The Sevan Podcast - #220 - Brian Butler-Au

Episode Date: November 30, 2021

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And I was like, oh shit, is that me? Because that guy needed to turn the energy up a little bit. Do you think that, do you think, like, this isn't, on this podcast, this isn't like 100% me. This is like me turned up. You know what I mean? I mean, it's kind of me, but it's a turned up version of me. You know what I mean by that? I do.

It's amped up. Hi, Brian. Hey, guys. How are you doing? Good morning. Good. Awesome. Good morning, Brian.

Just three dudes living the dream. Yeah. Well, hopefully you guys had a good holiday. Oh, yeah. Every day is good. How many kids do you have brian i have two do you want me to turn my camera vertical i want you to put it how you think you look most handsome i don't like being on camera to start with so it doesn't matter to me no there's not enough

room for two people not to like the way they look so that's my job what are you talking about uh i uh matt what do you think i know i like that looks perfect no yeah look at not to like the way they look. That's my job. What are you talking about? Matt, what do you think? No, I like his camera. Oh, that looks perfect. Yeah, look at that room. Are you in a bar? I'm in my home bar, yeah.

It's kind of my little man cave. Oh, that's badass. That's awesome. In what state are you in, Brian? I'm in Virginia. Awesome. Thanks for doing this. Did we have any scheduling issues? Did we have any time issues or seven? This is the right time that you thought? No, it's perfect for me because I was just kind of getting my day going. So 7, 7 a.m. Eastern would have been way too early for me. I don't know how you guys are up right now.

Well, when you ask, how's your day going? I have three little boys. I have two four-year-olds and a six-year-old, and I wake up every single morning. The only thing I can compare it to as superficial as it sounds is when I was a graduate from high school, my mom bought me a truck. And I would wake up every morning and go look in the driveway and be like, holy cow, I have a Toyota truck. And it's like that. I run over, I get up, and I'm like, oh, my God, I have three little boys. I can't even believe it. So every day is great. And that's why I do the podcast so early so I can get this out of the

way and then spend the day, you know, wrestling boys. Gotcha. Gotcha. Uh, Virginia, by the way, I can't tell you how great it is that you did this. Thank you so much. Um, I know dealing with people. So those of you who don't know who are listening, Brian, and correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I can tell what Brian does is Brian is the surrogate parent to many, many, many dreamers. And what I mean by that is he's taken on the immense, immense responsibility of guiding people through achieving their dreams. And most of these people i believe their dreams is to be the best fighters in the world to that's correct professional babysitting and i was looking up the word linchpin i i should have kept it up here but basically you're the linchpin in these people's lives. And maybe they have multiple linchpins, but there are these extremely, extremely talented people in a realm where they need to focus on their talents. And then you sort of point their talents to the right way.

A linchpin, a person or thing vital to enterprise or organization. So imagine you want to be the world's best astronaut, and yet making a space shuttle that doesn't explode isn't your job. And that's Brian's job, Brian Butler's job. He is going to have the space shuttle so these fighters can get onto it, and then they have to get to space. Yeah, I guess kind of, maybe. Sometimes more valuable to some fighters than others. You know, a manager's job is to just make sure that everything stays in line for the fighter. We can maximize their career, the length of their career, maximize the money in their career so that they can actually make a career out of it.

And, you know, it's kind of like, you know, it's like insurance. You don't need a manager until you need a manager. And a lot of times that gets forgotten. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes that nobody would ever know about. But I can tell you it is a full-time job and it is 24-7. And there's a – and this was fascinating as I started digging into some of the stuff that you've been through. There's a moral responsibility, and that would carry through everywhere you go, but it doesn't. Unfortunately, you know, there is a lot of dirt bags in this business. I have, you know, made it a mission to keep ourselves, you know, above that fray. And we've been successful at doing it. But when I got into this business, I thought it was martial arts. I thought everybody was going to be respectful, you know, you know, all this stuff, but no, it's, uh, there's a lot of seedy people in it for sure. because it's just that one hamburger, and yet it doesn't show good character in its line.

But literally, there's people's lives on the line in your business. I mean it's no different than a doctor, I feel like, what you're doing. I mean I don't know about that. I mean doctors are actually saving the person's life. I get the person to the cage or to the event, and it's on them to, you know, once the door shuts, there's nobody in there but the athletes themselves. And, you know, I think that's why the sport is so great because, you know, you never know. One punch with these little gloves can change the outcome for everything.

Even if there's a massive favorite, everybody remembers when George St. Pierre fought Matt Sarah, you know? So it's it's, it's what makes the sport great. By the way, Brian, this is Matt. Matt's the producer of the show and somehow sometimes he sneaks onto the show. I don't know how he does that. I just stay silent and hope he doesn't forget I'm on here.

Or you hope I do forget. Yeah, excuse me. I hope I do forget. That way I just get to stay on the whole time. Brian, why is there an AU after your – do you pronounce your last name Butler? Butler Au. Au is my Chinese family name. I'm half Chinese and half Irish.

Wow. So on my legal documents and stuff like that, I have the Au on there. Sometimes it gets dropped off but i always try to remember it and who is uh chinese your mom or your dad my dad my mom was irish like fresh off the boat irish from tipperary so oh wow and where did they meet what state did they they met in new york or no no they met in london i was born in hong kong oh wow and uh and when did you come to the states uh so my parents got divorced when i was like six and then my mom moved us to canada and we lived in canada for a few years and i came to virginia and when i was in the sixth grade and then she she married uh my stepfather Al who's

a phenomenal person um and uh we were military brats so then I went to school in Spain for two years lived in Somalia for two years Singapore kind of all over the place um go yeah it's nuts huh now I'm starting to understand something else that I saw the pieces are starting to come together uh what was the word you used you said your you said your mom was fresh off the boat in Tipperary. What was that word you used? Tipperary. What's that? That's the, the, the place in Ireland. She's from the city in Ireland. Oh, okay. So when I said New York, you're like, aren't you listening? Got it. Okay. I knew somewhere I missed it. I knew. And, um, so, um, and is your dad gone? Is your dad gone out of your life at that point when your mom moves to Canada? No, no, no. My dad was,

I went back to Hong Kong every summer and stayed all summer with my dad until I was 18. Uh, and he was a big part of my life. Uh, he passed away right before I started this, this business and he was a lifelong martial artist. So he would have gotten a real kick out of all of this. But yeah, he, I actually flew him here and he had, he'd gotten colon cancer and I took care of him here in the States until, until he passed. And do you have siblings? I have two brothers. Yeah. Wow. And are you the oldest? I'm the middle child. Oh. Yeah, both my brothers are military, federal agent type things. I'm the black sheep. There's a Forrest Gump quality to your story. When I hear you being interviewed on other podcasts, you put your head down and you

go, and it seems like your life has just flowed. There is a, um, you work hard, you see opportunities, you roll, your demeanor obviously is just so, uh, you have such equanimity, your chill, um, and I, and we'll go back and fill in some of the, some of the things I'm referring to, but do you see yourself as like that? Sort of like a Labrador, you see a ball, you chase it, you don't worry about too many other things, you just are laser focused and go? I don't know. People have told me that I'm chill. I don't know. I feel like I can be emotional. I get emotionally attached to clients. I get, you know, but I feel like I have to be chill because this, you know, certain times in this business, it spikes up and it spikes down. And yeah, I mean, you have really no choice other than to keep your head down and keep moving forward.

Otherwise, you can get stuck in either one of those positions. And, you know, nothing good comes from that. of those positions and you know nothing good comes from that yeah i guess more what i mean is if i would have asked you 25 years ago if you would be the ceo and founder and a manager of a no no right yeah no i had an ad agency for 13 years before i started this business um and i was running that i started that when i was in in college back at VCU. And I thought that was what I was going to do. I've always been a creative, you know, artist, designer, whatever you want to call it. So I thought that was going to be my life. And I enjoyed that. And I was lucky and fortunate to be able to have that as my first business. And it was successful. And like,

I was passionate about that. But I fell into this just because I was behind a computer all day, you know, uh, at that job and I was getting out of shape. I was getting what I call computer body. And, uh, I joined this martial arts gym, mixed martial arts gym, because I saw there was a boxing ring in it. And I was like, okay, so this is real. This is not like katas and karate and stuff like that. Cause I did that as a kid.

And I just don't think that was very functional and practical in real life. You wanted, you wanted something that you could use at the ATM if someone, something got squirrely. I just, well, yeah, I wanted something. Yeah. Like that. And I wanted to be able to, yeah, that's basically it. Um, and yeah, I joined that gym. And, uh, from there, my coach slowly, he found out that I own this ad agency and he asked me if i would help him

promote a local show and um i said okay i'll do it but i'm not going to pay any more gym dues it'll be my trade and uh from there we we ran a little show here in richmond and i brought in a special guest as part of the marketing plan was to bring in fans i brought in jens pulver who was the first ufc lightweight champion but he was just coming off of hosting or coaching the ultimate fighter reality show at the time so he was hot at the moment and also he's a legend so i feel like he was he's always going to have that presence about him uh and he and i hit it off and he asked me if i would be his agent he was like man he's like you know he's like business needs somebody like you i showed him my office downtown and everything and he asked me to be his agent i had no clue i was i was a fan so i was like oh my god He's like, business needs somebody like you. I showed him my office downtown and everything.

And he asked me to be his agent. I had no clue. I was a fan. So I was like, oh my God, chance of all of her asking. So I said, okay. And I just did it. Like you said, Labrador, I guess I ran when he threw that ball at me. He was making his return to WEC for Zufa, fighting Cub Swanson. And I did it.

And from there, I was just hoping I did a good job. I had no clue what I was doing. Um, I just used all of my marketing, um, knowledge and branded and packaged him and made him look as slick as possible. He used all of my corporate contacts to sponsor him up. And I guess everybody noticed when he walked in the cage that night, um, he was one of the sharpest looking guys with the most sponsors, most unique sponsors. And from there, another fighter named Jeff Curran introduced himself to me and the phone started ringing from that point forward. And I had to balance which business I was going to stay in because I was really passionate about both. But I felt like I was at the door, you know,

the ground level of AOL, like the janitor that got stock. You know, when this started, I felt like I was at the door, you know, the ground level of AOL, like the janitor that got stock, you know, when, when, when this started, I felt like the doors keep opening for me. I better keep walking through them. So I did that. And it got, it got really squirrely at one point because sucker punch was not making the income that my ad agency was making. And I had a couple of houses and I ended up having to pay mortgages, you know, for like nine months on a credit card, which was pretty scary. But I kept thinking I'm doing something's right. Something's happening right. Cause I'm talking to people on the phone that most people couldn't pick up the phone and call. So, you know, one day I remember, and I still have the mindset today. I remember all the bills were paid one month and then I was like, shit, okay, let's not say

anything. And then the next month the bills were paid again and I didn't say anything. And again and again, and here I am now 14 and a half years later. And I still think that, but, uh, it's, you know, it was the best move that I, that I ever made. Cause I still use my marketing knowledge and background in this business today. I'm just marketing people instead of companies um so many so many things i i did hear this story i listened to a couple other podcasts you were on one of the things i found interesting nuance but that you say that you traded your gym you you traded your work for your gym membership but you had already paid for the year so you paid your gym membership for the year and then you'd only been there two months and then you made the trade.

So you were out 10 months membership. And that's another quality. I've been training there for over 10 years now and I haven't paid the gym dude since. And Brian Crenshaw, my coach, is one of my good friends now. And we help each other whenever we can. And yeah, so there's no issues. And I like that story because I think that's a trait that I have also that I would go in somewhere and I would want to pay for the year and I would be done with it. And I would do it for two reasons.

I would recognize that this guy's a business owner and he needs to make money. I don't like people like asking people like I would never ask my my jujitsu where my kids go and do jujitsu five days a week for a deal on a membership, unless I was desperate and needed it because I need that place to succeed. And so I just love the fact that you did that because it shows your investment in somewhere that it's your life and you're going to bring your entire life there three, four, five days a week and give your life to that place. Yeah. And I knew it right you know it was it was extremely different than anything i'd ever done and i knew i knew i was i was hooked so i've been training ever since so hey that that au is cool on your name also because i'm sure you know this but it's the

it's the someone people say it's gold yeah yeah and And they were like, oh, are you that cocky where you think you're gold? And I was like, oh, man. That's so awesome. I didn't think about that. Last night I had a – Are you gold or something? I don't know. We had a live show last night, and I was telling people you were coming on the show, and I was pontificating on what AU meant, and that's what people threw out there, that it's the gold in the periodic chart.

Definitely not that egotistical and and will you tell there was another part of the story that i really liked about when you were how the concept in your head of how you made the sign the clothing for um jen plope what was his name jen's Pulver. Jen's Pulver. We talk about that, about the packaging, the inspiration, what it came from. Do you remember that part? Yeah. It was so long ago, and in my head, I'd followed the UFC since the very beginning.

So I was a huge fan, and my head it was big. When I got inside the inner circle of it, I started seeing that the infrastructure was nothing. The only thing that was big was the actual UFC. The companies that took care of the fighters and the sponsorships and all that stuff, there was nothing there. So it was kind of like the wild, wild west. So back then people would get their sponsors, they'd have a black vinyl banner thrown over the cage and they just throw logos up like postage stamps all over it. And then the fighters would come out wearing, yeah, the fighters would come out wearing, you know, red shorts with a green shirt and nothing, nothing was packaged. And, and the, the, the sponsorships that were represented on the

athletes weren't represented appropriately, in my opinion, as a, as a designer and a marketer. So I took that opportunity to, uh, in my head, when Jen's walked to the cage, I told myself he was going to look like an action figure. You know, when you buy it, you know, I, I used to collect GI Joes when I was a kid and the packaging for them, they used to have the cardboard background and then you'd have the little action figure standing inside the little plastic bubble. Um, and I wanted Jen's to to look like that i wanted everything to match so i wanted and all of the sponsors that were taking care of them i wanted to have the appropriate hierarchy on them so that they would get the the fair play on tv as well so when he came out that's what i

did i designed it it looked like he was wearing a uniform and he looked like an action figure and when he stood in front of his banner before the fight when his name was being announced, it looked like he had that cardboard backing of the action figure toy package. So that was kind of my thought. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. And then immediately you got another client because of that. Yeah, Jeff Curran, who is also now still one of my one of my best friends he's retired now as well he's a pioneer and a legend as well big frog uh he fought in the main event that night against uriah faber and i had seen jeff on the reality show tap out uh and i remember i watching that

show i i actually liked him a lot because um yep that's him i actually liked him a lot because, um, yep, that's him. I actually liked him a lot because the way he carried himself. Cause the, the guys from tap out were crazy. They were like throwing fireworks in the gym and stuff like that. And Jeff was like, guys, we got to train, you know, like he settled everybody. He took the role of a, what you would think a leader would do and calmed everything down so that we could focus on training. So I liked his demeanor then. And I actually walked up to him after the show and introduced myself to him and just told him that. And then I guess the following week he got my number from Jen's or somebody, and he ended up calling me. And he asked me if I would represent him too, because he liked what I did with Jen's.

And then he said that he would give me his entire fight team. And at that time, Jeff had one of the biggest gyms in the Chicago area and a huge fight team. So he gave me all of the athletes in his gym to represent. And I was like, man, I'm on my way. Still wasn't making any money or not much. And then, yeah, it just kept growing from there. What year was this? 2007. You know what's interesting about that?

Paralleled in my – and how old are you, Brian? 50. Okay. I'm 49. I turned 50 in March. In 2006, I came across this thing. I was producing some shows for espn some arm wrestling shows and i came across a guy who was really buff and we started he was one of the

security guards there and uh we started talking he told me he did this thing called crossfit and he told me about how he worked out and i just thought he was lying because no one there's no way anyone does that stuff and then i went home and I looked online and yep, there was something called CrossFit that was pretty wild. This was in 2006. And at the, in somewhere in 2006, I emailed the owners of CrossFit, Greg Glassman and Lauren Glassman, his wife at the time. And I said, Hey, you guys need videos on your website. And you remember the web then was slow as shit. Like people were afraid to even put pictures on the web. Like then the sites wouldn't pull up and fast enough. Right. Right. But they started making me have videos for them. And then flash forward,

I ended up being there for 15 years and I worked the first year there for free. And then by the end I was the media director, uh, went from 300 gyms to 15,000 gyms. I was maybe the top executive company. Yeah. And I just climbed the ranks and I just stayed, I, I, I just put my head down. I was, I was living in my motor home at the time. Just, you know anytime someone would call me i would just go out and make a show for them or commercial or whatever but i was just living the dream on the beach and uh it's it's funny that it happened right around

that same time oh yeah that's cool that's a cool story and uh and i and i think i i think greg and i'm not sure if i was in the meeting we met with the Tap Out guys, and I think that their story was basically they made a fortune on t-shirts, right? Oh, they made a killing, yeah. I think they flew out to Prescott to meet with Greg in a G5 or something like that. Or maybe they didn't have a G5. Maybe it was a G4. They were killing it. They were a huge company at one point.

Everybody had it. What happened to them? Did just brands come and go? Does no one wear stuff anymore? Well, Charles, the owner, passed away in a tragic car accident. Oh, shit. I didn't know that. He was called Mask. He was the one that had the face paint. And Scrape and Punkass are the two others that were his partners. Once he passed away, he was kind of, he definitely was the visionary for, you know, putting the brand out there. I know Dan and Scrape, they were also doing a lot.

Dan was a lot of the business infrastructure behind the scenes. was a lot of the business infrastructure behind the scenes. But I think Charles was the guy that really pushed the marketing and really pushed the boundaries with everything. And once he passed away, I think it took a personal toll on all three of them. Yeah, that's him in the middle there because they were all best friends. I don't know how far back they went, but they were very, very close. And when that piece of the puzzle was gone, I don't know if they had the motivation to keep it going. So I think they sold the company or the licensing rights to the company to another company, which took it over, and they don't really have anything to do with it anymore.

You know what? I'm just thinking this. So I'm a huge fan of the UFCc and i'm trying to get more into more into mma in general you know i'm trying to have it broaden my interest to bellator there's only so much time in the day right but and if you're just into the ufc just it's three hours every saturday and then if you want to dip into the contender series and tough and now and now you're interested in bellator now you're over going to europe to cage warriors it's like my god this is getting to be a ridiculous too much but that being said i love the ufc i love dana white i love everything they stand for i i um i think it's sort of a um sometimes i wonder if it's a you know i don't eat i don't eat sugar but sometimes i feel like this enjoying fighting is like eating sugar it's like almost like a uh yeah it's i mean it's it's a pretty

pure sport you know and everybody says is it fixed you know and like like everybody says boxing is fixed and stuff like that um no people say that i've that's funny i've never thought that boxing well i thought i mean back in the day when i was a kid i would hear stuff like that about don king but you know i was in the fourth grade and yeah you know i don't know i i i don't know the intricacies of boxing as much i can tell you that when you get a boxer that's like got a record of like 30 you know you know you there's probably 27 people on that guy's record that shouldn't be there like that kind of thing but i don't think that i mean like i don't think that there's i i i can't see where anybody is taking a dive you you know, like, oh, I'm going down in the third.

I mean, I'm sure it's happened, and I've heard of that. But you mean more fixed, like, imbalanced workouts? Imbalanced matches. Imbalanced matches. Matches, okay. Yeah, yeah, where the UFC does not really do that. You know, the UFC is – everybody in the UFC is good, every single one of them. uh every every single every single one of them um and there's even and the sport is getting so popular now that there's even fighters in i mean these smaller shows you know cage warriors titan

cffc lfa you know all these shows have fighters that are ufc caliber guys uh that could come up and they do this is where the ufc pulls their athletes from they pull them from these regional shows and these guys burst onto the scene, and sometimes they're destroying people right out at the end of the – where has this guy been this whole time? And where I was going with that, the tap-out thing and the UFC thing is I would never wear UFC gear. I just wouldn't. I'm not interested in anyone thinking that I think I'm a fighter. I just think of UFCfc gear but i would wear tap out gear maybe do you know what i mean like well that's what that's what tap out took

off i think initially tap out blew up because when you wore a tap out shirt you you immediately felt tougher and a lot of people did that you know because they were like oh man he's wearing a tap out shirt you must know how to fight you know and that's you know well shit then never mind i'm not wearing that no i mean but that's that's that's why it exploded because there was a certain level of you know uh confidence behind that brand uh but then and but then what happened is like like like van dutch you know um Everybody had it. That's when it started to lose a little bit, I think.

I honestly think it was when Charles died. Who knows where that company would be right now if he was still around. I don't think anyone should be wearing a CrossFit shirt who doesn't do CrossFit either. Whatever that means, I don't think that. My mom's 77 years old. She's been doing CrossFit shirt who doesn't do CrossFit either. I mean, whatever that means. I don't think that. But like my mom, my mom's 77 years old.

She's been doing CrossFit since she's 69. She puts on a CrossFit shirt and she wears it to her book club reading. And like, you know, all the other women know that my mom will fucking outrun them if there's a fire in the building. She's gone. You know what I mean? They know that she'll run down the stairs. They know she can do a pistol. They know she can, you know, back squat 80 pounds.

And you should wear that shit with pride it's you should know that like yeah i go to the gym three days a week and i hurt yeah i i also don't see a problem with you know if you're a fan like if you're a motley crew fan and you have a motley crew concert tee you know it doesn't mean you think you're singing with motley crew but right right you're a fan member now. Right. Yeah, yeah. I don't have a problem with fans wearing it. I think MMA has – I mean, I will say they have the best fans and they have the worst fans.

And I think a lot of sports say that, but MMA fans can be incredible, but they can also be the biggest bunch of assholes you've ever met. So, uh, cause everybody's got, everybody's got to criticize, Oh, keep your hands up. You know, he only dropped his hand, went through the shut up, you know, like, unless you're going to do it, shut up, you know, but, uh, yeah, but I don't have a problem with when I see people wearing the shirt. I think it's cool to see that the sport's growing. Yeah, I agree. I agree with you. I just see, um, it, it, it, it's my own hangup, but with CrossFit, I sort of I agree with you. I just see it and it's my own hang up. But with CrossFit, I sort of see it as a cult. And I don't say that with any negative or pejorative, nothing derogatory. I just see it as a cult, just like I don't wear a cross because I don't I'm not a Christian.

You know what I mean? Like I just sort of see it that way. But yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, I'm trying to think I saw it. You said something about, um, like the fights aren't set up and good fighters fight good fighters and the UFC is the real deal and everyone's good. I was just seeing who might fight Daniel Rodriguez next. Oh yeah. So there's two guys who could be superstars, Daniel Rodriguez. Um, he's the, the welterweight.

And then I saw Kevin Holland is dropping down to welterweight and then i saw kevin holland is dropping down to welterweight and that they might match these two up and there's a perfect example of two guys that they might want to preserve to meet like in three years right or in two years you have these two guys who are amazing but instead they're fucking they might throw them in the same cage in february and we might see these yeah Yeah, it could happen. It just depends on, you know, when a fighter changes weight classes like that, they they're they're ranking doesn't necessarily stay. So they kind of become fair game to anybody that might be a good test for them in that new division. So the UFC does not, you know, seldom do I see them trying to protect anybody when it comes to matchups. They want to put on good fights, exciting fights, and that's where it's at.

I'd love to see Kevin Holland down there and see what he can do. He's an exciting fighter. Yeah, and Daniel Rodriguez is amazing. fighter yeah and daniel rodriguez is amazing yeah um i think a lot of people see your job as kind of the dream job i went to uc santa barbara and there was the kids who like wanted to be a manager so bad right and they and they collected bands the local bands and they would have like 10 bands that you know lived in town and they would and they sort of played – they put the cart before the horse, so to speak. They started playing manager and then got the bands. And I've made 10 movies, 10 documentaries, maybe more, and I never viewed myself as a director of movies.

I just couldn't for some reason – I just made movies. Do you see yourself – so go ahead. Yeah. That's the other part of it you know for in in the mma space like i told you when i got in it was a wild wild west there's no certifications to be a manager or to do anything like that you just if you could get to know people and put together your own roster and represent them properly you you keep moving forward till the next day um and it's still kind of like that today. There's no real certifications. I mean, there are, there are now there are established companies, you know,

and thankfully we're one of them. But there are people coming in this sport every day that are trying to be managers and they don't know. I, it's, it's, I feel hypocritical saying they don't know what they're doing. Cause I didn't know what I was doing, but I mean, they come in, I think the biggest mistake they make is they come in and they're thinking the UFC is now, you know, when I thought it was big back then. Well, it's huge now. It's even bigger now. So they're coming in and they fill their fighters' heads with expectations that are not correct. And they're like, oh, you know, oh, you should have a Nike deal or you should have this and that. Like, it's just not there yet. You don't're like, well, you know, Oh, you should have, you should have a Nike deal

or you should have this. And like, it's just, it's not there yet. You don't even compete in shoes, you know? Um, so it's a lot of, a lot of, uh, rookie managers come in and, and, and kind of muddy the water a little bit there. And, you know, sometimes they go to other companies and they come up in the other companies and, and that's fine too. But again, uh, the biggest problem you see there is that these, these, these guys don't know how to develop their own clients. So they go out and they try to steal clients, uh, from other management companies. And then they, they talk about, you know, what they're going to promise the promise, the moon to these athletes. And, and, you know, you would hope that the athletes are smarter than that, but sometimes they, sometimes they aren't, you know, people get in people's ears. It happens in, in Hollywood. It happens in all other sports, uh, you know, um, and that's, you know, that's what you're always constantly battling. Um, there's a, in CrossFit, there's an athlete named Matt Fraser. He won the CrossFit games five times. He ended up getting a big Nike contract. He's got a huge following. And when

he's basically CrossFit followed the same path that what you were saying and his manager, Matt O'Keefe is in similar shoes to you. He met Matt. He wasn't a manager. He started managing Matt. They built an insane friendship. Matt became a superstar and along the way o'keefe was really good to him really good to his career a really positive influence they had great synergy and now this guy matt o'keefe has all the biggest athletes and in crossfit he's got the biggest events he's got an incredible reputation um and and he they they kind of they grew each other yeah through the through the relationship. And he talks similar to you. I think he would refer to Matt as his best friend. Yeah. I mean, I can see how that

industry and sport would grow in a very similar fashion. Cause it did kind of come up pretty quickly and grow very fast. I don't follow it. Uh, but I've, I've been, I've been approached several times, uh, you know, on, if we would take on CrossFit athletes and stuff like that. But it's just not my wheelhouse. You know, I don't want to. And, yeah, MMA wasn't my wheelhouse when I started either. But I feel like I know this sport so I can speak confidently about it. I don't know the CrossFit end at all.

I didn't follow it before or any of that. So, you know, we're, we're, we're staying focused and, uh, you know, happy to do what we're doing. You say you're staying focused. You say, but there is creep. You have great clients like Paul Felder who are forcing you to get into TV movies. Well, I mean, and I'm so excited when I see that, by the way, because my question to you is, is he taking on actors and actresses? Would he take on an NBA star? And I'm like, oh shit, his clients are going to force him out of UFC. Not out as in to leave it, but to expand. Yes, yes. If the path goes there, everything in all business is about networking and who you know and how you get to know the people.

So as I get to know people in the Hollywood end and I recognize my clients coming up that have the personality to carry themselves there, I'm going to push that direction. And yeah, we've done great with Paul. yeah we've done great with paul he's uh he's one of the best analysts on espn and he's got a reoccurring gig now on um the hbo max series hacks uh which you know which he's going back to film here very shortly for this season two and you know it wasn't difficult with paul because he's he's so charismatic on camera like he is he's really good and he went to school uh for you know for theater like he. There's actually pictures of him in Romeo and Juliet, tights and stuff like that. He's a full-blown actor, so he's very good. a niche that they're passionate about, well, that's the best way to get them endorsed by companies that they're actually organically passionate about. Paul was always passionate about being on camera and acting. So, you know, we just, you know, fate has brought us here,

I guess, you know, it's hard to, hard to say how I got, I still don't realize sometimes that I'm here 15 years later or 14 years later. Yeah, I'm telling you, the more and more I hear about you, the more and more I looked at your Instagram, the more interviews I saw you do, you were literally just, you remind me so much of, I know it sounds derogatory because you're a smart version of it, but just Forrest Gump, you're just in this flow of your life and life is just you're not um there's not some something you're chasing to fulfill some pathology of yours you're instead just flowing and you're you're just participating at the highest level you're just being present at the highest level and good things are happening to you. Would Rose ever take Pat's last name just to make it easy? Roseberry. Hey, Rose. Oh, and we have champion Roseberry instead of Rose.

Will you say her last name for me? Namajunas. Namajunas. I mean, it's a great last name. It's just that there's a lot of idiots like me in the world. You know what? I've long as I've known them, I've never even asked that question. So I can't actually answer that.

What kind of last name is that, Nama Yunus? Lithuanian. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. I'll ask it today. Durden, the fighter who beat the guy from China last week or two weeks ago. Did you see that? And he said – Oh, the wrestler? I forget his name.

I hadn't heard of him before. He fought the guy from China. And then Daniel Cormier was interviewing him, and he said, I send his ass packing back to China. interviewing him and and he said i send his ass packing back to china and then daniel went back to the broadcast booth and said when people start going there i'm going to i stopped the interview and i i have a little bit of a problem with that because if he would have said i'm packing that armenian back to armenia or that uh aussie back to australia i don't and if you go to this guy durden's instagram account you know the hordes are there the cancel culture is there trying to cancel him and i know it's sensitive around i know there's sensitivities around china right now

but did you do you see that as racist in any way like to say that no there's a lot of stuff that i don't see as racist though you know i i think people are oversensitive right now because of the cancel culture and it's starting to affect and make normal people more paranoid than they would be or should be yeah you know i think that i think that dc is a a pretty normal guy but i think think that, you know, him being on TV and having the, uh, persona that he has, he's, he, he might be a little more paranoid as to, you know, what's going on. I mean, let's, let's face it. Cancel culture is ridiculous. It's gotten out of hand in my opinion. Uh, and, um, it's gotten out of hand times, times 10, in my opinion. So I'm right. I can't,

I can't, I can't take it. Uh, but you But, you know, and that's kind of cool about the UFC, right? Dana's got his fingers up in the air like, fuck you, man. We got to keep this shit real. People are getting punched in the face. Yeah, no, you know, that's that's that's one thing that Dana has done. And he was the one I feel like he was very responsible for bringing sports back online. You know, not just the UFC, but all sports followed the UFC, you know, after COVID started. And that was, you know, because of Dana, I don't think things would have come back online as fast without him.

So, you know, credit credit to him on that. You know, I'm not here to to to kiss his butt, but he did a great job there. You know, Johnny Forman in the comment says haven't clicked on a live so fast thought you had rose on all right okay so we'll pick his brain about rose um we this this is brian butler ow did i say it right brian butler yes and uh um he is the ceo founder of sucker punch he's a manager to a lot of great athletes, including Rose, Nama, Eunice. So how do you, how does that happen? How does someone like Rose, can you tell me about that relationship, how it started with Pat and then how you got Rose and then how you guys drifted ways and how you guys came back together? and how you guys came back together.

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this wave of other clients came around and I met Duke Rufus. And Pat was training at Duke Rufus' gym at the time. And I started working with Pat when Pat first got into the UFC. And, you know, I started working with Pat when, you know, Pat first got into the UFC. And from there, you know, that relationship grew. Rose also trained at Duke's. And I started working with Rose as soon as she turned pro, getting her into Invicta and things like that. And she was very, you know, gosh, I can't even remember how old she was. But she was like 18, 19 years old. And fighting in Invicta.

And then the ultimate fighter for the girls came around. Season 20. And I had managed several of the girls on that cast as well. So it was Rose, Carla, and Felice going into that cast. And when that came out, Rose was killing it on that show. And everybody was in the dark because they kept everything in a bubble. But all we knew is that Dana really liked Rose because Rose was just in there finishing everybody. And then when they came out, it ended up being Rose and Carla fighting each other. Wow.

Uh, for the, for the belt, which was, you know, an awkward situation for me because I've managed both of them, but that's happened a few times now. Good problems to have. I mean, I, you know, people say that, but it's a very stressful situation. And anytime I have two of my guys or girls fight each other, I, I'm not a fan of it, you know, because, you know, it doesn't put me in a good spot. Boy, that's healthy. That's, that's, that shows you're still human, huh? Well, I can't, you know, like, I can't not give someone an opportunity because I represent the other person. You know, you're, in my opinion, you're in the UFC, you're in the NFL now, and the Redskins are going to play the Cowboys at this level, you know you're in my opinion you're in the ufc you're in the nfl now and the redskins

are going to play the cowboys at this level you know you know i don't do that i wouldn't put my clients against each other in the regional scene where i'm trying to build them up to get them to the ufc that won't happen but once you're in the ufc you've done what you needed to do and you might have to fight each other you know i mean it just is what it is so can we stop there real quick and explain that to people because you're it's like a pyramid and at the regional level you can find ways of of of furthering their careers without having them fight each other but now when you're in the ufc you're at the top of the pyramid and there's there's only one staircase and you guys both are going up it at the same time is that you're both aiming for the belt yeah yeah everybody's aiming for that belt at the ufc and i and who am i to say no you

can't do it because i manage this person as well so right you know but in the regional scene there's not enough money being paid to these guys these guys and girls they're just fighting to try to get to the big show to make a career so um i'm not gonna put two of my prospects against each other and set one of them back a year or two with a loss, you know, because if someone's losing that fight and whoever. And losses are bad, right? Losses are bad for so many reasons, right? People love the O. Yeah, they're bad. I mean, undefeated is great.

But if you have like a good win streak going that's great as well you know um but a loss on the regional scene can set you back from getting signed to a big show you know for a year maybe even two depends you after you lose you got to put together a win streak of you know two three fights and that can take a year to get um and the regional scene is so shaky with how you know fighters don't show up you know it's not as professional as as the ufc because the athletes aren't making as much money it's just sketchier you know you're still weeding out the real fighters from the facebook profile picture fighters you know right right um yeah so you know that's that's how that works once they get to the the big show bellator ufc one fc all of these major shows i

consider the big show pfl um once you get there you might have to fight each other because you're you're making real money now when you have two fighters that are that are that you're representing that are fighting each other how do you manage that expectation? Does it start to become like a worry of the favorites, like he's putting too much into one or another? Is that conversation had prior to the fight with both of them before it gets heated as it gets closer to the fight? I think that that topic bounces around in their heads sometimes, but I always try to address it up front. I'm like, guys, I was like, this is the matchup that's going to happen. It's like, if you want it, we can make it happen. If you don't want it, we don't have to make it happen,

but I can't tell you, I don't want it. You know, you have to tell me. And if you want it, you know you know, I don't like it. I don't like it whenever I see my people fight each other but you know like i said it's it's just a tough position so yeah sometimes it happens and the fighters get it in their head that i was favoring one over the other or this and this and you know sometimes i lose you know i've lost fighters because they've fought each other in the in in the big show and uh even though i was up front with it you know like i you know fighters deal with a lot of pressures a lot of mental pressures as well so

i i understand that you know what goes on in their head can be you know not necessarily rational at times because you know they're in a high pressure sport high pressure business so you're sure so how did you actually find rose the very first time like what what what did you see how did she come how did you that was the one pat pat said right away uh when he saw her training in the gym he's like man this girl is going to be a world champ and and and i was like okay you know and you look at her and you're like she's pretty small she's tiny girl and i don't she doesn't even look you know she actually looks like a girl you know like uh so but pat was very confident in her from right away and pat's pat's a bit of a a savant when it comes to that too he's a he's a very good coach and he's got a very good eye

um and yeah he called that he called that out he's called every single fight that she's won too and they're and they were they weren't dating at the time no and they're married now right they're engaged engaged okay okay so so then she comes out of the ultimate fighter um and she starts this path and you're her you're her manager and why does she for what you can tell us without being too, prying too hard, how do you guys grow apart? How does that happen? She fought Carla coming off the show. And there was possibly people in her ear saying that there was a conflict of interest and stuff like that.

So it just got weird. She was young and being thrown into the spotlight, the way she was, you know, just thought that there was a conflict. So, you know, she decided to take a different, different path for, for a bit, but that entire time that that was going on, I, I was, you know, Pat, Pat never broke off communication with me over it and pat was always telling me you know you know pat ended up taking over a lot of the man and he still does now past like the main organizer for everything um but uh he pat would call me up and ask me

questions about this about the contract about this or you know, and I would always be there. I never, I never turned my back on, on her. So a couple of years later, uh, you know, things got to the point where Rose again, she, she, she got her belt back and she was, you know, asking, you know, things, business was just getting crazy on her, on her again. And, um, just got to the point where I was like, Pat, man, I was like, why don't we just, I'm doing, I'm working behind the scenes with you so much. I was like, why don't we just get the elephant out of the room? And we met back up and we talked and it was a really cool moment for me, you know, because I typically don't even go back with fighters once they've left. But, you know, Rose and I got back together when she was the champ.

It wasn't like, usually when I have as a fighter will call me up after they'll fire me. And then they'll fire me when they're on a high. And then they'll call me when they've lost a bunch. Right, right. And then I'm going to come back or something like that. But with Rose, she was the champ. You know, she was at the top top. So it was good.

And plus, you know, like, how do you not love rose you know she's she's definitely special um did when you when your parents divorced did they stay friends and where i'm going with that is i'm wondering how you learn not to burn bridges my parents are divorced and they're extremely good friends and it's had a huge impact on my life, their friendship. My mom never did anything to keep my dad away from us. And funny story, when my dad remarried as well, and when my dad passed, my mom was on one side of the bed and my stepmother, Susanna, was on the other side. And Susanna and my mom, they were very, very good friends as well. And my mom just passed away last year. And when she passed away, Susanna was there.

So, yeah, my mom never burnt a bridge with my dad. And do you think that may be one of the reasons why you excel at what you do? That's a good question. I never thought of it like that. I just, yeah, maybe I never, never thought about that, man. Are you like emotionally more mature than most people you think you think you have a higher emotional IQ than most people? You know, my partners would probably say different because when we're behind the scenes,

and I'll send seven, like, don't say that. I was like, of course, I'm not going to say that, but I'm just saying it to you. But yeah, I don't, I don't know. I just feel like burning bridges. I don't like to do that. I know that I've, you know, in my long history of being in business, I, you never know when business can come back to you. And I've had people come back to me after seven, eight years of meeting them. And I've never did anything, you know, crazy with them, but they were like, man, I've always respected you and liked you. Let's do business now. And you never know when it comes around, but burning bridges. i think that's the other thing a lot of you know people in this you know management companies in this space do they don't they don't

care they just they'll they'll torture bridge in a second it's like you're stupid you know so i don't know i just don't like to burn bridges matt what's the definition of emotional iq i'll bring it up i do how cutthroat does it get between agents, though? Because I've heard some stories of NFL agents or Hollywood agents going through some extreme measures to steal somebody else's client or a big-name person. As far as to plant paid women in bars to seduce them so the agent could get a photo of them with another woman when they're married um headed to the room or in this hotel just to show them and say hey look here's what your agent missed here's what i could do for you you know this is how deep we go is there any is that the same similar scene in the in the mma world as well that's some dirty shit you that's dirty shit matt um it's

and then how do you go with someone like that? Then basically they're coercing you. Yeah, like you just showed your – you don't care about me. You just showed me you have no integrity. Right, but that's the way they find out. Well, I mean, yes, there are certain managers in this business that are that shady. you know, there are certain managers in this business that are that shady. I've never heard of going to that extreme, but I've heard of starting rumors to defame somebody or, you know, or just going after their clients. And it's a constant thing. I don't do that. I,

you know, me and my partner, Brian Hamper and our team, you know, we always tell everybody right out of the gate, we will not poach a fighter from another management company, even the ones, even from the managers that I can't stand. We just won't do it because I'm just not going to get into that cesspool with them. You know, we're going to hold ourselves to a higher phrase than that. And we don't do it, but they, they definitely are, are, are, are doing anything they can to take it away. And what I don't understand is you can look at these people and you can see they physically look like used car salespeople. So how are you even buying their shit? But I guess if you're dumb enough to buy their shit and you're dumb enough to go with them then you'd kind of deserve what's going to end up happening and then i'll expect a phone call in a couple of

years you know you need a manager to protect yourself from a manager i know i dwell yeah suppose emotional it gets crazy emotional, the capacity to be aware of control and express one's emotions and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically. Yeah, you probably got that. You probably got a lot to that. Yeah, especially with the people that you used to work with in multiple years later coming back. That really validifies that. Anthony says in the comments, do I have to pay to get a question answer for a show?

No, you have to get your own fucking podcast and invite Brian Butler on. That's how you get to ask your own fucking questions. No, I'm just joking, Anthony. What do you want? Anthony, don't screw this up. We're getting deeper. We're getting deeper. Will he ever manage from Fighters, since he is half Asian?

That's why I didn't ask the question, but we'll ask it anyway. I do. I, I manage a lease Anderson. She is a Adam weight that is signed to one FC and she's a up and coming little superstar. Bam.

Anthony, now give me your money. Is, is the goal always to get them to the UFC? Is that or no? No. It depends. Some fighters want to fight in one. They like the Asian culture and they want to fight in one. Some fighters want to go to Bellator. I have several fighters that think they'd rather be in bellator there's different cultures in different promotions so um because of that you know a lot of the fighters that do want to end up in the ufc but then you've got fighters that want to go to pfl because pfl is just throwing out million dollar checks to people you know so now that's gaining some traction and a lot of people are like damn i could go there you had a dude win that right the million bucks two dudes who did you have win it

Ray Cooper and Raush yeah that's awesome oh are you just I mean I know you don't get the money but are you just beside yourself like one of my friends just is about to win the division two Heisman his name's Tyson Bajent and it's not my son

but when I think about it I get goosebumps I'm just like so happy for my friend I'm like beside myself when when your fighters win that are you just like oh yeah Raush uh one of the guys that wanted the lightweight Raush Manfaio I was so happy for him and he uh he was ready to quit he was ready to quit the sport and I was trying to I've been managing him for almost I don't know almost two years and i couldn't get him a fight because nobody would fight him because he looks like a specimen and he had a reputation as being you know a killer um and uh uh when he won it when i when i i remember he called me he was telling me he's ready to give up and go back

to brazil and this and this and i said man just give it a little longer a little longer and um it was actually the the day of my mom's funeral uh i got the phone call and i got him accepted into pfl and he just broke down crying uh because it was finally could he could fight and actually make some money and i had just loaned him i don't know like a thousand dollars so he could pay rent. Oh my goodness. He had no money to pay rent. So I loaned him rent money just to get him through. Then he got signed to the PFL as a,

as an alternate. He wasn't even signed originally. He was like a substitute and went in and beat Anthony Pettis and just started beating everybody and then won the million bucks. And now he, so he went from having Anthony Pettis and just started beating everybody and then won the million bucks. And now he, so he went from having Anthony Pettis. Yep. Holy cow.

That is that the 2020, uh, 2020. He just won it a couple of months ago. Oh, I'm going to go back and watch the whole thing. Holy cow. That is awesome. He didn't beat Anthony for the million. He beat Anthony in the season to get him. Yeah.

To the tournament. I to get him. Yeah. To the tournament. I hear you crazy. Yeah. So he, he went from having negative funds to having a million dollars. He's bought himself a car. He's got a nice apartment now. And,

you know, now I'm trying to, yep. Now there it is with his new car, trying to help him, you know, he's, he's just great.

He, he, he, he could not, the funny thing was he, he couldn't wait to pay me my, uh, which was – the management fee out of his purse was more money than he's ever had in his life when you win a million dollars. You know what I mean? So it was just really cool, and he's super grateful, and he's just a super nice guy.

So I was so happy for him him and his family are you personally good with money what do you mean like like brian butler like are you smart with money like your own personal finances and like paying your bills and like like yeah i like to think i am look at that bar he's sitting in, baby. And the reason why I ask is, do you give advice to those guys? Yes. Okay. I do. You do.

I don't claim to be an expert. I claim to have made my own mistakes, and now I can tell them how to avoid it. And I put my money into real estate. Yeah, me too. That's where I, you know, I go, I've got a little bit in the stock market, but for me, I, I want to have control and, you know, the real estate is kind of where I put stuff. You know, I, I put money in real estate because, um,

it's kind of like saving it. Like, like I just put all my money in real estate. Cause that way I can't spend it. You know what I mean? Like, I know I'm not good with money, so I just put all my money in real estate because that way I can't spend it. You know what I mean? I know I'm not good with money, so I just put everything in real estate. So the second I get a big chunk of money, I just pay down mortgages. I just buy another house. I just keep pushing forward in real estate. And boy, since shit's hit the fan, it's been so fucking great. It's the ultimate parachute to have a property that's paid off and people paying rent. That's another thing. A lot of people will tell you, hey, it's not smart. The interest rates are so low.

Don't pay off your property. Just get more property. I didn't do that. I just paid off property after property after property. And holy shit, if I wouldn't have done that, I'd have three little kids. I'd be screwed. Yeah, yeah. That makes me happy.

So you're one year older than me. You're into real estate. And we both have Forrest Gump tendencies. I'm really liking you. named Greg Glassman and he was singularly focused and he basically defined fitness. Fitness didn't have a definition before Greg came along and he defined it in the sense that he gave it a scientific definition, a work capacity across broad time and modal domains. He brought physics to it and he quantified what working out so that it could be measurable and repeatable, like real science. And his dad was the head scientist at Hughes aircraft. So his dad, you know, was a, a, and a military guy and, you know, a rocket scientist. And so Greg was brilliant and he

owned this. He basically grew this thing to 15,000 gyms in 162 countries. It was growing faster than Starbucks and subway combined. He made the barrier to entry super duper low. You basically just had to take this two-day course and people who would take the course would be like, and I believe it too because it changed my life. Holy shit, this two-day course is better than the four-year degree I got from Tennessee Tech in physiology. It was so fucking applicable and it changed people's lives. He would always say, I didn't invent anything, anything that I'm telling you a 12 year old could learn on the internet but i've just put it all together he was singularly focused on one thing he owned the entire company it was the health and

wellness and longevity for all of mankind he didn't take any money from coca-cola he when he did take money from reebok when they put out a shoe that said um this shoe makes your butt firmer he went on twitter and was like fuck you guys are idiots even though they gave him 350 million dollars you know what i mean he didn't give a fuck then he's then he got canceled and he's and and he chose to um sell his company and his company was bought by venture capitalists and greg vanished off into the sunset and he's richer than god now he's still a good good friend of mine i think he'll be coming on the show and i'm actually he's sending his jet out to come get me next week i'm gonna go spend a week with him in scottsdale yeah i'm bragging and so um uh now the company's owned by venture

capitalists and they don't greg had a a moral obligation to do you know where i'm going with this brian not yet great great greg greg had a moral greg had a moral obligation to these 15,000 gyms to stay the fucking course 50,000 jobs it's a small business miracle what crossfit is and he and now these venture capitalists own it and they have a they have a i don't know if it's a small business miracle what crossfit is and he and now these venture capitalists own it and they have a they have a i don't know if it's a moral obligation but they have an obligation to make money and they've already taken monster energy drink on as a sponsor and and it's just it's a different beast yeah so when i originally was looking into you, I saw that you deal in the same property that CrossFit did, human beings and their lives. There is no – no one is selling two hours of their life for $10 million.

There's no price you can put on it. Our lives are invaluable. you can put on it our lives are invaluable and um uh you so you're managing these people's lives and a company comes along and says hey we want to buy you and this company is public it was um alliance mma right yeah yeah and you get into bed with them and you sell to them and so then i'm seeing that and i'm like oh shit wow as i'm researching you i'm like this is this is kind of crazy how is he going to be true to his people but also be true to the almighty dollar and then as i dig more i see that you pulled out of the deal and i'm like holy shit because i don't think people realize until they're in the position you're in how venture capital and going public and all that shit.

I mean, it's it's savage. I mean, I mean, you look at Pfizer. I mean, I don't mean to open a big rabbit hole, but like it's money at all costs, money before everything. but like it's money at all costs, money before everything. Can you, sorry for the long winded description, but it's fascinating to me because right now CrossFit, when Greg sold it, he left. So he can't pull the deal back. Right. But now there's these 15,000 gyms and small business owners. And I don't think that they understand what they've gotten themselves into. They went from a sole proprietor who only cared about health and fitness to this company that now wants money. Can you share anything about your experience? I'm really curious how you pulled out and why you pulled out what you, if you can, what you saw that was like, Hey, I don't want my fighters involved in this. Well, it, you know, it was the business model itself. You know, when they

came to us and approached us, there was a certain model that was going to happen and we were the only management company involved other than that it was a bunch of regional show promotions that they were trying to link together and create this ncaa type of web uh for athletes to come in and come up and go to the ufc um so because of that i i knew in my head i was like there's no way you're going to get all these promoters to get along and this and this. But they were certain and they had all this money to do it. And I said, well, if it works, it could be great. I just don't think it's going to work.

Because of that, we protected ourselves on our own island inside the company. So I made sure that our bank account stayed separate and, you know, that we had our autonomy to do what we wanted because I knew that we were going to be, and we were also the money, the biggest money generator involved with the company. So I had to protect ourselves. We got in and things were good for a little bit. And then they started falling apart because there was too many cooks in the kitchen. And then, you know, when it started going south, you know, people started pulling out and wanting to get out. You know, we were like, all right, well, we're out, you know, and there's nothing you can do about it. You know, you don't have my Rolodex.

You don't have my network and this and that. They were like, well, don't go because we're going to sell the company. You know, we're selling the company to a company in the UK. And I don't know what they were what they were doing and i was like well if you want anyone they needed us on the books to do it because we were the ones showing profit uh i said okay we'll stay on i was like but part of the deal is you know when you do sell number one we get we basically get money again for staying on and i get everything back rights to my name. Cause they, they, they were going to keep the name of sucker punch and everything, which I didn't really care,

but you know, I threw it in there and, uh, they sold, they sold the company to this company in the UK and, um, we got paid again and I got everything back, you know, and I never gave up any control to, uh, to the company, uh, company that jeopardized any of our athletes the entire time. I apologize if I missed it. But was there – why did you – so you got out not because you were being compromised – you didn't feel the athletes were being compromised. You're just saying that the company wasn't organized enough to fulfill their vision. We never let the athletes get compromised from the beginning. That's why I put ourselves on an island to where we had control.

And if somebody was going to – the CEO of Alliance would try to tell me something, like you're going to do – I'm like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do, really? Okay. I had a personal agenda in asking you that question. I wanted you to tell me something like, yeah, they wanted all of our clients to carry Coca-Cola in their backpack everywhere they went. And I was like, I thought there was going to be some. Okay. I knew we always had the steering wheel during that whole journey. And there were some good parts to it. I met some good people.

But like I said, there's no way I was going to compromise and let our clients get taken advantage of during any of that. And got in and out. Do you like interacting with people? I do. You do? I do. How about new people? Do you have any social, you don't have any social anxiety? I have social anxiety speaking publicly, doing podcasts. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Me too. That's why I ask. I'm wondering if like, if like you just pursue

stuff that you're uncomfortable with. No, I don't do too many of these, but I don't get asked too often either. But I just do – I don't know. I just, like you said, go with the flow. Yeah, I actually can't believe you agreed. Did any part of the reason you agreed to do the podcast? I just realized I had one of your fighters on. Dalton? Yes. Yeah.

That's a good dude. He's a good dude, yeah. Yeah, that was a really fun podcast. I really enjoyed him. Just booked him to fight. Can you tell us who? No. Can you tell us the date?

I know it's on my phone, and actually my low battery warning just came up, so I might have to plug in. Oh, shoot. What a great guy. And so how do you find someone like Dalton? Dalton was referred to us from one of my other longtime fighters, Sabah Hamasi. I guess he saw me at a Bellator event with Sabah and saw how I longtime fighters, Sabah Hamasi. I went to, you know, I guess he saw me at a Bellator event with Sabah and saw how I was interacting with Sabah. And, you know, when he was under another management company at the time, and then when he got free of that contract with me, he actually had mentioned to us that he wanted to talk to us. And I told him, I was like, I can't really talk to you until you're out of your contract. And then when he got out of his contract,

he said he just really loved the way that I interacted with my clients, Sabah and the relationship we had. And it seemed like I cared and all this, which I do. And, um, he wanted that. And we started talking and, uh, he, he, he came over, uh, when, when he was able to. So that no poaching thing is serious. Yeah. I'm just don't do it. With a man of integrity. Is there boundaries that you set when it comes to serving your fighters?

And what I mean by that is if one of them calls at midnight and says, I need X, Y, Z, are you picking up the phone and answering that call? Or are you saying, hey, I'm on phone, I'm on line to five? If I hear the phone ring,

I'm picking it up. I worked at this home for disabled adults for five years. I lived in the driveway in a car there. I made a movie about it. It's called Our House. It won 30 film festival awards. Anyway, enough bragging about myself. And there was a lady who worked there with me, right?

The entire time i worked there her name was hayley and she had a boyfriend and and um when i started there i was low man on the totem pole and i and i was just a barefoot hippie homeless guy and i rose to like having 20 people work for me and i was living in the driveway in a motorhome making like 22 bucks an hour just balling and there was a lady there she climbed the ranks with me and she was my assistant and the whole time she worked there i was like hitting on her and flirting on her subtly, you know, but I really liked her. I mean, shit, I was 25 years, 23, 24 years old and she was could, hey, fuck off. I have a boyfriend. Like it was very like – you have no fucking chance if I have a boyfriend. Now she's my wife.

But like the integrity, right? Like I'm like, well, you passed the test. Like if she would have fucked me, I would have been like probably going to ruin the whole thing. Right. But like now I know this girl girl like and she told me and then when she broke up with her boyfriend she basically said to me like hey i don't have that boyfriend anymore if you're interested in courting me you may continue and so i was like fuck yeah i'm interested in courting you you know what i mean like let's go get a cup of coffee now

well good for you congratulations yeah thank you it just made thank you thank you it just reminds me of you of of you know of of what you said about dalton you tell dalton hey sorry i i'm you're dating someone and i don't date people who date someone and and i don't i'm not uninterested and i'm not only do i not date those people i'm not interested in being in the collapse of the relationship i'm not interested in partaking in that narrative. And then he comes back and you're like, okay, that's really, I mean, I, that's hardcore. Yeah. I mean, you know, he's, he's good friends with Sabah and he sees Sabah, you know, been with me for forever. So I guess it's, that's,

that's most of our business comes that, that way, either through a coach from a gym that we, we know, you know, they refer us to clients or from other fighters of ours are you what do you do what are you doing these days to stay in shape are you do you train daily yeah i do uh muay thai anything else do you do you have in a uh do you ride a like a salt bike or an echo bike or running or no i'm not a big runner i'll do jump rope you know some light weights and and kickboxing and the jump rope and the light weights are to warm up for the kickboxing the light weights are just because i'm 50 years old now and i need to do something

to stay firm you know the kickboxing doesn't you know keep you firm it you know it's it's good cardio and good exercise, but I need some sort of light weights. I'm not a big weightlifter either. And your son, you're holding mitts for your son, I see in a video on your Instagram. Yeah, yeah. Both of my kids, I train both of them. How cool is that? And you train them? Are you freaking out right now because your phone's about to die?

It's getting close. If it dies, don't worry. The show's over. The show's over. It's my show. I can just end. And do you get along with your kids when you're training them? How does that go?

Oh, yeah. No, I get along great with them. I look forward to training with them. And it's awesome to see how good they're getting. My younger son, my older son's in college, so I don't train with him as much. But my younger son, he can throw. He um he can hit harder than me now i think do you have any inner conflict in regards to what what happens in the fight game that it's two human beings hurting each other

do you do you have do have do you reflect on that uh no i mean i because you know i've done some amateur fights and it's just fun and you know i don't i i feel like everybody should at least do a little bit of something just for your own confidence and for your own ability to protect your family or whatever. And also to get over that fear, you know, of, holy shit, I'm getting ready to do this. But, you know, obviously I don't ever want to see anybody get hurt seriously. And that's a very rare thing, but that's the same thing in football or any sport, right? So there's always inherent risks, but, you yeah i've never i don't think i've ever been regretful of anybody participating i don't remember who we had a fighter on i don't know i'm trying to think maybe it was volkanovski but someone said that there's no better way to

look at yourself there's like hey because i fight because i get into the ring they basically said there's no i know myself in a way that like no one else can know themselves unless they get into the fight into the ring and fight and in that way i really i really respect the journey but from from the outside sometimes i feel bad you know i just like like like i have a um unhealthy appetite for but i mean i don't enjoy i don't enjoy like other kinds of violence i'm not like into car accidents and shit but for some reason i get excited so for some reason i get excited on saturdays and like i and like i watched the the tiafimo fight did you watch that no oh i didn't why didn't you watch that uh this weekend i had like 27 family members in my

house i didn't have time for much so um yeah no uh i think that you know i don't get anxiety because you know both these athletes have trained they've trained their asses off for this and it's what they love to do. I understand why they love to do it because there is a certain level of satisfaction you get out of training and being able to implement what you've trained for. And it's, you know, it's, it's satisfying. It's interesting to say that too. Matt and I are around a lot of military guys,

a lot of military guys, and a lot of seals actually. And the, every single, um, seal that I've known who's come home, they feel like that they need to get back in there and fight. And I go, why aren't you glad to be home? And they go, dude, I trained 24 hours a day, 365 days a year to do one fucking job. And that job does is not going to happen with me at home and so it's i guess it's kind of like that if you're a fighter like you train to fight and you like an axe makes the split wood right yeah but the soldiers you know i have a completely different level of respect for that's actually yeah i get it there's a life threat when you're doing combat sports but when those guys are going out there there is a real life threat so for them to want to do that that's that's something that you have to respect and i'm never going to even come close to trying to compare what they do to sport right i i guess i just

meant in the sense that when someone trains for something like it like military guys and even with their life on the line you would think they'd be happy to come home. They still want to get back in there and fight. It's that, it's that. Yeah. Dedication to their craft. Yeah. The firefighters I work with are all itching to go on that fire, but none of them want to see anybody harmed or a house burnt down. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Like they train the whole time. So when they get that commercial fire or house fire, they're fire, they're like ready to go. They're out the door. So when they get that commercial fire or house fire, they're like ready to go. They're out the door. But you speak to any of them afterwards once the job is done and it's still somebody else's property, somebody else's house. So nobody wants to see that. But they want to do the job they're training for.

That's for sure. Yeah, they want to get on the roof of that burning Costco and cut a hole in it and risk their lives. Those fucking nuts. Firefighters are nuts. That's what they do. Brian, final question before your phone what is this what is what do you see as a as a uniform character trait in the most successful people you you work with humbleness fuck i'm, I'm never going to make it. Can you define humbleness for me? You know, I think everything comes from that. You know, if you're humble,

you're, you're approachable. Fans can relate to you. And they're going to love you. They're going to adore you. You know, that's why Paul Felder is loved so much. That's why Rose is loved so much. That's why Jens Pulver is loved so much. Douglas Lima, you know, all of these fighters project themselves with humility, not saying that they aren't confident. And that doesn't mean that they feel like they're lesser than anybody, but their humbleness makes them approachable, which makes them more marketable to a wider audience, in my opinion,

because they're looked up to and when some when people look up to you and then they find out that you're a genuine real person they're like oh they love you even more uh when you get these people that go out there and they put on these shows and they put sunglasses on in buildings at night time and they act like they're superstars you're not approachable at that point in my opinion and you lose touch with reality and your head's getting the head gets in the clouds. And, you know, that's when you start believing your own hype. So I think the key to a long career is humility and trusting your circle of people. And so, and I guess also with humility, that means that you believe you can still get better. Yeah, of course. You could always learning and you can get better.

You're always learning, and you can get better. I wonder if humility is embracing insecurity, accepting insecurity, loving your insecurities as opposed to – Yeah. As opposed to – Could be. Paul Felder seems like an amazing guy. In that note, there's people like Colby Covington who I really, really, really, really like. But there's people like Colby Covington who I really, really, really, really like. Yes, but Colby puts on an act, which everybody – that's a different approach.

It's almost like a WWE type of act. He's not really like that in person. If you know Colby in person, he's actually a pretty nice guy. He's not always rolling around with models and stuff like that behind him. You know, that's, that's, that's what he does to make noise for himself and to make people want it. Like he likes to be, you know, hated. Right. Because he knows people are watching them. His eyes are set on, you know, getting views and making sure that when he fights, the people are paying,

you know? So I can't hate on him for that. How he carries himself when he's around fans is totally different. He's gone off and done things to meet with soldiers and our troops and doesn't post about it, doesn't talk to any – he does a lot of things privately that people don't know about. Yeah, and maybe that's why I like him also because when I do hear those things or I do see them going the extra mile, yeah, I do see a – it's interesting. And I guess what I like about people is do all these great people have insane work ethics too? Like they just don't – nothing gets in the way.

Like they're not going to the bar. I mean sometimes people go to bar. I mean sometimes you've got to – it's such a stressful job and and stressful situation that you got to let your hair down every now and then. But it's not something where you're doing it every night, you know. But yeah, they're definitely focused on staying, you know, in their in their job. I saw in that picture, you also had AJ Fletcher as one of your clients. Yeah, we had him on the show. Another great dude. That dude was, what a great interviewer. Do you, sorry, I said that was the last question, but this is the last question. Are there, do they have to be a cultural fit for you? Is there a culture in your company? I think that's, you know, that's a question that I say to them all the time. You know, we can have a contract, but if we don't get along, I'm not going to be motivated to work for you and you're not going to be motivated to trust me. So contract or not, if the personalities don't get along, I don't care how much money you make.

I get a lot of fulfillment and enjoyment out of the relationships that we build and the successes that come from that. I don't get a lot of enjoyment out of sucking up to anybody and being a yes man. That's for sure. And when you say get along, who do they have to get along with? Both of us. My partner, Brian Hamper, Chris Kreese, Chad. Lastly, our partners in Russia. They have to be good people, polite. I need to be able to tell you the truth right is it and does that seem to be new for a lot of people

telling the truth sometimes you know aj aj came to us through his coach tim tim uh was on the ultimate fighter with one of my very first clients amir sadala way back in the day i think season seven and tim has been tracking our company's growth the entire time. And Tim called us and was like, man, he's like, you know, out of all the managers out there, I'd really like you to take care of AJ because Tim really, you know, AJ is his guy. So that those are the type of referrals, you know, and I know Tim knows our personality. So he felt it would be a good fit. AJ is actually a really good, humble kid, and he's good. He's going to go places.

Yeah, he's a savage. I wish I would have learned about honesty at a younger age. I wanted to be nice, and being nice came at the price of being honest and it's do you know what i mean by that yeah yeah my parents are really nice and so they weren't always honest honest yeah yeah because they didn't like you don't want to hurt someone's feelings but really honesty is where all the freedom is and all the integrity and all the good people the honesty is uh and all the integrity and all the good people. The honesty is special.

Yeah. Well, I think you can be both. Yeah. You just have to make sure when you're telling the truth, you're doing it and you're not a dick about it. I don't like to give bad news. I said this to my guy I was interviewing yesterday. I was like, but I wish I could give good news all the time. But sometimes I'm going to have to give you bad news.

It's just the nature of the business. And I need you to trust me through that, you know? And, you know, that's, that's kind of the foundation to building the relationship. Awesome. Brian, do you have a, do you have the new iPhone? Do you have iPhone 13 or what is it? I have the 12.

Is that the new one? No, there's one more that came out. One of our guys, Chris, one of our managers, Chris Creech, has the new one. He's always giving me shit about it. I'm just saying because then you get more battery time. Dude, thanks for coming on, Brian. No problem. Thanks for having me.

I can't wait for our paths to cross again. This is really cool. All right. Yeah, thank you, guys. Susan, I'm thankful to you too. Thanks, Yvonne. Brian?