The Mel Robbins Podcast - How to Speak Up for Yourself: Simple Strategies for Being Heard

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

In this episode, you’re learning how to speak up for yourself and make sure that you are heard. Whether you want to be more influential and visible at work or there’s a hard conversation that you’ve been avoiding with a family member, this episode will empower you to have a breakthrough. Most of us have never been taught the skills we need to have challenging conversations or to better advocate for our needs. The good news is that these are skills, and you are going to learn them in a very entertaining and relatable format today. You’re invited to listen in on multiple coaching sessions with listeners just like you and me who are struggling to find the words or the courage to say what needs to be said. So today I’m unpacking my formula, step by step, for handling challenging conversations. This is an excellent episode to send to people in your life who you really wish saw their own value and worth and could communicate it better. I can’t wait to hear how these very clear steps have helped you have those conversations you’ve been putting off and to show up differently at work and school. Xo Mel  Want me to answer your question on the podcast? Submit it here. In this episode, you’ll learn: 3:00: Listen to Claudia’s question about how to set boundaries in friendships.5:30: Here are 3 reasons why we avoid difficult conversations in the first place.14:40: Do you have a friend who criticizes you? Listen to this.17:30: Make sure you are ready with THIS before you start your conversation.19:45: This is a prime example of a time when I was being a crappy friend.23:30: Here’s what you should assume before you have a conversation.25:30: Never do this or you’ll put the other person on the defensive.26:45: If you can, PLEASE have your conversation this way.30:40: Here’s my favorite visual when it’s my turn to listen.33:40: Do you have to communicate with an ex? Listen to Erica.35:50: You’ve got to learn how to “gray rock” when dealing with difficult people.36:40: See the petty people in this ridiculous way and it will help!39:30: Like it or not, you have to have this conversation for your kids’ sake.40:30: Here is what anger and pettiness actually is.41:15: One of two things will happen when you handle conversations like this.43:30: How do you handle combative people in your life? Listen to Candace.46:00: Here’s what a person with anxious attachment needs to hear from you.49:00: Need to have a conversation with someone who’s triggered easily? Is it time to let go of your relationship? If so, then listen to “How to Let Go.” Learn about “The 4 Attachment Styles for Healthy Relationships.” Disclaimer

Hey, it's your friend Mel. And today, we are having a difficult conversation on the Mel Robbins podcast. So let's just jump right into it. Okay, you ready? Because we need to talk. And I bet just hearing those words, we need to talk. Doesn't it make your armpits start to sweat? I know whenever anybody texts me or sends me an email

and they write the words, hey, Mel, I have something that I need to talk to you about. I suddenly feel like it's fourth grade Mel, and I'm about to get grounded. And so first things first, yes, we are talking about difficult conversations today. But take a deep breath. Relax. You and I are not having a difficult conversation. Today, you have a front row seat as I'm coaching four listeners of the Mel Robbins podcast

who are just like you who need to have a difficult conversation with someone in their life. Now, they've been avoiding it. They've been thinking about it. And now they've reached out and they're seeking advice for the best way to handle those conversations that we all need to have at some point in our lives. And that's what we're going to unpack today. And if you're brand new to the Mel Robbins podcast, welcome.

I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on change, motivation, and habits. And today, you're getting the rules, the tactics, the strategies that are going to empower you to have these hard conversations. You'll learn the three main reasons why you and I avoid these conversations, and that's important because when you know which of the three categories you're in,

it's gonna help you create a strategy. You're also gonna learn, when do you actually need to have a conversation? And when do you not need to have one? And you're also gonna leave this podcast with scripts. That's right, you're gonna know exactly what you need to say, to start these conversations, to have these conversations. And you're also going to know how to handle yourself if the conversation does go off the

rails. Now I'm super excited for these coaching sessions today because they're going to help you. They're going to help you tap into the courage inside of you. And I want that. I want you to live your life with the strength and freedom to express yourself. And a lot of times, you know what that means? That means you have to have difficult conversations. This is the perfect episode, by the way, to share with somebody that you know who may be struggling with the same issue.

All right, you're ready? Awesome. who may be struggling with the same issue. All right, you're ready? Awesome. We're going to start off with a listener who has a question about a friend issue and having a difficult conversation with a friend. You all relate to this one because I sure do.

Hi, Mel, it's Claudia. I have a question about dealing with conflict, especially when you have a lot of childhood trauma that makes you extremely conflict-devoident. Currently, I'm gearing up to reopen a conversation with a friend who lashed out at me last week. This is a person who I honestly wish that I could just let go, like you talked about in one of your earlier episodes. Unfortunately, she is intertwined with a large friend group, which makes it difficult to just step away and move on. What I hope to do in this conversation is set boundaries about moving forward

with our relationship. Basically, I'm going to be downgrading the level of closeness by saying that I would like to limit our interactions to being in person, because being in a group chat with her is what has driven all our conflict. I also want to try to validate her feelings. While I'm really clear on this, and I have worked through this in several extra therapy

sessions, dealing with the anxiety, leading up to it, and the courage to simply begin it can get overwhelming, and I sometimes wish I could just escape and hide. Anyway, I would love some tips on how to start this tough conversation, and maybe some tips on things I need to keep in mind when I talk to her. Thanks so much for your work and content. Have a great day. Claudia, first of all, I love you. And you're right. Sometimes just letting go or moving on,

it's not really the best option. So I commend you for wanting to just have the conversation and try to deal with it like an adult. And I'm also glad that you told me what you hope to achieve. And I wish we could all have friends like Claudia who have something that they need to say, who are willing to talk to you about it, who are worried enough about a going right that she's spending time and therapy working through it, and that she's reaching out. I mean, that is the sign of a great friend.

And as you listen to the advice and to all the questions that come in today, I want you to listen with intention because there are going to be times where you're clodia. And you've got something that you really want to say to a friend and you don't know how to do it and you think about it and it just makes you nervous to think about bringing it up. And then guess what? There are times that we are all on the receiving end of a difficult conversation, because we've acted in a way where we didn't realize that the way that we've been behaving

really is bothering somebody else. And so there's so much here to cover, and here's where I wanna start. First of all, thank you, Claudia. I love your thoughtful question, the details really help, and I want to start by unpacking the three main reasons why you and I avoid hard conversations to begin with. So one of the main reasons why is you don't know what to say. Like you're not even sure how to start the conversation. And I know that somebody in my family is going through this right

now. They called me because bonuses came in and they were really frustrated with the bonus that they got and they want to talk to their boss about it. And, you know, he doesn't know how to start that conversation because the boss has already told him that, hey, profits were down. This is all I can do. I would like to give you more, but I can't. And he feels demoralized. Like, it makes him not even want to stay at the job. So that's a hard conversation to have with your boss. And so he called me because he doesn't know what to say.

And so if you're sitting there going, I'm in the same situation as Claudia, or I'm in the same situation as your family member, Mel, who called you, disappointed with my bonus, and you don't know how to start it, this is really normal. And we're gonna give you some tools today. So the second reason why we avoid hard conversations is because you think, well, it's not my responsibility.

And a group chat is the perfect example of that. In fact, I'm going away on a women's weekend and there are eight of us going away and I'm super excited, but we all met as part of a larger group. And I'm sure you've had this experience where I didn't plan it. But now I'm staring to feel like, uh-oh,

are other people gonna feel left out? Should I say something? Should I not say something? Is this my responsibility? What do I do? I don't know. And that's an example of when you freeze a little bit because you are like, well, should somebody else say this because I'm just invited, you know, should I raise something?

I don't know. And the point is that if you feel uncomfortable, you should raise it. Period. Doesn't matter if it's a group chat. doesn't matter if it's somebody else's event. If you feel uncomfortable or you feel this discomfort about something, just raise it. Think about not the content, just think about the context. Like what's the tone? Who do you say it to?

There are ways to deliver the message in a way that is a little bit softer and a little bit more diplomatic, but you should still say what you need to say because this is about self-expression. But the third reason why we avoid difficult conversations is the big one. It's one that we are all guilty of. And it is the need to be liked, the need to keep the peace, the need to not upset anybody. And there's lots of words that we can throw into this giant casserole of avoiding difficult conversations. For example, Claudia already alluded to one of the words, and that's childhood trauma. If you have any kind of childhood trauma, if you grew up in a household where parents

were unpredictable or abusive or there was a lot of conflict and yelling or you got the silent treatment, you basically were in a situation where any kind of confrontation, any kind of upset, made you scared as a kid. And what happens when you grow up with that kind of trauma or stress or conditioning in your household is that you're basically trained to be very conflict avoidant. You are trained to keep the peace. You are trained not to upset somebody.

And this is really common. And so if you find that you freeze when the thought of having a difficult conversation enters your mind, you're not alone. I have a very, very close friend whose mom was severely emotionally abusive, not physically abusive, emotionally abusive. She would deploy the silent treatment for weeks. Like literally, act as though her daughter didn't exist. My dear friend is now an adult who avoids conflict at all cost because as a kid, she was trained by her mother that if you do something that makes me upset, you don't exist. And so that kind of freezing is very, very real.

And in fact, if you noticed in Claudia's question, she alluded to the fact that she knows that this is tied to childhood trauma. She knows that the thought of upsetting somebody or causing some sort of conflict that it makes her freeze. And so Claudia, that's another incredible thing that I want to point out and acknowledge you for is the self-awareness that there is a difference between that kind of childhood

trauma that is now impacting you as an adult and your ability as an adult to recognize that that's a play and to take proactive strategic steps to act in alignment with the woman you want to be now, which is a courageous woman that can have these conversations and that can draw these boundaries. Now, before I start to unpack more of this story with Claudia. I also want to highlight something that I don't think we think about a lot. And that is that we assume that if we avoid the conversation, it somehow disappears. We make the mistake of believing that if we don't have the difficult conversation, if we don't have the conflict, if we don't ruffle somebody's feathers, that somehow things are going to be more comfortable, right? I mean, that's

why you're avoiding it. You think keeping the pieces better. Have you noticed that avoiding a difficult conversation just creates this difficult feeling inside of you that as you are actively avoiding it, you are thinking about the conversation. As you are struggling with how to start it and you walk into a room and you see the person you need to have this conversation with, you can feel the discomfort inside of you. And so we sit here and tell ourselves a lie that avoiding it will make it better. When the truth is, it's the avoidance of these harder difficult conversations that create

discomfort inside of all of us. And a lot of times what I've found when I've had these conversations is the other person didn't even know I was upset. And it wasn't until I found the courage to have the conversation that I relieved myself of the discomfort. And I empowered the situation to get better. And I love Claudia's question because I think this is so common in friendships that we do have issues with friends. And that's okay.

You can have issues with friends. And part of friendship is having the respect for somebody else to be able to say when something isn't working because people can feel when shit is off, okay? And I've got a really close friend that had a very similar issue to Claudius, where she's part of a large friend group. Their kids are all friends, and there's no exing this person out of the friend group, because the kids are all friends. And there's lots of times in your life where you're going to have family members or kids that are friends with other people, and you don't really jive with the person that they're like it just is part of life.

And I remember this friend of mine saying there is this one person in the friend group who is a drama queen constantly making it about herself, constantly causing issues within the friend group. And finally, my friend said to this person in person, look, we're just not ever gonna be best friends, but for the sake of this friend group and for the sake of our kids,

let's just rise above this and let's just leave it at that. Let's stop trying to be good friends because we're just not going to, but we can be cordial. And maybe that's what Claudia is gonna have to do. In fact, I wanted to understand more about the specific thing that was going on with Claudia and this friend. So I reached out to her and she has got more details. You're going to hear those details plus my six simple steps to a hard conversation.

All of that is coming up when we return. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. Today you and I are talking about difficult conversations, why we need to have them and more importantly, how you can have them. So we were just talking about Claudia who was having an issue with a friend in a big friend group and this woman was like blowing up in group chats and Claudia is really triggered. She stressed out about having a hard conversation with her. And so I asked Claudia, can you give me a little bit more detail about what actually happened with this friend so that I

can use the details to walk you through the six steps of how you have a hard conversation. And this is what Claudia had to say. This conflict comes after many smaller ones where even minor disagreement with my friend, such as not liking the same things as them, resulted in disproportionate anger and statements there was something wrong with me. In the current conflict, my friend flew into a rage and really laid into me when I could not return her call as quickly as she would like.

I feel like I'm walking on eggshells with this friend for over a year, so I'm ready to set some boundaries and protect my peace. Wow, Claudia. I commend you because I think a lot of us would just be like, I'm just going to go as this person. I'm just slowly going to exit stage left. And I commend you, Claudia, because I don't think this conversation will necessarily change the other person. But finding the courage to have this difficult conversation

will change you. Because every time you tap into your courage and you take actions that empower a higher version of yourself and empower yourself expression and help you protect your peace and advance your values, you become a better you. And so the first thing I would do is I would stop calling this person a friend. Because friends don't rage on each other like that, not all the time.

And now what I want to do is I want to give you a tool. So this is the first tool that I want you to take away when it comes to those moments when you feel you need to start a hard conversation. The tool is know your why. You have to know why you want to have this conversation. The tool is know your why. You have to know why you want to have this conversation. What are you hoping to get out of this? This is really important because your why is going to anchor you as you think about the structure of how you're going to have this conversation. Your why, Claudia, is you want to protect your peace. That's a great why. And the why you want to protect your piece is everything.

And I'm going to keep coming back to it as we talk about the structure of a hard conversation. And for you listening, I want you to think about your why. OK? The why could be that I need to find the courage to speak up at work. The why might be I'd actually like to improve this friendship. The why might be I need to start sticking up for myself.

Or the why could be Claudius, I need more peace in my life and I'm not going to get it by trying to not let it bother me because it does bother me and protecting my piece means speaking up for my piece. So take away number one everybody. You need to know your why and then you have to pick a specific example that you're going to point to as something concrete, very factual, that you can anchor the conversation around. You want to narrow it to something that has a time, a place, something very specific that has specific facts to it. When you called me on Tuesday and left a message, and I didn't respond. You then texted back in all caps doing

blobby, blobby, blobby, you're just going to describe what happened very factually. Okay, I don't want a lot of adjectives because anything that becomes a little bit bigger, the person's going to be on the defense. Okay? So you're going to explain something recent, something factual so that you anchor the conversation on one specific incident. That's really important because we're going to ultimately flip this around to how it made you feel.

Because it's not really about what the other person did, because they are going to argue about that, but they can't argue about the impact intentional or unintentional that it had on you. Now we're going to talk about guidelines. And again, we will link to all the resources and any studies or any articles that we refer to in this episode. And then I'm going to give you my formula for difficult conversations. So number one, Harvard Business Review. Don't ever assume that your point is obvious because most of the time it's not that obvious. You know, I think people are very self-aware when it comes to how you feel about

yourself, but we have a huge blind spot when it comes to how we occur for other people. And I have a personal example of this being a really crappy friend to somebody. So I had been friends with this person for a very long time. We had raised our kids together. And it was during the period of time where Chris's restaurants were in major financial crisis. We were profoundly scrambling financially. And it was just a really bad time. And this friend of mine, who had known me for a long time, had no idea any of this was going on. And I had no idea that she was starting to feel like I was using her for babysitting. The truth is, I'd never thought about it that way, because I was in such survival mode

and in such a panic that I was doing whatever I could to work, to bring in any money that I could and I needed help, but I wasn't really great about asking for it or sharing what was going on. And it wasn't obvious to me how this was coming across to my friends. Well, finally, this friend had had enough with me. And she didn't confront me right away. What she did instead is she was having a birthday party and she didn't invite me.

Every one of our friends was invited to this massive party and I only't invite me. Every one of our friends was invited to this massive party and I only found out the next day because a couple of friends were like, hey, why weren't you at so and so's party? And I was like, what party? I knew immediately that it was intentional that we weren't invited

and that I had done something profoundly wrong. And I had felt for months like the energy and the vibe was really off. And this goes to this point that I'm trying to make that these uncomfortable conversations just create discomfort when you don't have them. You know when something's off, you know when somebody's kind of mad at you, but you don't know quite why. It's not obvious to you. Because again, I'm going to say this over and over, we're in our own heads. We're dealing with our own issues. And while we might be aware of what we're dealing with internally, we usually have a massive, massive blind spot

to how we're showing up for other people or not showing up or how our behavior looks from the outside. And at this period of time, nobody knew that I was struggling with drinking. Nobody knew that Chris and I were $800,000 in debt. Nobody knew that we had leans on the house or that Chris wasn't getting paid. We were hiding all of it. We were just scrambling.

And I'll never forget how scared I was when I picked up the phone that morning because I had no idea what I had done. And I called and I got a voicemail and I just said I know I've done something wrong and I would love to know what it is. And it was one of the hardest phone calls I've ever had to make and that led to one of the most gut- gut wrenching and difficult conversations I've ever been a part of. And if I put myself in her shoes, what she shared with me was right. That I was absent.

I was always working. I made my friends feel like I was their babysitting service while I was working. Nobody knew what the hell was going on that I had clearly changed, that it seemed like my values had changed. It was very, very painful to hear. And it wasn't obvious to me. And I really appreciate my friend for saying what needed to be said, because I'm sure it wasn't easy for her to say it either, but she was the only one who did. And I wish she would have said it before it had gotten

to that point. And I think that's why these conversations are also important because you don't know what's going on with somebody else. You don't know if they're really struggling. You don't know what's going on behind the closed doors. And you should assume they don't have a clue how they're coming off. Because 99% of the time when I've had these hard conversations or I've been the one that somebody's had a hard conversation with, I didn't know. They didn't know. And it's only through the courage of having that conversation that you know. And then you can do better. And, you know, I will also tell you that our friendship was very

off for years. And it's been in recent years that we have found our way back to one another. But I'll tell you what, I trust her more than most people because I know she will tell me now and she knows I will tell her now and I love her for that So it's not always obvious and you should assume that and That's why it's important to go into these conversations with a little bit of compassion Very specific examples because you know again going back to the situation with my frame I Could explain and I did at nauseam all of the things that were going on that made me appear the way that I appeared.

And I could apologize like crazy. It doesn't change the fact that unintentionally I made somebody feel that way. And that sucks. But I'm grateful for the fact that I got a chance to air that out and to apologize and to do better, honestly. So that's number one. Don't assume your point is obvious. And this matters because it brings compassion

to the way that you think about this. It makes you step in the other person's shoes for just a second, even if they're a really annoying, outrageous asshole. Second thing from Harvard Business Review, this is huge. Do not exaggerate. Don't go into the, you always do this, you always do that, you always do the other thing because even thinking back to that conversation, it did become a pile on. There was one that conversation, it did become a pile on. There was one instance that my friend referred to and I immediately felt crushed

because I knew exactly what she was talking about and I could see why it made her feel that way. Then it just became like in this and that. And you just need one thing, really. But when you also get to the point where you're like, you always do this or you always do that or you always do the other thing, it does make the person shut down

that's on the receiving end and it also makes them extremely defensive because it does feel like an exaggeration. Somebody's not always one way. And if you have just one example, it usually stings enough. And it's enough to have one example to unpack the dynamic and your feelings and trust me.

Even if the person doesn't respond the way you want them to, you've dropped a grenade in their head. It's gonna go off later. These kinds of conversations stay with people. As you can tell in the way that I explain that conversation, it stays with me decades later. So keep it to one example, because that's all you need.

Okay, now I want to give you the six simple steps that I use whenever I need to have a difficult conversation. And, you know, as a baseline, I also want to say something else. You should try to have these conversations in person, and if you can't have them in person, have them on Zoom. The reason why I like having them in person or having them on Zoom is because when you can see is because when you can see the person's facial expressions, it just brings a whole level of humanity and understanding and connection to these conversations. And there's way too much that can get misinterpreted if you're on the phone and never have this stuff over text or over e-bill.

Do not do that because I think that's a lot of why we need difficult conversations because there is so much that gets misinterpreted with the written word, okay? So in person on Zoom. So let me give you all six and then I'm going to unpack them using Claudius example. So step number one, you start the conversation by stating your why. Number one, you start the conversation by stating your why. Step number two, you're going to have a specific singular example of what happened. And then step number three, you are going to state how it made you feel. I felt X when this specific thing happened. Step number four, you're going to listen with your mouse shut.

Step number five, you're going to validate whatever you hear. Because whatever you hear is their lived experience. And when you validate whatever you hear is their lived experience. And when you validate whatever you hear, it takes this from an argument back into a conversation. And then six. And final, how you end it, how you get out of this is you state your why again. And if you have any request related to a boundary or a change in behavior, you state it then. And that's it. So let me unpack this with Claudius example, okay. So Claudius Y is very simple. I want to protect my piece. That's her Y. Then she's going to have in mind a specific example that happened, and I would recommend that she anchor in on the most recent thing. And based on what she said,

the most recent thing is that this friend got really upset with Claudia because Claudia did not return a phone call in the amount of time that this friend expected Claudia to return the phone call. After saying, I really want to protect my piece, I want to figure out how we can remove the friction between us. And I want to talk specifically about when you got upset with me last week because I didn't return your phone call in the amount of time that you thought I should return it.

Now what Claudia is gonna say is I felt attacked. Or I felt triggered. You know, I have a lot of past trauma. When you came at me for something that I felt like I didn't do anything wrong, I literally felt like that little kid again that was getting in trouble for something I didn't do wrong. Like I don't owe you a phone call back. And that's how I felt when you lashed out at me. Then you're gonna listen.

Is there anything that you wanna say about what happened? And she might be just vomiting, stress at you. Just listen, you know, a tactic that I use, I call it the snow globe. I imagine the person just inside a snow globe that's shaking up and all that crap coming out of their mouth. I just kinda let it stay in the snow globe with them. And if you can find one thing to validate,

like maybe what you're gonna learn is, I'm really, you know, I'm hopefully they apologize. Maybe they don't, but maybe what you're gonna hear is, you know, I've just really stressed out and I really needed you and you know, I had a lot going on and I told you that I needed you to call me back, blah, blah, blah, blah, all you're gonna say is, out and I really needed you and you know I had a lot going on and I told you that I need you to call me back. Baba, baba, baba, all you're going to say is I hear you.

You needed me. You told me that you needed me to call you back. I can understand how that would make you upset. That's it. That's it. And then six, you say you're why again. I just need to protect my piece and I wanna remove the drama.

And so moving forward, please know, I do not return phone calls on demand. And if you need an immediate response, I recommend that you text me and you tell me that you need an immediate response. And I will at least get back to you to let you know if I can respond or not. And that's it.

That's it. That is the anatomy of how you have a difficult conversation. And your why is the most important part. Because, imagine if Claudia went in saying, I really wanna repair this friendship. The conversation goes Claudia went in saying, I really want to repair this friendship. The conversation goes a little bit differently, right? Because when you say, I want to protect your piece and dissipate the drama between us. And so let's talk about what happened last week. Because when you did that, I felt this. And it makes me not want to text you. And I don't want that.

I want to just dissipate the drama. You know, what do you need to say? And I'll listen, validate. But imagine if Claudia went in and said, I really want to repair this friendship. That has a very different tone to it, right? Your why is everything, which is why you got to know it going in. And it's why the specific example matters too. Now you have very specific takeaways already in this episode for having a difficult conversation. When we come back, you're going to meet a

woman who is having a lot of problems with her husband's ex. And she wants to know, should I even have a conversation with this person? Is this gonna be a waste of time? We're gonna tackle that when we come back. tackling difficult conversations, how to have them, when to have them, why you need to have them, and up next. You're about to hear from Erica. She wrote in because her husband's ex-girlfriend is very present in their relationship, and Erica has had enough. Listen. Hello, male. It is Erica. My husband has an ex-girlfriend with two young daughters. They have been separated for more than 12 years, but she's very controlling.

Thank God we live in a different state, miles and miles away from her. Every time we go visit his daughters and my husband family, she wants to be present in every single activity. I always try to be my best to tolerate her, but her petinity is ridiculous. What can I do or how I can make this situation better for myself? Thank you. Erica, I love your question and I love you for writing in with us. And thank you, thank you, thank you. And look, first of all, this woman's beef is with your husband and with life in general.

It's not with you, and you can't fix that. And so number one, I want you to be honest with yourself. Are you upset because of her? Are you upset because your husband will not deal with this head on? Maybe you're not the one who needs to have the conversation. Maybe your husband needs to have the difficult conversation and needs to start setting boundaries. And the bottom line is that if she's upset with your husband or upset with the separation or upset with life in general, you can't fix that.

You just can't. And so I personally feel like what's going to benefit you the most is a strategy. I'll talk about the conversation in a minute that you could have. But first, I want to talk about the strategy. You got to rise above this. You said I'm trying to mel, but there's something about this that is hooking you. And I personally think it's not the ex-girlfriend. I think it's your husband and how he's dealing with this and how he's letting the bullshit

slide. But that's just my assumption. I could be wrong. But for you, rising above it means not letting the ex get her hooks in you. And there's a great strategy that Dr. Romani, who is the world's leading expert on narcissism, she's been on the podcast twice and she calls this strategy gray rocking, which basically means whenever you are around the X,

be like a gray rock, you're so boring. You don't even notice, you're not triggered by anything. You keep your answer short. You're not triggered by anything. You keep your answer short. You're not that interested in this woman's life. You're not trying to be her friend. You just let her pettiness be like water dripping off a gray rock. And when you're a gray rock, you're also not her target.

So imagine a gray rock every time you're about to see the X. A second way that you can rise above this is every time you see your husband's X, I want you to see a seven-year-old girl having a ridiculous tantrum. That's what her petting-ness is. She's trying to get your attention, just like a seven-year-old would try to get your attention. I want you to put in your mind a little seven-year-old version of your husband's ex,

put her in a ridiculous little dress-up dress, then sticker inside that snow globe. And every time she does something petty or something annoying or something ridiculous, you're just going to imagine that seven-year-old version of her in a ridiculous little party dress throwing a tantrum because she's not the tenured retention and she does any, and she gets petty because then everybody gets to day, day, day, day, day. That's her way to get power.

She just loves it when she irritates you. Why? Because now she's the center of attention. But you're not going to buy into that anymore. Are you? Because you're either gonna be a gray rock. You're gonna be so damn boring that everything just rolls right off you.

You're not even really paying attention. You don't add any fuel to the fire or you're gonna kinda giggle at her. Because she's throwing a tantrum, seven-year-old and her party trash, you get really petty because it's the only thing she has in life. That's what you're going to do. That helps you emotionally unhook yourself.

It helps you stay separate, and that is going to help you not have to have a difficult conversation because I personally think if you're going to have a conversation, you need to have it with your husband. And you need to tell him that he's got a step up because every time he doesn't and she acts petty, it makes you feel a certain way. And that it makes you feel like you don't respect

them or whatever it may be. It's just frustrating to you. The other way that you could step into this, if you think about your why, and maybe your why, if you're going to have this conversation with your husband is, you can't stand watching her walk all over him, or maybe your why is you can't stand watching her walk all over him or maybe your wife is something more powerful. And here's the more powerful why. His daughters are watching. And kids don't learn by hearing what we say.

Kids learn by watching what we say. Kids learn by watching what we do. And if the Y is big enough, that the adults need to rise above this bullshit for the sake of the daughters, that we got to lose this petty crap for the sake of the daughters. Because you know what? Whether you like it or not, the way the X

is dealing with your husband and the way that your husband refuses to deal with his X, that is modeling or relationship for the daughters. And so for the sake of the daughters, And so for the sake of the daughters, you could have the hard conversation with your husband and with the ex. But you got to figure out what the Y is for you. You know, and again, I'm going to say what I said to Claudia, maybe this is happening because you're the one that's the bigger one. Maybe you're in all of their lives because you're the one that's going to break the chain of behavior. Maybe you're the one that is here because you're meant to tap into the courage inside

you to hold all of you to a higher standard. And look, maybe the X isn't capable of it. Maybe there's so much trauma and resentment, and she hasn't done the work, and it's easier to be angry and petty and all that stuff. Because, you know, when somebody's angry and petty, it's just pain. That's it.

They don't know how to tolerate pain so they attack people and they're petty and they seek attention. But when you get clear on your why, I wanted to talk to you because I would really love for the sake of the girls for us to rise above this. And when X happened, I felt X. And I think we can do better. When you do that, you've got a chance to transform the family dynamic.

And remember, you're only going to use one example and then you're going to give time for your husband or the extra respond. Two things are going to happen, especially when you're dealing with somebody who's petty or volatile. Either the person is going to listen and holy shit they apologize. There's something in you rising above the noise that is almost like a hand that helps them step up and rise above the noise. It might surprise you. You could be the force that changes everything, because maybe the ex and your husband have been locked in this stupid ass dynamic for so long they don't know anything else. But you're the one that could demand something new. Or if when they listen, they don't apologize, they immediately react like that seven-year-old in the party

dress like throwing yet another. How dare you say that? You're not even... All you say is calmly. I'm not blaming you. I'm explaining how something made me feel. I'm expressing a concern. And if you don't have the capacity to hear that, that's okay. Thank you for at least letting me say it because I am committed to being a better example

for the girls. You restate your why? Boom, and you're out. And don't forget the most important piece. You're having this conversation for you. It's not about your husband, it's not about his ex, it's about you being self-expressed. It's about you taking a stand for what you want and not caring what anybody else thinks. But I know that you might be thinking as you listen to me, yeah, that's great, Mel.

That's great for her. But what if their reaction does scare me? What if I do have this hard conversation? I ask for what I need, and then they are robbed. Well, you're not the only one that's service about that because that's exactly what Candace is worried about. Hi, Mel, it's Candace.

I listened to the episode about people pleasing and absolutely loved it. I've tried the strategy of taking a pause before answering more than once. My question is, how do you handle family members who won't accept a pause or a delayed response? What happens when instead of allowing you a pause, the person gets combative or aggressive? How do you stop the guilt from forcing you to answer? Candice, thank you for this question.

You know, one thing you might want to do Candace is also go and listen to the episode we did about attachment styles, because you might be dealing with somebody who has an anxious attachment style, and we had an incredibly amazing expert and doctor on that episode. She teaches about attachment styles and that framework might help you and said family member. So that's the first thing that

comes to mind. The second thing that comes to mind is I want to make sure that when you say the person gets aggressive that they're not crossing over into abusive. There's a big difference between somebody getting triggered when you go, I need time and then feeling anxious that they're going to lose you or they need to stay connected to you or they got to control you in this moment of uncertainty and somebody being abusive. Abusive, you need to get some help. If you're dealing with somebody who's clingy and annoying, that's anxious attachment style, I know it because I have it, and my husband often needs a pause when we're kind of in a difficult conversation.

So here's the thing. You said the word guilt, and that's why I think you're dealing with an attachment style thing where you need time to process, and this family member once an answer now, and then you feel bad that they're like howling you about this, you have to double down on your needs. And here's what I would recommend. I'm going to give you a script that you can take and make your own. When you request a pause, you're in a conversation, you say, I need to think about it. Here's what you're going to do.

Okay? So I want to change this frustrating dynamic between us. And because you come at me, I need a pause because I feel scared. And here's the tactic you're going to use. Okay? Here's the thing that a person with anxious attachment style needs to hear from you. I need a pause, and here's my promise. My promise is I will give you an answer in an hour. My promise is I will give you an answer in the morning. And if you want to change this dynamic between us, like I want to change it. I want to have a better, healthier connection. I don't want to fight like this.

I want to be able to have these conversations. I need you to not act like that. I need you to not use that tone of voice. I need you to respect and trust me when I say I need a pause because I am going to tell you how much time I need in order to give you an answer. And what I'm doing is helping you use a bridge. So you know like when you're dropping a little kid off at daycare. What all the experts say that you should do if a kid has separation anxiety, as you should say, you're gonna have a great day and I'll see you at five o'clock.

You're now creating a bridge to when you're coming back. If you're dealing with somebody that gets intense or pushy or uses a terrible tone of voice or guilt to you to make up your mind, do you dip dip dip, pressure's you. You need to create a bridge. I need to pause. I need to take a moment and collect myself.

I'll be back in an hour to talk about this. I will let you know in the morning. Because now you have let this person know that you are coming back. And so if this is a trigger for them, you are also helping to repair this idea that people that care about you come back. But they got to hold up their end of the bargain.

They got to realize that their tone of voice, the way they're behaving, this conversation is not acceptable. And that's why you need to pause. And the thing that I want you to understand is you've probably been locked in this dynamic for a while. And you're now doing something different. So you probably have been locked in a dynamic where they want an answer, you don't have an answer, they start to raise their voice, you then blah, blah, blah, and answer it.

This was me and my husband. I grew up with a parent that erupted when they got frustrated. And so I erupt when I got frustrated. I'm working on it. And the second that you shift the dynamic, people tend to get more emotionally triggered. And so when you say, look, this is exactly why I'm doing this because I don't want you yelling at me anymore.

And I need time to think and you need time to come down. I promise you, we will talk about this in the morning. And I love you for respecting the fact that you need time to calm down. I promise you, we will talk about this in the morning and I love you for respecting the fact that you need time to calm down and I need time to think. And we will resolve this when we're both a little more clear-headed. That's it. You can do this.

Our final question comes from a woman named Carla. And this question is so good because it helps me explain the real reason why we need to have difficult conversations. Hi, Mal, it's Carla. Can you give me advice on how to approach your partner, friends, family members, who have trauma insecurities or mental health issues without trying to change them or fix them. I absolutely love your podcast and it's helped me tremendously. Thanks, Mal. Carla, I absolutely love you and your question,

and I think it's going to help us all tremendously. Because at the end of the day, it's not about fixing other people. It's about improving dynamics between people that leave you feeling disempowered, worried, or afraid. That's what it's about. It's really not about the other person. So whether you're having a conversation with a friend that goes off the rails at you

because you don't call them back, or you're having a conversation with your boss because you're upset about something. It's not really about the friend, it's not really about the boss or getting more money, it's about you accessing your own self-expression. It's about you finding the courage to make requests so that you feel supported, respected, and empowered. And it's about you expressing concern or holding boundaries for what you will accept and what you won't accept in your life. And that's why these conversations matter. Because without finding the courage to fully express your highest, most self-express self, you will know that you're not reaching your potential.

You will feel that disruption and that discomfort of knowing that there's something that you need to say that you haven't said. And I don't want that for you. And when it comes to family members that you need to have a difficult conversation with, particularly if you're dealing with a family member that is not taking care of themselves,

you have to do that not from a place you're right of trying to fix somebody because we can't fix other people. We can only express how their behavior or lack of behavior makes us feel. This reminds me of something that happened to me long time ago, but it's still very relevant. I was in my 20s, Chris and I were just engaged and I became really good friends with this woman at work.

And as we became friends, it was very clear that she was struggling with some disorder eating and that became very very serious when her boyfriend broke up with her and for months She was complaining about the boyfriend She was complaining about the way that she looked she was complaining about her body and I would listen and I would listen And then I would offer support and then I would offer support. And then I would ask her, she thought she should speak to her therapist.

I would ask her, she was worried about her mental health or her lack of eating. And she would deflect it. And that would make me feel uncomfortable. And I didn't know how to bring it up. And I was only in my 20s. And I'd never really dealt with anything like this. And I didn't know how to support her. And then finally, one day I said, I love you.

I'm profoundly worried about you. And I feel helpless. Every time you complain about this relationship that's been over for months and I see you not taking care of yourself. And here's my request. You're no longer allowed to talk about this with me because you're not doing anything to change it. I will be here to hang out with you. I'll talk about work with you. I'll talk about the books we're reading with you, but I am no longer available for you to vent about this because you're not doing anything.

The second you get into therapy, the second you seek treatment, the second you move on, I'm here to support you, but I feel like by listening to you, I am part of the problem. She cut me out of her life. She got a different job, but I'll tell you something. Several years later, and I'm talking probably 10, 15 years later, she reached out and said that conversation was so confronting, and she didn't know how to handle it, but it was a tipping point that got her into treatment. People don't change until they're ready to

change, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a conversation about your boundaries. And you need to. If somebody is acting in a way where it's scaring you, you need to say something. If somebody's behavior is alarming you, you can draw boundaries. I'm not going to give you money unless you go into treatment. I am not going to listen to how depressed you are unless you get back on your medication. I am not going to let you rant about dad who you've been divorced from for 10 years, mom, you need to fricking move on with your life. I'm not here for that.

I'm here for you and your future and the healthy you and the happy you. You can be a stand for that without trying to fix someone. And oftentimes, all of us dancing around on eggshell shells is keeping somebody in that place. Sometimes they need you to be the stronger one, not to tell them what to do, but to say, I'm not going to sit here and watch this happen. But the second that you need somebody to drive you to rehab, the second that you need somebody to pay for your therapist, the second that you need somebody to hold your hand through this process, I will be there. That is how you talk to somebody, you talk about your feelings, you talk about your fears, you talk about what you're

willing to do and what you're no longer willing to do. And then the other person gets to make a choice. That's how you have that conversation. Because at the end of the day, that's what these conversations are about. You being your best and highest, most expressed version of yourself. And that's what I want for you. You know, look, you know what you need to do. The hardest part is starting the conversation. But the longer you put it off, the more uncomfortable it's going to be. It just builds and builds and builds. Just know, it's not going to go perfectly. That's okay. Finding the courage, getting the conversation done, it is so much better than perfect.

Your health is worth it. Your confidence is worth it. Your relationship is worth it. And you know what? It might just turn out way better than you ever expected. Your confidence is worth it, your relationship is worth it, and you know what? It might just turn out way better than you ever expected. And it will turn out better than you expected, because now you have the tools to empower you, to make it better than you're fearing right now. And one more thing, in case nobody else tells you today, I want to tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in that courage inside of you, that

you can tap into it. You can express yourself, you can do this, you can face the hard stuff. Now 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go do it. Oh, one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC