The Louis Theroux Podcast - S3 EP3: Trevor Noah on growing up during Apartheid, landing ‘The Daily Show’, and being friends with Bill Gates

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

Louis chats to South African comedian, writer and television host, Trevor Noah. Dialling in from New York, Trevor shares his memories of growing up during Apartheid in Johannesburg, landing the ‘The Daily Show’, and becoming friends with Bill Gates.  Warnings: Strong language, as well as adult themes including domestic violence. Listener discretion is advised. Visit spotify.com/resources for information and resources.    Links/Attachments:   ‘The Most Hated Family in America’, Louis Theroux Specials, iPlayer (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007clvf    Mind Your Language (TV Series)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075537/     Ikigai   https://positivepsychology.com/ikigai/     AI For Good Lab Microsoft  https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/group/ai-for-good-research-lab/     ‘The Great Mortality’, John Kelly (2005)  https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-great-mortality-john-kelly?variant=41000265449506     ‘Whites’, Louis Theroux’s Weird Weekends, iPlayer (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00b996d    'African Hunting Holiday’, Louis Theroux’s Weird Weekends, iPlayer (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b009sj0c     ‘Law and Disorder in Johannesburg’, Louis Theroux Specials, iPlayer (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00g1vdq/louis-theroux-specials-law-and-disorder-in-johannesburg     You Laugh But It’s True  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWBepNts1V4&t=2408s      Daywalker  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcyuIKzpYJQ    The Daily Show   https://www.youtube.com/thedailyshow     Born a Crime, Trevor Noah (2016)  https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/trevor-noah/born-a-crime/9781473635302/     ‘Tyla’s racial identity: South African singer sparks culture war’, BBC News, (2023)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-67505674       Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1212. Are we rolling? Hello, Louis Theroux here. How are you? Welcome to another episode of my podcast, The Louis Theroux Podcast. Today I'm speaking to comedian, writer and TV presenter, Trevor Noah. Born in Jauberg, there's more of that coming up, so apologies in advance. In 1984, Trevor had a remarkable childhood during apartheid in South Africa, the racist South African regime. It's all chronicled in his brilliant book, Born a Crime. It was illegal for black people and white people to be in a relationship, hence the title of the book.

His father was Swiss-German, his mother is... Oh Osa. Yes, that's actually a pretty good pronunciation. And at the time of Trevor's birth, his parents' interracial relationship was illegal. He spent his childhood walking the line between several different cultures. He was a successful stand-up comedian and actor in South Africa, then decided to go over to the US in 2011. He became the first South African stand-up to appear on The Tonight Show and The Late Show with David Letterman. Then he got his big break and offered to host the Daily Show on Comedy Central replacing Jon Stewart. We talk about that. We recorded the interview remotely in September 2024. Trevor had taken a break from his busy schedule and joined me from New York. There

were some issues with the camera at the beginning. There might be some tech people or elves, as I like to call them, wandering in and out of the screen. Don't worry, I docked their wages. It won't happen again. One of the things we talk about is what happened when Trevor's compatriot, Tyler, the talented R&B singer who had a huge hit with the track Water, broke America and her use of the term coloured, which I use in inverted commas but is a well established term in South Africa, but which in America has painful racial connotations. And she was criticised for using it by some Americans, which she, I think, understandably was baffled or maybe offended or confused by.

So that's something that we go into in some detail. Warning, there is strong language in the episode as well as adult themes, including domestic violence. But first, this. How's life? How's it all going? It's going well. How about yourself? Good. I'm excited to talk to you. There's a lot of ground to cover. I don't want to faff about. I never faff about. I'm a total pro. But it's a thrill to talk to you. Like you are a international icon. You are one of the most successful comedians in the world.

Does it feel weird hearing that? Well, no, you're used to that by now. No, no, I mean it's weird hearing it from you though. I mean I pretty much grew up on your videos, everything just like you traveling around the world causing trouble everywhere so. Stop it. You're flattering me and I'm not gonna fall for it. No, this is completely true, this is completely true.

I can't tell you the amount of times I have watched your videos talking to like far-rights and I mean now they seem so quaint versus like what we have today But you know those conversations you would have traveling to like some random part of America talking to you know Like proud members of the KKK or going to like some evangelical Hub where they were against everything gay. And yeah, so I literally, I'm not even saying that. That's amazing to hear that. I won't pretend that I didn't secretly hope you might have seen one or two of my things,

but I try not to let my dreams cloud my editorial judgment. When you saw, if you've seen things of mine, would you have seen those later on? Like were they on in South Africa? So I probably, no, I definitely saw them later on. Everything in South Africa, we had a strange world where, you know, obviously in apartheid there's no free speech and we don't get anything. And then we get this deluge of content from all over the world. But I didn't know growing up how far behind we were.

So I watched a lot of British television that coincides with the British television that people were watching, I guess, in the 80s or 90s. But to me, that is my childhood. Do you know what I mean? So I have like a strange reference point with a lot of people from the UK where I'll like have the same shows that are my favorites as like my friends parents but not my friends yes what would we give me some examples like one of my favorite shows was a show called

mind your language do you remember that show stop it was it seriously that really is a throwback that's interesting so you're delayed your kind of lag like being on a star where the light takes a long time to travel, right? Exactly. Your TV beams were arriving about 20 years late. Yeah. Which puts us in sync, more or less. Describe the show, because it was kind of politically incorrect by today's assessment. Yeah, but I've rewatched it and I've realized that like, maybe, I think you used the right term, maybe politically incorrect or maybe some people will be sensitive, but I think it still holds up.

It was a show about an English, a night school, and this in particular was an English class. And so you had this English teacher who was, it was like working class, but he was very like clean in his English, obviously. And then you had people from all over the world who were trying to learn how to speak the English language and they were all immigrants into the UK. And so you had like this Italian guy and you had like a French woman and you had an Indian man and like a man from Pakistan and it was like a whole group. And look, obviously they were the tropes of each country, you know.

So the French woman was only about like sex and just like being romantic and then the Indian man and the Pakistani man were constantly at odds with each other. But I don't know, I mean, comedy exists in the world of tropes. So maybe it wasn't as nuanced as we would like our comedy to be today. But I don't watch it now and think to myself, oh, that was disgusting. It was just like, you know, a simple introduction to cultures from around the world. And I don't know, I think a lot of the topics they got into, they scratched at something deeper.

And so I appreciated it then and I can still appreciate it now. I don't expect people from the past to be as advanced as we are or how as advanced as we think we are today because then that means there's been no progress so that would be weird. Yeah and advanced even that word advanced might need a red flag on it because I'm sure and will be looked back on and maybe you know these debates are still being litigated to some extent whether we've inhibited comedy by being overly vigilant. But before we go into the weeds on that, well, I think what we should say first was, how are you doing? What's going on with you? Do you want to just fill us in? Oh, I'm doing well. That's a funny segue.

I'm doing well. I'm in a stage of life where I'm trying to pursue two things. You know, one is a simple endeavor, and that is like just trying to make every encounter that I have with another person hopefully make them feel a little bit better. And then sort of like trying to add value, if I can put it that way. And then the second thing I'm doing

is just finding the little things that bring me joy in the process. That's what that's all I'm living in right now. You know, I realized at some point, you know, one of the one of the upsides of living in America is that you live in a country that constantly propels you forward and encourages you to take everything and get everything and be as big as possible. The downsides are exactly that, you know, it like the overconsumption bleeds into your life. And so it becomes more than just the overconsumption of goods and services.

It's also the overconsumption of success. And now I'm just trying to live in a smaller world, maybe a little bit of Ikegai and and and just try and enjoy what I used to find so much pleasure in and and that was the small things like I was I was easily the undisputed champion of Finding all of the meaning in in a meaningless day and I'm slowly trying to get back to that You threw in a Japanese word, which I'm ashamed to say I'm not familiar with. Oh, Ikigai. It's the practice of getting like gradually better day by day, right?

So it's just a beautiful philosophy of don't try and just be better. Just get a little 1% better, just a tiny little bit, tiny, tiny, tiny little bit better every day. Try and improve on the thing you did yesterday. But don't look at the big picture. Just keep on trying to get a little bit better. If you did 10 push-ups, try and see if you can do 11. Maybe you'll get to 12.

And every day you're doing that. And the same with your writing, or the same with how you spend time with your friends. And I extend it to everything. It's a nice reminder that my goals are not as far from me as I think they are because my goal is only 1% away. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah I like that. Is most of your professional energy taken up with touring at the moment? No, I've broken it up now. So I... last year it was 100% touring I would say. This year it has been I would say 30-40% touring and then maybe 30% working in like tech and

then 30% like working on my book and writing other things. That's how I break it down and then 10% acting like I'm working, but really just scrolling on the internet. 10%, that's pretty, that's not a bad proportion. It might be higher in my case. When you say 30% in tech, what does that mean? I love working in tech. So I've been working with Microsoft for,

geez, now it's gonna go on eight years. You know, now I've been lucky enough to just like spend time with everything. I work with their philanthropy team. I spend time with their AI for good labs. It's cool because it's like a university, but I get to add value at the same time. And so they gave me a fun title, Chief Questions Officer,

which I think means I'm an idiot, but they wanted to give me like a nice title. But yeah, it's just been like a, it's really been a wonderful break from everything else that I do, you know? I love that. You're kind of like somewhere between a savant and a jester and just an ideas guy and just a cheerleader. I think you've met, have you met Bill Gates? I have, yeah. Would you say you're friendly with him? Yeah, definitely.

Do you think he, you know on the internet, I mean to look for logic on the internet is a fool's errand, right? But do you think he gets a bad rap? Oh, he does, he does definitely. But I think he, and I've spoken to him about this he you know the thing with with Bill is he's so sort of like logical in what he's doing and how he's doing it that sometimes he takes for granted the value of appearances and I can get that coming from like a tech world like if you if you want to see like who Bill Gates was go back and watch some of his stuff around when Microsoft was going through its antitrust case back in the day when they were being

broken up. He was pretty headstrong about things. He was just like, no, I don't care. This is what we're doing. This is how we are. I think maybe that's been his gift, but that's probably also been his curse is that he's a little too logical and straightforward. In his head, if it makes sense, it makes sense. You know, so if he goes, he thinks to himself, he's like, this is the way we're going to fight

malaria and we've talked to the experts and this is how we roll it out. I think sometimes he hasn't given as much credence or value to the idea of people accepting that this solution to malaria is actually good for them. And yeah, Bill Gates has definitely been turned into like a boogeyman on the internet, you know. He's like one of the top 10 boogeymen and I think the internet narrative is that he was trying to chip people by, you know, by stealth using the COVID vaccine as a way of doing it, right? And thereby usher in some kind of one world government? Or I don't really know.

It's extraordinary how, what an important role he occupies in a certain conspiracy narrative. I wonder if he knows that. But I think he does. And I asked him about it. I asked him about, I love asking him about these things,

even when like when he was on my podcast, I actually asked him about it blatantly. I was like, okay, are you chipping us? Even though I think some of these things are ridiculous, it's like, help me understand why are you the largest farm owner in America? Are you trying to, you know, rig the food system? What are you doing? You know, and then he explains it. And then you ask, I ask another question.

I go like, what are you doing? Or why are you trying to microchip people? And he, and he answered the question. The thing is he he's not. But what's more interesting to me than the truth of it is how it's helped me understand the narratives that we create and shape in the world. And how it's almost made me realize that one of the downsides of losing religion in the world is that we've now had to create devils where before we had one. Before the devil was like this beautiful clear concept that everyone agreed upon and every Sunday we would check in with each other to be like,

we're still fighting the devil? Everyone's fighting the devil. All right, we'll see you next week. And I think maybe it's a human need. I don't know. We almost need a devil. All right, we'll see you next week. And I think maybe it's a human need. I don't know. We almost need a devil. Otherwise, why are things happening? And why are they going wrong? And who's doing this? And who's the idea that it's just happening, I think, troubles the human mind. Like it, you know, makes us feel helpless. Yeah. So you have to find the devil. And when you find the devil, it becomes so much easier to live your life because now when it goes wrong, you go, it's because of the devil. It's that devil. And now we've just made those devils people, I think. Well, I think it was always people as well. And, you know, during the pandemic, I read

a book called The Great Mortality, which was about the Black Death, 1347 to 49, when a third of the European population died. And when people started dying mysteriously from plague, job one was, well, we don't really know what's causing this. Let's round up the Jews and basically throw them down a well, right? Oh, damn. I mean, literally, not across the board, like there were, I mean, in a way, it's more instructive to reflect on the fact that there were some people who said like, this is crazy and barbaric, like even in the 14th century, but there'd be enough people to say, well, maybe, but maybe not, it's worth a shot.

And the level of atrocities leveled at the Jewish community was really instructive and kind of extraordinary and shocking. And so I think it's always been the case that we've looked for human scapegoats, but the idea being that, oh, they're enthralled to the devil. I mean, in a sense, we've got a slightly more secularized version of that now by trying to find people who are, you know, active sort of malefactors. Yeah, yeah. We talked a little bit about my programs. Embarrassingly, I'm going to spin it back to that for a second. I made three programs in South Africa. Yes. One was in the 90s where I interviewed Eugene Terblange, who is the leader of the far right

AWB, who were leading a last-ditch attempt to preserve some kind of white racist foothold. Needless to say, it didn't fall their way. Although there is a funny little place called Orania. Have you ever been there? I've never been, nor do I wish to go. It's an interesting test study, Orania have you ever been there? I've never been nor do I wish to go It's an interesting test study or on yet, you know Would you be allowed? I don't even know what the rules are Yeah, I don't know if they wouldn't allow you but I don't know if they it's a weird one. It's it's a kind of mini township of Africanas right it but it's not not just off reconnais

It's it's specifically people who have said this is how we wish to live No one who is not us should be here. If you're not white, and if you're not even Afrikaans white, we don't want you here. This is our enclave, and we're building this within another place and another space. And I don't know, it's weird. I've had so many conflicted feelings about this

because sometimes I say, well, isn't that what you want? It's like all the races to go to one place together and then just do their own thing and not bother anyone. Sometimes I think that and then I'm like, yeah but then in the long term, what are the fallouts? What are the effects? Is it gonna grow beyond that? Because at some point that piece of land

doesn't become enough and then, you know, as soon as you have land that is decided on. The British, it was once again that you don't like the British. The level of animosity I got as a British person from the Boers and the Afrikaners was extraordinary, which is a part of, actually it's a blot on one of the many on British history is what the British Empire did as part of their land grab and then kind of used the rights of the indigenous community as a sort of moral leverage, but they just wanted the diamond. The Brits just wanted the diamonds. I should say British, the English was it.

That's all they wanted. I love it that in the robot, you turn left at the robot. You know, like the South African lingo doesn't get enough people. No one knows. You get in the bucket, you got left at the first robot, then there's another robot, right? You know what I'm talking about. I know exactly what you're talking about. We're the only two probably within a hundred miles. Yeah.

People in radio land, a robot. What is a robot, Trevor? A robot is a traffic light. In their defense it was. It was robotic in that it moved from one color to the other with no control from a human being. So for all intents and purposes it is yeah I mean technically you could say it but it's a it's robotic it's a robot. I like that. What about a Bucky? So a Bucky is I guess what what in the US maybe what people would call not really a pickup truck because it's it's smaller. Is it? I thought it was a pickup truck. No but it's a smaller. In Australia they call it a Ute. Yeah yeah you see it's closer to a Ute. Is it? It is closer was a pickup truck. No, but it's a smaller... In Australia they call it a ute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see it's closer to a ute.

Is it? It is closer to a ute, but a pickup truck... But not in the Jamaican sense. We're going all over the world. Then the second one I made was we used later, it was about trophy hunting in Limpopo province. And then the third one was about hillbrow and also Deep Slute. And that was about vigilantism and the ways in which the civilian population were attempting to fill the gaps left by an underzealous police force, like a police force that had said,

you know what, what happens over there happens over there. You know, they can worry about that. I'll dial in the accent in a minute. That's a very good accent. Stop it. No, no, I'm being serious. That's one of the hardest ones to pull off. I don't even know which one I was doing. You don't think it's wrong. You were doing me one well. You were doing it well. From you that's high praise.

You and Matt Damon are the only people who seem to have gotten that right. I love your accents, man. And so that was more about the collapse of sort of the law and order and the ways in which either mob mentalities and or vigilantism had filled the gap. So how I have a little familiarity with South African culture, but I really find interesting, like we in the UK have this sort of double edged relationship with America, like it's both, it's sort of everything we aspire to, but everything we purport to look down on as well. And I can only imagine for a South African, America is even more remote in certain respects. And maybe it doesn't feel like that, because there's this culture coming in that you're consuming, be it Michael Jackson, or hip hop,

or the movies. But to them, like they don't know a cockney from an Australian. So a South African, what do they make of that? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it depends on where you go and when you were to go there. But you're not wrong. I mean, I remember when I first came to the US, the idea of any African, you know, forget South Africa, it's just from Africa. First of all, Africa for many people was a country. For some people it still is. And then Africa was an idea.

And that idea was a place sort of frozen in time, you know, preserved in carbonite. And they pictured people in loincloths running around and you know us having no technology and it's a pretty pervasive idea. I think that's you know diminished over time. And I think in fairness to people you know I used to think it was like an ignorance and then I realized no it's just you have the information you have at hand and you know your reality is shaped by what you are given or what you can see. So I think pre the internet, like real real internet, I think that was a pervasive idea.

You know and I think over time you know with its entertainment or whether it's just the world we live in, people have sort of had a broader idea of what South Africa is and what Africa is. And I mean, even things like the Black Panther movie, as crazy as it sounds, changed how people saw and think of Africa. Like I distinctly remember Black Panther coming out. And then in the months and years that came afterwards, people just having this different idea of what was

in Africa and what wasn't, even though it was based on a fictitious idea. I believe it. You know, there's parts of your story that are well documented. And just to say in passing, before I joined the call, I was watching an old documentary that was sort of about the time when you were building up to doing your first one man special in South Africa. I can't remember the name of the documentary, but it was on YouTube. You laugh but it's true?

You laugh but it's true, yeah. And what strikes me just now is that you look the same age now, your hair's a little longer. Whatever you're doing, your skincare regime, I don't know what it is, but it's working. But it was funny to see we would have only been about 22 maybe, 23 years old. Yeah, 22, 23, somewhere there. You were taking the world of standup, the then nascent world of standup in South Africa by storm, ruffling a few feathers, some older standups. Mel Miller was one who was saying like, this guy's arrogant.

Like he did, he was, people were really having a pop at you, but you seemed quite inured to that. You were like, hate has gone on hate. Not that wasn't verbatim, but that seemed to be the attitude. And then what I'm curious about though, is how you left having more or less conquered through your, you know, pure skills as a standup, both physical and observational and mimicry.

So the big step, okay, sorry, it's the world's longest question. The big step I'm presuming 2011 you decide to go to America. Is that basically what happened and you thought okay I need I need a bigger pond? It's funny the documentary you're speaking about, I met that filmmaker, his name is David Meyer, and I met him when he was coming to South Africa. His original plan was to make a Film for his thesis for at film school and he knew a South African and he was coming to you know Do this documentary on comedy in South Africa and what it meant and how it had evolved

Post-apartheid and this whole thing and he was talking to every comedian a few things went wrong in what he was trying to do. And so he was left with no subjects to follow. Initially I had said no. And his friend begged me and said, please look, there's no one else he can follow. He spent all of his money on this film. Can he follow you around?

And I was like, all right, just don't annoy me. And he came along for the ride. And we became good friends. You know, this lovely guy from North Carolina who was living in LA at the time. And at some point he said to me, have you ever considered doing comedy in the US? And I was like, no, not really. And he's like, dude, I think you'd be like really good. Like, you're funny and when I show people your stuff they laugh.

And I was like, yeah, but I don't need to your stuff they laugh and I was like, yeah, but I don't need to come to America. And he's like, dude, I think you should just try it. And that's what I did. You think his nudge played a real significant role? Oh, I don't think. I don't think it is. I had no inclination.

You had management at that time, right? I think there's a guy who's in the documentary, I can't remember his name. Takunda, yeah, but I mean, management in South Africa was just your friend who sort of came with you to some gigs and fielded a few calls but management is a strong word because there was such a fledgling and still is. Comedy in South Africa you know occupies a wonderful space where it is still a raw art form where you're really doing it for fun so it hasn't become like the business that it is in like the UK or especially in the US.

So even having a manager was like a cute idea. It's not a real thing. It was really just a great friend who was navigating this wild world with you. You know, and I think maybe that's what I loved about comedy. And I'm lucky that that was my formation was I never saw it as a career. I always saw it as this thing that is like, it's like one of my favorite hobbies, and I think it's ridiculous, and I love doing it.

So I never thought of going somewhere. I didn't need to go somewhere to do it, because I can do it wherever there's people, and there are people in South Africa, and we have microphones, we have speakers, we have a lot of funny things to speak about, so I wouldn't have gone. You first experience of stand-up was at a comedy club where a friend said,

Tripp, you're funnier than all these guys, why don't you get up there, right? According to legend. Yeah, but that sounds like a little... What happened was this, you have to understand the comedy landscape in South Africa, because if you tell the story like that, it just seems like arrogant and weird. What happened was my best friend and my cousin and I, we all live together in the same house. In JoBurg? And this was in Johannesburg. And so one day my friend Nico says to me, hey man, we're

going to go watch comedy. Do you want to come join us? And I was like, comedy? What do you, what is that even? And he said, oh, these guys, they tell jokes. And I was like, I have no interest. You were working as what at this time? So at that time I was working as a I was probably Presenting a few television programs like a there was a kids television program that I that I worked on right So you like sort of on TV like you were show business. Yeah, but again even you see business I don't think is the right word to use for what we were doing in South Africa It didn't make you famous. It was just a job that you did and you you know Fame wasn't what you got from it. You just got a paycheck and you carried on and that paycheck by the way

Didn't bring you like fortune. You you just paid your rent and you and you kept it moving So when my friends one day I acquiesced and they said you've just come with us to the show and we go to the show And they knew all the comedians it because it's such a small group of people I mean at the time in Johannesburg I remember counting I think we had a total of 30 comedians like people who called themselves comedians and performed comedy there were 30 in all of Johannesburg and so my friends knew them they knew my friends guys would go, tell jokes. Some nights were just horrible. And it wasn't even a comedy club. They were given access to a part of a bar that had its worst night,

which was a Tuesday night. No one came out to drink. And so they said these guys can come and tell jokes. And I went and I joined. And that night in particular particular the comedians were having a rough time and my cousin and my friend got a little tipsy and They started heckling the comedians who were their friends And so one of the comedians came to our table after like in the in the in the break His name is giddy born him loads He still he still puts on shows and he came over and he's like a guys. He's like a guys. Come on, man

Why are you guys heckling man? He's's like you know how tough this is and my cousin and my friend are like yo bro he's like you're terrible you're terrible man what's going on these jokes are terrible Gidibone said if you think it's so easy he's like if you think it's so easy why don't you get on stage why don't you get on stage and then my cousin said well I'm not funny but my cousin is and he pointed at me and he's like he's funnier than all of you and I was sober and now all of a sudden I'm thrust into this this little Spat I'm not even friends with these people and Giddy-Bone goes like he's like, okay, you think you're so big

Why don't you come on stage? And I was like, look, I didn't say anything. He's like no come on stage I was like, I I really don't I don't want to do that and he's like, oh because you scared Everyone's got a big mouth until they challenged. You're a chicken chicken, yeah, your chicken. And then now it became like a challenge. It's it was such a stupid thing. But it was so much fun. And I stepped up on what we call a stage. But really, it was like a few tables put in in a corner of a room. And I got on top of them. And, you know, and I started saying things. And really, it was my cousin who was shouting out, he would say, Tell them the story about the Nigerians who are fixing your VCR and and then my other friend was like tell them the other story and he's like the

other friend was like tell them that story and so they would shout the request I would tell the story to the crowd people laughed my friends would shout the request I would tell the story to the crowd they would laugh and that's literally how it started. And you immediately felt pretty comfortable up there? Oh yeah, I've never felt more at home. Than being on stage? Yeah, I've never felt more at home. It was like discovering a place that I had always been but didn't remember going to.

It was really strange. I even remember when I did comedy in the UK for the first time. This was two years into my career. That was the first time I bombed. I didn't even know that bombing was a concept. I was on stage and you walked up and you told people things and they laughed. And I was like, this is what a wonderful life this is. And that's all I did I didn't get paid and I did more shows than any other comedian in the country like everyone knew if You want someone to come and tell jokes at your show and you don't have money call this guy. His name is Trevor Noah He'll come he'll drive himself He he asks no questions and he does come you were doing it because you're enjoying it or to hone the

Craft or there was the craft or... Oh, there was no craft. There was something there. In my head there was no craft. It was just everything I would do was based on what I had experienced that week and what I was talking about with my friends on the way to the show. And just to mention in passing that the show that you eventually arrived at, that first one-man show, Thewalker, it's extraordinary and still holds up. And I just enjoyed, like, as a sort of almost feels like intimate to the point of feels vaguely intrusive, like I feel like I'm eavesdropping on a conversation that's taking place within South Africa. There's so much specificity about different languages, different tropes, habits, ways of speaking, that it

feels like, oh, I'm really getting an inside look at what South Africa is really like. As well as obviously being funny, there's a lot of physical comedy. Were you conscious early on of having a gift and what, if you had a gift, like what it was? No, I really wasn't. Because I think for most of my life it was a it wasn't a gift It was a curse, you know, my my mother tells me of how everyone everyone Loathed the moment when I would walk into a room like everyone in my family I mean when I was a little child they were like if Trevor walks into a room just Pray to God that you've stocked up on all the energy you need

Because they could say he has a radio in his chest that's what they said they were like this kid walks into a room and he just does not stop and he you know and I guess funny was part of it so in school they always said Trevor is just he's he's too much and he's not disrespectful, but he just doesn't stop making people laugh and he doesn't stop cracking jokes in class and he doesn't... I just I was like this is my whole life. I've always found funny both essential and and wildly entertaining because it's such an unpredictable thing that you that you are Interacting with you know out of thin air thing that you that you are interacting with you know out of thin air you are you're sort of plucking at these strands that send reverberations out that creates

these convulsions in other human beings I've always found it fascinating in myself and in other people and it makes people feel good I think that's that that was a bonus it's like no one was crying no one was feeling bad you know so the teacher was saying hey, you know, so the teacher was saying, hey stop that, but everyone in the class laughed. What a wonderful experience. You know, scrolling forward, so when you're in America, having made the leap, according to what I read, it didn't flow all your way straight away, right? And there may even have been a time when you thought this

isn't working out, like basically a better head back and Give up on the American dream. Is that correct? No, I I don't think it was a dream in that way. It was more me Not falling for for the for the allure of the American dream, you know There's this idea and and you you know, you said it earlier on like many people even in the UK will go, ah America we look down on in so many ways but then I'll speak to them and they'll go, oh but I would love to live there.

I would love to work there. I would I would speak to British comedians who dream of going through the US and applying their trade and there's something enticing about it. And I'll be lying to you if I said I had that because in South Africa I had my friends, I had my familiarities, my food, as you said our cultures, I was doing comedy in English and then playing with six or seven other languages in that English show. What a, you know, and now I lose all of that when I travel to another country. So yeah, it's like you've lost all your superpowers.

Yeah. To mention that it's, you know, America's not the easiest place to crack if you're not a, it's hard enough if you're American, but if you're from somewhere else, how you, I mean, I feel like I'm galloping forward, but at a certain point you get hired as a contributor to The Daily Show, America's leading, I guess, satirical daily news program, then hosted by John Stewart. Again, according to legend, you came onto John's radar and he looked at some of your tape, he saw one joke and said, yep, let's bring him in. And then stood up and said, that guy is going to take my chair one day. Have you heard? Yeah, I've heard the story.

I've heard I've heard different versions of the verbiage, but it's pretty much the same story. I heard he watched something of mine on YouTube. And he said, if that guy wanted to, he could do my job. Which I think is John being very kind. Um, but also I, in now, now that I know John Stewart and, and I'm lucky enough to call him a friend and a mentor. I think John always saw something in me that I see in him as we have something

in, in, in common, despite all of our differences and it goes way beneath the surface and it's Sometimes it's how we see the world or how we see the conversations that the world is having or so So maybe that's what he saw in me It's funny with the point that you've galloped to is now me. I'm out of America at this point Basically, I'll speed you through it. I went to 2010 2011. I'm like in the US. I'm doing comedy in random places Because of David Meyer and and these shows that he puts on for me in LA I now get management in America and they go you should do comedy and now I am but very quickly I realized this is like a it's a it's a it's a heartless slog. You're in random towns in America

Depressingly going from one city to the next, begging people to come watch your show and barely earning enough to fly back home and really just reset and get ready for the next show. You're completely living from hand to mouth. And I was just like, this is not the life I'm looking for. But even though people were selling it to me, I was like, no, this is not what I'm looking for. I'm not trying to be famous.

And I don't care to blow up quote-unquote in America and One day I was talking to a friend of mine Neil Brennan who's a really great comedian wonderful writer creator of many things He was also starting his stand-up career at that time and I remember having a conversation with him in Denver, Colorado and We're just commiserating and then Neil said to me. Why don't you go home? He said, why are you doing this? He said, I'm doing this because it's sort of all I have and I have to try. He said, why are you doing this? And I was like, yeah you're right. I don't know why I'm doing this and so I left. And then in the years that followed I was performing more, all of us, now the

UK was growing as a market for me. So now I was performing everywhere from Birmingham to Newcastle and Brighton all the way through. Like, I was performing everywhere in the UK. I was doing shows in Australia. I was performing in the United Arab Emirates. America was gone as a concept to me and I promise you I didn't feel like I'd lost anything. And then one day I got a call from John Stewart. And when he called me

I will never forget where I was. I was standing in Harrods in London. I was in one of like the lower levels in Harrods where they sell technology because I we never had anything like that in South Africa and I mean if you've never been to Harrods just go for the spectacle and I remember I was standing Louie in front of a, was an underwater moped or scooter, whatever you want to call it. Essentially you sit under the sea with a bubble over your head and at the time it cost a hundred thousand pounds and I remember looking at it and I was like how long in would I have to work to get a hundred thousand pounds? I was like how long in would I have to work to get a hundred thousand

pounds I was like I would never be able to earn it but I was like but I need this thing and I just stood there watching it and my phone rang it was an unknown number from America I answered and the voice on the other side was John Stewart's and that was the first time we spoke he invited me to the show I politely declined because I had a UK tour that I was doing and I was enjoying my life in South Africa. And he was really gracious enough to not be offended by me declining but he instead said, he said, okay, if you're ever in New York, look me up. And I was like, all right, I'll do that. And then when I was

in New York, he reached out again. He's like, you're in New York. I was like, all right, I'll do that. And then when I was in New York, he reached out again. He's like, you're in New York. I was like, ah, this guy's relentless. And then he invited me to hang out and that's literally how it began. I walked in the building. I could not believe how smart he and his team were. And I also didn't understand half

of what they were talking about. You know, what is a filibuster? What is gerrymandering? Who is Mitch McConnell? What's a John Boehner? What is happening? I was like, I don't know about this world. And then John said to me, do you want to do something?

And I said, no. I said, no, thank you. Your world is very, this is not me. And we had another conversation about Africa and laughing about my experience in New York and then John said why don't we do that he said this exact thing that you just said to me why don't we do that on the show and that was my first appearance on the Daily Show was a conversation I had with John just walking through the building

laughing about being in New York and you know being shocked at how terrible the roads were I'd like come all the way from Africa to experience the worst roads I'd ever seen. And that was the Genesis, and that's how it began. I mean, how was your experience on The Daily Show? I mean, just to contextualize it, because we have a lot of UK listeners who may not even be that familiar.

Obviously, it had been around a while. Initially, it was Craig Kilbourne that was the host, then John Stewart took it over and took it to the moon. He remade it in his own image and became such a trusted and beloved truth teller. And he sort of took it beyond the realms of ordinary comedy to the point where he became a sort of voice of sanity at a time when things in politics were going really crazy. And he'd also do a lot of great coverage of media. He did a lot of takedowns of Fox News. You take it over, you're less well known

to the broad public. You're coming into something that's, you're putting on a pair of shoes that have been fashioned to fit someone else, right? Then just to reflect in passing, then there's a mini drama over some old tweets. And then that became, so it was like, he's no John Stewart was the first part of the narrative. There's a mini drama over some old tweets. He's No John Stewart was the first part of the narrative.

The second one was like, oh, and now he's made some jokes about fat people and some other stuff. How was all of that for you? Oh, it was everything a roller coaster ride is. But that makes it sound quite fun. Yeah, well, I was about to say the thing about roller coasters that makes it sound quite fun yeah that was about to say the thing about roller coasters that makes them fun is that you know that you're on them yeah but if you blindfolded somebody put a bag over their head and

then like whisk them away and put them on a roller coaster but didn't tell them what it was and they'd never experienced it they would think that they are about to die at every turn and then there would be moments where they'd be like I think I'm having fun. But that's what it was. It was a whirlwind. Because to put it in the world of the UK, it's like coming in and taking over a beloved show,

like QI for instance. And all of a sudden everyone goes, the new host of QI is going to be Albert Grape. And everyone's like, who's Albert Grape? And it's like, well well he's from another country and he's hosting QI. So yeah, immediately there was a mad dash to figure out who I am and I didn't understand it

because The Daily Show didn't hold that place in my heart. You know, which I always say is probably the only reason I was stupid enough to say yes to it. Many people said no, a lot of people don't know that side of the story. That, a ton of people were approached to host The Daily Show. I think everyone from Chris Rock to Amy Poehler and Amy Schumer and I mean tons of people were approached and I think everyone said no. Everyone was like that is the hardest show. We would never say yes.

Why would we give our lives up to do that? Everybody said no and I guess literally I think because it did not stand in the same esteem for me I had visited it But after every single show that I had done at The Daily Show I went back to South Africa and I carried on living my life And what excited me most about it was I wonder if I can inject more international news into The Daily Show. I wonder if I can talk more about other countries. And I wonder if we can become more digital.

Like, it's only on TV. I wonder if there's a way for this thing to exist on YouTube. And so that was actually the thing that I was pursuing. It wasn't The Daily Show itself, but it was this idea of trying to not modernize, but just slightly alter this idea of a show and that's why I said yes and it was terrible in the beginning, absolutely terrible. It was first who is this guy? He shouldn't have it. He's a nobody. Where is he from? And then it was like his comedy is horrible and then people

would take tweets of mine, old tweets and the funny thing about the tweets was like people never gave it the context, which I don't expect them to. But Twitter has had many evolutions, you know, I mean, we're in one right now, I feel. But when Twitter first started, it was a status update platform. If you remember, it was just, you know, Trevor is, Louis is. And then slowly over time, it morphed intoed into like a short joke platform. And that's sort of where I built my followers.

And it was really funny and it was really well-meaning. And I would jot down the genesis of ideas on the platform as sort of like a notebook for myself that I would keep for doing jokes later. It wasn't even like like this is the joke. It was just like, just write this down, just to bookmark it as a concept. And it was really small back then. It was, you know, everyone following you sort of knew you. It wasn't what it is.

It definitely wasn't what it is today and how it's evolved into like a news platform slash. Yeah, you know, I don't even know that that doesn't even need that much unpacking. Like I get that. I feel as though we're over that whole idea of, oh, we sent a tweet that sounded a little bit rude about such and such in 2011. It feels as though I'd like to believe that that's no longer kind of worthy of much interest. I am curious whether-

I think it's Liz. Do you think so? Yeah, I think it still is and I think it's because we don't understand that social media has evolved into something more than what we think it is. We still treat it, I think, like a cute little me-you-friend connect and that's how it's sold to us, but it's not that. It's a strange tool that has this pervasive way of making people bump into the one thing of another person that they will hate. And so I think we may be over one version of it, but I only see it getting worse in different ways. I have yet to read a series of tweets from people on, let's say, an issue like Israel-Palestine that has brought nuance and has brought a level of understanding from

one person to the other. Now it just seems like it's just inflames. So I honestly, respectfully, I don't think we're over the thing. I just think it's going to take different shapes and forms and some will be more destructive to us than others. ["The Last Supper"] How are you feeling? How's your energy? All good? Wonderful. Good. I want to go back. The sands of time are trickling. I'm really intrigued by the mosaic that is South African racial politics. Then America, which I love America, I'm really intrigued by the mosaic that is South African racial politics, and then America, which I love America, I'm half American, it tends to see the world through American eyes,

I mean that's understandable. The South African artist Tyler recently fell afoul of perceived sort of constructions that Americans make about race and specifically on the use of the term coloured. Yeah, yeah. Did you follow this? What did you make of all of that? Yeah, you know why I hated it? Because I felt like any system of oppression, you know, I sometimes picture like a villain or a treacherous beast that is terrorizing a populace. That's how I see it. And you know there's always that moment in the movie or in the story where the beast is felled and as it descends into the depths of the ocean or as it falls off a cliff, its

tentacles reach up one last time and grab a few people who thought that it was completely over and they're sort of like impaled or dragged to the depths. And it's like... Well, the Balrog did that to Gandalf in the first Lord of the Rings film. Exactly. It's like just when you thought it was over, and then it's like, oh, no, one additional... One tentacle.

I feel like when I watched the Tyler thing, I felt that about Apartheid. I was like, damn you, Apartheid. You know, we're out here living our best lives, and Tyler's out here conquering the world and putting out amazing music and then your little tentacle of confusing racial dynamics has now thrust her into a conversation that's far more complicated than the internet would ever allow because it's so hard to explain this to people you know and I it's funny when you talk about day walker my first special one of my jokes was about this was about the perception of race and colored and not colored and so for people listening to understand this the apartheid government

Developed a system to oppress people based on the color of their skin one of the more insidious and genius elements of apartheid was that it realized in order to oppress a majority of people, you had to make sure that they were constantly a minority. And so because white people were a minority in South Africa, they didn't have the quote unquote sort of luxury that America had of just saying if you have one drop of blood that is from a black person, you are black. They couldn't afford to do that because then very quickly the whole country would be black and they would be up against

you know, insurmountable odds. Instead they said no, you are not just black. You are the tribe that you're from. So for instance, my family, Posa, right? Posa is my mother's tribe. And so if you were Posa, you lived in the Khosa homelands, as they call them. And that's where you were restricted to. And you could move to some places, but that's really where you were supposed to be. And so you Zulu and you Tzwana and you Tonga and you, and they moved and everyone stayed in it. So even amongst black people, there was a separation of what your blackness meant, you

know, and some of it was worked because it acknowledged, funny enough, the complexities of blackness. And that is like, black isn't just a flat idea, there's culture that's involved in it. So that's part of why it worked. That's why I said it's an insidious, genius system. And then the apartheid government had this sticky issue to deal with. What do you do with the product of people who have sex and they're not the same race? Primarily white people and black people or white people and the natives as they called them because despite what the apartheid government was telling everybody, it was possible for

a white person to have sex with a black person and it was possible for them to have children, which was a terrible thing for the apartheid government because fundamentally they were telling people That people were sort of different species in many ways and so this now was undermining that theory And so what they did was they decided that this skin tone that I have by the way, they would call this colored and So even in my family as Trevor According to the apartheid government. My father's a white man, they'd go white. My mother's a black woman, black, posse, tribe. And then they would go, this child is colored.

And that's why I was born a crime, because I wasn't allowed to be, my parents weren't allowed to be a couple. And the way my mother got around it, she just always found a way to navigate systems brilliantly. Because they were, I think because they were ridiculous, she used logic. She just told the doctors, because babies, when babies are born your skin color is really hard to pin down. She just told the doctors that her father, my father was from Swaziland. And she basically said, no, he's a light skinned black man from Swaziland. And so on my birth certificate till this day, it says that I'm Swazi. Doesn't say that I'm Khosla, doesn't say that I'm black, doesn't say that I'm colored, it says that I'm Swazi.

And that was how my mom was able to circumvent any suspicion in the beginning of my life. But now as Trevor, I grew up in this country. When people see me in the townships, funny enough, they used to think I was white. They didn't think I was colored. So people would see me walk through the streets. Kids would scream, literally, Louis, they'd scream running down the road in the opposite direction that there was a white man approaching. Now, I wasn't white and I wasn't a man.

I'm like a six, seven-year-old kid walking down the street. In fact, earlier, when I was like four maybe even, I'm walking down the road and they're screaming because they've never seen anybody who is not black other than the police who are white. And for a lot of my life people thought I was white. Obviously my family didn't think this. Then when we moved later on, we moved to a colored area which was the mixed tone. You know like in the UK they just say mixed right?

They'll just say like mixed. But we move to an area where imagine if mixed was forced to be with mixed because mixing wasn't allowed. That's sort of what happened in South Africa. So now instead of just one generation that's mixed, you now have multiple generations where if you go back multiple steps, those people are also mixed. So sometimes people can't even really pinpoint a white or black person in their family. Their whole family is colored, which is mixed, which is unique in the world, by the way. We haven't really seen that take place anywhere else. Not even Brazil, you don't think? Maybe not.

Not really in the same way, because there they'll still like intermix. I mean, they'll have like mulatto and they have all those things but it it wasn't like as restrictive you know but there's a pride that comes with being colored that I don't think should ever be taken away just because the world doesn't understand it doesn't mean that now they shouldn't experience it colored people have created much of their own culture their own vibe their own food their own and it's a beautiful thing that is adjacent to and oftentimes overlaps with black, but doesn't necessarily need to be contained only in the flatness of what black is considered in the rest of the world.

And so, I think what was tough for Tyler and what has been tough for Tyler and then her fans is that some people in the world go, Wait, you're not proud to be black but you are singing and performing a black music style and we're supporting you partially because of the blackness that you bring and then Tyler's going no it's not about not being black or being it's like and it's as weird as it is to say I've realized sometimes it's just understanding that in England your name will be Michael and in France your name will be Michel. Nothing's really changed.

It's just that in one place that's how they say it. In England your name will be John, in an Afrikaans community in South Africa your name will be Johan. Nothing has changed. And in Brazil you will be João. But you are still you. It's just in that place they have a different way to say the name that you have have identified by and and yeah, I think in the same way we talked about the Twitter thing where I said

I don't think it's over The thing that happened with Tyler is that it's like a tentacle a little spike of apartheid You know, it even like makes us question how we think of race as a whole and it shows us how fragile the whole concept Is and yeah, I don't think she deserved it and I don't think she should be forced to like deal with I don't think Tyler now has to turn into a historian every time she goes to an interview or you know delve into the socio-political Aspects of her very identity just for her to sing and enjoy herself political aspects of her very identity just for her to sing and enjoy herself. But I do think it's been interesting to see how people deal with it

because going back to our conversations it's amazing how quickly people go straight to you're bad, we hate you, you're wrong, you're this and I think people spend very little time saying huh what does this tell me about how different my world is to another and what could this tell me about how different my world is to another and what could this tell me about how I could see my world going forward? Will Purt, I know we haven't got much longer. I want to shout out your book, Born a Crime, number one New York Times bestseller. I'm going to summarize basically, this is dangerous, kind of what it talks about, which is that you're growing

up between two worlds, well, not between two worlds, but as you put it, kind of chameleon. As you said, your father was white, he was Swiss, and you were kind of intermittently involved, but mainly you were living with your mum and her family, but almost like, not an object of curiosity, but a figure of some uniqueness even in their world. Like your grandmother, you say at one point, didn't like to spank you because it felt wrong spanking a light skinned child. Yeah, and she spanked me once and never again. She felt weird. Like I don't feel, I feel weird spanking a white, a white boy, I guess.

And then, and then your, your prayers were favored because it was viewed that prayers spoken in good English found more favor with Jesus and God, both of them native English speakers, of course. And then you grow up kind of going between different worlds, speaking like four or five languages, and navigating these different and complicated political and cultural reality. Then, if that weren't enough to deal with, you've got this turbulent figure in your household, your stepfather, who becomes increasingly erratic. And I thought you handled your relationship with him really well, because he emerges as a figure of some

likeability, like he's got certain qualities that you seem to admire, or there's aspects of him that you seem to get along with. And then he, I guess, drink takes over along with his inborn, whatever it is, so anger, anger, chaos, trauma. And I mean, are you okay talking about how it kind of reached a kind of a hideous climax? Yeah, yeah. And one of the reasons I... Okay might be the wrong word, you know, because it reminds me of a time that's terrible and still haunts me in my life and my family, I think.

But I speak about it because I realized how many people are experiencing this behind closed doors. Domestic violence is a strange pervasive issue in society that is swept under the rug because the shame is somehow borne by the victims. You know, children are ashamed to admit this is happening in their worlds because it says something about them somehow. You know, the people who it's happening to, predominantly women obviously, they are ashamed because it says something about their choices in life or you know what they've subjected

themselves to. Yeah, so I'm not okay. Okay would be like the wrong way to put it. But I'm always open to speaking about it because I too am still navigating it and its effects. Is it okay if I say what happened? Yeah, no, you can. Well, so after she's finally got shot of him and moved on, he evidently slips into, well, one can only speculate, a pit of grievance, angry, drunken rage and shoots are in the head. Yeah. And I think that was since then, I have read far too many stories where the same has happened. But unfortunately, the outcome hasn't been the same because I was lucky my mother survived Miraculously my mother survived being shot in the head a bullet passing literally through her whole skull from the back of her head out through the front of her face and

Yeah, I When I first told the story I told it Primarily because it was told in the newspapers. I've always tried to be a private person with my life and also very carefully with my family's life. You know, they didn't subscribe to anything fame related. So I'm very careful not to tell their story for them. But the newspapers, you know, wrote like everything and the way they wrote things didn't give

it the nuance that I think it deserved and it didn't tell a complete story. And yeah, and so that's really why I wrote about it. Was not because I'm a tell-all kind of person, but rather because it was out there and I was like, well, I would rather give it the thoughts and the nuance that I feel it deserves and I'm glad I did because a Lot of the healing that I've gotten has come from commiserating with people all over the world who have experienced something similar Maybe even with a worse outcome and then sometimes with an outcome that isn't as bad Which has meant that people have been stuck in it for longer

I should say by the way because she appears briefly in the documentary we were talking about and she comes across as a force of nature and just oozes a kind of charisma and quality of vivacity and she just lights up the screen. Yeah, she really has that. She seems like an amazing person. Someone said you speak to her every day. Is that really true? Yeah, yeah. She sends me like Bible verses every single day and then other times it'll

be life updates. This is heavy, I'm going to just, is it okay if I say what you said? When you heard the news you called your stepfather and incredibly, he having just shot your mum in the head, answered the phone. You said you killed my mum. He said yes I did. You said you killed my mum. And he said yes, and if I could find you I would kill you as well. Yeah. That's a long pause. Maybe you should inform listeners what happened to him. What did the judicial system do?

Oh, they didn't really do anything. He spent a little time in holding, and then went on trial, and then the courts decided that he wasn't a threat, and because it was his first criminal offense, that he should be given leniency, and this was somehow sort of like a crime of passion etc and it would be better to have him outside than inside and yeah and that's pretty much how it turned out and it's it's it's an interesting and complicated one because my mom survived he wasn't punished as if he shot her.

And so there's like a complicated conversation that I'll always have with myself about justice versus people having second chances versus incarceration. It's a really complicated one because I go, what is justice? Is it the idea that somebody's punished in kind? That's not really possible. I mean, I've had every feeling, you know, the grief, the fear. I think as time has passed and as I've worked in therapy, it's definitely gotten easier for me but

it doesn't mean that it's got it's a chapter of my life that will will never ever be erased you know there are a few things that you can remember more than the day you thought your mother had died so I think what it's It's made me a lot more aware and conscious of how we treat young men and men in general who start to show us signs that their rage at the world is spilling out. Because I think we're seeing that more and more. And now people are having to play catch up to ask the question, what is it that's making men angry? And how can you help heal that pain that that anger is caused by?

And if you don't, what is the price you pay? You know, and I think unfortunately, time time and time again we see the price that is paid is paid by the weakest in society. It is the women and children. What strikes me about you is you've given everything you've been through levels of trauma that are described and sometimes just hinted at in the book and other things you've been through and yet you ooze a kind of poise, a tranquility and equanimity. And your stand up actually is, how do I put it, like friendly and positive and ingratiating in a good sense.

You don't seem angry. And yet I feel as though you've got every right to be angry or at the very least in some respects wounded. I think I've definitely been both, you know, for many different reasons. Wounded most certainly and I think wounded I was happy to accept very early on. Anger was one that took me a long time to appreciate and accept, you know, because we live in a world where we're told so many times that anger is not something we should feel and it's like why are you being angry and anger is you losing control of yourself and anger and it

took me a long time to learn that the emotion is not the issue. It's your reaction to the emotion that you really want to be cognizant of. And so in that time I've learned to accept things. I'll be like, yeah, I'm angry. I'll be angry at things that happened to me, that happened to my family, things that have happened in South Africa as a country as a whole. I'll be angry about stuff I'll read in the news, geopolitical events. I will get angry and I do admit that anger.

The one thing I don't ever wish to be part of, and maybe that's partially because of my upbringing, not just in my house, but in the country I was born in, I don't ever want my anger to be taken out on others. I've seen that close up, and I've seen it on a macro level in South Africa. Seeing that anger pour out. It's funny you say that. I remember once I had this conversation with Louis C.K. This was right before I was about to host The Daily Show. And I was at the Comedy Cellar in New York City in the West Village.

And I walked past Louis and I said, hey, what's up Louis? How are you doing? And he was like, hey, what's up man? And then he turned and he's like, wait, wait. He's like, hey, Trevor. And I was like, yes. And he said, hey, you're taking over from John, right? And I said, yes, I am.

And he said, are you, how are you feeling? It's like, are you nervous? Are you, like, how are you feeling? And I said, oh, man. I said, I'm shitting myself. I said, every day I'm shitting myself. I said, I barely sleep. I'm reading everything about American politics.

None of it seems to make sense. And I'll never forget his reaction. He looked at me and he said, oh, wow. He said, oh, I like you so much more now. I said, what? And he said, I've watched some of your interviews leading up to The Daily Show and I thought, this guy has no fear. He has no apprehension. He's completely unflappable, and he was like,

he's like, what a piece of shit. He's like, he's about to take over the hardest job arguably on television in America, and he doesn't seem like it has changed his day at all. What an idiot. What an arrogant idiot. You know, going back to the genesis of your question I yeah I've never felt the need to involve people in the thing that I'm going through and and that's been one of the one of the the issues that I've worked on in therapy on a personal level which has been great. Now I lean on

people more, I share with my friends more, I'll tell them I'm stressed, I'll tell them I'm tired, I'll tell them where before I felt like I was burdening them, now I understand it's either venting or giving someone an opportunity to show up. Dude, I know I've monopolized your time. Well, you were meant to, so... I know, actually that was the plan. That's called hosting a podcast. It's sort of been the job.

But thank you for sharing a bit of your thoughts and thank you for your feedback about having seen some of my programs. That was my main takeaway, was that you'd actually seen my incredible body of work. Yeah, yeah. And thank you for real. Like, you know, I don't know if you ever thought that your work would be encouraging a South African kid to think about how they approach the world differently, you know?

You were cheeky, you were funny, you were incredulous, you were... but I always felt like you were kind. Handsome. You know, definitely. I always felt like you were... like I'd never seen anybody speak to a member of the AWB the way you did. I just hope we can do more of that. Don't get cocky with me my friend, because I don't need you or your publicity. Am I not a man? What was this other one? Anyway, you don't think it's wrong? What?

Racial mixing? No I don't, I really don't. And I'll be presenting my one-man show, Encounters in South Africa. I'm still workshopping it with my friend Trevor. Don't get cocky with me, my friend. That needs a little work. I'll meet you at the robot. Yeah, now you're going a little... it's like you've slipped into the English version of that. But you have it sometimes. It has to stay deeper than that. Deeper than that, even in the way that some of the words are, if you're meeting you at the robot, there's a certain particular way.

I'll be in my bucket. That you want to hold it. I'll bring some biltong, lift over from the braai. And that's the extent of my vocab thank you so much I appreciate it thank you so much thank you down the road hi it's me again I'm back hope enjoyed that, and in case it wasn't clear, yes, I'm a big fan of his comedy, and in particular, check out his first special from when he was in South Africa, Daywalker. It's on YouTube, it might be illegal, but it is there. I think,

well, anyway, we don't encourage piracy. His accents are incredible and you get the full gamut of his South African accents, of which there are quite a few. And also read Born a Crime, his amazing memoir, which talks about his upbringing and, well, I summarised it in the chat, didn't I? Check it out. It's well worth a read along with his new book, which is for kids but has a lovely poetic quality. It's called Into the Uncut Grass out in the UK on the 8th of October today if you're listening to this on the day of release. A big thank you to Trevor for going into some emotionally raw terrain with me. That story of his stepfather shooting his mother is

unbelievable and horrific and that may be the longest pause is unbelievable and horrific. And that may be the longest pause I've ever been in an interview and I think Milly might even have trimmed it down a bit. If you have a spare moment, feel free to check out some of my South African documentaries. They're on BBC iPlayer if you're in the UK, or just find them on whatever your local service provider is. The first one was called Louis Theroux. They called it whites. It was just the episode that was about Boers and South African white separatists. It was a weird weekends episode. The second one was about Louis Threw's African hunting holiday where I went and declined as it turned out. Spoiler alert, I declined to shoot a warthog. I mean,

it's a bit of a no braineriner. You know, why don't I shoot a cuddly looking animal that's literally featured in the animated film The Lion King? Why don't I shoot it with a crossbow on national television? That'll make me popular, but I sort of had to go through the charade of, well maybe in moment, I'll suddenly get the urge to shoot the cuddly warthog. But I didn't. And the third one was called Louis Theroux, Law and Disorder in Johannesburg. And that was about, well, I described that was about crime and law enforcement by private citizens. Oh, I said to the woman that she'd assembled with a bunch of people, some of them were holding string, they'd cornered someone who's allegedly a miscreant. I said, what are you doing? She

said, we want to bend him. We want to bend him. Many of these stories appear in Gotta Get Thru This available from your local bookshop or for £10 on Amazon. We want to bend him. Speaking of South African accents, should we shout out Leonardo DiCaprio in Blood Diamond? That diamond is my ticket out of here. And what's the other thing he says? Some people say how could God let this happen? I say God lived this place a long time ago. And the BAFTA goes to... If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com slash resources.

Credits The producer was Millie Choo. The assistant producer was Amelia Gill. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. That diamond is my ticket out of here. This is a MINDHOUSE production for Spotify.