The Sevan Podcast - #21- Paul Saladino

Episode Date: March 24, 2021

The Sevan Podcast EP 21 Paul Saladino @carnivoremd @brianfriendcrossfit @sevanmatossian The Sevan Podcast is sponsored by http://www.barbelljobs.com Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/therealsevanpodcast/ Sevan's Stuff: https://www.instagram.com/sevanmatossian/?hl=en https://app.sugarwod.com/marketplace/3-playing-brothers Support the show Partners: https://cahormones.com/ - CODE "SEVAN" FOR FREE CONSULTATION https://www.paperstcoffee.com/ - THE COFFEE I DRINK! https://asrx.com/collections/the-real... - OUR TSHIRTS ... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Morning, Paul. Hey, what's going on? Paul, that's Brian Friend up there. What's up, Brian?

Hey, Paul. Paul, I am notorious for asking inappropriate questions that to me aren't inappropriate. They're just pedestrian so i'm just going to test you out here to test your resolve really quick how old are you how old are you 43 yeah shit we're we're buddies already that was easy you didn't even flinch you didn't even flinch Paul, I come from a pedigree of CrossFit. I started at the very bottom, worked my way up to being an executive at CrossFit.

I was there 15 years, and I lived and breathed that shit, right? And our foundation and our nutrition is eat meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little sugar. Sorry, one more time. Eat meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little sugar. Sorry, one more time. Eat meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar. And for 15 years, I whittled my way to hit that protocol, that nutritional guideline. And, um, and it w and it was in the zone proportions. Are you familiar with the zone proportions? 40, 30, 30. Okay. And, um, my biggest obstacle always was sugar, right? There was always some sort of sugar sneaking in and I stumbled across your Instagram

page and I saw this thing called the carnivore diet. And I thought, oh shit, I'm going to use this guy's diet to, well, my, I totally, I cheated. I'm going to pick and choose what this guy says. I'm going to cherry pick this brilliant guy's. And I really do see you as a gift to humanity quite honestly i'm gonna cherry pick this guy's diet to help myself get off of sugar and knock myself into ketosis i always wanted to be in ketosis so at 48 years old for two weeks all i eat all i ate was um uh meat and hard cheeses and in that time i'm pretty sure i snapped into ketosis because something really trippy happened. I stopped craving sugar at night and I started just like, I became, I just needed fat. It was so bizarre.

Like every night at nine o'clock, I was just like, oh my God, I need two avocados. I need a pound of macadamia nuts. And then over following you even further, I've given up nuts. I've given up my macadamia nuts, cashews. I occasionally cheat with a scoop of peanut butter and a cup of milk, but very rarely, less than once a week. I'm a grown-ass man, but with the mind of a 14-year-old. So I point people to other smart people. I don't actually have the smarts.

But you and I are so on the same path, and Brian and I are on the same path, because you have this on your website. Let me see if I can get this right. The relentless search to understand and correct the roots of chronic disease and illness. And my, my boss mentor, dear friend, Greg Glassman, he was singularly focused on that. Like be like obsessed, right? That's all it was optimize human health performance and longevity. Anyone who didn't see that totally missed what he was doing. When I watch your videos, my big, big concern about you as a gift to humanity is that you have run so far ahead of the rest of us idiots.

Because when I watch your videos, I'm like, holy crap. Like, like I have to pause it and Google that word and Google that word and Google that word. And so I'm, I'm pleased to have you on to hopefully, and I, and I apologize because I know someone like you has run out so far ahead and some of these things are going to be pedestrian for you, but I would like to bring you back, you know, a little bit to, to help. Um, because where our battles differ is you take for granted that people aren't eating sugar and refined carbohydrates kind of, right. And you've already moved on to the next big killer, which catches my eye right away because I'm, I am intimately a believer that damaging mitochondria is a big, big, no, no, big, huge, no, no. And I know that you talk a lot about mitochondria is a big, big no-no, big, huge no-no. And I know that you

talk a lot about mitochondria, but I used your program and you have a book actually, and I have not read the book, but it's called the keto reset diet. And I'm like, holy shit, that sounds like what I did. No, that's, that's Mark Sisson's book. My book is called the carnivore code. Oh, I'm sorry. I know. And I do know that. And I do know that. And you know that your book is the carnivore code. Damn. Look at me. So you didn't write this other book either. There were three books on your website. You didn't write The Plant Paradox either. That's Gundry's book? That's Gundry's book. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And I watched your conversation back and forth with him. It's really cool that both of you will take the time to do that. Yeah, it's fun to do some debates. Yeah.

What is the carnivore diet? Who should be eating it and why? Yeah. Big, big, big questions. So the carnivore diet is whatever we want to make it. But the ideas for a carnivore diet grew out of the sentiments that you expressed there. This idea that, you know, I went to medical school at the University of Arizona, residency at the University of Washington. Before I went to medical school, I was a PA in cardiology. And through all of it, I was just pissed. I was just freaking angry at what I saw around me, which was people suffering without any

real attention within mainstream Western medicine toward the actual root cause of their illness. And this isn't because physicians are not intelligent or not well-intentioned. It's because the paradigm and sort of the propaganda machine that we're built into or indoctrinated into as physicians in our training is that, you know, we are doctors, we fix things with medications and flashy procedures and special imaging. And we, we, we, we changed the spin of protons with MRIs. And we are like, we are essentially like the new shamans and these, these necromancers, right? We're these wizards with these special potions and these magical things. And I was always kind of like, this is bullshit. We're missing the most important piece, which is obviously the concordance or discordance between

our genetics and our environment. And the big piece of that that I always wanted to focus on, not exclusively, but predominantly, was nutrition. And I've always been fascinated by what are all these molecules that are coming into our bodies and how do they affect us? And so I wanted to try and understand how can we align that? Is it different for you than it is for me? Is it different for a woman than it is for this collection of men in this podcast? Is it different for someone from a different part of the world? Or is there some sort of fundamental sort of programming, right? This quote, ancestral story that lies within our genetics that is really common for all of us. And sort of the nuance is all built

on top of that. And so as I went down this rabbit hole myself, I did paleolithic diets, which are pretty similar to what they're describing with your CrossFit folks in the past. You know, that idea, that's pretty paleo. And that starts to ask the same questions, like, where have we come from as humans? What is built into our genetics? What is built into our book of life? And what does that really say? What does an instruction manual say for a human? But it didn't work for me totally. My eczema continued throughout the whole thing. And I thought, okay, there's got to be more. And at one point, I heard Jordan Peterson on a podcast, and he said, I'm only eating meat.

And my first reaction was, that's crazy. Like, you can't just eat meat. I, too, had been indoctrinated that there were these magical compounds in vegetables or plants that we needed as humans to be optimal. And, yeah, I was curious. And because I'm the type of guy that just wants to do everything, I thought, I don't know if I believe this, but I'm going to do it. And so much like you, I just dove in, got rid of all the plants in my diet and was eating meat and liver and organs and fat. And I started out with honey and then I got rid of honey after a week. We can talk about that sort of carb, no carb discussion as well. And lo and behold, I felt really good. My eczema resolved and never recurred for, you know, the three years since that point.

And since then, I've had a lot of kind of right turns and left turns and nuance, you know, I'd say revisions and upgrades or just, you know, continue to think about the paradigm of how we can align diet and nutrition and genetics for humans. But simplistically, a carnivore diet is an animal-based diet. It's a diet that's either entirely or, in my opinion, mostly made up of animal meat and organs and fat. And so wrapped into this are all these important concepts about the way that our ancestors have always eaten animals. They eat the whole animal. We can talk about this nose to tail. So when I first wrote The carnivore code, my book, and I first started doing a

carnivore diet, it was all animal products. There were, there was no bread. There was no avocados. There was really meat, mostly ruminant red meat, organs like liver, other organs like heart, fat, like suet, which is the kidney fat, salt, and water. And that was interesting to me. And then I kind of went through further iterations and thought about it a little more and went down rabbit holes and kind of had these kind of off ramps and these modifications. But that's the answer to your question in a long-winded form. It's a diet that, in my opinion, is exclusively or mostly based on animal foods. And we can talk about why I think that's important. When I, when I first started, I, I

basically, a friend of mine had a cow and he killed this cow and I bought a bunch of ground beef from him. And I was basically just eating ground beef and hard cheeses. And I did that for two weeks and something wasn't, I mean, I was free from chasing sugar, which was like mind-boggling at the age of 48 to be like – I couldn't actually believe the psychological change. Like I wasn't chasing glucose all day. Like I don't even think most people realize they're chasing glucose all day. But when I got free from – and then I basically had to remind myself to eat in the morning. My wife would be like, hey, there's leftover eggs here. Do you want them?

And I'd be like, I guess I better eat. But then I dug further into your Instagram and I realized, oh shit, he talks about organ meat and why organ meat is so important. And that's how I stumbled upon Firestarter and the supplements you came up with. And I always joke about that on my Instagram. Oh, here I go eating the dead animals in a pill again and immediately like literally within hours of starting to take those yours and the ancestral blend those two i within hours i was like oh shit i'm normal again it was it was actually um i've never actually had a pill that wasn't like besides like MDMA in college that actually affected me that quickly,

you know? Um, so, so thank you for that. Can you tell us why the Oregon meat is so important in the corn, in the carnivore diet? Yeah, I think in any diet it's important, even, even outside of the context of a carnivore diet, I think organs are important and that's why I built heart and soil, which is the company that makes these desiccated, freeze-dried organ supplements that you're talking about. And so I just got back from Africa. This is a trip I've wanted to do forever. Because as I went down this rabbit hole, I got interested in anthropology, something

that should be taught in medical school, but is not. And I kept reading about this group of hunter-gatherers called the Hadza, who are in Tanzania by Lake Iasi. And I kept kind of quoting them and talking about them and quoting studies by Frank Marlow, who's one of the people that spent the most time with him. He wrote a book on them and multiple papers. And I thought, man, there's this group of hunter-gatherers remaining on the planet, and they're a gem. They're just a treasure because they're a time machine in a way. And I want to go spend time with them to see if the way that I imagine they're living is actually the way they're living. And it pretty much was very similar to what I'd read and what I experienced.

Of course, there were lots of pieces that were filled in. But what you realize is that these hunter-gatherers, and there's really only a few groups left on the planet, the Kung San in South Africa and Botswana, the Hadza in Lake Iasi region of Tanzania, perhaps a group in the Amazon called the Kaiwi Menno, and maybe a few other groups. But there's probably numbering in the thousands and not even the tens of thousands. There are probably a few thousand, maybe only a thousand actual humans living on this planet amongst 7 billion people who actually still hunt and gather, who are kind of this lens, this time microscope, this DeLorean from back to

the future that tells us this is probably the best representation of what we have, of the way that humans have lived for, as Homo sapiens for 400,000 years, as Homo habilis and Homo erectus for two to three million years before that. And what you find is invariably they eat the animal from nose to tail. But this isn't the way we've done it unless we're from a culture, perhaps an Asian culture or a South American culture, or we're very connected with our cultural roots in people who are eating these exotic parts of the animal. You and I go to the grocery store, whether it's Whole Foods in Austin, Texas, or Erewhon in Los Angeles, or wherever, and you mostly see steaks, which is great because it means that the vegans haven't won, and they haven't gotten rid of all the steaks in the world, and it's not just plant-based garbage meat. But you very rarely see heart or liver, and I've never seen outside. Within the

United States, I've never seen kidney. I've never seen spleen. I've never seen pancreas. You just don't see these things in grocery stores. And yet these are on the menu for every hunter-gatherer tribe in the world. And that's exactly what I saw with the Hadza. You know, I got to hunt and live with them for many days. And we hunted and killed a baboon on the second day that I was with them, which is a whole separate conversation. And people may not be super comfortable with that. And what do they do? The first thing they eat is the organs. We literally, you know, they kill the baboon. They throw the baboon in the fire to burn the hair off.

They cut open the guts. They give the lower intestines to the dogs. And then everything else goes on the coals of the fire. And we're suddenly passing around liver and heart and kidney and spleen and pancreas and all these GI abdominal organs in lungs, everything. We don't waste anything from this animal. Then the rest of the animals carry back to camp and we eat the meat. And then the next morning I arrive in camp and we eat the brain, which is cooked over the fire. And there's this incredible image of, you know, that I have in sort of burned into my brain of, we arrive back to camp the next

morning and they have a baboon skull on a stick over the fire and they just crack it open. And suddenly there's a Hadza tribe member offering me baboon brain to which I enthusiastically said, yeah, give me some of that. But we never do this as humans. We think of animal foods as meat, whether it's chicken breast. I mean, if somebody eats chicken thigh with skin on, they're like adventurous, right? Most people just eat lean chicken breast. They might eat bacon. It's just meat and fat. It's all muscle meat. But we never eat these organs. And yet so much unique nutrition is in those organs. And so I realized this pretty quickly when I was going down the rabbit hole of animal-based diets and thought, wait a minute, there are a lot of

nutrients in meat. This is undeniable. And I've had lots of interesting conversations with vegans where I talk about, hey, where do you get your creatine? Where do you get your zinc? Where do you get your vitamin B6? Where do you get your B12? But the list of unique nutrients in meat is partial. And if you look at the unique nutrients in liver, it's, it expands and it becomes pretty comprehensive because in liver, you're going to find more choline, more folate, more riboflavin, more biotin, more copper to balance the zinc, more K2, all sorts of important things. And peptides, these small protein molecules that have unique signaling roles.

these small protein molecules that have unique signaling roles. And so all the time I see clients who are just eating mostly meat and they have elevated levels of a compound in their body called homocysteine. And this is primarily because they're folate and riboflavin deficient, because if we want those B vitamins, which are, you know, vitamin B2 and vitamin B7, I believe, vitamin B2 and vitamin B7, I believe, respectively, or maybe I reverse those, but you must eat animal organs. They're really not present in plants and they're really not present in good amounts in muscle meat. And so it just makes sense. It's like it completes the nutritional picture. And then you start going deeper into this rabbit hole and you think, well, what is unique about heart? Well, heart has a good amount of riboflavin, not as much as liver, but heart has a lot of coenzyme Q10, almost three to four times what is found in muscle meat.

Coenzyme Q10 is this B vitamin, quote, analog that is involved in electron transport in the membrane of our mitochondria. And it's much more bioavailable than animal foods. And it's in the heart. And then you think, OK, well, what about spleen? What does spleen have? Well, spleen has the most heme iron, which is the bioavailable form of iron that makes red blood cells in our body of anything. And it has unique peptides like splenin, tuftsin, and splenopentin. And it's just a deeper and deeper

rabbit hole of fascination of thinking, oh, wait, traditionally we've been told, you know, eat your vegetables because there's a ray of nutrients in them. But really, we should be told, eat your organs because every single organ has unique nutrients. I mean, there's... Do they, when you say unique, so every time you're talking, I'm playing the tape we all heard from our mom, right? In our head. Oh, wait, you need your vegetables because you need the vitamins and minerals. Don't forget you need your fiber. And of course, I've listened to your videos and I've seen your studies that you pull up in regards to fiber and vitamins. But is everything we need that our mom told us from vegetables, is that all in the organs? Great question. So it depends how you frame the question. If you're thinking of vitamins and minerals, vitamins being water-soluble vitamins, vitamin E, vitamin D, which mostly we get from the sun, vitamin C, the B vitamins, and minerals like calcium, magnesium, manganese, zinc, selenium.

Yes, they're all found in animal meat and organs. This was a really interesting thing for me to realize, that they're all found there, and they're generally found in larger amounts in more bioavailable, quote, bioidentical forms than they are in plants. Vitamin A is a great example. Vitamin A is the one we all think, oh, eat your carrots growing up. Eat your carrots, right? Well, most of the vitamin A in carrots is beta carotene, which is why your skin gets orange and if you eat too many carrots. And very few of us, in fact, none of us can really effectively convert beta carotene to the active form of vitamin A, which is retinoic acid in the human body. There's one study I quoted in my book that you need something like 20,000 IU of beta carotene to equal one IU biologically of retinoic acid, which is the

bioavailable form of vitamin A. So if you were trying to get the recommended daily allowance of retinoic acid equivalents from sweet potatoes, which is the highest, the most concentrated form of beta carotene, you would have to eat a pound of sweet potatoes every day. And that's just to get vitamin A. That's just to get one nutrient in the equivalent retinoic acid in a human body. And that's just the RDA. What if we need more than the recommended daily allowance, right? But you can get the recommended daily allowance for retinoic acid as retinoic acid, this important signaling molecule in the human body,

in perhaps a quarter of an ounce or a half of an ounce of liver. Just a few grams of liver will give this to you. And so then you start to think, oh, wow, what about vitamin K2, which is metaquinone, this whole spectrum of metaquinones. The story is the same. They don't even occur in plants. It's only K1, which is phyloquinone. And very few of us, we're really horrible at converting these. Where do you get K2? Animal meat and organs. So the list goes on and on and people start to really understand this. And there's all these nutrients that are found in animal foods that essentially don't occur in plants. Creatine, carnitine, choline, carnosine, anserine, taurine, B12 is

perhaps the best example, but the list is huge. And so you think, well, you can't even get these things in plants. You must eat animal foods to get these unique nutrients that we know very well are important, I would say critical, indispensable for optimal human health. And so people kind of get online, get on board with this, and they're following me, and they say, wait a minute, what about vitamin C? That's the one that always comes up. Because we've been told, you need to get vitamin C in plant foods. Yeah. Were you going to say something? No, no. You broke up for a second.

So I thought you took a pause. I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah. So vitamin C is actually found in animal foods as well. And this is what's crazy is if you look at the USDA database, they don't actually say there's any vitamin C in animal meat, but there is. It's just they didn't measure it because they didn't realize it was there. And then if you look at spleen, spleen is the highest amount of vitamin C of any animal food. I think it's maybe 30 to 40 milligrams in a few ounces. So you could pretty easily, and I'm not saying we have to be this dogmatic or this close-minded, but just for the sake of discussion, you could get the recommended daily allowance of vitamin C by eating only animal foods every day. By eating meat and liver and spleen and a little bit of heart, you would get

pretty close or to the 90 milligrams of vitamin C RDA. So yes, the short answer to your question is in terms of vitamins and minerals, they're all found in animal foods. Now the nuance becomes, and we can talk about this sequentially if you'd like, people will then say, well, you're not going to get any fiber in animal foods. So you have to have fiber. And we can talk about why I think that's false. And then people will say, well, you need these phytochemicals. You're not going to get those polyphenols, these phytochemicals, which technically aren't vitamins or minerals, right? There's no indispensable role for them in the human body.

So you need those, right? So you can't get those in animals, except you really can, which is kind of an interesting twist of plot twist that I'll tell you about. And we can go down both of those rabbit holes as you'd like to, but I'll pause there and see what your thoughts are. Paul, how many meals do you usually eat a day? Two. Is there any reason for that? And kind of the overarching thought I've always had is like,

is it possible to eat too much meat? Great question, because even vegans now are beginning to admit you need some animal foods in your diet, right? But the argument they'll make is you don't want a lot. You just want a small amount. But I've really not been convinced by their arguments. I think that you could eat too much lean meat if you didn't have enough fat with it, right? So if you were just eating the leanest steak you could, there is a condition called rabbit starvation,

and this has happened historically to Arctic explorers. So technically speaking, if you were to just eat lean meat without carbohydrates or fat, your biochemistry as a human will break. You must have fat. But if you are eating meat with fat, then biochemically, your body will be fine. You can eat as much as you want. And the counter arguments are, you'll overstimulate IGF-1 or you'll overstimulate mTOR, right? The mammalian target of rapamycin. And the evidence that these sort of plant-based pundits, or I would say cautious omnivores,

will suggest to really support their claims is quite weak. I've never seen a really good study to suggest that you could eat too much meat and fat and organs, right, if you're eating from nose to tail. And I will tell you that in hunter-gatherer tribes, the amount of meat they eat is proportional only to the success of their hunts. So in Kung San culture, for instance, there's very good evidence that at times when they have a successful hunt and they get a large animal, they will eat up to 2.5 or 2.2 kilograms of meat per day, which is four plus pounds of meat a day. Right. So there is this precedent for large amounts of meat eating at certain times.

Now, we probably don't need to eat four pounds of meat per day as humans. We don't need that much nutrition, but I've not seen good evidence. I don't think there's any real substantiation for the notion that you can eat too much meat. It's kind of these, I would say it's these hand-waving arguments based on very poorly done epidemiology studies and these theoretical notions that you'll overstimulate mTOR or IGF-1, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because those are the sort of part of the signaling molecule cascade that you need to be a healthy, vital human with robust bones and muscles and nutrients, right? Yeah. I actually wanted to ask you about IGF-1 at some point, but what's the timing and quantity of your two meals that you eat on a normal day? Yeah, so I'm about 165, 170 pounds. For most people, I think a good overarching, just a ballpark,

is about one gram of protein per pound of goal body weight. So I'll try and get about 1.7 pounds of meat per day, which is about 170 grams of protein. So I think that works well for most of us. Some people will need more if they're super active, but I will divide that into two meals. I prefer to eat a morning meal and an early afternoon meal and then do intermittent fasting, kind of have a fasting quote window between early afternoon and the next morning. It's just what works best for me in terms of my sleep schedule. But I do like to have some period of intermittent fasting. And we can talk about carbohydrates, no carbohydrates, because that's a portion of the perspective where I where i've really

evolved over time and sure that's interesting i eat as much as i want whenever i sorry go ahead brian no you eat as much as you want whenever you want seven i actually do intermittent fasting i eat as much as i want the opposite proportions of paul i usually don't eat until like noon and i'll stop eating at like 7 p.m. or 8 p.m. I just eat as much. As soon as I got on the carnivore diet, I noticed I was never full. And what do I mean by full? About three months into the carnivore diet, my mom had a birthday and I had a piece of cake.

And I immediately felt this feeling that I hadn't felt in three months. It was like, oh, I need to go sit on the couch. Oh, my stomach feels distended. When literally there were other times when I would eat two pounds of meat, ground beef, with like three eggs in it, and I could like 20 minutes later go work out. It was so bizarre. I had no lack of like mobility, no matter how much I stuffed into my face. And I feel like if I don't like basically force myself to eat when I'm in the state, I'll quickly, quickly start to lose weight. I also fast at 36 hours. And when I say fast, I drink coffee, but basically once a week.

I'm trying to do that for 52 weeks. I wanted to see what it would be like to give my digestive tract a rest of 52 days in a year. So Saturday night I stop eating. I don't eat again until Monday morning except for coffee. Paul, you're a doctor of psychiatry? Well, see, this is important to clarify. I'm board certified in psychiatry and nutrition. When you go to medical school, you go to medical school. Everybody goes to the same medical school. So there's no real doctor of psychiatry or doctor of something else. Then after medical school, you do a residency in a chosen field.

So I did my residency in psychiatry because I was interested in mental health and the connection between mood disorders and neuroinflammation. But pretty quickly, I realized that the whole notion of specialties in medicine is kind of a farce because it allows us to have these pieces of the pie. because it allows us to have these pieces of the pie. It allows us to silo ourselves as physicians by specialty and say, I'm in psychiatry. I don't have to worry about this guy's diabetes or his insulin resistance, which to me is all bullshit because it's all connected.

And we know that insulin resistance or metabolic dysfunction, these are essentially synonyms, will affect mood. And neuroinflammation can come from inflammation in the gut. So it's like, as a physician, if I want to be able to understand the root of an illness, I need to understand gastroenterology and dermatology and endocrinology and cardiology and vascular things. And so I've really not, I hate the designations like this. And people usually like to say like, you're a psychiatrist. What the hell do you know about nutrition?

To which I give them the middle finger and say, oh, fuck you. But I think that in terms of thinking, I think of myself as a physician and a student of life. And I certainly am intrigued by mental health. And I think it's a huge burden for us as humans. And I think it's a huge burden for us as humans. And it's a reflection of the same problems that are connected with heart disease and dementia and strokes and autoimmunity and all these other chronic diseases, diabetes and obesity. So, yeah.

You know, there's people, I don't know if you're familiar with Thomas Sowell. He's an economist from the Hoover Institute, 90 years old, old guy. Anyway, he's an economist and he has a ton to say about families and upbringing kids. And it's funny because anytime anyone would say, well, he's an economist, but it relates so...

I almost respect people more who master one field and then look back at another field because they can bring so much because they're not stuck looking through that funnel. Yeah, I mean, this is just appeals to authority that are used by people who don't like the fact that they can't debunk your arguments with any real science. So they try to railroad you or erode your credentials when in fact you show me the

physician, the classically trained physician that gets any training in nutrition or biochemistry beyond rudimentary stuff in the Krebs cycle in medical school. You know, this, it's all based on the assumption that, oh, you're not a gastroenterologist. How can you talk about GI stuff? Well, that gastroenterologist didn't get any training about nutrition and the connections between nutrition and the gut. And that cardiologist got essentially no training about nutrition. And that obesity surgeon got no training about nutrition. So it's all based on these really faulty assumptions and people are just, they use it incorrectly. It's like, hey, I'm a human. I happened to go to medical school a couple of times. I went to PA school. I worked in cardiology. I went to medical

school, did a residency in this, got board certified in nutrition afterwards. And now just trying to contribute valuable ideas and connect the dots where people haven't done that previously. Um, do you have kids? No. Do you have a wife? No. Are you single? Yeah. Wow. Wow, you're quite the catch. You got rid of your eczema, you're smart, and you skateboard. Wait, what about me? What about me, Sevan?

I'm single. I got no kids. When you were with the Hadza, you were there for a week. What did you use for toilet paper? Uh, plant leaves or sticks when you poop in the woods. When I, the first thing I noticed about the carnivore diet is that my, when I took a dump, it was significantly smaller and they weren't so much tubular. They were more like round there and I didn't need toilet paper anymore. That's the one, that's the one wipe wonder or the zero wipe wonder. It's yeah. You got to imagine. Yeah.

It's fascinating. And all these other people were talking about getting diarrhea on it. I never, ever, ever experienced anything like that. It was just, it actually was quite the opposite for me. I'm like, Holy cow. This is like for a hairy guy like me, this is a miracle. It can happen. Sometimes people get diarrhea. I've talked about this previously on podcasts. I think it mostly has to do with malabsorption of bile acids in the small intestine, but some people don't get it. But when people do get diarrhea, it's usually related to this abrupt transition from moderate or large amounts of fiber to zero fiber. In the human diet, fiber will sort of bind these bile acids and prevent them from making their way to the colon unbound. But if these bile acids or bile salts end up in the colon, they can be cathartic and cause diarrhea. So a lot of

people will adjust, but it generally has to do with the health of the gut, especially the small intestine and the large intestine, and the sort of the ability of the small intestine to quickly upregulate its resorption of these bile acids. But it's a workable thing. Paul, a couple of my family members did some explorations with diet over the past decade or so, and they were very adamant about the fact that based on their blood type, they needed more or less meat in their diet. Have you done any studies with regards to blood type and meat? Yeah, yeah. So I have a podcast called Fundamental Health, and every week I'll interview a person, and then every Friday I'll do a video called Controversial Thoughts where I just soliloquize

and monologue my own stuff. And I have a whole video on blood type diets and why they're based on zero science. So there's no evidence that I can find that blood type will determine your diet. And in fact, I believe the most ancestral blood type is blood type B, I want to say, in chimpanzees and stuff. But yeah, I think this is just a really sticky, appealing concept because people want to believe that they're a snowflake and that they have a special diet based on their blood type, but it's just not based on any real significant science. What it is based on is perhaps these petri dish models of occlusionation of red blood cells that don't really translate to actual real life in a human. And what you find generally with people on blood type diets is the

more they trend toward an animal-based diet, and we can talk about how that's nuanced and slightly different than a paleo diet or a carnivore diet, the more they trend toward meat and organs and what I think of as the least toxic plant foods, the better they do. So I really don't think there are some people for whom beans are good with their blood type and others for whom beans are bad. I think we can look at, for instance, beans and say, hey, this is a plant seed. It's full of digestive enzyme inhibitors. It's full of lectins, which are carbohydrate binding proteins. It is full of phytates.

It is absolute garbage food for humans that would have only been eaten under survival situations. So the blood type diet has gained a lot of appeal, but I just cannot say that it's based on any reputable science. And I want to say this about you from what I've noticed. And the only kink in your armor that I see is the fact that you do sell those supplements is the fact that you seem to go at everything, um, with the desire to see how it works, not to prove how, if it's right or wrong or comports with your, with the way you're eating and that you're very transparent in the way you change. Even looking at your video from two years ago,

it was the basics of carnivore diet. It's a 15-minute video I watched yesterday. I think you made it in 2019, all completely over my head. And I looked at then your video with Dr. Gundry, and even now as I look at you your skin you're a whole different person i mean you had this eczema right here in your brow in 2019 and it's like i mean you look like you're using you're not using a filter are you no no but uh i'm just using just checking i'm using the camera on my computer and i've been in costa rica for the last month doing

a i'm so i'm tan right now but But, and you know, you got to meet me in person to like see the quality of my skin, but it's really good. And I don't have any eczema now, but you bring up a really important point, which has been a challenge for me, right? So I kind of gained some popularity on Instagram and notoriety based on this carnivore diet. And then basically, as soon as I published the book in 2020, in February, I thought, shit, there's all these, there's a couple of things I want to change. And so it's been humbling, but also enlightening to look back on that work and to try and update and evolve my thinking. And we kind of, I kind of hinted at this earlier, and maybe we can talk about the way that my thinking has changed. And so I'll just tell you the rest of my story. So I

started a carnivore diet in, I think it was no, maybe August, 2018. Um, and I ate exclusively meat and organs and fat for a year and a half plus there. I mean, I did not cheat once, never, right? And I had a lot of benefits and I also had some issues with long-term ketosis personally. And so at that point, after a year and a half of probably mostly being in ketosis, never eating a carbohydrate other than the first few days of a carnivore diet, when I started, when I had honey, we can talk about that, I had pretty bad muscle cramps in my legs. Every time I went to the climbing gym and would kind of point my toe for a hole, I would get a cramp. And I was waking up at night with palpitations, sort of a racing heartbeat. And so you can imagine me writing my book, kind of very confident that there's something to this,

that plants are not uniquely benign for humans. There's something to this. And that as humans, we've really been misled regarding the dangers of meat. And we have not been told about the importance of organ meats as much as we should have been. So I was like, you know, these are really important concepts that I want to get out there. Sorry to interrupt, Paul, real quick. what was the other thing? Heart racing, heartbeat. And what was the other thing you said? Muscle cramps. Okay. Sorry. Palpitations is kind of the synonym. Yeah. So I would get palpitations. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Subjective tachycardia. So, so imagine me writing this book thinking these are important concepts, but also not feeling ideal in my own mind and body and thinking,

oh, how do I do this? I'm a fraud. Anyway, later on, I decided to reincorporate carbohydrates back into my diet, starting with something like honey, because of course, even I am subject to bias and confirmation, you know, bias and things like this, thinking, well, honey is basically from animals. It's made by bees. It's not even a plant food. It's not going to be defended the way that stems and leaves of plants are. So I reincorporate honey and things got a lot better over time. And then I started branching out to other things, thinking about fruit. And so the main evolution in my thinking since the publication of the carnivore code and the sort of the beginning of this journey toward a carnivore diet has been a shift toward more of what I would call an animal-based diet.

We started talking a little bit about my food earlier, but I generally eat probably 70% to 85% animal foods, which is meat, organs, and fat. And then I'll have 20% to 30% of my diet as what I would consider to be the least toxic plant foods. And this is all kind of in line with things I wrote in the Carnivore Code. If you think about plants, they don't really want their leaves or stems or roots or seeds to be eaten. These are the parts of the plant that a plant needs to live, that a plant needs to reproduce, to move on to the next generation. But these are the parts of the plant that many of us have been told are the healthiest parts of the plant. We've been told the kale, which is a plant leaf, is super healthy many of us have been told are the healthiest parts of the plant we've been told the kale which is a plant leave is super healthy and

we've been told that we should eat lots of it's almost offensive when you say it's not that's how hard it's been pushed into it yeah it's like i kicked somebody's puppy you know it really is it's insane and so and but we're told to eat grains or beans or nuts we're told these are healthy foods but if you think about it from the perspective of a plant, it makes absolutely no sense. And most people, if they're honest with themselves, will realize that when they eat beans or when they eat kale or when they eat broccoli, they get gas, they get pain, their poop gets less easy to pass or more runny or more oily or crappier, right? That's a pun. So you can kind of realize, you kind of realize like, hey, why am I eating kale in the first place? Like what is magical about kale? But if you think about a plant,

there's one part of a plant that it wants us to eat. It wants us to eat its fruit. It wants us to take the seeds of the plant, which are packaged in that sweet, brightly colored thing that our ancestors would always have eaten and the Hadza definitely eat, and move them around, right, in our poop sometimes, or just eat the fruit and then discard the seed if it's a large seed like a mango, and move the plant seed somewhere else. Fruit is clearly designed to be eaten and it's much less defended. And so it's been really eye-opening and humble to think, okay, I was too dogmatic about carbohydrates in the carnivore code. And I didn't understand the potential dangers of long-term ketosis. The potential dangers is a strong word, but I do think that humans

are not meant to be in ketosis long-term. I think cyclic ketosis makes a lot of sense. The Hadza definitely go days without food or a day. They have time-restricted eating patterns. They don't eat all the time. They're definitely going to be in ketosis occasionally, but when they can get access to honey from a tree or from a hive, and there's a special type of bee in Tanzania that lives in trees, or they can get a baobab fruit or some berries, they are going to eat them. And so I think that for most humans, getting dogmatic about ketosis or about anything is our enemy. But none of this, you know, I'll just say humbly and with some degree of pride that I don't think any of this invalidates the

other concepts that I talked about in the carnivore code, which are critical to not ignore. The fact that plants do have toxins, that fiber harms people, and that meat and organs should be at the center of the human diet. But there's been some evolution. It's been an interesting journey. Do you intend to publish a follow-up book with the new thoughts, like a Carnivore Code 2.0 or something like that? I'll probably do a revised edition, yeah, at some point. So I've got a cookbook coming out later this year. And in the cookbook is animal based. So in the cookbook, there's, oh, I think it's maybe 15,000 words of an introduction that I wrote about sort of the way my thinking has evolved. And I think that a carnivore diet, a purely animal, purely meat and

organs diet can be great for people as a reset, as a cleanse, as a challenge. And it's funny, a lot of people I have on the podcast, Stephen Gundry, who's about the plant paradox, even says he uses the carnivore diet in this podcast. In that podcast, Will Cole, who wrote the book Ketotarian, which is a plant-based keto vegan approach, also uses the carnivore diet in their practice. So many physicians use the carnivore diet in their practice and then will try and shit on it, you know, in the next podcast. Like, well, you shouldn't do this, but they actually use it in their practice and realize how powerful a simple animal-based diet can be for kind of changing the progression of things or resetting the body. But I do think that most humans are going to do better by reincorporating

some carbohydrates of some sort back into their diet, just because biochemically, though ketosis is valuable, it should be cycled with periods of, you know, using carbohydrates. It's okay to get carbohydrates in your diet. It's okay to have your blood sugar change. Why? Why can't i just have you read thomas seyfried's um um cancer is a metabolic disease so i'm familiar with it i haven't read a cover to cover i haven't read it either i can't read it but i've met him a few times and i've hung out and i'm and and i've gotten

the idiot's version and i'm super impressed by it. You mentioned three things I'd really like to talk about because I experienced all of these. Some funky heartbeats at night when I'm sleeping. Muscle cramps. What a trip. It's not even like a normal muscle cramp. It's just so bizarre. And it's always in bed at night. Like I move my leg funny, and all of a sudden it cramps.

And then the long-term issues with ketosis that you mentioned, can you touch on those? Oh, and a fourth thing, since you're just holding a bunch of information, why did my water intake quadruple? I'm making that up. Maybe it tripled when I went, started the carnivore diet. Yeah. Lots of things to address there. So I don't agree with everything Tom Seyfried is saying and cancer is a metabolic disease, but some of it is interesting. And if you really dig in, that's a whole rabbit hole we probably don't have time to go down to today. If you really look at the mitochondrial roots of cancer, there is some evidence that that's going on, but it's hotly debated whether the beginning or the inception point of cancer is DNA damage or is a mitochondrial issue that creates excess free radicals, which then damage nuclear DNA

because mitochondria are an intracellular organelle. But predicated on all of that is kind of the notion that carbohydrates poison the mitochondria, which I rebel against vehemently. the notion that carbohydrates poison the mitochondria, which I rebel against vehemently. There are countless examples of humans who are metabolically healthy and hunter-gatherers who eat moderate amounts of carbohydrates and remain metabolically healthy. So within the ketogenic circles, there is way too much dogma these days saying that carbs are garbage. You know, carbs are garbage. It's just not true. Like, carbohydrates are valuable for humans.

We don't need them all the time. We should not eat them at the exclusion of more nutrient-rich animal organs and meat or get the desiccated organs if we can't get the fresh organs. But the notion that carbohydrates cause insulin resistance or metabolic dysfunction is just false. And it's a conflation of studies that are done with processed sugar, like sucrose or high fructose corn syrup. Or it's an inappropriate use of animal studies, which don't really apply to humans. And I was talking to Gundry about this on the podcast I did with him recently too. You can look at the Hadza, you can look at the Mbuti pygmies of Africa as well, and they have a lot of their calories as honey for much of the year, depending on the tribe.

And I had a period of seven months where I had, I don't know, 75 grams of honey twice a day. So I was probably eating 120 to 140 grams of honey per day. And I had a continuous glucose monitor on for much of that. And then at the end of it, I took my fasting insulin and my C-peptide. I'm completely insulin sensitive after eating honey every single day. So there's a lot of nuance here. And to just say that carbohydrates cause mitochondrial dysfunction or carbohydrates cause insulin resistance is patently false. It's wrong. And it's damaging people because we do benefit from having cyclic inclusion of carbohydrates in our diet. So you agree though, no refined carbohydrates and no added sugar.

Yeah. I don't think you want to do that. And there's actually some really interesting nuanced studies about the difference between sucrose, which is a disaccharide of glucose and fructose or high fructose corn syrup and a raw, a raw unprocessed honey. And they do appear to act differently in mice and they do appear to act differently in humans. And so it's just because it has quote sugar in it, like fruit, right? Doesn't mean it's bad for humans. I mean, evolutionarily, that's a big hurdle to climb. You see the Hadza and I'm out with him in the bush and they find this little tiny straw in the tree that this stingless bee goes into. And the honey that these bees make is called Kanoa, K-A-N-O-A. And we get out their axe and there's a video of this on my Instagram and we chop the tree and then we get all this honey out of the tree.

They're not saying, oh, I can't eat too much of this. My CGM is going to bump, you know. They're not saying, oh, I can't eat too much of this. My CGM is going to bump, you know. They're not saying, oh, I'm going to become insulin. They're eating as much of it as they can and yet they're the leanest. They're lean. They're clearly not insulin resistant. They're not metabolically dysfunctional. So to conflate processed sugar, sucrose, high fructose corn syrup with honey is a mistake.

And to conflate it with fruit is a mistake because they're going to eat berries like they're going out of style. They're not going to stop eating them. They're going to eat as many as they can because they're going to eat berries like they're going out of style. They're not going to stop eating them. They're going to eat as many as they can and they're going to get them the next day. They're not going to say, oh, I had fruit yesterday. I shouldn't eat any fruit today. They're going to eat fruit and carbohydrates when it's available. And why would something like that that we've evolved with be detrimental for us? That's a huge intellectual hurdle that we have to get over because it doesn't make sense.

It doesn't really – intuitively, we know something is wrong there. to get over because it doesn't make sense. Intuitively, we know something is wrong there. So I want to address the things that you mentioned, which are the cramping, the palpitations, the water consumption, and maybe there was a fourth one. But when you are in ketosis, your body is going to shift electrolytes. We know that you need some degree of insulin signaling at the level of the kidney and the distal convoluted tubule and the descending loop of Henle, et cetera. All these parts of the kidney, all those parts of the kidney and the distal convoluted tubule and the descending loop of Henle, et cetera, all these parts of the kidney, all those parts of the glomerulus or the nephron where our body resorbs electrolytes, sodium, potassium, magnesium, chloride, these things. And without insulin signaling, that doesn't really happen in the same way. So you waste a lot of electrolytes

when you are in ketosis, which is not a big deal if it's just temporarily and you're cycling it. But if you're doing it long-term, people end up having to do massive astronomical amounts of sodium or these electrolyte replacements which are just kind of putting a band-aid on something that you shouldn't have to do and i crave salt like crazy i've never craved salt my entire life i'm not even into salt and all of a sudden now i'm craving salt yeah so if you add back carbohydrates it fixes it immediately okay it's not to say that ketosis is not valuable and doesn't have benefits, autophagy or these epigenetic benefits as a histone deacetylase inhibitor, et cetera, or isn't going to have an effect, perhaps a hormetic effect on the mitochondria, but it's not a good thing to do

long-term. And it's very hard to sort of support that long-term in terms of electrolytes. I've heard of people eating upwards of 15 grams of salt a day, and it's just, that's a massive amount to sort of, to shore up or to support this loss of electrolytes. So, and then so many things are connected with this, right? The palpitations you're getting, the heart racing is the same thing. It's an electrolyte abnormality due to inappropriately extended periods of ketosis. So you can imagine evolutionarily, if you are not eating carbohydrates, you are starving because carbohydrates were generally available, at least in the tropical regions, right around the equator, which is where most of us were for the majority of our evolution as humans. They were available year round or for much of the year. Now, getting to the northern latitudes, perhaps not all year round in the winter, but

our ancestors were going to get carbohydrates throughout the year. And so to consistently avoid carbohydrates is basically giving your body the signal, hey, you haven't gotten anything to eat. Even though you're getting meat and fat, getting some calories, you are giving this kind of signal. And it can be very beneficial long-term. I think there's a balance. There's an importance of balance here, right? You need to, you know, sometimes you're anabolic, sometimes you're catabolic. There's this autophagy benefit, et cetera. But to always be kind of in that catabolic state or pseudo-catabolic state of ketosis comes with these issues. And then that water thing is connected probably with the fact that you're eating so

much salt, you're getting to be super thirsty or you're wasting water in your kidneys in a certain way based again on this ketosis. Paul, in my studies of just nutrition over the years, I came across the concept. He does this every podcast. He's got to pee. I came across this concept of eating raw vegetables versus cooked vegetables. And that the original idea I heard was that the raw vegetables is where you're going to get the most amount of nutrients. However, you have to be in the state where you can digest those nutrients appropriately, just commonly called a rest and digest state. And that's a difficult thing to be in because you probably have to be there for a while to digest a food like a raw carrot or a raw cucumber or something like that. Is there a same thought process with meat at all? Is there a

better or worse to eat cooked or raw meat from a nutritional standpoint? It's a great question. I've thought about it a lot. I think that I don't think there's a big difference, to tell you the truth. There are those in the community who would say, oh, raw meat is better. But I really don't think that cooking meat is that harmful. Obviously, I wouldn't overcook your meat. Don't burn it.

Don't cook it in vegetable oil. Don't cook it in seed oils. Please don't cook it in olive oil. Just use the actual fat that's on the meat, which is the best fat you can get. The animal fats are the most healthy, in my opinion. But I don't think you need to eat the meat raw. And the Hadza cook everything. They're not going to eat. They didn't even eat raw organs, you know? And I definitely have eaten a lot of raw liver in my day just because I like it more that way. But they cooked everything. And I think that since we've had fire,

which is at least 500,000 years, we've been eating things cooked. So I think we can still get plenty out of the meat. Now I wouldn't overcook it. I like my steaks rare or medium rare for sure, but there's never been a good study that I'm aware of. I actually had Bill Von Hippel on my podcast and we wanted to do this experiment. We wanted to give dogs raw meat and cooked meat and see which they would prefer or see if they had a preference. I don't have a dog, so I haven't done it, but

I am curious. I mean, certainly a lot of animals do eat rare or raw meat. And I think evolutionarily as humans, we would have been scavengers first. And we've certainly been eating meat for two plus million years. And we've only had fire for 500,000. So for a lot of that, we were eating raw meat. You can eat raw meat, but I don't think there's a real nutritional difference between raw and cooked to tell you the truth, as long as you're not overcooking the shit out of it. Did the Hadza have a thought process behind the order in which they ate the baboon? Like you said, they ate the organs, then they eat the muscles, and later on they ate the brain? Or was that just kind of happened to be that way that time? I think that they eat the organs first. A lot

of tribes eat the organs first. I mean, some tribes, like the Nuer tribe in Africa, liver is so sacred, it's not even to be touched by human hands. So most tribes eat the organs first because they're, I think that they have a sense that it's precious nutrients. And they've got a whole animal with muscles, but there's only one liver and one heart. And there was one point I was with the Hadza when we had a goat. So we had, there's a group of pastoralists, the Maasai nearby, and we'd actually bought the Hadza a goat because they weren't that successful in hunting. And so this was an animal they hadn't hunted, but we were eating a goat that they butchered right there on the site. And when they got the

goat's liver out, the Hadza tribesmen literally placed it on a rock with so much care. He was holding a liver and it was just so, he was so intentional about the way he was holding this organ. Like, this is precious. I'm not going to drop this in the dirt. I'm just going to place it right here on the rock. He was so gentle with it. You could see there was a real reverence for these organs. And with the goat, they actually saved all the blood and all the organs other than the lower intestines. But the stomach, the heart, the kidneys all went into this blood and organ stew that they cooked on the fire. And it was actually pretty good. So they ate all the organs. They just, I think they understand

the organs are unique and there's usually a smaller amount of organs than there are muscle meat. So they really want to make these precious and share them among the tribe. And in Hadza culture, there's a word, it's apeam, E-P-E-M-E, which means kind of the most sacred special meats and organ meats are considered a peem as are the tenderloins and the most choice cuts of muscle meat. And if you do not share a peem meat with all of the other senior male members of the tribe, they have this sort of superstition that bad things will happen to you. So it's very it's very egalitarian, but the organs are considered a peen. They're considered sacred and you, you really are meant to share them with everyone in the tribe or you get eaten by an anaconda or something.

I was really hoping you would say the brains were the dessert. Well, they, they, they were the last thing. I mean, they certainly were the last thing we ate. They, they, they were pretty fricking good. You, you, you get these people who have these opportunities in life. Like if you go into ketosis, you start to sort of see, or if you're on any strict diet, you start to see what you really want to eat or pregnant women have that, right? You may live your whole life and just be eating what society tells you, but then there, and then we all get thirsty. So we all know that mechanism to when you're drawn to something but i think most people are just shoving food into their mouth because it's 12 noon or because they're hungry or because they're craving some sort of

stimulus but these people these hadza and i know this is so far from the from the science and the details that you pay attention to. But these people are – they wouldn't be eating this if it was bad for them. They wouldn't be eating it if it was the exact opposite, if it wasn't critical to their success because they're drawn to this the same way I was drawn to nuts at 9 o'clock at night when I was doing the carnivore diet. They're like – they're not – I mean, they're not eating this stuff. Just, I mean, what am I trying to say here? There's a, when people are living that

close to the ground, to the earth, I believe that there's a mechanism in them that we all possess, not just them, but that we've completely just destroyed or hidden from ourselves temporarily. I believe we can all get it back because we just jump in our car and go to the drive-through. And so when I hear you telling these stories about them and how they choose, chose what to eat, I feel like it's like their, their tongue is telling them, right? They know what they want to taste in order that, you know, their body and their tongue are communicating, Hey, shove the brain in and we need some of this. Well, we asked them, I mean, it was so cool to get to hang out with them. We asked them, it's not that they don't know about Western culture.

It's not that they don't know about pastoralism. There are groups of the Toga and Masai who are actually encroaching on the Hadza lands around Lake Yossi who are tending a flock of goats or, you know, they have a couple of cows or they have, you know, they're, they're, they're tending animals flock of goats, or, you know, they have a couple of cows, or they have, you know, they're tending animals. And so, and we're coming from a nearby town in Tanzania, and we're bringing cell phones, and one of the guys in our group was showing them a picture of a rhinoceros on a cell phone. They've seen this stuff. And we asked them, why don't you live differently? Why don't you take up the plow? Why

don't you become a farmer? Why don't you tend animals? And they're so prescient. Their response is, we like to live this way. We like to eat meat and we like to hunt. And they realized that these pastoralists don't eat meat the way that they get to eat meat. Because the irony of being a pastoralist with a herd of goats or a cow is that you only slaughter the goat like once every week or once every few weeks for a special occasion. The meat supply is much more limited in these pastoralists, even though they're walking around with a couple of cows or a goat. They don't kill the cow because then they can't get milk out of it. So they said to us like, we want to eat meat. We want to hunt meat. We want to eat meat as much as we can. We think

about meat. They dream about meat. When they're not hunting, they're talking about hunting. They're sharpening arrows and making bows. Like, hunting is the center of their life. They literally live and die by meat and, quote, meat and organs that they're hunting. And so they realize this is what we do. And it gives them so much joy. They tell stories about hunting. You ask them, what is the best day of your life? And they will invariably reply, the day that we hunt and kill the biggest animal

and bring it back to the tribe. It's not the day they find the biggest kale plant or the day they find the most berries or the day that they, who knows what else people would pretend. The day they ate 150 grams of fiber, which is another ridiculously false notion about the Hadza. The day that we ate all the tubers. Like, they never say that. They say it's the day we hunted and killed the biggest animal and shared it with the tribe.

And so you can really tell, like, they understand what it means to be a human. hell, like they understand what it means to be a human. And it's just comical to me because any of these plant-based advocates or any of these guys in the nutritional space who are saying, we shouldn't eat this much meat, they've never been a hunter. They've never been somewhere where their life depended on hunting animals. I bet they would immediately discard that. You know, for instance, there's lots of people out there who say you should make meat a condiment. They call it conda meat, right? And it's that guy, if he actually goes to spend time with the Hadzes, he's saying, oh, I'm only going to eat four ounces of meat today. No, he's going to eat, you're going to, you're in the wild, man.

That meat is going to determine whether you live or die. You're going to eat as much of that meat as you can. You're going to eat two kilograms of that meat if you get a big animal. So these guys who are saying this bullshit have never spent time with these tribes. They have no idea what it's like to be a human in the wild. And I can tell you from this experience with the Hadza and other times I've spent in the wilderness, you get hungry and you want meat. And it's just written into the human psyche. It's very clear. You want to hunt an animal respectfully and give gratitude

to the universe for this animal, but that is the center of your life. And yeah, you'll find some honey along the way. You'll find some berries. You'll find some baobab fruit, but your life is all about hunting. And that's what's going to determine your reproductive success in the tribe, your vitality, your really the success of future generations. And this has been demonstrated in Western culture, in all of our complex science. I mean, I think one of my favorite studies, guys, is this study where they put EEG leads, so electroencephalographic leads on somebody's head, on people's heads, to vegetarians and omnivores. And they showed them pictures of meat, right? So they can look at the way different regions of the brain light up when you show people pictures of meat. And then they can look at higher cortical regions of the brain,

like the neocortex, all the folds, and they can look at lower regions of the brain, quote unquote, like the thalamus and these sort of limbic areas, these more lizard brain areas that are like more evolutionarily aged areas of our brains. And what they found was that in omnivores, when they show an omnivore a picture of meat, both regions of the brain light up and they go, oh, I like that and I know I like that, right? Their cognition is consistent with the lower regions of their brain, which are telling them evolutionarily you like that. When they show meat to a vegetarian, their cognitive reaction is, that's gross. But the deeper regions of their brain still say, I want that.

So if this, I think you're muted, Seven. Sorry, I love that. That's awesome. I got a dog here barking next to me, sorry. Oh, yeah. I don't even know how a vegetarian would argue with that. And this goes to your question earlier, Brian. Can you eat too much meat? Just ask your brain, man. No, like your brain wants meat and it's going to react favorably to meat. Even if you're a vegetarian and you think you don't

like meat, these deeper regions of your brain, millions of years of evolution are programmed to say, I want that. And then I love the statistic, how many, what percentage of vegans and vegetarians eat meat when they get drunk? It's like 35 to 40%. Like the truth comes out, man, you can't hide it. And it's the same thing. Like you get drunk and you're, and you're all of your cognitive stuff goes away. You're like, give me some meat. That's just, you know, yeah. It's clearly programmed within us as humans. You hit on your best friend's wife and then you get caught with a hot dog in your mouth.

Yeah, yeah, right? That's exactly what happens. What is your familiarity with NK cells and their relationship to being on the carnivore diet? And that's a loaded question because I'm kind of, I, the little research I've done,

and I do a little bit every night about COVID-19 SARS-CoV-2, that basically if you have healthy NK cells, they will whoop the shit out of anything that they are quite the fierce group of cells in your body. And not only will they whip ass, but they'll report to the hypothalamus, you know body. And not only will they whip ass, but they'll report to the hypothalamus, you know, what they saw, what they did, and they'll keep a library of other coronaviruses that enter your system, et cetera, et cetera. And, um, is there, is there

anything that you can shed light on there? How far off am I or NK cells important? How are they with the carnivore diet? Well, all of the cells of your immune system are critical. And I've been speaking about this throughout all of COVID. There's a real connection between metabolic health and the health of your immune system and the ability of your immune system to fight off infections. And we've known this from the flu and diabetics. And so you must be metabolically healthy to have a healthy immune system. And NK cells are one flavor of the immune system.

Will it let me screen share here? I have a really cool study that I'll show you guys if it'll let me screen share. I don't know, but I was really impressed with your screen sharing with Gundry. What was that? What was, were you, is that just zoom? It's zoom. Yeah. Let me try and see if I can screen share. Oh yeah know but i was really impressed with your screen sharing with gundry what was that what was were you is that just zoom it's zoom yeah let me try and see oh yeah you were killing it um you also should i throw one more thing out there while you're doing this i think i got it here we go okay so have you seen this study does that study show up thymus and alpha one reduces mortality oh yeah look it's you by restoration of lymphocytopenia and reversion of exhausted T cells. And they're going to talk about CDA positive T cells here and C4 positive T cells. But do you know what thymus and alpha one

is? It's just a peptide. So it's, again, it's one of these, um, it's one of these, you know, small peptides that occurs in animal meat and organs. And you can imagine that if you have a peptide called thymus and alpha-1, it might occur in the thymus, and it actually does, you know. So it's the thymus and alpha-1 is found in the thymus, which is another reason that I love organs. And, you know, we make an organ supplement at Heart and Soil that has thymus in it, and it's called histamine and immune for a reason. So it's interesting for me that getting animal foods is going to be good for your immune system, I believe strongly because of the nutrients found in them, because you're going to cut out things like seed oils, which are going to be problematic for metabolic dysfunction. And you're going to get

unique peptides that are involved in tonicity of the immune response, whether it's splenopentin, tuftsin, and spleen, or thymus and alpha-1 and thymus. But yeah, so this is a whole area of nutrition that nobody's really talking about. The fact that your mom doesn't say, eat your spleen, eat your thymus. But she probably should. I mean, that's exactly what the hza moms are going to say to the Hadza kids. Like, eat the spleen, eat the thymus. Here's a little bit of liver, right? It's a totally different perspective.

Paul, on your website, the main video that's on there, like if you scroll down maybe a third of the way down the screen, when did you record that video? It's like you sitting by a lake. sitting by a lake? Right before we launched Heart and Soil in, I want to say June of 2020, maybe, maybe May. Oh, it's pretty recent. There's one sentence you say in there that really struck me, and it's relevant to what I think Sevan's talking about, and obviously this past year, and it says that it seems like people have come to accept disease as a new normal and i and i you know that's like obviously it's kind of a disturbing thought to have that like being sick is now kind of a normal thing or like this is accepted and i think that people like you and and savan and maybe me to a smaller degree is are like always trying to to figure out like how can we reverse that

trend and have you found any things or any success in terms of breaking through and trying to get people to see that this is not really how humans are meant to live and where is it like do you have any like plans to continue that or how do you think we can be most effective in trying to reverse that thinking yeah i love that thanks for reminding me about that. I think you're totally right, man. Whether it's COVID or diabetes or cancer or dementia or Parkinson's or Alzheimer's or strokes or autoimmune disease, this is kind of going back to what I talked about at the beginning of the podcast. The narrative within Western medicine is, oh, you got dealt a bad poker hand. Too bad for you.

You have a bad family history. And it just makes me nauseous because it's so malleable. It's so changeable. And I think this is why we all do the work we do. And so my hope, my plan is just to keep doing it. And I think that we're just all kind of part of pushing this boulder up the hill. And I've got to believe that if it doesn't happen in our lifetime, we'll hand the baton to somebody else and they'll keep pushing the boulder.

But eventually that boulder tips and there's a huge sea change. But can you imagine the righteous outrage that the majority of the population should and will feel when they realize that they've been living in this matrix, and will feel when they realize that they've been living in this matrix, that they've been living in this hypnotic state of just kind of accepting this is normal, this really insipid, weak life as normal. And so the other statement that I really like that we've made our mission statement at Heart and Soil is reclaim your ancestral birthright to radical health. Because I really think that that's the other side of the equation is like you and me, everyone listening to this has a freaking birthright to be really healthy, to kick a lot of ass in your diet. And it's

something that's been passed along through generations and it just gets lost when we're told wrong information or we're misled by propaganda and we're given food that's frankly just weak. We're given processed foods or animals that are raised improperly, or we're not giving organs. We're forsaking this birthright. We're both accepting disease and decrepitude as a normalcy when we don't have to. And we've forsaken this birthright to a much more enjoyable, full life. And that's why we do the work we do, man. I haven't figured out how to wake people up. I keep going back to that concept of inception. When I figure out how to get into the collective consciousness and their dreams, a lot more people are going to see a Paul in their dreams, just

running through their dreams and putting little ideas in people's heads. Like maybe you should question the norm. Maybe you shouldn't eat that soy sausage. Maybe that red meat is not bad for, is not good for you. You know, it's not bad for you. You know, one thing you said earlier is that the access to the organs especially is very sometimes limited and difficult. And I know that you've had some people challenge your products and just for the pills and saying like, well, you know, and goes back to maybe the same thought with the raw versus the cooked. Like, is that really a feasible first step for someone who's trying to get more of these nutrients from a different source to have these pills? And how much better or worse or is there no change in taking the pills as opposed to getting the actual meat from the animal?

Yeah, great question. Thank you. So I think it's a really viable way to start because it's so easy. You literally take a capsule and you put it in your mouth. This is what we do as Westerners, and like Savan said, we hear this all the time at Heart and Soil. People feel something with these capsules. So it's desiccated, which means it's freeze-dried. So it's not like you put it in a dehydrator or you cooked it in an oven. You basically put it in a machine that lowers the pressure so you can take the water out at like 38 degrees. It's like it's in your refrigerator and you're taking the water out. So it's the best you can do. It's kind of a miraculous technology. It's the best you can do other than having it fresh. Is fresh liver better? Probably a little bit, but I think that the majority of the nutrients,

the majority of the peptides and cofactors are preserved with this desiccation process. And it's just so much more convenient for people because the reason we make these supplements is that the majority of people won't eat spleen. They won't eat kidney. They won't eat liver. They might not even eat heart, and they're definitely not going to eat testicle or brain. But if we can put it in a pill and preserve as many of the nutrients as possible, we can make the change for people. We can give them the spark, and they think, oh, I feel different. What is going on here? And the goal is to give them that feeling, and hopefully it cascades into the rest of their life, and they

think, wow, maybe these animal foods aren't bad for me. I feel so much better. Maybe I should get more fresh liver and I'll supplement with these desiccated organs. Or maybe I should be eating less of this one plant food that's really not agreeing with me and more animal foods in general. Or maybe I should be getting in the sun more.

I mean, I talk about something called the remembering, which is my effort to make it bigger than just food, that it's all about being in nature and this need for wilderness as humans and the need for sunlight and fresh air and play and adventure and risk and community and meaning in our lives. And so that to me is the hope that this easy door, this really low first step with a desiccated organ supplement that's pretty darn nutritious is going to be the spark that'll just set somebody else's kind of domino train going down. And it's great because

like, you know, my mom, my sister, like I said in that video on our website, they're not going to eat liver, but they take the supplements and then they put it in my niece and my nephew's food and it helps them. I mean, it's such a good entryway. And I think that it's an amazing, it's an amazing starting point for people. Paul, Paul Saladino, I'm pronouncing it right, right? Saladino. Yeah. There's salad in there, man. Saladino. You want to help people improve their lives beyond just improving them. You want to make them the best they can be. You're not into arguing people's limitations for them because you have the bad habit of believing in people.

And you experiment on your own body. It's, I mean, those are the credentials you need in my book to have any validity. You have to, you don't necessarily have to walk the walk. Like if you had gained – if I talked to you now and you were eating your free Krispy Kreme donut that you got, I would be okay with that. But you've used your own – you currently are using your own body as your personal laboratory. I think that's amazing. A lot of people have eczema, right? Let's give them a takeaway here. What would you suggest that they do? If they've had it for 20 years, I've done everything. I've taken every cream. I've tried the elimination diet, blah, blah, blah. What should they do?

So the thing I would say there is that eczema is a model system for so many other autoimmune diseases. So there's people listening to this that have eczema, but I know there's more people listening to this that have lupus, Sjogren's, autoimmune thyroiditis, vitiligo, psoriasis, seborrheic dermatitis in your scalp, or any autoimmune condition, whether it's rheumatoid arthritis, et cetera. And eczema is autoimmune. And so I think that though Western medicine tries to pigeonhole these into a million different conditions, I think they're all very similar, right? They're an autoimmune manifestation of a fundamental imbalance in the human organism and a discordance between genetics

and the environment. So my recommendations for eczema would be very similar to my recommendations for all these other things, and they are start simple. It's not about creams and powders and rinses. It's about aligning your diet with your genetics. And so like we talked about at the beginning of the podcast, a carnivore diet with meat and organs and fat can be a great start to which you might then stack least toxic plant foods and see how you tolerate them. And that's what we talk about in the cookbook that's coming out later this year. And that's what I talk about it with an animal-based diet that you can start with carnivore. It's kind of this ultimate elimination diet. Most people I talk to with eczema and psoriasis haven't done that. And then you can add in the least toxic plant foods. And we touched a little bit on this. We're doing a challenge through Hardened Soil in the month of

April called an Animal Based 30. If people want to check that out, it's at animalbased30.com. Our website for Hardened Soil is hardenedsoil.co.co. But there's tons of resources there about which are the least toxic plant foods, but they're generally fruit. So whether it's sweet fruit or non-sweet fruit like olives and avocado or squash, those are the ones I would start with and kind of jettison the leaves, jettison the nuts and seeds, jettison those other foods that we've been told, like broccoli or kale or cauliflower are healthy for us, those other foods that we've been told like broccoli or kale or cauliflower are healthy for us and just focus on meat, organs, fat, salt, carbohydrates from those least toxic plant foods

and see how you do. And there's another wrinkle here that we didn't really get into. We can discuss it briefly if you'd like, which is the whole fiber rabbit hole. I think a lot of people with gut issues that are persistent do really well when they cut out fiber. There's a lot of people with gut issues that are persistent do really well when they cut out fiber. There's a lot of potential for fiber to be very irritating to the gut when people have underlying GI issues. And it's funny. I mean, like I said, I've had many people who are, quote, advocates for fiber, Gundry included, say, well, for some people, fiber irritates their gut. And I'm thinking, well, you just wrote a book telling people to eat a ton of fiber. Like, how can you not talk about that nuance? And so that's why a

carnivore diet with honey or a carnivore diet with a little bit of fruit, which is kind of a low fiber alternative can be really helpful. But I think that getting rid of the fiber in the gut can help the gut so much for people. They fart so much less. Like you said, you described it as being full, but I heard you saying and you can correct me if i'm wrong you didn't feel like bloated or distended in your stomach because never never ever ever i could eat as much meat i stopped farting as soon as i went on the carnivore diet and i was an amazing farter world class yes and um it all went away completely and you know what's funny is that within plant-based circles, they've had to take this tact where they will, they will like, uh, they will celebrate farts.

And you just think, I would celebrate one. If I had one, if I had one come back, go over and fart on your friends just for the heck of it. I have three little boys. Yeah. Right. But it's true. I mean, I, when I was an omnivore, I used to go on dates with women. This is probably why I'm still single. I used to go on dates with women. I didn't finish the sentence. I still go on dates with women. I used to go on dates with women, and I would go to restaurants, and I think I would eat

salads or whatever. And it just seemed like every time, maybe I was nervous or something, I would get these like stomach cramps and this gas. And then even by the end of dinner, I'm thinking, oh, cool. We're going to go for a walk. Maybe I'll hold her hand or maybe we're going to go back to my house and I'll get to kiss her or something. And I'm just thinking, oh, but man, I got to fart so bad. It was so much easier to be with women and to think like, I don't fart anymore. I can get in the car. I can sit in an enclosed space with a girl for two hours, and I'm not even going to leak any gas out of my butt.

And I was a vegan before, which is a whole chapter of my life, and that was a dating catastrophe because I couldn't go anywhere, much less sit on a couch for any amount of time without having to fart. So anyway. Even more street cred there, people. Did you hear that? He was a vegan. So I'm telling you, this guy uses his body as a laboratory. I mean, it's, that was one of Glassman's things too. Hey, you should be always experimenting with your body.

It's yours. Experiment with it. Yeah. Experiment, see what works. And a big part of the reason that I do the work I do is to, to demystify and to de-scare people, to de-afraid people from red meat and organs, because we've been told these are horrible for us. And there's people- Yeah, the China study, right? Yeah, the China study or other observational epidemiology studies. People are saying, don't eat so much red meat. I'm thinking, what is wrong? Why are people doing this? And so they don't ever get these most nutrient-rich foods. And they just end up thinking,

well, I know red meat is bad for me because everybody knows red meat is bad for me. And they don't even know about liver. I'm just not eating enough fiber, which is the answer for these people. They eat more kale, and they get more gas, and they get worse. And they end up despondent because they've gone down this path. And it's completely misled them. So gas is masculine.

It kind of is. But the long answer to your question is if you have eczema or psoriasis or an autoimmune issue, think about simplifying your diet, start with animal meat and organs and fat, desiccated organs if you want them, and then add in the least toxic plant foods. And I think you're going to feel a lot better. I know you have to go in like nine minutes. So I'm going to ask you just some easy ones. Coffee. I'm not a fan. And every time I say that, it's like I said earlier, I just kicked somebody's puppy again. People get so offended. Like, chill out, people. I didn't just trip your grandma. Like I just told you that I just don't like plant seeds and i don't like i don't like liquid

brewed with burned plant seeds what should i do for caffeine if i want to get high why do you want to use caffeine man like good good answer my opinion my opinion is that caffeine these stimulants nootropics but generally the methyl xanthines and this can include theobromine and chocolate or matine and mate, they're borrowing tomorrow's happiness today. And we can say the same thing about alcohol. You can say the same thing about any drug. And it's like, look, if you need to borrow tomorrow's happiness today to get through, to make an important business presentation, do what you got to do. But if you keep doing it, that bank account is going to go empty eventually. And it's just not a good thing. And yet coffee is

sacrosanct within our culture. And I don't know why. So not a fan. Well said. How many people are... So for me, quitting alcohol was very, very, very easy. But as soon as I quit alcohol, I started craving chocolate. And I had friends tell me before, I had my friend Dave Castro tell me that, hey, I think a lot of people who are alcoholics are actually just insulin resistance. They're just chasing the sugar and alcohol. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Makes sense. I mean, it's very possible. I think that, sadly, we know that the majority of the population has at least one indicator of some degree of metabolic dysfunction. And when you look at these studies, there's a great study, I don't have it at the tip of my fingers, but I can maybe send it to you if you want to post it. There's a great study where they looked at people who were admitted to a hospital with heart attacks and about a third of them were known diabetics. And then you look at the rest of the people and you test their fasting glucose and you realize that another third of them actually have pre-diabetes based on their

fasting glucose or they have unknown diabetes. And then you look at their fasting insulin and they figure out that like another 20% of them have an impaired fasting insulin. And so you discover like, holy moly, like people admitted to the hospital with heart attacks, even though only a third of them are known diabetics, when you actually look and you uncover and you turn over some stones, like 80 to 85% of them had underlying metabolic dysfunction. And then, you know, probably the 15% that didn't had heart attacks that were not related to the same process of atherosclerosis. There's different ways you can have heart attacks that are not related to that. So it's profound. It's

just, it's staggering how big a deal this is and how pervasive it is. So even if you think you're not diabetic, you should work with a provider or someone who can really dig in and look and understand your insulin resistance and your metabolic health at a very precise level. That's important not to ignore. It's amazing that you say that because everyone knows this number, 94% of the people who died from SARS-CoV-2 that manifested into COVID-19 had underlying conditions. The really, really even scarier part is that on the CDC website,

if you look in the really small print, the other 6%, they don't have files on. So it's not that they didn't have comorbidities, it's they have no data on them, which at that point, I'm like, yeah, because I'm convinced. I'm not as safe as you are. I believe that every single person who's died from COVID-19 has had comorbidities or congenital birth defects. COVID-19 has had comorbidities or congenital birth defects. The 96 people that I've Googled that they've said who are healthy, 95 of them were crazy obese, like eyes missing and ears missing because they were so fat. The one guy who wasn't obese was a pro cyclist or a near pro cyclist. And they are also notorious for having poor immune systems because they stuff those goo things in them and they're six foot four and 145 pounds and so on one hand like everything that you're saying to me it's like yeah how do people not see this but on the other hand we have

a chronic disease my words epidemic that's masquerading as a covid pandemic and no one can see it even though all like if you can do fourth grade math all the numbers are there i i i'm i'm flummoxed at at at this um and that's where the name calling starts like i don't call them names but then they start hurling slurs at me i'm like two plus two is four it's not not my fault. I mean, like. I'm similarly despondent about the statistics. And like you suggested, I mean, I hope people understand that the Krispy Kreme reference was the fact that yesterday,

Krispy Kreme donuts announced that if you show them your vaccination card for COVID-19, you get a free donut for the rest of the year. Like what kind of messed up world are we living in when that is, that's the case because there's no connection between obesity or diabetes and COVID outcomes, or we have such a. It's their base. It is.

If they, they're, they, they need their base. They'll lose customers. If, if, if the whole world doesn't take vaccinations, their base is the most susceptible to dying from COVID-19. So they want to reward them, reward all of us to take the injection. And, you know, it's it to me, it's a it's an indication of the myopia with regard to the COVID vaccine that I've rebelled against in tandem with you since the beginning. And again, people do want a name call and they want to distort your words and say you're you're against the COVID-19 vaccination, which is a whole different story.

But my problem is that the COVID vaccination isn't going to fix your diabetes, obesity, heart disease, chronic illness. Exactly. And Krispy Kreme is happy to feed into it and just make it worse. It's just like, what are you doing? I am okay with anyone. I'm okay with anyone who wants to wear masks to wear masks. I'm okay with anyone who wants the vaccine to get the vaccine. I'm okay with anyone who wants the vaccine to get the vaccine. I'm okay with anyone who wants to quarantine to get the quarantine.

I would even support supporting them and helping them get it. It's to force the other people down that rabbit hole under this pseudo-compassion and empathy when the statistics show that we could be letting people under 50 years old out to get SARS and be protected. I'd like to point out one more thing along that, that I watched your video the other day and it caught my attention. You went to the VAERS website, that's the CDC incident site for people who've had issues with the vaccine where you report incidents. And in that, you say that this is a voluntary database and that the numbers could be 10 times higher even because it's voluntary.

And they could all be wrong. We don't know. But in there, there were 974 deaths in the United States from the SARS-CoV-2. No, it's not a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine. I apologize. From the COVID-19 vaccine. So let's say that doctors are being really bad and it's really only half that many people died. Let's go the opposite way. Maybe it's 10 times higher, but let's go the opposite way and say only 480 people have died from the SARS, from the COVID-19 vaccine. Well, if you go back to 1963, when they started administering the measles vaccine. In the previous years before then, like the five years previous before then, the reason why measles was so dangerous was because 400 to 500 kids were dying every year

and the year's building up. So less people were dying from measles, which required a vaccine, than are dying from the vaccine that's being used for COVID-19. So now we need another vaccine to save the lives of the people. I mean, did that make sense? Sorry, I know that was a lot of numbers. But basically they made a vaccine for measles because 400 or 500 people were dying a year in the 60s. And 974 people have died already from the covid-19 vaccine i'm

i'm confused yeah it's man it's like the covid-19 vaccination is super controversial i'm not going to take it because i've had covid-19 and i'm metabolically healthy and i don't there's no point so if they if they mandate it, it'll be a rebellion because that would be, I think, an infringement of many of our rights, especially those people who can demonstrate antibodies. But it's scary. I mean, like you said, the potential is that 10,000 people have died from the COVID vaccination. And then we say, well, how many lives have been saved? Hard to say. But I think that longitudinally, unless we can help people understand that if they're obese and they're metabolically unhealthy, their risk is continued. The COVID vaccination is maybe going to protect you from COVID, but you are still at a high risk of everything else.

And that's what we're talking about in this podcast. How do you fix your metabolic dysfunction? Well, you have to get the right nutrients. You have to avoid seed oils. And those things are not being to avoid seed oils. And those things are not being talked about at all. And that's the example we had with the Krispy Kreme donut shop. They're just as happy to feed into your metabolic dysfunction right after you get the COVID vaccine. So it's a crazy world. I mean, it's just, I don't know why people aren't talking

about it. Well, I have suspicions that it's, nobody cares because it's pharma and it's big ag and it's processed foods and it affects their bottom line. So who knows? Last question. It's easy. Yes or no. Have you ever done a podcast where you talk about you, your history, where you were born, where you grew up, how you got into skateboarding, why your first girlfriend dumped you? No, no, I haven't done that. You know, somebody actually, somebody actually mentioned that to me the other day. They were like, you should have someone on your podcast interview you you and i was like oh i could do that yeah yeah i mean that's why i do these podcasts and other people's podcasts but yeah maybe maybe you could interview me on my

podcast oh it's it's my specialty it's my special my specialty i would love to know what makes you i would love to know what makes you tick we should do it man i love it okay thank you so much for your time paul oh man it's a pleasure to be with you guys um sorry i gotta run i'm gonna go do another podcast but oh i thought you were going surfing you're pissing me off i'm like i went surfing this morning i went surfing this morning but it was not beyond me to tell you that i had a quote commitment and i had to go in the ocean but yeah i'm gonna do another podcast now awesome do you wear a helmet when you skateboard no i, I don't.

Um, damn it. It's uh, you can't be perfect in my eyes. I know it's, that's all right. I, everybody says that,

but it's, I'm just using like a carving board. I'm not anyway. Yeah. Paul, if you could only, Paul, if you could only do one for the rest of your life,

surf or skateboard. Oh, sir. For sure. That's what I thought. Sir. Don't paul please don't close your browser um until it tells you can you do that yeah i'll just i'll just hit hang up and i'll leave the browser open you're awesome thanks brother love you guys i'll talk to you soon bye thank you thank you bye