The Rest Is Entertainment - Who is Banksy?

Episode Date: August 14, 2024

Banksy has been more active than ever this past week, but how has he kept his identity hidden for so long? Do Richard and Marina use their own signatures when giving autographs? Why has the UK regained its status as a premier movie shooting location and what promoted it to change? Just a few of the questions answered on this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment with Richard Osman and Marina Hyde. Twitter: @‌restisents Instagram: @‌restisentertainment YouTube: @‌therestisentertainment Email: [e-mail] Producers: Neil Fearn + Joey McCarthy Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport 🌏 Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/trie  It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✅ Redeem data in 1GB increments. Save by mixing to lower cost plan and supplementing with rolled data. Downgrades effective following month. Full terms at Sky.com/mobile. Fastest growing 2021 to 2023. Verify at sky.com/mobileclaims. For more information about how you can use Snapchat Family Centre to help your teenagers stay safe online visit https://parents.snapchat.com/en-GB/parental-controls Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to this edition of the Rest is Entertainment questions and answers edition. Beautiful. I'm Richard Osman. And I'm Marina Height. What are we talking about today, Marina? All sorts of fun things. Shall we just move straight into our question? Let's go straight into our question. Is that crazy? James Geyer has a question. My question regards Banksy and the extent to which the media and police keep his identity hidden. There must be dozens of people who

know his identity But don't reveal it and surely he's been reported to police by concerned neighbors regarding potential graffiti over the years Does his agent pay to maintain the secrecy? Oh, right. Okay James Well, they definitely don't pay to maintain secrets and I don't actually think it is much of a secret You could Google it pretty quickly. I think The Daily Mail has run stories about the the same story about it over many, many years now as to who it is. I think in lots of, but don't Google it if you don't want to know, because I think it's a little bit like, you know, do you actually want to know who wins

Tracers before us? Not really. Lots of people don't want to know. They like the idea and I guess they respect the idea that he doesn't want to be known as an artist in that way. And I suppose the form of art that he uses stenciling helps him get away quickly yes so I don't think he hangs around for a huge amount of time yeah he's not sitting by a canal with with with watercolours slowly yeah yes and he's put some new ones up around London the girl with the balloon was voted Britain's most popular artwork did you know that was it well the one that went through the shredder for 18 million, I like that. You know, I've found, look at your face.

I think he is a brilliant propagandist. To me it's just, its meaning is immediately revealed to you. To the point of perhaps being trite or glib at times, I mean surely. It's so obvious that it doesn't require any thought, but maybe that's the point. Well yes, I'm a big fan of Banksy. And you're right, I think on the immediacy of the works, it's not, you're not looking at 15 different layers, but the career path is extraordinary as a piece of art. I think the fact that the art is public or is often public

and sort of can go viral, that's part of the point. The fact that he has kept his identity secret, I think is an extraordinary part of the point. I think the whole thing is a piece of performers art and every single stent. So there's just, it's almost like one big canvas and every stent is like a tiny bit of it. So I like him. I think he's incredibly talented. But to speak to James's question, yes, you can find out who he is, but it's been pretty well kept under wraps. I suspect they put out some SEO stuff that kind of puts out other names there. The guy from Massive Attack has always mentioned he's possibly Banksy and isn't so lots of other names

are out there but yeah there's one particular name if you want to go online spoil it for yourself you absolutely can do but yeah I think it's a bit of fun isn't it when Banksy turns up in your town? It's a sort of populist form of art, it works really well in media which is why it's so shared so it's kept pace with I guess changing media. I think he's sort of a war hole for our times which is he's making a comment on what art is, he's making a comment on what celebrity is, he's making a comment on what we value and I think fair play to him. I wonder, I assume with things the the 18 million print that he sold

I don't know if that belonged to someone else. I think he was involved in it wasn't it because So he's making he's making good money as well And it's easier to hide if you've got a bit of cash behind you and at some point Presumably the opportunity of a big reveal Yeah I guess if it becomes part of the canvas as you say But you can only do it once and I'm not so sure, I would have thought it would be better to try and stay under the radar

as much as he is under the radar. But I know that the person who it is, or let's assume that it is, even his parents are going, no, no, we don't have a son with that name. So he obviously has a group of people around him who are part of the whole story, you know, part of the gang. And I do genuinely think over the amount of years he's been going, that's pretty impressive undertaking. Because you could go on this morning and just say, look, it's me, it's me with him, it's me doing some of the things with him. You know, it'd be very easy to break that spell. And amazing that no one has broken that spell in today's culture.

It's part of the fascination because actually there are so few people in the modern era who think that silence is an intriguing statement and not being a celebrity and very very few people say nothing at all and he's one of those and I think that for that reason it varnishes the alio. It's like doing a whole series of The Masked Singer but no one ever takes their heads off. It's like doing a whole series of The Masked Singer but no one ever takes their heads off. That's a show I might pitch. And just so for everyone, I bet that was former Home Secretary Alan Johnson, but we'll never know. Here is one for you Richard from Sam Donaldson about ghost writers.

How are ghost writers chosen? I envision a panel of them meeting speed dating style with the celebrity author, but maybe the writer is chosen by the publisher. It can be a bit of both actually is the truth so we're talking about ghost writers for people's autobiographies there's a separate thing which is ghost written fiction which we'll get on to at the end but the very much you know the more visible one is you know if a rugby player or a motorcycle this writes an autobiography they write it with someone that is a ghost writer and it can happen a variety of ways often

the celebrity when they pitch the book will have a ghostwriter attached already a friend of theirs or you know You have a whole life in sport or politics or music or anything and by and large you've been interviewed a number of times By a lot of different journalists and there'll be a couple that you get on with or who's writing you like and so you will say To them will you come in with me to the publishers, will you help me not to get a proposal and you said it with the ghostwriter attached. That's very, very common only because most people with autobiographies work in worlds where they come across journalists a lot. If that is not the case and often isn't, if there's, you know, say after the Olympics, say someone wants to write Keely Hodgson's biography, and Keely Hodgson's biography and Keely Hodgson

doesn't have a journalist attached but just a publisher says to her, we'll give you 200,000 pounds to your biography, are you interested? To which of course she would probably say, I'm much too young, but if she wants a bit of cash, you say, yeah, I'll do it. And on that situation, then publishers will go to agents and say, this is who we've got, this Keely Hodgson, who have you got on your roster who can write this thing and every most agents have got good ghost writers. A great guy called Boris Starling who writes a lot of the rugby autobiographies, Sam Warburton's one, you know, so you've got people like this who are just sensationally great writers and you know

you team them up with someone great and on that instance the writers will all come in to meet Keely Hodgkinson by the way I'm absolutely taking Keely Hodgkinson's name in vain but you know what I mean I'm just saying if it's if it's they'll come in to meet and and try and have a you know chemistry with that person and if you do if they meet and they get on with each other then boom contracts are signed and they'll sit and interview that person over a series of days, a series of weeks, and then you can do quite a fast turnaround thing with ghostwriters. So often it'll be a favorite journalist of the person.

And there's very good money to be made in these things, especially ones that are not kind of, that people haven't pretended they've written themselves. You know, usually in biographies, we know that someone's helped us in the Prince Harry biography and stuff like that, we know. J.R. Moringa, and they were chosen. He was chosen because his Agassi book, Andre Agassi's book is amazing. And you wouldn't think, like,

I mean, Agassi was a great tennis player and he was a showman and all sorts of things, but the biography, the autobiography, is absolutely brilliant. Now, Agassi actually said, realized how good it was and said, mate, your name should be on the cover too. And he said, no, no, no, I'm here for, I'm hard for this reason. But the greatest ghost writers and clearly what happened with Meringer, who gave

some interviews after having done The Spare, which became the fastest selling book of all time or whatever it was, said, you know, he really pushed Prince Harry to say more and more about certain things. And often the really sensational stuff or the very raw stuff comes right at the end. It's not like you've talked through their life and you go back to things and right at the end, when you've built up a long time of talking to someone, maybe in their house over many, many hours, over some months, they come back and they say, there's a sort of dump of all the really intense personal stuff that's going to be the bit that is in all the headlines and is filleted out of the serializations and then everybody talks about. And again that's the skill of a ghostwriter. So the ghostwriter isn't

you sit and listen to you know someone tell you their life story and then I move to Knott's Forest and write it all down in order. It's someone who can really really get inside someone's personality and could ask interesting questions and can get all the biographical stuff and get all the stuff in order, but then starts going much deeper about why are they a sports person? You know, what does ambition mean to them? What do they regret? What does regret mean? All of that really interesting stuff. And that's what a great ghost writer does. They're not just a great writer, they're a great interviewer. And so if you get the right ghostwriter and the right celebrity, you've got yourself a huge hit. So that's by and large is what happens, they either come with them or there is, as

Sam says, sort of a speed dating session, absolutely right, it's exactly what happens. Now there's a different world which is ghostwriting in fiction. I saw that lovely stat the other day that Katie Price's first novel came out, it outsold the entire Booker Prize long list for that year. And she will be the first to say that someone wrote that for her and it happens a lot with them. I think she frequently said she hadn't read any of her autobiographies. Yes, so sometimes in fiction, if they've got somebody who they want to write a book, they will go to agents, but much in a much quieter way. And so we talked about this, celebrities,

authors who aren't even authors. Yeah. And by the way, almost all of them are. So you know, you're Bob Mortimer's and Ruth Jones is and the people you would imagine write their own books do write their own books. The detective game Richard, because there are some out there who do absolutely none of it. Yeah. And by the way, and some of them admit to it as well. But so there's a small Venn diagram in the middle of people who don't write it themselves, but don't admit to it. But listen, those books are not selling huge amounts. So we needn't worry too much about it.

Yeah, so in that world, if you do get teamed up with a celebrity and you've got to write a romcom, that's a super quick turnaround. You'll say to the agent, here's the name, here's the vibe of what we want them to do, because this is what they're known for. You have the agent, here's the name, here's the vibe of what we want them to do because this is what they're known for. You have a month and here's the money. Do you have someone who will do this for you? And if you've got a month's spare and you're good at writing rom-coms or you're good at writing something else, then off you

go and do it. Ghost writing always sounds a bit dodgy, but by and large it's the opposite. By and large it's in that non-fiction world. It's absolutely above board. You get people who are unbelievably brilliant at it. It's very well paid if you do it at the right time for the right people and you get a proper back end. So it's an incredibly noble profession, the profession of ghost writing, particularly in nonfiction, and it's not a dirty secret in the world of publishing. It's absolutely up front and centre. We haven't done a top three for a while, so let's do a quick one of those before the break.

Jimmy King, great name, that's a great character name in a book. I love that Jimmy if you don't mind. Jimmy King says, what are your top three films with the word three in the title? Not including, this is good, Jimmy knows his business, but not including films that are the third of a trilogy. So no, Aliens 3, Godfather Part 3, part 3 Iron Man 3 etc well the last of two would certainly never have been included but Iron Man 3 no I love Iron Man 3 so much I know you do I know you do with my pals of Ben Kingsley right I'm gonna do a top three okay I'm gonna do a top three it's happening this is confusing though because it's also by the way is a great shout Jimmy King and that is in at number three. So Jimmy gives us his three and three amigos,

he's putting in yours. I'm putting in at number three, three amigos, because I have to. Number three, three amigos. Now, number two, I am doing, this is controversial, there's three, the three colors trilogy, Christoph Koslowski. Yes, yes. Wow. Okay. First time Yes, yes. First time on the podcast. So that's Three Colours Blue, Three Colours White, Three Colours Red. And talk us through, because that's the very definition of art house. I only remember them from thinking, if ever I need to refer to a film that sounds like

an art house film, I'll do the Three Colours trilogy. Just do Three Colours trilogy, yeah. Okay, so Juliette Binoche, Julie Delpy, Irren Jacob, watch them. They are amazing. They're amazing. What happens in them? Helicopter chases? Yeah, a lot of helicopter chases. Anyway, they're brilliant. So that's number two. And at number one, and again, this might be controversial because it's not literally the three. Oh my god. But this should be in all top threes of everything really. The third man. The third man, one of the greatest movies of all time.

I've really recently watched it all over again because someone told me something which actually didn't turn out to be accurate saying that the light went, when you first see Harry Lyme that you see the light go on and then you also see it turned on again in the window and I wanted to see if that actually happened because it's a little bit of sleight of hand of filmmaking but it doesn't happen but it is the most, that's a tiny little detail, but it is the most wonderful film and if you haven't seen it I strongly urge you to watch The Third Man. So, but your number one films are the three in the title.

Yeah, it's The Third Man. I can't wait. You're going to give me that. You're going to give me that. That's ridiculous. We're going to a break. We're going to a break now. Hello, this is William Dorempel here from the Empire podcast, also from Gohanger. And I'm here to tell you about a new mini series we've just done on the Vietnam War. I'm from the generation of kids that grew up on Apocalypse Now and went to bed memorizing phrases like, I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

But this series, I think, really is something we really get to the heart of this conflict that consumed so much of both American and Southeast Asian post-war history. In America, it consumed six presidents and led to America dropping more bombs on Vietnam than they did in the entirety of the Second World War and the loss of millions of lives. It also, of course, encouraged the cynicism about government that has become so prevalent in modern America and its politics. And it harvested this incredible host of films and literary works of art. I grew up on books like Dispatches, and we've mentioned Apocalypse Now, but also The Deer Hunter, Sorrow of War, Full Metal Jacket, it goes on and on and on.

So if you want to know more about this war and the titanic scar it left across the whole of Southeast Asia, but also very much on the American psyche We have left an excerpt from the miniseries at the end of this episode for you to enjoy Welcome back everybody. Welcome back everyone. We haven't stopped rowing about third and three. But we're going to pour soothing oil on this now with a question about Hey Dougie, Richard. Grace Ko says, like many toddler parents, I have watched countless episodes of Hey Dougie, me too. I always end up wondering about the actors that voice the children. There are hundreds of episodes of Dougie and the voice acting from these children is really good. When children are voicing characters on these shows,

do they have to record lots in one go before their voices deepen? It's a terrific question. I know all about Pepper Pig. And I assume it's very similar to Hey Dougie. So forgive me, Grace, for having different skill set. Zander is in all of them. He's like, yeah, every single time.

His entire life is having to record things for people as Daddy Dog. He's always like yeah, every single time. His entire life is having to record things for people as daddy dog. He's always like, I'm daddy dog. It's your birthday. Just like absolutely nonstop. But so for Peppa Pig, I can tell you they record, they do record lots and lots of episodes in one go. I'm going to shock you as well, Grace. They do get replaced as well. There are, I'm so sorry to break that to you, but you know, that's show business. That's the way it works. They do record a lot of episodes all in one go.

They absolutely do that. And by and large, those shows also, they would record in isolation. So there'd be absolutely different labor laws and timing laws for children. So they would go in, have a lot of fun, really, really enjoy themselves and record a lot in one go. They do have to replace those voices after a period of time of course, because children's voices change. There's been I think there's over 200 episodes been

running since 2004 and there have been four actresses who played Pepper in that time. The first of whom is now sort of in her mid-20s which was Lily Snowden-Fine who's the daughter of the original animators. Then there was Cecily Bloom, who was 17 years old and did it for only one season. Then Harley Bird, she did the role for 13 years, 185 episodes from the age of five. She became the youngest person ever to win a BAFTA. Harley Bird. And Amelie B. Smith joined in 2020. She was nine years old and now currently plays plays the pig So I'm going to assume that the same is the same in hey, Dougie and bluey the voices of bluey and bingo They're kept absolutely secret. They're voiced by children of their friends and production crews. So that's a rotating cast of children

Yeah, there's those things they're incredible industries all, all of them, but yeah, everyone records in isolation. So if you're like a comic or a voice actor, that's a lovely gig. But yeah, for the kids, there's a bit more churn. Here is one for you, Marina Simon Marshall asks, why has the UK regained its status as a movie shoot venue? What promoted it to change? This is a very good question because it is now massive. I think the statistic is that last year, films produced in the UK was 22.5% of the whole global box office. It's a combination of lots of things. We have amazing facilities here now, but how did we really get them?

Back in the old days, people like Stanley Kubrick came and based themselves in the sixties in the UK, Americans and Richard Lester, other people like that. They thought it was a great place to make movies. And then by the time you get to the seventies, you know, Superman was made at Pinewood, Star Wars was at Elstree. And they, we were, we had this real special effects expertise, which was sort of sort of counterintuitive in a way. When we, whenever we used to film pointless at Elstree, we were always in the same studio where they had the, the moon of Endor and Ewoks

had been flying around the studio. So we always loved that. And then Robin Asquith came on and said, yeah, we also did Confessions of a Window Cleaner here. It's been like, wow, we've seen it all. Well, so we had all that, but then in the 70s, American money basically withdrew because they started creating their own tax credit scheme in their country. And 80s was a real slump, which isn't to say that we didn't have great films made in this

country in the 80s, things like My Beautiful Laundrette or With Nail or Merchant Ivory things but in the 1990s basically with new labor government support returns and they start doing tax relief but one of the biggest things that really happened was that J.K. Rowling said if you're going to make films of the Harry, they must be made here in the UK. And as a result, there was nine solid years. They did it at Leavesden, which I work a lot at, and it used to be an aerodrome and a Rolls Royce factory. The studios were there for nine solid years.

Thousands of British people, amazing crews, and craftspeople worked on those. If you ever have done the Harry Potter Studio Tour, I love doing it. The stuff is so beautifully made. Yeah. I think it's extraordinary. Yeah, Chris Columbus has said he literally worked on it

like nonstop for like, he was gonna just carry on. He just said, I got to the point where he said it was just the whole thing was such an extraordinary operation, just a huge amount of people. So he gave up after two. But again, that thing of he came over, did that, absolutely loved it. Wants to come back to Britain all the time. And we proved ourselves as a place where there were of people that so he gave up after too but again that thing of he came over did that absolutely loved it wants to come back to britain and we proved ourselves as a place where there were

fantastic craft people and we also had the post-production stuff you've got these big big powerhouses like frame store which do vfx and various types of editing and then warner brothers basically bought leveston um at the end of that they didn't need to but they by that point had liked it so much and we'd sort of proved ourselves as a place where you could do it end to end. Now there are more, I think I'm right in saying that there are more sound stages here now just in that sort of corridor around London than there are in LA, which is extraordinary. And huge numbers of things. We talked last week about how Marvel are doing the Fantastic Four here and both then the New Avengers

movies. We all had things like the Bond franchise but Mission Impossible gets made here. There was so much stuff has happened here so basically J.K. Rowling was a big part by insisting it had to happen here but then what they have started to do is do the tax incentives and so many movie productions chase incentives around the world. The other big thing, the third piece of this jigsaw is you need an Anglophone crew. It's really helpful for the Americans that this is why Australia, the UK and places like that.

South Africa is big. South Africa is big because if the crew speak English, it is just obviously helpful on a very, very tight, where everything's very expensive. It just removes one piece of friction. Those are the places which have really taken off. But the UK is really at the forefront of that and it's such a successful business. I mean, I think that as many tax breaks as possible should be offered because it brings so much more money in than it takes out.

It's funny that thing of, you know, tax breaks made a huge difference. It's like watching the Olympics and seeing the medal table. And going back to 1996 and Britain won kind of 16 medals overall, they won one gold and then you think, oh then the national lottery money started coming through and suddenly we're like, you know, right up on the middle table, you know, where you can leverage money from government sources or lottery sources, it makes a huge difference. In a planned way. In a planned way and it makes Britain such a happier, more entertaining place, but yeah, tax incentives

plus the incredible skill set we've had over here for many years are a potent combination. I wasn't aware of the JK Rowling bit of that jigsaw bit. And dare I say that the non-unionisation, it's not the same. We don't have unionised crews in the same way that where it's incredibly unionised the American entertainment industry and I think you can probably benefit but probably think this yeah I don't have to do it but equally don't go a minute over your shooting time otherwise you'll know about it you're owner and it is unionized you have to agree and the crew has to agree but it's not the same as in America

yeah a fantastic name now Richard Rod Begbie listen I'd have it if if Irvin Irvine Welsh hadn't got there first. Do celebrities sign their name differently when doing an autograph versus when they're signing a contract? If I buy a signed copy of your book, Richard, could I be one step closer to figuring out how to forge my way into your will? So clever, Rod. Yes, God, when you sign books, I haven't done many this year because last year I did like 46,000 or something. So this year I've opted to do them for America, but I'm going to do some individual signing. You're post-signing now.

Sometimes you sit there for a whole week and you're signing and signing. It sent me insane. I did it once for two days and it sent me absolutely insane. I couldn't properly speak. I mean, that's what Jack Nicholson's doing in The Shining, isn't it? Essentially, you're doing even fewer words than he's saying. Yeah, he's signing tip-ins. Yeah. Yes, my signature is certainly, I have a very efficient signing signature, which doesn't look like my official signature.

And I got to a point where I'd done a few, I was thinking, no, that's literally unintelligible now, so then I have to remember just to make it look a bit more like my own name. The thing is, but here's the interesting thing, is you don't sign contracts anymore. You sign them all online. Yeah. And so your signature is like an absolute mess and it looks like a scroll. So yeah, there's, you know, you never sort of have official versions of your signature. I sign mine in a name that doesn't actually exist. I just like, Marina Hyde isn't actually my name. I've never created any form of name. Is it okay though? Sorry, anyone I've ever

signed a contract in, I think that is legally my name in any way. No way, that's great. And I've signed it all the time, but as I say, it's just a, you just type it into Adobe's site, don't you? Yeah, you really do, and it which is, I mean, honestly, that's lovely, you don't have to print anything out. You do think, yeah, sometimes you do think, and can this be right? There's lots of cons that go around the publishing world, especially when they know that if you've been nominated for an award or something like that or you've just been assigned a deal with a particular country, they'll send you something through and say oh this is with a tax office from Bulgaria or oh I'm the treasurer of this award that I've seen you just won with just about the YU, the 50,000, we need you to do X, Y or

Z and a lot of people have been caught out with those just because, you open Adobe, you just sign it and send it back off. And then the agent goes, no, they've already sent the money, what have you just signed? And they're suddenly like, oh, no. That's why I have you. Yes, exactly, that's what agents are for. So yeah, I have a very efficient signature on signed books.

I'll say that. A friend of mine who's an author and is very funny and knows all the authors, sometimes gets the Christmas and thinks, oh, I've got to do it, I should say that. A friend of mine who's an author and is very funny and knows all the authors, sometimes gets the Christmas and thinks, I've got to do it, I should do a signed copy of this, don't I? I can do Margaret Atwood's signature. Whoa.

It is a lovely thing to do. A signed book is a really lovely thing to have, I think, because it's a book you want anyway, it's a really lovely present to give and all of that kind of stuff. Sometimes I look down at one I've just signed and just go, imagine if you had that at Christmas and that's my signature. Absolutely furious, I always tear it up and start again with the next one. But no, if ever I had to sign an

actual contract I would be very florid and really spell out my name properly. But my God it's... A wax seal I feel you should have now. You're moving into your wax seal years. That's a really good idea. And a thumbprint. A thumbprint, perfect. But my author signature and my actual signature are very different. Poor Zander, when we used to write the pointless books, he has to write Alexander Armstrong every time he signs something. And it takes forever.

That is quite long. Yeah, that's really, it's really long. Yeah, and my agent said to me, why don't you develop an author signature? I said, like, I've got to do these in 48 hours. I can't develop anything new now. I'm going to have to work with what I've got, which is, I don't even have a signature in real life. I just write my name. So it did, it took me a long time.

And that's perhaps why I did feel insane by the end of it. And you don't even write your name. You write someone else. You write a fake name. Yeah, it's like a pretend name. Oh. That apparently is legal. So your real name is Marina Abramovich right?

It's Marina Abramovich, yeah. I just try to keep the art world separate. Yeah yeah yeah yeah I get it. I get it. Is that us done? I think that is. What lovely questions. Oh yeah do you keep sending them in, the more the merrier. The rest is entertainment at gmail.com. And we will see you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday. So here's the clip from our Vietnam series. I had expected that when it started, Americans being Americans would be filled with hubris. Nobody's going to be able to stop our military firepower from succeeding. How are these pajama clad gorillas possibly going to stop us? I had expected confidence on the part of US commanders.

Some of them had it, but certainly most of the civilians, Johnson himself, Robert McNamara, who's the secretary of defense, George Bundy, national security advisor, the top leadership in Congress. There is a gloomy realism here about what lies ahead. And even now, think about this, even now, Lyndon Johnson tells his wife, Lady Bird, I'm trapped on Vietnam. Whichever way I go, I'm gonna lose. He understands right at the beginning

that this is gonna be his downfall. And this is 1965. To hear the full series, just search Empire, wherever you get your podcasts.