The Peter Attia Drive - #16 - Formula 1 (with Paul Conti): the best drivers, Ayrton Senna, and the cautionary tales of driven individuals

Episode Date: September 20, 2018

In this bonus episode, Peter and med school colleague (and brilliant psychiatrist) Paul Conti reminisce on their favorite moments in Formula 1 history, their deep admiration for the late Ayrton Senna, and the remarkable careers of their all-time favorite drivers. Paul also helps to illuminate the psychological components that made the luminary drivers great, and the cautionary lessons we can take from their incredible lives.   We discuss: Ayrton Senna [3:45]; How Senna’s death changed the sport [9:50]; The 80s & 90s: a remarkable era of Formula 1 [12:55]; Hypothesizing what caused Senna’s fatal crash [17:45]; Comparing Stewart and Senna, their incredible bravery, and what lessons we can learn from them [23:30]; Best documentaries on racing, and some of Senna’s best moments [31:00]; Gilles Villeneuve, Stefan Bellof, and some of the other greats [39:15]; Why Senna is widely acknowledged as the best of all time [46:15]; Great rivalries and personalities [49:30]; Rendezvous, a high-speed drive through Paris [56:50]; and More. Learn more at www.PeterAttiaMD.com Connect with Peter on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram.

Hey everyone, welcome to the Peter Atia Drive. I'm your host, Peter Atia. The drive is a result of my hunger for optimizing performance, health, longevity, critical thinking, along with a few other obsessions along the way. I've spent the last several years working with some of the most successful top performing individuals in the world, and this podcast is my attempt to synthesize what I've learned along the way to help you live a higher quality, more fulfilling life. If you enjoy this podcast, you can find more information

on today's episode and other topics at peteratiamd.com. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUT Welcome to the bonus episode of the drive. My guest for this episode is my dear friend, Dr. Paul Conti, who is not only the most brilliant psychiatrist I've ever met, but also one of the most amazing Formula One fans. Paul and I on this relatively short episode, at least short for the metrics of this podcast, we just go on and talk about all of our favorite things in Formula One. but primarily we talk about the history of Formula One and who are the drivers that we've loved the most. And of course, one of the things that we discuss in this podcast is that Paul and I have a number of things in common, not the least of which is our birthday, but our love for IR-10CENNA.

And so we talk at length about CENNA, and again, I think some of you who might be thinking, well, I'm not really that interested in Formula One or driving, I still think you'll find a lot interesting because one of the things that Paul does in this episode is he ties into this discussion of the great Formula One drivers, a lot of the psychological component of what made them great and what draws us to them. I will say that, well, as I've talked about before,

my son, one of my sons named after I got to the center. And I remember when I suggested to my wife that we should name him, name our son, after her first thought was who, and then her second thought was what? But over about six months of this pregnancy, as she got to learn more and more about Sennas. She was kind enough to humor me as I exposed her to Sennas and his greatness. She not only came around, but really not only fell in love with the name, but fell in love with the idea of Sennas and the man that he was. So not that we have any expectation that our son will go on to be a race car driver, but needless to say, little Ayartun is a special little guy and he's named after someone that I've looked up to and hold in a very high regard.

And so I think in this episode we get into some of why that's the case and also some of the other just luminaries of this sport. So you won't probably learn more about the relevance of Formula One in a shorter period of time than you will in this podcast. And again, even if you're not interested in driving, I really encourage you to listen to this because it will likely spark some interest. And I think the

show notes have some amazing links to things that if anybody gets an itch scratched by this, they're going to dig a little bit further. So with that, welcome to the first, what I would call bonus episode of the drive where Paul Conti and I spend a little bit of time going deep on our favorite topic outside of living better and living longer. So Paul, we have a lot of things in common, not the least of which is our birthday. Yes. Here are the same birthday, which is great because you're one of the few people whose birthdays I remember.

I just, I'm like, a moron when it comes to birthdays. I have an encyclopedic memory of many things except for birthdays. But of course, every time I wake up, usually you're calling me to wish me a happy birthday, which is reminding me that it's my birthday. I usually wake up to a text from you. The other thing we have in common is a, I I think what can only be described as an obsession with arguably though I would say it's not arguably definitively the greatest driver in the history of driving. I remember it was one of the first things we bonded over at the medical school because at that point it had only

been three years since Senna's death and for those of us who cherished him it's a day that all of us remember you you know, Sunday, May 1st, 1994, what is it about Santa that you loved so much? I'll try not to be long-winded, but to answer both facets of that. On the one hand, I'm not sure that I'm aware of anyone, certainly not in a way that I observed and experienced with interest as it unfolded, right? Who has been more single-minded about achievement? You know, this is a person who did absolutely everything that was required for not just the highest level of achievement, but for moving that bar of what the highest level of achievement means. And for people who don't follow like what Formula One was then,

is this is not like somebody sitting in a car and just driving it around, right? The physical stamina, you know, the training, the ability to control oneself physically and mentally, right? The ability to hone reflexes and to multitask in ways that push executive function, push mind and body to the very limits. I've never seen anyone do that. And that's complemented by his incredibly intense passion. I mean, this is someone who, yes, was very religious, but that religiosity, I believe, was expressed in passion for people who were suffering in his own country, right?

He was Brazilian and, you know, he was born wealthy, born privileged, yet had such a sense for the struggle of people who were up against things that he wasn't up against. And I believe that that unity with people who didn't have, you know, even one billionth of the things that he had into money, fame, adulation. But I don't believe that he felt any different. I believe he felt fortunate and he felt a sense of almost messionic drive to be the best and make things better for people.

And that leads to the second facet, which is ultimately that was his undoing. He died in the context of that drive, right? Of that inability to step back from the brink even a little bit. So I think that he's a model for the best in us and also that we can have so many good qualities and ultimately be the architects of our own downfall by not being able to step back and realize our own

humanity. Like he didn't think he was better than anyone else, but there was another level in which I think he believed because of it was so incumbent upon him to make things better for everyone else that he had to be superhuman, right? I mean, it's a way of not feeling better than everyone else in an arrogant way, but feeling better in a way that isolates us and means that there's always more to do and we never get to rest. Right, there was more responsibility on... He felt... I get the sense, of course,

never having never met him, but just having read everything that one could read about him and watching every video and documentary, he felt the weight of a nation on his shoulders. Yeah, exactly, yes. And if you feel the weight of a nation on your shoulders and you know, you don't realize that that just has to be a shared responsibility, but you take that all on yourself,

then you can inadvertently be the architect of, and this is of your own demise. I don't think many people realized until after his death, how much he gave back to Brazil. He kept a lot of that secret. Yeah. He had a lot of education for underprivileged children in the inland part of Brazil.

I mean, so, so, I mean, it's just one example of so much of what he did was so humble, you know, and I was very interesting, you know, Sid Watkins, right, who was the great surgeon, right, who also was by the greatest understanding of the personalities of these incredibly driven people, you know, just described a serene humility in him that this was someone who lived an unobtrusive life when left his own devices to live it. And he put them on camera.

He could say, okay, look, his lifestyles are the rich and famous. That's not who he was inside. And it's fascinating to know that. That emits that peace and tranquility was such a desperation to do things that were super human. And there's a lesson in that, right? A lesson that goes back to mythology, right, of flying too close to the sun, right? And it is a lesson for people who, I think, have great abilities and great perseverance and great

ability to torment themselves in order to continue to persevere that if we don't recognize our limits, we want great risk of not achieving our goals. And in Air Tonsana, who lived to be 90, could have done what? How much for Brazil? How much for the world? So I see him as really amongst the greatest of us for his capability, his drive, his compassion, his just living in shared humanity. But I also see him as emblematic of the foibles that are not just foibles, that the dangers that we can represent to ourselves

and the need for not just humility about ourselves, but also for compassion about ourselves and like look, there's a limit and we gotta take care of ourselves if we're gonna keep going for ourselves and for whatever it is that we care about. Virtually every Formula One driver today, so you look at the heroes of today, Louis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel, Ricardo, all these guys.

If asked, almost without exception to a man, they'll all say the same thing, that Senna's death has been the single most important change in Formula One. It was the turning point in the safety of that sport. Do you remember what they found in his car when he died at Emola? Do you remember with a flag? What he had with it? They found that the Austrian flag,

which is unusual. Why would a Brazilian have been carrying the Austrian flag on the day he died? A person who's like every cell was about Brazil had an Austrian flag. And of course, we know that the day before that Roland Ratsenberger was Austrian had died and formed in the one car. And how shocking and distressing that was to Ertán Sáná.

And his drive to win that race. Why? I mean everything he wanted to win was to be the best and to glorify Brazil, right? Here it was about, I think, such an intense compassion for this person's loss of life, that I think it blinded him to the limits, to even his own limits. I mean, even, you know, he had limits, right? We all have limits, and I think it blinded him to those limits. And I think subsequently, it's just my opinion,

it's blinded for me, Leone, to, in a sense, the need for some element of danger to allow people to distinguish themselves. And you know, that might sound like an odd thing to say is coming from the perspective of preserving life, right? But I think that, you know, there were times when that sport was way too dangerous and we just way too many people lost their lives. But to go so far to uniformitize it and to try

and eliminate danger, some of what has been eliminated was, you know, the limits of human ambition and human bravery that I think were an important part of distinguishing people who really were heroes. And in part they were heroes because they were taking some risks. And again, I'm not a fan of let's bring back, you know, 25 or 30% of Formula One drivers are dying behind the wheel. I mean, obviously that is not okay. But there's been such a push in the other direction. And I think that there was just really a terror in the sport. It was a terror that then sought to eliminate, you know, the opportunity to push oneself too far.

But I think in doing so, there's an arena of human endeavor that can be tremendously inspiring that I think was, I think was changed too much. And I think people don't have the opportunity to be our tonne-senna. And I think in some ways, in order to have the opportunity to be him, there has to be the opportunity to take the risks that he took. And hopefully to learn from his example and take them in a way that results in excellence and survival.

But I think the sport in many ways is taking away that ability. And I think part of why people harken back to that is it was a turning point that really changed the sport I think in and went too many ways. Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know. That era just seems remarkable. I mean, when you think about the rivalries that existed, you know, Mansoul and PK and Post and Sennah, it was, I don't know, it's hard to say. I mean, like I could talk about Formula One forever.

I know you and I, I think you and I actually have. We actually have done this. But, but there really is something about the, sort of, the mid 80s to, to mid 90s that was kind of a remarkable year. I mean, I, again, not that it's about the championships because many people will still look at Jill Villeneuve having never won a championship as one of the greatest drivers ever.

And we should, we could park that for a moment on the side. But I really do, so first of all, even though Senna won only, quote unquote, three championships in my mind, he won four. So the disqualification in the Japanese Grand Prix, I look at that disqualification, the Japanese Grand Prix, I look at that disqualification the same way I look at the Hegler Leonard fight, which is just they just they made a bad call. There is no way he should have been disqualified in that. And so he

died as a four time champion. But if you do the math on it, you realize that the season he died, which was the third race of the 1994 season, even though the Williams car was a fraction of what it was the year before, what most people don't realize is Hill went on his teammate, Damon Hill, went on to finish second to Schumacher that season by a point, basically, came down to the last race, which tells you that a lot of the kinks that we're going on in the Williams car of that year. We're getting worked out. Yeah. In other words, had Sennon not died, I'm positive he would have been the 1994 World Champion, and I suspect he would have been the World Champion all the way till about 97. Because you did, you ultimately had

Ville-Nav, Jacques Ville-Nav won in 97, Damon Hill won in what what 96 all in the Williams car. Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is it. So people talk about well, okay, you know, many years later Schumacher went on to win so many championships. And that's that's impressive. I think most people still consider center the greatest driver of all time, but you know, Senate could have won seven world championships in an era when that was unheard of. Right. You have to look at any achievement by era, right? You think about Fonjiro won five world championships in a time when most people didn't survive five seasons.

That's right. So how can you compare that to a time when safety was at such a height in the Ferrari, it was a dominant car? I mean, you know, you can't, there's a comparison then to the truly is apples and oranges, and that era of mid 80s to mid 90s, you know, was an era of incredibly fast machines, and machines that weren't always on parity,

but machines that were on parity enough that the driver could make the difference, and you really saw what I think of as titanic struggles between exceptional personality. So the same thing that drew me to the interest in, the people behind the Second World War. To an interest in people who are struggling, whether it's with glory or with no one watching, right?

It is the same thing that to me was the attraction of Formula One, that you know, you know, you're Titanic personalities of Prost, Mansell, Senna. And I think that, you know, it's interesting that Damon Hill won the championship that year. And again, I think that the Vastardroid people would say he was not the caliber of driver of Mansell Prost or Senna. But look at the caliber of human being. I mean, here's a person who grew up with this incredibly dashing, debonair father, right? And, you know, you see pictures around the paddock as an infant.

Right. And when you see pictures, you know, you see Damon Hill wasn't cut in the mold of his father, right? He's probably cut more in the mold of his mother. You know, you see these pictures of him kind of standing close to his mother looking in awe at his father. You who just looked like a movie star. Right. I mean, right. So I said the handlebar moustache and his eroar and just he was such a, you know, a model of what it meant to be

a man in that era, right? And despite not naturally having those characteristics, I think physically or personality wise, Damon Hill won the World Championship anyway. And he went back in that Williams after Senate was killed. I think that Damon Hill's story is a much quieter story, but I think it's a tremendous story of being an exceptional human. And I think that's what appeals to people who really love that era of the sport is. I mean, you and I love who we're infinitely infatuated by exceptional people. We want to understand them, we want to learn from them. In some ways, we want to venerate them. And I think there's something that's really, there's something that's good about

that. But, you know, it kind of, maybe charting all this together, you know, there's, there's also something in us that I think at times wants to idealize them and then therefore In a sense idealize what we're doing, you know, and the truth is that you know send his death was avoidable And I don't mean it was avoidable because they could have made that track dumbed down It was avoidable if you're driven less fast, I think you know I don't remember you and I've really ever talked about this in great detail I mean I have a pretty strong point of view on why he died I'd be curious to know yours. So I think the official answer that came out of the trial was that basically the crash on the first lap that led to the safety car coming out allowed the tires to

cool and he basically lost traction. Now, there are a couple of really interesting videos on YouTube that have tried to dissect this in 10 different ways, but I got to tell you the theory that I find most compelling. I actually think the steering column broke before he went off the road. Okay. So I actually think, because as you know, Santa modified the steering column in his car. So he had like an extra six inches of a steering column in there, and it was well, so that he had a separate point of weakness in his steering column. And I actually think it broke. And I say that because when you look at the film of the onboard of him going off just before it cuts out, you can see him violently

turning the wheel with no effect. But this is before the impact. So there's no dispute that the steering column broke. That's a given. The question is that it break before or after the collision. And if it broke before the collision, it's hard to argue that that's not the single most important part of why he crashed. What's your thought? Again, what do I know? I don't know. We're two not go ahead.

We're fans. We're not go ahead. Fans offering our amateur opinion. But my read of that is different, right? And again, who knows? But think about the Williams before that year, the active suspension. Gently regarded as the single most technologically advanced Formula 1 car in the history of the sport,

including up until this day, even though that was 25 years ago. You could do one little thing to put it a tiny bit off balance in the car adjusts. I mean, that car was like science fiction in terms of its sophistication and sure all that the teams were trying to do that, but Williams had. Williams took us to another place. So then, okay, what happens is they say, like, take all that stuff away. And I think through no fault of the Williams or the team, that car was a beast without that, right?

It was a beast built. Right. So it was undrivable. And I think, and some of the things, you know, that Damon Hill said about driving, were really scary. Like, that car was on a knife edge, and like, it was a terrifying car to drive.

Yeah, Senna did not finish the first two races of the 94 season, even though he was leading both, because he just lost control of the car. And when you watch those spin outs, you're like, that's the type of spin out I would do in a car. Like, that's not something that the world's best driver would do. Right.

Which I think means that like most people would say, okay, look, if I'm going to drive this car, because again, we're talking about a level of talent and bravery that I cannot imagine, right? That, okay, they're going to drive it and they're going to try and drive it fast. But that's a different thing than driving it on the absolute edge. Aville Neufstile was, how do you know where the limit is? You go over it, you fly off the track and then you figure that out. That was not the way to drive that car and survive.

And I think that he knew that. But I think you forgot that when Ratson Burger died. And I think that that was the cause of the... So you think he went around that corner just a little too quickly? I do. Given the tire... Basically given the tire temperature, is that what you think it came down to it?

Well, I think given all the complex factors, including tire temperature, all the things that it happened, I think you went too fast. And I think that there was sort of the hubris of brilliance and the need to make something right, that to win that race, I mean, imagine, Ertán Senna had he won that race, and then he drives around the track with an Austrian flag. I mean, I am not sure that a human being can be glorified more.

I mean, you know, think about at that point, you know, I mean, Senna had a superhuman status. I mean, there were people in lots of places, not just in Brazil that actually felt like maybe he's immortal. If the Brazilians loved him the most, you could, I think you'd have to make the case that the Jeffries loved him the second most, right? Absolutely. He was a God in Japan.

Absolutely. I mean, you see those pictures and he's like getting off a plane, people are like fainting and, you know, things that, okay, we like saw with the Beatles, but, you know, but there's a lot of like hysteria and, you know, around I'm not trying to say anything negative about people feigning when the Beatles got off the plane. But this was an adulation of a single human being for his tenacity, his ability to say,

there's never enough that's been put into succeeding. So imagine him and the glory that he would have brought. Now again, he could say, well, what's the glory? I mean, this volume rats are probably going to need the glory, right? But it is meaningful. I mean, I think it would have been meaningful in a way of that no one would have ever forgotten, and that would have meant something to his family and his friends,

and would have meant something forever. I mean, that could have been potentially one of the most memorable moments, if not the most memorable moment in the history of the sport. And I think he was so driven to do that that he attempted to do something that was superhuman. And I think that cost him his life. You know, there's so many things about that day that just blow my mind. Obviously, there are interviews of him on that day that he died in the paddock and he was not himself.

And Sid Watkins has said that right. Sid Watkins has said that right. He even tried to talk him into retiring. the paddock and he was not himself. And Sid Watkins has said that right. Sid Watkins has said that right. Sid Watkins has said that right. Sid Watkins has said that right. Sid Watkins has said that right. Sid Watkins has said that right. Sid Watkins has said that right. Watkins has said that right.

Watkins has said that right. Watkins has said that right. Watkins has said that right. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring.

He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. He even tried to talk him into retiring. is gonna take one more chance, but he's gonna take a real chance. Right, right, exactly. And I think, and I think that's what frighten him

is he realized, like, this man is heading towards death. You know, it's interesting when you think about Jackie Stewart's last race was a non-race. He didn't race his last race because his teammate, what was he, was he, was his teammate? Oh, yeah, sorry, sit there. Yeah, his teammate died in qualifying for that race. What was it? Was it Watkins? Which was at Watkins, yeah, Watkins, Lynn. I mean, I love watching interviews of

Jackie Stewart talking about that. And he was just like, I was enough. That was it. It was over. Yep. And again, I don't know. I would not give anything to sit down and ask the question of Jackie Stewart, right? But you know, here's a man who started driving when, I mean, if I'm remembering correctly, I think there was a 30% survival rate, like a 70% death rate, right? When he started driving cars and he was so brave, like he worked to make safety better, but my God, who would it when seven out of 10 people aren't surviving? So he was incredibly brave, and I don't think that changed.

I don't think his bravery changed. I think he had a sense of being paternal to say there. Say there was younger, Jackie Stewart was nurturing him, and I think his center... Jackie Stewart loved, I mean, he loved... He wanted to give him every piece of knowledge he had, is sort of the impression I get. Yeah, and I think, you know,

there's a different story there too, right? Which is like, how can we parse out the bravery of Jackie Stewart versus Ertán Séné? I mean, comrade's stratosphere. And one of them was a death, rats and burgers death, I think, told Séné a lesson that I believe is born of trauma. I mean, I think that, think about the drive in Santa and it was a drive. There had to be something in him of fighting some sense of not being good enough that he had to save his country, save the world. And I think that that had fatal consequences as opposed to Jackie Stewart. I think he's a more balanced human being, right, who recognize in the death of Save Air, like it's time for me to stop. And I think the different lessons from that death

are indicative of, I think the different character structures of those two men. And again, I have no basis for saying that other than being a fan of the sport and reading things and trying to thinking about it. And I mean, there was clearly something, it was a deep men inside of center, right? I mean, I just don't think people flog themselves like that.

You know, people don't just run in the heat with their uniform in helmet on, you know, until they like fall over and then someone like, okay, at that moment, you can't go any further so I'm pushing a car and you go back and get rehydrated. I mean, like, you know, there was a way in which there was something messianic in him.

And I'm not sure that there can be messianic things. Do you remember the Brazilian Grand Prix that he won in, was it 93 when his... He had the steering. No, he got stuck in basically. Oh, the gear, that's right. What year was that? The, I don't remember if, I don't remember,

I don't remember what year it was, but it was the gear, he was stuck in a six-year. He was stuck in a six-year. It was a gear that I remember thinking, I was just thinking about this the other day. I was like literally driving around the other day and I thought, what would I do Stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C-stuck in a C- some high gear. Right, and I think whether it was that that made the car harder to drive, but like, you know, he had muscle cramping, right? From head to toe, and I think part of it was the heat and the extra difficulty of, you know,

of yanking that car around the track, right? It made it so difficult to drive it. I'm sure he understood like, how do you keep the revs up? How do you actually do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right in a way that like, and you or I would get passed by bicycles, right? But he's still in love.

No, I would have just all, I mean, I just, I wouldn't have been driving. And I think the drive, I mean, in my view of human performance in a way that we can witness, right? Human tenacity in a way that we can witness. They had to pull him out of the car. Yeah, nice.

When you see footage of that film, you've never seen him in that kind of pain. He couldn't hold up the trophy of the car. Yeah, when you see footage of that film, you've never seen him in that kind of pain. He couldn't hold up the trophy at the end, do you remember? Yeah. Yeah. This is in front of Brazil. Right. And he said something that I forget his mother and father about, like, not to touch him.

That's right. His father was trying to hug him after the race. He said, no, don't touch me. Don't touch me. Pain. And you know, that to me is the kind of bravery that we at times don't get to witness, right? It's a kind of bravery that's like legendary in wartime, right?

It's a kind of bravery that I think we respect so infinitely. And I don't think we get to see it. You know, I mean, I've talked and this is not the time to go into it, but you know, if an uncle of mine who was a war hero, right, who, you know, when they were shooting at him, jumped out and went and got the guy who'd been shot, right? And was decorated and like did things that, to me, are like, unimaginable, like, how do you do that?

And I don't think that we know what to make of that. Like, we've been fortunate not to be in those situations, right? So we don't know, like, what would I do? Could I do that? Would I do that? And we don't have a metric for that in a way that we can understand because we know we're not we don't understand like how it's in a trench and you're being shot at and somebody's been shot and they're screaming and like, you know, that's I think that's

unfathomable, but I think things like Senna's achievement in Brazil and Senna's drive like internal drive in San Marino, gives us some insight into what, you know, the human tenacity, incredible, unimaginable pressures. And I think that there are ways in which it resonates with us because we get to witness that in a way that otherwise it's inaccessible to us. And we get to see it not just in its glory, but also in its fear and its terror and you know in the reality of it right that you know for every person who jumps out of a

trench and saves somebody and gets a medal you know how many people are there jump out of a trench and are dead. So I think witnessing that provides a metric in some ways of what human beings can do and I think it's great for us to appreciate and to even venerate that. But I think the danger isn't identifying with it too much because I think it's one thing to do that in more time. And maybe people do that who don't have trauma as a motorist, different, right?

But I think doing the things that Senna did, and ultimately the things that led to his death, I see that in rooting in some team and something traumatic. And again, I absolutely don't know what that is, but something inside of him that couldn't be good enough through what he had achieved, couldn't be good enough by celebrating Roland Ratzemberger even if he finished second or third. There was a drive in him that went against Ratson Alley and went against survival instincts. And I think that there's, you know, part of the reason I,

you know, I'm so interested in him is it's, there's a lot of warnings in there to us too. And again, not to sound like a broken record, but I think so much of that comes down to trauma. And my guess is that shirt, traumatic things happen to people, but you look at the things, you know, Jackie Stewart was caught in a car, you know, stuck and there's gasoline and it could blow, but anytime, I mean, like that man went through traumatic things,

but I think ultimately, you know, his decisions don't seem to me to be made through the lens of something traumatic. And I think Senna's due. And again, that may be me trying to over-apply my heuristic, right? But that's, you know, for what it's again, that may be me trying to over-apply my heuristic, but that's for what it's worth, that's how I see it. You know, hopefully there's someone still listening to this who wasn't necessarily interested in racing,

but who will become, you know, I feel like there's so many things I want to link to. I mean, for me, the two best, there's like a hundred videos and documentaries on Formula One that I love, but the two that stand out the most to me are first and foremost, Senna. Yeah, absolutely.

And the second is one, the number one, which is actually the very first time I saw that was with you. Yeah, you know what I watched it together, like five or six years ago. It was late on a Saturday night, and I don't know what made us decide, like we're gonna stay up late in the watch this,

but oh my God. You know what's interesting? I don't remember if they show it in either of those documentaries they certainly don't show it in one and I don't even know if it comes up in center but do they show the Donington first lap and I think so in the in the rain at Donington yeah I mean it's generally regarded as one of the greatest laps and I can't remember I mean we've looked at it so much that I can't remember like what is it in what is in it in either way we'll link to it here So that people can see it, but it is you know It's funny because when I first started caring about racing. I had never raised myself So it's a totally different animal once you've actually been in one of these cars and it complete like my appreciation for

Senna For anyone who does this as a profession is For anyone who does this as a profession is two to three log rhythmic orders of magnitude higher. I simply can't understand how they do it. And so especially to look at something like Donington where you realize like he passed what? He passed three guys in one lap of a rainy rack. And it's not three dudes.

It's like, you know, LA in post, it's like, it's amazing dudes, right? You get the best drivers on earth and three of the best cars on earth under conditions of which it appears to be impossible to pass someone. And you somehow managed to pass them all from number four position.

It's, I just, again, I can watch that lap a hundred times and all I want to do is say, you couldn't make this up. If this were in a movie, you would say, that's silly, we don't do that in movies. At least draw this out over 10 laps to have some suspense. You don't get to do it. Keep it realistic. Yeah, keep it realistic. This is so stupid.

The other thing that fits that description is his qualifying lap at Monaco. Was it in 89 or 88? I want to say 88 about that. Yeah, because it would have been in the MP44, which would have been 88. I would have been 84, I think, the MP44. No, MP44 was 88. Was it, okay, okay. So then it would be 88.

So what's a normal gap in between the first second guy and qualifying at a course the size of Monaco, like a tenth of a second, you know, five, one hundredths of a second to a tenth of a second, right? Do you remember how much he was ahead of PROST that year in qualifying? He's amazing. It's like, it's made his little bit minutes. It's about a second and a half. Like an impossible amount of time.

And to someone who'd look anyone who's not impressed with that, it's already long stopped listening to us. That's right, that's right. Anybody who's still listening to this, we don't have to explain why it's so significant. So a second and a half May is we'll be an hour. I mean, it's an impossible gap. And the fact that the gap was against

post driving the same car. Right. And one of my favorite videos of that, because you know what's tragic? I mean, they're real tragedies. This is like little T-Tragic, not big T-Tragic. There is no on-board film of that lap. Is that right? So the on-board film we will often see,

is a reality. The on-board film we see of him is in that race, but it's not that. It's not that. That lap. To my knowledge, and I hope somebody can prove this wrong. And if you can, please tell us. There's a case at Topo Chico with your name on it I do not believe there is any onboard film from the qualifying lap in 88 Monaco in the MP44 where he goes a set one like something like 1.52 seconds faster

I didn't realize that I thought some of the video that will watch of likena's greatest lap. And Monica was that lap. So I think they're right. I think they're video from the race or other qualifying. I'm not from that lap. But what there is a video of is pro's face in the paddock as he sees the times. This shit. And it's just a look of, are you freaking hitting me? This guy is not for real. Right.

I mean, there's a man who, I think, one of the greatest drivers in history who has to have in his head like, okay, like, Senna is great, but if I've gone this fast, what's the fastest he could go? Right. A tenth of a second more.

Maybe at his best, you know, 5100. I mean, how could it, to see that, you know, it's just proof of concept of the, the pretter natural ability of Eriton Sennhe and I think, you know, having exceptional ability at anything is a wonderful thing, but it also can be a dangerous thing. And having preter natural ability

is an extremely wonderful thing and also an extremely dangerous thing. There's a video we'll try to link to. I remember sending it to you when it came out. I described it as the finest McLaren propaganda And McLaren has the best propaganda I'm a sucker for a problem If I could have afforded a P1 I would have bought one the day that Nuremberg ring came out

I was like, I gotta have one But they have a video of that lap, which of course doesn't show any footage of the lap. Yeah. But in it, Senna says that may have been the peak of his career, that moment. He would go on, he, in fact, he hadn't even won a world championship yet. He won his first championship in 88.

I think, yeah, I think the MP44 was his first championship car. I think he won, I'd have to go. Yeah. I think he won 88, 90 and 91. But anyway, to think that he believes that he was at his best, even before he'd won his first championship, because of that margin. It's amazing, right? It's hubris, it's brilliance. It's putting together everything that's on the absolute knife edge and getting it right amazing. Yeah, I remember they explain this to us You know in racing school, which was the difference between you and

them is You will very occasionally be able to take a car to its limit very occasionally and then most of the time you'll go too far and you'll lose control of the car. The best in the world are always at the limit without going over it. It's amazing. And so even my coach, who's a professional driver, to this day when I sit in a car with him and we're trying to go over something so like we'll get in the car together and I'll be in

the passenger seat, he'll be in the driver's seat and we'll communicate through the radio because of course it's too loud to talk. And he'll take me through lap. So we right button willows sort of our favorite place because it's relatively close in Southern California. There are areas there like in particular, I don't know if you know that track well, but the bus stop which is a part of that track. I don't know. To this day, I still get kind of nervous how fast he's going. Amazing. I'm like, how is he able to control this? And you're really good at this and really experienced and you know the car and it even it's amazing you to be a car. I wouldn't say I'm really good. I mean, but the point is I'm not a normal like I'm not just a lay person who's never been in

or driven a race car. But yeah, it just humbles me. It is amazing. I think we celebrate and venerate exceptional talent. And I think that's wonderful, right? But I also, I think we need to be careful about the lessons of it too. That this is like one is just exciting. It can be we're talking about human beings at the limit. And it's exceptional, and it's inspiring, and it's risky.

And it really tells us something. it tells us something about human beings that we, in some ways, we want to push ourselves. We want to admire people who push to the limit. So while we're on the topic of racing, there's another driver who I know a lot less about than you, but I just remember from some of our, put it this way, I remember when you figured out that I was Canadian, which was kind of a funny concept. It's like this guy's from Canada. What the hell is that?

Which of course, Americans are secretly so jealous of Canada because you've got your shit together up there that we like make fun because you've got your shit together up there that we like make fun of you to kind of cover that up. So I think that comes from insecurity too to be honest. But the thing that you loved most about the fact that I was Canadian was Jill Vilnev. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you might be the greatest Vilnev fan ever.

What is it about Vilnev that you loved so much? I think a part of it is like I was like, was a kid right so when I first was like learning about him you know there's I was so impressionable and so impressed by the glory of utter mastery of something that was really venerated on a worldwide scale. So the fact that like there was no one with as much natural talent. I mean, one might argue, even like Stefan Belov, Fahndio Clark, I mean, Senna, you have to look, there's only a couple people you can even talk about in the same breath in terms of natural talent. And, you know, in retrospect, I think just the utter audacity of him, you know, I mean, this is like I started off as like a snowmobile racer, right?

He could back and was so Shockingly good that what a few years later he's driving in Formula One for Ferrari I mean like this is during an era when Ferrari was not Adominant car. No, I mean he won in a car that I think he himself described as a truck, but he was so Shockingly talented and in retrospect, I think it's interesting because again, I try and I Think if we're gonna if we're going to respect and to some degree venerate humans who have great and at times Predernatural talent and are willing to take risks. Then we also have to acknowledge that sometimes the outcome of that is something that isn't

glorious, right? That is just simply tragic. And I think, you know, Senna's death, I think, was so tragic because I think that's a person who did understand the risks. I think in many ways, Vilniu and I think BELOF, you know, in what, how many years, almost 35 years or so, that I've been really following closely,

high level motorsports, or two people who I, I mean, I'm not so sure that there was any fear in them. And that's extremely dangerous. And I think they were better naturally. Do you know up until, sorry, interrupt, but do you realize that Bell Ops in November, ring record was only broken a week ago?

I didn't know that it was broken a week ago. Yeah, I didn't. And again, that's record that stood for like 35 years or something. And we're talking apples and oranges, I mean, in a car 35 years ago, right? I mean, again, okay, the record was broken, but in some ways you have to look and say, like, that record from an era for his drive on Nuremberg was still the most ridiculous thing ever.

Right, right. It's so the old Nuremberg ring, right, did. You know, the most daunting circuit in history. What did Jack Eastward call it, the green hell? The green hell, I think, is, yeah. And, you know, like, I mean, there were things that Bell often, Villeneuve did that, I mean, you truly had to, like, not have anywhere in the equation, your survival,

which is, you know, part of the reason neither of them survived. And again, I think it's just fascinating, the innate skill and just the utterly undaunted bravery. Was Enzo alive when Wilner died, right? I mean, he was, what did he say? He once said something about Wilner that was kind of remarkable.

So, you know, for Enzo, for Ari had been a driver, right? And it was in Tazio Nuvolari, right? That he felt like in Nuvolari, it was hard to again compare. I mean, it was so, so long ago, but when people really talk about the greatest people that have ever, the greatest talents of ever drive, a car of Nouveau-Larry's on everybody's list.

And in Nouveau-Larry, this like small person, right, who didn't look like, you know, he would be the greatest driver, but who was unparalleled in his era, that Ferrari saw like this is the pinnacle of greatness. And it led him to realize, like, he was a very good driver. But like, when you see new Valar, you kind of realize, okay, maybe I should stop driving. It's our building cars.

And he really worshiped new Valar. And he said something like, who would have imagined, like I never thought that I would see anyone, like, you know, new Valar, he died. How many decades ago that there's no one else like him and to see define the spirit of Nouveau-Larry again in this like diminutive, elf like French Canadian. I mean, I think like was unimaginable to Enzo Ferrari

who, who therefore felt so passionate about Villeneuve because he saw in him the ultimate of talent and fearlessness and the ultimate in making a cardew seemingly impossible things, which is what Nouveau-Larry was known for and what Villeneuve was known for. Villeneuve died in 82, correct? 1982, yeah, it was older Belgium. It's a bit of a tragic story as well, not unlike Senna's death in which you

think this could have been preventable. What were the circumstances of his death? It involved the teammate, didn't it? Yeah, his teammate was Pionni who I had a very, very different personality type. Again, I don't want to be careful not to try and go diagnosed in people that I that I've never met or treated, but this was a person for whom ego in the very traditional sense was on the leading edge. Really the opposite of Vilnov who people describe is like devoid of guile. Like he just didn't get why.

And you would never like double cross someone to do something unsavory, right? I mean, you just go out and like you went on the track. And you know, Pirani had done things at Imola, actually the previous race. That were deceitful. I mean, you do the team orders, whoever was ahead, like that's that at a certain point in the race. And then Pyrenee passed, they'll leave when Villeneuve wasn't, you know, didn't think

that that could happen. This team made with pass. Right. Because, because never in a million years would Villeneuve just like, what I'm going to do. Just obeyed. Yeah. And to win in a way that would then be hollow, right? Like you're in front at the time that the team has decided is when somebody wins, now you slow down and I pass you.

I was like, what's the glory in that? And I believe that he had thought that like, there must have been some mistake and he like repasted Pyrrheny, right? And then slow down again, not even thinking then, maybe he did this on purpose. And I think Pyrrhen he passed him a second time. You know, when Vilnius drive, then,

was such a drive to win that at the time he was killed, I mean, it was almost like a 50-50, which direction is this car going to go? Like, you slow down so you don't take that risk that you make the wrong choice and there's disaster. And I think the absence of fear, the anger of having been deceived, in many ways, the naivete really led to his

death. Although by the same token, I don't think there was anyone driving with Phil Noove who thought that he was going to retire. I don't think anyone thought that. It's like no one thought that of Belfast. No one thought that of Novelari. If I understand it, remember Krakow died of tuberculosis in all day, right? So that doesn't mean that they were faded, you know, to die in a car. But I think that the expectation was that there was, you know, really no concept of self-preservation. You're going back to Senna. One of the things that amazes me is the idea that there aren't that many examples of athletes in other sports where the greatest of the generation before and the greatest of

the generation after, still without hesitation, acknowledge him as the greatest. And so there's Fangeo, Juan Manuel Fangeo, who again would certainly be on anybody's short list of greatest drivers of all time, you know, regarded Sennah as the greatest. And if you ask Lewis Hamilton, who is arguably today's greatest driver, who is the greatest without hesitation, Ayurth and Senna. Right. That's amazing. You asked the drivers of Senna's era who was the greatest.

Iarth and Senna. Right. I mean, I remember the interviews of Fonjo's an old man talking about Senna Senna. And he felt like this was the passing of the torch. This is the one who is better than me. I can remember he would say over at Lomé Hor, right? He would say like, the best. And this is clearly the best.

And you would see like his Fangeo, you know, as an old man, I'm so deity at that point, right? It was a beautiful picture of Fangeo standing on the podium with Senna holding him, embracing him like a child. You know, the one I'm, I mean, has his hands on his cheeks in the most loving way. It's such a, and again, looks like it's his father

or his grandfather. Yeah, it's this, when you think about validation of someone, right? And, and I think that's because, you know, me look, there's so many reasons for it, right? But because if you look at all around, right? I mean, again, we could split hair as about bravery, talent, and we can look at people like, Vilnov and Belov and Fangeo and Clark and, you know,

and Prost, right? And Mansell and, and, and Schum you know and prost right and manzole and and and Schumacher and you can look at all these people and you know there's so many different aspects of ability that you can you know how do you really judge one versus another without splitting hairs but but when you take it all together there is a picture that emerges which which denotes Sennah as the best right when you combine talent, dedication, you know, understanding of the nuance,

is wanting to understand why the Japanese engineers, the Honda engineers loved him, because he wanted to understand every single thing about that car and the engine that was propelling it. He was the ultimate because there was nothing that was anything less than 100% intensely relevant Every nuance of the course every nuance of the car every nuance of the engine every nuance of the competition They're physical prowess their experience their psychological weaknesses, right?

I mean this is a person who approached Formula 1 like you or I mode approach like Saving our family, right? I mean, there's like no nuance that isn't 100% imperatively relevant and I think to be that way and to maintain that really marked him like it you know it elevated the talent the bravery to elevate it everything to the to the really optimal level, which is why I think you know he you know, this reason why the generations all say that he's the greatest. And I think it's, it's for good reason. And again, I keep coming back to the idea that part of being the greatest for him was being

messianic. And if you're going to be messianic, there's a risk that you won't survive it. I remember Prost would say this in interviews. He, you know, because it's an interesting Prost and Sena had a completely tumultuous hostile relationship until the day that he died. Yeah. It's very interesting. I don't remember again which interview I've seen it in. I might be in one of these documentaries, but Prost tells the story of how, because he had retired in 93 after winning in the Williams, I guess that year would have been the 15 right the a 15 and now he's a

Commentator so Emola that day the day that Senna died Senna said on the radio something to the effect of I want to welcome my great and wonderful friend Elaine Prost it's so wonderful to have you on the radio or something to that effect and And pros commented how he was like so moved by that. You know, they had had such a bitter rivalry. And here was Senate paying him this wonderful, gracious, kind compliment. And of course, several weeks later, you know, or several, probably a week later, a pro's is one of his Paul bearers. But pros had said many times during interviews. He's like, the problem with Senate is he thinks he can't die. He has this belief, this belief that he has some God-given right to win every race no matter what. That's messionic, right? And you know, when you think about the personality

types, right? I mean, Prosth was as far as I can ascertain a practical man. I mean, there's a reason why his nickname was the professor, right? Like his goal was I'm gonna win as much as I can. It's okay. It's probably holistic and yet we play that. Yeah, I want victory. I want, you know, I want the fame and fortune that comes along with it and fucking obviously I want to survive it, right? Because like there's a whole bunch of things to do afterwards and you know that mentality running up against a messionic meaning to like everything, right? To every qualifier, in every practice session, in every little loan, every race, they were so different

that I think it was almost impossible that they weren't going to clash in ways that became deeply personal. But when you take them out of that crucible, right, that these were people that ultimately, I think, had deep respect for the differences in them. I mean, I think in ways maybe one might say, Prost could have used a little bit of Senna and Senna could have used a little bit of Prost. Yeah, but they were oil and water. They wouldn't make sense.

I mean, Frank Williams from the day he first saw Sennah always wanted him on his team and the reason it took until 1994 was because Prost was there and Prost had a clause in his contract that said I will never be on the same team as Sennah Yeah, yeah, so he had to wait for Prost to retire to leave McLaren. Right. Which Frank Williams, I mean, my understanding, and from what I've read, is that Frank Williams

loved pitting people against one another, right? I mean, how did, look, I think the most exciting person I ever watched drive, I do think is Nigel Mansl. And you look at Mansl was considered kind of second rate, right? He was, you know, at a time there were ones and twos, you know, he was the two to Andredi. And I think he was a two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, three. Peter Pekae. He was a two to Pekae as well, right? Well, when Frank Williams had him as the two to Pekae, that was because, well, Pekae was

the acknowledged number one. Right. But it wasn't. But Mansl was saying, Oh, God, no. Right. And, and, but it wasn't. But Mansoul was saying, oh God no. Right, and Williams wasn't the kind to say, look, you know, you have to say number two. Right, he was a kind of, look, you're starting number two, but you want to be number one, you know. Do not improve it. And part of, you know, P.K.s kind of denigration,

I think, you know, his haughty condescension to Mansoul is part of all I can furiated him, you know, and I think made him, you know, really among the greatest of the greats. I mean, you watch, I believe it's Mexico City. You watch mantle pass burger on the outside. I mean, like, mantle, all the impossible things with impossible aggression. And I think Senna said at one point that they asked him, like, who do you worry when

you see someone in your river mirror and he said, the only person you worried about was mantle because he's content to go over you if he can't go around you. I mean, that's a powerful statement coming from Santa and part of what did that was, I think the infuriation of being the number two to a condescending number one and wanting to trounce him. That's why that era. I mean, my God, like, it's just unbelievable to me to go back. And I get, honestly, it sounds awful to say this, but I much prefer enjoying, enjoy watching races from that area than even watching races today,

which isn't to say I don't enjoy races today. And I think this year with Mercedes and Ferrari both being so close, it's actually quite exciting again. It for, I think Formula One has had a few years of really uninteresting racing, because so much of, as you said, so much mechanical, so much of it is in the car now, unless it's in the driver, but, you know, back then you really got to see the difference. Yeah, I think that was an era when the force of personality.

You think about the difference in personalities of Senna, Prost, and Mansell, right? But where there, I mean, are the other ever stronger personalities on the face of the planet and the force of personality could lead to seemingly impossible things. And from my perspective, that was incredibly exciting to watch. I mean, what is the limit of human potential? In this arena where human potential, in terms of physical stamina, cognitive ability, you know, reflexes, you know, the kind of things that we most respect in people in terms of being able to do incredible things. It's incredible things in the body and the mind, and then putting those together. And then you put that together, you put that together with the force of personality and I think again, I think it gives us an insight

into things that we usually don't see, you know, like the depths of human struggles in wartime. And I do really believe it's also the depth of human struggle in quiet situations that no one cares about, right? I mean, I really do believe that, that I think that we get an insight not just into the people who, you know, in purple hearts, right? But I think also the people who, the other people, the person who are the person who are with nobody caring, right?

And no one watching them. And I think in many ways, you know, that's one of the greatest models of bravery. And it might seem like odd or weird, or even forced to like, to compare that to things that these people did on a track under the greatest crucible of bringing talent and ability and bravery to the fore. But I really, I do see those parallels that I think in many ways there's a lot of parallels between these people that we're talking about, and no no one knows their names and they're struggling quietly.

They're struggling quietly for the next paycheck that puts food on the table and they're struggling amidst whatever physical or emotional pain they have. And I really do mean that. I mean, again, I'm not trying to be forced about it. I may come off that way, but I think even back when I was younger seeing this, I realized that there's, you know, this is like human struggle under the microscope, but it's emblematic of all sorts of human struggle that, you know, that often is inaccessible to us because it's in a place we can't go, which could be, the quiet struggles of the unselibrated as much as it could be the battlefield.

So one last driving question, I don't know if the video exists anymore on YouTube. I actually ended up just buying a copy of it because I was so happy. But rendezvous. Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully we'll be able to find a copy of it and link to it, but if we can't, and there's a good chance we won't be able to. I do recommend you go on Amazon and you splurge and just buy the DVD of of Claude Lelouch, his very famous short film called rendezvous which you introduced me to when we were in medical school. I hadn't actually

seen that. Well that was like, I mean it was like the automotive equivalent of a snuff film. I don't even know where I first saw that but I think it was somebody who had some like VHS copy of it. I mean, it was when we first were watching it together, it was this legendary, inaccessible thing. Yeah, that you'd heard about, but never seen. And I still remember we were at Piles House when you whipped out either the VHS or whatever and we somehow watched it. I mean, we probably watched it 50 times because you couldn't believe you were seeing this thing.

So, what's your best guess? Who is the driver? You know, I have no idea. And part because I had these guesses, but now I think the knowledge of who it was or wasn't has kind of moved ahead. So, you know, my thought that might have been Jackie X, for example, like, again, I don't know if like, that's been entirely debunked and it clearly isn't.

De pa ye, I believe, De pa ye was still alive at the time, and you know, the thought of like, okay, who was in front of me. It had to be someone who was an amazing driver, pretty, pretty fearless, and had to know Paris like the back of their hand. Yeah, and also in an era that, I think Grande Vu is one of the most amazing things filmed, but I also,

you know, there's a part of me that I want to sound like a schoolmorm that wants to look, they clearly put other people's lives at risk. Right? So, like, in the craziness of the 70s and in that era of really being untamed, you would need someone who would just be able to literally throw all caution to the wind about self and other. I mean, Lillouch was arrested when that film showed. I think because the thought was that he was driving. Yes. And it was shown.

It's made to appear that he's driving at the very end. Because he gets out of the car. He gets out of the car. But having now watched it 87 times on slow-mo, it's clear that he's superimposed. He basically sneaks in and looks like he's getting out, but he wasn't the driver. There's no way. Right. I mean, unless he was a closet Formula One driver, it's like, how could you be that, like,

how could you be that adapted, right? If you adept right if you weren't like one of a handful of people I mean that that would be my take on it again. I maybe that's wrong But I think that's why people started looking to okay who are the Formula One drivers who are like completely fearless would throw caution to the wind in no Paris and you know and then they were just kind of a handful of names I mean I love some day to know the definitive answer, but certainly watching it, again, I think that's emblematic of an era, right? Of an era when, I mean, I believe that it was the first time

when cameras could be mounted in cars, right? And you could have like stabilized. Yeah, you had gyroscopic technology based on the first time. Yeah, so the first time. And of course, to this day, there's still huge debate as to whether it was a Mercedes dubbed over a Ferrari.

Whether the Ferrari was dubbed over the Mercedes or if it was the actual Ferrari being driven. And again, I don't know enough. I mean, I try and think about the sound versus the visual synchrony. And it seems to me like, I'm not so sure how that could have been dubbed. But again, what do I know? There's no dispute that the sound is that of the Ferrari. So you're right. The question is, I mean, again, this is now

we're getting so deep in baseball. It's like, but of course, you and I are the only two listening. At this point, it's probably safe to say there is not another person on earth that is listening. Now you and I are just talking and we happen to be recording. That's exactly right. Finland wants to know how boring, pedantic, and tedious our lives actually are. This is the perfect indicator, right?

We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do.

We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. We don't know I think it's really great that a podcast whose title is the drive finally gets to have an episode albeit a relatively short one that focuses on driving. And there's no person I enjoy talking about driving with more than you.

So that, thank you for that. Thank you. And I hope that, you know, we're going to have lots of things that for anyone who managed to get through this part about driving and who finds themselves Interested or wants to know more about it. We're gonna link to some unbelievable videos about all of these great personalities that we've discussed and If nothing else, hopefully it gives you some appreciation of the amazing technical skill that goes into what these guys have done. Yeah You can find all of this information and more at pterotiamd.com

forward slash podcast. There you'll find the show notes, readings, and links related to this episode. You can also find my blog and the Nerd Safari at pterotiamd.com. What's a nerd safari you ask? Just click on the link at the top of the site to learn more. Maybe the simplest thing to do is to sign up for my subjectively non-lame once a week email where I'll update you on what I've been up to, the most interesting papers I've read, and all things related to longevity, science, performance, sleep, etc. On social you can find me on Twitter, Instagram,

and Facebook, all with the ID, Peter, ATF, MD, but usually Twitter is the best way to reach me to share your questions and comments. Now for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice. And note, no doctor-patient relationship is formed. The use of this information and the materials linked to the podcast is at the user's own risk.

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