The Peter Attia Drive - #104 - COVID-19 for kids with Olivia Attia

Episode Date: April 8, 2020

In this episode, Peter sits down with his daughter to answer questions from her and other kids about COVID-19. We discuss: What is a virus? [1:45]; How did this version of coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) start? [4:30]; How does COVID-19 compare to SARS and MERS (previous coronaviruses)? [6:00]; Will COVID-19 come back again after we resolve the current issue? [7:15]; When will kids go back to school? [7:45]; How has the US surpassed China in total cases, and how could we have been better prepared for this? [8:30]; Should have we started to quarantine sooner than we actually did? [11:45]; What about herd immunity? Would it be easier if we all just got the virus so we could be immune? [13:45]; Which age groups are the least and most at risk for getting a deadly version of the virus? [15:00]; Why do we have to wipe down packages that are delivered to our homes? [16:30]; How a lack of preparation and discipline led to this troubling situation [18:45]; Is China to blame for all of this? [24:15]; What did Olivia think when her parents pulled her out of school before it was mandated? [26:30]; What's been the hardest part of this for Olivia? [27:50]; What does Olivia appreciate now that she probably didn't appreciate in the past? [28:50]; How are Olivia’s zone 2 workouts going? [30:00]; and More Learn more: https://peterattiamd.com/ Show notes page for this episode: https://peterattiamd.com/covid-19-for-kids Subscribe to receive exclusive subscriber-only content: https://peterattiamd.com/subscribe/ Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://peterattiamd.com/newsletter/ Connect with Peter on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram.

Hey everyone, welcome to the Drive Podcast. I'm your host, Peter Atia. This podcast, my website, and my weekly newsletter, all focus on the goal of translating the science of longevity into something accessible for everyone. Our goal is to provide the best content in health and wellness, full stop, and we've assembled a great team of analysts to make this happen. If you enjoy this podcast, we've created a membership program that brings you far more in-depth content if you want to take your knowledge of this space to the next level. At the end of this episode, I'll explain what those benefits are, or if you want to learn

more now, head over to peteratia MD dot com forward slash subscribe. Now without further delay, here's today's episode. Hey everyone, welcome to a special edition of the COVID series. This is going to be COVID for kids. So my guest today is my daughter Olivia. And this was mostly her interviewing me, but also a little bit of a discussion in me asking her some questions as well, all pertaining to the coronavirus, but really through the lens of questions that Olivia had. So if you're a listener of the podcast and you have kids, this might be the one episode that you want to sort of bring your kids into. It has hopefully it answers a lot of the questions that they've probably been asking you,

and maybe these are some of the questions you don't have answers to. So anyway, I hope you enjoy this special episode of the coronavirus series, coronavirus for kids. Oh! Ah! Hey dad, so I know you've done podcasts about questions people had on the coronavirus for adults

But I thought we could do one for kids. So the first thing I'm gonna ask you is what even is a virus? Well a virus is a Sort of living kind of living thing that has genetic material in it Which all of your cells have genetic material in them? But these viruses, they can't replicate on their own. So you know how like you get big, your hair gets longer, your nails get longer, you get taller, all of these things are cells in your body that are dividing. Yeah. Well, viruses can't divide without using another body. They don't have the machinery, so to speak, to divide on their

own. So they have to infect a host. That's the term we use to do that. Now, it's important to understand how small a virus is. Do you have a sense of how small they are? Kind of. Do you think you can see them? No way. That's right. No way. So a virus is like about a hundred nanometers wide. Do you know what a nanometer is? Something very small. Yeah, it's like a billionth of a meter. So if we were to cut one of your hairs and you can barely see the end of your hair when it's cut, right?

How many coronaviruses do you think you could line up across the tip of your hair if it were cut? Probably hundreds. Yeah, about a thousand, actually. A thousand. So, think about how small that is. That's very small. So, we can't see these things, but these virtually invisible things without special types of microscopes,

they get into our bodies and the bodies of other animals and they use our body to make more copies of themselves. And a lot of times when viruses do that, they don't really hurt us or hurt the person or animal that they're infecting. But sometimes they do. So when you think about bad colds that you've had or nasty GI bugs that you've had, that's just a virus that is causing that pain and suffering to you as part of its replicating process.

Okay. So I'm sure a lot of people are wondering this. So how do you know so much about this virus? Well, I don't think I know that much about it. I mean, to be clear, I didn't know anything about it until a couple of months ago. So there are people who spend as much time as I spend thinking about longevity or formula one or all the other things that I love to think about. There are people who spend their whole lives thinking about these viruses.

And so I just have talked to a lot of those people. And that's how I've learned a little bit that I think I've learned in the last couple of months. But the reality of it is I pretty much a noob. Okay. So how did the coronavirus start? Well, I think we have a pretty good sense that this virus, this particular coronavirus, and to be clear, there are many coronaviruses, but this particular one, which now has a formal name, that name is SARS-CoV-2. So just like your name is Olivia, that guy's name is SARS-CoV-2.

It causes a disease called COVID-19. That virus probably originated in bats, but the most recent evidence we have suggests that it went from a bat to something called a pangolin. You know what a pangolin is? Yeah. It's like a mini ant eater. Like, a picture of a little tiny, scaly armadillo-looking thing that eats ants and little insects. And these are little tiny mammals that are actually quite protected in China because they're endangered. But there is some illegal poaching of these things, and people do, I believe they use their scales for

medicinal purposes and things like that. So I think the current genetic analysis suggests it went from a bat to a pangolin to a human. The first person was infected with that in this part of China called Wuhan probably in about November of last year. So relatively recent. So like you said, this isn't the first time corona has showed up, but it's definitely the worst time I'm assuming, right? Yes and no, I think it depends how you define the worst. It's definitely infecting a lot of people,

but there have been other coronaviruses that have shown up to in particular in the past 15 or 20 years that have been more lethal, meaning a higher number of the people who got the infection died. So one of those was called SARS, and one of those was called MERS, and those would kill somewhere between 10 and 30% SARS, about 10% MERS, about 30% of the people who got it. That's a huge number, right? That means in the case of SARS, one out of every 10 people that got the infection died, in the case of mer's, one out of every three people died. Think about that. But the good news is those viruses didn't spread very far.

So very few people got them. So in some ways those were worse viruses. Of course, this one is spreading a lot. At this point in time, we've got over a million confirmed cases, but of course, we probably have tens of millions of unconfirmed cases. But there are other coronaviruses that come and go every summer that have infected many more people than that, but they just don't cause anything more than a miserable cold. All right. So like you were saying, this has been a problem before, but do you think it

will show up again after this, assuming it's all resolved at some point? You mean this one in particular or another one? This one. I think it's a bit too soon to say, but probably. Could another one show up? Yeah. All right. So this next question I'm going to ask you is probably the one all kids are wondering, when do you think we're going to be able to go back to school?

I don't really know. If I really had to guess, I don't think you're going back to school this year. Right. And I've heard some people say that not even until maybe next year is that true? I think it's really too soon to say, I know that sounds like a cop-out answer, but there are so many things we don't yet know. Like we don't actually know how many people have this infection. And it could be that a lot of people already have the infection and they're doing really

well and it's not causing that much harm. And in that case, people who aren't at very high risk for getting very sick could mosey on back to school and move back into work and things like that. But it's also possible that we have to be much more careful and much more concerned. And if that's the case, then this quarantine might be something that lasts a little bit longer.

Yeah. So I've just recently heard that the US has hit more cases in China. Why do you think that is? Well, that's a long story. And it's one that gets my blood a little bit boiling. So I don't want to talk about it too much. I mean, basically, we didn't do a good job of preparing for it of a couple of things. So we didn't heed our warnings.

So we had very clear warning signs that this virus was out there, and that this virus was very infectious. Furthermore, we had lots of evidence that it could easily spread outside of China. But we didn't take a bunch of steps we should have taken. Now, part of this is not just what we did or didn't do in the last couple of months, but really this is a much bigger problem that goes back a number of years. We don't really have the infrastructure in place to prepare for something like this, because for example, we don't have a national stock pile of the type of equipment that doctors and nurses would need to be protected from this if

they're taking care of a bunch of people that got sick. At the beginning of January, when the Chinese government and Chinese scientists were able to figure out exactly what this virus looked like. That's called sequencing. That's when you can actually look at the, basically the fingerprint of what this virus looks like. So you have a very unique fingerprint. If I took one of your hairs and took it to a lab, they could tell me exactly what your DNA sequence looks like, and you're the only person in the world that has that. So we would know exactly what Olivia looks like. And similarly, at the first week, second week of January,

the scientists in China had already done that for this virus. And that would have been a great time to have doubled down on developing tests in the United States, or taking tests that others had developed and making sure we had enough of them, because testing is a really important part of this.

That's a big way that you can help understand how people have it and don't have it and how you need to isolate the people that have it from those who don't. So, without having all those systems in place, we were also a little bit late to the party in terms of understanding what to do when people showed up and were infected. So we had our first case, basically at about the same time that a country like South Korea had their first case. But we have now had more than five times the number of deaths for an adjusted population, meaning for every million people in the United States, versus every million people in South Korea, we've already had five times the number of deaths, even though we both started at the same time effectively.

And that speaks to sort of not being able to put these measures in place. All right. So you were saying that you weren't very prepared and listening to the warning. So how could we have been better prepared and more aware of this? Well, I mean, I think it's sort of what I just said. Part of it is non-specific type of preparedness. So it's having the infrastructure in place to deal with pandemics. So it's having like a pandemic preparedness program that is well-funded, that has all of these things that don't seem that interesting when you don't need them

laying around ready. And then part of it is very specific to this case, which is this is a really tough virus because it spreads pretty aggressively, more aggressively than say the flu virus. And look, I just don't think our leaders were doing a great job. Do you think it would have helped if people started to quarantine sooner than they actually did? Yes, I think it would have, especially in places like New York, New Orleans, probably Florida. So there are places where a lot of things just went kind of sideways. Like New York has a high density of people.

You've been there a bunch. You know what New York is like compared to San Diego. You can imagine that a virus that can spread basically by you breathing on somebody is much more likely in New York. Imagine you're sitting on the subway. You have these people that have to commute in and out of Manhattan every day from these different burrows.

So you just have a high population that's close together that has these commuting challenges where they're in close proximity to others. And so all of those things would lead to kind of an amplification. And I think that in some ways, New York has done the best job it could, but it probably started a little later than would have been ideal compared to what we now know from other countries. Yeah. So some people are saying they just want to get the virus and be over it,

meaning they won't have to quarantine anymore, and they've already been exposed to the virus, so it would be a lot easier. Do you think that's a good idea? So the technical term for that idea is called herd immunity. You know what a herd is? Probably when you get it so that your body is used to it. Well, yeah, but like the herd means everybody, you know what I mean? So the idea would be once you have chicken pox, do you remember when you had chicken pox

and you were a kid? You're lucky. You didn't have to get it that bad because you already got a vaccine for it. But when I was a kid, we didn't have a vaccine for chicken pox. So when we got it, it was really bad. But once you get the chicken pox or once you get the vaccine for it, you're not really going to get it again. Technically, you can get a cousin of chicken pox called shingles when you get a lot

older. So that's what people want. They think they won't be able to get it again. That's right, but there are a couple things. One, we don't really know exactly what the immunity looks like. In other words, we don't know that once you get this coronavirus, if you recover from it, and let's say you're one of the majority of people who recover from it, and to be clear,

most people who get this virus recover from it, at a minimum 80% due, but it could be significantly higher, it could be 95%. We don't know if that immunity is going to last them for another six months, another year, another five years for the rest of their lives, we don't know. The second thing is, there are certain people who are at high enough risk to get sick from

the virus that you might not want to take the chance of letting them just get infected. So you and your friends are at virtually no risk from this virus. In fact, in the United States, as of this time, there is not a single person your age who has died from this virus. That's good. Yeah, it's good for you, but you have to understand that you could still transmit it to somebody. So if you lived with your grandparents, and you were back at school, and you and all your friends had it, and obviously you'd be great that none of you would get very sick, but what if you came home and gave it to one of your grandparents or gave it to somebody who was at a higher risk and then they transmitted it.

So it's a bit complicated to think of that, but it's definitely something that might end up happening and we just don't know it yet. In other words, we don't really know how many people have already been infected. So you're saying different age groups can have a better or lower chance of getting it? I don't know if it's a better or lower chance of getting it, but it's definitely a better or worse chance of dying from it or being hospitalized for sure. So the younger you are, the better you are, your risk is,

and the fewer diseases you have, like high blood pressure or diabetes or things like that, the better your chances of surviving it. All right. So what should a proper quarantine look like? Because I know that while we're quarantined, we sometimes order things from Amazon, and when they order the packages, we have a specific way of taking them out. Like, we don't bring them inside.

We have to wash our hands and take it apart outside. So explain that kind of. Well, do you know why we're doing that, by the way? What are we afraid of? We don't want to bring the germs in. Right, there is a chance that there could be some virus on the cardboard box. So let's assume that the person delivering the bag

or the box or the person who touched it a few hours earlier, has the virus. Maybe they don't even realize they have the virus. And the virus is sitting there on the cardboard and then that cardboard box gets dropped off at your door. So there was a study that was published about three weeks ago that actually looked at putting the virus on different surfaces, cardboard, plastic, steel, copper, those sorts of different things. And it started to measure how long the virus could survive on those surfaces. And what came of that study was that this virus can live for a day, maybe two days, on cardboard.

So what you want to do is sort of assume that anything you come in contact with potentially has some amount of virus on it. Now, that study doesn't really tell us you can get infected from that. Because maybe there's not enough virus that's really surviving that you're going to get it all over you and if you don't take appropriate precautions, it's going to infect you. But it seems to me at least that the safest thing to do is to assume that anything that shows up has some amount of the virus on it and that virus could potentially infect you. So what we're doing is we're opening Amazon packages outside, we're cleaning off the contents of them, and then

just washing our hands really thoroughly. And do you remember how long we have to wash our hands for? 20 seconds. You got it. And that is a lot longer than it feels like, isn't it? It is. Reese is the best at that, by the way. Is he? Yeah, that kid can wash his hands. Well, Aerie just throws up everywhere. Yeah, he's not so good at washing his hands. So is there anything else we haven't covered that you think kids should know about this virus? Hmm. I don't know, but there is something I do want to use as an example for kids to think about

because I've been thinking about this a lot with you as we're going through this. So you can probably tell, I mean, do I seem like I've been more irritable in the last month than normal? Yes, kind of. Yeah, I apologize for that, but I think part of the irritability I feel is just a frustration in what I consider to be kind of incompetence. And I think it's worth using this as a teaching point because you asked a question, how did we get here? And the underlying theme to how we got here is we didn't really do the things we needed to do

before it was too late. And so, why does that happen? I mean, is it because we don't want to? I mean, I think the point here is it's sometimes really hard to do things for which the payoff is far in the future. But that's kind of what you're explaining this morning, right? Yeah. So we're talking about the thought experiment of imagine, We were talking about the thought experiment of imagine, mom and I never once harped on what you ate, what time you went to bed,

how much you looked at your iPad, how much TV you watched, when you exercised, what sports you played, what activities you did, when you did your homework. Like imagine, you could do anything you wanted. You could watch as much flash as you wanted. Okay, that sounds kind of fun. I'm just being honest. Ice cream as you wanted. Think through how much fun you could have if you were allowed to do anything you wanted. I think it would be fun for a little bit, but then I would obviously

in the long run it would be really rough. But how do you make that trade off? You have to have discipline now so that it can benefit you later. But that's hard. It is really hard. You know it because you and me and we all struggle with this. We make these decisions today that don't always feel good. You make these sacrifices. Remember what Jocco's, what do my Joccos shirts say on them?

Before the enemy or at that one, discipline equals freedom. What does that mean? It means the more you have discipline, the more free you'll be. Eventually. Not in the moment, but eventually you will be. Right. And so when you think about why it is that you can't just eat all the ice cream in the world, even though in the moment it feels so good, it is undoubtedly more pleasurable to eat ice cream than not to eat ice cream. It is undoubtedly more pleasurable in the moment to watch as much flash as you want and do as much TikTok as you want and screw around on your computer as much as you want.

Those things feel awesome. I can't deny that. But the problem is you will pay the fiddler tomorrow. And life in some ways is a balancing act between enjoying things for the sake of enjoying them in the moment and indulging, but also being responsible enough to make sure that when something goes wrong, you're prepared. I think if you're a kid and you're listening to this, it's important to understand that the adults screwed this up. This is a great example of the adults not doing their homework, not saving their allowance, not eating their vegetables, not exercising, just completely

dropping the ball, and now we're paying the fiddler. That's a problem. I think it's a huge problem, and that's probably the thing that on a deep level has me most upset right now. It's that a whole bunch of innocent people are suffering badly because the people who were supposed to be in charge, the grownups, so to speak, couldn't make the long-term trade-off. They couldn't sacrifice in the moment. They couldn't invest the time, the money, the infrastructure in science that was necessary

to make sure that when this happened we were prepared. And so, I have to hope that this is a wake up call, and I have to hope that when this is over, maybe you guys will be the ones to tell the adults quit screwing around. So, we were talking about this this morning, and an example you used was that Reese was watching a show called Biggest Little Farm. And the people in that show, they had to grow their own food, they had to produce everything by themselves. And if they didn't wake up one morning,

even if it was raining, and they didn't go outside and guard in or help their animals, then they wouldn't have food in the long run and they would starve. So they kind of had to do what they needed to do for the future. Yeah, I'm glad you remember that example. I think that's another great one is farming. Think about if you have to go out there and plant your crops and go and tend to them and tend to your animals. And if you just for a month decide, eh, I don't feel like doing

it. I mean, I'd rather just screw around. well, you're going to starve when winter comes. Another question I had was, I was wondering, is this China's fault? It has become incredibly convenient to blame China for all of this. Consider the following scenario. You don't drive yet, but you know what it's like to be in a car with me or your mom, right? I know, it's like to be in the race car. Yep. So imagine you're driving down the freeway. And somebody changes lanes in front of you and cuts you off and they don't signal. Is that their fault or your fault? That's their fault. That's right. Now, how you respond to that is up to you.

I could honk my horn or I could just... Well, okay, yeah, that's true, but I'm saying like how you respond from a safety perspective is up to you. If you're paying attention and they cut you off, I mean that happens like 10 times a day. So, if you're doing everything right, you're probably not going to die when somebody cuts you off on a freeway. So like if you're texting and they cut you off, that could be a worse situation. Exactly. Now imagine for a moment that you're speeding, you've had a couple of drinks, you don't have your seat belt on, you're texting, and somebody cuts you off. That's not going to work out too well for you.

Now whose fault is it? That's my fault. Well, it's both of your faults at this point True because that person did cut me off, but I was kind of not doing the right thing either you were not doing your best to be ready for the situation Okay, and that's kind of how I think about this To sit here and blame China for all of this, even though that's clearly where the virus originated. And it's probably in part due to practices of food handling that we would never do in this country. And all of those things are true, but again, we have to take responsibility for all this.

So China may have cut us off in the freeway, so to speak, but we were driving too fast. We didn't have our seat belts on. We had a couple of drinks in us. We were texting, and we were looking back to check on our kids in the car seat and tell them to stop arguing with you. I mean, we bungled every aspect of this. And I just think that in the moment when you're spinning out of control, it's easy to say that guy cut me off, but at some point you got to be like,

I was doing something wrong too. Yeah, you were doing a bunch of things wrong. I want to ask you a bunch of questions now. Okay. So Olivia, we went into quarantine a week before your school closed. All right. That was about as upset as I've seen you in a long time. When you went to school on a day and I said, Hey, Olivia, this is going to be your last day at school for a while. So can you please bring all your books home. What did you think when I said that? I thought you were absolutely out of your mind because I've learned a lot about the virus since then and at that point when you said that

I didn't even realize how bad the coronavirus was. And I just started learning about it until a couple of weeks ago. And none of my friends were leaving school like I was. So I thought it would be really weird. I thought I would fall behind in schoolwork. And I thought I would be the only one. And I thought it was very odd. And I couldn't leave the house.

So I couldn't do basketball. I couldn't go to drums. I couldn't do anything. I couldn't go to drums. I couldn't do anything. I couldn't do singing. And yeah, I was really upset at first, but then the next day, a few of my friends dropped out, and then the next day, school closed. I don't think school closed till the following Monday,

but I think they told you in that. They said a few days later Monday, the last day. Yeah, so a lot of my friends started dropping out, and I was like, oh, oh, okay. Because I thought me and my brother would be the only ones that weren't going to school. And the first few days, all my friends were texting me, where are you? Why are you at school? And then kids started dropping out super fast.

And then school was closed. So what's been the hardest part of this for you? No friends. Because I'm a really social person. I usually have a million plate-aids. And so not seeing my friends has been really hard for me, probably. And also no sports because basketball season just started. And I couldn't play any games until next fall now.

What's been the hardest part about working, doing online classes and stuff? Definitely having questions because usually at school if you have questions you can ask the teacher after class But now that teachers have things to do after each class You can't really stay online because you have another class right there It's kind of hard to explain but online. It's hard to ask questions because everyone's talking over each other It's total madness like I have a headache after each class and Yeah, I do not like online school. I wish we could have school back.

That's interesting. So when you go back to school, assuming you go back to school in the fall, back into actual school, what will you appreciate now that you probably didn't appreciate in the past? Just school in general. Like me and my friends are saying

how we took school over granted, and we didn't realize how amazing it was to have school because now saying how we took school for granted and we didn't realize how amazing it was to have school because now we wish we had school. That's interesting. What has been the best and worst part of your dad not traveling for the longest time ever? Well, I have to work out a lot, so that's not fun. But I do like you being home more because you made crepes this morning, and you're just here to help more. And I think it's really fun that we have a puppy during quarantine.

So that's like really lucky that we got her a few weeks before quarantine started. And so yeah, I mean, quarantine's good and bad in some ways Yeah, what's the deal with this puppy? She pees every three seconds of her life. Yeah, is that ever gonna stop? I hope so because yeah, you could always walk around the house and if you step in a puddle, you know what it is So you don't regret that we got her. No, I don't I really like her. You don't think she's too much work? No. Ha ha ha. How many watts are you up to on your zone two workouts now? 65 to 70, but I think I can start going higher, because I'm doing longer rides now too.

Yeah, what was your last lactate level at 70 watts? It was like 2.1 or something like that? 2.3. Pretty good. Do your friends think you're a freak that your dad has lactate testing on you? They don't really know that part, but they do know that I worked out. They just don't know what lactate is, which I didn't until a couple months ago.

Well, Olivia, thank you very much for making the time. I know you're... Thank you too. You've got a lot of things going on today. I hope we answered questions that your friends would find interesting. Yeah, me too. Is there anything else that you want to know about the coronavirus or that you think your friends might want to know? I think we've covered it all, but yeah, I think that's it. All right.

Do you think there's any chance we'll get Reese on the podcast? Oh, that would definitely be crazy. I mean, I'm sure he'd love it and you guys talk about gardening and trash cans and what else does he do? Train, slagos, probably talk about that. We'll see if maybe he'll hear this one and he'll decide he wants to do one too. Yeah, speaking of which I have online drums to go to now. That's right.

Yep. Alright, thanks Olivia. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of The Drive. If you're interested in diving deeper into any topics we discuss, we've created a membership program that allows us to bring you more in-depth, exclusive content without relying on paid ads.

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