The Recipe with Kenji and Deb - Live from Seattle: Deb in conversation with Kenji

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

Kenji has many pans going on the fire at all times, one of which was directing this year’s Community Curated Series for Seattle Arts & Lectures. In January 2024, he invited his future podcast bestie Deb onstage with him to chop it up about recipe development (and theft!), family, and greasy bags of Dick’s. Thanks to Alison Stagner and Woogee Bae of Seattle Arts & Lectures for their help.

Hi, this is Audrey Mardovich, executive producer of Radiotopia. Deb and Kenji are still on a little summer break, so we wanted to bring you a special episode. Back in January, while we were still kind of getting ready for the launch of the recipe, Deb and Kenji did a live event together in Seattle, Washington, which is Kenji's hometown. He hosted the event. And when we first saw some of the video clips coming out of this event, we just saw how much fun the two of them were having on stage

and how much fun the audience was having. And I think we knew at that point that we had something special on our hands. So that really fueled the early part of making this podcast. And I want to say a special thanks to Seattle Arts and Lectures for graciously allowing us to share the audio with you all. So here we go.

Here is Deb and Kenji live in conversation together in Seattle at Seattle Arts and Lectures. All right, I'm gonna start here and then I'll move over there. Thank you all for coming here. This is a lot of people. So yeah, so I want to thank Sal for inviting me to curate this series this year. I want to thank Laura and the folks at Book Larder for being great friends for all the years I've been in Seattle so far, and also, of course, for helping out with the event today. So Deb, Deb Perlman, I'm sure everybody here knows Deb Perlman, that's why you're all here. You know, I invited her to be one of the three guests in this series,

and for the same reason I invited the other two, which is that I think she's interesting and I want to talk to her more. And I'm hoping that folks that I find interesting, you'll also find interesting. So Deb is the creator of Smitten Kitchen. It's one of these sort of OG food blogs. It's been around, I think, 2006. I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong.

But since 2006, which is a little bit before Serious Eats started doing recipes. But Deb and I, we've sort of been in similar circles and followed sort of similar career paths since that era. She, after founding Smitten Kitchen, she's now written three cookbooks. So the Smitten Kitchen book, the Smitten Kitchen, oh, the everyday one, I can't remember the name

of the everyday one, but the simple oneitten Kitchen, oh, the everyday one, I can't remember the name of the everyday one, but the simple one. The middle one, the second one. And then Smitten Kitchen Keepers, which came out last year. Yeah, that one there. Yeah, is it everyday, is that what it's called? Yeah, okay. Anyhow, I'm always interested to find out

what the process of other people in my field are. I find it really interesting, because recipe writing, you kind of get a glimpse into not only the recipe writers' psychology, but also how they view other people. Because that's what a lot of recipe writing is, is trying to figure out how other people think, so that you can write them instructions that work. But anyhow, this is all conversation

I should be having with her, not by myself in front of you. So yeah, Deb Perlman. Deb, you can come out. Okay. Oh my goodness. What am I in for? Hi. I'm sorry. We've got like multiple devices. So if you see us on devices, I've got... Are you going to put the GoPro on? Please. This is questions from you. So if you have more questions to add, I believe you should have been given instructions on

how to get those questions onto this iPad. So this is a question from you. So if you have more questions to add, I believe you should have been given instructions on how to get those questions onto this iPad. So this is a question from you. So if you have more questions to add, I believe you should have been given instructions on how to get those questions onto this iPad. So this is a question from you.

So if you have more questions to add, I believe you should have been given instructions on how to get those questions onto this iPad. So this is a question from you. So if you have more questions to add, I believe you should have been given instructions on how to get those questions onto this iPad. So this is a question from you. So if you have more questions to add, I believe you should have been given instructions on how to get those questions onto this iPad. So this is a question from you. So if you have more questions to add, I believe you should have been given instructions on how to get those questions onto this iPad.

So this is going to be questions from you. These are questions that I wrote down just in case I forget everything, which I hope won't happen. And do you have a device too? I have a device here too. I did not print out my questions before I came from a hotel room. And then this is a greasy bag of Dix.

So I moved to Seattle three years ago. Oh, three years ago. And I've since discovered, well, Dix. So Dix is a local burger chain. And I love a good local burger chain. And Dix is a unique one. OK.'s is the local burger chain, and I love a good local burger chain, and Dick's is a unique one. Okay.

But so... What is unique about Dick's? You kind of got to try it. So yeah, yeah, I thought if someone's never had Dick's, you should try it. This is a Dick's Deluxe. Oh, wow. And some fries. He got me fries.

Oh, it smells so good. Oh, it's so warm. Yeah. You don't want to so much taste it, it's just kind of experience it, you know? How can I experience it without tasting? Am I just supposed to look at it and like, just say like, can I describe what I see with like... You gotta imagine you're outside right now

and the sidewalk is like wet and a little grimy. I was gonna say, don't tell me it's a sunny day in Seattle. I'll know you're lying. And you're drunk also. That I am not, but maybe I can fix that. What's in the other? Oh, in here. No, this is tea.

I'm not supposed to analyze. I'm just supposed to bite into it. You can analyze. You can do whatever you want to do. I'm seeing it's a double patty. Yeah. All right. There's lettuce, pickles.

I'm not sure. There's cheese? There's lettuce. There's cheese. So they say, there's cheese, there's... So they say mayo and chopped pickles, it's basically like tartar sauce, yeah? That sounds like really good to me. Alright, I'm going in. Yeah, go for it.

I'm going in. Oh god. Mmm. Yeah. You don't have to pretend. No. Good, good, good. That is not my pretend face.

Oh, I like it. I mean, my Bertrand face. I like it. I mean you're known for being mean to everyone. I want a little pickle. I know I have a mean reputation. That dub is such a bully. I like it a lot. I like it because it's really thin. And you don't need to unhinge your jaw to eat it. Yes, you don't have to.

With so many burgers these days, like why are they so thick? Are people's mouths getting bigger? And like, how are you guys eating this? It's like light on your jaws and pretty light on your wallet too. Oh, I love this kind of fry though. They're dark and they already, they keep the skin on. They keep some of the skin on, they're dark and they-

I'm, I just wanna be doing- And the- I know, you gotta do it. I'm eating dinner, you talk. I was gonna say, the texture that the fries are now is basically the texture that they are when they serve them to you. He never likes this kind of fries because he says they're not crispy enough, but I feel like... I'm taking my mouthful to eat these evil.

Sorry. My grandmother would roll over. Wadded fries. Fries that come by the wad. But I feel like they have a lot more flavor to them, and they're probably one of my favorites. I love it. I think they have more flavor because they kind of fold up and capture salt a little more.

And there's also definitely a lot more of the oiliness in there. Yeah, and when they cool off, I don't feel like they get instantly dry, like some fries do. The really white fries get super dry when they're cool. Like in-and-out fries. What? Like in-and-out fries. I am not going to be on the West Coast.

Oh, are we doing this? I'm not a fan. We don't have to do anything. Oh, we don't have to do this? That's OK. Shake Shack fries are terrible, too. Shake Shack? Yeah.

Those Crankle fries are so bad. The original ones were good. OK. No, no. So the original fries are the frozen ones. This is why you can't get Kentie and I in a room, because we will not stay on the subject. Can you imagine what our podcast editors have to go through,

trying to keep us on the topic of the day? Do you remember when the Shake Shack on the Upper East Side, like 86th and Lexington, something like that, it opened up, it was like the third or fourth location. Which was not the original fries, the original fries were the frozen ones, but when the one on 86th Street opened up, Ed Levine, who is an old friend of ours,

used to be my boss, he's the founder of Serious Eats, but he used to campaign the folks at Shake Shack to put real fries on their menu, because at Shake Shack they do the frozen crinkle cuts. Most restaurants use frozen fries? Yeah, well, yes, yes. But not dance. And there's nothing wrong with frozen fries.

Most of the time frozen fries are more consistent and better, I think. But yeah,. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with frozen fries. Most of the time, frozen fries are more consistent and better, I think. But yeah, frozen fries, but it's not the crinkle cut. It was the crinkle cut that was the issue. And then for a while, Shake Shack switched to doing fresh fries only at that location as a test, and people loved them, and then they rolled them out across all their locations and people revolted.

They were revolted, they did revolt and were revolted but the crinkles are so bad they're so bad they just arrived dry what's that the crinkles are not good even piping hot and crispy they're still not good yes well cheese cheese sauce there's there's cheese sauce saves a lot of cheese is the answer to all problems are we staying on topic I don don't know what topic is. We actually do. We have topics. I have a topic.

Well, I wanted to talk to you first. Can I ask you questions first? You can ask me questions first. As I was mentioning, I wanted to get a little bit into your process because I know how I develop recipes. But I don't know how you develop. Tell me how you develop recipes. but I don't know how you develop. I mean, well, now I do. Wait, tell me how you develop recipes.

Well, first of all, okay, so who was here a year ago? So I met Deb for the first time, like on this, well, I guess backstage. Literally, like five minutes before. About a year ago. Uh-huh. On the Seattle Stop for Deb's book tour. Do you remember what I said to you backstage?

When I met you for the very first time? What? I should have reviewed this with him first. I said, I'm such a fan, it's so nice to meet you. I love your work. And I'm terrified of your fans. Oh yeah. My fans are the worst, not like these people here.

What did you say? What did you say? I don't remember, I think I probably said, yeah, I understand. You're like, I am too. Sorry. It was jokingly. How many folks were there tonight were there for Deb's last event here? Hi.

I'm sorry to tell you I haven't gotten any less awkward in the last year. So, here we are. Well, that event was the first night that we really spoke. We've had maybe correspondence here and there in the past, just because we run in the same circles. But that was the first time we'd met in person and spoken in person. And we had such a fun time at that event that we decided, hey, we should do a thing together.

We should do a podcast. So in the years since then, we've been working on this podcast. So I hope you guys, you should say like, like and subscribe or something. This is not a plug for the podcast. The point of the podcast, which is called the recipe, is about the process of developing recipes.

And so, I do have some idea of your development process. But I thought today we could talk more about it. And in the podcast, we focus on sort of specific recipes. Today, I want to focus more on just how you go about developing recipes. So in the beginning, how do you decide what recipe you're going to be working on? Is it just one at a time or do you have a million recipes at once? No, I'm working on a million recipes at once. It's very unhealthy and disorganized, as might be evident from you looking at my website.

It usually starts with a craving, like either a craving or a hunger, like something that I want to make while at home and I don't have a good airtight recipe for it. Once in a while it comes with like a suggestion from the outside, like somebody reminding me that I haven't done a simple weeknight like turkey chili or something like that,

but most of the time it comes from me not having like the recipe that I want for the thing that I want to make. So if you have a Venn diagram, and these are things that you want, and then these are things that other people want you to do? What I want is mostly what matters. Everything is always going to land somewhere in the what you want circle. It's not a democracy. It wouldn't work. I'm too selfish and I would not be able to motivate myself into the kitchen for anything but what I want. So do you have a team?

No. Do you have folks who advise you on like we need a recipe, like people are searching for this. No. We need that? I have nobody. No, I have an assistant. She doesn't do that.

My previous assistant was who I had, she was my assistant for about 10 years, but she hasn't been with me for the last couple years. It's okay, it's okay. We parted amicably. I miss her. But she used to be great about suggesting things. In fact, I would say a lot of the recipes that ended up in Submitted Kitchen Capers

were her nidging me. Her saying, you really haven't done a recipe for this, and you should do a recipe for this. And I would always, I would always say, I don't wanna do a recipe for that. Everybody has a recipe for that. It's not interesting. Besides, if I was to do a recipe for that,

I would do it this way, and this way, and this way. And she's like, I think that's your recipe. I'm like, that's my recipe. So sometimes it happens like that too, where I just start listing off like a festivus of grievances with recipes. And then I realize that in this space left, I've actually created the recipe of what,

or like the blueprint for what I want. Right, right, right. So do you think of your recipe development process as a process of like discovery, of problem solving, of something else? I think of it more as problem solving. And I usually tend to do quite a bit of work outside the kitchen where I'll look at,

if I'm working on a chili recipe, all the chili recipes I've done, all the chili recipes I've tried, if there's something interesting, if Kenji has a chili recipe, I might make his as research, or if there's something that I think particularly- You'll describe it as too complicated.

Not worth the results? Yes, and then three days later when I finished the recipe But I put everything together into what I call like one best-case scenario recipe And it's an open document on a laptop in the kitchen Riss sorry, so your best-case scenario recipe is like is like a kind of cobbled together where I think this level... I basically write a draft of the recipe. And then as I'm testing, I basically change everything or just delete. And then I take notes as I go.

Yeah. Okay. That's similar to actually how the Cooks Illustrated process is where... Wow. That's so cool. Have you met the folks at Cooks Illustrated? I've gotten to go up there twice. I haven't been there in a few years.

So at Cooks Illustrated, the process there... I worked there for, I don't know how long, three or four years, I can't remember, but the process there... They do at the beginning what they call the five recipe tests, where when you decide what recipe you're going to work on, which is always exactly what the reader wants, nothing to do with what you want. That's where you differ.

But the first step of the recipe process is finding a cross-section of five recipes that you think are either representative of the recipes out there, or the breadth of recipes out there, or recipes that you think look particularly destined to be good or have a particularly interesting technique. And so you do those five recipes and then get feedback on them and then you kind of cobble together a working recipe from like the bits and like a Franken recipe

from the bits and pieces that. I think it's a lot like that. And also over the years I might have made these recipes and I always try to take notes when I make a recipe. I'm like, I liked this, I didn't like this, I think this idea has legs and then I make something else. I will say that if I've drafted up a I make a recipe. I'm like, I liked this, I didn't like this, I think this idea has legs, and then I make something else.

I will say that if I've drafted up a version of a recipe that I think will work and then I'm looking around and that basically exists and somebody's published it, I'll probably just make there as whole like beginning to end and just make sure that I'm, I have something to add. Because if it's just going to be the same as what's already published, even if I got there on my own, I don't want to do it for VEGUM. So let's say there is this hole in your repertoire. And you're like, let's say it's a hole for, you've got like a hole for pasta puttanesca, right?

Okay. Do you? I don't know. No, no, I think I have one. Oh, you know what's a good example? What I put on socials today was the coconut cream pie. I had not done a coconut cream pie. Everyone loves the, or at some point has loved, the Dahlia bakery one.

And I really, I made that one, and I felt like it was a very good version. I made a few tweaks, like the way I prefer to make custard and crust and whipped cream, so that's pretty fundamental tweaks. But the gesture, the spirit is from there. Okay, but I mean, that's what I do. I try to make recipes work more reliably for everybody.

So that's, I think, a perfect example of like the recipe was out there and it's really just adapted from there. So say you have that whole. The whole is in your heart, the whole is in your blog. And you find a recipe that exists out there and it's just perfect. And there's nothing you can say, nothing you can do, nothing you can change about it. Do you, how do you, how do you share that recipe with

your readers? Most of it, I would say in earlier years I would probably do a version of it. These days I would just tell you to make the other one. Okay. Especially if that person's publishing and like out there, you know, you know, trying to get. What's changed over those years? I think that I feel a lot more limited than I used to when I make other people's recipes. I'm not good at it the way I used to be. I'm not good at making other people's recipes.

I want to change everything. And so I guess, yeah, so I'm not, I'm really, when I've decided to make a recipe from a cookbook, I really struggle sticking to it and not changing everything to the point that it might be like insulting to the cookbook, to be like, this is a great cookbook, I like the recipe, I changed everything about it.

I would start and publish recipes that were going in that direction and I wasn't supposed to be insulting, but that's where I just kind of, that was a very long answer. I don't do it as much. Did that answer the question? I think so.

I answered a question. Can I ask you a question? You have more questions. I was going to ask you another question on a similar subject. There's a lot of stuff going on on the internet right now about plagiarism. I don't know if people watch YouTube drama, and everyone's familiar with Hbomberguy's video, with this 80 million view video about plagiarism. No.

It's about the essay video space in YouTube. But as you and I both know, there's also a lot of recipe plagiarism that goes on. What is your take on when people, and I'm sure it's happened to you, but when people take your work uncredited, do you care, does that bother you? And has that changed over the years,

from 2007 till 2020? I see the offline a little bit. I have a little document. You can't open it. Nobody's ever going to see it called like shit list. I put it there, a little link to the recipe that's pissing me off. And then I move on because I'm not out of ideas. That's the benevolent view.

I'm not out of ideas. Some people have to take ideas. Does that help you writing the list? Sometimes. Or just knowing that it exists. No, it makes me crappy. But there are people who have to take ideas, and there are people who have ideas.

And I don't think I've gotten through 10% of my ideas. So I'm not going to run out, and I can just keep creating stuff. That's the benevolent view. Thank you. OK, that's a good attitude. That's the benevolent view. Writing you. Okay, that's a good attitude. Writing a list is a good idea. I should do that. Just keep a little list and then you just close the document and it's there. And then it's just stupid.

I feel like my therapist tells me to keep lists of things. Yeah, my therapist definitely improves the list. I'll ask you a question. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. You've written something on the list right now. All right. So first of all, what's your recipe development

process like? That was not on my list, but now I want to ask you this, too. You mean, like, start to finish? Yeah, start to, like, the whole thing. Or how is it different? Like, chunk from the Goonies-style story, just every detail? What does it start with?

Does your editor, for your... Which is... Like the New York Times, do they tell you what to write or do you pitch things? I pitch things, yeah. It's more, you know... There's different inspirations. Most of the time, it's similar to yours,

where it's like, I'm working on something for dinner, it's like, I need to cook for my family. And either it's like, oh, I have an idea based on ingredients I had in my fridge and this might be useful for other people. Or sometimes it's like, you know what, here's this like, oftentimes it's more like, hey, here's this recipe that seems to have a lot of details involved in it.

You know? That people seem to like to debate. I don't know, like schnitzel, right? Like people like to talk about it and debate it. And there's like all this stuff. So I do like to debate, I don't know, like schnitzel, right? Like people like to talk about it and debate it, and there's like all this stuff. So I do like to look for recipes that are ripe with avenues for testing, because I find the testing bits.

Do you test at dinnertime? Because I find myself doing that a lot. Like if I see an interesting schnitzel recipe, and something I haven't tried before, I'm going to say, I'm going to make this for dinner tonight. And that becomes... Yeah, I mean, certainly I don't waste food. If I'm testing schnitzel, then we eat a lot of schnitzel at home.

I think for me, it's like before I'm even working on a schnitzel recipe, I might just be like, oh, this sounds interesting, making it for dinner, take some notes another time, like, oh, this is another one, make a different recipe. And now when I decide I want to develop a schnitzel recipe, I look back at my notes from the first and the second and go back to it. But sometimes I just pick it up for dinner time

because I was curious. I would say, yeah, absolutely. Generally, if I'm interested in something, the first few times I'll just make it without really thinking about it too much and just trying to get a kind of, you know, instead of a Cooks Illustrated style five recipe test, I'll do a make this at home for dinner a couple times. You know, recipe test where, where, yeah, I do look at existing recipes and

sort of make sure that I understand like what, I mean, I guess, I guess that's the first step. Like once I just, once I think, okay, schnitzel, then I want to get an idea of what people think schnitzel is, you know, and so it's wrong. However you make it, that's one of the things you find out about a lot of dishes is that people in different countries have different ideas. People in Germany versus Austria have different ideas. You got to figure out who your audience is and you got to make sure that you at least address alternate viewpoints so that you can show you are thorough in your work.

I'm going to switch just slightly. Is there such thing as a deal breaker in a recipe for you? Is there something that could come up in a recipe and you're like, absolutely not, I'm out. I'm not doing it. Like it could be an ingredient or it could be something that takes time. Like if you were looking at a recipe to make, is there anything that you would just sign off?

I mean, you know, for me, recipes are almost always like a last minute... I don't go peruse my cookbooks looking for a recipe and plan to make it next Sunday. I don't do that. It's more like, I have these blueberries that are going to go bad. I want to make blueberry muffins. Does Deb have a recipe? Nah. I've never heard of a recipe for a recipe.

A recipe is great, by the way. The deal breaker for me for any recipe is basically if I well There's not really a deal breaker for a recipe because I don't follow the recipes I'll like use them as a guideline, you know And I feel like once you once you understand sort of the technical aspects of cooking enough You don't really you don't need to follow the exact recipe So you're just vibing in the kitchen vibing and and and if a recipe tells me like I have to leave the house to go get this thing, then I'm not going to do that.

We're no longer vibing with that. We're no longer vibing with this recipe. What about you? What's your deal breaker? Marmite, it turns out. I was making your- It instantly cuts out half of my recipes. No, it does not.

I made your meatloaf a week or two ago, and I got all the ingredients, and then I got to the marmite, and I'm like, I'm not. I am not buying this for half a teaspoon of Marmite. Do people know what Marmite is? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

I don't know, I don't think I've bought any since I've come to Seattle. I don't know where you get it here. Isn't the shelf life eternal? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so maybe I should buy it. You think our jar got lost in the move. I just thought that was the one thing.

I'm like, I get to pick one thing I'm not gonna do, and I'm not buying Marmite. You can't make me. Okay. But you still made the recipe. Also, I live in a small apartment and I have a small fridge and I just cannot with ingredients that I have no plans to use again. I bought everything else though. So, okay.

I found some gelatin that had expired in 2016. You know, there are always like people making fun of like their parents for having really old stuff in their kitchens, but what they don't tell you is when you get older, your stuff gets older too. And if you've been cooking for 12 years you probably have some 12 year expired recipes and if you... ingredients so... all right so you don't have... there's no such thing as a recipe deal breaker for you because you're just kind of like vibing

and working. Yeah I don't often follow strict. Do you follow strict recipes? Very strictly. I'm a very literal recipe cook. I love recipes. Even when I've made it a million times, I love recipes. I love the guidance. I love the guarantee. And it should have a guarantee or it's not a good recipe. But I like the idea that like, it's already been figured out

and I can just like be on this ride and it will get me to this dish that I want. Do you like to watch like you don't like to watch your kids and see like the delight in their face when they realize there's like twice as much nutmeg in the mac and cheese this time? No I think when I get it exactly right I want to make it exactly that way and if I'm changing it I'm changing it in a very, like, and other reason is because sometimes I'll just be messing around and I won't write things down and it will be perfect and I'll never get that back.

I'll never be able to recreate it. So I really like, I like following recipes as part of my own recipe development and I like following recipes as part of like, days are long, life is difficult. If I follow ABC, I'm going to have an amazing dish. And I think that's a beautiful thing to give yourself. So, wow, thanks. Oh, how do you win? So when you follow it, when you use that approach, how do you account for?

So a couple of things like how do you count for? First of all, like if like a brand of something you you like isn't available and or even beyond that, like, how do you count for like, like all, if a brand of something you like isn't available? Or even beyond that, how do you count for, I don't know, brand drift? It's like the McCormick whatever, oregano, today is not going to be the same. The one that you have that's from 1986. I'll let it go.

I mean, obviously, if your paprika is a few years old, it's not going to have any flavor. It's just like red dust. Even one year, it's just like red dust. I just let it go. I generally I use kind of like middle-of-the-road products especially when I'm thinking about recipe developing like store-brand butter or I don't know King Arthur or gold metal flour. I'm trying not to use anything. But I mean if the recipe is perfect, right, you tasted it, it's perfect. But then the next time it's like your onions a little less pungent. No, it doesn't happen.

Maybe this happens to you, it doesn't happen. Your paprika is suddenly five years old. Maybe this happens to you. It doesn't happen to me. I don't know. I don't feel like it's happened a lot, but usually I can pinpoint what it is because I've made it a bunch of times the same way. And so I know like, oh, the cheese didn't melt. Well, it might be that I'm using this different brand.

Yeah, because I mean, you at least can blame it on the paprika. I will definitely blame it. It's not me. I'm perfect. So if something else happened, it. It's not me. I'm perfect. So it's something else happened. It was probably the grocery store. All right.

So no such thing as a deal breaker and a recipe for you. What food do you not ever get sick of, like for the rest of your life? Pizza. You didn't even have to finish the question. So the last time, not the last time. Wait, wasn't the last time we saw each other? Not the last time we saw each other,

but the time before the last time. When we were in, when we were in, we met at. We went to McSorley's, and we met those guys. Yes, so we went to McSorley's, which is an old bar in New York. Very old bar. Only recently started letting women in. Not like 50, it's like 50 years ago.

No, it really, I mean it's relatively, you're thinking, oh 1920s, no, it was like the 70s or something. I have to look it up, it was really late. 70s it was really I got it I listened to the podcast it was it was begrudgingly and it was I think it don't quote me on it I'll Google it but it was late much later than you think well we were at McSorley's and and then we went a couple blocks away to a pizzeria that at the time at the pizzeria formerly known as funsies it's away to a pizzeria that at the time, the pizzeria formerly known as Funzee's.

I thought it was great. Yeah, so the pizzeria is still there. I don't know what they changed their name to. They had a bad breakup. The Funzee is the name of the kid of the owner. The owner and the chefs and the landlords or something had a bad breakup. Something's going... The space is cursed. I think there's something with the landlord.

But the pizza... The guys making the pizza are the same. Okay. And they took the Funzee's off the sign and it just says pizzeria now. I think there's something with the landlord. But the pizza, the guys making the pizza are the same. Okay. And they took the funsies off the sign, and it just says Pizzeria now, I think. Or at least the last time I was there, it just said Pizzeria. It's three blocks to my apartment. I'm like, oh, I had no idea. Why would I think that?

But anyhow, we were there. That's where we met last time we were in New York. And I was in the middle of a... I was recording... You were doing like a pizza walk. I was in New York for just a couple days, yeah. But I was in New York for like maybe 50 hours, and I ate nothing but pizza the whole time.

How did you feel after? What's that? How did you feel? I felt good, I don't know. Maybe we should study him. I would be on my deathbed. I'd be like, I just need one piece of broccoli. Like broccoli in one hand and kale in the other.

It's just like packing. There's good pizza in Seattle, but it's different. How has your cooking evolved since having children? Oh, I mean, there's good pizza in Seattle, but it's different. How has your cooking evolved since having children? Oh, I mean, a lot. Are you still making 14 ingredient, 17 ingredient meatloaves on a weekday night? No, I don't know. I told you, I don't get ingredients that aren't already in my kitchen. So you're just buying, because you're buying.

Yeah, no, I mean, I use a lot more pre-made stuff, for sure. I mean, I guess it hasn't evolved too much in the sense that I still try and use what I've got at home. I don't make special trips or things. But also, you have to factor in the fact that you can't be in your kitchen all day on a Sunday. Or if you are, you're going to have distractions. Or if you're going to be doing something with your kids, they're gonna be, like whatever you need to do

is gonna take four times longer. And then they're gonna be, I'm hungry. And you're like, I know, you're making it take a long time. That's why dinner's not ready. Sorry to interrupt, right? I'm hungry. Yes, yeah. So, yeah, certainly being a lot more aware

of people's time constraints. Which, yeah, I don't know. My audience is aging with me, I hope. I do feel like that. It's definitely helpful. What about you? Like when you were younger, Deb, just starting out, just starting out Spending Kitchen,

like does current Deb, current young Deb, like all the hopes and dreams that younger Deb had starting out at Spend Kitchen, like what were your hopes and dreams? Like did you have a plan in mind? No, no, I've never had a plan or a agenda. I don't even have a plan for this year, guys. I'm really not a planner at all, which is evident.

Did you think about why am I doing this, where am I going with it, what's gonna happen? No. And like five years into it, were you thinking about that? No. No, I know, it sounds so bad, but I was just like, this is really fun,

and I'm glad I get to keep doing it, I'm gonna keep doing it. Yeah. And that was it, I've never had like a five year plan or a 10 year plan, and I'm sure I should, and I would probably have like my life a lot more together if I did, but I'm mostly, so I'm vibing with my career. Do you find?

That's where my vibing is. It's the only vibe I have. Just gonna roll with it and see what happens. Do you find any parts of it not fun? Yeah. Oh, that was too quick. Anything I don't feel like doing that moment is not fun. Like no longer fun.

I don't know, I like social media but it takes up a lot of time. I know I'm supposed to have hired a social media intern or whatever takes up a lot of time. I know I'm supposed to have hired a social media intern or whatever, but that also seems ridiculous. I love the chatty part of the social media, but like. Right, and you can't hire someone to chat for you, right? No, I don't, no, that's the part I like.

I just mean like, you know, just trying to pull things from the archives and stuff. I guess it's outsourceable. I'm very bad at outsourcing, so I kind of just do everything myself. And there's things... It gets to be a job. And I never wanted a job. I didn't start this because I wanted a job.

Doing live events. Yeah. No, this is fun. No, I just mean, I always try to... And, yeah, so there's definitely parts that I would say I wouldn't do for free. How do you man... so as someone who is basically in charge of your entire output and in charge of all your publicity, it's like there's this thing in your life, and I don't know if this is, at least for me,

I don't know if it's the same for you, but where it feels like everything you do has some impact on your career one you know, one way or another, and it's difficult, like I often find it difficult to disengage, like part of my process, like my growing process since I started doing this has been, yeah, like trying to disengage those two things and trying to figure out how to really make sure

that I set boundaries for myself. Not working 24-7. Yeah, how do you deal with all that? No, it's definitely a thing. I don't feel like there's ever a day that I don't do any work at all. Like there's always something. It's usually like checking in with social media or just like, you know, reading new comments that have come in.

I will say that, I don't know, I hear about people hiring like business managers that like tell them what to do every day. I'm like, that sounds kind of nice. And I'm completely forgetting that I don't listen to anyone who tells me what to do every day. I'm like, that sounds kind of nice. And I'm completely forgetting that I don't listen to anyone who tells me what to do. Even people with very good advice were working for me. I don't know. I definitely think sometimes it would be nice to have,

you talk about having a five year plan or whatever, but I actually have many times thought it would be nice if I had a very clear vision of where I wanted to go. But although there are things I'd like to do, I didn't have one clear role model where I was like, if I could be this person, I would have the perfect career, except for Ina Garten, of course, but with that,

but aside from that. But she existed in a different world than you, right? She's in a completely different world from me. But in the, in also. Our lives would not be more different. But in the sense that you started your career in the wild west of food blog days, it was weird back then.

And you had to, nobody knew where money was coming from or where readers were coming from. It was a very different world. And because you started Smitten Kitchen, is it 2006? 2006, yeah. So it's like when magazines and newspapers were like, it was like that magazine to newspaper, like that print to digital transition period.

But they weren't transitioning. And I think in that lull, that's why you had so many blogs blowing up and people getting, because a lot of the traditional media and even newspapers, they didn't want to be online and they didn't want to have websites and their usual writers considered it

like a step down to write for the web. And so all these self-published websites, aka blogs, kind of that's what was the golden age. You couldn't have really had many idols to look up to because it was a new field. There was nobody who was doing what you were doing. Well, you had contemporaries, but not a previous generation. I mean, there are people I think are doing an amazing job. I think the Pioneer Woman is so cool.

Like, I love that she's built this whole thing for herself. But it wasn't right for me, because I'm not really... Not right for some of the people in the audience either. What? She's so lovely. Some people released some snakes under the pews. In 2008, I think, or 2009, I went out to her lodge and I hung out with her for a weekend. And it was... I'm a fan for life

I really Met her once had a serious each thing and she was the most founder person you've ever met like shockingly So yeah unrelated you were on were you on Martha Stewart's show once I've been on Martha Stewart show Very randomly just said the name Martha Stewart I very randomly, just said the name Martha Stewart when we talked about it. I have more questions. Do you have more questions? What is the ingredient that is not salt that you think a shocking

number of recipes are missing? Or the ingredient that you think people should be using more at home? To improve their cooking? To improve their cooking? There's nothing that universally fits in everything. No, but it comes up more often than, okay.

Kindness. What? Corny. Just kidding. I, a lot of times at meetings, I'm like, it needs acidity. I often feel like we're using using salt but we want acidity. Or sometimes you want bitterness and complexity or crunch, you know? Yeah, I mean I feel like acidity went through its cool phase, you know?

Certainly a lot of things miss acidity. I think it's always been cool. I know, but people were like, oh, if it's missing something, it's missing lemon juice. Yeah, acidity is the thing it's missing, which is often the case, but not always the case. So like, salt I feel is like universal. It's almost always missing. Acidity, there are dishes that don't need acidity, right? And there are dishes that like, I don't know,

oftentimes a dish could use sweetness, but not all the time. I don't want an acidic or sweet mac and cheese. Right, well, no, but like mac and cheese with pickled jalapenos is good, right? That's got acidity. I don't like hot pickles. It's weird. Okay, that's fine.

It can be like a warm bit of pickled bird and something delicious. It has to be separate cold crisp on top. But you know what, the answer I think is that if your food is missing something, like you should think about, rather than like aromas, you should be thinking of the basic, you know, like sweet, salty, acidic, bitter, spicy, like something that you sense on your tongue, something that you can still notice

if you pinched your nose, because usually it's like a balance of something on your tongue, you know, and something that's going to give you sort of a more full, like a more balanced and more full mouth feel. I don't know how you feel about the word mouth feel. A lot of people don't like the word mouth feel. What's wrong with the word mouth feel. I don't know how you feel about the word mouth feel. A lot of people don't like the word mouth feel.

What's wrong with the word mouth feel? I don't know. A lot of places I've worked, the word mouth feel was banned from. Wow, wow, I didn't know. But anyhow, it gives you a more full mouth feel, whereas. So generally salt though, you agree. For sure salt, but yeah, I think if your food is,

if you eat something and it's like, oh, what's missing? Like, it's not gonna be something like, I don't your food is, if you eat something and it's like, what's missing? Like, it's not going to be something like, I don't think it's generally going to be something like aromatic. It's going to be more something that's like one of the basic senses that are off balance. That's generally what I think. Yeah, salt or acid are usually the two biggest culprits. So the Cheetos that I got in Canada today? Yeah.

Sorry. Last night, I did an event in Vancouver and somebody asked me if I would ever make homemade Cheetos and I said absolutely not. It's a perfect food. Why would I ever? Like I would never. I would never like something. I would never. And they told me that they're in Canada. There's these, there's a different kind of Cheeto. And it's saltier and it's cheesier. And I was like, I'm there. And as I saw them in the airport. I thought Cheetos advertised itself as literally the cheesiest.

They're gonna have to take it up with the Canadians. They have different label laws. I don't know, maybe in Canada they can say things. The person told me that they were saltier and cheesier, and I was very excited, and I got it back, and I brought it. I had opened it when I got to the hotel here, and I told you earlier, I had like three, and I think I'm gonna be drinking water for the rest of my life. It was so salty, and I told you earlier, I had like three, and I think I'm gonna be drinking water

for the rest of my life. It was so salty, and I love salt. But so I was just thinking when you said that salt is the answer, I'm like, except for this one time. I cannot, like I wanted to love them so much, but the salt nearly killed me. And you're gonna ask me the brand,

and I'm gonna say, I don't know, I took a picture of it on my phone. Do you still have some? Did you? Yeah, the rest of the bag. You didn't bring it. You didn't bring it, all right. Do you have any, like, I should have brought them. I know, I took a picture of it on my phone. Do you still have some? Yeah, the rest of the bag. You didn't bring it. You didn't bring it. Do you have any out like it? I should have brought them.

I know, I could have brought something. Do you have any remnant orange dust on your fingers? No, what I had to use. You know what, how it tells me they have the makeup, the washcloth that's black? That's what I had to use to wipe my hands. Sorry, because I didn't have a napkin. Anyway, I'm fine. All right, so I think we're obligated to move on to viewer questions, to audience questions.

All right, a couple here. All right. This is actually related to a question I wanted to ask you earlier. So this is from Amy Gooder. How do you do all your amazing work in a small kitchen, which is part one? And part two? We can get to part two after the first one.

How do you do everything in a small kitchen? So my question for you actually was going to be like what your ideal kitchen workspace would be. Like whether it's big or small. You answer the basic question first and we'll get into it. I don't know, do you have a small kitchen? It depends what standards are, not New York small. Not like suburban standards small,

but not like New York City small? It's not small, no, it's not big, but it's not small. I just do less, I do less, I do one thing at a time. I don't multitask. Okay. So I just do less. I do less. I do one thing at a time. I don't multitask. Okay. So I just do less. This is my life philosophy, do less. It's a good one.

It's a good one. I just do one thing at a time. Just do one thing at well. So I just work on one thing at a time. And when I finish that dish, I might work on another dish, but all of my mistakes are made in the kitchen when I'm trying to work on two or three dishes at once.

So how do you do holidays? One at a time. You go to someone's house. I like, I just pause,? I get things to a pause point where maybe they just need to be fired or they just need to be reheated, but just one thing at a time. Unless it's like, okay, I need an onion for this dish,

this just, I'll try to chop all that. Have you ever lived in a place with a bigger kitchen? I mean, my house growing up, but I didn't cook much. It wasn't that big. So since you've been cooking. No, pretty much I've always had a small kitchen. So when people are like what would you like to do with your kitchen? What would be your dream kitchen? I'm like I haven't actually thought about it that much. Mostly it's just like a counter that doesn't wobble.

Yeah. And like cabinets that I would choose so they made sense for what I want to put in them. Like you know mostly it's about choice but it's I don't know size. I know I would be happy with a bigger kitchen, but I'm not sure that I'm unhappy without a bigger kitchen. So for me, I grew up in New York, and so we had a tiny New York galley kitchen. Two people camped in there once.

And then when we moved to the West Coast, to California at first, we were like, oh, this is a kitchen in California? And it's like, you can walk around, and you have to take seven steps to get from the fridge to the counter and stuff, and at first, you're like, oh, this is great, and then you're like, oh, I have to walk around this much?

And I feel like it's just a hassle to empty the dishwasher because I have to go to a different room. And it's like, in New York, I can stand, it was like working in a restaurant, you can stand in one spot, like, the dish for like, the cabinet for the containers is right, is on this side, I open it by like, pulling the cabinet towards my hip

and leaning over it this way. It's like, you, yeah, you learn where everything is and you don't really, it's very efficient. I find small kitchens. Also, remember restaurant kitchens? Like, each chef just, they just have a spot. They just have a spot. Oh yeah, yeah, you have like.

They don't have an entire six counters. Also, my theory is that most of the time when people have a bunch of counters, they just put stuff on them. In the same way that whenever I have a clear surface, I cover it with laundry that needs to be folded or something. Kids put stuff on it too.

Yeah, kids. No, I do it. No, I just mean like, you're gonna get more appliances and you're gonna leave them out. Like I don't keep any appliances out because I just take them out as I need them. So that goes into part two of the same question, which is what are some of your favorite tips

for maximizing storage? For maximizing storage, I don't know. I actually don't keep my dishes in the kitchen. It's a little weird, but we basically, something was going to have to leave the kitchen because there isn't enough space. So we have a regular, we have like a beautiful china cabinet, but we keep our everyday dishes in it. And that's out in like the living room, like where we

eat. So I don't know, it just works for me. And I feel like if you're gonna have something that's gonna be a display piece, I don't want it to be the pantry. I'd rather listen to these things. So your answer is basically just find another, find more storage. Find things that don't need to be in the kitchen. I also think a really big thing is like keep your counters clear. I mean, the thing is like, people can have a giant kitchen but if you've got stuff all over the corners you don't actually have usable space and I really like there's so many appliances on most people's counters I get it so what I have is this I have shelves underneath so I have like the KitchenAid and the Vitamix and I have the food processor and I yes

you do have to like heave them up but like I just take them out as I need them and have you ever seen those? Yeah I've seen like, maybe I should create a Pinterest board or something for my one day kitchen. Those cool KitchenAid stands that just go, pshh. But then I'm like, I think it would just annoy me. I don't know. I have one friend who has one of those, and I was very envious, but definitely don't want it in my kitchen.

And it just goes up and it goes right on the counter, right? It creates its own counter that comes up to your counter height. But then you can't open it to your bicep curls. I think that's the point. So for me... I have seen it, I don't have it, I've never thought about it. My storage maximizing space would be two things. First of all, get rid of glass bowls, use nesting aluminum or stainless steel,

sorry, use nesting stainless steel bowls that you get like in Chinatown for a couple bucks, you can get like 50 bowls that just all nest together and take up the space of one bowl, right? Everything in my kitchen is glass. Everything is glass. Yeah, well so, why do you use glass? I think I like a lack of visual clutter.

Okay. So I like that, you know, because even there's a lot of stuff in the kitchen, you don't feel like visually overwhelmed by it. And also I do everything with sealed glass jars for dry goods just because. Yeah. It's been like 16 years in two apartments since I once had pantry weevils, but that's it.

Like I will never, everything's in a sealed jar forever. We do that too, yeah. If you bring something home, it's not going to get into something else. And it's, you know, so if you keep everything sealed. What about mixing bowls, though? Glass. Yeah, but why? Why glass over? I think I just like being able to see everything.

You too, okay. Everything's small and crowded, so I need glass so it feels more open. Also, like, everything's white in my apartment. Not everything, but I tend to really like colors for the same reason. So at Cook's Illustrated, when we did the TV show there, America's Test Kitchen, so at least back then, part of the reason why they used glass bowls is because you can see what's inside them on camera.

But what happens is every year for the TV show, behind the scenes you have to go through all the bowls and find the ones that look nice enough for TV. And 80% of them have chips in them, right? Which means that there's chips of glass. Have you checked all your bowls? There's no chips. There's no chips?

There's no chips. But I do relax. I feel like they work really well. I do have a couple big metal bowls. If I'm stir-frying or something and I have six ingredients to add, and I just have a stack of little metal bowls, but I'll drop them on my walk and then like fling them across, which is to my sink, which is seven steps away.

That's a lot. I mean, nobody should be expecting you to take seven steps. Just put something in the sink. It doesn't work with glass. I've accidentally done it with glass before. Yeah, you can't fling it. Yes, I mean, glass does break, but I don't know. I think like, well, but metal's going to dent.

So it won't be broken, but it'll be annoying in other ways. All right, listen, we all have our things. We're different, okay? My other tip was for storage containers that I use, and I think most people who've worked in restaurants do this also, but I use, yeah, I use like stackable deli. Is it Cambero, are they called or something? Oh, Camberos are the big ones.

Yeah, I use some of those too, but for like regular portion sizes, for like a cup or like a pint or a quart of leftovers, I use deli containers that have lids that fit all three, you know, whatever size you have, the same lid fits, so you don't have to like go digging around. And they also nest and stack really small. Like for me, it's like I want everything to nest and stack very small. Nesting and stacking. Everybody, many people are very triggered by my container storage, but I want the lid on each container and for them to be stacked. I don't nest them

I will not go looking around for a lid. They always end up with like a different number And so I have to everything it's like boxes stacked It's very good for how to how to use up more space in your kitchen if you've got too much I'm like basically doing the opposite of what you're supposed to do. I'm opinionated. I have opinions on loading dishwashers and everything. My actual opinion on loading the dishwasher is that if you have strong opinions on how a dishwasher should be loaded, congratulations, you're the dishwasher loader now. I'm out.

I think it's a beautiful thing for somebody else to do. All right. I'm going to go back and forth between things I'm curious about and things the audience is also curious about. I'll also try and Venn diagram this into things that we're both curious about. Okay. So many Venn diagrams. All right. What is your most frequent meal when the kids are crazy and time is short? I feel like we default to pasta a lot, or we do, but these days I've been really into versions of chicken and rice, where you just kind of like the chicken rice with buttered

onions on the side, but I have like probably 50 other versions of it I haven't published yet. Where you basically just start by browning chicken pieces, and then you might saute some aromatics and vegetables, add the dry rice broth, and then finish cooking them together. I feel like we do that a lot, like over the last few years. You had a recent recipe that's like caramelized onions? Yeah, it was like buttered onions. They're like, oh, that's caramelized.

If you say caramelized, people are like, Kenji says that onions can't be caramelized unless they're 90 minutes. And so these are not. I don't say that. I say you can caramelize them like cold. And it's just, it's your followers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, I'm having dinner on Sunday. I need to start caramelizing the onions today. It's just, it's your followers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like I'm having dinner on Sunday,

I need to start caramelizing the onions today. Yeah, no, it's not gonna happen. So these are a little quicker. For true caramelization. You kinda get them a little bit there, and then you speed it up, you get some color on them. But yeah, so that's just a version. But I feel like we do stuff like that a lot,

and it's nice because you're eating chicken and not another kind of meat. I feel like the leftovers are really good. Do you do vegetable as well? I sometimes put a vegetable in, but my... Depending on what it is... Your family is not... They're not mixers, right? You can't put broccoli in the rice or they freak out?

Oh my God, the time I put broccoli in mac and cheese... You would have thought I like kicked a puppy or something. Like the way... The betrayal they felt. They like mac and cheese and they like broccoli, but when I put it together, I actually ruined ruined both things and so I don't do that So I keep it separate my theory is actually you eat more broccoli outside of it Anyway, like you would probably eat a whole bowl versus just a few flurries that you tuck in there But I'm not the one who put peas in my macaroni and cheese

My kids like peas in most things I like peas in a lot of things. Funny. I'm like, that's just so interesting. Sorry. Peas and macaroni and cheese is normal, right? Really? Well, it's not the first time I've been the odd one. So I would say those are two things that go in heavy rotation. But versions of that, like maybe we're craving like fried rice and I'll do do something with soy sauce, ginger, garlic, scallions and stuff like that. Or we're craving something more burrito-ish and I might do salsa, avocado, black beans, cheese.

So there's a lot of different versions that we make. Right. Do a whole bucket of chicken rice. You're mentioning a lot of ingredients outside your culture here. I didn't say there were authentic versions of any of these things. Do you read your old work? Like your old writing? Yeah. And I'm so sorry I put you guys through that all those years ago.

Okay, so that's part of my question. Do you read it in cringe or do you read it... So are there parts where you read it like, oh, I used to be better at that? And are there parts where you read it like, oh, like I used to be better at that? I have moments of both. And are there parts where you're like, oh my God, I can't believe I wrote that. I was, I used to be a lot funnier, I think. I mean, I don't mean that I used to,

I think you used to be a lot funnier. No, no, no, it's definitely mixed. I mean, I have that same feeling. No, I think there's like a mix of things, but I also think very early on, I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, I know I've made it clear that I still don't, but I especially didn't know, like I felt like I was like,

Writing wise or cooking wise? I didn't know who I was talking it clear that I still don't, but I especially didn't know, like, I felt like I was like- Writing wise or cooking wise? I didn't know who I was talking to, where this was gonna go. I thought it was gonna last six months or a year. Like, I didn't expect it to ever be something that I was still doing now. I might've approached it differently, perhaps like a professional.

But, I was just, so I think there was definitely that sense of it, and I didn't have a sense of like, what a good head note would be either, so I was just talking. What are the things you do now that you think you'll be particularly proud of? When did you start? I started in 2006. So in how many years is it, 17 years?

17, wow, that's crazy, because I actually haven't aged at all. Yeah, I know, so 17 years from now when you're in your mid-30s. What are you going to be proud of that you're doing right now? Oh my god. Hopefully I'll be proud of our podcast. Hopefully I'll be proud of my books.

Hopefully I'll be proud of these recipes and still be using them. I would be happiest if they were useful to other people, because I will probably be on to like 100 recipes from now. I get bored easily. But if other people are still making them, it makes me happy. How about you, Kenji? I don't know.

In 17 years, I want a kid who will play music with me. Aw, that's so sweet. Which I have right now. But in 17 years, they better still be doing it. That's awesome. Yeah, I guess similar. Like, yeah, I think, you know, the nicest feedback is always when people are like, oh, I made your recipe for my family or, you know, I made your recipe for this special person and

it affected my life in this way. And like, that's always nice. Because like that's... Crazy to think of like your little children going off. Your recipe children. Your recipe children. Your children aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Yeah, third of the way to college already.

I know. My son is 14, so I'm like, I actually see it. It's crazy how close it is, because he was just born. And he's still kind of just, I can't make fun of him. That would be really rude. I would tease him, but he's 14. So we're not going to tease 14-year-olds. We don't do that.

Are there any recipes that you wrote that you ended up not publishing because they turned out differently from how you expected them to? Well, I know for you, you always have a bunch of recipes that you're refining and working on, right? But are there any that you just like, I'm not gonna do, like, screw that?

I'm never gonna do a croissant recipe. I've like made croissants, I've made them as perfectly as a beginner croissant maker at home can make them, and there's just no reason for me to do that. But wait, so don't you think there are people at home who'd be curious about how to make a croissant as perfectly as a home baker can make a croissant? And usually that pulls me along

and it gets me to get it out the door, but no, I just don't feel like any of them are, first of all, you're gonna have to make a croissant? And usually that pulls me along and gets me to get it out the door, but no, I just don't feel like any of them are... You know, first of all, you're going to have to make a minimum of 12. And I don't know how big your family is, but they're not good on the second day. So you're either going to eat 12 croissants on the first day, which weren't even great croissants. They're going to be good croissants.

They might even be croissants you're proud of. But I also have a lot of very good bakeries within very few blocks of my apartment. And so it's just really hard to motivate to make a croissant when I could buy a warm one made by some of the best in the city. And was that a recipe you were actively pursuing? I was thinking it was gonna happen. I was like, we're just gonna, we're gonna do this.

I'm gonna cut through the bullshit and try to make it, no, they have to be complicated. That's why they're good. You wanna make a good one, it's gonna have to be complicated. No, they have to be complicated. That's why they're good. You wanna make a good one, it's gonna have to be complicated. Yeah, that's what you find. Like there's some things that it's like, there's no hacking it, right?

Like you just gotta practice it. That's it, I have been working on, just slowly, because I work on it like once a year, which is not very helpful for a publication schedule, but I have been working on a much simpler bagel recipe, and I do make those once in a while, even though there's also no reason for me to make bagels in New York.

Great bagel. Okay, yeah. Have you tried Stella's? No, I haven't. Stella Parks, who was... I thought you were going to ask me if I had pop-up bagels. I'm like, yes, I love them. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, I had pop-up bagels last time I was in New York. I think they are very good.

They're very different from what I expect a bagel to be, but they're also very good. They're very light from what I expect a bagel to be. They're very light. Very light and crusty. I haven't made Stella's recipe. Stella Parks' recipe is great. It's also like a New York bagel recipe by someone who didn't grow up in New York.

In that sense, it's not quite what I expected it to be. So she calls them magic bagels. It starts with the tangzhong, like a cooked roux that you add to the dough to make it, retain moisture a little bit. My forefathers would be like, what are you, I mean, it sounds, I'm sure it would have a great texture

because a lot of what's missing in bagel recipes at home, I think, are it's like that chew? It's the chew, yeah, I guess it's the chew. It's, you know, so I think, well like that chew. It's the chew yeah I guess it's the chew it's it's you know so I think her well her goal was that you know bagels most bagels like if you let them sit for like I don't half an hour they're just not very good anymore right or they're very different like they're very different outside the oven like have even you know within the first go like more than most other breads if you let them if you let them sit outside the oven too much they

they decrease in quality. Cut or uncut? Because I feel like when they're not cut open, they're still pretty good for at least a day. It's when you open them and you expose their innards to the elements of the earth that like... For me, it's not to do with the dryness, it's more the staleness. Like if a bagel is appropriately sort of chewy and dense then by you know Like a couple hours in it's it's it's really dense you can revive it by heating it up again But I don't know all right. We're gonna have to have a bagel episode

I think you can get like a good 20 hours out of a fresh bagel all right. Sorry 20 hours All right, jeez We'll go on these tantoms. I have more questions for you two. We might have different criteria from what makes a good bagel. Do you have, okay, do you have what you believe is an underrated recipe or two in your collection via your blog or your books that you wish got more love? An underrated recipe. Oh my God.

Oh, I always have ones at the top of my head and not right now. It's like the kid that you wish had more friends at school. Oh, stop. I mean, there are things that I love that other people are just not going to. Like I love, I mean, I know some people like celery and fennel, but like most people do not, but I love them enough for all of us, so that's okay. I'm trying to think. I don't know, how about for you, while I ponder that. Do you have like recipes that you feel like never got the love and attention that they

deserved from the public, the adoration? I feel like no, all of my recipes that they deserved from the public, the adoration? I feel like, no, all of my recipes go viral. I'm kinchy. I don't know. I try not to look too much at the numbers, you know? I just mean like a recipe you'll mention, and people will be like, oh, I didn't

know you had a recipe for that. You're like, I do have a recipe. Yes, thank you, I do. I don't know. Yeah, I probably do. I'm bad at thinking had a recipe for that. You're like, I do have a, I guess thank you, I do. I don't know, yeah, I probably do. I just can't, I'm bad at thinking of things on the spot. I know, I'm so bad at thinking of things on the spot. There's definitely some recipes way back in my archives

that I think are fantastic, but they have like, you know, the kind of photos you guys would let me get away with in 2007, and I'm working on, you know, we're working on updates, and so one by one I kind of try to bring those back to life by making them, you know, more're working on updates and so one by one I kind of try to bring those back to life by making them You know more palatable for the eyes than they are currently. I Wanted to so we don't have too much time left. I had a bit

I wanted to ask about like it's a series of rapid-fire questions. Okay, we're ready this I'm calling this segment horizontal or diagonal horizontal or diagonal? Oh! Do you mind if I'm related to the... I have no idea what you're talking about. What Kenji is referencing is, I think it was not this past fall, but the fall before, you know, it was the first cool, crisp day in New York, and I made cream of tomato soup, and I made grilled cheese sandwiches, and I made a little video, you know,

get people excited about it, and at the very end, I take the stack of sandwiches, and I cut them one by one in half, the way I've always cut sandwiches in half. And it set off. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It set off. Which way did you cut them? I cut like a normal, sane person.

I cut grilled cheese sandwiches in half. The short way, like the shortest distance between one side and another is the correct way to cut something because you're trying to keep the insides of the sandwich inside and so a smaller cut. Wow, the comments were, we called it sandwich gate. I have never seen anything like it. It was on like evening news shows, I'm not kidding.

There were articles about it in the Washington Post. The feelings people have about how sandwiches are cut are hilarious. People were like, I was enjoying it so much and then like they were like, I felt like you like ripped my heart out. It was like a screeching sound. Can we do like by volume here, Like who cuts their sandwiches in rectangles? Yes. And who cuts their sandwiches in triangles? Yes. It could just be that triangle cutters are louder.

I would die on this hell, though. Most things, I'm like, you guys are probably right. I really do see your point. I'm like, you guys are just wrong. But the funniest thing, I got the best comments for like a month. Everyone was sending me the funniest notes where they were explaining that actually some sandwiches can

be cut that way. But grilled cheese always has to be on the diagonal. That's the, yes, this is all of you. Grilled cheese has to be on the diagonal. Grilled cheese definitely has to be on a diagonal. So square sandwiches are acceptable if they're cold sandwiches and they're going into like a lunch box. That's what I'm thinking of. You're cutting it so it fits. Or if you're putting it in a bento box where you turn them on their side so the cut side of the filling faces up

and the bento only fits them horizontally. I didn't have a fit. We're not that fancy. So you can expose the filling. Alright, so the bit is called horizontal or diagonal. So I'm going to give you a series of statements. If you agree with the statement, you say horizontal. If you disagree with the statement, you say diagonal. And just as a hint, the answer is always diagonal.

But you can give whatever answer you want, but the answer is always diagonal. There's going to be ten of them. Okay. If you do choose horizontal for any of them, up to three times, you can choose to add a clarifying remark. I don't think we can get through a minute without making a clarifying remark. Otherwise, you just got to go, okay?

Okay. All right. American cheese, the time and place are never and nowhere. Horizontal or diagonal? Diagonal. Good, all right. I love American cheese. Pasta should never ever be served

just with a ladle of sauce on top. Diagonal. Diagonal, okay. Wait, no, horizontal. Horizontal. Horizontal, okay. Alright, do you want to clarify? Or not?

The sauce has to be dispersed. It has to be. It has to be. It's way better. You're missing out. Okay, what about if your four year old asked for it just on top? Tell them they're wrong. Pineapple, never on pizza.

Pineapple, never on pizza. Diagonal. Never on my pizza, but I understand there are people who like it and I respect differences. Oh, I mean, we're assuming you're respecting differences for all these answers. I don't want to. So horizontal. Unless you want to clarify that you don't respect differences on any of them. Sooner or later, we're going to put it with a guess.

So that was a horizontal. That was a horizontal. Okay, so you agree that pineapple should never be on pizza? On my pizza. On your pizza. Okay. Okay. Ever.

Ever. I'm sorry. Sorry if it's true. Your only pineapple pizza recipe is from you and my GMs in the morning. You were just in Vancouver, right? So things that come from Canada, powdered cheese, Kraft Mac and cheese comes from Canada, pineapple on pizza comes from Canada. Really? I always thought it was Hawaiian.

They call it Hawaiian, but it comes from Canada. Don't bring Hawaiian to this. Yeah. All right. Horizontal is powdered cheese, pineapple on pizza is diagonal. Okay. Okay. Ketchup is an acceptable hamburger condiment for folks of all ages, not just children under

eight years old. Horizontal. Horizontal, you agree? Yes. That is acceptable for all? Yes. Okay. Alright.

He's judging me. He's judging me. I don't care. Judge me all you want. I like it. Pancakes are better than waffles. Horizontal, if you agree. Diagonal, if you disagree. Horizontal. Most are, diagonal if you disagree.

Horizontal. Most are. Why do you hate waffles? No, they're harder to get right. They're harder to get reliably right. Okay, okay, fair. So we do, at our house we eat way more pancakes, but waffles are like, so we like once a month or so we do a thing called waffle fort.

I don't know if I mentioned this to you, we do what's called waffle fort, where you make't know if I mentioned this to you. We do what's called Waffle Fort, where you make waffles and build a fort to eat them in. It's on Sunday, just try it. I want to be a kid in Kenji's house. It's not just for kids under eight years old. Oh, you were doing this before you had kids. All right, five more.

Okay, ready? Pasta is not just, sorry, pasta is not a breakfast food. Oh, diagonal. Okay, pasta is a breakfast food. It could be. Absolutely. Fresh peas over frozen. Horizontal.

You would take fresh peas? Over frozen, yeah. Oh really? Okay, I would almost always take frozen peas over fresh. Yeah. Alright. I'm wrong, but that's okay. That's okay.

Maybe you have access to better peas than I generally do. They're so good in the summer from the green market. They're crunchy and complex. They're good like one out of ten times, I think. When you get them, when you get the good ones, they're great, but most of the time they're like starchy and overgrown, I find. Compared to the frozen ones, I don't know. You know next summer I'm going to be eating the peas and be like,

he was right. He was right. Or right now I think you're wrong. Deep dish pizza is a casserole? Oh. Diagonal. Disagree, yeah. Okay, yes, I agree with your disagreement.

It's not a casserole, that's not what a casserole is. I disagree with all these things. It has casserole-like textures, but like, no, it's not a casserole. Drumettes over flats. 100%, yes. That's a huge horizontal for me. You would take drumettes over flats.

I vastly prefer drumettes. More importantly, I'm married to somebody who chooses flats. I'm sorry, I'm asking you to clarify all of these. I do like little drumsticks, they're perfect. I love them. I don't have to do any like mouth gymnastics to get all the meat out. But the wings are juicier. Like the flats are juicier.

The flats have like bits of. They're a little more oily, but there's more inside that isn't flavored enough. More inside, oh, because you think like, you mean the flavored with the buffalo. Yeah. Oh, okay. But the inside is like, it's so much juicier.

It's harder to get certain lazy, it's more work. I want the drumettes. Okay, that's fine, that's fine. We can share a plate of wings. And, okay. Bacon is best when it's a little bit soft and chewy in spots. Diagonal.

Diagonal, you disagree, okay. I think if it's the majority is crisp, if there's some tender parts that's okay. So tender or like still like some parts that are pale pink and like... No, stop it. Stop it, you're going to mess. But some people like it that way right? And they're allowed to. Some people like their bacon chewy? Not here. Not here, okay good. That's why I moved to Seattle. So you can get food. It's a crispy bacon town. I like it really. And that's actually, I actually don't like bacon in things because it'll immediately

lose its crisp. I want bacon crisp. And so I'd rather keep bacon like outside the omelet, outside the quiche, outside. Got it. But are there dishes, so like if you make a, like a cacao van, right, and you have like bacon lardon. Yeah, I'll make it that way. You'll braise the lardon.

But I always feel like it would still be better to like, sometimes I'll pull it out and sprinkle them back in in the end instead. So when I'm crisping up the lardon for a dish where the bacon's gonna go back into the dish at the end and braise, I do often feel like we're wasting the crispness a little bit. Yeah, I feel like we're just like...

And so you have to eat at least half of it before it goes on. It absolutely... It just walks in my kitchen. I'm like, this is not... Sometimes you need the first batch of bacon just so you have enough bacon fat to render the second batch. You always have to round up on bacon. Always have to round up on bacon. Alright, I think it's nine o'clock, which is when I think we're supposed to let everyone out of here. Or are forced to let everyone out of here.

They're going to get the candy. Were there announcements? Are there announcements? Oh, wait, there's a... No, no, that was already announced, right? There's a place where you can get a cocktail named after you or something? Yeah, I didn't know there was a cocktail. Can you guys let me know if it's any good? Deb's going to be there making the cocktails herself. What cocktail should I make? The Kenji.

Oh my God. But there isn't a Kenji cocktail? I don't know. I stopped drinking like a few months ago. Oh, I'm sorry. What, is it a mocktail? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Yeah. I hope it's good. I hope you enjoy it. I don't know. I don't know what it is. I have no idea what it is. Maybe it's good. I hope it's good.

It has to be. Yeah, all right. We're gonna end this with a huh. Thank you. That's a very nice applause. Thank you all for being here. Thank you Deb for coming out here. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you all for being here. Thank you Deb for coming out here. Thank you for inviting me.