The Rest Is Entertainment - Marina Explains The Beckham Family Feud

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

What's lurking behind the scenes of the Beckham family feud that's generating tabloid headlines? Has slasher producer Eli Roth created a new way to finance his horror flicks? Why aren't people allowed to go to the bathroom during the BAFTAs? Marina Hyde and Richard Osman unravel the world of the Beckhams, and the growing split between Brooklyn and the rest of his family. Horror royalty Eli Roth has created a unique way to finance future film. Will it reshape the film industry as he hopes, and what is the grisliest way to be killed on camera? Richard, was at the BAFTAs on Sunday evening. Whilst he didn’t bring back an award, he did bring back secrets of what happens at awards shows as a nominee. The Rest Is Entertainment AAA Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to our Q&A episodes, ad-free listening, access to our exclusive newsletter archive, discount book prices on selected titles with our partners at Coles, early ticket access to future live events, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestisentertainment.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestisentertainment. The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Visit Sky.com to find out more For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Assistant Producer: Aaliyah AkudeVideo Editor: Kieron Leslie, Charlie Rodwell, Harry Swan Producer: Joey McCarthySenior Producer: Neil FearnHead of Content: Tom WhiterExec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by our friends at Sky. And when we say friends, we mean friends with excellent taste in television. Absolutely. And diving into my never ending TV list is so seamless. Sky does all the hard work for me by bringing whatever I want to watch across all my apps and channels into one place. Now, let's not forget the blockbuster shows they bring us, Gangs of London, Day of the Jackal. All the different apps all in one place. I like to say effortless input, exceptional output. Do you like that? Love it.

They keep us entertained and give us plenty to talk about. They do, and let's be honest, we love a good chat. We do, Marina, and that's why I love voice search. It's like having your very own TV assistant just say what you're in the mood for and boom. I've just got into the habit of saying, Glenn Powell into my remote and Sky will pull up everything he's in. It's like magic.

Yeah, if I know Sky in a few years, Glenn Powell will literally walk into your room. So be really careful what you say. If you know Glenn Powell, he will. Yeah. For now, stick to Telly Discover More at Sky.com. When does fast grocery delivery through Instacart matter most? When your famous grainy mustard potato salad isn't so famous without the grainy mustard, when the barbecue's lit but there's nothing to grill, when the in-laws decide that, actually, they will stay for dinner. Instacart has all your groceries covered this summer, so download the app and get delivery

in as fast as 60 minutes. Plus enjoy zero dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees exclusions and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over deliver. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment with me Marina Hight. And me Richard Osmond. Hello Marina. Hello Richard, how are you? I'm alright, I'm quite hungover because we record this on a Monday, that's not a spoiler, and I was at the BAFTAs last night. Spo spoiler alert, did not win. I'm better than when Phil and Holly turned up for this morning,

still in their tuxes. But yeah, I felt better. I felt, I don't even have that shiny BAFTA to make my head feel better. And they're certainly more authentic Bonomy in the studio than there was perhaps that morning after the NTAs was Phil and Holly. I hear you, Ingrid did say, just go in your tux and pretend you've been up all night. Well speaking of authenticity or otherwise we are going to talk about the Beckham family feud, a big story that's going on about the sort of supposed feud which I think is definitely real between the Beckham family and Brooklyn Beckham and his wife Nicola Pelts. So that's-

Oh my god that is that could not be more up your street. The first 10 minutes or so of the podcast I can sit back I can just sit there and just go come on tell me tell me everything. Revive. We're then going to talk about the the horror director Eli Roth who's got a brand new way of financing films which I think is very very interesting. I think it's a new way in this world where it's very hard to finance anything at all. He's got a brand new way of doing it, which I think is interesting. And bringing up the rare will be those BAFTAs, Richard, won't they, while we discuss your experience? Well, I mean, I watched it, what it all sort of meant. Yes, but mainly what it's like to be at one of those scenes, a little bit of backstage

gossip and all that kind of stuff. And what the mood is in British television. I would say by the end of the evening, fairly drunk. And also the very, very early soundings of what happened on Celebrity Traitors, which is just finished. There will be no spoilers, I guarantee you that. But the team are back, some of the celebs are back as well. And so just I'm going to tell you the mood music that I found. I can't wait. Okay, I'll have to. Shall we start with our friend, David Beckham and friend of the podcast, Brooklyn? Yes, we shall. Okay, this story is the story of a sort of fallout between

Brooklyn Beckham and his wife Nicola Pelts and the bigger Beckham family. And it seems to be quite a terrible fallout. It all seems to be true. Despite being in the UK last week, they didn't attend any of David Beckham's three or four 50th birthday parties as far as I can work out. Oh really? Brooklyn and Nicola? Yes. I'll tell you why I'm interested in. I'm interested in for two reasons. The first is that Beckham's as a brand are always interesting and their brand is enormously predicated on the idea of them as a family. And they sort of invented the idea of modern celebrity as it exists in this

country for us and how they've created it, how they've adapted it, how long they continue to want to have that brand even after it is absolutely not financially necessary to them at all and how they continue to sort of live their life out loud in lots of different ways. And the second reason I'm interested in it is because I think it's sort of emblematic, this whole story of a complete shift in celebrity journalism, how we cover celebrities that has sort of taken place since the advent of Instagram. And the evolution of celebrity journalism and I suppose what you could even now call celebrity citizen journalism, us and ordinary people getting involved and having takes on whatever it may be. I think it's really interesting

that absolutely none of this story, which is played out in huge numbers of articles every single day currently in the tabloids and on news websites, none of that came from what we would have traditionally recognized as sort of old style journalism, maybe a tip off from someone in the inner circle, maybe whatever it is. Maybe going through someone's bin. Maybe going through someone's phone. What we call the good old days. What we call shoe leather stuff, okay. Now so much entertainment journalism now comes from watching who is or isn't tagged in Instagram posts, who doesn't like certain posts, who doesn't feature in pictures. Now remember these are pictures that a certain

type of celebrity, about which the Beckhams are kind of probably top of the tree of that type, post religiously because they have become drawn to the upside financial brand image-wise of living out loud. So filtering all these moments through these platforms, it allows ordinary people, just anyone who can follow the people, to speculate and to make connections. Almost like everyone's got a constant yarn wall of different things on there, you know, alleging they didn't link to that, they didn't do that, this is it's all a sort of big conspiracy. And it's a form of sort of mass Kremlinology really and there are whole sites... Finally we're talking about mass Kremlinology. Yeah, but it is in a way, isn't it?

There's these whole sites kind Finally we're talking about mass grammatology. Yeah, but it is in a way, isn't it? These whole sites are kind of dedicated to working out what tiny little changes in a celebrity's digital imprint mean, why they've happened. And that is to me a complete cultural shift in not much more than a decade. Effectively, any one ordinary can be an Instagram sleuth and see, ah, you know, Romeo didn't tag that person or why didn't that person wish Victoria happy Mother's Day? It feels like a sort of like the 19th century society balls and stuff all over again, which

is how interesting you turned up but you're wearing a white handkerchief. Or it's very interesting that the Duchess Dowager wasn't invited to dinner, she was just invited to tea. She wore violets which symbolised X or, you know know why didn't they take the quadrille together? And so what you have is you have a whole army of internet sleuths that include ordinary journalists and ordinary people who are looking to see these tiny little changes and in this case seem to have surfaced a story that is completely true. One of the big things in our culture is, because it's become so image-obsessed because of these

platforms in so many ways I think is people thinking they are being sold a lie and that's one of the real, it's like one of the sort of prevalent trends I think. Yeah, it's the great crime. Yeah, it's the great crime of our age. Yes, you're making false representations. Now the Beckhams themselves have been making representations as it were right since the very start. Their rise is so symbiotically linked with the real rise of OK magazine when it became a huge deal. Now that is nothing now in the same way as it once was. But at the time these print weeklies Hello and OK, it was the upstart

owned by Richard Desmond and they had the Beckhams OK. Now Richard Desmond in his book talks about going round to Victoria's parents every Friday night, and they would literally drink champagne and decide what they can cop for the next exclusive. And they had everything, you know, they had the story of the engagement, they had the story that she was pregnant with Brooklyn. This is a child, by the way, who now may or may not be speaking to them. The first pictures after the birth, the wedding, they sold every single thing, the Beckhams. What's your value judgment on that? Because we come from a generation that we would just say, oh god, that's so tacky, that's so gauche. But is it?

Well, I think it is. Yes, because I've never had an Instagram or a Facebook account because I'm actually mind about that. But I'm suddenly alone. If you did, it would blow everyone wants to see your bookshelves. Everyone wants to see your klutzy removal guide, Pete. Yeah, they probably, come on. But the Beckhams really did believe in all that. And then it's interesting, they evolved past that. They became sort of too big for OK Magazine and they probably did think it was tacky. And then once they come back under the sort of aegis of Simon Fuller, who understands image rights and all sorts of things like that, and they go to America, he commodifies them in a different way. And it becomes a much more sort of much more lucrative, but

huge image rights deals and huge kind of licensing deals and all sorts of things. And you can see how they've evolved. And then you can see how eventually we get to David's position of his sort of self commissioned documentary, which was a huge success, as we know for Netflix. And Victoria is doing her own one because of that. Yes, I will more on that later. Watching how they've behaved on these platforms and you see Victoria will post a picture maybe on their boat in Miami and it will be a picture of their daughter Harper and it will say kisses to you Harper seven or whatever. And you think, why don't you just turn to her and say that instead of filtering it all the way up through Mark Zuckerberg satellites?

Because the answer is, it's because it's part of the brand. By the way, can I tell you, I just love this. I don't look at any celebrities' Instagrams. I genuinely don't. So this is all new information to me and will be for lots of people listening as well. I absolutely love it. That's crazy when you've got that much money as well. Are they just locked into this loop?

I think they do remain sort of funny and authentic and that's why it continues to work Okay, however, they are ruthless brand managers and I do think that commodifying and you know to some extent you would say the children have already been sort of pre commodified right from the stories of You know their first pictures all the way through. There are other sort of strands to this, which I would say that this type of journalism or this type of story is so driven by sites like, well there's not really another site like it, but something like Tatl Life, which is absolutely huge. I don't know if you know about Tatl Life. I know about it. I don't spend a lot of time on it.

Tatl Life is essentially a collection of threads where people talk about people in the public eye and basically tear them down. But it's very interesting. This is how the site formally describes itself. A commentary website on public business social media accounts. And what actually that appears as is sort of obsessive threads about celebrities. The essential thing that people are always saying on Tatelife is this celebrity is not who they say they are.

And obsessive amounts of content are drawn together from seeing what they've liked or piecing together their social media and saying, well, this narrative doesn't make sense because you said something different in here. She said this, she said that. She must have moved. I've noticed different things in the kitchen now. I mean, really extraordinary, as I say, it is a form of criminology. Stories like the Brooklyn Beckham and Nicola Peltz and the Weider Beckham family feud are sort of surfaced by these sites. Now, either traditional journalism has started

mimicking these sites because it is such a sort of good pipeline of people who have a lot more hours in the day to sit there and work out all these things. Or maybe these sites are influenced by a form of kind of tear-you-down journalism that existed long before that, which we know existed. But what we do know is that other forms of entertainment journalism to a large extent have disappeared and given way to this. And is that just because lots of forms of journalism have disappeared or it's just a much easier way of doing the same thing? Well you don't have to go anywhere, do you? I mean, people used to be out,

when I first started in journalism, people used to be out on jobs all the time. I was the secretary on the Sun show business, and people were constantly out. And then after a while, it became seeing if someone had said something outrageous on Twitter. In 1994, this woman who was an ordinary woman, she was an early adopter of kind of internet forums, chat rooms, things like that, online participant in online communities. She was

called Carmen Hermosillo, but she went by the name of humdog on a lot of, as her little handle on platforms. She published an essay called Pandora's Vox on community in cyberspace. The central premise of this essay was that what people thought about the internet and computer networks in general was that they would lead to a reduction in hierarchy and it would lead to a great sort of leveling out. But in fact, this is, bear in mind in 1994, this is 30 years ago she's writing this, she said what in fact had happened as a result of computer networks is that people had commodified their personalities and have surrendered power and information to corporations who owned these networks. Isn't that incredible

to see that in 1994? And she said, I've seen many people spill their guts online and I did so myself until at last I began to see that I had commodified myself. And she's talking about whoever owned the little internet board she was posting on. So, I mean, she says that means I sold my soul like a tennis shoe and I derived no profit from the sale of my soul. It's also interesting that, you know, coming into the bit of culture where your soul is available for everybody to see if you've got any sort of online imprint. Actually, if you are a Beckham or someone like that, the idea that you just go, look, I mean, we're going to be written about anyway, we're going to be commented on anyway, there's going to be

photos of us anyway. Why not just make them all ours? Why not control that narrative entirely? Why not be the people who are commodifying ourselves? And I do think it must be very, very tiring, but the alternative will be tiring anyway. And they want to make money and that's okay. And only one's own sort of story and one's own narrative seems to be quite a smart thing to do. The trouble is when something like this happens, the Brooklyn thing where you go, this is one, in the same way that the Royal Family can't control Harry and Meghan, and that's where the problem is. They've always been able to, you know, people sort of tuck back into the fold one way or another.

But it came from openness. It came from that documentary that she did right back in The Royal Family, The Queen. It came from a form of opening up and a form of transparency. Transparency will get you in the end. Yeah. What Carmen Especillo said was that cyberspace absorbs energy and personality and then it represents it, a spectacle, it represented a spectacle. And most people lurk in cyberspace. They don't really kind really fully participate, but the ones that are most noisy, she saw at the time, were the ones who are most pleased with themselves. People thought that the internet would be a place where they were free to express their individuality,

but actually it's so much of it has become a place now, if you have any kind of public profile, where it's about truth in packaging, people become incredibly angry about this and incredibly dedicated to exposing what they believe is some form of kind of vague image fraud. We lie to each other all the time, we present a public face of ourselves which is subtly different to our private face. I mean that's the world we live in and it seems incomprehensible to a generation of online commentators who are taking personal offence that that might be the case whilst also by the way telling us very very little about themselves and who they are. Everyone, when you go into a new room full of new people you become a slightly different version of yourself. The people you love know you, that's the only important

thing but any public facing thing has to be mediated. I agree with you. Nietzsche, first time on the podcast, I believe. I don't think it is the first time. Is it not? No, I think it won't be the first time. That appearance and reality have become the same. Whereas someone like Baudrillard, again, that is his first time on the podcast. He believed that there is such a thing as the truth beneath, the true thing beneath, but that people had come to prefer the lie, the appearance. Nature versus nature. I don't think that people quite prefer the appearance here. The sheer volume of stories

that are being published about this thing right now, this Beckham thing, is only matched by sort of Meghan and Harry stories. So Beckham's 50, is he? I'm willing to believe that. Tell me the story. I don't know the story particularly. What is the feud? Needless to say he has he has lots of different celebrations for his 50th birthday Oh my god, you know what, I turned 50 during lockdown It was just a joy because I didn't have to have a party and they were going to come but they've got a problem with Romeo's girlfriend or maybe they haven't or and anyway, it's become a Romeo's girlfriend. So Brooklyn's got a problem with Romeo's girlfriend.

Yes, I think the pair of them have they don't have a lot of time for Nicola, Brooklyn's wife, and she doesn't seem to have a lot of time for them. Who knows the ins and outs of it all, but she's a billionaire heir. Yes. Yes. Nelson Peltz is a sort of big sort of financial figure. He's the activist investor. We've spoken about him before. Yeah. Former Wendy's owner. I read this thing the other day, because he's got his hot sauce now. Brooklyn's got a hot sauce company. And there was something about the father-in-law saying, also has experience in the condiment area.

It's like, oh, I see he owned Hellmann's, and he owned like about 100 different, yeah. He owned Hines, okay, right. But we had a significant shareholding in Hines or something. It's like, yeah, no, it's not the same. What's interesting now, I suppose, going forward, is that a brand that they have so carefully curated around their family, the biggest threat on it was the accusations of infidelity against David Beckham, which

they have to address in that Beckham documentary that we've already seen, as you remember. And actually, I think they even rigged one of the headlines, so it said something different. So they could show a few headlines, they obliquely discussed this was a really difficult time, but they didn't really go into the depth because they obviously didn't want to it's really interesting to see a Victoria we know is doing this documentary and there will be a time when it's expected to come out and there will be a whole sort of structure around this thing and the point of Victoria as a sort of brand entity in the same way that, you know, is that she's a fantastic businesswoman, but she's a mother. And the difficulty is, if this remains a live thing then you can't really, unless she decides to speak completely candidly about it, which I sort of feel like she won't, someone who's supposedly always been totally open about

their family and pushed their family forward and whatever is left in a bind because this is another self-commissioned documentary, executive producer David Beckham. So it makes those sorts of things very difficult because the brands are so intertwined. To me that's why that story is interesting. It's interesting when you've so foregrounded your own family and made it such an important part of your financial brand and continue to co-opt your children all the time in the kind of curation of that brand. And it's also interesting from that sort of totally new style of citizen entertainment journalism, which is all just

trying to see these tiny little shifts in people's digital imprint. And it's if you can't you can't imagine entertainment journalism now without Instagram. It's impossible to imagine there would be no stories. It's impossible to imagine. There would be no stories. Everyone would have to learn how to go and get different stories all over again. It's fascinating, isn't it? Because everyone here will be thinking about their own families, and there's always rifts in families and all these sorts of things.

And if you take the biggest argument your family ever had, the biggest fallout that was ever had in your extended family, and imagine that playing out across the front pages of the newspapers for weeks on end it would be weird for everybody. So the Becker, I mean there's I'm sure there is some sort of feud between them but I mean when isn't there in a family but if you commodify your family and if you commodify how happy your family is over many many many years and make a lot of money out of it suddenly suddenly those views become slightly more difficult to contain. Where's Cruz in all this?

I don't think he's a huge fan of Nicola. Really? No. Hey listen, he's got a you know, 29 year old girlfriend. Isn't he? Yeah, he's out there. How old is Harper? 13, 14. Oh okay, that's like the sort of age I thought she would be. If you'd said to me she's 35,

I'd be like, oh no, really? She can legally get her own Instagram account now? So yeah for people who haven't followed it at all you don't need to follow it we've told you everything and for people who do follow it yeah I think there's some rather fun insight there. Listen it's going to be great for the podcast over the next few years I'll say that. Is it good for the podcast? This is the chief question we ask of any single entertainment story. Does it actually help the podcast? I'm morally indifferent to it. Just tell me, is it a numbers boost? Thank you so much, Marina. Shall we go to some adverts?

Let's do that. And afterwards, we're going to talk about Eli Roth and we're going to talk about the BAFTAs, which I lost. This episode is brought to you by Sky, where you can watch the brand new series of the award winning, A Last of Us. So we've both been watching the new season, which once more does not hold back. If we thought the first series was dark and had twists and turns, I'd say this one's darkerer and more twisty turnover. I think that's correct. The infected are obviously terrifying, but the real danger arguably now comes from the living, Richard. The first season for people who watch

that in a year to watch the second season, you know exactly what you're gonna expect here, but this time, I would say there are even more rug pulls and even more extraordinary moments where you go, okay, I didn't see that coming. Beneath the horror, I suppose it's about the fragile ties that bind people together. So grief, revenge, love, the price of survival, which is fairly high.

Now the new characters, Abby and Dina, they have taken it off in a whole different direction, which is as you would expect. And without giving anything away for those yet to watch, it does just keep delivering those moments where you think, what? I can't believe they just did that. Watch the brand new season of the award-winning The Lost of Us available now on Sky.

I'm David McCloskey, former CIA analyst turned spy novelist. the last of us, Edward Snowden and how he orchestrated the biggest leak of classified secrets in modern American history. It was 2011 when Snowden shocked the world by revealing that the American government was balk collecting data on its own citizens and even spying on our allies. And it's a story which really also gets to wider questions about what privacy means in the modern world, how technology has changed our lives, and what the government and companies can do with data we might have thought was private. We will take you through the whole story from Snowden's early career in the CIA and the NSA to his life in exile in Russia. If this sounds good, we've left a clip at the end of the episode for you.

Hi, this is Cathy Kay from The Rest Is Politics US. And this is Anthony Scaramucci. I've spent over two decades reporting from Washington. Presidents, while they come and go, the chaos, that never changes. And I've been inside the eye of the storm, 11 wild days in Trump's White House. I have seen how the sausage gets made and who's holding the knife. Yeah, that's not a nice image.

But on the rest is politics, U.S. We break down the stories that are behind the headlines and we actually look at what they mean to America and the rest of the world as well. We're not just talking politics, we're talking about power. We've got both of us, access, experience, and just enough cynicism to know when something smells a little off and how to trace it back to the source. No spin, no filter, reporting the stories you won't hear anywhere else.

If you want smart analysis, global context, and a front row seat to the world's loudest democracy, this is the show. It's from two people that have ringside seats, occasionally center stage, in a country where court cases and campaign rallies share the same parking lot. The rest is politics, US. New episodes every week. Welcome back everybody. Now, Eli Roth, who is the wunderkind horror director

behind things like Cabin Fever, which I think he made for $1.5 million, made $35 million. We talk a lot about these low budget horror films being one of the last things that Hollywood does very, very well. And one of the last very, very profitable things it does. And Eli Roth is probably the master of those things. He made Hostel as well. He made that for $4 million, took $80 million at the box office. And this will age it $180 million in DVD sales as well. So this is a business, I would say,

that you wanna get involved with. You wanna get involved with the Eli Roth business. He made Hostel 2, which actually made less money, but that's what Eli Roth says. Hostel 2 was the most pirated movie of all time. Somebody leaked a copy of it, and it was like downloaded over a million times in the first day.

He said, two days after this film came out you could go to any street market in Rio de Janeiro or Mexico City or Nanjing and you could buy my movie for a dollar. He said and it's still made a load but anyway it's a huge business horror. There's lots of money to be made in it and Hollywood are starting to put lots of their money behind it. You look at Heretic with Hugh Grant, which, you know, award nominated, made a lot of money, substance, a lot of money. Eli Roth has always been quite interesting about the way he funds things. His first movie was entirely self-funded and he has, we're all aware of Kickstarter, so we're all aware of what that is and Patreon and all these things. He's set up a company called the Horror Section and the horror section.

He said, this is where all my IP is going to live. It's where my movies are going to live. There'll be comics, there'll be live events, everything horror based. There will be podcasts. Exactly. Uh, the rest is cabin fever. So he set this thing up, uh, the horror section and he's done a Kickstarter to put some money into it.

It's actually a site called Republic isn't it? A site called Republic, yeah I use the word Kickstarter as the thing that we understand. The mover, meaning the vacuum cleaner, but it's actually, yeah, but it's crowdfunding. It's a crowdfunding thing on the Republic, he wants to raise five million dollars and in return for that you actually own a piece of his company. You become what every executive producer in the world is, which you're somebody who puts money into something and share in the upside of a movie.

You become a part owner of the IP of the character, which by the way in horror means a lot because if you look at how many iterations there are of each successful franchise, actually owning a bit of the IP and owning the, I think it's coming very soon, the next Final Destination, which is I think the sixth of that. And as I say, there's something like, I think there's a, I won't say 30 plus horror movies slated for theatrical release this

year, maybe even more. And Final Destination is one and they've just had another one, The Clown in the Corn. Clown in the Corn? Oh my God, that's the scariest title of all time. That was this weekend, that cost less than a million. First weekend out, 3.9 million. It's a good business, I would say. And listen, who knows if this thing will work. But it's a new way of doing things. And Eli Roth has understood, in the same way when we talked about biblical epics and using the Christian church money to make movies and make TV shows,

he has understood this is an incredibly engaged audience who wants horror fans. Horror fans are like the second most engaged and obsessive community outside of evangelical Christians. Which is weird right? It's a hard take. Listen, I think it's a great take. But you can print that. Do you know what? Two sides of the same coin, isn't it? Well now. Well now. Good and evil, but which is which? So you can yourself invest in the horror section. There's 42 days left on this thing is trying to raise 5 million. I think they've got 2.8 million so far. Something like 1700 people have already put in. It feels like it seems very open. It seems very transparent. A lot of people, Robert

Rodriguez, who did Dawn of the Dead and films like that, he's doing a similar thing, but you own the IP in a particular project. But this Eli Roth thing is the horror section. You will own a part of that company, you'll own part of the upside. You own parts of directing fees that he would get, exec producer fees that he would get. You get some fun perks. He's bundling the stuff he already owns into the company.

So it will own the IP to Hostel and to Cabin Fever and these things that can obviously be kind of spun off into extra movies, into games games into all sorts of things The perks are amazing. Normally if you if you like crowd fund a book or something and you get your name in the back of the book That's nice. There's lots of smaller perks. The best perk is that this will cost you a million dollars If you if you put in a million dollars, which feels to me like that's old-school Hollywood But anyway, I think this is just a headline thing to get people interested in a million dollars, which feels to me like that's old school Hollywood, but anyway, I think this is just a headline thing to get people interested. For a million dollars, he said, he's going to kill you on screen.

And he said, I will give you a death that for the rest of your life, everyone will be like, that's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. Wow. A million dollars to have the most disgusting death in horror history. The one thing he said, he said most people want their head chopped off so that they can keep the false head afterwards and put it on their desk. That's lovely. Isn't that nice? That is a lovely touch. And lovely, lovely little things. If you put in $666, you put in 666, you get your share certificate and it's got a bloody handprint on it. Real blood, real handprint.

Because again, rather like Angel Studios funding sort of Christian movies or whatever, the fan base is very engaged. You know, they say they know what the fans want. And I think, you know, they're right. As we keep saying, Hollywood is not making movies that people want to see. And they do turn out when you make movies that people want to see. Something like that is happening at the moment with Sinners. That is a sort of huge phenomenon. And you think, oh well,

I mean, perhaps if you made more movies that people actually wanted, then maybe more people go. But he wants to make unrated films, which he says, the studios won't let you do that, you know, I want to be really fully disgusting. And that's what the fans want. So we're, I'm going to be able to do that this way, because I'm not going to have to take all the notes off the studio and not do what, you you know I can do whatever I want. And you know he is making the points and this happened in television with rate when people went to streamers suddenly ratings became less important. He is saying I do not care about the box office take of these movies that will look after itself. What I care about is the share price because that's what you're buying.

Yeah, you're not you know, you are literally becoming an owner of this company. And if we have projects that do good business, the share price will go up. And that's all I care about. And your money will go up. And it feels listen, he's interesting talking about it, isn't he? So he's very charismatic. He's also an inglorious bastards. If you want to see him as an actor, that's probably his most famous role. He is a charismatic person. And he seems mischievous and sort of disruptive in a way that sort of horror is anyway, But I do think that point you're making at the start is so interesting in terms of the mental profitability of the genre. The big films last year, like, Pterrifier 3 was the most profitable movie of the year last year. That's another horrible

clown movie. It made 45 times its budget. Now compare that to the top film in the box office of last year, Inside Out 2, that made 10 times its budget but without marketing, so maybe it's five. Second biggest of the year, Deadpool and Wolverine, six times its budget but again without marketing. Now as you say, Eli Ross catalogue where these films make absolute multiple, many, many multiples of their budget as Clown in a cornfield did last weekend and his final destination clown in a cornfield is brilliant Isn't it's like it's all up there in a title. So cats in a cradle. Yeah, and as final destination will it's so it's kind of completely Profitable almost without exception if it's well done. It's interesting though. You talked about Kickstarter and said, this isn't, as we say, this is on Republic

and it's a different thing, but Kickstarter themselves have got much more into indie funding. They've got ahead of film funding now. They've got some, that's someone's position at the company is to do these kind of outreach things. And they want to bring premium indie, not just people saying, well, I wanna do my student film and I need you to kick in so we've all got some money here.

They actually want to have a slate of things that they have financed. And they're really quite ambitious about it. Taylor Shaw, who's the woman who they've got into be the sort of head of film outreach. I listened to an interview with her and it's, they're very ambitious about this. That people are constantly now, as you see, trying to circumvent the old systems, which obviously aren't working in lots of different ways, but people feel they have new ideas that can work. I genuinely think, and I do think obviously, film production money has,

films are costing more and more at the moment, but there's got to come an inflection point where films start costing less and less and less. I mean, we all understand the technology train that is coming, and we all understand that that means that making content is going to become an awful lot cheaper quite soon. Nobody in Hollywood seems to be facing that fact. And horror always understood that.

Horror always understood it, but I think it means that there are good times ahead for people who want to make interesting content. We constantly get told, and it's absolutely right, that the lowest common denominator always attracts the funding. We absolutely get it. So superhero movies, things like that, things that can reach a very, and it's absolutely right, that the lowest common denominator always attracts the funding. We absolutely get it. So superhero movies, things like that, things that can reach a very, very big audience. Things that also make money are things with a rabid fan base.

And the lovely thing with a rabid fan base is they will invest in something if they understand it's authentic and they understand that it's gonna be good. And they understand it's a risk, of course they do, but it is something they would be excited to get into. You know, they can, we've talked something they would be excited to get into. You know, they can, we've talked about this with games testing as well, you know, they

can then become evangelists for these things before they come out. It feels like a great business model. It'd be lovely if, for example, in the world of British comedy, which has a great reputation worldwide, has a lot of fans worldwide, it feels like something maybe that certain high profile British comic actors could get involved with. it has a lot of fans worldwide, it feels like something maybe that certain high profile British comic actors could get involved with. I just think in the next five years, an awful lot of people listening to this will become film investors somewhere in something. In the same way, you know, when you can own like one 30 second of a racehorse and people go

into a syndicate, you know, you can put up a bit of money and you know you're not going to make a huge amount, but you can go to a movie and just go, I'm one of the producers of this movie. Which is people investing in films to make money as opposed to somehow hide their tax evasion would be a great idea. I'm really, I'm hugely proud. It's interesting, Eli Roth first, he said, I first had this idea, again, it's probably nonsense but he's a good salesperson.

He said he was on the Howard Stern show and Howard Stern at the end said, you know, if this guy was a stock, I'd buy him. He said, I've always thought about it. And I thought, you know, what if I was a stock? What if you could buy me? And the news is you can. So it's republic.com. You can go on. Please, please, please for the love of God, don't take investment advice from us. But look at if you are a huge horror fan, if you love Eli Roth and you look at the terms and conditions and there's stuff in there that interests you, you can go to Republic.com 41 days left, you can become an investor in the horror section. But I do think over the next few years, the more you talk to creatives and creators these days, and I talked to a few people at the BAFTAs

last night, the more people are working out that you can either be funded by one rich person or one rich organization or you can be funded by a thousand fans and actually the thousand fans might be more useful to you than that one big corporation. Yeah, thousand very engaged consumers. I was just thinking that apprentice movie, the Donald Trump movie, when they had all sorts of distribution problems, in fact they couldn't get a distributor. They got the money to get a distributor via Kickstarter. They weren't funded via Kickstarter, but when they ran into problems,

they managed to completely solve it and they got it distributed. And, you know, they were of the various awards and it all worked out. And those people, of course, all see the movie and tell lots, many, many other people about the movie. Listen, it's a bit of fun, I think, I don't think it's going to make you a millionaire, but if you love entertainment, if you love film, if you love content, then there are going to be ways coming up that you can become a part of it. I don't know if the big studios did this if I would invest in the next Marvel movie, who knows? Well that's because people don't feel that they choose for them. There's a sort of animus

against the big studios because they feel that they're not necessarily making movies for them and every time they do occasionally coalesce in terms of interest then people turn out and see it. That's an animus sidebar for you. Yeah animus sidebar. Now Richard. The BAFTAs. The BAFTAs. Yeah so listen I'll get your take on because I didn't obviously I didn't see the TV thing of it go out. Lucky you. because I didn't obviously I didn't see the TV thing of it go out. I was there on the day. Just so I thought it might be interesting to talk through what a day at the BAFTAs is like and then

we can talk about the winners and losers and what it meant about British TV and what have you. So it's the Royal Festival Hall, you turn up at like 2 30, it was blazing hot and there's an amazing, first person I bump into Danny Dyer with his he's he's got the mustache so you know you know they're starting filming right next week I think today they start how exciting is that yeah so he's absolutely tashed up and he was up for Mr Big Stuff and I said Danny you've won millions of these so he goes I never won one I never won a BAFTA I said no way and he did later on so I was very happy with that I said to him I've never won one either and didn't go my way and he did later on, so I was very happy with that. I said to him, I've never won one either, and didn't go my way. And he did a very entertaining speech as well.

What's your streak now on House of Games? I'm going to tell you about a very impressive streak later. My amazing exec producer Tamara Gilder, who's got one of the all-time great L-streaks in nominee history. So you turn up there, it's blazing hot, and you're essentially, when you get dropped, there's like a red carpet thing, so all the press photographers and all the kind of radio stations and things know where you are. It's like you're at the airport and you're in a queue with all the kind of things either side of you, except like Toby Jones is in front of you and Anton Decker behind you. But everyone's very, you know. That always happens to me at the airport.

Yes, exactly. That's what airport are we at now? So everyone walks through that. There's always, you always have to do like 15 million bits of social content now and they just go, oh, would you do social content for the, what do you do BAFTA socials? You go, yeah. Okay, would you do BAFTA youth socials? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, would you do BAFTA social socials? You go, is that different to BAFTA socials? Yeah, of course it's different to BAFTA. It's BAFTA social social. What do you do BAFTA TikTok? Is that, I'm so sorry, just is that different to BAFTA socials? Anyways, and lovely Tom Allen and Susie Waffle were doing the interview. So, you know, you go through and you do all of that and you you queue up for a really, really long time. It's the

only time I ever see celebrities queue and not complain. Cause not, cause the thing, if you're a presenter or something like that, your food is bought to you. Like everything is like, make sure the talent's okay. Make sure the talent's not waiting for a single second for a car or for some food.

And then this, I think, cause everyone in the queue is famous, they're like, oh, I should probably, I should probably queue up to have my photo taken. Then you have your photo taken by about 15 people. Then there's this amazing kind of tunnel, which I avoided because I'm too self-conscious, which I thought you were maybe exceeded the maximum. I exceeded my, I would be ducking down. I'm sorry. This is like a lorry that gets the top taken. Yeah, exactly. One of those bussy thing. Yeah, guys, guys, you know, your bus is too big for that. It literally says it, don't drive down there.

Anyway, I digress. There's a sort of select group of people who are allowed on the red carpet, like members of the public. And in return for allowing them, they have to get excited about every single person who walks past them. And their job, whenever the people walk past, is to shout that person's name as loudly as they can. Ego fluffer.

And try and get exactly and by the way they get makeup they have all sorts of things this group of people. So I think it's a fun gig because there's lots of fun celebrities there but you know if you walk down there they all shout Richard Richard and there's because that's the job that's what they've been asked to do and so literally I find that the most mortifying thing in the world so I went like behind all the cameras cameras, I nearly tripped over a camera while I went around the other way. So you go in and then you're like, oh God. The first person I bumped into is Jonathan Price, who is really classy. He's saying this is pretty good. And he's

in the Thursday Murder Club movie. So we sat and chatted and I've got to chat to him about some, then Gary Glen Ross, my favorite movie of all time. So it's lovely that you get the opportunity to do that sort of thing. And then you're ushered in and the Royal Festival Hall is for like 2000 people. And you imagine just getting that, you know, like in any, if like you're a teacher or something

and trying to get everyone to sit down, it's a nightmare. Imagine trying to get everyone to sit down and they are all celebrities who are used to being the last person to sit down in any room they ever go to. Every single person there is going, no, no, I'll sit down the last possible minute. That's what I'm used to. And the poor floor managers and stage managers getting everyone in. But it's BAFTA, I have to say, it's unbelievably well put together. That day you then sit there in the auditorium

and I think it was three and a half hours. You have no idea when your category is being read out and of course you can't go to the toilet just before yours is about to be read out. And ours, I think we're about the fourth from the end. So I'm like three hours, 15 minutes into this thing. Wow. It was very hot. Medically hours, 15 minutes into this thing. Wow. It was very hot.

Medically speaking, that's the danger zone. We had drunk a lot of water. Honestly, I was thinking the only reason now I want to win is so I can go to the toilet. Are they not giving you champagne? Beforehand, yeah. Yes. They sort of bring it, but you have to,

you are aware you're gonna be sitting down for three and a half hours and, you know, with people who you worked with 30 years ago. So it's probably better to go in sober if you can. Yeah, it's really, really long. I'm not sure how they can make it shorter because they weren't mucking about. No, no, no, they do chop through it

and there's things that have gone, that sort of investigative documentaries or whatever, things like that have gone off the- There were two musical interludes, Tom Grennan and Jessie J, who were both unbelievable, I wasn't 100% sure. Were they on telly? Yeah. Were they? I couldn't quite work out what that had to do with anything, but it is a bit of fun. Other than when your category hasn't been done, you're like, I'm still sitting here and this is great, but you could have

pre-recorded this bit because we want to get to best daytime. And then best daytime comes up which is our category, right towards the end. And everyone in the audience... They should have a quiz category can I just say? Yeah, well listen... Sorry, quizzes are performing better than anything and there are how many of them? They should have a quiz category rather than lumping it in with daytime. But anyway, please, sorry, I'm interrupting you.

We were up against... No, please. We were up against, no please, we were up against Loose Women and Morning Live and Clive Myrie's Caribbean Adventure. That's ridiculous. And all good shows, but yeah, it's an unusual category to be in. So we turn up there, and listen, I say this with genuine truth in my heart,

it does not matter. Like it could not matter less if you win or you don't win. However, when you're there and everyone, like some people have just won, and you think, oh, maybe it'd be fun to win. I have sat three and a half hours of this and I do really need a wee. And if you win, you get to go backstage

so you don't have to watch the rest of it. That's the thing, if you win, you're on stage and then you go and do a press conference. The off-ramp. It's the off-ramp. So you're literally thinking, oh my God, if we win. First you get BAFTA, which is nice, but more importantly, I don't have to watch the rest of the show. I've done two and a half hours and I've enjoyed it and I've clapped lots of people, but anyway, we didn't.

What a perk. My exec producer, Tamara Gilder, who was one of the greatest producers in the business, she's just, she is amazing, cut her teeth on all the Ant and Dec shows and things like that. She has, since she started working with me, she has, she says, she's on a hell of a streak. This was Tamara's 17th award ceremony in a row being nominated and not winning. She is on a 17 show losing streak. She's the Scorsese of daytime. Yes, isn't she just? For pointless we never won anything.

Not a BAFTA, not an RTS, nothing. For House of Games we've never won anything. And Tamara has been sat in the audience for every single one of them even the Scottish BAFTAs we she went up to and we didn't win so a 17 show losing streak and again it doesn't matter but it's quite funny and she because she's so brilliant and what you really want to do another reason actually that you want to win is you get the opportunity to go up on stage and thank people and it's which is just a nice thing to be able to do and you get to thank the team and I would have been able to thank Tamara and tell the world how brilliant she is.

But you have now. Everyone in that room knows she's brilliant anyway but yes 17 in a row. Have I ever told that Vitas Garelaitas story before? No. You know the American tennis player of the 1970s. Yes but you haven't told this story. So he the first 16 times that he played Jimmy Connors, he got beaten. And their next match, Vitas Gerylitis beats Jimmy Connors.

And he goes into the press room afterwards. He puts a big bottle of champagne down on the table and he says, nobody beats Vitas Gerylitis 17 times in a row. And I thought, well, listen, nobody, I would have said, nobody beats Tamarra Gilda 17 times in a row, but they do. But will anyone beat her 18 times in a row? Will they? Let's just wait and see. That's the question. But yeah, it's a really interesting one because of course when you're there, you do want to win. And we were gutted. But then you see something like Would I Lie

to You, which has been nominated eight times for win as the first time they'd ever won. And I just assumed that they had. They'd won it, so did I, but I didn't realise that. And Rachel Ablett and Peter Holmes, who made that. You just, it's lovely, you know, they had the BAFTA, it doesn't matter, but it's nicer to win than not to win when you're sitting in that boiling hot room. How did it come across on TV though? Well, please can we talk about it, considering it is about television as a television spectacle.

It's so odd, you know, television is something that basically most people in the UK are watching quite a lot of every single day, and they engage with it a lot in this particular era. How then did this feel so sort of out of date and in the past? And I can tell you one of the issues which for me, by the way, something like Mr. Bates versus the Post Office. Obviously, I, well, how much have I talked about it on this show? Maybe a year and a bit ago about how, you know, about how, how amazing that was as a show and what an amazing thing it did and how it moved on the conversation and all these sorts of things. I absolutely love those guys. I

absolutely love them. It won its first big award 14 months ago. I mean, it aired almost 18 months ago, not quite. We were talking about Marmalade Drop a moment from Traitors, not the series that aired in the January we've just had, but the one before that. Okay. Now I think they've got a big problem with their eligibility window. If this is the time if this is the time of year they're going to have the ceremony right it the eligibility window is runs from something like the 1st of January in this case the 1st of January 2024 to the 31st of December 2024. Now if the show is held almost six months after the eligibility window closes uh I know that they have to convene the juries and have to do all of that but I think in an era where people are very very engaged with, talk about it while it's happening, it's lots of our big viral moments, it's a big part of social media, it just seems

so sort of something of the past to be talking about shows, you know, Baby Ranger, again, that was 13 months ago. Again, I'm not sort of, this is absolutely no disrespect to the shows themselves. The Emmys went through something similar when they had to postpone them because of the strikes, where they were in a position where you were honouring the Bear season two, two months after the Bear season three had started. And everyone said, oh, this is absurd and we can't have this. But this is a sort of matter of kind of routine now. And I

Because I felt exactly that. Cause if you had a year ago pitched Mr. Bates versus the post office against baby reindeer, then that's, that's really compelling. Cause we're all talking about it. And this year, of course, you want to see how adolescence does. So yeah, that, that window closing would be super useful, I think.

And, you know, as you say, the traitors only like this stuff moves on and you know, there hasn say that traitors only like this stuff moves on and you know, there hasn't there hasn't been like a a big hit sort of in the last couple of months that was available for people to vote for or cheer for anything like that. And yes, if it felt like we were and it was great to be able to, you know, give Mr. Bates, the post office, all of those awards, but it would have been it would have been and it's tough. I mean, the second you start actually looking at the kind of dates and how to do it, it's tough for Baffler. But if they can move, I mean, just even six months, I mean, just give us a little bit more of a window, I think would really, really

help. It gives the impression that the industry is so far behind. And in a way it's such a sort of vital movement, as I say, vital medium, because people are talking about it all the time. And it's a big part of what people talk about online and how they talk with their friends. And if it's for things that they think, oh, yeah, no, I remember that. Yeah, that seems extraordinary. And it seems embarrassing given that this is television about television. And so it but you know, it rated okay. It was very, you know, Sunday night, which helps. Peaked over three million. Yeah. Yeah.

Couldn't get as much as Countryphile. Yes, listen, but nothing, you know, as I've always said, nothing gets as much as Countryphile. In terms of the mood music that I found interesting, there was some optimism there, which was great. You know, there's producers there who are finding new ways of making things, new ways of funding things, who are finding interesting new talent. So I thought that was interesting. Not a single talk about tariffs from any, I mean, that story just hasn't, it's made...

It has in film, but he hasn't said anything about television, so maybe that's why. I know, but again, the uncertainty is the thing. And actually no one seems particularly worried about it, including producers who make a lot in America and who make a lot in the UK and export their IP. The most exciting thing, I think there were a few people there who had just finished Celebrity Traitors and there were some of the production team as well. And I, of course, because I'm a news hound, if I'm anything, I'm a service journalist. I spoke to every single one of them and all of them were admirably tight-lipped,

as I knew they would be. But you look in the eyes, right? Of course you do. That's the way you do it. It seems like it went well, I think. Everyone seemed pretty happy. The production team were pretty happy with what they've got. I talked to a couple of people who had actually been on it, a couple of their contestants. I think, by the way, the full lineup is being announced today. So if you'll listen to this in the morning,

I think it's coming out this afternoon, and if you're listening later, then, and yes, as I've said before, we do not know the full lineup, but we will find that out today. Yes, I was talking to people who did it, and their basic thing was everyone who did it is a fan of the show.

They wanted to be inside that. Which is why such to people who did it and their basic thing was everyone who did it's a fan of the show They like they wanted to be inside why such good people are doing it why such an amazing lineup but the the the The thing that everyone was saying was it is a lot more intense than you think it's good It is a lot more intense if you if you were to win it you're there for two weeks There's no phones. You're not watching TV I mean you're there for two weeks, there's no phones, you're not watching TV. I mean, you're kept sort of isolated because of the nature of the game. And I think even for these, but you know,

lots of presenters and actors are sort of used to having a bit of control over the product that goes out or at least always be in a dialogue with the producer and the director and stuff. And this is a show where you are not in dialogue with the producer or the director, in fact, quite the opposite. It's imperative that you are not in dialogue with the producer or the director, in fact, quite the opposite. It's imperative that you are not in dialogue with them. And they said, it was really, really, really intense.

I can't wait for this show. I have to say, I am absolutely dying for it. As we said before, that's what's so fun about it. It will be completely different with people who have a public profile. And people who know bits about each other already and where there is a status difference, where there's an immediate status difference. Yes. So yeah, listen, I can't wait. I'm dying for it.

I talked to various people's agents as well who have clients in it. So everybody seems happy. The production team certainly seem happy. Claudia was there and was keeping very tight-lipped about the whole thing, but it feels like we've got a treat in store coming up. So yeah, the Bafters, it doesn't matter, but it's interesting. I thought it was beautifully put together. I think they need to change that eligibility window because I mean, it's fascinating that Baby Reindeer won nothing apart from Jessica Gunning. Everyone was so happy that she won.

The ones that went down really well in the room, Jessica Gunning winning, went down really well. Would I lie to you, winning, went down very well. Lenny James went down great as well. Now that was relatively recent. That was October, I think. Yeah, and that's what you need, essentially. You sort of needed, maybe it would be too late

to get an adolescence in there, but that's what you need. Especially if things are released in January, you're not gonna be at the BAFTAs for 18 months. There's so many of these old sort of super tankers, which as you say, are still big and rated well, but just don't feel like they're keeping pace with the nature of the conversation around television, whatever it is,

they're moving at a different speed to the thing that they're celebrating. And I think it showed up a lot. But listen, the thing to look out for next year is will Tamara Gilder lose her 18th nomination in a row? Listen, I wouldn't put it, but she can do anything. When she puts her mind to it tomorrow, can she achieve anything? I think she can lose 18 in a row. Go tomorrow. Yeah, go tomorrow.

Have you got any recommendations for me, Richard? Yes, I have. I mean, listen, Poker Face has started again, but I talk about Poker Face all the time. So instead, I'm going to send you in the direction of a documentary on iPlayer. So half hour long, made in 1979, I think. But it follows a very young thing, 21 year old Eric Bristow, around the country doing like signings and playing. Just for the benefit of our listeners who maybe not fully versed in darts, can you explain? Yeah, sorry. I know there aren't any, but could you just explain who Eric Bristow is? Yeah, I think you might. You know what? I resign. Eric Bristow was one of the great first wave of darts players,

world champion. This catches him just before he's world champion. And it's such a period piece now, this 1979 and he's in working with clubs and he's playing darts against people and what people are wearing and all some of the stuff he's saying. And the whole thing is framed around this amazing interview with that, with an interview on radio Trent, whose name I think Chris Ashley, and he really, really putting Bristow through his paces and Bristow's loving it. Bristow's smoking in the studio. It's one of those things where you go, it's a Britain that we have lost and it's really loved. Obviously,

if you like dance, you'll enjoy it, but even if you don't, there's something about it. I love that. In this Adam and Curtis thing that's coming, there's a lot of footage from the 80s of just parties that people had in their houses, just like with their neighbours and friends. And it's, there's something and you think, yeah, that's what parties were like, and it was sort of different types of them. And there's some there's a couple of sort of, you know, people having sort of square dancing things and just in their front rooms and having the sofa. It's so weird. I always think we must remember when we watch anything like that, we must remember that

we're living in the past right now. We must remember in 30 years time, just think about where you eat dinner and what you do in the shops you now. We must remember it in 30 years time. Just think about where you eat dinner and what you do in the shops you go to and what you're wearing and what the street furniture is. And think 30 years time when someone's got footage of that and how ancient it's gonna be. We are living in this wonderful nostalgic past every day of our lives.

And it's called Arrows, half an hour long. So I'm BBC iPlayer and I absolutely loved it. On that very positive note, please join us for our question and answers edition, which is going to be in part a Eurovision special because Eurovision is coming up on Saturday as like you didn't already know. I know. Hopefully we'll be talking. We could have talked about it this week, but in a way it'd be more fun to talk about it next week. But on the Q&A, we've got lots of Eurovision people. You've sent in so many questions and we've got answers from the horse's mouth.

Yes. On many of those. Lots of other questions as well, by the way, but we will have a few on Eurovision. And if you want to listen to that episode now, you can do if you're a member of our club, which you join at therestisentertainment.com. Otherwise, as usual, it will be available on Thursdays. And we have actually got a bonus episode on Friday, which is continuing the Monty Python story Yeah, we're busy, aren't we? We are busy. We are busy. And on that note, see you on Thursday Well, that brings us to the end of another episode of the Restless Entertainment, brought to you by our friends at Sky. I have been catching up on The Last of Us recently, such a gripping watch.

Absolutely right. The critics are fairly unanimous. It's dark and intense, brilliantly done, they're all saying, especially on your Skyglass with its high quality screen. Yeah, even those very low lit scenes, every flicker, every detail, it really pulls you in. One minute you'll be stretched out on the sofa, the next you'll be gripping the cushion and that is not a euphemism. The picture quality really just brings everything to life from the comfort of your living room. It feels properly cinematic, like the room fades away and you're in the thick of it. Until the clickers show up, then it feels a bit too real.

That's when you reach for the blanket, the perfect night in. Couldn't agree more, so for anyone wanting to upgrade this screen time, head to Sky.com and check out Sky TV. I'm David McCloskey, former CIA analyst turned spy novelist. And I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist. Together we're the hosts of another Goal Hangers show, The Rest is Classified, and we bring you brilliant stories from the world of spies. Here's that clip we mentioned earlier on.

June 5th, 2013, this first article drops and it's a massive one. It is a massive one. The world doesn't yet know that the source for this article is Edward Snowden. All they get is this remarkable story. I mean, I remember it dropping and thinking, where has this come from? It just felt so kind of unusual as a story. We should explain what it was and why it's so significant. It's a court order to the company Verizon that demands it hands over the details

of every phone call in America. And what it was after was what's called the metadata, not the content of the call. So it's basically saying these two phones connected at this time for so long, not necessarily what was said in that phone call, but it allows the idea for the NSA and then the FBI to kind of carry out searches on it to look for terrorists or other

suspects. The point being though that this looks like domestic surveillance by the NSA. And that was stunning partly because the US director of national intelligence, James Clapper, just a few months before had been asked in Congress by a Senator almost a question which suggests that the Senator knew about this program because the Senator said, does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans? And Clapper's reply was no. Jason Vale There is a tremendous gap between the understanding of this program, I think, inside sort of the

upper reaches of Congress and the intelligence community and the White House and what the American people think is happening. And that's where this article is such a bombshell because Americans prior to this, ordinary people, did not have an understanding that any of this was authorised. Exactly. I think what's interesting, if it had just been that one story, it would have been big, but actually it's really an American story. It's about the kind of American constitution and legal protections. But, and I think you can imagine US officials going, okay, well, you know, that's bad. But then the Guardian tells US officials who they're in contact with,

that they've got another story coming down the line. And I think that's important because it makes clear that it's not just a single document that's been leaked, but there's more and it's coming from what looks like inside the NSA. So the next day, there's a little race, but the Guardian publishes a story on something called Prism. Now this is another biggie in terms of a reveal. And I think for a lot of people, this is perhaps, particularly around the world, this is the more famous one. This is about the content of emails and communications which are coming from big US tech firms. This is about basically the idea that the NSA had access directly to companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Apple, to things like Gmail, Outlook, Photos, all the data that people are sending around the world.

This is in some ways a more stunning revelation because everyone around the world uses American tech companies. Those were basically the only companies you used for email and for everything else. And suddenly this program is being revealed saying the NSA appears to have access to it and is able to target and get particular accounts and details of it. But if you go back to that time, I mean, if you then talk to people now about what it was like in GCHQ, you know, Britain's intelligence agency, I mean, there is blind panic. Ian Lobin, who was then the director later said, when I heard the news, I lay awake saying to myself, I hope this isn't a Brit. Because they've realised they've got a leak.

Some of it looks like it relates to Britain. He's reported to have gone round colleagues asking is anyone in your teams at GCHQ taking a long holiday? And I think meanwhile in NSA as well, there's this desperate panic as they realise their secrets are being unfurled. But what's interesting is that they are kind of narrowing it down and they're certainly kind of heading towards Snowden if they don't know it already at this point. Typically, someone who'd done this would keep themselves secret. But luckily, he's a massive narcissist with a massive ego. And if you want to hear the full episode, listen to the rest is classified wherever you get your podcasts.