The Rest Is Entertainment - Can Tim Davie Save The BBC?

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

Will the BBC exist in ten years time, and is Tim Davie the man to lead it? How did Reece Witherspoon become a billionaire from a book club? And is Death In Paradise more culturally significant than James Bond? Join Richard Osman and Marina Hyde for the latest instalment of The Rest Is Entertainment. Social Media: @therestisentertainment Email: [e-mail] Producers: Neil Fearn + Joey McCarthy Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Recommendations; Richard - Cowboy Carter Marina - Caledonian Road, Andrew O’Hagan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Introducing Tim's new savory pinwheels. The perfect flaky and flavorful snack for those on the go. Like me, who's recording this while snacking. Ooh, delicious. Try the roasted red pepper and Swiss or caramelized onion and parmesan pinwheels only at Tim's. At participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. Hello and welcome to another edition of The Rest is Entertainment with me Marina Hyde. And me Richard Osmond and we're back in the same room as each other now. We are

thank goodness we didn't like our time apart did we? We did not enjoy it at all we're not from that generation. No it's just simply not our chosen way of operating. They can do those things remotely. Now we've got awful lot to talk about today we're going to talk about the future of the BBC quite a chunky subject but there's been all sorts going on this week Tim Davie made a big speech, a panel have been put together to decide the future of the license fee as well. So it's a very, very, very big thing. So we will discuss that.

We will have some light affair as well. Celebrity book clubs. That's light fare. Dakota Johnson, one of our faves, one of the faves of this podcast has just launched one. So we're going to talk about celebrity book clubs and what else? We talked last week about Bond and who's going to be the new Bond. There's actually a much, much bigger role up for grabs which is Ralph Little has just left Death in Paradise which for the last 13 years has been the biggest show on British TV so they're looking for a new

detective to go out to Guadeloupe and that will be seen by more people than will ever see James Bond. So we're going to talk about Death in Paradise. I'm going to drill down into that statistic with you, but okay. I'm sure you'll win, but I would like to. Yes, okay, great. If you think that eight million people a week are watching James Bond, then I wish you all the best. Yeah, but the rep...

Okay, well, we'll get on to it. We'll get on to it. Yeah, let's talk about the future of the BBC. Yeah, okay. We're talking about the future of the BBC because Tim Davie, the director general of the BBC, made a speech last week at the Royal Television Society, which is about the future of the BBC. Yeah, OK. We're talking about the future of the BBC because Tim Davie, the director-end general of the BBC, made a speech last week at the Royal Television Society, which is about the future direction of the BBC and its role for the UK. But by the way, before we go any further in this discussion, I think I have to declare an interest because my husband works for the BBC.

Oh, typical. Which, as you know, Richard, however... Typical London, lefty, lovey. I mean, he didn't back when we met in the mid-Mesozoic period. It's a little bit like Which, as you know, Richard, however... Typical London lefty, lovey... I mean, he didn't back when we met in the mid-Mesozoic period. It's a little bit like Chandler and Friends, where I don't properly know exactly what he does. So you can imagine how much we have to talk about all my jobs.

Is he Pudsey Bear? He's not Pudsey Bear. He is on the board of Children in Need, however. Is he? One of my favourite moments... That's not the main job, though. One of my favourite moments in telly. I never took a photo of it, but was just out the back of the studio in Elstree. We were my favourite moments in Telly, I never took a photo of it, but was just out the back of the studio in Elstree, we were doing the Children in Need pointless I think, and Pudsey Bear head under his arm smoking. I thought, oh man.

Oh that's behind the magic isn't it? You could ruin some charters there couldn't you? Yeah, well you just have. So I, listen, so long as there's no seven year olds listening to this, and if there are, they've got to learn at some point. Yes. The reason Tim Davie has done this talk, it's sort of kicking off the charter process and charter is the constitutional basis for the BBC. It comes up for renewal every 10 years. Now, it's not actually up for renewal until 2027. But what that means

is that you need to have things out there in the marketplace to point to and say, this is why we need this, this is working, this is whatever. So it's important that they take control of the conversation. And I have to say, for someone who's a huge fan and defender and lover of the BBC, this was so great, because for how long have people said, why doesn't the BBC go on the front foot? Why doesn't the BBC say what it's great at? Why doesn't the BBC actually defend statistically lots of the kind of distortions and complete misrepresentations about how people feel about the BBC, chiefly among them that it's polarizing. We'll come to that it's the absolute

opposite of polarizing shortly. Pretty good to see him out there and saying this is what we're about and this is why we matter and this is why we matter more than ever. We're not in an anachronism. It's going to be a fascinating time as you say in three years time they're going to work out you know it's possible they'll get rid of the license fee altogether and the BBC will be um utterly unrecognizable the government have put together a group of the great and good to talk about that including my my old boss Sir Peter Bazalgette that's in play this idea that there'll be no more license fee and obviously that's been a huge thing over the last few years we talked about channel Channel 4 being under threat, but the BBC has really, really been under threat.

I mean, from the left, from the right, everybody hates the BBC publicly. What they have to do... Except they don't, which we'll again come to. Almost impossible to have an organisation that is more trusted. There's an issue at the heart of this, which is we pay a tax for the BBC, okay? And so everyone is allowed to have an opinion on it, and also everyone's allowed to object because they don't want to pay a tax for something they don't like or something that doesn't represent their values.

So that's always been the issue and that tax is the license fee. Certainly if the Tories had stayed in for another five years, I suspect it would have disappeared. I think let's assume Labour get back in. So it's safer. But listen, the BBC is not going to last forever. Certainly not in its current form. My most senior friends in television said just pick a number out of the air, how long has the BBC as we know it now got left? And then I

got three years, five years, seven years. I think that's nonsense. Sorry. We are not going to have the BBC as we know it now, which is, oh, we sit down and watch these linear television channels. And we got Bargain Hunt on and then we got Pointless on and then we got The One Show on. You know, that cannot last. That dam cannot hold. But it's interesting that even now it reaches 99% of people in this country on a monthly basis and 90% on a weekly basis. That is extraordinary. Oh, it's huge. I've always felt uncomfortable talking about the BBC because for the last sort of 10-15 years publicly I've sort of been paid by them.

And you know, you're always asked to sign letters supporting the BBC and this kind of stuff and there's very few things that I would sign letters for and that's one of them but I would never have done it because of course I want the BBC to succeed I'm being paid by them so that you it's what I think about it has been meaningless. I do almost nothing for the BBC now I do House of Games and that's it and obviously I do lots of other things I feel like I'm more in a position to talk about it. When we were running Endemol for many, many years, we were obviously operating in lots of different television territories in America, in Germany, Australia, everywhere around the world.

And I felt that the infrastructure, the production infrastructure and the television infrastructure in Britain was healthier than anywhere else in the world. It was the single best television infrastructure anywhere. If you think British TV is bad, this is the best you're going to get anywhere in the world. It was the single best television infrastructure anywhere. If you think British TV is bad, this is the best you're going to get anywhere in the world. And I thought one of the main reasons for that was the BBC and the way that BBC was funded and the things that BBC had to do and what that meant for the other channels as well because there's absolutely no doubt that... Yeah, how it affects the wider market is such a crucial part of what it is and a part that's

often misunderstood by people. Exactly, and one of the reasons that Sky News is so good is because of BBC News. One of the reasons that ITV drama is so good is because of BBC Drama. One of the reasons that Channel 4 make the programs they do is because of the BBC. When people couldn't compete for funding, they competed for quality. That has been a really fantastic thing about our market. I think exactly that. It can't last because not enough young people are going to be watching linear television

and not going to be watching the things that we know the BBC is being. So what Tim Davey has to do, and what I think he's rather good at doing, is saying, look, it's still very important creatively and culturally that we have a levy in this country that pays for something that belongs to us all, that pays for culture that belongs to us all. The universality. That's one of the three big planks of his speech was universality, the others were creativity and impartiality. I'm not going to get into news because it's not my area. Oh my god, I look forward to that so much.

In terms of the world of entertainment, listen, you would not, starting from scratch, invent the BBC now and say we're going to tax everyone £170 a year to have a television service. You just wouldn't do it. It wouldn't happen, which is why in lots of countries it doesn't happen. But this is what we have. I think we're enormously, enormously lucky to have it is the truth. It's under huge threat because there's so many things that could sweep it away. I think that it's going to require enormous skill from Tim Davey to shepherd the BBC through and to get another licence fee and to make the BBC relevant in the media landscape that's to come. But quite apart

from asking these TV people how long they thought it would last, I said, well, do you think Tim Davey is the guy to shepherd this through? And every single one of them said absolutely unequivocally yes. He is politically very astute. He is creatively, he just employs good people and leaves them alone. Because he understands in the next three years when this topic is raging, he wants to have some hits on his channel.

He wants to make sure that you're sitting at home with your children watching Gladiators and they absolutely love it. He wants to make sure he's got great drama. He wants to make sure that he's still got seven, eight million people watching stuff because it makes every single other thing he does easier. It's interesting, they got 21 out of 30 RTS awards this week.

You know genuinely they've got 30% less money than they had 10 years ago. I take the unfashionable view that the BBC used to have too much money but you can't say that out loud too much in television but I believe that to be the case. I think there used to be an awful lot of wastage at the BBC. There is certainly not now, that's for sure. It's about the most cost- effective place you can make television. I mean, you know, they are really not overpaying for anything. What do you think, what they get for it? Because in terms of the total viewing of the BBC,

British people spend more time with the BBC than with all the other streamers combined. And we think of the cost of everything on those platforms put together. I mean, to say it dwarfs the licence fee settlement is ridiculous. And also, by the way, the streamers are not making, are making an incredibly small amount of programs and an incredibly narrow amount of programs and not having to do any of the stuff that the BBC is having to do. So, so to have done what they've done,

I remember about 12 years ago, something like that, the BBC called lots of us in, in the James Purnell era, people from radio, people from, you people from entertainment, people from drama, and said we need to talk about the future of the BBC, we need better PR, we need people to be out there fighting for us. So could you go around the table and say what the BBC means to you? And the entire thing was someone from Radio 6 saying, I think Radio 6 is the most important thing about the BBC because new bands are important, and drama going, I Radio 6 is the most important thing about the BBC because new bands are important. And Drama going, I think Drama is the most important thing for the BBC.

And like the Saturday night go, I think big prime time entertainment is the most important thing. Just every single person just saying that their bit of the BBC was the most important bit. It's so easy to imagine a world in which the BBC literally disappears in the next three years, five years, seven years, which is not, by the way, what these people are saying. This thing is just going to look different. But the BBC could just disappear. If it was badly run now, it could just go. It is a more positive time for it, because as we've talked before about being under threat forever by the government,

which is the case with Channel 4, it is a really bad environment to try and do the things you're best at in. It's not to say that a Labour government wouldn't cause problems for the BBC. Certainly, the Blair government was often complete loggerheads with the BBC. To not actually be in the permanent crouch position every single day, it would be quite interesting to see what it can do. And I do think in terms of news, that is one of the really amazing things. If you look at the US, look at their news market, it's so polarized. There is trust and distrust. It's really polarized for individual organizations. So, you know, some people will only trust Fox News. Some people will only trust, I don't know, The New York Times, but everything.

All of those things are utterly polarized. And there is no single news organization in the United States that I think nothing gets more than like 25% of like it's frequently consumed okay of the population that is really small. Our market is so much better, much more trusted across the board by the way even though there are polarizing titles the Daily Mail might be a polarizing title, The Guardian is a polarizing title but they are not so far polls apart. 60% of people frequently consume BBC News in this country. 60%. It is so far out the other end of the scale compared to all the other things, all the other titles and many other newspaper titles, who by the way are lined up against it every day and

distort the idea that actually people really don't trust it and it's really polarizing. It's not polarizing. 60% of people frequently consume it. That there is nothing like that in the world. And your point earlier about, well, maybe you wouldn't come up with it. My God, I mean, you would want to come up with it right now in a world that is increasingly polarized, increasingly atomized. 70% of the world doesn't even have a free press. My God, if you could create this thing. And yet it's absolutely mad that has been attacked for so long, because we've got three sort of big exports that we do really well and we're renowned for in this country financial services weapons and media and creative

industries you know no shade on the other two industries no shade on the old arms dealers no shade on the weapons industry from us we are listen if you if you want to advertise yeah listen bae systems Raytheon call us up hit us up I would say that as a piece of soft power, been in the most extraordinary backwaters in the middle of nowhere and people said, oh, we listen to BBC, no, because we don't have good media in our country. And it is incredible, the reach. And to attack something with that soft power when, let's face it, we're doing not brilliantly in a load of other areas as a country, seems to me absolutely crazy. One specific issue is this, I get it if you are right wing and you understand that, and

I get it if you're right wing and you don't think taxation should pay for a media company. Absolutely 100% allowed to think that, you can argue that all day long. Stop funding the world service as a government is genuine vandalism, genuinely dangerous, makes the world a worse place. They know that that's not the right thing to do. Tory government wants to get rid of the BBC, I get it. You're allowed to think I completely disagree with you, I think it's crazy, but I get it. But they knew that defunding the World Service was making Britain a less safe, less prosperous place. They did it because they wanted to annoy the BBC. Genuinely, it was ideological.

They knew it would hurt the BBC, and they were cutting off their nose to spite their face. That's what you're up against, I think. The World Service, I think, is the one thing that really shows the true colours of the opposition to the BBC. I mean, nobody thinks it's a good idea to stop funding the World Service.

There's no one sitting in a room thinking, I tell you what, they'll make this world a safer, happier place, let to stop funding the world service. There's no one sitting in a room thinking, I tell you what, they'll make this world a safer, happier place. Let's stop funding the world service. I mean, it's nonsensical. I do think you look at America and you look at that market and why on earth would you wish to emulate that news media market?

It is, we've seen where it leads. It leads to people, it led to people crawling all over the Capitol, having been the lies that led them there being stoked by Rupert Murdoch. So every time I'm reading in the Times or wherever it is or The Sun, another check on the BBC, then I'm thinking, well, who's going to take care of it? Are you?

Because you're not. We've seen what you've done. Yeah, I think it's that. And listen, Tim Davey is smart enough to understand that the licence fee is a tricky thing and he needs to put things in place to make it more affordable for people who need it to be more affordable. Obviously, if you don't consume any BBC products at all, then you don't have to pay it. I do think it's one of those weird things. Capitalism doesn't like something that doesn't follow the market and the BBC doesn't follow

the market. It's a shelter from the market. It is the most extraordinarily weird edifice this country has created and has created it by the way because we're such a smart country and creatively we're brilliant and we're super kind and all of those things. That's why the BBC exists, like why the NHS exists. And we work at it, punching above our weight. I think as I, you know, I do feel I can take my gloves off now and so I've never felt able

to stick up for it. From a business perspective, from running a big, big, big, multi-billion dollar company that works in every country in the world, my God, we have got the best media in the world. Huge problems everywhere. Of course there are. We have got the best television system in the world and the BBC is just about the best media organisation you could ever find. And if you think it isn't, then I'm afraid that I just don't think people know enough about the markets in the other countries or about the lack of free press or anything. And it is a pretty nice assumption to have that it's awful and polarizing because let me tell you, it is not.

It's changed an awful lot as well, the BBC. I do think you go there now and it understands. I think there was an era in the BBC, certainly 90s is when I first came across it, but before then, when they didn't really appreciate they were being paid for by taxpayers. That actually £170 is nothing to most people in this country. And so there's a responsibility to spend that money incredibly wisely. I can't think of an organization that understands that more now, that really gets every single penny that is spent is coming from people. And Tim Davie understands that BBC Studios has to get bigger and bigger and bigger and you've got to find new ways of making money. You know Doctor Who is now being co-produced by Disney.

So in the future there are other ways that you're going to have to pay for BBC products and BBC can make money. But the heart of it has to be that license fee and as I say this panel of the great and good who are about to start talking about it. A lot of very savvy business people in there, someone from the Foreign and Commonwealth office in there as well. I think it's gonna be hard for them to sit down and talk about the BBC and not understand what it is and how important it is and how unique it is in our ecosystem. I can be told I'm a left-wing lovey, all I like, all I know is from someone who ran a business, makes such a lot of money for Britain and makes the world a safer and better place.

And also top 10 websites in the UK, only one, the BBC, is British. Otherwise it's all Silicon Valley or TikTok or whatever it is. So work out what you want and whether it's worth protecting. I find it absolutely extraordinary that they might not. Yeah, because if we get rid of the license fee, then maybe Musk will buy the BBC.

So that's it. Oh yeah, well. It's one or the other. I think the television ecosystem is get rid of the license fee, then maybe Musk will buy the BBC. So that's it. Oh yeah, well. It's one or the other. I think the television ecosystem is better because of the BBC. I think its competitors and rivals are in a better industry because of the BBC. I think the same is true with radio. We've got an incredibly healthy radio sector with big, big companies. But because we're a country that understands great radio and a lot of that is because of

the BBC, I think the same is true with podcasts. I think the same is true with pretty much any media, that we are a better culture because of the BBC and the people who are running commercial enterprises I think are making more profits because we have this weird little tax thing in the middle of our culture. No, I think you're right. All the most popular programmes in the UK are on the public service broadcasters and most of them the majority from the BBC. You may not believe that if you read to read many of the enemies of the BBC in the newspapers and beyond, but that is the case.

Listen, it's going to be tricky for Tim Davie, that's for sure, because, you know, it's hard to keep running the size of this organisation on the money that he currently has. That's for sure. It's hard, of course, to keep running that organisation with the political issues about it. But I think he's done genuinely, I think you do have to give people credit where it's due. He's done a pretty amazing job over the last five years in terms of the creativity of the BBC and in fighting off the government. But the next three years are absolutely crucial. In 2027, the futurists decided they could just get rid of the license fee. He's smart enough, he's got enough smart people around him that we can stave it off, but it's not unhelpful

if people make it known how much the BBC is valued. And with that, I think we shall go into a break. Different funding models for different organizations and if ours is based on advertising, yeah, I get it. Then let's hear some. No, I get it. Then let's hear some. Welcome back everybody. We are now going to talk about celebrity book clubs because podcast fave, Dakota Johnson has launched her own new book club, which is most of these things are done via Instagram now and as sort of recommendations.

She says our book club is literary fiction. It's not beach reads. It's not silly. But she joins, obviously there was Oprah, the mother of them all who had Oprah's. She's been doing it since 1996. It's actually relatively, she's only done 104 books since 1996. So that's lazy. People say that about her actually. Notoriously. And it all used to be on TV. And Wichita and Judy had one that for a while was a huge market mover. But now it's mostly on Instagram. Reese Witherspoon had a mega one. Yeah, hers is super huge.

Yes, it's interesting that because the big question you want to ask is, is this good for books? By and large, the answer is no, not particularly. I would say it's almost entirely book neutral. Definitely good for the people running the book clubs. Yeah. That's for sure. You know, whether it's just in terms of pure branding that suddenly they look smarter because they read books.

Well, I think that is a big part of why they are doing it. A lot of these and it's extraordinary. It is almost exclusive. In fact, it is as far as I can work out. Exclusively women who are doing them, you know, Dua Lipa, Emma Roberts, Emma Watson, Florence Welch, oh my goodness, because Kaia Gerber got one, we'll come to the ones who are just pictured with books. It used to be done on television, these things, and people would,

and Oprah's was obviously a television segment, but now exists as a sort of online thing. Oprah's really shifted books back in the day, which is the crucial thing. And there was a funny episode, do you remember Jonathan Franzen, the novelist, was really annoyed that his novel, The Corrections, had been picked as Oprah's book club thing and said, oh no, I don't want to be because she picks really schmaltzy things and whatever. It's like, oh right, you don't, because sometimes she would sell them an extra sort of five million books. I was going to say, he sold five million copies of the Corrections off the back of that. So I think he changed his tune. But he never did again.

You'll not ever sell five million copies of any of your books ever again, I don't think, because everything has changed. Yeah, that was a really sort of snobby snooty thing. I talked a bit about this before, almost with the authorship thing, the celebrity authors. It's an extension of the brand. Like, I'm an intellectual in that same way that suddenly wearing much more edgy fashion on the red carpet You can see that someone's maybe got new representation and they're being tried They're being sort of made to look like a slightly different type of persona

So people think oh I see you could get smarter women roles or whatever it is And I think with some of these people which I probably won't go into specifics of who some of these people have done that Gives them an intellect and a heft and a just something. It makes them seem like a different type of persona than perhaps the one they started out with. Yeah, and I don't mind it, by the way, because listen, anything that gets books out there is great. And if we're teaching a generation of kids that it's cool to read books, then that's fantastic as well.

But yeah, as you say, back in the olden days, Oprah, Richard and Judy would shift a lot of books. I mean, a lot of books and being on the Richard and Judy list was a huge deal. Amanda Ross used to run that and, you know, would pick the books and now does between the covers. So it used to shift a lot back when we were quite monocultural. If something was on TV, we all saw it. So these new ones do not really shift books.

If you are on one of these things, your book might sort of go up the charts the next day or the next week, that will be it really. So it's blips. It's the truth. It's blips. The people it's really, really good for are the people running them. So Reese Witherspoon, and Fair Plater actually, it's a very clever business model that she had this book club, she would buy the rights for the book. She would buy the sort of TV film rights. It's part of her production company, Hello Sunshine.

She would then tell everyone to read those books. People would, they would be hits. She was then able to make those films. She sold Hello Sunshine for $900 million. Quite a lot of people have got quite a lot of views about that particular price, but let's just say Reese got the top of the market. Yes, I think she really did. Well, you really got the best possible price there. And again, listen, I think Dakota Johnson says I'd rather be doing this and talking about face serums. So, you know, I sort of get it if you're going to make 900 million. She can talk at length about face serums. So, you know, what can't she do? She

can do it all, can't she? Yeah. But yeah, now it's far more, you know, branding for the actual book clubs. You know, there's a lot of, I think Kendall Jenner has got some, a book concierge. I read this, she's got a book concierge, someone who sources the type of books with which this particular, you know, Kardashian sign or Kendall Jenner should be photographed with. Yeah, they call it, they call it grammable literature. But that's to me what Kendall Jenner's books are, if you're sort of lying in there on your tummy. Kaia Gerber as well, Cindy Crawford's girl, books are, if you're sort of lying in there on your tummy, Kaya Gerber as well, Cindy Crawford's girl, she's photographing books slightly in that way. And you know, and there's also people who will tell you what to put on your shelves on Instagram as well, who will stock your shelves for you. So in the back of whatever shot you're in,

it looks like you've got very good taste in books. God, that was the whole pandemic, wasn't it? Just pausing screens so you could see, like, you know, how many books, what books they had on their behind their shell. I'm terrible listen I go through I go through right move sometimes just because it's fun and sometimes I zoom in on the shelves just to see if they got my books I mean is that might be the worst I'm speechless ever admitted to but you can't you can't help it after a while anytime you watch a tv show and there's a bookshelf you always look always anytime the tv show and there's you know you can there's a bookshelf, you always look, always. Anytime there's a TV show and there's a bookshop, you always have a little look as well. If you're listening to this, just listening.

I'm absolutely a gog. My drawer is on the floor. That's brilliant. I love knowing that. I am not interested, by the way, in buying a house, but I love to look at, write me. By the way, you know, people say the smell of freshly baked bread. If you're trying to sell your house to Richard, can you make sure that you have all the first editions of all the Thursday Murder Club?

Yeah, that's a really good idea. Yeah, just displayed prominently. What this? I've just casually left it on a coffee table, but yeah, sure. Okay, I'll buy your house. You can tell whether something works in terms of whether the publishers, the agents and the authors are really chasing it. And no one's particularly chasing these book clubs. Even now, Richard and Judy's one still goes and still does well and they do it in conjunction with W.H. Smith's. Better to be part of it than not part of it, but you're not suddenly going to sell a million copies like Alice Seybold did with The Lovely Bones. That was a big one for Oprah, wasn't it? That world has gone. The fascinating thing is the only thing that really,

really sells books like Oprah and Richard and Judy used to, is book talk. You know, these influencers on TikTok and they are all ordinary human beings. No one is buying books because celebrities tell them to, whereas everyone is buying books because non-celebrities tell them to. Which, I mean, that feels like maybe it's a good thing for us culturally. Yes, the democratisation is much better. Kim Kardashian and Chrissy Teigen were going to do one and they even announced they were doing a book club. And then they literally never did anything about it. Quite a lot of people who actually start normal book clubs never did anything about it.

And then when someone finally asked them about it in an interview, one of them just said, no, we were too lazy. So you don't even have to do it yourself, love. But if you say to someone, you should watch Ozark, it's really easy, it's an hour. I mean, a book is a lot. you have to really want to read it. And especially if they've deliberately chosen some slightly obscure intellectual book just to look good. You know, it's quite hard to get through the first five pages or so. So it's quite a big ask to tell someone to read a book.

The only times it really works for me on TV, if ever I mention a book which I know people will love the idea of, and they'll read the first two pages of and keep reading, then that book does well. So I've talked about A Month in the Country and various things, and it goes to number one on the Amazon chart. Again, only for a couple of days, but it's better than not. And on an episode of Pointless Once, I mentioned Simon Garfield's incredible book, The Wrestling, which is like an oral history of British 70s, 80s wrestling and it's absolutely extraordinary. And that went to number one because I knew that enough people go, that sounds like the best book I've ever heard of and go and buy it. But you know, if you just say, oh, it's

a book about, you know, love and loss in, you know, 1930s Missouri, everyone's like, what was that thing? And five minutes later, they forget. If people cannot click on something in the 30 seconds after you tweeted about it or Instagrammed about it, they are not going to click on it. You know, people always say, oh, could you tweet about this TV show at something four days time? You go, no. You tweet about it 25 seconds before it comes on air. Osmond's theory of click through. I like it and believe it. Yes, it's very credible. And with bookshops, one of the best things is bookshop.org, which is essentially all the independent bookshops teaming up

to sort of take on Amazon. Because people will buy books, they'll hear about a book, they will click and buy it immediately. And the default has always been Amazon. Now bookshop.org, you can do exactly the same thing, but the money goes to local bookshops in your area. Yeah, I think celebrity book clubs are good for the celebrity.

They're certainly, I think, perfectly acceptable for our culture. But it's TikTok is where people actually sell copies of books. That's where books come from nowhere and suddenly sell a million copies now. You know, and we've talked before about lots of the books that have done that and lots and lots of examples of it. But they're not a single example, I say, in the last 10 years of that happening from a celebrity book club. The other fascinating thing is Netflix adaptations don't really sell any more books,

unless it's a book that people have already heard of. So one day, the Netflix adaptation, that book goes right up to the top of the charts because people have already heard of it. You get something like You, which is a huge hit on Netflix and brilliant books. It makes no difference to sales whatsoever. It just doesn't. It doesn't push anyone in that direction. So the whole of the publishing industry is desperately trying to work out to sales whatsoever. It just doesn't, it doesn't push anyone in that direction. So the whole of the publishing industry

is desperately trying to work out what is it that we have to do to get millions of people to buy our books? And so far the only answer is TikTok. And TikTok is a sort of slightly incorruptible in rather a good way. TikTokers like what they like. And so the whole book industry is like,

oh, I used to love it when we could just get Richard and Judy to choose our book and we could sell a million books and then go for lunch. You know, it's a tough industry. But the good news is, is more and more books are being bought and being sold. More and more people are advertising them and talking about them. But it's hard to have that massive breakout hit that Oprah or Richard and Judy used to give you. OK, Richard, talk to me about Death in Paradise. Oh, Death in Paradise. Now, Death in Paradise. Death in Paradise.

Now, Death in Paradise has been going 13 years. It's been getting between seven and 10 million every single episode for that entire time. Explain it please. Can we say that it is a Sunday evening BBC show, which is a sort of murder that is solved within one hour, which is part of the killer formula, sorry for the pun. It is set in a fictional place called Samary, which is in basically Gu killer formula. Sorry for the pun. It is set in a fictional place called Samarie

Which is in basically Guadalupe passes for it And it's had a number of detectives have had to go out there British detectives who either don't like the weather or rather stuffy They're all sort of a bit, you know, they've got a poke out their arse. They're all fish out of water Yeah, they're fish out of water. And that water happens to be the beautiful Caribbean Yeah, it airs at a freezing cold time of year in the UK and it is, as you say, the biggest show on TV. It's a phenomenon. The ratings are huge.

It's sold to 230. It says 230 countries. I don't think there are 230 countries. So maybe 230 territories, let's say. But either way, it's pretty much the whole world has watched this show. And as you say, so Ralph Little has just decided to leave. We've had four detectives so far, which is what we in the business call an only connect because it means it can be a question.

We have Ben Miller, then Chris Marshall, then Arlo Hanlon, then Ralph Little. Certain, you know, DNA, I would say, shared between them. And it's just one of those shows that go slightly unnoticed, but does such Unbelievable business for the BBC some people it's one of those real things You know the critics don't like it or write about it or their fuss snooty about it And actually I think even some people within the BBC is snooty about it But the new chairman is it's it's his favorite show great

That's like a lot of people like a murder that can be solved in an hour. That story of the week formula, obviously there are ongoing plot lines, but it's a big bowl of macaroni cheese, isn't it? Nigella's got a thing that she always says that it's sometimes just eating a bowl of one thing. Not like lots of different things on a plate, but a big bowl of one thing is the most comforting thing you can do. And I think it is a big bowl of one thing. one thing. It's funny I was talking to Belinda Campbell who's the exec producer and there's Red Planet who make it and she said oh you

would not have believed the first reviews of this show you know we were just sitting there as that's awful but round about series 10 like the broadsheet started going oh this is actually a decent show because here's the truth about Teddy people don't watch rubbish yeah you know there's loads of shows that are like Death in Paradise. I'm sorry, if they buy your paper, if they buy your broadsheet, they probably watch that show. Yeah, exactly. It's the same market.

For the sort of show it is, it's the best one. You know, that's the thing. And the origin of it is interesting. Robert Thurragud, who writes it, he's a terrific writer, he's a novelist as well. He's done a couple of radio things, but nothing. And he is absolutely out of money. And his wife said, look, all the best ideas are in the paper. And he read the story about Bob Walmer, the cricket coach in 2007,

he died in the Caribbean, and he just read that they'd sent a Met Detective out to investigate his death. And he went, oh, well, that's... They thought it was murder for a bit. Yeah, exactly. And that was his start point. You think, oh went, oh well that's... They thought it was murder for a bit. Yeah, exactly. And that was, you know, his start point. You think, oh, I can imagine that, you know, he's wearing the wrong clothes and what have

you. So he had this like untitled Caribbean detective show for ages. He said, I took it everywhere. And they all said, we don't know who you are. The broadcasters won't know who you are. And also it'd be really, really expensive because it's set in the Caribbean. And you know, it was like, Caribbean. And then it was Tony Jordan. Tony Jordan, he used to, he used to, was one of the big brains behind EastEnders and did Life on Mars. And he got a break in TV because

someone gave him a lucky break, funded a competition for scripts and Robert Thurrogate sent something in, not this, but Tony Jordan liked his scripts and I'll meet up with you. And he said, Oh, I've got this thing about a detective in the Caribbean and Tony Jordan went, done. Okay, we're gonna sell that. And Robert Thurgood goes, yeah, but no one knows who I am. And Tony Jordan goes, I don't care. So that absolutely doesn't matter. So Tony Jordan's the first hero of this story. And then Ben Stevenson, who I think was the head of BBC Drama at the time, and now he's got his own indie and is brilliant. He read a script and said, well, this is amazing. And Robert Thurogh is thinking, yeah, but I haven't done anything.

So, you know, but Ben Stephen says, I didn't even look into whether you've done it. I couldn't care less about whether you've done anything. I love this idea. I love this script. And then Polly Hill, who's now head of drama at ITV, was just on Mr. Bates' list of the post office. Robert Thurogh said just before it was all ready to go, he said, he said, she gave one note. He said, and it transformed it all. And she just said, could it be a bit more fun? And he went, of course, but of course, actually, yes, it could be a bit more fun. And so, you know, that was the genesis of the whole thing. And, you know, he'd never done anything before.

The BBC couldn't fund the whole thing because of where it's set. But French TV had gotten in touch and said, we'd like to shadow one of your productions to work out how you make big drama. They were saying, well, we've got this thing, and if you would like to come in on it. And then they came to Robert Thurigate and said, would you mind moving it from St. Lucia to Guadeloupe? Because there's enormous French tax advantages there. And he was like, yeah, I think that's okay.

I think we can do that. And suddenly this show is born, and it makes the BBC a fortune. There's spinoffs Beyond Paradise with Chris Marshall. But they thought they couldn't get over Ben Miller leaving at the time which is really interesting I mean because you do I tell you this is the one rather like James Bond Richard you hear a lot about the toll of this role. Everyone's thinking I quite fancy that job going out and filming in Guadeloupe but because they make so many episodes of it they are

out there for a big big part of the year and I mean I'm told there are quite a lot of mosquitoes and there's some stuff about being away from your families or whatever, but it does seem to everyone else like Paradise, but you do hear a lot about the total of the roles. So when Ben Miller left, I think that was quite a drama, but then they realized that they could revitalize it and that has been brilliant. It is. It is I think exactly that you know most people think Ralph Lisser is actually the longest-serving detective out there they tend to do about three series and move on because it's hard with family and

stuff like that and you are out there for a very very long time. By the way the guest stars love it. The guest stars you go out and they've had amazing people guest starring on it because it's like yeah do you want to go out and sort of be murdered or be a murderer you know two weeks in Godly yes please exactly it's like it's the dream for actors to head out and and do that and you can see as well you can see how much they're enjoying it yeah but it's an amazing production generally how they make it's incredible to come up with those mysteries each week funnily enough Robert Thurigaba was saying the same thing he went oh my god this is so hard yeah and I can bet because it's locked for mysteries by and large,

and you know, you can't cheat the audience. You know, it's hard to do that week after week after week after week to do a mystery that clears up. They've done a lot of twists on those old formulas. And the resourcefulness is incredible because it really has gone on a while now. I just think it was worth talking about because it's one of those shows that it be easy to dismiss, be easy if you've never seen it. To go actually it's made with love by very talented people, it was come up with by a very very smart man, it's run by very smart people. I'm also just

fascinated with who's going to be the next detective. I know they're doing an Australian version which has got their first ever female detective, so you know, I know Diane Morgan's name I saw was in the frame. I was about to say Diane Morgan's in the frame and I'm already putting all my eggs in the Diane Morgan basket, please. Absolutely. I can't see her doing three years on Guadalupe. I would like her to make a supporting documentary as Philomena, discussing her three years on Guadalupe. But I think I have the perfect casting for it, which is Jim Howick from Ghosts.

How great would he be? That is a terrific one. Okay, we'll stick him in the mix. Yeah, stick him in the mix. But it's a great show. It's a proper success story. It's one of those shows that I think sometimes doesn't always get the credit it deserves, but it's a monster. And by the way, the streamers, all they want now really is big mainstream. Every single thing they're calling for is can we have big mainstream stuff with people that people recognize in it? So the world of television is coming towards death in paradise rather than the other way around which I which I think is fascinating Well now you've told me about all its territories Richard

I now believe that you're right it probably is bigger than Bond although an Extraordinary number of people in this world claim to have watched at least one James Bond film. There was some amazing statistic not that long ago saying that half the planet had seen a James Bond film, which was pretty good. 46% of Americans said that they watched almost all of them. Yeah, I still think though that something that's getting 8 million people watching a week is culturally more important than James Bond. That's my view. Even though, you know, they're not going to have exhibitions of the posters of Death in Paradise or, you know, big exhibitions of the cars or the weapons.

But I still think this is a bigger gig for a young actor. I think if I was Aaron Taylor-Johnson and I was offered both, I think, come on, let's head out to Guadalupe for a couple of years. Oh my God, I'm sorry, I can't get on board with that one. No, I'm not getting on board with that one. You don't have to go to the gym, Aaron, you wouldn't have to do any of that stuff.

There's no need for steroids on, not that I'm suggesting Erin Taylor-Jones has taken it, but you know, it is the toll of the roll. The toll of the bond roll is significant. Yeah, but yeah, but no mosquitoes. So yeah, I thought it was worth discussing and also given we started talking about the BBC, and this feels like a big BBC success story as well, that it's, it's, you don't have to watch it if you don't want to, but if someone tells you they do watch it, maybe that's okay. Yeah, we don't have to describe it as polarizing.

Yes, exactly. Recommendations? I've got a mega recommendation, which is that book I told you I was looking forward to at the start of the year, Caledonian Road by Andrew Hagan. It is out on Thursday. It is absolutely brilliant. It is a State of the Nation novel. Don't let that put you off because the nation's in quite a state and someone had to do it. It is very funny. It is sprawling. It's Dickensian. It's very moral. It's very intellectual. It is a terrific, terrific, but I cannot recommend it enough. And you said you say it's set in Guadeloupe and

and someone is murdered. It isn't, but you know what a wonderful thing for a sequel. It's set in contemporary London and it's absolutely terrific. I'm just going to recommend the new Beyoncé album Cowboy Carter, which is everything you love about Beyoncé plus everything you love about country and western, amazing guest stars as well. And it's just a joy from start to finish. We talked about a lot didn't we today? We did, we covered an awful lot. I hope we weren't too strident on that BBC stuff. I hope it comes across that we actually care and it's important to us but it's certainly something that for the next few years if you do care it's something we need to keep an eye on I think. Absolutely.

Well please join us again for our questions and answers edition on, oh my gosh I got it right. Questions and answers suddenly. Wow such progress. On Thursday. Yes so thanks for our Questions and Answers edition on... Oh my gosh, I got it right for once. Questions and Answers suddenly, is it? Wow, such progress. On Thursday. Yes, so thanks for joining us and we'll see you on Thursday. See you on Thursday.