quite a change of scene. How did you adapt? I didn't really adapt to be honest. I just had to just get with it. I wasn't happy about staying there at all. I was upset for like the first few weeks, maybe months. But then after a while, I just got in a groove of like, just being there and learning how to just handle myself there. And your sister was there as well and your dad stayed in Ghana as well? No, my dad came. He's Carport.

So who were you living with or was it a boarding school? I was staying with my grandma. Really? Yeah, my grandparents, yeah. What did you miss? I missed literally everything because one day I was just like in England doing like what I'm used to. I had all my friends and all of a sudden I just got on a holiday and then bam.

And now I have to make new friends and not only just new friends but new friends which are different, have different approaches culturally. But I think it was like a very character building experience at such a young age definitely. How did your mum die if I may ask? I don't even know, you know. Really? Yeah, I don't really know that I've never really been told. You haven't been curious to ask? No. My sister like I had a brief conversation with my sister because she was a bit older when it

happened and she she had told me a few deals but I just I can't really remember that I didn't really like hold on to it if you're not going to see but um no for the story that I was told was that we just went to a party. Obviously I was a baby at the time, went to a party and then she just like, just collapsed or something, she got home. Really? Yeah. Just that very sudden and unexpected. Do you have a sense of who she was?

Like, do you have memories of her or not really? Nah, not really. I have very vague ones, but no, no. But she's obviously, there's some sense of her that's important to you. Oh, definitely. The sense of, do you have a picture of who she was in terms of having talked to other people about her, talked to your dad about her? What's your perception of, what does she sort of represent to you at this point? I just know that it's different, innit?

I know, like, every route that I've had to take has had to be different based on what happened back then. So it's something that just, like, is in my mind kind of every day. It's how things could have been if things was, like, different, you know what I'm saying? But, yeah. I see it as a positive thing at the same time. Yeah, it's that good motivation. Shall we talk about how it was that you began getting into trouble? I'm sorry to be so basic, but you were obviously intelligent. I imagine you did quite well at school, did you?

I actually don't know how well I've done. I forgot like my results on that one. When I speak to my dad a few days ago, he said I got quite a decent amount of GCSEs. You don't really remember? Nah. Jeez. Did you go to school, like in terms of, you were fairly regular with your attendance? Yeah. The only thing I really had an issue with really was that punctuality. Right. Yeah.

I noticed by the way, not to make a big deal out of it. But you would get there in the end. Yeah, in the end, yeah. I made it to 11 as well. You're 11. Yeah. You caught your first case when you were 17. 17, yeah. Actual case case, yeah. Can you say anything about that? Can you say anything about that? Just like, just young days getting caught up in stuff. A lot of stuff escalate quickly like over the time without you realising to be honest. Especially at such a young age, you're going to school and things are happening. And also I have a nephew as well. It's crazy because when my parent, my dad used to tell me certain things, like when

I was like 13 and 12, he used to tell me like,, like when I was like 13 and 12, and he always used to tell me, like, oh, we're just hanging around. This is how trouble happens. You know what I'm saying? When you're just roaming around with no purpose, this is when trouble comes and that kind of stuff. And I would just think,

like he's just cramping my style kind of thing. But now that I have a nephew who's like a similar kind of age and I've had loads of experience, like I've had so much negative experiences based on me not following the advice that I was given to me, I can kind of like see it from a different viewpoint. It's crazy because growing up in a place that we grew up in, that was like the normal, that's like the culture that does not really, when it's like summer holidays or when it's like summer holidays, or when it's like a weekend, all everyone does do is hang around. Nowadays, in more modern time, and like, parents are being more enthusiastic

and doing different things, parents are like taking their kids to like, to football, or to like ballet classes, or like tennis, like, like horse riding. But obviously, the place that we kind of come from is not really like, like it's very selected for you. Like it takes a lot of effort to be able to rise above and and do those kind of things to occupy a child's mind if you know what I'm trying to say. So the estate that I grew up in is just really hanging around culture, playing football in the park, hanging around till late. Everyone's parents knows each other so there's kind of like a bit of trust in the environment, even though it is dangerous, we're not gonna say it's like

at least like we can kind of see kind of thing and yeah like I didn't really see do anything other than hang around and go to school until like I became a teenager. So obviously that came with like a lot of learning a lot of things very early, seeing a lot of things very early, just yeah, very early. I mean, you can talk as little or as much about any of this as you want, right? And I respect the fact that this was, you know, the occasion for a lot of grief, prison time, personal risk, prison time, personal risk, lives were lost along the way.

But nevertheless, obviously I've put a picture together based on my understanding. It's been contended that you got involved with County Lines drug dealing, right? That was the second, I don't know if it was at 17 or later. And I think in the lyrics it sounds as though you're going up to Scotland to, I guess, to deal. If any of that were the case, like how much can you say about how someone gets involved in that? Like is that just a sort of inertia? You drift into it because the elders are involved and

they sort of feel like you can be helpful? I feel like everyone's experiences will be very different to be honest, but I feel like in my personal experience, I've never been one that likes to sit around and not do anything. Obviously, I'm a very proactive kind of person. So obviously that can have a little positive things and also little negative things at the same time. So where it's like, obviously we've grown up in this kind of environment and obviously our parents are doing our best, but there's still a lot of things that feel like it's falling short. As you get into a particular age and you feel like you can do some things for yourself kind of

thing. Just like the brain just starts to wander and come up with ideas and ways of doing things. So actually from when I was in year seven I used to sell sweets in school. I used to go to Morrison's, me and my group of friends, and we would actually like just like hijack the whole shelf, yeah, and then go off to school and I'd make like... Hijack it as in you'd pay for it or you'd just nick it? Yeah, just nick it. At the age of like 13. Couldn't they stop you? Nah.

Why not? He just was good at doing it. You did it on the down low or was it more of a kind of ram raid? No, just like on the down low. Really? Yeah, but it's just like, that's just like the naughty things kids would do when they're 12 and 13. That's kind of an example of what I mean by trying to make things a bit more comfortable for myself at a young age. And then like I'm saying, that can kind of like

be a positive thing. Obviously when it's innocent, you're stealing some chocolates and sweets like you can get in trouble but it's not that big a deal but obviously things just like I'm saying the mind only finds ways to amplify things and yeah I think that's what just happened naturally with me to be honest. I just got kind of carried away very early. But when I'm looking back I do wish like I had the knowledge, even though like I feel that things have changed quite a lot nowadays and it feels like there's much with this, with social media and the internet, there's much more opportunities to invest your energy into like other things which you can be very vigorous with and ambitious with and like

have a positive outcome very young. I do wish like I had the opportunity to explore that more, if you know what I'm trying to say. But at that time I didn't really feel like that was really an option. I didn't feel like there was much options. We didn't really know much other than the stuff that we actually knew at that time. Yeah, I get the sense that it was a circumscribed life and that you've talked about Broadwater Farm as being so self-contained that, you know, it was, you were a teenager before, you kind of went down to Oxford Street or kind of fully experienced the idea that there was a whole city on your doorstep that you could go out into? No. The first time I went to Oxford Street was when I was in college. I think. Yeah.

I never went to Oxford Street before I finished secondary school. Really? And when you went to college, what were you studying? I tried to study triple science. Actually, so I went to Oxford Street from year nine, but it didn't end very positively. Go on. Yeah. It was just like naughty stuff again. You were trying to nick more sweets?

Yeah, jackets and stuff like that. Was it? Yeah. That's the first time I got in trouble. Did they catch you? Yeah. And what did they do? Just like,

Flap on the wrist? Yeah, told off and all that kind of stuff. The case when you were 17, you got, did you get sent away for that? No, I had a very unique situation where I was like one of like six co-defendants and everyone else that was like in the situation with me got like quite lengthy sentences and whatnot.

And I got a hung jury. And yeah, they just decided not to proceed that day. They said that they felt like they're satisfied. So yeah, my dad always says to me that that was less more like a blessing to be honest like and a bit of luck. If you'd rather not say like I'm really conscious of being respectful of not kind of overdoing kind of a negative narrative, but at the same time, there's a lot in your lyrics about, in the music about prison. Prison was obviously formative in some respects. A time when you felt, I think, abandoned, right?

Yeah. That your friends didn't come see you as much as you thought maybe they would. Yeah. Like when you first were sent away, can you see what it was for? So obviously the first time when I went away was like for that trial that I said I had, and honestly ended up being able to walk away from that. But then after that was just more like... So you were on remand for that? Yeah. So you didn't get a sentence? No, it was like a whole that big fallout that had happened and yeah happened and a lot of people got dragged in.

That's why there were so many different cold offenders. But that's the kind of silly things that happen when you're hanging around. You can get dragged in on the road and stuff that just get out of control and are very unnecessary. To do with the politics of the area? Yeah. So it was definitely an eye-opener. I learnt quite a lot. Where were you on Remand?

In Feltham. In Feltham? Which is young offenders? Yeah, a young offender institution, yeah. So notwithstanding that, there was a few more cases, right? Can you say what the second one was? The second one was just more like, for like drug offenses, that kind of stuff. And yeah, everything going forward from there was like more stuff to do with that, to be honest.

To do with what being in the lifestyle sort of... Yeah. As a hustler, can I call it that? Yeah. You talk about being like basically caught between two worlds, caught between being in a student, you're doing like Monday to whatever, Thursday at college and then hopping on a train at Houston.

Yeah. Which lyric am I thinking of? I think you're speaking of a lyric from Martin Sofer. Yes, that's from Martin Sofer, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got the lyric. It's a double life and I'm working two shifts. Monday I'm trying to be a college boy. Friday on a Northwest train from Houston.

Yeah, I fucked up my attendance. I put two in a blue with magic. That lyric, I don't know what that means. It's just like all of that kind of terminology. People who know know. Yeah, the hustling terminology. I made a dissembl like the Avengers. Pa always said I'm useless.

Is that your dad? Yeah. Meaning? My dad's a very honest and open person. Which is good, up to a point. Yeah, so I had a point when I'm doing negative things and all that kind of stuff and he felt like he's like tried like to keep things under control but obviously I reached a stage where like I just like I've never been like disrespectful or like a person that actually doesn't listen

but where I say like my my enthusiasm was kind of like outweighing like everything else at the time so he would just be open and honest and just say, I'm stupid or say you're an idiot. You're gonna end up here, you're gonna end up there. He was worried for you, I imagine. Yeah. And what would he say? Everything. Every sort of insult that you can think of.

Yeah. I reached a point where I wouldn't even hit home to be honest. I was so wrapped in what I was doing. I wouldn't even say that I was stubbornness because I felt like I was really clued up for my age and things that was going on. But I just felt like I was just too determined on the path that I was on. And it just takes me basically. But you'd sent away or this is before you were sent away? This is before. Right.

I'd been sent away before, but this is before I had to go through a lot of negative experiences and whatnot. But that's what the kids don't really know. And that's what I like to express through my music because I say the same thing to my nephew as well. I say, a lot of my friends now that I speak to, like, every day that might not have had like the luxury of having like a complete U-turn or like being able to like find a way to navigate out of that kind of

negative environment. But at the age when I was getting into it, it would have been the complete opposite. Like everyone's enthusiastic and trying to get into it the age when I was getting into it, it would have been the complete opposite. Everyone's enthusiastic and trying to get into it. So when I like to do my music, I feel like that's where I like to be as open and honest as possible. I like to speak my experiences, but not in a way to glamourise it, but in a way to let people know, okay, I've done this, but it had to get like this before. And I'm lucky that it's got like this, if you know what I'm trying to say. 100%.

Can I say one more thing on this and then we'll move on? Yeah. Is that all right? That's fine. A 28 year old, Keith Dube. Keith Dube is like a, I guess he works with at-risk youth. You know, there's one narrative that suggests that drill music is obviously almost like journalism. It's describing what's going on. And also it's a way out. It's a way out of the streets. It's a way

of making money and changing your changing your life around. And his comment was, that's a weak argument. The majority of drill is war cries. It's guys bragging about what they've done. They're not looking back on past crimes. There's no growth. They're talking about a shooting that happened last week. He was asked, well, do drill artists, are they still actively involved in crime 100% because drill doesn't pay, they're going to make a lot more money selling drugs than making drill. I mean, do you think without commenting to you specifically, do you think there's anything in that, that is the idea that it's actually celebratory and war crimes? No, I feel like that's probably depending on what environment that he's in right now

and how things are going for him as an individual. Like I said, things can always be looked at in a full circle. But also, let's say for example, even if it was a war crime, a war cry, a war cry and like people are celebrating the negative things that are happening. Without the draw music or like the style of music, these negative things would be happening anyway. So all I feel that the music is doing is providing the pathway for people to escape and as many people as possible to attempt to even give them a chance to escape and that's what's happened. If you look at all these different areas around London, like council estates, nowadays there's artists that whatever kind of music that they do,

whether they're doing rap music or drum music, it's just another field of people changing their life and they can change someone else's life and give people motivation to change their life. People think music is only about the actual art of rapping, but people are becoming like businessmen, people are becoming managers and then building their portfolio to manage other artists away from draw music or the world cries that he's speaking about. So I feel like that's a very narrow way of thinking because if the draw music didn't exist, these positive changes in terms of what I'm talking about wouldn't be happening. Like we would have to find another way for it to happen. So I just feel like why not speak about what's going on

in these environments that would be gone anyway and then have an avenue to motivate people, have an avenue to elevate people and give people opportunities. Like me for example, I have two managers, I have friends that also started doing music, and they have managers, and then they have people that they then influence,

so I'm asked to do music, and they have managers, and that's, what, almost 16, 17, 18 people from a council estate that are thinking in a more positive way, or making and earning a living, and can help their families in a positive way and maybe someone can open a business or someone can do that. I feel like it's making a big, it's doing more positive than negative, 100%. Are you making a good living?

I like to believe so. Decent, yeah. Should we make it real for the people? How much? How much a year would you say? I don't know. It's a bit vulgar to talk about that kind of thing, isn't it? Yeah. What about your chain? Should we talk about that for a second? Can we see it more clearly? It says one.

It seems obligatory in interviews with you that we have to say That the name Hedy came from the shape of your head being like a 50 pp's. Yeah, apparently. I don't know Do you think that's really true? Nah, I feel like that's that's what is like on online But that's not actually like what like how the name came about. No, what would it have been then? So the name came about because I had an older cousin. He's like very playful. So when I was young, especially when I was a bit smaller, I had like quite a big head, didn't I?

From my age and he would just call me Heady in the house. And he was trying to wind you up but maybe in an affectionate way? Yeah, like just like, you know, like just siblings kind of. Yeah, like Ginger or specks. They used to call me glasses or specks. Oh, in the house? Yeah. Well, yeah, people in the area. Sure.

Yeah. So just like, obviously, he would call me that. And my sister would start calling me that all the time. And then after a while, then my family, friends, just like spreads out into the community. And then it's just stuck with me. How much would that chain be worth? Because it's got a lot of diamonds on it. Yeah, it's quite expensive.

Expensive. Should we put a number on it? I don't know. I don't know if you should, to be honest. It's probably more than 100 000 potentially In the streets, they call like what a thousand is is it a band? No, what is it?

A bag, it's probably more than a hundred bags Yeah, probably Might be 200 bags I really had to kind of go deep into the slang. You know, thank God for Genius, right, the website, because actually you can just look up the song and figure out what it means. Otherwise I'd be lost.

Dinger? What's a Dinger? It's like a, basically like a rubbish car. Like a car that's like, that cheap. Yeah, like a rust bucket. Because it's not a whip in other words. Yeah. Corn.

Corn. It could be used in quite a different way. I think we both know what it means. Yes, it could be used in quite a few different ways. But in, well, there's, if you're popping corn, Yeah. It's a bullet, isn't it? Not really.

Isn't it? Because corn, corn, corn, corn, like, if, like, for example, if I say, oh, you're holding corn, and I was just sitting in a room full of people, and like, someone keeps running jokes on you, or like, or keeps taking the mick out of you. I say, oh, you're holding corn, or he's like, corning you. Really? Yeah. jokes on you or like what keeps taking the mick out of you because they are your holding corner that corner you really yeah Niz I had the area where I grew up do you know the derivation of that one where that comes from just made up you

know it's cuz I think N17 looks a bit like that's why I was told Niz written down isn't it that's why I was told I've never heard down. Isn't it? That's why I was told. I've never heard of that one before. Really? That's a new one to me. Oh jeez. Ack? Well, I don't think I've used that term before, though. That's not really my term that I've used.

No. Yeah. I don't think you've used it. Yeah. That's, um, I think that's, I've heard other rappers say it before. That's just like oral sex. There you go. I never knew that one serious yeah

how's your energy you all right by the way I'm great okay good um so this is a line that's jumped out the streets gonna miss me this is off the new album yeah the streets gonna miss me absence makes the heart grow fonder it's just me and you so buckle up we got the whole world to conquer. Yeah. Do you have a special someone in your life? Yeah. She likes when you make arrangements on a Friday. So you've really been listening to the songs then? Yeah.

I could relate to that. You don't want to be too passive. As a man, you've got to be, she's like, well, do something special. Like, I've got dinner reservations. You know, the whole evening's planned. Well, it gets a bit hard though. Because when I get wrapped up with work

and traveling and that kind of stuff, sometimes I don't really, I just wanna come home and chill. I don't really wanna be out eating and all that kind of stuff. What do you like to do for fun? I don't really have fun, you know? I need to start having more fun. Seriously? Yeah.

Well, but what do you do to relax with her? Just a few holidays. Travel quite a lot actually. When you're spending quality time, let's say in the UK, what does that look like? Nothing. Nothing? Yeah.

It's a bit like hard to, you know, have quality time in the UK. I mean, honest. Because of your history? Not fully, because obviously that's like, I can go like out there, like there's loads of places that I go where people never really expect me to be, but.

Yeah, go somewhere like really just bougie, like. Buy like a lake or something. Chiswick or something. I wouldn't go to Chiswick. Why not? It's not really that bougie enough. Really? What's super bougie then? Notting Hill? Kensington? No, that's all too safe for me. Mayfair Park Lane? You mean like out of town spa, country club scenarios?

That sounds a little bit more like my kind of style. Out of town country club, by a lake somewhere, like a small village. Really? Yeah, just like that's what I find peaceful. Because everything else is always hectic. Like if I'm when I go to work, it's hectic 24 seven. So I wouldn't want to like have a day off and then be in May for everything. Why would it be hectic at work? Like if you're just recording, it wouldn't be that hectic, would it? Because when we're recording, we're recording in a city and we're thinking about security protocols

and then we're thinking about everything else day to day, not even when it comes to traveling as well there's still security protocols as well but... I'm just trying to get full measure of this. For you to go out, just now if you wanted to go for a walk around you know, we're in central London right now, not far from Trafalgar Square. You'd think twice before just going for a walk. Yeah, well, I could just go for the walk, but I have to understand that, OK, obviously I've got quite expensive jewelry, number one. And at the same time, people probably want to take some pictures because of lack.

They might be fans of the musical or not. So it's just like. And that could escalate. It could just be annoying. It's not peaceful to be like, it's just like, if you want to go for a walk, you want it to be a peaceful walk, doesn't it? Do you, you have a, when you said expensive jewelry,

we talked about the chain, is there a watch as well? Yeah, I got a watch as well. Is that rose gold? Yeah, rose gold. What do you think of that watch? I like it you know. Yeah it's black plastic. Serious. You could get that for about I think it's 14 pounds maybe. It's classic though. It's very classic and if you lose it you can buy another one. Literally. Right. Straight like. It's not even you don't even it's not even annoying really we have to reset the time

and all that so that's what that's not that annoying really um are you tight with other rappers um from the uk scene um does it work like that or do you tend to keep to yourselves i keep to myself quite a bit obviously i know stormzy a little bit yeah Yeah. But you wouldn't say to Stormzy, come over and we can play Scrabble or something. No. It doesn't really work like that. I don't know. I actually don't really know if it works like that, to be honest, because it's never something that I've...

That's not your style. There's never something that I've attempted to do, to be honest. But you know, the thing with me me is like, I have like, I feel like I have like trust issues in terms of like, not in terms of like people, but I just like, I've had loads of situations in the past where like, I've felt let down by people who felt betrayed. And like I don't, and I feel like when you're building like close relationships with people, you're almost giving them that power to be able to betray you or make you feel betrayed again.

So I like to like, even though I can like appreciate relationships and like friendships and everything, I don't really like to get too deep into that kind of stuff because I can't really control other people's actions and what other people do. But what do you think that is, what's that rooted in? Is it the feelings of like the family growing up or is it to do with going away and feeling abandoned? Yeah, just a bit of everything. When I was young, obviously, like all that the family

stuff and actually when I went away, I've had situations where I felt like I felt let down about kind of stuff and I thought that when you really have expectations of friendships and expectations of like people that's giving them like a leverage to Let you down if you're gonna say so I just thought that I put myself in a place where I just can't be surprised by anything Yeah, that's hard I just feel like I put myself in a place where I just can't be surprised by anything. Yeah, it's hard. Well, and with the level of success you have, you can't always trust

people's motivations. That's the other part of it. Yeah, I try not to think too deep into it though. Not day to day, like, so I don't let it affect my day or anything because I feel like that's how people like can almost borderline like start to overthink and get into like a bad space mentally. So at the start of my career I used to think about like that kind of stuff a lot more like about trusting people like especially with like my work that I do and whatnot but now I just like I just free flow it but I just like to maintain that like distance a little bit to make sure that I could never feel let down basically.

Before we wrap up, so what does the next, so you're busy at the moment what, doing mainly recording? I've started recording again already you know. For a new album? No, not for a new album, just in general. I don't really have like the best experience like, even though I had a great time recording the last album, I don't have the best experience pushing it out. Why not? With the record label and that kind of stuff.

What label is it? It came out on Columbia. Right. Columbia Records. Did you not feel they pushed it enough? I felt like they pushed it, but I felt like they didn't push it in the direction which I felt like I needed to push to to make the best out of the album because you know like when you're working with like a major label and like you have a vision

and they're very strong on their opinions and what they feel that the vision should be in like they have like the full control in terms of where they push the back end so that was very frustrating. Sure, so will you leave the label? I don't know. I don't know. I'm just like, obviously right now I'm just like, it's all the balls really in my court. Do what I want to do, but I'm just like... Are you out of contract? Yeah, I'm out of contract now.

So you could go where you want? Yeah. You could go independent. What do you think I should do? Oh man, I think you should follow your heart. Right? But I do think in this era, albums are much less important than they were and it's more about consistency of output and tracks landing and having impact rather than a single album. I think the album charts are slightly meaningless. Yeah, that's been the conversation that we've been having as well over the past couple of days with the people in question about, it's weird man, these kind of things fluctuate

innit, it's like, it could be that, that could be the situation this year and then all of a sudden next year, like, all of a sudden next year is a completely different situation. So that's the music industry Do you worry about like, you know as someone who's graduated from their old situation into a new one But how do you connect with people in a world where people have been listening to you for games? You know game spitting or lyrics about the streets like what do you what do you what you know, how do you speak about what's on your heart in a way that speaks to people now? It's just about like, just about being true to yourself. Like, obviously I know like what happens in my life

personally and then like my way, my views on things are changing. Like I'm saying I have a nephew now and I understand like the situations people might be coming up in a bit differently to, like, a bit differently to the reality before. So I was just about, like, just navigating that and just being true to myself as the journey continues.

Being true about, but you were also talking about granular detail about your life, right? You're big on detail. You know, like we said, like a documentary maker. So what are you documenting at this point? That's my aim. Like I was saying before, is to be a lot more positive. I want to speak about, even when I speak to my managers and that's what we've been discussing. It's like when I was making the album,

because I was doing a lot of reflecting on what I know, I almost felt like the first half of the album in the beginning was very depressing in some sort of way. But it's like things can get frustrating in a different kind of way like what we just spoke about in terms of like the record label and that but like we're eating better food, we're using nicer skin products. Yeah, so you could do an album about food and skin products? Yeah and like we're traveling to better places and we're experiencing, we're driving different like vehicles,

we're experiencing loads of different kind of things. So I feel like these are the kind of stuff that I can touch on more. But also at the same time, still remember like, where you've come from and still touch on those important topics, which people in those kind of environments would appreciate. So it's about finding the sweet spot in the middle. Yeah and maybe also like the lives of the people who either fell along the way or incarcerated or in different ways who need to be remembered.

Dude I've taken so much of your time, we're at 10 to 3. I've probably taken the piss a bit so thank you for bearing with the process. I really appreciate it. Do you feel okay? I feel happy. I'm fine. Have fun. And I'm really conscious of like not overdoing like not overdoing the whole Road narrative, you know, but at the same time it's just there. Yeah has to sort of be dealt with Yeah, it's kind of hard to bypass it to you. Yeah. I really appreciate your willingness to Dig into some of that. Yeah, man. It's cool, man to bypass it. Yeah, I really appreciate your willingness to. Dig into some of that. Yeah, it's cool, man.

Is OK. That's cool. Hi, it's me again, Louis Theroux back on my own this time. I hope you enjoyed that. I did. It's always a thrill talking to rappers because I'm a fan of rap and it's sort of like I get to be inside the genre, you know, as opposed to just listening and kind of getting insights into it. And just to say, in case it's not obvious, like I'm a fan of his music, like Hedy is a really talented, I don't know, I hope it came across, like he's a brilliant rapper, like rhythmically, thematically, his real life music obviously, but his use of cadences, rhymes, rhythmic schemes is really exceptional. Yes, this is me, 54 year old white man Louis Theroux doing a blurb for Heady One's raps. I don't think he needs that. Also, there's not that many

interviews with Heady One out there, so for him to talk openly about stuff that's kind of high-risk or certainly involves emotional exposure and maybe even some security exposure. Well, it just feels personal, right? That's not taken for granted. I appreciated that. Louis, what would you get on a chain? Millie the producer has written.

I'm not a chainy kind of guy. I'm not that blingy. I think you know that. I've also, I've got a weird thing about metal jewelry. I don't like it on me. I'm I don't love it on other people. But I live in a world where I don't get to make the rules. I know that's a kind of a weird thing to say we can maybe unpack that on another occasion. If I had to have a metal chain, I suppose I would it be if I want to to haha I'd get King Louie on it or Louis T maybe I should get three time BAFTA award-winning TV maker that's the

tumbleweed going by credits producer was Millie Chu the assistant producer was Amelia Gill the production manager was Francesca Bassett, the executive producer was Aaron Fellows, the presenter was... I can't incriminate myself. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a MINDHOUSE production for Spotify.