The Mel Robbins Podcast - Is It Too Late? How to Repair a Broken Relationship With Your Friend or Family Member

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

In this episode, you’re going to learn that it is never too late to try to repair a broken or difficult relationship.Research shows that estrangement is not only on the rise but that the majority of us have at least one extended family member or friend who is estranged.I know this is true in my own extended family, and I also have friends who are estranged from their parents.Whether you’re the person who’s cut off contact or you're the one wondering why someone you love did, our episode today will give you the language, tools, and context to start moving toward understanding and healing.Dr. Joshua Coleman is a psychologist and best-selling author who works with families to repair broken bonds and help them reconcile and improve difficult or estranged relationships.In fact, according to Dr. Coleman, the strategies he shares work, and the statistics are in your favor.I hope you share this with anyone you know dealing with a difficult relationship. It is very common, especially after a divorce and when there is a new spouse or significant other.When someone you love suddenly pulls away or cuts you out of their life, you need a playbook to help you know when to reach out and when not to reach out, and what exactly to say and not say.Today you’ll learn:Why estrangement is on the rise.What some therapists do wrong that can make things worse.What to do if you’re the sibling caught in the middle.How to take responsibility, even if you don’t think you should.Early mistakes we make that can lead to estrangement.Early steps we can take to avoid estrangement.How long it takes to reconcile and where to even begin.The pain of separation is real, but it doesn’t have to be forever. Xo, Mel In this episode, you’ll learn:01:04: The silent epidemic that’s happening right now is estrangement.02:10: What is estrangement?04:42: How "cancel culture" is impacting relationships09:07: The horrible advice for estrangement Dr. Coleman got in therapy.12:24: What moving towards a child's trauma looks like14:07: How do you know if someone has deliberately cut you out of their life?16:32: The most common complaint adult children have for their parents19:56: One of the most common pathways to estrangement22:04: The most common mistakes estranged parents make24:32: Why you cannot take things personally26:35: Why radical acceptance is a required step in reconnecting29:50: Let’s unpack why guilt doesn’t work.35:20: What to do when reconciliation isn’t desired by the other person36:32: What are the steps towards reconciliation?39:07: Why Dr. Coleman says that parents have a moral obligation to take the high road42:10: The silent treatment is wrong. Here’s why47:15: When you should stop reaching out for reconciliation49:30: What is an amends letter, and how should you write it?56:18: How do you engage with someone who doesn’t want to engage with you?  Disclaimer

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Today, you and I are going to have a very enlightening conversation about a topic that most people don't want to talk about. The topic is a strange man, and don't you dare turn this podcast off. A strange man is something that we got to talk about because researchers say it's a silent epidemic. 50% of us will experience a strangement in our families in our lifetime. And just over the past couple of weeks, two fans of the Mel Robbins podcast have stopped me

out and about in real life. And when I asked them, well, what would you want me to do a podcast episode about? Both of them said, could you please do something about a strangement? And there was such a look of pain in their eyes. One woman hadn't talked to her sister in five years.

And the other listener was a man who was heartbroken over the fact that he and his wife hadn't spoken to their daughter in seven years due to their daughter's mental illness. This is so much more common than you think.

When I stopped to think about it, I realized, holy cow, this is present in my own life. In my extended family, it's present. And I even had an experience where my two closest friends, one of them stopped talking to the other one for three years. And I didn't have a clue what to do about it.

And so I'm listening, and I want to dig into this topic with you and learn from the world's leading expert on a strangement. So we can avoid it, and so we can reconcile if it is happening in your life. He is here, his name is Dr. Joshua Coleman, and he's a practicing psychologist in San Francisco. He's written four books. His research on adult astrangement has also been published in academic journals. He's here to help you understand this topic, why it happens, why it's on the rise, and more importantly, we're going to talk reconciliation.

Consider this conversation today, an invaluable toolkit for you to use, for you to share, to help you understand a strangement, and to help you, God forbid it happens to you, empower you to reconcile. All right, Dr. Joshua Coleman, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Thank you, thanks for having me.

Let's just start at the most basic level, and can you define for all of us what is a strangement? The way that I think of it is it's like a cutoff in a relationship that maybe temporary may be permanent. I think of it as a you know complete cutoff or near to complete cutoff. How common is a strangement? It's very common. And getting more common all the time, a recent study out of Ohio State so that 26% of fathers are strange from their kids.

So these have found that 10 to 11% of mothers are strange from their kids. But if you expand it out to family members in general, then something like 27% of families in the US are estranged from a family member. So it's incredibly common, growing more common all the time. Why do you think it's growing more common? I think it's a variety of reasons.

Our culture is becoming more identity-focused, more tribalistic. We have kind of in-group ideas and that no longer includes family. I think the notion of families radically changed prior to the 1960s or so. There was the idea of honor, my mother, my father, respect, my elders, families forever. And that's really been turned on its head. We're increasingly the idea is that of chosen family, the families who you make it, that people don't owe their parents anything, that's the most important thing is the preservation of my happiness, my well-being, my mental health.

So there's always been a strange, but it's been never before they've been based on the idea that it's actually good for one's mental health or it's even an act of existential courage to cut off a parent or a family member. And it's tied to what the sociologist Anthony Giddens talks about is the evolution from the role to self, whereas it used to be. They're very clear ideas prior to the 20th century. The idea is about what it takes to be a member of a family was fairly clearly

defined, being a good parent, being a good child, et cetera, being a good adult child. And then it changed much more in terms of orientation towards self. We've had the evolution of what he calls the pure relationship. Relationships are now purely constituted on the basis whether or not that relationship is aligned with that person's

ideals, their goals or aspirations for happiness, et cetera. And if they're not, then the relationship is viewed as being problematic and corruptive and not worth pursuing. Just that last point I want to highlight, because it's true. If someone thinks a relationship, whether it's a friendship, a sibling relationship, parent-child, if you view it as a problem,

people do ghost each other. Cancel culture isn't just limited in the media. It's happening in friendships and family. It seems like there's zero tolerance or maturity to have a deeper discussion with people about what you disagree about or why you're mad at somebody. And I'm sure that you see this between friends, siblings, not just parent-child relationships.

That has to be right. So Dr. Coleman, I'm fascinated with how you got into the work of counseling and supporting parents who are estranged from adult children. Can you tell us a little bit about how you came to do this? Sure. It was married into versus my 20s and I have a fully grown daughter who I'm very close to, but there was a period of time in her early 20s which she cut off contact for several years and large response to my becoming remarried and having children in my second and which was my current marriage of some 30 plus years.

In there are many ways that she felt displaced by that hurt by not so much the divorce because she was so young, but just by all the kind of things that can happen with divorce and remarriage and being of a blended family and all that. And at the time there was nothing really written to advise me or help me. I wasn't there to be the time trying to get help and the advice I got was terrible as it often is. What was the advice? You know, you need to remind her of all the things that you've done for her and correct her memories

and just show up at her place and kind of demand that she see you. None of them really caused her to feel understood or cared about or like I had an indigree of compassion for what her experience it was. So it really wasn't until I just learned how to stop explaining, stop defending, stop blaming, and respect where she was coming from that things began to turn. But during that time of a strangement, it was easily the most painful, awful, disorienting

thing I've ever been through, wherever, hoped to go through again. The idea that your child would cut you off and you would never, may never see them again, is horrifying, painful, and terrifying as well. So, once we did have a reconciliation, I thought so many people strung me with this. I wrote my first book on the topic in 2007 when parents hurt. I got a wide following of parents here and in other countries who are dealing with this. And as a result of that, I did a research study of 1600 strange parents that's been published in numerous academic journals.

They've developed a training program for therapists. So what typically drives someone to say, that's it, I'm gonna cut my parents or somebody else out of my life. Yeah, there's a number of pathways. Adult children, what they typically will say, as emotional abuse, physical abuse, neglect, differences in values. Those are the most common things reported by the adult child, but other pathways statistically

in my own research study and in my clinical practice, 70% of the parents have been through a divorce. So there's a number of ways that divorce can increase the risk. One is that they cause the child to blame, of any age to blame one parent over the other for the divorce. They can bring in new members, step siblings, half siblings, new step mother, step fathers,

have to compete for emotional and material resources. It may cause the child to support one parent over the other, even if the parents don't need that kind of support. Finally, and a highly individualistic culture like ours, it could cause the child to see the parents more as individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses and not as a family unit that they're a part of.

So, so, divorce is a clear risk. Mental illness in the parent, but equally mental illness in the child, in the adult child, the role of therapy, bad therapists or therapists, it just aren't very well educated in this, who assume that every problem that services an adult, it has childhood trauma at the heart of it, which isn't necessarily true by so many therapists believe that and put the adult child on the pathway to a strangement. I just want to make sure everybody hears that. So you're saying that there are lots of therapists out there that take whatever their client is telling them and facilitate the linking of childhood issues with a strangenment being something that they should consider? Yeah, consider or do. I mean, I've had numerous parents show me letters from adult children where they said, well, my therapist said that you're

a narcissist and you can't change. So I'm not willing to do family therapy with you. And, you know, these are all the therapists who've never met the parent, they're diagnosed and the parent from afar. And more problematic there, assuming childhood trauma is that may or may not exist. I mean, childhood traumas are a real thing. But at this day and age, there's the assumption that if somebody has a problem in adulthood, well, you just have to figure out where the childhood trauma wise and then the doors to

identity and happiness and meaning will be open. But that's really problematic. you just have to figure out where the childhood trauma wise and then the doors to identity and happiness and meaning will be open. But that's really problematic. We were really preoccupied with traumas at this point in our culture and society in a way that's really causing a lot of harm. My wheels are spinning as you're talking about this, Dr. Coleman. And I know that you're not being cavalier. You're not saying that trauma isn't real. If I'm listening to you

correctly, from your point of view based on the experience that you have, working with people who are trying to reconcile a strange relationship, you're highlighting the fact that childhood traumas, when they get revealed with a child or somebody in therapy, it can easily become a tripwire that leads to a strangement. And I can kind of see how that could happen, because when you dig up all that stuff and it gets revealed, it's a lot of work to move forward and heal it. And it's difficult to talk to your parents

about the things that didn't go right in your childhood or the things that you wish had gone differently. So I can see how people would either get stuck in the process of blaming or just not wanting to talk about it at all and distancing themselves. Sure. One of the challenges is that generations

are often talking past each other. So it's an important article by Nick Haslam, who's an Australian psychologist, and they called it concept creep. And what he found was that over the past three decades, well, his article came out in 2015, so it's more than that at this point. But there's been an expansion of what we consider

to be hurtful, traumatic, abusive, neglectful behavior. So often the adult child saying, it's neglected me, you're emotionally abusive, traumatized me, and the parents are like, why? Because they're looking at it from the way those terms were defined when they were growing up. Because the adult child is looking at it in a very different way. So often, if the adult child saying saying you emotionally abuse me, the parents, particularly a lot of these parents who've given their children a really good quality of life just can't relate to it. And so what I tell parents to say is it's clear that I have blind spots that I wasn't aware that that felt emotionally

abusive to you. I'm glad you let me know. I would like to learn more about what that felt like to you. How does impact it you? Is there something you'd like me to read? Which you like to get into therapy around it? Are there things you'd like me to work on in my own therapy? So again, it's kind of the point that you're making the parent has to really go toward the adult child's complaints rather than away from them. They do have to show a certain amount of courage and willingness to kind of get into the into the

really painful territory of how the child feels like they neglected them or hurt them or let them down and no parent really particularly wants to go there. Definitely not. That's not a fun place to be. So I'm sure that as people are listening, there's a bazillion bells going off and so I of course want to go, okay, well let's talk about childhood drama and all this stuff, but I want to stay in this topic because I personally believe that everybody listening has either had an experience with a strange man or they know somebody who's really struggling because of it. I mentioned this earlier, but in my own extended family, there's a person that I love who

died recently. And he had never met two of his grandkids. And I felt so helpless just wishing somehow that this could have been repaired right before he died. And knowing the heartache and the frustration and the anger and the sadness and all the grief that he carried with him before he died. And that's just the reality of what happens when somebody makes a decision to unilaterally cut you out of their life. And you don't even really know why. Right.

I have a question that may sound kind of obvious, but how do you know if this is a situation of a strangement that you're dealing with versus just the distance that can happen because you don't really like a relative. You know, like, yeah, maybe you don't get along with your brother or your sister. They're not your favorites. You don't really call them that often, but you're not really estranged. You just aren't making much of an effort. They still get the Christmas card. You still call them on their birthday, but they're not

like you're go-to for going out. And so there's a lot of distance there. How do you know if somebody has deliberately cut you out of their life? Now it's a good question. It's not the answer. It's in the adult obvious. I think that a lot of parents today end up getting more estranged because they're wanting more closeness from their adults. Have them in an adult child feels capable or desiring of getting. Dr. Coleman, it sounds like we're about to go down the path of all the things that we do wrong that can lead to a strangement or that keep us estranged. And so let's pause right here.

Here, a quick word from our sponsors who allow us to bring this all to you for zero cost. And when we return, we're going to dig into the mistakes that people make that can lead to a strangenment. We'll be right back. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm here with one of the world's leading experts on astrangement and reconciliation between family members, friends, siblings, none other than Dr. Joshua Coleman. And we were just about to start talking about the mistakes that people make that can lead to astrangement. Dr. Coleman? Yeah, there was a survey done at the University of Virginia that said that a majority of parents

raising children want and expect to be best friends with their children once they're grown. But a lot of adult children don't necessarily want that well, well, a closer intimacy. And one of the problems with social media is that it allows a certain kind of intrusion of the parent on the adult child that they might not want. Parents can reach their adult child anywhere in the world within a month or seconds. And so I think a certain percentage of adult children feel very crowded today, you know, with the most common complaint I hear in every single exchange of adult child's letters, you need to respect my boundaries. Right?

So, boundaries have become the most important thing, and it's important because parents raising children over the past four decades are more worried than we're worried about getting their children through the narrow bottleneck that can land a minute successful at life. So parents have become more anxious, more guilt-ridden, more intrusive, more surveilling, and that doesn't always work in the parent adult chivalry relationship in the long term. So to circle back to your question, it may not start out as an ashamed, but it may start out more as kind of normal distance. But as soon as the parent starts to act to victimize, to hurt, or criticizing the adult child, then they're putting themselves on the path to a potential

that's strange. You know, I can personally say there was a period in my relationship with my mom who I love deeply and I know she loves me. And there was a period of time where I was newly married and I was so enthusiastic about my husband and about his family. And we were living closer to my husband's family. My parents are in the Midwest, they're on the East Coast, and I know it was an extraordinarily painful period for my mom because she from a distance felt like she was losing me to another family.

Yeah, it's very common. And I started to sense that resentment or that fear, and that started to upset me. Yeah. And so we got into a period of time where we didn't know how to come together. Yeah. She would say something I would get offended. She would say something I would get offended. I would say something she would get offended. It felt like our relationship had all of these landmines that neither one of us wanted

there. I just wanted to get back to that. I just love you. You just love me. Without me doing a tremendous amount of therapy and without us even having almost like a period where we tolerated each other, that it could have led to a disastrous and hurtful situation for both of us because we're both very opinionated. We have big emotions.

We're very similar and we didn't know how to navigate this without hurting or upsetting the other person. And I'm so grateful it didn't end up differently. Because I feel closer to her now than I ever have. But I can see how just going, I'm not going to call them. I'm not going to pick up the phone. I'm not going to go visit. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to pick up the phone. I'm not going to go visit. I'm not going to do this. How not talking to somebody for a month,

or two months, or a couple months, and being that cold, uninterested, distant, would actually throw gasoline on the fire because the emotions build. And then every interaction is so high stakes. It's a recipe for disaster. Yeah, I think you're putting a finger on a couple of important things. What I was talking about the pathways too, a strange one, I didn't

was one of the most common pathways and that's when the child, the adult child, marries, and if there's conflict between the son and the son or daughter-in-law and the parent, sometimes the son and the daughter-in-law basically says to their spouse, choose me or them, you can't have both, and men in particular are vulnerable to that. But you're also putting your finger on the fact

that the parents can commonly feel like well, how can the other parents get to spend more time with you or the grandkids? In some ways, the parents of sons or more at risk of that because of what sociologists refer to as the matrilineal advantage, which means statistically, daughters are more likely to prioritize their own family. But that is a really common source of estrangement or beginning conflict. And to your point, then once conflict starts, it can't quickly spiral out of control and lead to an estrangement. And for parents, I think

most parents will kind of panicky when the adult child starts to pull back and be more distant, become less available. And that causes what John Gottman refers to as the pursuer distance or right dynamic. What is it called? become less available and that causes what John Gottman refers to as the pursuer distancer, right? Dynamic. What is it called? The pursuer distancer dynamic and it's associated with a high risk of divorce where one partner, more typically the wife is pursuing the other from our contact, we're intimacy, we're communication, the other person we're typically the husband, pulls back more,

becomes more shut down, and over time that dynamic is more justified and harder to change until the couples puts up a similar thing. I observe with parents and adult children around the Strangeloop, the parents start to pursue more and more and more like you're calling me blah, blah, blah, you know, and then they're off to the races. One of the reasons why I was so excited to talk to you is

because you're my favorite kind of expert. You not only have all the credentials, but you have the lived experience. What are the big mistakes that you see people who want to reconcile with somebody who's cut them off? Where are the big mistakes that people make or that you made? Yeah. There, you know, I have a whole webinar on this call,

the five most common mistakes of a strange parents, I'm sure I made all of them. The first one is thinking that it should be fair. You know, as soon as you think it should be fair, then you're going to, first of all, you're going to feel more victimized by your child, which is not a good place to be, both as a person, but also in terms of how you communicate. It's going to make you feel more angry and resentful

and that's going to come out. The idea that it should be fair is the idea like why was it much better apparent than it my own was, think about the sacrifices I made. You know, I was there for this kid in so many ways, but you know, from the parents perspective, it isn't fair. It's much more about

practically what works and what doesn't work. And that relates to the second cow in the steak. And that is thinking that you're going to motivate your child through guilt. Parents can no longer do that. Gilt is now considered a toxic coerce of corrupt the book of Forrest. It's an it's an aesthetic, I call it to the idea that the adult child doesn't have the parent anything and shouldn't feel guilt. So using guilt is not going to work, including statements like how miserable the adult child's making the parent feel through this arrangement.

Third common mistake, and I see therapists enabling this mistake, is returning fire with fire. The adult child says something angry or assertive or critical that the parent, you know, fires right back at them and tells them they're ungrateful and challenges them and, you know, and says, you can't talk to me that way. You need to respect me and it may be true that they want respect, but returning fire with fire never works. The fourth is assuming that it's all about the parent, which goes to what you and I were talking about before and about. There may be not as much contact because adult child's more preoccupied with their own life, their own children, their own career, their own social lives. You know, when I

tell parents, is, look, and we have adult children and grandchildren, they're a front and center of our minds, our heart, our consciousness. But for our adult children, that's not the same. We're not as a part of their hearts and minds and consciousness. And I know that it was true with my own parents as well, and they were alive. And like you, I was very close to them,

to my parents, I also grew up in the Midwest. So I just knew that when I called my parents or visited them, that, I mean, I liked both, but I knew it meant much more to them than it did to me. Similarly, if my adult children call me or visit me, I know it means more to me than it does to them. So the mistake is assuming that every bit of distance or non-responsiveness or not returning that text right away or that email or whatever is personal because once you make a personal, then you are on the pathway to a strange room.

The final mistake is feeling to recognize how long a strange room takes a reconcile. It's a marathon, it's not a sprint. And then even if you're taking the best next steps, that it still may be a matter of months or even years before you can get your child to respond. So those are the most common mistakes. Let me add one more.

And that is one of the key parts of my strategy with parents is helping them write an immense letter where they take responsibility, whether they're not defensive, they don't explain. They find the kernel, if not the bushler, truth, new children's complaints. And the common mistake I see with letters is that they say, well, if I did anything wrong, or, you know,

I'm sorry, you feel that way, or those kind of things which aren't really taking responsibility and not really facing the hard, cold truth about the mistakes that they made because as parents, we all make them. So, but it's a hard thing to do. I mean, I didn't love doing it myself when I did it, but it is the most effective way to potentially bridge a distance between a parent and an adult's well.

What I would love to do is go mistake by mistake and unpack it a little bit more so that we can understand how that mistake that we make when we're trying to make amends or trying to make contact with somebody who has cut us off, how it backfires, and what it feels like for the person that has cut you off, because I think that would be helpful. The first one was to think that things should be fair. Right. So why is that a mistake, and what do parents do that backfires?

You know, one of the things that I teach you, parents, particularly you've been in a longer term of changement is the principle of radical acceptance. And part of radical acceptance is saying that it is what it is. You know, I can take all the best steps, but I may not be able to do any better. And we think that things should be fair. We're really injecting a certain amount of

resentment and bitterness and unhappiness into the equation. So it isn't very helpful to one's mental health to sort of say, well, this isn't fair. I shouldn't be treated like this. I was such a good parent. I was a better parent, you know, than my own parents were. They're not acknowledging all the good things that I did. They're rewriting history. I mean, all those things may be true, but tormenting yourself with that kind of feeling is just going to make you miserable, but it's also going to make you more resentful to your adult child.

From your child's perspective, it's completely fair. They wouldn't be doing it unless they thought it was fair. So one of the things I tell parents should do when they write an immense letter is to start by saying, I know you wouldn't do this unless we fall. Like, it was the healthiest thing for you to do because that's how it feels to the adult child. And the parent has to get on the same page is the adult child. If this parent comes across as being defensive or blaming or not willing to take responsibility, game over it because the child is going to go screw you that. I'm not going to have a

relationship with it. This is why I did it in the first place. Exactly. That's right. That's right. relationship. This is why I did it in the first place. Exactly. That's right. That's right. And I think resentment is the powerful word there because in this feeling that things should be fair. Right. What you're not saying is I resent the fact that I gave you fucking everything. And this is what you're doing to me. Right. Exactly. And I see this even in myself. We were just yesterday, after school, quickly trying to find a black suit for my son for prom this weekend. And we went to three different places. Thankfully, we found something. And I turned to him and I said,

hey, can you give me a lift home before practice? And he said, oh, mom, I'm gonna, it's gonna make me late for practice. And I caught the words before they came out of my mouth that what I almost said to him, Dr. Coleman, was, are you fucking kidding me? I just spent an hour and a half with you and spent hundreds of dollars on a suit to support you.

You can't drive me 10 measly minutes home. And then I thought for a second, how is shaming or being resentful? Or kind of like, like that is a example of how I think I'm trying not to be transactional. I will love you when, if I buy you shit, you need to do something for me. But it's hard.

And so I can see how that opinion that I'm doing this for you, so it has to be fair. Right. On my terms. Right. On my terms. Because I could step into his shoes, which is what you basically ask your clients

to do, to get from the one side of the table, to putting your arm around your child and trying to see it from their point of view. I basically took him shopping because that was the window that was convenient for me. And so from his side, he was also accommodating me, and he didn't want to be late, which I can understand. So I love that because I think the resentment piece is what somebody who cuts you off picks up on. Talk about guilt for a minute. It just doesn't work anymore. As playing a culture's work still works. This is playing a culture's work. The notion of failure, obligation, duty to one's parents, et cetera, is still a

very actor. And it's more tolerated and accepted because the adult child is embraced those values. But in the rest of North American culture, there's the idea that adult children don't have their parents anything. And that guilt is a excessive coercive, corruptive demand. And so if the parent makes the child feel bad, then somehow they're now putting themselves in the role of being a toxic, narcissistic person who the adult child should cut off and order to preserve their own mental health. Dr. Coleman, I can tell you're really passionate about the fact that this is on the rise

about the fact that this is on the rise, and that you see this connection between the rise of individualism and a strangement from family members. What I want to do when we come back is I want to roleplay. I would love to play the role of being the person who's been estranged and you be the therapist

and walk us through what do we do here? We'll be right back. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing're talking about a Strangeman, which is on the rise. We're here with Dr. Joshua Coleman, who is one of the world's leading experts working with families and friends around the world, who are a strange seeking reconciliation, and I want to do role play. I want to put us all in a therapy session with Dr. Coleman.

So Dr. Coleman, let's say that you're with a parent or a parent who's been a stranger from a child or another family member. Where do you start with them? Most typically, a parent who wants the therapy and the adult child is being kind of coaxed into it. Either I'm reaching out to them to see if they'll do it, I'm helping the parent reach out to them in a way that will make it more likely that the adult child would consider doing the family therapy. But what I explain to both parent and adult child,

particularly parents is that reconciliation therapy is not marial therapy. Marial therapy, you both equally come in with equal claims what the marriage can look like, negotiate, you compromise, you meet some in the middle. Reconciliation therapy for the adult child is much more on the adult child's terms because they've already shown that they're willing to walk and that from their perspective, they're not in the same kind of pain that the parent is.

Now, they may have been in pain that caused them to cut off the parent, particularly if it was an abusive parent, et cetera, and their word childhood trauma is, childhood trauma is due exhaustive. Not at all saying that they're a myth. I am saying that we overstayed them, but there's certainly plenty of kids who have had real childhood traumas. And so they feel a certain sense of endagement in getting into the room with the parent because they feel like the strange minute is a way to protect themselves in their mental health. So I make it clear to them as well that I have your back that that this is really about helping your parent learn how to become more empathic, to become

more respectful of your boundaries, to take more responsibility for the ways that they were hurtful to you and to have a deep understanding of why you felt like an estrangement was in your best interest. And I tell the parent that as well because I don't want them to like get into therapy session and then feel kind of, you know, broadsided by me. I always say to them, if I side with anybody in the session, it's going to be with your adult child, because first of all, it's only me to keep them in the room. But second of all, it's just how I think about these dynamics. I think that even parents who did the best they could could still be really hurtful.

And even if it's something that might not have felt hurtful to some other family member, if it felt hurtful, that adult child, it's still incumbent on us as parents to take the lead, to take the high road, to show leadership, and to make the moves in the right direction towards healing. So, if we can get past that initial phase of therapy, where the parent can do a good job

in empathizing and taking responsibility and accepting the child's terms, then we can kind of proceed to a new phase where the parent can talk more about what a good relationship would feel like to them. And the adult child at that point is more willing to consider that, than as a silly guarantee to consider it, but they're in a much better place if they know that there are other boundaries of limits can be accepted and adopted. Can you and have you achieved reconciliation with people when the person that cut them out of their lives won't come to reconciliation therapy? Sure, and a really good men's letter can work

miracles that said they don't always work. There's really nothing I can tell every parent that she, if you only just do Coleman's five steps towards reconciliation. Because I'm adult children, they're just not ready. They're too matter-hurt. They're too influenced by the other parent-draftored divorce. They're too influenced by their therapist, by who they're married to. They may have a need to feel separate from the parent. So these strategies don't always work, but they often work, and when they do work, it's because the parents doing the right thing. There is a tremendous amount of content, coaching people to cut people out, to have boundaries,

which are important. But when you get to that point where you feel like, I don't have the ability to have this person in my life, it's easier to just stop having a relationship with them. What are the five steps for somebody who's on the receiving end of that? Because we don't talk about that a lot. Your parents did the best they could. If you look at the way your parents were treated growing up, it explains a lot about what they did.

Doesn't justify it, Dr. Coleman. I agree. But it certainly explains it. So what do you do? I mean, what are the steps to reconciliation? And are they the same steps if it's an adult child coming to work with you? Who wants to reconcile with a parent? Yeah.

I increasingly am having more adult children contact me who the parents cut them off. Really? Or even if the parents haven't cut them off, they just want to improve relationship. Does this process of reconciliation and the amends letter also work for siblings or friends? Siblings are more complicated because for parents it's very easy for me to get a parent to take the high road to take responsibility because there's so much pain. But siblings is more tricky because parents are willing to walk over hot cools, which is sometimes required.

But siblings typically aren't. So somebody has to take the high road. Somebody has to be willing to not get pulled into the weeds to make a man should probably take more responsibility than they think is fair. I mean, both siblings are equally motivated to heal the relationship, and I have worked with those kind of siblings, that's easier than it's more like marriage therapy. You can examine the dynamics that shape them both

and get them, we're not gonna communicate more and kind of make the conscious process as much more conscious, but more typically one sibling is completely estranged and the other sibling is in pain about the estranged. So typically the person who's in the most pain has to show more leadership. So that's the tricky part. Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean when you said that's the tricky part?

If a child gets off a parent there's a feeling like, well it is my obligation to heal this. Even if they feel like they're innocent, they can feel enormous sense of shame that their If a child cuts off a parent, there's a feeling like, well, it is my obligation to heal this. Even if they feel like they're innocent, they can feel enormous sense of shame that their child feels like they've failed. There are parents who won't do what I tell them to do. I can't tell them if they will. I have to tell parents, this isn't about, you know, right or wrong, per se. It's about the practicality.

Isn't there right or wrong when somebody cuts you out of their life? I mean, particularly if they don't even tell you why they stop talking to you? I mean, I do think that there is a moral basis to what I preach. The parents should take the high road. Their children didn't choose to have them. Therefore, it isn't coming on parents to take the high road and take responsibility and knock it pulled into the weeds and not return far with fire. I love what you said.

And I just want to take a highlighter and make sure that everybody heard something that you said. You said that your personal belief is that the parents have a moral obligation to take the higher road because they chose to bring their children into the world. Correct. And I think that's an interesting thing to think about because you're right. We forget as parents that were the ones that brought them into the world.

Right. They didn't choose us. We chose and created them. Exactly. And that doesn't mean they owe us anything. If anything, it means we owe them something. Yeah, I would say two things of that. What is that? I extend that even to wills. Like a lot of the appearance of my practice. You have been treated miserably by their adult children. And it wouldn't surprise me. I'm sympathetic to some of these parents who want to cut the kids out of their will.

But I say, I don't support parents doing that because it seems like my natural reflection is of course, if you're going to cut me out of your life, why the fuck would I give you any money? Because I've been paying for your ass your whole adult life. Why would I continue to do that if you don't even, do you see how quickly I could go into that? I'm an angry resentful parent. Sure. Yeah. No, I would say that. Why should somebody who's had a kid cut them out actually give them money? The reason is that we're parents forever and we're parenting long after we're gone.

I mean, my parents are both dead and they still continue. They're influenced, still persist with me. Some good ways and some bad ways. I don't think our responsibility as parents ends when we die. And as much as I hate the way some of these adult children treat their parents, how contemptuous, how self-righteous, how rejecting they are, how much they've emisorated the life of the parent, I still think that the role of parent continues after the parent dies. And it's also an issue, a question of what do you want your legacy to be? Do you want your legacy to be?

Do you want your legacy to be that you punished your child from the grave? And that doesn't mean parents have to give their child every single penny, but that they might give them what they would give them if they were still alive. A, and B, if there's other siblings, it greatly complicates a sibling relationship if one of the children is kind of well. So yes, I do think there's a moral obligation to parents. I think there also is a moral obligation from adult children that we've lost sight of in this culture.

I actually do think that adult children owe the parents something. I agree with you, Dr. Coleman, but this is what pisses me off is when people cut other people out of their life without any explanation and they use silence as a power move. If you've been friends for a long time or you're related and grew up with somebody or they're your parent or your child, I personally think it's wrong. I think it's wrong on a basic human level, that you owe your former best friend or your family member an explanation. Period. You don't have to reconcile, but to just drop the guillotine on communication

and not explain why, that's not a sign of somebody who's mature. And for those of you that are now going to get pissed off and write to me about, I'm never listening to this podcast again, ask yourself this, why are you triggered? Why are you triggered? Are you triggered because you know that the explanation is owed and that it is somewhat cowardly to just stop talking to somebody and then avoiding them and not responding to their outreach? or are you triggered because you're dealing with somebody who is abusive, and you feel like the explanation has already been given based on what happened. And if that's the case, then you've already communicated.

And there's no reason to be triggered by what I'm saying. You were the mature person because you pointed it out and then you left. I'm talking about the person who just stonewalls somebody. And it's very clear from the immense letter or the outreach or the phone calls that this person has no clue why. Even if they're just obtuse as hell. Consider doing them the favor of writing it out. Because if they have it in writing, at least then, they can go to a therapist or a professional and perhaps work on themselves.

I totally agree with you. I just don't think that parents can demand that or extract it or guilt trip the child into doing it. Some of the reasons that adults who are in caught off contact aren't because the parent was abusive or neglectful, it's because, you know, their therapist has convinced them that the parent was more responsible for how their wives turned out than they were. Or they, they, they kid, got married to somebody who hates the parent and the kid isn't strong enough to stand up to their spouse and say no, my parents, I want us, them to see them

and I want them to see their grandchildren regardless. So in the same way, the parents of a moral obligation, I think adult children do too. That's a really important point, Dr. Coleman. There's another person in our extended family that I can think about right now who married someone who turned this person in our family against the entire family. But here's the thing, of course, as soon as there was a funeral, boy, oh boy, did they show up sweet as pie dressed to the nines? Because there's inheritance coming. There's stuff to pick through. So I know this is happening probably in everybody's extended family. And look, I realize their important situations where cutting off contact is the healthiest, safest option for you.

That's not what we're talking about here. Now that doesn't mean that they're obligated to stay in contact no matter how abusive or hurtful or critical or shaming, or rejecting the parent is. But they are morally obligated to give the parent a time of due diligence, to repair, to do therapy, to hear them out,

to think of the parent in a more three-dimensional way, to view it from the perspective that you were saying earlier that they did the best they could, not in a way that they're just going to be forgiven for no matter how crappy their parenting was, but that perspective of compassion rather than contempt. So, I think both sides there's moral obligations. That's beautiful. And I mentioned about this second person in my family that had never met his two grandkids. I mean, it was heartbreaking. And they did show up at the memorial service.

I don't know what to say. Yeah. And I think you probably see that a lot that people show up in death. Yeah. Because there is something deeper that connects us all. And I think that that's what that speaks to. And we have this inability as emotional beings to navigate what feels like endless landmines that can develop between us. Let's focus on the five steps. Like what do we do if you know, okay, I'm gonna go see Dr. Coleman. What are the five steps that people can take

in any situation, in any relationship where there has been an astrangement? What are the steps, Dr? Yeah. Well, what I have to tell parents is there's a lot of things you can do wrong, then you can do right. So there's a lot more things you can do wrong than you can do right So you know the things you can do wrong or contain in the the five most common mistakes that we've already discussed the things that you can do right are to To show compassion to take responsibility

To find the curl if not the bushel of truth and a child's complaints to to communicate that you know that they wouldn't cut off contact unless they felt like it was the healthiest thing for them to do. If you have no idea what the reasons are and some parents don't, to say that it's clear I have significant blind spots as a parent as a person that I don't have a deeper understanding but I want to, would you feel comfortable writing me

and telling me more about what your thoughts or feelings are that make you feel like this is the healthiest thing for you to do? I promised to listen or read purely from the perspective of learning and not any way to defend myself. You know, on the one hand, I do not give up, but it's something you might have to stop as a show respect. Can you give us an example of when you should stop reaching out? Well, if you're getting your letters returned unopened, returned to sender, you know, threats of the police called in you, communicating through an attorney or your kids just get so unraveled, then you should just stop completely for a year. Sometimes stopping completely works because the adult child can feel like the parent is respecting their boundaries finally,

it can make them respect the parent more of this and not just continuing to try no matter what, that it will be saying, how can I miss you if you don't go away, sometimes to a family life, I can create, you know, that sort of space, the adult child to come into. So there's a lot of reasons why sometimes just stopping is the right thing. There's something that you write about in your work, Dr. Coleman, that you call the lighthouse model. Can you explain that to us? This is particularly to the pants

who've been victims of parental alienation, where they've been brainwashed against the parent, by the other parent after a divorce, is to embody what I call kind of the lighthouse model that you're just there on the beach, you're steady, you're broadcasting light from this definite point on the beach while your child is, you're broadcasting life from its definite point on the beach while your child is being pushed up and down out at sea by the waves and sometimes

they'll come out and see you standing on the beach there broadcasting light and they'll get oriented towards you but then they'll be carried back out to sea and pushed under water. Oh my God. As I sit here listening to you, Dr. Coleman, I can think of a bunch of people that I know that have gone through a divorce and that's exactly what happened. The kids drifted toward one parent and the other parent felt completely alienated. And come to think of it, I've experienced this kind of dynamic or feeling too,

as a parent, when our kids have been in a relationship with somebody that we don't really like, and they kind of drift away from us toward the person they're in the relationship with. So this analogy that you just explained that people can get caught up in the waves of life and carry it out to see, it's so useful because it bottom lines what you need to do when you feel like your kids or your parents or your friends you're drifting away from you. Just keep broadcasting the light and the love from where you are so that they know you're there.

And at some point, as you so beautifully said, they'll be carried back toward you. Your task as a parent is to be steady and loving and compassionate and available in responsibility-taking and hope that over time your child can find their way back to you through those efforts. Can you describe what an immense letter is and how you write one?

Sure. First of all, they're much shorter than the parents often. They should be typically two paragraphs. You don't want to be so long that, you know, sort of so much rope that you're going to hang yourself with it. It should be courageous, a fearless moral inventory of your character flaws. If your child has made complaints about you to be able to to really fearlessly say what those were and how you can see how that could have impacted your child, that might have

been hurtful or traumatizing to that or damaging to them or effective their feelings of trust or safety or security in you or the relationship with you. That's critically important to not blame anybody else, to not make excuses, to not say, well, I was a single mother, well, your dad didn't pay any child support, well, your mother, blame me for divorce when it wasn't my fault, or you had ADD or learning disabilities, or you had your own issues, or no, no, no, it's 100% about empathy, responsibility, taking. But there has to be blood on the tracks, meaning that the parent has to actually show courage

in facing their own character flaws, not in a self-hating way, but just in a way that's critically important as well. It shouldn't be an exercise. And massacism, even though it is a painful thing to do, I understand from my own personal experience, they're not fun letters to write. They're actually super hard. What was it like for you to write one to your daughter

when she cut you off? Well, I mean, there's two things that go into it. One is, is this gonna work? And the other is just having to face the reality of some of her complaints. when she cut you off. Well, I mean, there's two things that go into it. One is this is going to work. And the other is just having to face the reality of some of her complaints. I mean, I can empathize with the ways that she felt sort of sideline when I remarried another children

and how my children from my second, my current marriage, had a much better quality of life and were raised in the context of a stable marriage. And she didn't have that. And she was kind of went back and forth between two homes. There was conflict with me and her mother. And it was a lot, it was a lot there to be hurt and upset and feel displaced about. So it's very painful. You know, numerous times we've cried together about it because it was, yeah, it's just really painful. What was her response to your letter? Good. To her credit, I was just lucky that my daughter had whatever it is that causes an adult

child to forgive and to accept. Not all parents or just as dedicated or empathic as me or communicate just as well or better than I did, is the adult child wasn't or isn't willing or able to do that. But I was lucky that she was able to. Now, it didn't happen right away. And it often does. That's why I say, it's often a marathon, not a sprint. So it took a while and actually it wasn't just like one simple thing, like, oh, great, closet parted, all this for a given.

Now, it still comes up periodically. Those kind of things are fault wines and a parent-of-jolt child relationship that will always be there in one form or another. What if you're the one that's in the middle? I've been in a situation where my two closest friends, one cut the other one off and didn't talk to her for three years. Yep.

And I was in a relationship with both of them. And one kept trying to reconcile and absolute stone wall from the other. Yeah. What do you do if you're the sibling or the other child or you're the friend in the middle? Yeah, well, it's often that one child is a strange and the other sibling is not a strange from the parents. And what I tell parents is you can't really have your non-estrange child advocate for you. First of all, if one of your children is a strange from you, they are showing that they're capable of using a strange, but so they may well, a strange at sibling. Second of all, a sibling may say that if you're acting

like our parents advocate, I will cut you off. So often the strange sibling makes the not a strange sibling swear that they won't reveal what the reasons are, with the thinking or feeling, sometimes even where they live. So I tell parents that they have to accept that boundary and limit as difficult as it is. The other thing I tell parents is that if you have one kid as a strange, you don't want to not exchange kids to feel like they have to sort of hold up some ear of you as the great parent. They know how much pain you're in. You're better off saying to them something like your sister, your brother's estranged, but I don't let you're in. You're better off saying to them something like, your sister, your brothers are changed,

but I don't let you to feel like you have to sort of, you know, repair myself a steam by making me feel like I'm a great parent or whatever. You may have the same complaints about me or you may have different complaints, but I want you to feel like you have the room to do that without worrying about being a really burdensome to me. Now, if you're the friend, it's sort of a similar dynamic

where you don't really have that kind of power to really change very much about it. Really wants to have your friendship to be overly outweighed one against the other, even if you think that, you know, when person's more fall or more troubled or more difficult. So we can be sympathetic,

but if you put yourself in a position of advocacy, that can cause the person who's being advocated against to feel more misunderstood or ganged up on it, that kind of thing. I think if there's one thing I'm taking away from this incredible conversation, is that when this happens, there's typically on the part of the person

that is estranged, this story or feeling that you just don't get it. And I'm tired of trying to explain it, and I'm tired of you defending yourself, and it's just easier and better for me to remove this from my life right now. It must be a profoundly painful and challenging and humbling thing to do to say this is so important to me that I'm going to be the leader in this process and the only way that we're going to make progress is if the person that's cut me out actually feels like they've been validated and understood

without me defending myself. Yeah. No, I think it's really well said because it's a really good summary of what this looks like and feels like. So when you get to the point where it's like, okay, I have gotten the message you don't want to talk. I'm going to just go silent for a year. Do you send somebody flowers on their birthday?

How do you engage with somebody who doesn't want to engage with you? Yeah, well, there do is between, you know, some Akito's a minor, which I would say that parents shouldn't give up. Ristic Kitt is, you know, a more full-fledged adult. If somebody's going to let the line go cold for my recommendations

I recommend they don't do anything because I think that for some adult children They really need to feel that parents absence for some of the arrangements They're really trying to get in touch with a certain part of themselves that they don't feel like they can access with the parent Involved in their life the's son ways is too important. And then my parent feels really unimportant because the adult child is sort of closed off contact in every avenue of access. But the adult child is doing it

because they feel like the parent's too important in their mind. So if the parent can be no contact and allows the adult child to feel themselves in a different way in relationships with the parent. So, that's what I call a loser parent, find yourself. I want to make sure that we leave people feeling empowered. We are going to link to absolutely everything from your books to anything that you have

about how you write an amends letter so that people have a template. I would love to know if this is happening to you, what is the first couple steps that you want people to take immediately after listening to this? The most powerful thing is to write a really good amends letter and those also aren't really easy to do. They're carrot- counterintuitive and getting to write them in a way that doesn't sound defensive or overly explanatory or et cetera. That's the single most important thing you can do.

Stop defending, stop explaining. Assume your child has very good reasons, even if you don't understand them. Even if you find their rewriting history to really approach them with a perspective of love and learning and respect for their boundaries or that they get to set the terms of their relationship. Those are really the most important principles. And I think people catch these dynamics early enough on. They're in a much better position than if it's gone for a number of years. If you are in a situation where you are sensing

that the boyfriend or girlfriend or new husband or spouse is starting to pull your child away from you. What should you do now to stop that sort of distancing that can happen? Well, you have to see that that person is the gatekeeper to your child and to your potential or current grandchildren. So you can't say anything that's going to threaten them and some people are married to really troubled people. So more trouble during southern Florida, the more you have to kind of walk in eggshells. You can't demand anything from them. You don't want to say anything critical about them to your child because it all likely it will be passed on to that.

Sunilari daughter-in-law, and once that happens, you're kind of screwed. If you have done that, as many people have, and you want to work your tail off to repair that and make amends to that Sunilari daughter-in-law, but they're the gay keeper, they have a new alpha. You know, once you, your kin marries, you are in some ways being replaced, but it's developmentally appropriate. But the more parents complain about it and don't accept that transition, the worse it is. And all the years that you've been counseling people, what is the hopeful message here? I mean, the hopeful message is that statistically, most people do have reconciliation. I mean, I don't have them right away, but the majority of the

arrangements do eventually reconcile. Why do you think that is? I mean, I think as people mature and grow, they're probably able to see their parents with more clarity, and they become parents themselves, and you'll be able to face what that would be like, or they want their children to have, you know, relationship with their grandparents, even though the notion of family being forever is a much more diluted concept than it once was. I think it's still part of our culture.

So I think people do feel some kind of a tendency in that direction, which may motivate them more towards pursuing that. We started this by talking about this really interesting shift in culture that has led to this silent epidemic of a strangement. There is less emphasis on family and more on kind of your chosen family and your friends being the family that you choose. What do you wish you would see in our culture on how people are thinking about this. Yeah, I think that we're sorely lacking in empathy and compassion in this culture,

and it's ruining us, it's a society. Having compassion and forgiveness, it doesn't mean you're giving somebody a pass who's been hurtful to you. In some ways, you can feel more grounding. People who are a stranger have kind of a more victimized identity. Will you hurt me? So I don't owe you anything. And I've been victimized by you. So I'm cutting you off, and that makes me a stronger person.

Well, does it really? I don't really know that it does. I think parents have to do a better job in taking responsibility and showing compassion and empathy. And I think adults children have to do a better job in showing compassion and empathy. And I think adults learn how to do a better job and showing compassion and empathy for their parents. Dr. Coleman, thank you so much for your work. It's been a real honor spending time and learning from you.

Likewise, it's good to talk to you. Thank you. And I want to make sure that you hear me tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and I'm not going anywhere. I'm here Mondays and Thursdays. There is no a strangement between you and me. I'm gonna hold your hand. I am gonna put my arm around you. I'm gonna do whatever I can to understand and to support you because that's what I want to do. Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days.

Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days. Okay, so let me think about this. Hold on a second, I don't think I want to start there. Let's see, why don't I just close this down and just kind of talk to the... Talk to... Nice start over. Oh my God! Sorry. Okay, here we go. I started over. Oh my God. Sorry.

Okay, here we go. These kids are yelling out there. Can't just see that our recording light is on. I'm gonna astrange these friends of my sons from myself. That's not a thing that could happen. Okay, here we go. Ha, okay.

Who? Who? Is that the cat or my, okay. He does not want to listen to the topic of a strangement, but you do. Okay, excellent. Oh, and one more thing. I know this is not a blooper.

This is the legal language. You know what the lawyer's right and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professionals. Got it? Good.

I'll see you in the next episode. you