The Ryen Russillo Podcast - NFLPA President Eric Winston and Executive Director DeMaurice Smith on the New CBA | Dual Threat With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 12, 2019

Russillo talks with Eric Winston and DeMaurice Smith of the NFL Players Association about the upcoming collective bargaining agreement set to take effect after the 2020 season. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

all right everybody what's going on another edition of dual threat from the ringer podcast network we have do we get pearl jam cleared for this one too yet or no i'll get back to you on that okay let us know we have a big one for you. I love CBA talk, not the basketball league, but whenever it's the NFL stuff, NBA. Hell, I even like a good hockey CBA discussion. I'm serious. I used to be really into it, 03, 04. But as of now, the NFL seasons are safe,

at least for 19 and 20. The CBA expires after the 2020 season. So we have really special guests lined up for you today. Demora Smith, who is the executive director of the NFLPA. And he has been in that role since 2009. And Eric Winston, who is the president

of the NFLPA executive committee. And he's a guy that first was drafted back in 2006. So we're going to have both guys joining us from their offices. And we're going to talk a little bit about the upcoming issues, whether it is just about a money split, which some people have suggested that's all it is, but not these guys. We'll talk about younger players and access to coaches, the rookie scale contract stuff, weed.

Weed is on the agenda. All sorts of stuff. So I think it's going to be a lot of fun because I always find this interesting. And I think if you're a fan, you can educate yourself on it and it'll make you understand transactions better. It'll make you understand all sorts of you'll just for the NBA. If you're an NBA fan, I can't imagine not understanding the contract stuff because basically more I would say half the NBA decisions. If not, I don't even know what the percentages on it. You just go, all right, I wonder what that means.

Like, let me understand the CBA a little bit more. So I'm excited to talk with these guys, and we'll see if we can challenge them a little bit on that. Before we do that, raise your game with MSX by Michael Strahan. Athletic-inspired functional pieces designed for guys who are always on the go. Available exclusively at JCPenney. From working out, playing golf, or just relaxing, MSX by Michael Strahan has you covered.

MSX includes MSX basics, pants, shorts, shirts, sweatshirts, and outerwear. Big and tall, and boy sizes too if your kid's a giant. MSX by Michael Strahan is available exclusively at JCPenney. Visit a store near you or go to jcp.com. Let's welcome in now, Demore Smith and Eric Winston. Demore, we'll start with you. You know, as we look at the CBA expiring after the 2020 season, and I'll keep reading stuff where it's like, man, this is way less contentious than back in 2011.

And then I'll read, hey, everybody relax here. There's still a deal that needs to be done. It needs to be a new deal. So it's kind of funny from the outside to read one thing saying everything's great. Let's just start here. How different is the feeling right now, still a year and a half away from any kind of deadline, in comparison to a work stoppage in 2011 leading up to that moment? Well, in 2009, you know, the owners had already come out and said that they were going to lock us out.

So there was a certainty of a work stoppage, even if other people in the media or even some of our players didn't think that it was going to happen. I believed it was going to happen. The core leadership believed it was going to happen in 2009. So there was a certain certainty of a work stoppage. The only thing I can do is compare the opportunity to try to get something done now against a certainty of a work stoppage back in 2011. And I don't know if there's as much of a difference in feeling as it is a difference in knowing what's going to happen. Eric, I saw when you were tweeted out, basically like, quote, any conversation with the NFL owners would be a renegotiation for a new deal, not an extension. So that leads me to think that there are still things like both sides in any kind of agreement that maybe still bother you from the 2011 agreement as the

players it's not necessarily bothering you but you're you're dealing with a totally new body of players that are looking at things in different ways we're 10 years or close to you know coming up on 10 years down the road from that and the world's changed and so there's just different things i think that these guys are looking for that they hold important than maybe the guys in 11. And so I just look at it as a thing where we're not going to rubber stamp anything. There might be items that are very similar. And if you look at one, whatever, work rules, just say that, you could look and say, oh, man, that looks exactly the same or that looks very similar.

And then you could go to the next article and it could be something totally different so well you know we're gonna i guess my point there more than anything was the guys are into it the guys are serious about it and they want to look at everything through fresh eyes and i don't think that's a bad thing okay demorris what's the number one issue what's the number one thing that you guys have to do on this new cba for the players i know that everybody likes to boil it down to the number one issue, but, you know, look at our business. There are changing landscapes on gambling. We have always cared about the health and safety of our players.

We look at stadium construction. We look at stadium construction. We look at offseason. We always look at ways to make sure that more cash is going into the pockets of our players. So I don't think that it's, I don't live in a world, Eric doesn't live in a world where we have the luxury of saying there's a number one issue. I will say that when it comes to the discussions we've had with our leadership, one issue that has emerged is how do we take care of core players better? And that's, you know, whether it's a core player who plays the average of three years or a person who makes minimum salary or a player who's not a superstar. We have spent a lot of time looking at the issues that

affect the, let's just call it the average player. And we certainly want to focus on making sure that that player's life is better under this CBA than it was under the previous CBA. And that's no different than the way that our union has looked at issues over decades. Eric, anything to follow up on that? No, I mean, I think that's right. Our guys don't live in the siloed world where there's a ranking system, right? I'm sure there's a handful of things, but we constantly message the wages, hours, working conditions and health and safety. And guys and different guys will tell you different things that they care about the most, just like anybody. Right. I mean, everybody has things that they're a little bit more passionate about than the other.

But I don't think we necessarily the leadership has that luxury. Right. We've got to look out for everybody. And so we look at it through a big macro lens and not trying to boil things down. I think when you do that, then you really leave some issues on the table that deserve a ton of attention and they become secondary or tertiary issues. Okay. So you just, there's a bunch of things that I want to hit on here. And, you know, as we all know, no matter where you work, what your working conditions are, we can find things that we wish were better. And I can understand the players years ago when we're starting to be more aware

of just the safety of this game and saying, we just can't be hitting as much. We need less pad time and some of the changes. And now coaches are freaking out about this going, we need more time. We especially need more time with younger players. DeMorris, you or Eric, No. No. I mean, I was only being half-joking there when I just said one word, no. I'm not sure you even have. Yeah, I mean, here was only being half-joking there when I just said one word, no. I'm not sure you even have. Yeah, I mean, here's the thing.

You know, listen, the coaches work for the owners. If they think it's such an imperative to save the game, to do these things, then don't message that to the owners. And those will come up in bargaining. don't message that to the owners and, and those will, those will come up in bargaining. But at the end of the day, listen, I still haven't found the day where these guys are saying, you know what? You're right. Let's, let's not hit you enough.

Let's be proactive in this, right? I haven't seen that from a lot of coaches. Now I will say some of them are getting better and I don't want to lump in everybody together, but unfortunately, a lot of these rules have to be to the lowest common denominator because they won't police themselves. And so when we look at our responsibility as a union, it's not to a couple of clubs. It's not to eight or nine or 10 clubs. It's to every guy in the NFL. And so we have to paint bright lines, and we have to make sure that guys on every single ball club are taken care of the way they're supposed to be, and that there aren't two re. And that was a big – there was a lot of conversations around how can we prevent that from happening, and this is what you have. The only thing I would add to that is, you know, there's two ways of looking at it,

and I frankly think that it's the right two ways to look at it. There was a time in the National Football League where players were really off the entire offseason. And that might have been, you know, a few decades ago, but, you know, I grew up watching those teams. I grew up watching those players, and I frankly think it was pretty good football. The other way of looking at it is,

what do you say to the player who was forced to work beyond the ordinary workday? Because one coach said that he would have the opportunity to keep his job if he worked beyond the normal workday and blew out his shoulder. Not one group of coaches stood up to police, you know, as Eric would say, the renegade coach. No owner stepped in to protect the players from that overwork. The only entity here to make sure that what's fair and what's right is afforded to the players as they use. And I know that might not make every coach happy, but when it comes to our player leadership, to echo what Eric said,

I have yet to hear from a player or a large group of players who say that we need to work more. Ryan, I'll give you a great kind of antidote slash conversation I had. It was coming out, so we were locked out, and so obviously nothing happened that offseason. We come back to football in 11. We play the season, and then we're at the combine, and we're having a meeting with coaches. And one coach comes up to me and says, know what i'll tell you what you know coming into camp i didn't know what to expect but you guys you guys were ready to play you guys came back after camp

ready to play and i kind of part of me and not part of me but most of me were like yeah we're professionals what do you think we were going to do but b the next thing he said to me was yeah but we got to change these work rules and we got to have more time with you guys so it just goes to show you that it's almost in their dna they can't help themselves right they want to have it it's like this needful thing that even though every guy after the workout not every guy after the lockout but he was even admitting how ready these guys were to go into camp and ready to play and in shape he still thought oh we but we still need we still need more offseason it's it's just uh i don't know if it's in their dna i don't know if they can't help themselves but i think coaches are always going to complain about it and they're always going to point to something that, quite frankly, takes them off the hook.

And when you start talking about some of these issues, that's what it is, I think, a lot of times. GYA, oh, well, it's not that I didn't draft the right guy. It's not that I didn't have my team ready. It's that I just didn't have enough time to get them ready. Or if we would have had a couple more padded practices, then all of a sudden we would have been able to beat that team. I just, frankly, playing for as long as I did, I don't see it. Has the rookie scale

had the kind of impact you wanted on how money's dispersed now since we've capped kind of what rookies can make being drafted? Well, it certainly has pushed more money down to the draftees below the third round. It's put more money into veterans' pockets in our locker room, and that was the goal.

And I'll give you also, this is always a funny conversation that I always hear people having, and yet they don't relate the two. What's the conversation? What kind of quarterback do you need to have other than Tom Brady? What kind of quarterback do you need to have to win the Super Bowl these days? What does everybody say?

Rookie quarterback. You got to have a rookie quarterback. Why do you have to have a rookie quarterback? Because he's not making any money. I still think this theory is so overblown. He's not making any money, right? So you're saying the rookie quarterback is not making any money, and still think this theory is so overblown. Well, so maybe he's not making any money, right? So you're saying the rookie quarterback is not making any money, and so all

the other money goes to everybody else on the team. That's how you have to win the Super Bowl, obviously, caveat the Patriots. But then everyone says, well, wait a minute. The other guys aren't getting any money. Well, it's got to be one or the other, right? It can't be

well, the other guy that's not going back into the locker room. But yet the rookie, I mean, I'll tell you, of course, the first round guys, you know, the first whatever it was, 25, 30 picks, I think it was, 25 picks are taking less over four years than they did before. But the idea was always to push it back into the locker room, to book it back to the other guys. People like to say, well, that's not happening. And then I say, well, then you tell me how it's not happening

if everybody's saying you have to have a rookie quarterback to win the Super Bowl. Now, I don't believe you have to have a rookie quarterback to win the Super Bowl, but if that's the argument, then you're implicitly saying the money's going back in the locker room. I got the chance to work with dominic foxworth quite a bit at espn i didn't know him prior to working with him i know he's very involved in this stuff and and we would spend some time talking on the air we spent a lot of time talking off the air and we'd always talk about guaranteed contracts and i've always understood

the players frustration with this i think me my age in 40s growing up with it we were just beaten over the head with the idea, well, there's no way the NFL could ever have it. And you start getting older and you start thinking about it and you go, wait a minute, like why, why couldn't NFL players have guaranteed contracts? And I think a lot of fans would still resist it. I think it would maybe take some of the guaranteed money away from the top tier guys. Maybe contracts would just be structured differently. Maybe they'd be shorter. We'd have some of these fake years they'd get rid of. But do you think you'd ever have the support with sometimes 2,000 players in a season and the massive turnover that you have in this game,

do you think you'd ever have enough player support where people would be willing to actually miss some game checks to have this kind of groundbreaking change happen in the CBA for the NFL? Well, I guess the first thing is, happening to CBA for the NFL? Well, I guess the first thing is, what major sports CBA guarantees their contract by CBA? You're right.

It's an owner's decision on how far they want to guarantee it. But when Chris Paul signs for four years plus one, I know there's a really good chance when it's a player option that he's going to get that fifth-year guaranteed. No, you misread what I'm saying. I'm making the point that no CBA guarantees players' contracts across the board. Basketball guaranteed contracts came about as a matter of custom in the 70s and the 80s. There's no CBA that guarantees every player's contract. There's no CBA that guarantees every player's contract.

So what you saw last year or two years ago in the National Football League, you saw a high-profile quarterback get a guaranteed contract. Those are things that over the course of time have happened on a player-by-player basis. So the first thing I would say with respect to guaranteed contracts is we've talked to the agent community about ways that players should be colluding together in order to increase their bargaining leverage to obtain guaranteed contracts, whether it's left tackles, safeties, linebackers, quarterbacks. You know, there's nothing that prevents players from colluding to improve their leverage to get the contract that they want.

So, you know, that's kind of the first issue. Second, yes, there might be ramifications of having every contract guaranteed by CBA against cat skill and injury. And that's something that the players would have to decide that they want. But instead of jumping forward to find out whether or not players would be willing to miss games about it, out whether or not players would be willing to miss games about it. I think the first question is whether the group of player leadership believes that every contract in the National Football League should be guaranteed against cats, skill, and injury. Does that make sense? It makes a ton of sense, because you're right.

I mean, the technical part of that is that, yes, the CBA in hockey, in baseball, in basketball. But I think it's it's so much about perception sometimes with this stuff, which may sound crazy. And look, you know, I just cut Eric off, but, you know, there's a lot of this business where we could spend a lot of time trying to make people happy by giving them a better perception. a better perception. Or we can engage our player leadership, have them understand the issues the right way, and have them make real decisions about what's in the best interest of players and not worry too much about perception.

Do you think it's good when NFL players tweet and complain about NBA contracts? I think it's good anytime a player makes his voice heard, and it's even better if they understand the issues when they do. Yes, that was a very good addition to that. Eric, did you have more on that? Because I still have

other stuff I want to get to here. No, no, no, that's good. He covered it. Like I said, I think there's macro and micro issues at play, and I think we're going to constantly push that envelope and open doors and try to make it as easy and whatnot as possible to have every guy get whatever contract he wants. And I think that's the important thing is that I think a lot of people say,

like you said the right thing of there could be some tradeoffs that certain guys aren't willing to make. You said shorter contracts, whatever. But that's where we're at. Every guy's got to make their decision as if they're their business. And we move down the road. Because I always think about the math of this, where this is kind of getting back to sort of that macro thing. It's that, okay, the players feel we should have this kind of revenue cut. We feel like we should have this kind of workload in the offseason. We feel like these should be the benefits, and discipline should be handled this way, right? Like all the stuff

that we've all talked about, and plenty of stuff that you guys know about that I don't, that maybe I'll never know about, you know, the intricacies of how this stuff works. But it's just so much harder when it's 1,500 players to 2,000 players in a given season. I don't know how you – I sympathize with you here, not just as a guy going pro player versus anti-owner. I sympathize with trying to get that many guys on the same page knowing that when you look at how this league works, like how many guys in that room if you can put them all in a room would be willing to miss paychecks for the greater good of future

generations of football players i think it's an almost impossible task and i i'm obviously the owners are aware of it if i'm aware of it and i don't know how you handle that welcome to our world i mean listen we i think the biggest thing and I think it's something that I learned. You know, I'm a kid from West Texas that had never seen a union in his life and was never exposed to one until I was in this one. And so for me, it's about telling that story, right? It's about telling the story of Bill Radovich and what he's gone through and all the way up with Mackey and then Reggie White and fighting for free agency and everything that happened in between. And it's about letting guys know and teaching them the history and then having letting them understand that history and then dictate their future. And that's what I think this is all about more than anything is is arming our guys with the info they need to make the right decisions.

And those right decisions are the decisions that they'll make and that they get to choose their destiny going forward. And that's what's sort of crazy about all this. But at the same time, it's really cool. And that's why I do it because I want to help. And I want to help these guys. And they've entrusted me. And I want to pay that back by doing that for them.

Well, and you understand it. It's not the easiest challenge in the world, but in its most crass form, you framed the issue perfectly. There's a lot of issues that players do care about. There's a lot of issues that players should care about. It's one thing to simply want to complain about those issues. But it's another thing if you are willing to do what teachers across America have done, nurses across America have done, what the U.S. Women's National Soccer Team threatened to do. It's one thing to complain about things,

and it's another thing to actually arm yourself and exercise your right as a worker to go on strike. And until you're willing to fight a group of owners on that level, everything else is just going to be a complaint up to that point, right? Yeah, I think about different things at work. Um, everything else is, is just going to be a complaint up to that point. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, I think about different things at work. Like if this played out, if I were at ESPN and, um, you know, obviously I still am, but I've been there a long time and we had a contingency of guys that were like, Hey, all international

travel needs to be stepped up. The rest of us would be like, we don't care. And that kind of leads me to like some of the other things things. We make a ton of noise about the franchise tag. I think the franchise tag is a great mechanism for the owners to kind of suppress the top salaries or lower guaranteed money because you don't have enough guys getting the market clear and free. But I looked it up. I think I have this right.

I think 11 players over the last four years have actually played on the tag. So how many other guys are really going to care? And I think that transitions, because I don't want to spend a ton of time talking about the franchise tag, but things like punishment and Goodell's authority and hearing about how that's been, you know, just complained about for years. And you go, okay, but how many players actually care about that? How many players actually care about the NFL not testing for marijuana?

Like some of these smaller issues, do you walk, like do we sensationalize the headlines where most of the players don't care about caddell's authority don't care about testing for marijuana where are we with those and i think that kind of goes back to what i was saying at the beginning of this is is that's why i say it's not going to be an extension right it's going to be a renegotiation because every guy is going to get to choose um our leadership's leadership's going to put forth what they're hearing in the locker room, what they've been telling their guys and onward and what we've gathered going through every locker room, et cetera, about what they care about.

And so I think you're right on the point, is that this is what the current guys care about, what they believe in, and what are you willing to achieve those in? At the end of the day, that's what this is all about. We'll have more of the guys here in a second, but first, Father's Day is around the corner and a subscription to Golf Digest Schools is

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Speaking of some of the great partnerships that we've had, Belvedere. How did they feel about that last read, Kyle? I've been checking the inbox and I haven't gotten anything, so I think we're all right. Okay, so let's do this then. Nothing in the inbox, we feel good. Belvedere. Part of a 600-year Polish vodka-making tradition, Belvedere vodka is all natural and made with 100% non-GMO Polska rye and pristine water. Belvedere has championed Polska rye vodka and superior natural ingredients since its inception and continues their mission with its new Belvedere Single Estate Rye Series. Not named after me. These award-winning vodkas, Smagory Forest

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I'm thinking about just gone, man. Maybe four straight weeks. I'm serious. Might not be able to pull it off. Speaking of vodka, though, had a close friend. The father would drink a different liqueur. That's a weird way. He'd just drink a different liquor. He'd golf. He'd have a couple. And then he was told, you're banned from that one. You can't drink that one anymore. You come home, you're too weird. Guess what he's drinking now? Belvedere.

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We might have to send them another bill for how good that was. How convincing. Taste the difference and enjoy Belvedere's new single estate rye vodka's on the rocks or in a delicious cocktail today. Belvedere is a quality choice. Drinking responsibly is too. Will marijuana be something that's

brought up? Will that be something you feel like players will push for as a point here to win for the players where they don't want to be tested for it anymore? I don't... Well, I'm being somewhat PG about the answer.

I think what will come up is what do we want to accomplish when it comes to player health, player rehabilitation, issue of pain? We said earlier that we don't look at issues sort of siloed. I think that there are a lot of things that we can change that not only make the lives of players better, but making better decisions about avoiding the things that we know that cause injury, pain, dependency, that we know that cause injury, pain, dependency, the use of opioids. Those are the things that I think that there are substantial wins, not only for the players, but for all of us on those issues.

And is marijuana or alternative treatments in that matrix? Yes. Okay. We got there. We got to PG-13 by the end of that. Alright, the TV deal. I have my own thoughts about this since I work for one of the big companies in that.

I know exactly where the article's coming from when I read an article that says, everybody would like to just wrap up this new CBA by September 1st of this year with a new TV deal looming in 2022. That'd be great if everybody were happy. I don't see how it would just happen that quickly. And I don't know that the television broadcasting companies would be like, I don't think they're going to sit there on September 2nd if there's not a new CBA going out. We don't know if we want to be in business with the NFL.

I think that's like ludicrous and overstated. How much? I mean, who's the advantage for here? Is it really that much of an advantage for the Players Association to have this expiring TV deal two years after the CBA? I don't know. I think you framed the issue extremely well. I mean, you understand it probably better than most. I don't know whether it gives us an advantage.

I agree with you. I don't really see, you know, going back to a group of people working together. I don't see the five networks necessarily sitting around in September. And if, you know, a deal is present or if a deal is not present, five networks just saying, hey, let's not do business with the National Football League again. I don't see that happening. I think that it is a good idea for us to talk about things that make our overall business model stronger.

business model stronger. I think that if we can do things that improve the lives of players, that balances out our relationship in a fair way, those are conversations that are good to have. He's right. You hit the nail on the head there. Listen, we're always going to, whether it's before or after September 1, like I've like I've always said, I'll reach my hand out halfway and it's got to be met halfway. And we're going to continue to have productive conversations as long as they're willing to be productive. Right. And and we'll see where it goes. But I don't look at it and say, oh, my God,

if we don't get something done by X period, then, you know, it's just it's going to be a it's going to be a loss for us or something like that. DeMorris, I know going back and researching some of the stuff, the more technical side, so please correct me if I get anything wrong here, but to certifying the union, to go after the NFL that way, it wasn't something the courts actually looked upon favorably. So it didn't really work maybe as a strategy. What did you learn about that approach that maybe you would change course if it gets to the point where we're looking at a work stoppage? What did I look at to change course? Yeah, from the strategy, if it gets to that point,

like what do you learn about strategy going through this, you know, nine years ago, eight, nine years ago, if you have to go down that road again in 2020 or after 2020. You would. I mean, you know, if, if someone decides in your market that they're only going to pay sports journalists $10,000 a year and you, as you know, if, if I don't know whether you belong to a union or not, but if you decided that that was a violation of the antitrust laws, and you won at the district court level, and you won half of it at the appellate court level and lost half of it at the appellate court level.

And then 10 years later, they did exactly the same thing to you again. I doubt you would say that you wouldn't pursue your legal remedy, right? That would be correct. That would be a correct assumption. Yeah. So, you know, it's not a question of, you know, what G. Smith learns or not. I think we still live under a nation of laws and people who are aggrieved should have access to pursue their remedies. to pursue their remedies. And does the law change? Sure.

But under what scenario would you ever turn to a group of people and say, because you lost half of it in the appellate courts, and you won half of it in the appellate courts, that you wouldn't use every tool to seek redress for what you thought was a violation of your constitutional rights. I didn't really think you were going to give me your strategy over a podcast, but... Oh, no! I'm being really blunt with you. You are. You are. No, I know, and I get that. You asked me what my strategy was, and if they locked us out,

would we decertify and sue under the antitrust laws again? Yes. That's a great answer. Thank you for that answer. It also happens to be true. Sometimes I give both. I have a couple more things, and I know, don't worry, I'm aware of the time on this, because I really appreciate how busy you guys are. Eric, for your side of this, is this fun for you? Or is it? It's a fine fun.

Yeah, I don't. Are you talking to you? I love talking to you. You're a lot of fun. No, I mean, it's a really fascinating thing to educate yourself on. You know, I imagine you come into the league, you're a young guy, you think you have it figured out, you pick out the new car, and you're like, wait a minute, what? And then, you know, you start maybe getting a little motivated, you know? You start feeling like you have some kind a minute what and then you know you start maybe getting a little motivated you know you start feeling like you have

some kind of message and then you go you know what i'm going to take more responsibility on this like anybody that wants to do this yeah i mean i was lucky to have a mentor when i first came into the league a guy named mark bruner who played gosh 14 15 years at in houston who was a vice president of our union and you know he he put his arm around me, kind of showed me how, what it meant to be a professional. Um, and we would talk a lot and I'd ask him a thousand questions, not really knowing his role. And he was the one that, that, that, Hey, you need to come to his meeting, right?

Ask your questions at this meeting. And I did. And he got me to my first big rep meeting, even before I was a rep. And that sort of just opened my eyes because I saw the guys that I watched on TV, the Jeff Saturdays, the Mike Rabels, the Kevin Moais, these leaders and leaders on their team doing it for their fellow guys around the league. And they were making decisions that affected everybody. They were standing up and saying, hey, I'm willing to be heard. And that was something that I just looked at and said, I want to help.

And I didn't really know what that was going to bring. I didn't know that was definitely not going to bring me here. But I just wanted to help. And so I did it in our locker room and I was willing to run things down and do things that way. And I did it in Kansas City when I was there as well as the rep there. And so I just continued on that path, and it's led me here. And again, like I said before, for me, while it can be stressful

and you only get paid in grief sometimes, it's been an incredible learning experience and, uh, I've, I've gained a lot of just interesting insights. I think that's going to carry me for the rest of my life, but, um, I, I enjoy the mission and I enjoy what it means to do this. And I'm more than anything, I'm honored that the guys have both wrote me in to do this. And I'm more than anything, I'm honored that the guys have both brought me in to do something like this. And so I feel a certain sense of debt to them that I've got to show up and repay that. And so for me, that's that means getting ready and doing everything I can to put us in the right position coming up here. And if it gets done under, you know, while I'm still the president, great. And if it doesn't, then I feel like it's my responsibility to give it to the next guy

and leave it a little bit better than I found it. And that's something that I've always just believed in and that I was going to do. I have a question for both of you on this one, because, you know, I'm bringing up that word perception again, and being a guy that talked about it for three hours a day for 10 years and going, okay, this is how I feel about this, and then change your mind a little bit. I'm telling you, I've never seen more fan support for players for your sport and even media too. Like it's an overwhelming shift from the way it was where, you know,

people were selfish and people are still selfish, but fans were very selfish. It's like, hey, just play, go play, go play. And I think as people have still selfish, but fans are very selfish. It's like, hey, just play, go play, go play. And I think as people have educated themselves, there are more people that are pro player in the media and fans than I think we've ever seen before. But there's still a part of that selfishness where the fans are like, hey, am I going to miss football?

I just want my football. What would you say to Morris to the fan that maybe doesn't understand exactly what this is that you're fighting for, that it's not just another chunk of the revenue split, getting a percentage point or two back. What would you say to the person that maybe is selfish at home in their jersey, just hoping kickoff is on Sunday? I would say that the issue should be about fairness. I mean, what would you want for your son? What would you want for your father? What would you want for your father? What would you want for your brother?

I love football. Eric knows more about football, probably forgot more about football than I'll ever know. But when you come here and you work for this union, you're consumed with fairness. And I know that we have great fans. I agree with you that there has been a shift. But I never look at this as sort of a binary thing

between people who love football or do they have to choose players. We should all be interested in fairness. Yeah, I'll tell you another story. I have a really good buddy that i played with and um he was he was actually a rep and one of the teams that we were at and his father was from a very rural part of georgia and obviously not not the heart of union country and um you know he was at one of the rep meetings and he's like you know know, I didn't really get it until, until my son was in the league.

And so I, even, even then I didn't quite get it until now. And, and you, you understand, you know, he was telling me this, I understand how important it is. And it, and I guarantee you, nothing he was saying had anything to do with money and it had to do with what we talk about and, and health and benefits and retirement. And, and again, goes back to what you said. It's just overall fairness. It's about putting in something and getting out what you've put in for it.

And I think that's what this is really all about more than anything, is just us being able to realize that as a collective, that we've done something special and the guys before us did something special, and that they should see that, and they should see that collective fairness. And I get it. I get the fans sometimes don't want to talk about it or don't want to hear about it, but, you know, that's where we're at right now.

And the business of this sport is what it is and it has to be dealt with and there's a lot of guys that are going to come after me that are depending on us to do the right thing and there's a lot of guys that have already came before us that are depending on us to do the right thing and that's what we've got to do and I really believe

that if more fans even now will speak up about it, and the more former players, everybody raises their voice a little bit, I do think that moves the needle. And I think that gets something, again, done that is more in line with what I would consider fair. Last thing. DeMorris, if I read an article that you and Roger Goodell

have never gotten along better than you do right now, should I believe it? Only if you wrote it. We're besties. Besties. I mean, we've got a great relationship, and I think I certainly respect the job that Roger does. I hope that he respects the job that I do. But, you know, I've said it before. I've never believed that, you know, this job or his job is necessarily about friendship.

I think both of us have a job to do. And I think we're both blessed to be stewards of our business. If we can figure out a way to make that better, so be it. But if not, each of us knows how to do our job extremely well. All right. That was a good answer. You got back to kind of head of the whole thing. Very diplomatic there. Look, guys, I know, go ahead.

I try. Um, no, I look, the one thing I would say about, um, I wanted to add about, um, sort of, um, opinions changing. Um, I do think that, that people like you, um, um, who spend time researching issues and then presenting them to our fans in ways that maybe they haven't necessarily thought about before, um, has led, has been probably the largest, you know, single contributor to the, the, the change in perception. And, um, you know, that, that's my way of saying thank you. Yeah. Wow. I didn't expect to say you're welcome at the end of this podcast but here we are hey but seriously me neither

this was a lot of fun I hope I educated some people because it's a nice down time for the NFL and I don't know how the story's

going to go I don't think you guys know and I look forward to watching it develop and hopefully it is a happy ending for everybody

so thanks again alright man thank you thanks for listening to right, man. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the dual threat podcast. Hope you learned something today, not just about Poland, but about the NFL CBA with DeMora Smith and Eric Winston, and make sure you tell all your friends to subscribe, rate and review to the dual threat podcast.

And we will see you again next week. Outro Music