The Rest Is Entertainment - Taylor Swift, your person of the year?

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

Calling all Swifties! Richard and Marina discuss the powerhouse that is Taylor Swift being bestowed TIME Magazine's 'Person of The Year'; Richard breaks down the battle for Christmas number 1 - and provides plenty of musical facts you can claim as your own; plus we reflect on the I'm A Celebrity finale and offer a whole host of book recommendations. Twitter: @restisents Email: [e-mail] Producer: Neil Fearn Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Recommendations; Read David Gann - The Wager: A Tale of Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder Werner Herzog - Every Man for Himself and God Against All J.L. Carr - A Month In The Country Oliver Soden - Masquerade: The Lives of Noël Coward Adrian Edmondson - Berserker! Katherine Rundell - Impossible Creatures G.T. Karber - Murdle Board Games Wavelength The Mind Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Week three. This week we're talking about Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift has been named Time's Person of the Year, so we're going to talk about that. I'm going to talk about Christmas number one, which for the first time in about 20 years is going to be exciting. You're going to take us on a thrill ride with that. Oh, it's going to be like a roller coaster, with christmas music that sounds like a great roller coaster i i would i would certainly go have you been to winter wonderland i'm every time i walk past it i cross myself and thank the lord for saving me from it it's actually much better if you go early in the morning which is what i do

we digress then we're going to do a little catch up on the weekend's tv there's a show called i'm a celebrity i don't know if you've heard of it we We'll do the mop up on that. We'll do a mop up on that. And also we're going to be recommending books for Christmas. Great gifts you can give pretty much everybody. Shall we get started? Let's get started with Taylor Swift, shall we? Taylor Swift has been named Time Magazine Person of the Year. Now, if you're one of our younger listeners and thinking, what is Time Magazine? Exactly. Taylor swift is now much more famous than it but every year that since i think the 1920s they've made somebody person of the year actually was man of the year uh until 1999 and i think only 11 women have actually ever had this

thing you know it's often it's politicians or um sort of peacemakers or um kind of international figures last year it was vladimir zelensky the ukrain figures. Last year it was Vladimir Zelensky, the Ukrainian president. This year it is Taylor Swift. Did he hand over the baton at a ceremony? I mean, it would have been great. They don't actually do that, but they have basked in the reflected glory of Taylor Swift being named their Person of the Year,

which is a sort of reflection in some ways as to what she's doing all over the place. Now when they think that her tour, her era's tour, passes through somewhere like, e.g., the great state of Missouri, it will provide an economic bump because of all the consumer spending. There's a sort of uplift around it. Weren't they saying, didn't the banks in America say it's genuinely had an impact on the GDP of the entire country?

Yes. That's a lot of pressure. Yes. But what I find quite annoying about it, I have noticed that people have started talking about Taylor Swift now as an economic story and they call it Swiftonomics. And it's sort of like now she's making, now she's an economic story. We can pay attention to her and write about her. And there are a lot of these really kind of repressed people who, I just, I hope we never

do that on this podcast, is talk about things because they make money in entertainment. It's this kind of awful financial fig leaf that thinks, oh, now because she makes a lot of money, you know, that will give us a gravitas to be able to talk about this. Well, I think that's just a load of bollocks, okay? Because we talk about these things, I hope, in entertainment on this podcast, because they matter to people, because they make people laugh or cry, or because they reflect their love back to them or anything. Maybe they make them despair. But it doesn't matter because something is economically successful in and of itself.

Money can be a useful metric and a lens to look at some of the things we look at. But I do think that people who can only talk about Taylor Swift because she is, you know, kind of providing some sort of economic bump now are kind of desiccated and beaten. I think that's right. I mean, I don't talk about Chico because he makes money. I talk about Chico because I love Chico. Am I right? I can't wait for your Christmas number one. You're right. It's become an economic story. And actually, it's a cultural story. She's become an extraordinary phenomenon. So she's made an extraordinary amount of money through various business dealings this year, which I'm sure you'll get onto. But really what she is, she's sort of a colossus who is in charge of the entirety of world culture currently.

Well, it's funny. First of all, she gives an interview to Time, which is so unusual because the interview is great. We'll come on to that. But which is so unusual because she no longer really gives interviews. She doesn't actually need to give interviews any longer. She's an sort of unmediated figure in a way. I mean, even recently, the New York Times profiled her. And for my money, the best writer in all Anglophone newspapers is someone called Taffy Brodesser-Akner, who does the profiles for the New York Times. She is incredible. And normally, her profiles will involve thinking a lot about the celebrity in question and also spending time with an interview.

But Taylor Swift didn't even need to do that. Nevertheless, the resultant profile is absolutely extraordinary. But she has given an interview to Time, which is very unusual. But yeah, I think you're right. She is a sort of she's a sort of person of one. In this kind of fragmented world of culture that we live in now, we didn't think necessarily that you could have celebrities of the size of the pop stars, of the scale that you had, say, back in the 80s, like, you know, Madonna, Michael Jackson. But she, age 33, is up there.

They call her, in this interview, the main character of the world, which I think is a really good line. And they also call her the master storyteller. It's a tad much, isn't it? Well, I don't know. I mean, who would you say is up there? Maybe, like, J.K. Rowling might be up there. You might have Marvel might be up there.

Stephen King. Stephen King. Okay, but. I think what they're referring to there, and they talk about it in that article, which is very interesting, is that thing that the stories we tell now are the stories of ourselves.

Yes. You know, that's who we are. We present ourselves in a certain way. And they conclude there that the thing about Taylor is she's just better at that than anybody else there's a lovely quote from one of her fans saying look she writes all about herself but i'm not interested in her i'm interested in what it means about me you know so she uses her story to tell other people's story that's absolutely what she does and i suppose that's

her sort of message never feel ashamed of yourself in any era in which you're going through that's just her era's tour which is um take control of your own life take back what people took from you this is an important point we'll come back to it and tell your own story so she's a master storyteller in the way that if you're Stephen King if I'm sitting at home as an 18 year old I'm probably not going to meet a clown in a drain whereas I probably am going to have a have a breakup with somebody and then get back together with them then break break up again so it has more relevance to me than perhaps

I was going to say has more relevance than a writer being murdered by an obsessed fan but then I thought oh that could actually happen to me but the clown in the drain I stick by that's probably not going to happen If you were murdered by a clown in a drain. Oh no that would be awful this would be played forever

It would be. Make sure you're on... Me laughing. I'd be retrospectively cancelled for laughing. No, but the money you'd make from it... Yeah, you're right. If you've got the rights bit where I talk about not being murdered by a clown in a drain, I am then murdered by a clown in a drain.

World's greatest true crime podcast. You are going to be richer than Taylor. You're right. Okay, so it's not... I mean, maybe both outcomes are fine. And by Taylor, I mean Taylor Swift, not Dennis Taylor. You'd be even richer than Taylor Swift. So they say she's the first ever music billionaire.

The single tour is going to make more than a billion and it's obviously rolled out around the world. These incredible things happen. You know, when the ticket master for that tour, there was some sort of failing with it. They had a Senate hearing about it. There are multiple, multiple fan lawsuits against sort of ticket master

because they weren't able to get tickets. I mean, everything is this kind of extraordinary heightened thing. It must be so hard to be her and to essentially have no peer group. I mean, her squad, all these famous women who she hangs around with a lot, she came all the way over to Beyoncé's Renaissance tour movie

that opened in London just very recently, the last couple of weeks. She flew over and presented at the premiere. You know, she raises people up and she has all her girlfriends, but it is nonetheless hard to be, I mean, really in a sort of culture of one, I think. Yeah, hard to be Taylor. Hard to be Taylor. But you're right, and she talks about the money is interesting in the context that the money that she has made and that Beyonce has made she said the lovely thing is once people realize that women's art makes money then women are allowed

to make more art and that's the point the money to her is an end to make more art she sees money as keeping score and as you say of getting a group of people who wouldn't have previously been interested in what it is she does or would have dismissed it as a frippery to take it seriously. Another female artist, a former American Idol winner, Kelly Clarkson, was the person who gave her the idea. One of the things that Taylor Swift is doing currently, which you may or may not be aware of, but I'm sure you will be, is the masters of her first six albums were sold against her will.

She was trying to buy them back herself, but they were sold anyway. And she was so angry and so distressed about this because she felt like she wanted to control her story and you know her own music and it was Kelly Clarkson who said to her why don't you just like record them all over again do new artwork do them almost exactly the same but do new artwork and maybe a couple of other little things and that is what she is actually doing she is going through every single one of those albums and she is recording the Taylor's versions of them. So this is really taking back what life took for me. Yeah, a guy called Scooter Braun, who is Justin Bieber's manager,

he essentially owns the rights to the original recordings. But all he owns is the rights to the recordings, right? Essentially the tapes. He's literally got those physical tapes. That's what he owns. And yes, so she has called his bluff. And another thing she's done this year, she's put the film of the era's tour, the concert tour,

instead of getting it sort of distributed and package it up and then sell it to the movie theatres, she sold it direct into movie theatres. So much about what she is about is cutting out the middleman and is often a man, let's face it. And that opened bigger than a Marvel movie. And I suspect it's what's going to happen more and more and more is stars are going to take control of their own narrative

and their own IP and the stuff that they own and the stuff that they write and the stuff that they make. Now, the key thing for Taylor, listen, you can be as smart a business brain as you want. She makes great music, continues to make great music, is a brilliant songwriter herself, collaborates with brilliant people, Phoebe Bridges, you know, the guys from The National.

It's always around brilliant people. And that's what you have have to have it doesn't matter how smart you are or what story you tell about yourself the content has to work you have to keep releasing great stuff which she does but in the interview she settles a few scores right well which i love by the way and i have seen some people saying oh why she got brought up this old beef in time magazine it's like okay hitler was time magazine's person of the year in 1938 he had a lot of beef okay people i mean it was all beef wasn't it it was i mean 100 beef having said that this is the wagyu beef what taylor brings up in this interview because this what she does is she resurrects this whole drama with um kanye west and kim kardashian which i'm going to put the bare bones

on it for those who don't know it because it does actually date back i think about 14 years the barest barest bones are taylor is getting her award for best video at the uh vma is the mtv video awards and kanye gets on stage and grabs the microphone off her and says sorry sorry i'm gonna let you finish in a minute uh i just want to say that Beyonce had a essentially Beyonce had a better music video this year it was so unbelievably sort of horrific and and she was really young and it was a you know she was basically 19 and it was a it's kind of a terrible thing to happen anyway sometime later he released a song about her Kenny called famous saying that they might end up having sex together and saying, I made that bitch famous. And he said that Taylor had approved the lyrics.

Now, Taylor said she hadn't approved them all. And then Kim Kardashian released a covert phone recording, which turned out to have been edited, although people didn't know that at the time, implying that she had approved all this. And then so the internet called Taylor a snake. And as she's really clear in this interview, it completely broke her.

She moved to another country, which is widely assumed to be the UK. She said she didn't really come out of her rental house for a year. She was afraid to take phone calls. She honestly believed that everything she'd worked for had been taken away from her. I say, yes, and in the interview,

she has one thing to say about Kim and Kanye. Yeah, she doesn't say it directly in the bit she's talking about kim and kenya because it would that i think that would be too sledgehammer for her but it's really classy it comes out later and she says trash takes itself out every single time that's nice i mean that's why it's not about money yeah it's a bit it's not getting your own back on there she's very good about not liking to be compared to beyonce because she's, just because we're both women, we get compared all the time.

But I do feel, given the context here, I am going to compare her to Kim Kardashian because I think that's really interesting. They're two very different kinds of kind of extreme female fame at this time in our culture. So he wants to say to Kim, are you a feminist? And she said, I don't think I am. I just want to do what makes me happy.

And to me, she is just like a pure expression of individualism. She can't really conceive of any kind of collectivism. And Taylor Swift is sort of all about collectivism. There are people like Taylor, Lady Gaga, who've got their little monsters, their Swifties, you know, why doesn't Kim have a name for her fans? I think she just thinks of all women as kind of atomized consumers. for her fans. I think she just thinks of all women as kind of atomized consumers. Fascinating that they're both insanely successful, have both worked out how to use the media. But I honestly think the difference between the two is Taylor produces something. Taylor has something that will endure. Taylor can get more than shapewear, more than shapewear, would enjoy even more. So I'm glad they both exist. And I'm glad they both find a way to express themselves. But Taylor is the one who's producing and creating and will have a legacy and we'll be talking about in 50 years and 100 years time.

I'm glad Kimo exists because I think there need to be monsters in the culture. There need to be villains so that there can be heroines. But that is how I see how they fall on that side of the divide. I think it's great. I think she's amazing. And I think if you were growing up now as a teenager, what an incredible role model to have somewhere in the middle of culture. I think she's a force for good. I think she's incredibly talented. And it's very nice that

she's making the money and not a series of faceless men who would have made the money in the 80s and 90s. I couldn't agree more. Talking of a series of faceless men making money in the 80s and 90s. I couldn't agree more. Talking of a series of faceless men making money in the 80s and 90s, see, that's why I get the big bucks, Marina. Segways. Segways is what I do. Christmas number one.

Great. I want to talk about it because it's been boring for about 20 years, Christmas number one, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the reality shows, X Factor and what have you, which had a stranglehold on it.

And for the last five years, Lad Baby. Please explain Lad Baby for people who somehow don't know. lad baby they're a married couple and every year they do a christmas song all the money goes to trussell trust so that's fine but it's always you know i love sausage rolls they're always food related yeah instead of i love rock and roll it would be i love sausage rolls yeah there's a sort of non-brand Greg's theme to it there is a non-brand Greg's theme yeah Greg's are not an official partner but arguably should have been anyhow

we should be sponsored by non-brand Greg's just we should be sponsored by sausage rolls I would be very happy just sausage rolls as a concept I consume yes oh I'm I hear Taylor is doing their work now um so for the last five years, they've been Christmas number one, which is a record by an absolute mile. But the reason I want to talk about Christmas number one this year is this year they have pulled out of the race. And I confidently predict that it'll be one of four songs that's going to be Christmas number one.

And whichever one it is, it's going to make history. I'm going to predict who it is later. Now, Christmas number one wasn't really a thing until 1973, which is when Slade did Merry Christmas Everybody. There'd been a couple of Christmas number ones in the 50s. There'd been Mary's Boy Child and Christmas Alphabet. But I think after Phil Spector's Christmas album, everyone went, oh, we can do this.

So Slade and Wizard went head to head in 73. Slade won it. Wizard had I Wish It Could Be Christmas Every Day, which didn't get to number one. And then you have the sort of glory days of Christmas number ones and you had Cliff and you've got Wham and, you know, The Pogues and all these things. Am I right in thinking that this is a really UK phenomenon actually

and that they're not obsessed with this particular spot in the charts for that one week in the US in the same way? Yes, they're obsessed with Christmas songs. So Gene Autry, who had some of the biggest selling songs of all all times he did Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer and he did Frosty the Snowman and these were you forget that somebody sat down and wrote those songs yeah right and they sold like millions and millions and millions and virtually every one of those Christmas songs White Christmas all that they they were all when you look into them they were all written in like half an hour in LA in June. Like all of them.

Respect it. Yeah, exactly. And become these huge hits. But in the UK, the Christmas number one has sort of gone out of fashion. There's only been seven songs ever to be Christmas number one with the word Christmas in the title. And that's if we're including Slade, which is Xmas. But I am including it. Of course it is.

The last Christmas number one, the actual Christmassy song, was nearly 20 years ago. It was 2004 and it was Band Aid 20. Oh yes. Do they know it's Christmas? Which, by the way, Tom York's only ever number one single. There you go. There's a fact for you. That is quite a fact. There's some unusual people on that Band Aid. Tom York's on it. The guys from Supergrass are on it. Neil Hannan from Divine Comedy is on it. I must go back and look at the group shot. Whereas the previous one is like big fun. Yeah, that was the nadir.

And people like that. But, so this year, who's going to win? Because always there's some unlikely contenders. You know, there's always a no-one-quite-like-grandma. St. William's Free School Choir, that was number one. Save Your Love, René Renato. Mr. Blobby always a no one quite like grandma some way for his school choir that was number one save your love renny and renato mr blobby had a number one by the way anyone any detectives at home i was looking into who wrote various um christmas songs which is always quite interesting mr blobby it's almost i can't work out who wrote it see ya so i don't hold on she

writes some more doesn't she yeah i've been told it's Taylor Swift. You can't work out... It's got a name on the label, but that doesn't seem to be someone who actually exists. Amazing. Just, I can't put my name... Literally can't put my name to this. I will kill you if you put my name to this song.

Yeah, exactly. It's one of those ones that no one's claiming. My name's taken off the movie. I mean, it's probably Noel, because he'll want the money for it. But Bob the Builder, all the X Factor stuff Rage Against the Machine that was the last

funny Christmas number one I really wanted to talk about that because I loved it this was when this was in 2009 when we were in Simon Cowell

bestowed entertainment like a colossal the karaoke Saron his eye was staring down at us at all moments and he his artist that year

you know who was a guy called Joe McKeldry. And it sort of just got to the end of the saturation of Cowell having this number one every single year with the X Factor winner. And so some people just started a Facebook campaign to get Rage Against the Machines,

Killing in the Name of, to be Christmas number one. And first of all, you couldn't even buy it. It's the first download only number one, I believe. And Cowell was so affronted that this was happening. Two things are interesting about this. Well, first of all, he kept saying, you're not doing this to me. They're not hurting me. They're hurting this poor young man, Joe McKeldry,

who, by the way, Simon Cowell would drop from the record label in 15 months. So, you know, yes, I agree, poor young man, but for different reasons. And also, but they were on the same record label, Cowl and Rage Against the Machine. And Rage Against the Machine say that the record label were really angry about it. They kept trying to call their record label to say, this is amazing, what's happening with our song?

And the record company just didn't call them back, obviously didn't reissue this as a single, so it had to be download only. But the campaign was successful and you know simon cowell was overthrown in a i mean truly heartwarming not not quite up there with it's a wonderful life but kind of like the next tear down of christmas of christmas miracles we should i was i'd love to write a christmas movie and that's the that's what i'm going to write a christmas movie about is the destruction of simon cowell's christmas number one hopes for

joe mckeldrey joe mckeldrey by the way i've met is absolutely lovely i was what this is such a what I'm going to write a Christmas movie about is the destruction of Simon Cowell's Christmas number one hopes for Joe McKeldry. Joe McKeldry, by the way, who I've met, is absolutely lovely. This is such a digression. Yeah, sorry. I once went to a festival in Spain with my brother's band, Suede, and you're driving up around the Pyrenees in this coach, and it's really terrifying, like hairpin bends. But then I was thinking, listen, it's okay,

because these drivers do it all day, every day. And then the next day, Rage Against the Machine's coach went down the mountain. They were fine, but it went off the road. So anyway, that's all I have to say about that. So Rage Against the Machine was the last funny one. This year, there's a few unlikely contenders. There's Nala, the Stevenage Station cat. She's done a song called Check Me Out, which is a Christmas song which I've listened to, so you don't have to.

Like Rage Against the Machine, a lot of realness. Talking of realness, Sleaford Mods have got a Christmas song which I've listened to so you don't have to like Rage Against the Machine a lot of realness talking of realness Sleaford Mods have got a Christmas number one contender they've got a version of West End Girls have they?

yeah I mean listen songs I love Sooty has done a version of the Nolans I'm in the mood for dancing can you guess what he's called it?

no I can't but I'd like you to tell me I'm in the mood for Christmas oh are Sweep and Sue on it? they are but they do not get as always No, I can't. But I'd like you to tell me. I'm in the mood for Christmas. Oh. I'll sweep and sue on it. They are. But they do not get, as always, they do not get top billing.

EMF have teamed up with Stephen Fry. Oh, my God. I know, to do a song called Hello People. But that's for Shelter, I think, as well. Anyway, look, those are the unlikely contenders. But there's four that are going to win it. Before I go on to them, my three favourites. Chris, on number one facts, if you can bear it i would love this um this first one this rather realize you know like how you get old yes and you suddenly realize that other people don't know

your references and you talk to young people i'm going to tell a story now about thora herd amazing okay i'm looking around anybody thanks for joining us everyone there's some youngsters uh tony knows thora heard there he is the christmas song chestnuts roasting on an open fire was written by thora heard son-in-law no yeah how about that mel tormey written in half an hour chestnuts roasting on an open fire and stupidly called the christmas song because they have to constantly put brackets you know chestnuts roasting on an open fire because otherwise no one knows the one they're talking about. Talking of people who write Christmas songs, Mistletoe and Wine

Christmas number one, Cliff Richard. That was written by the same man who wrote the theme tune to Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. Really? Yeah, it made absolutely millions. Keith Strachan wrote the millionaire theme with his son. I'd like to talk to him about a couple of the lyric, the couplets in that which are not acceptable, not the millionaire theme. Mistile Turn Wine?

Yeah. Missile Turn Wine, Christian Rhyme, unacceptable as a couplet in the movie. Do you think? Nobody has ever said the phrase Christian Rhyme at all, so if you've had to do that, you've had to make it go, and I think you should have come up with something else. Every Christmas Eve, I think Christmas Eve, Missile Turn Steve,

and I don't know why, I can never get that out of my head, so now I can put it in your head as well. But Merry Christmas, Everyone, by Shakey,aky which is a classic they were supposed to release in the same year as Band-Aid but they realized Band-Aid was coming out they thought this song is too good so they held it back for an entire year anyway that was written by Bob Heatley who wrote the theme tune to Pat Sharp's Funhouse again thank you for the references absolute pleasure my final one is Christmas Rrapping by The Waitresses. So that's the song, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas,

which the Spice Girls did a cover version of, and it's a great song. And the guy who wrote Christmas Wrapping, Chris Butler, made some money out of the Spice Girls cover version of Christmas Wrapping, so bought a house in Ohio, was shown around this house. It was much cheaper than he thought it was going to be because it was big. So he bought this house with Christmas wrapping money. And the reason it was so cheap, he found out later, it was Jeffrey Dahmer's house.

So the money that the Spice Girls made him was spent on Jeffrey Dahmer's house. Most of us would pull out of the purchase. That took me somewhere unexpected. He went, I know, right? You did not think I was going to go from Pat Sharp's Funhouse to Jeffrey Dahmer quite that quickly. It's quite a lot of levels below It's a Wonderful Life in terms of Christmas spirit.

Yes, that is quite a few. It is a little bit. Good fact, though. Spice Girls have had a few. They've had three, I think. They had three in a row. Yeah, exactly. Beatles did three in a row.

Spice Girls did three in a row. And then Lad Baby came along with five in a row. They got involved in the culture. They were sort of taken up in the culture wars. Like everything, nothing can be not in the culture wars. People thought that, they think that they voted Conservative in 2019 and that therefore the fact that all the records

were always in support of the trust of trust, they say, you know, by doing things in aid of food banks, essentially you're legitimising food banks, which is quite a leap. And it's not at all clear that they voted Conservative in the 2019 general election. But anyway, this poor couple who had done quite a lot for charity seemed to have got completely caught up in the culture war.

I don't know if it was legitimate or not, but anyway, perhaps that's why they pulled that. They thought they'd have a good run and they don't want to do it anymore. That's the thing. The thing that's really changed now is streaming council awards, Christmas number one. Okay, so all the old Christmas songs are back. So last week's top ten, eight of the top ten of Christmas songs, including

the four that I'm going to talk about, Shaky, Bobby Helm's Jingle Bell Rock, which is in the top ten, Bublé, has got, yeah, beginning to look a lot like Christmas, biggest selling Christmas song of the 21st century, Bublé, and also Ed Sheeran's Christmas song

is there. Fifteen of the top twenty are Christmas songs, including Underneath the Tree, which I is there. 15 of the top 20 are Christmas songs, including Underneath the Tree, which I think is the best of the 21st century Christmas songs, Kelly Clarkson, and Snowman by Sia, which I think is the other one, both written by the same person. But anyway, I digress.

Some of the classics are not anywhere. Slade, Merry Christmas to Everybody, is like the 28th best-selling Christmas song at the moment. Stop the Cavalry is 37th, and East 17, 53rd. That's a travesty. We'll stay another day. So there's going to be four songs that it could be between. Fairytale of New York, of course. Never Been Christmas No. 1.

Shane McGowan's obviously just died. Shane McGowan passed away. So that's the bookie's favourite, Fairytale of New York. Last Christmas Has Never Been Christmas No. 1. It's been No. 1, but never Christmas No. 1. Ah, OK. So this year could be the first time. All I Want for Christmas Is You has never been Christmas number one It's been number one but never Christmas number one Ah, okay So this year could be the first time All I Want For Christmas Is You has never been Christmas number one

It was kept off number one in its original time by Stay Another Day by East 17 So it's going to be between those three Fairytale of New York, Last Christmas All I Want For Christmas Is You All of which I'd be happy with But at the last minute although Lad Baby have pulled out

the producers of Lad Baby have pulled out, the producers of Lad Baby have come up with another song. They've got together a group of people who are famous on TikTok. They're called the Creators Universe. And they've released a version of I Wish It Could Be Christmas Every Day by Wizard, which has also never been Christmas number one. So if you'd asked me last week i'd have said last christmas will be number one i think pogues are the favorite i don't think it will be i think that uh i think wham are the favorite but they might just be beaten by creators universe i wish it could be christmas every day and the reign of lad baby will continue just under a different name i mean that's

a lot of a lot of jeopardy. They'll be the puppet president in the way that Medvedev was to Putin for some time, yes. They'll continue to pull the strings, lad baby. They will continue to pull the lad baby strings, yeah. But if it is, it's raising money for Trussell Trust, it's Christmas and at least there's a race finally

this year. On that note, we're going to take a quick break. Best Western made booking our family beach vacation a breeze, and it felt a little like... life's a trip make the most of it at best western welcome back now i think i we did promise a little bit of cleanup on i'm a celebrity which finished last night. We're recording this on a Monday. And Nigel Farage has finished third in another election.

Not the first time, may not be the last. And the winner was Sam Thompson. So Sam Thompson, who is from Made in Chelsea. So he's one of those people you're sort of aware of in the culture somewhere, but not quite who they are or what they do. But now we're all aware of him. Absolutely. He is now, he has the world at his feet, Richard. He has the world at his feet. And afterwards, he wasn't met by Zara, his lovely partner, who was in Strictly this year. He was met by his podcast partner, Pete Wicks, who is another very interesting character, I would say.

But the lovely two of them just hugging on the bridge at the end. Just the endless bromance of it all. It'd be like if Alastair Campbell went into the jungle, which I'd pay good money for, him coming out and Rory Stewart giving him a hug. I could see Rory in the jungle. I think Rory could handle it because he's got that kind of boarding school thing

where he's probably used to it. You'd never do it, right? Oh, don't be stupid. That's one of my anxiety dreams, that I wake up and I'm in a reality show. I used to dream about getting married to the wrong person. I think I've told you this before. And then you did that. And then I got married.

Since I was married nearly 25 years ago, I haven't had that dream. But I've dreamt almost solidly since then, because that was in 1999, and pretty soon after that was Big Brother. I dreamt I was waking up in either the Big Brother house or on a reality format that is already going and I'm on it and I somehow can't escape. You know what? That's life though, isn't it? We're all living in a reality format.

We're all in the Truman Show, Richard. My anxiety dream is waking up and I'm on a podcast. I'm like, no, come on. It was so lovely. Sam Thompson and Tony Bellew's relationship is one of the most beautiful male friendships I've ever seen depicted on screen. And I'm a Brokeback Mountain fan.

I think you could tell that Farage had this campaign to try and vote for him, but eventually you can't defeat the beast of a proper big television show. You can become third. No, it's interesting. He had a very, very concerted campaign and talking to people sort of around the show,

there was a coordinated voting campaign, but it's really from people who aren't watching the show. GB News pushed it, where he has a show, actively pushed for viewers to vote for him all the time. They gave them the full instructions and said, you get five free votes, here's how you do it. So I think that it's quite skewed in some way to regard that vote

as a result of sort of ordinary I'm a celebrity viewers. His social media was round the clock telling people how to do it. And I really think that a huge number of the people voting for him weren't actually watching the show. The interesting thing about that is in the old days when we were making Big Brother and all sorts of things, voting was a huge deal. It made an awful lot of money.

There were an awful lot of votes. That's disappeared. It's gone. There are no votes left, really. Well, there were many phone vote scandals. There absolutely were. So now the money is not in there. Now, for the first few weeks of I'm a Celebrity,

you can keep anybody in that you want to keep in. If we could have a campaign, you could have kept Frankie DeTore in if you'd really wanted to. But when you actually get to the last episode, there are a lot of votes because you're voting for the king of the jungle. And you can't really gain. Even with phone banks, it's really quite hard. It's really difficult. But the bookies always had Farage third favourite or fourth favourite all the way through because they know how this show works.

If you've got a group of people who are going to vote for you, you're going to make it quite a long way through. You're going to beat Danielle Harold. If you've got a group of people who are going to vote for you, you're going to make it quite a long way through. You're going to beat Danielle Harold. But it was fascinating, the last episode, when there's the three of them, Tony and Sam, who love each other so much, and Nigel Farage sitting around eating dinner. And Tony and Sam were just talking to each other about what a wonderful time they'd had. And Nigel Farage was sitting there. I think that what I hope is that he's been well treated by the other campmates there,

because you can't not treat people well if you're living together for so long and I sort of wonder if it's the first time he hasn't been either a lauded or be hated by people for a long time and whether that actually might be quite useful for him to have been around ordinary people doing ordinary things treating him like an ordinary human being and I wonder if it might um oh no people don't change but I think I don't think people change. No one changes. No, I don't.

I think people just become more exaggerated versions of themselves in one way or another. And the sooner you learn that in life, the more time you'll save. That's great. Thank you. Now, a few recommendations. Christmas. It's coming. Yes.

I hope people don't get the news from us. No. What now? Breaking. Christmas round the corner. I think a book is the best present because they can be quite cheap, but they genuinely have some meaning. Well, you can give someone a whole new world.

Do you give novels at Christmas? Sometimes I do. I think that booksellers want you to buy a hardback. That's the business we're all in because booksellers, publishers, authors all make more money out of the hardbacks. And so the Christmas gifting market is a huge thing. And, you know, if you've got the money to spend on a hardback, great. But there are lots of cheaper options as well.

And by the way, I would say if you can, if you're going to buy a book, buy it from a local bookshop, which are going great guns at the moment but always worth supporting. And if you're not near one, bookshop.org is sort of like an Amazon but for independent bookshops. Yes. So you can order anything you want and the money can go to a bookshop that you choose. So, yeah, sometimes I give novels. The thing I'm giving someone this year is a book called The Wager

by David Gran. Now, David Gran is the guy who wrote Killers of the Flower Moon that the Scorsese movie is based on. He did The Lost City of Zed so he writes these big uh non-fiction narratives and this is about you know when you read about doomed voyages of ships right he writes about the most doomed voyage of the most doomed ship of all time the ship called the wager and the journey it goes on it's so great he's an amazing writer,

but it's one of those ones that the narrative is so compelling. God, I'm ashamed to say I've never heard of The Wager. It's really, really, really good. If you know anybody in your family who likes that sort of thing, then this is exactly the version of that sort of thing that they will like. So The Wager is my first recommendation. I'm sticking in the area of entertainment. This is my number one book.

Okay, Werner Herzog, the filmmaker, his memoir, which is, of course, called Every Man for Himself and God Against All. Anyone in your life who likes films, if they don't know about Herzog, you'll know so much after this. He is a true restless artist. In our writers room recently, someone was reading this and every morning would come in with genuinely hysterical anecdotes. I mean, he's in a category of one.

You can't believe that a person like this sort of stalks the earth. the earth and obviously you'll you may well know sort of famous stories like Fitzcarraldo the movie he wrote about which is a sort of about a rubber baron who gets this unattainable patch where he can extract rubber from but he has to there you can't get there by river in the conventional way so they had to drag a steamship up a mountain in the Andes and down the other side Herzog makes this movie and he makes the crew do this. I mean, it is completely batshit. This is the sort of thing you're dealing with. The leading man is Klaus Kinski, who Herzog has had a long and kind of tortured relationship with. Kinski is even more mad than usual, gets off the plane and says to the people who are doing hair and makeup,

not even my hairdresser touches my hair. One of the crew is bitten by a snake and saws his own foot off. The head of the local tribe, many of whom played extras throughout the film, eventually offer to kill Kinski for Herzog, who declines just on the basis that otherwise we're never going to get this film finished.

This is just one anecdote. That's the age-old problem for a director, isn't it? With the actors, you want to kill them, but you've got to finish the film. And he's got offers to kill him. Anyway, that's all documented in an amazing documentary called The Burden of Dreams. But if you don't even know about Herzog, a complete original and an amazing person, and often unintentionally, but hysterically funny, because it's so surreal, the things he gets himself into.

What's the title again? Sorry, it is Werner Herzog, and it's every man for himself and god against all and we'll put all these details on our episode page as well um if you do want a novel and if you want something you can pick up for a couple of quid at a secondhand bookshop there's a novel which i think i've given to more people than any other novel in my whole life it's a novel i don't think anyone has ever disliked. And it's J.L. Carr's A Month in the Country. So it's really short. It's going to sound terrible. It's about someone coming back from the First World War

and going up to a Yorkshire village for the summer to uncover a mural in an old church. That's the job that this guy is doing. But J.L. Carr is such an extraordinary writer. It's beautiful. It's funny. It's nostalgic. And it's short, which is amazing.

And I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't love this book. They made a movie of it with Kenneth Branagh and Colin Firth. It's just one of those books that sounds like it's going to be boring, and it's just sort of you absolutely fall in love with it. J.L. Carr wrote whatever he wanted. He did a book about imagining a village team winning the FA Cup final, It's just sort of you absolutely fall in love with it. J.L. Carr wrote whatever he wanted. He did a book about imagining a village team winning the FA Cup final. And he just sort of plots their entire course from the first qualifying round all the way through to the final.

He did not care what he wrote. If he had an idea in his head, he wrote it. But A Month in the Country, I think, is an absolute masterpiece. And I've never met anybody who didn't love that book. Okay, wonderful. My other recommended book is also non-fiction in entertainment and it's A Masquerade, The Lives of Noel Coward, which is by Oliver Soden. And first of all, he's a young author

and I really think that his verve and way of handling the subject completely breathes new life into it. He's also had access to private diaries and things that have not been put in previous biographies. And it's an absolutely extraordinary story of someone who, some ways people felt was you know quite they were quite conventional he wrote drawing room comedies in their view or whatever but in fact he makes a really great case all of a sudden of how much more radical and subverse he is he obviously has to live this incredibly kind of secretive and actually very kind of distressing private life in lots of

ways but there are also moments of of sort of high camp hilarity. His adolescence, if you ever have met an obnoxious teenager, I strongly doubt you've ever met one quite as obnoxious as this. Even though he was just a sort of suburban boy who loved theatre, I really recommend it. It's a fascinating look at somebody who is still relevant 50 years after his death, surprisingly often given some of the things he covered. These are some good recommendations, I think,

because they're very different. I'm going to finish with a couple of other things. Ade Edmondson's autobiography is amazing. It's absolutely brilliant. Berserker. If you've got a young adult, sort of nine onwards, Catherine Rundell's Impossible Creatures.

She's like the new J.R.R. Tolkien or Philip Pullman. She's the new everything. She's absolutely wonderful. She won the Bailey Gifford Prize for this extraordinarily intricate and incredibly exciting biography of John Donne, but she also writes children's books. Yeah, exactly. I would strongly recommend

it. And Christmas No. 1, I think this year, talking of Christmas No. 1, the book world has a Christmas No. 1, and I think it's going to come completely out of left field, and it's an object in, if you give something a great title, you might just be okay. remember those logic puzzle books you used to do where you'd have to work out like who killed someone or what room something was in it and it'd be like a man with a hat is not carrying an umbrella or something so you cross little things out yes so there's this guy gf kerber

who's done a whole book full of these these logic puzzles which are fun if you like a logic puzzle um but it's called Myrtle. And it's become an absolute phenomenon. It's sold every week. It's selling more and more and more. And I think that's going to be Christmas number one. And that's a perfect stocking filler for anyone who likes playing a little game, Myrtle.

Oh, that's fantastic. I will do that. And that's us done, I think. Did I say at the beginning? You told me you had a board game to recommend. Yes, shall I do that? Can you please? To finish off with?

Because it's hard with board games, isn't it? I like a bit of triv and stuff like that. But when you've got family around the different generations, my daughter bought us this board game, and it's called Wavelength. And I won't go into the rules, because rules of board games are absolutely incomprehensible. But it's sort of a mind-reading game that you have to try and get people to read your mind with the use of a plastic dial. And it's funny, and it's one of those ones

where there's lots of talking, and it's a really good team game. You've got 4v4 or something like that. It's a really, really great game, and so few games come along. I always used to get in trouble because the pointless board game was so terrible, and people always thought it was my fault,

and it has never anything to do with me because I agreed, I'd looked at it, and the rules are absolutely incomprehensible. So they at least have the answer things. You could use those. But wavelength, I thought was great. Speaking of mind reading games, there's also a kind of small card game that's really good that you play in a team called The Mind. And it is so incredibly simple.

I won't even bother explaining the rules. But that is absolutely great. And it's really weird. And it makes you think about human behavior and herd behavior. And it couldn't be simpler. And I thoroughly, thoroughly recommend that. So wavelength and the mind. I mean, Merry Christmas, everybody. Absolutely. Next week, I think we'll be talking a little bit more about Christmas, maybe looking at Christmas telly and all that kind of all that kind of stuff. One of the things we'd love you to do is send us any questions because we are going to do a special

questions episode over christmas and new year and the address is the rest is entertainment at gmail.com it can be anything i mean i would ask if it were me i would say and someone is welcome to steal this question richard is it true that you don't know who does the murders in your books until the last chapter i was suspect to answer then i thought but answer. What a waste. Save it. And I would essentially ask Marina her opinion on pretty much any celebrity in the world because it's always brilliant.

Pick anyone you're fascinated with. And I won't hold back. But anything, movies, books, film, TV, culture, gossip. How things work inside the industry. Ask away. We can't wait to hear from you. Ask Marina about Omid Scobie the guy who wrote

the new Royal Family book because gripped by this character she was talking about him beforehand so you know rather than me ask you can do that

anything like that you fancy so it's therestisentertainment at gmail.com see you next week everyone bye bye © transcript Emily Beynon