The Sevan Podcast - #609 - Dr. Scott Sherr

Episode Date: September 27, 2022

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Whether it's the all-terrain capability, ample cargo capacity, or innovative camera technology, the Defender 110 lets you go further and do more. And with seating for up to seven, everyone can enjoy the journey. Learn more at LandRover.ca. Bam, we're live with no guest. Where's our guest? Scott Scherr. I wonder if i'm saying his name right scott s-h-e-r-r scott sure uh all alone i don't see caleb Matt Souza is in where's Matt Souza he's either in Rome or in Madrid Rome or Madrid

if you live in either Rome or Madrid you should contact Matt invite him over for a bottle of wine or something I think he'll be gone for two weeks I bet you he can't stay away from the podcast, though. Bruce, good morning.

Adam, good morning. Elise. Car. Good morning. Eric Weiss. Brandon Waddell. Not Waddle. I'm learning.

Alan Kestenbaum. Where's Craig White? Craig! Craig! Dude, I was joking on the Ellie Turner. I was half joking. Three quarters joking. On the Real Savant podcast.

I guess yesterday in the Ellie Turner podcast, I made a joke. Oh, I'll tell you about that in a second. Or maybe later. Scott! How's it going? Dude, great now it going? Dude. Great. Now that you're here. Nice to see you.

Yeah. Stoked to see you too, brother. Dr. Scott. Sure. Am I pronouncing your last name? Right?

Yeah, that's good. I do. I do all that too. I got, I got this. I feel like the headphone thing here, you know,

like the headphone here, do the fingers through the hair, try to pull it all back and then quickly stick it out try that real quick yeah got the side thing going here for whatever reason could i be really nosy what's up um where are you i'm based in colorado oh you are okay for some reason i thought why do i think you're in the bay area because i used to be research i used to be for many years yeah oh and that's right you're at 16 oxygen now and no longer at 21 no longer at 21 exactly you got it um you have four kids i do are we recording already or we are we're live the world the world the world's chiming in but but we're so chill. We're so chill.

Awesome. We've all been canceled already. We can do anything we want. We can fix our hair, pick our nose. We can, we can talk to flat earthers, whatever. We're not scared. Most excellent. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm based in Colorado. I lived in the Bay area for over nine years and I moved about a year ago to the great state of Colorado. You know what I am going to do? What's that? I am going to go over here and I'm going to type in Scott. Sure. And I'm going to switch your name if you don't mind, so that if people want to follow you on Instagram, they have your handle. So I just switched your name right there. Perfect. That's okay. Cool. Yeah. So, so I, so the vast majority, I believe this, the vast majority of the people who listen to this podcast believe in extreme personal accountability and personal responsibility. And they've come to that conclusion, I think more recently. And,

and, and they came to that conclusion through doing CrossFit through, um, through a lot of, you know, personal discomfort and realizing that, uh, and then, and then through, I think the, um, we had, we had a great leader named Greg Glassman and he told us that CrossFit was the cure to the world's most vexing problem. And that actually, even though he was the fitness guy at our foundation of CrossFit was nutrition and that that would actually get you to the 95 yard line. And it broke his heart to say that, but that fitness wasn't even necessary through the pandemic and through realizing our relationship, I think as a cohort in the CrossFit community with doctors has really changed. We see doctors more as something that we need if we get shot by a gun or if we fall out of a, or if we have,

you know, serious burns, but, um, or if, you know, a car tire goes flying through the windshield of your car, you know, then you need a doctor. But for a lot of this other stuff, you need to make lifestyle choices. And I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't realize that chiropractory was that kind of doctor, that they also believed at their foundation that the body could heal itself if given the opportunity. Yeah, that's how I grew up in the world of chiropractic. I mean, they really were the first OG, internal, integrative medicine doctors within the functional medicine framework to some degree. They thought that if they could align the body in a certain way, and they still do, that the body would be able to naturally heal itself as a result of going through the process of realigning itself.

And most chiropractors were not just focused on the back and the spine, but also focused on nutrition, focused on optimizing your life, your exercise. And you make a good point earlier about exercise. I mean, you can't exercise yourself out of a shitty diet. It just doesn't work. I mean, certainly you can, you can, you can, you can try, but you're not going to get to the same place because it really is significantly impacted by what we put in our mouth every day as our nutrition. So, I mean, exercise is extremely important. That is for sure. However, your diet, your lifestyle, everything from what goes into your mouth to the stress that you're under every day are as important as well. I mean, you're simply not going to get there just with going to CrossFit or going to any other exercise regimen. However, exercise is what we call one of those cornerstone habits, which means that once you start exercising, you typically want to do other things that are healthy for you as well.

So you start exercising and then, you know, you decide you're not going to drink alcohol every night because you want to get up in the morning and go to CrossFit or go work out or go take your spin class or get on your Peloton, whatever it might be. So, and then as a result of that, your relationships get better because exercise also helps with various chemicals in your brain that make you feel better. Like endorphins is the most commonly known, but also your endocannabinoid system, the system that actually regulates how your body responds to stress, how your body responds to feelings of, of happiness and of sadness and things like that, because there's these chemicals in your brain called endocannabinoids. These are natural cannabinoids in our brain that our brain makes all the time. One of them is called anandamide, which is the most common one, which is actually a Sanskrit word for bliss. So this is something that CBD also regulates as well by increasing the amount of anandamide in your brain. So anyway, so the short story is that exercise could be a fantastic foundational or cornerstone habit that can allow you multiple changes in your daily life and your life going forward.

But it's not the exercise itself per se, but it's the result of the exercise and the result of the other lifestyle changes that you make that truly make the difference. It's the gateway drug to happiness. Yeah. The lifestyle changes. Just the gateway drug to lifestyle changes. I quit smoking. I started when I was doing CrossFit. I was like, man, the smoking's not working. I'm going to have to choose. Right. Yeah. Smoking is a good one too. That's a very common one that people will give up if they start exercising a lot. I mean, we know that the studies on depression, for example, exercises just as good as antidepressants. It's not inferior, which means it's the same. If you can exercise every day, it's as good as being on a medication for depression most of the time. I mean, there

are certainly some times when somebody's severely depressed and things are required immediately, but in general, like for the majority of people, it's the same. So yes, cornerstone habit, gateway drug, all those things. All of that being said, you became a physician, like a real physician, like, hello, doctor, you wear the stethoscope, you did all the school, you did the residency, like, hello, doctor, you wear the stethoscope, you did all the school, you did the residency, took all the heart tests, you had big pharma try to brainwash you. And yet you were raised by a chiropractor, hardcore, still at your dad, Alan, he's still active, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. The Northport Wellness Center in Northport, New York on Long Island. Yeah. He's still doing it.

So why did you go that way? Well, I think there was a number of different things going on at the time. I think going back and looking at it and remembering, I knew that I liked being involved in healing and being involved in patient care. I grew up in his office. I did everything from playing the front desk when I was two years old to collecting money when I was 15. And so I really loved that ecosystem. But I also realized that there was a lot that chiropractors couldn't do in the sense that they were limited from their scope and their licensure. And I really wanted the potential to do anything that I could in the larger scheme of being a practitioner. So kind of taking the best of all worlds. And I had very high-minded ideas as any 18-year-old would as far as being

able to bridge the chasm between alternative and conventional healthcare. And during my training, I definitely had my challenges in the sense of being involved in the system as significantly as I was. But I did see, as you mentioned briefly earlier, that acute care medicine is actually quite fantastic in what it can do in helping people with serious medical conditions. And what it's really bad at though is preventative care. We have some ways of doing some preventative things that are okay, but in general,

the system is just kind of keeping you basically the same as you are, maybe slightly different here and there, but not doing a huge amount to shift your trajectory is what it comes down to. So the trajectory shifting really does happen outside of the conventional system. And that really can take a lot of different, it can go a lot of different ways. It can take a lot of different flavors, depending on the type of system that you feel most aligned to. But there's obviously the big bucket of integrative care. There's functional medicine. There's a practice that we've developed with one of my companies called Health Optimization Medicine

in Practice, which is a nonprofit training doctors and practitioners on how to optimize health rather than treat disease. I mean, so there's a lot more options for people now to really look at the foundational stuff. And instead of just looking at the disease focused care, because if you're looking at foundational biomarkers of cellular health, of gut health, of immune health, of hormone health, and that really is the foundation of our health over the longterm. And so in my opinion, that's where people really should be starting if they can. Obviously, if you have an acute issue, you need to take care of it. But focusing on your foundational biology is really important.

And from there, you know, then building from there and going from there and including other types of modalities as you need to. So for me, it really became medical school became this idea and this practice for me where I learned to understand the physiology, the pathophysiology, and then also to kind of discover what might be the best way for me to integrate this. And that became really solidified in me when I did some rotations and understood more about hyperbaric oxygen therapy, which is where I specialized after finishing medical school and finishing my residency in internal medicine, is a way to really harness the power of very,

very important molecule oxygen in lots of healing modalities, recovery modalities, optimization types of ways, and how you can integrate it with using conventional and integrative care in ways for people to truly optimize and how they did over the long term. So hyperbaric therapy became my specialty. And that's what I still do as a primary thing now in consulting with people all over the world, clinics, patients, and helping optimize protocols and looking at not only the hyperbaric protocols itself, but what you can do before, during, and after to truly leverage the technology and see it really make the changes in people that we truly see if you can do a more holistic approach. And definitely we will get to the hyperbaric

chamber. That is like, that's the going to be the dessert, I think, of this conversation. That's what you're doing is I can only imagine what it's like being you because you're on – well, I enjoy it because of this podcast, but you're on this frontier. Every day must be so exciting for you because you get to see kind of like magic every day. You get to see stuff. You probably see stuff at least once a week. I'm guessing that – man, I can't even share this. They're going to think I'm fucking crazy or this is going to gonna go this is like i can't even believe what i just saw right and you and well we'll get to that the hyperbaric chamber and and how fantastic it is was any part of the fact that you went to a medical

school like an fu to your dad like fuck that i'm not like you do chiropractic watch this watch me get into uh get a job at pfizer no there was never any of that no rebel in you no i mean i had a little bit when i was in high school like everybody else but it wasn't in in school i was always a No, there was in any direction really that I wanted to after that. So, so no, actually there was no FU at all at this. It's, it's, it's amazing how little, when you start digging, I'll use circumcision as the example. If you, if you have a son who's uncircumcised and you live in the United States, finding information about it that's accurate and right is like – it's crazy. It's like – I mean you could ask 100 doctors and they don't know shit. You could ask 1,000 doctors and they don't know shit.

Why don't you pull the skin back? Should it be cleaned? Is it dangerous? I mean they just don't know shit. You're better off just finding a dude who's intact. It's – and yet you were brought up on a side where you don't necessarily ask physicians. You ask people who are into this integrative medicine. Well, I think for me, it's really important to look at your clinical practice, right? Seeing people come in every day. And certainly I saw these kinds of miraculous types of things when I was younger in the chiropractic framework. But I also saw where there was limitations in the sense that sometimes people really just needed to go to the hospital and really get treated and get that work done. And then, then they can take the time and

be more sustainable in their health over the longterm. So, I mean, I certainly think that over the last 20 years or so, um, since I almost, since I started my medical school training in 2003, at this point, um, that's going to be almost 20 years now. That's crazy. Um, you know, that there's been a lot more changes in how, how much doctors know and what the information is out there. I mean, when I trained, the specialty of functional medicine was just getting started. And it was very, very new. And we thought that, for example, the gut was something that was okay to bash with antibiotics and didn't have any problems except for causing an infection called C. diff. And now we know that the gut microbiota and the gut ecosystem is so important to your

overall health for so many different reasons. And this is even seeping into medical school. And that's, that's a great thing. But the challenge with, with conventional practice is that it takes about 20 years or so for things to hit the conventional world that started off as being in a fringe in quotes, right? So one of the things that I work on a lot is something called metabolomics, which is the assessment of cellular biology and real-time cellular processes. And this is just starting to hit the conventional world now. There's a paper that was just written last year calling metabolomics the stethoscope, excuse me, of the 21st century. This is the idea of looking at your cellular biology in real time,

and then being able to make an analysis that helps optimize your cellular health, et cetera, as you are looking at that foundation of somebody's health, not only from a disease state, but from a health-focused state too. And now, of course, the conventional docs are more interested in disease than they are in health, because that's what we learn. And that's what's, you know, quote unquote, more interesting and more acutely treated as opposed to focusing on somebody's health, which takes time and doesn't have the same initial benefit doesn't have the same immediate gratification for it, as it would be to treat a disease and, you know, cut something out or, or use medication to do something, et cetera. So we doctors just like anybody else, they love immediate gratification. And so not having that immediate gratification is really hard for doctors as well. So I think

things are changing. And I think there's more information out there. I think there's more integrative specialists out there in various types of ecosystems, whether it be chiropractors or naturopaths, or even, even MDs and DOs now. So I think there's more out there. various types of ecosystems, whether it be chiropractors or naturopaths or even MDs and DOs now. So I think there's more out there. I think that has changed a lot, but certainly to get into this as a patient is a challenge because you've got to find somebody that's interested in you and sustaining your health over the long-term potentially you have to really, it's not easy to find a doctor that truly will align with you, but it is easier now than it ever has been. So at least that, that is a positive. Um, I was speaking to this doctor, uh, I don't know, it was about a year ago and they were telling me that, uh, they had a patient who

had, uh, you know, diagnosed with type two diabetes and they were talking to them about diet and what they recommended that their first course of action should be and the administrator found out about that and immediately gave them some disciplinary action told them to call the patient back and tell them no that you didn't explain to them the protocol that the hospital had in place which was you know metformin etc go down that path sure and at that point i realized that yeah they're a lot of doctors are put in the situations where they're docents of death, right? They're going to help you live with your sickness instead of help you, I guess, cure it. And the system is set up to make it very difficult to help with the reversal of various types of illness and conditions, because like for the most part, you're getting insurance coverage for your primary care visit and you only have 15 minutes with your doctor.

So and most most medical schools treat actually do very little to treat nutrition, very do that very little to treat lifestyle. And that's just not part of the curriculum. So you have to learn on your own as a doc and and that's and that's difficult it's not and then you know what often happens is that you have the doctors that go into the integrative specialties typically are people there are doctors that had to go through their own health challenges to get outside of the system get help and then realize that it was time for them to get outside of the system, get help, and then realize that it was time for them to look outside their specialty and do additional training in different types of modalities or practices to truly help people. So you'll find that the majority, I would say the majority of docs that I know that have gotten into integrative medicine have gotten in because of their own health challenges. And so that is, it's common. You go to the doctor, you feel like shit, you can't think, you have brain fog, you have fatigue,

you have aches and pains, but you know, all your laboratory work looks normal, right? So then they say, it's not anything going on with you. You're, this is in your head or something like that. But all they're looking at is disease focused markers. They're not looking at markers that are health focused. So they're not doing things outside the conventional that doesn't have randomized control data. And as a result of that, they're not getting the full workup that they probably need. And also what's challenging is that a lot of the laboratory normal values that you see when you go to your doctor's office are not truly normal values for your age. Their age ranges, that could be anywhere from like a thyroid level, for example. You can go to the thyroid, get your TSH checked, and it could be the normal range of somewhere

is the average range of a nine-year-old to like a 90-year-old, right? So that's the range that they use as your normal range. But if you're like 65 years old, do you want to have a TSH level of a 90-year-old? Do you want to have a TSH level of a 20-year-old? Which one do you want to have? So when are we most optimized? Is that typically between an age of about 21 to 30 years of age? And so that's really the normal ranges that we would be looking for under most circumstances.

And so when I go to a lab, I know that that's the case. And you're going to get like hormones checked or, or vitamins and minerals checked. Like, do you want to have a range level? Do you want to have a level that's the average of somebody that's 65? If you're, if you're 45, for example, right, you want to have the average, at least of being a 45 yearold person. So it's very difficult to navigate the system as a result of all these nuances, but it's important to know that there are ways to optimize health and look at these levels more in a range that would be more optimal for you and not optimal for somebody that's older than you, or maybe even your age if you're on the older side.

Do you know anyone else like yourself who, who, who became a physician, went to medical school, became birth board certified physician, knowing that your goal was to work in integrated medicine? You know, even one person. I mean, I know a lot of integrative medical docs. I know that there's, and I know a lot of them that are not MDs and DOs like naturopaths, for example, and chiropractors that certainly went in looking for this particular framework. I have, I don't know this. I'm just thinking about some of the integrative docs. I know most of them have had their own health challenges. Some of them have had significant

experiences with patients when they were early on in practice where they realized that they couldn't help them, that they really weren't making a huge dent in their trajectories. I have one doc that I know that was at least two docs actually that are ER docs that saw what was coming in and just saw the challenges that these patients were facing and saw how little they were really doing to change their trajectories. So I think it runs across the board, different experiences overall. So, but I don't know very many sons of chiropractors or daughters of chiropractors that went to medical school after getting, getting that framework as a kid. That's for sure. Did anything in you change did you um did you for uh i don't know for did you ever feel like going to the dark side was there any temptation

to totally yeah yeah i mean and was that was that temptation uh financially finance-based cash okay all right i mean if you get out of school and be a dermatologist and make seven hundred thousand dollars a year if you're going to be a specialist like that, it's obviously provocative, right? It's like, woo, that's a lot of money. I could just look at skin all day and I could do a couple of things here and I could make $700,000 a year. I mean, it's a lot of money, right? Yeah, it is a lot of money. And you have to think about a lot of people coming out of medical school are significantly in debt as well. So they're not coming out as a, as a clean slate. I mean, I had significant debt coming out of school and I had, I had some help,

right? And then you have people that had to take loans out for college and then for medical school and then for residency and for living and housing and boarding. You're talking about, I know some people that came out of medical school and college with $400,000 in debt. So this is like almost a half a million dollars in debt. So are you going to take a job that has more risk, for example, because you have all this debt to pay back as soon as you finish your training. And so it's not an easy, not an easy computation or a thought experiment or a real life experiment for people as they're going through school to know that they have to make a certain money. And I wasn't any different. I came out of school knowing that I needed to get

a real job. And I ended up doing, I continue to do part-time work in the hospital, actually. And because I don't mind it, actually, but I also know that for me, my main focus is the work that I do for optimizing health. But a lot of people like me have to take a real job when they get out of school, knowing that they have to pay back loans, they have families, et cetera. So it's a significant challenge for people. And that is actually by chance where you saw your first type of Barrett Chamber, right? During my medical school training, yeah. It was when I was in my third year of medical school.

I was doing a rotation at a place called Shock Trauma in Baltimore, which is a very well-known shock and trauma center where people train all over the world in shock and trauma, even the military does, because Baltimore has been known for a long time to be a violent place. And so gunshot wounds, stabbings, burns, carbon monoxide poisoning. So I ended up seeing a couple of people that went into the chamber for carbon monoxide poisoning and severe infections. And I saw some amazing things happen to these people. And when I learned it was just oxygen and pressure, I had significant, I had like a light bulb come off, you know, go off in my head because I was like, wow, this is just so simple. And this is some amazing things

that it can do. And then, and in the, in the acute setting, and then I did my own research and saw what it was being used for across the world for healing and recovery and, and all these other modality integrations that were happening around the world, not so much in the United States, but especially for things that we had a really hard time treating and still do in the medical world, like patients that had strokes, for example, or traumatic brain injuries, or patients with Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or with chronic infections and significant injuries otherwise that really were not being well treated in the acute care settings. And I saw that there was significant data that showed hyperbaric therapy could help.

And then that's really why I decided to kind of go into the realm of the hyperbaric world, also knowing that it had these conventional indications. It's insurance covered for 14 indications in the United States. And then there's about 50 or 60 other conditions where there's really great data and you could use an integrative perspective to truly help people. And there was also this other delineation where if you had an acute injury, hyperbaric therapy was fantastically helpful in helping you heal that faster. And it didn't really matter how much integration and how much other stuff you did, although it would help if you had the additional ideas of what you could do before, during, and after the integrations that

could help you. But the ability to acutely rev up the process of healing was extremely effective in a lot of different ways. And we have evidence of that in acute stroke, acute heart attack, acute traumatic brain injury now with some studies that are happening, acute spinal cord injury, acute traumatic brain injury now with some studies that are happening acute spinal cord injury acute trauma to a limb partial amputations acute infections like necrotizing fasciitis which is flesh-eating bacteria etc like you get them in the chamber why that why that it doesn't like all the oxygen right yeah that particular infection is it's called an anaerobic or low oxygen thriving infection so you get that person into a high oxygen environment along with antibiotics,

along with other things like wound care and even surgery at times, you can see significant benefit and reversing of dramatic problems, dramatic injuries, dramatic surgeries, like amputations and things like that that typically happen under that circumstance. No, I don't think the penis pump is considered a hyperbaric chamber but thank you for the uh thoughtful uh uh question

yes very very thought where does the ox with the oxygen um i like posting those comments because they think i'm going to be afraid to post them um uh where does it in those hyperbaric chambers does that machine do you have to like constantly replenish it with oxygen tanks? So the way it works is that you have a chamber that simulates the pressure that you would feel under a certain amount of seawater. So that pressure can be anywhere between 1.3 to about 2.4 ATA, which is our therapeutic window.

And that equates to about 10 feet of seawater to about 45 feet of seawater. So if you can imagine, if you're under 45 feet of seawater, all that water above you is exerting a pressure on you because water is extremely heavy. So it's that heaviness that we simulate in a hyperbaric environment. And then we add oxygen. Oxygen is what we need to breathe. We need oxygen to make energy. Without oxygen, we don't live very long, as we all know. Oxygen allows you to make ATP in your mitochondria, which are known as the powerhouse or the batteries of our cells. We have mitochondria in all of our cells except for red blood cells. The most mitochondria we have are in our brain, in our heart, our liver, in our muscle tissue,

especially have lots of mitochondria because we need to make lots of energy when we need it. So in a hyperbaric environment, we pressurize the tank and then we give you extra oxygen. That extra oxygen can be given by a mask, via hood, or it could be 100% oxygen in the chamber itself, depending on the chamber that you have. As you are getting the oxygen and as you are getting the pressure, the oxygen is being pumped in, the chamber is being pressurized, and then the chamber is continuing to filter itself so that you're continuing to get fresh oxygen and the pressure continues to pressurize and go through as well. So that's the basics of it. And the combination of the extra oxygen and the

pressure drive more oxygen in circulation. You can get up to 12 times the amount of oxygen in circulation in a hyperbaric environment compared to being at sea level. And you cannot get the same amount of oxygen in circulation with a face mask because the mask doesn't have the pressure. And it's as a result of all that oxygen going in that you have all these massive shifts in your physiology that happen both acutely and over the long term, secondary to what are called epigenetic changes on your DNA, or these are expression changes to your DNA, to the genes on your DNA that allow you to heal and optimize over time. And do you have to constantly replenish oxygen tanks or is there a machine attached to these chambers?

So you do. So once you buy it, there's a maintenance to it. Well, it depends. Like you can, in milder units that go to 1.3 atmospheres, you can get an oxygen concentrator and an oxygen concentrator will continue to replenish itself with the air around wherever the oxygen concentrator and an oxygen concentrator will continue to replenish itself with the air around wherever the oxygen concentrator is. So you can get oxygen that in that way without

having to get oxygen tanks. If you go deeper, especially deeper than about 1.5 or 1.75, that's when you need bottled oxygen or compressed O2 or liquid oxygen. And that's, and those need to be replenished. And so is it as simple as this? Um, when you say 1.3, that's 13 feet below sea level. Yeah. It's about, it's about, uh, about 11 feet below sea level. And I, I heard you in an interview saying that you can get so much pressure. I'm going to mess this up. Oh, I know what you're doing. I know what you're talking about. You're so if you add three atmospheres of pressure, which is the equivalent of 66 feet of seawater,

you can drive so much oxygen in circulation that you no longer need your red blood cells to carry oxygen. And red blood cells are the typical cell that will carry oxygen from your lungs when we take a breath to the rest of the body to maintain your physiologic processes. Yeah, explain that. I can't even like fathom that. What's the mechanism there? So yeah, the oxygen gets diffused into the plasma or the liquid of your bloodstream.

So there's a significant amount of liquid in your bloodstream that carries your red blood cells, that carries all the other cells in your body. It also has salt in it and other types of electrolytes and other types of things like hormones and that are being traveling that are traveling in your system in your plasma the plasma has very little oxygen in it at sea level however when you start giving more pressure or simulating the pressure you would feel under a certain amount of seawater that oxygen will bind red blood cells if there is any amount that can still bind. Typically, if your lungs are normal at sea level, you're getting about 96% to 100% of those sites already bound. So if you've ever had a pulse ox on your finger, that's what it's measuring, the number of red blood cell sites that are carrying oxygen, and that's the hemoglobin

molecule itself. So under pressure, though, you're driving oxygen on any of those sites that are still available, but for the most part, you're driving it into the plasma or the liquid of your bloodstream itself. And as a result of that, you can get a significant amount of oxygen into the plasma, which is free-flowing oxygen, so it can get further into tissues and the tissue beds as well. oxygen so it can get further into tissues and the tissue beds as well. And you brought up Jehovah Witnesses in regards to that saving their lives. And it was interesting because in high school, I had a girlfriend whose mom died because she wouldn't take a blood transfusion.

She was Jehovah Witness. And I was thinking, so what you're saying, if I'm understanding this correctly, if you're Jehovah Witness and you lose a ton of blood and you don't have enough blood to provide the oxygen to the body, you put them in a hyperbaric chamber. It can temporize it, right? So it's not going to reverse the need for more red blood cells, but can potentially temporize. It's used in acute hemorrhage a lot. So in the sense of somebody is losing a lot of blood very fast and you're trying to get them more blood and you try to temporize their need for more, you need to give them plasma infusions or something like that, which we do, then you can do that and put them in a hyperbaric environment and help them

maintain or potentially give them a little bit more time. Now, certainly I've used hyperbaric therapy for people with chronic anemia as well. And this is in people that have chronic anemia for any number of reasons, whether it be iron deficiency, chronic blood loss, or in people that have cancer, for example, and that are going through cancer treatment and that are anemic. And so it can certainly give you a little bit of a boost. It's not going to last a huge amount of time because once the oxygen, once you come out of the hyperbaric environment, the amount of oxygen that you have floating around is going to be increased for about 30 minutes to an hour after you get out of the chamber. Then after that, it's going to go away. So there's increased oxygen

utilization for about 24 hours after you get out of the chamber, but the amount of oxygen in your system is going to go back to a normal level, depending on how that level, depending on how many red blood cells you have after about 30 minutes to an hour. What's the longest someone can stay in one of those? I guess it depends on the atmospheric pressure, right? Right. It depends. So in general, we keep people in there usually no more than two hours. However, if somebody has the bends or decompression illness where they've gotten the bends or decompression illness because of being underwater. Sometimes those people can be in the chamber for like four or five hours, depending on what's

needed, because they have to slowly depressurize them over a period of time to prevent the bends from recurring. The bends is specifically nitrogen buildup in the body that, and as a result of these nitrogen bubbles that come out of circulation, they block circulation and cause strokes, ischemia, death potentially. But the way you can get those bubbles to go back in circulation is by repressurizing them back to the level of when they had their injury and then slowly depressurizing them over time. These are called dive tables in the Navy and other facilities around the world, but the Navy came up with these back in the early 1920s and 1930s around the world. But the Navy came up with these back

in the early 1920s and 1930s and 40s. So that's the only time you're really in the chamber for more than two hours. Most commonly, it's a 90-minute session. It's crazy to me that you can reverse it. I don't understand that. Like once the damage is done, I would think it's done. Well, it depends on how severe

and how long the damage has been going on. But if somebody comes up from a dive and they have immediate injury or immediate symptoms, if you can get them into a hyperbaric chamber very quickly, you can reverse a lot of that damage. What is quickly? Like hours, days? Within hours. Within hours.

Yeah. I mean, certainly you could see benefit even within days, but definitely as soon as possible, as fast as possible. You think about it, you have an artery that has a bubble in it, a nitrogen bubble that's blocking circulation, the blocking flow. So anything past that bubble is not getting any oxygen. And so typically these bubbles are small and they're going into the microcirculation, but sometimes they can be large and they can kill people as well. But if you can get that person back under pressure, that bubble is going to resolve itself.

Flow is going to return. It changes size. Yeah. And then, well, then it changes size into the point where it's no longer air. We're no longer a bubble of air. It's a nitrogen bubble of air. It goes back into the blood circulation as a liquid. Oh, so let me, just so I can understand them, make sure I understand the mechanism. You could give someone the bends by putting them under three atmospheric pressure and

then just open the door. Oh yeah. And everyone in there would be screwed, right? Well, I mean, the other, the other, there's a couple of things there. So when you're under a hundred percent oxygen conditions, it's very difficult to get the bends because, because the bends happens because of nitrogen. So you can't, but you, if you put somebody, if you, if you did that, like on a submarine, for example, like that's, we'll give you the bends because you if you put somebody if you if you did that like on a submarine for example like that will give you the bends because you're under nitrogen and oxygen conditions there's about

80 of the air that we breathe a little bit less than that is nitrogen and then there's about 21 oxygen in the air and then the rest is there's also a small other of additional types of gases in the air as well that are you know depending on where you are could be increasing carbon monoxide if you're in the city for example but for the most the most part of the area that we breathe is nitrogen so it's something that we always have to be careful of and what makes divers a little woozy and confused it in under pressure conditions under like under the water is nitrogen that's called nitrogen narcosis as well. So nitrogen is the, is the main thing that causes the beds. Um, should, uh, broad question should, should all athletes be using, um, hyperbaric chambers, all professional athletes, should everyone have one,

one of these things at home? Well, I mean, I think that it's hard to make broad strokes to say everybody should, but I would say that if you're looking for increased recovery, going into a hyperbaric environment is going to help you. I mean, it's been used by athletes anywhere from people like Michael Phelps have used hyperbaric therapy for recovery to strong men, people that are using it to others like Lance Armstrong and that use hyperbaric therapy in their recovery as they're one of the main things that help them with recovery because we know that if you go into the chamber it's going to decrease inflammation it's going to help with lymphatic flow it's going to help with getting oxygen to tissue that was just damaged during exercise i mean we damage tissue during exercise to help with hypertrophy

but we also want the damage to be uh to kind of be minimized on some not minimized but like the the length of the damage in the sense you need an hour or so of hormetic stress after exercise, maybe a little bit longer than that to make sure that you increase the number of hormones that you want to help with hypertrophy. But after that, you really just want to be recovering, right? So this is a fantastic way to help with recovery. And so I use it also, uh, in, in also an injury, obviously if people have injuries and this will help them recover faster from injuries in general, if you're on average, it's about 50% faster.

You're going to recover from an injury. If you can get into a hyperbaric environment. I heard you mentioned Tommy John's. That's a great example, right? That's the elbow injury pitchers get, right. And there's a, and there's a 50% faster recovery rate on average, right? So like it could be at 20% faster, it could be 70% faster,

but on average, it's about 50% faster. It really depends on your underlying physiology to start off with how healthy you are. The healthier you are, the faster you're gonna recover. I mean, I have an example of a lady that I worked with, that I still work with, that she's a long distance runner. She had an Achilles tendon sprain, and she was told that she would be six weeks to get

back and start running. She was back in two and a half weeks. And she did that using hyperbaric therapy. She did electric stim inside the chamber. This is in a mild unit, by the way. So you don't bring in things to deep, deeper pressure units, but in mild units, you can bring in things. So she brought in electric stem machine as well as some other modalities. And she obviously was getting body work. She was doing other stuff with her trainers, but like, you know, standard of care for her would have been six weeks, but for us, it took two and a half. So, and just to be clear, and I know you've driven this home. I've watched so many of your lectures. is all um uh um dr sure isn't like hey man this is this is the holy grail he is really focused on an integrative approach

and everything and if you go listen to more i'm just really pursuing the um bariatric chamber right now um not bariatric hyperbaric you're not the first it's okay but your bariatric surgery will still not recover faster in a hyperbaric chamber that's one place that will will not help i'm so against bariatric surgery sorry um uh what about so so these athletes that are doing multi-day events let's say say like the Tour de France or let's say the CrossFit Games where they're putting the body under this insane stress. These guys are coming with their own mattresses, their own ice baths, their own portable sauna. I mean, they're doing everything, right? Right. For five grand, you could get a really nice portable hyperbaric chamber throw that in your hotel

room too right yeah i mean it's not that easy to travel with but if you're traveling with all that other stuff i mean certainly it's not a huge amount of it you have your sponsor pay for it you have coca-cola pay for it you get them to pay for it sure yeah yeah i mean so the the chambers themselves like the mild units the ones you can take around that are portable, they can go to anywhere between 1.3 and 1.4, sometimes 1.5 atmospheres. They are, you know, from a pricing perspective, they're usually running somewhere between about 10 and 20 K. Okay. You can get some ones that are smaller that are less money than that, than that, but like your CrossFit dudes won't be able to fit in them most likely because they're gonna be oh they're little dudes they're little dudes they are little little yeah little guy because they got to do so much running and stuff they're strong

but they're still like they're a five nine guy okay well they might be able to fit in them and they're just not that comfortable in general but in essence yes you could bring the chamber and you can help with recovery and then actually i, I can't remember what year these Olympics were. It was in Japan. It was a, there was a winter Olympics. I think it was in Kyoto and they did some work with Japanese athletes with recovery and they had significant benefit in their recovery and their day-to-day training and also in their competitions as well. So there was actually a study that looked at that. So, and I've worked with athletes that have done these multi multi-day events and that actually the mild chambers are actually perfect for these kinds of things, because you don't want to go into a deep chamber, most likely because

the deeper chambers, they can cause a lot of decreased inflammation. They can cause a lot of healing, but they also, if the, if the person's under a lot of stress, the oxygen at higher depths or deep, deeper depths can cause oxidative stress itself. And that can also potentially be challenging for somebody that's already under a lot of heavy stress already. So it's a bit of a, there's a bit of a sweet spot for athletes that are undergoing active competition versus people that are training and trying to recover and also, you know, working in that frame. So it's, there's a bit, there's a lot of nuances when it comes to what's best in the setting of getting into the

chamber. You know, is it better to get in a mild unit? Is it better to get into a deeper unit? It depends on what's going on and what what's going on, like what's happening right now versus what the long-term and short-term goals are. Let's say, um, uh, the shoe company, it's, it's a sports company. That's kind of like really of like really taken on a bunch of athletes in CrossFit. They have 20 athletes and they say, Dr. Schur, we want to provide a hyperbaric chamber next year at the CrossFit Games for our 20 athletes. We have a schedule for them. Can we hire you to manage that protocol for the athletes over this seven day event? Do you do stuff like that? to manage that protocol for the athletes over the seven day event. Do you do stuff like that?

I've never done something like that, but I certainly have worked with a lot of facilities around the world that have hyperbaric therapy and that integrate it with other modalities. That's definitely something that I've done. I've worked with individual athletes that have been involved in multi-day competitions and finding various ways to use the chambers to help them recover. I mean, I've even had people that do naps inside the chamber in the middle of the day between competitions for, yeah, these guys are not, these guys are napaholics. And so napping is a really great place to, a really great place to nap is inside of a hyperbaric environment because you're napping, you're relaxing and you're getting more oxygen at the same time. So I've had people that do, you know, multiple sessions, like smaller

hyperbaric sessions within a day so that they get like nap in the middle of the day, and then they get a recovery session at the end of the day, etc. It depends. I've worked with high-end entrepreneurs that do conferences, and they do naps in the middle of the day inside their hyperbaric chamber as well. So I would certainly be intrigued by the potential of using it in a larger setting like that, but I haven't done it, but it's, I would, I would be excited for the opportunity. Um, what about, uh, so I stopped eating every, uh, every, uh, Saturday night I stopped eating. Um, and then I don't start eating again until Monday morning. I've done that for two and a half years. I'm kind of like, I got hooked on this whole idea of autophagy and, and I'm, and I'm really, um, uh, I, I got kicked off of Instagram saying that basically sugar was the devil and show me one person who, one healthy person that's died from COVID. Just one. That's all. I just, just show me one, one person with good NK cells and good T cells. Just show me one, you know, their bloodstream is not filled with insulin, and I just want to see one.

And so I'm really – that's where I won't shut the fuck up. But what about doing that with protocols like that? You mean autophagy? of, if you were going to get into sort of a lifestyle hypobaric chamber protocol for your lifestyle, how does that work with fasting? So a couple of things. We know that at least at deeper pressures that if you're ketogenic or if you have ketones floating around when you're fasting, this is when you start burning fat instead of glucose to make energy. You make ketones as a by byproduct of energy metabolism. We know that the chambers are going to increase your ketone levels because we know that

hyperbaric therapy, at least at the deeper pressures, increases insulin sensitivity. So more insulin is going to kind of get dumped into your muscle, into other tissues. And so as a result of that, your blood sugar is going to go down. Now, this isn't a long-term play in the sense that it's just an acute result of going into a hyperbaric environment. So we know those two things are happening. Your glucose levels are going to go down and your ketone levels are going to go up inside the chamber. So I've worked with protocols for many years for people that have combined the ketogenic diet with hyperbaric oxygen therapy to help increase

the ability for both of those stimuli to work better, the hyperbaric therapy and the ketogenic diet itself. So in people that are fasting, as long as they're used to fasting, I don't have a problem going into the hyperbaric environment. Now, if it's something that you're not used to doing and your blood sugar drops in the chamber, you're not going to feel very good, right? Because your blood sugar is going to drop and you're going to feel hypoglycemic. But if you're relatively good at shifting over from glucose metabolism to fat metabolism and making ketones, then it's not an issue. So in some people, actually, I want to raise their ketone levels as well. And so we can give exogenous ketones depending on what the requirements are. I've worked on this with mostly with cancer patients, but sometimes in the performance

space, we've worked on it a little bit too. We know that the ketones are anti-inflammatory. So if you have ketones floating around, you're going to have decreased oxidative stress or decreased inflammatory load. So there's some indications of people that are really, really on high inflammatory loads to think about this. But like for me, in that case, it's really looking at looking at more of a optimized level of vitamins, minerals, nutrients, antioxidant level levels, gut health, etc. To really focus on that as being a bigger piece, rather than just busting them with ketones to help protect them. But if you don't have a choice, if there's no time, and these are some of the things that I'll think about. But yeah, so you can certainly bring in fasting into a hyperbaric protocol.

Oftentimes, this is more of a protocol that I would be thinking about doing more foundational work on biology and cellular health rather than just going into the chamber with that stimulus as well. I made the presupposition that there are people who use um hyperbaric chambers like exercise like so like i ride the assault bike every day you know or you know 10 out of 11 days are there people who do that too is is there people who just like eating or exercising or sleeping the hyperbaric chamber is part of their their life well certainly uh the hyperbaric therapy can cause a hormetic stress in the sense that it causes the body with an increased oxygen load, you make more energy, you make more products of energy metabolism, which are called reactive

oxygen species. When you do that, it's like ROS, if you were doing exercise, for example, just a different type of stimulus. And as a result of that ROS going up, you have the body shifting its epigenetics. It's changing expression of DNA to help more blood vessels to grow, more stem cells to be released, more inflammatory markers to get down regulated. And as a result of that, it is hormetic stress in that capacity. And in addition, it's also hormetic stress in the sense that it's, or it's a stress in the sense that it's helping with pressurization of blood vessels and lymphatics. So it's like a, it's like a micro massage to your blood vessels and to your lymphatics. So getting more blood flow into tissue and getting more lymphatic flow out of tissue.

So in that ways, I would, I would agree. Yes. I wonder if divers get, I wonder if people who dive get that. For those who embrace the impossible, the Defender 110 is up for the adventure. This iconic, award-winning vehicle has been redefined with a distinctive, modern design. A reimagined exterior features compelling proportions and precise detailing. Built with integrity and purpose, the interior boasts robust, durable materials. Whether it's the all-terrain capability, ample cargo capacity, or innovative camera technology, the Defender 110 lets you go further and do more. And with

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$49 annual fee applies. See home club for details. I'm not sure. You know, they haven't really done a lot of studies on this. I mean, the only study that I like to talk about with divers is that, specifically, is that they did a study on these traumatic brain injured veterans. And they had them all diving under the water. And they all got better. And the thought was... And was it for, like, some sort of psychological therapy? Yeah.

But then the byproduct was... That their TBIs got better. And the thought was it for like some sort of psychological therapy, but then the byproduct was that their TBIs got better. And the conclusion of the study is that diving and like being underwater and seeing all the, you know, the beautiful scenery was helping these people, these guys. Um, but really what they were doing is getting more oxygen to their brain because they were diving. And as a result of that, my belief is that that's what really helped them overall was getting more oxygen to their brain and helping healing these injuries. Because we know oxygen is a rate limiting step, especially in the brain to help it heal. The brain is already working at its max capacity, getting over 20% of your cardiac output as far as how much oxygen is going to it at all times. And the brain has these regulatory mechanisms that prevents it from swelling almost at all costs. Your knee can

swell, but your brain can't because then you die. So as a result, it's much more difficult for the brain to get enough oxygen to heal some of these wounds. It's actually easier to heal your knee than it is your brain after you've gotten injured. So that's why getting more oxygen in the system per volume, because you're getting it in the plasma itself is so important. Do you know this book, Travis Christopherson wrote tripping over the truth? I know Travis very well. Yes, you do. Are you a big fan of the book? Yeah, yeah, I know, Travis, I know the book. I've spoken to Travis many times. I love his work. I love the things that he's up to now as well, but yes.

I apologize to all the listeners. You guys always ask me what my favorite books are, and I always forget to mention this book. That book probably changed my life. Travis Christopherson, Tripping Over the Truth. Do you know about the vasovasorum? Define it for me they're the small well let me i'll go back a little bit um you talk about how um being in the hyperbaric chamber uh helps with the architecture of the body and it sort of helps with the scaffolding right and when you use that i was like i was and i had to hear you give a bunch of different examples uh yesterday when i was listening to you talk and then i think I finally understood it.

The vasovasorum – I'm going to pull up a picture here for you. Yeah, I'm taking a look at it now as well. Okay, yeah, these are the small blood vessels that comprise the supply of large blood vessels. Yes, okay. Okay, so there are these blood vessels, and they feed the arterial walls. Right. And basically, blood cells can only go down there one at a time. So they need crazy motility, right?

They go down there and they feed the arterial wall. And it was always thought that before that when the arterial wall would collapse, it was happening from the inside. from the inside but more and more people are now i think the smarter group of people are realizing that people who um eat too much sugar basically they're losing cell motility and the cells aren't able to go down those vasofasorum and feed the arterial wall and so the arterial wall is dying and then what's happening is the cholesterol is then adhering to the inside to try to heal that that womb sorry if i'm oversimplifying it. That's cool. Yeah. But when I heard you talk about the hyperbaric chamber increases that you can get some new blood vessels, I thought, Holy cow.

So there's the integrative piece. You're eating too much sugar. You're getting blood clots. You're, you're fucking life's gone to hell. You're, you're needing stints. And then all of a sudden you'd be like, fuck it. I'm going to take this integrative approach and i'm going to start eating healthy and all of a sudden there's this hope that if you do hyperbaric chambers you could get new vasovasorum to come to grow because there are these tiny little um you know blood vessels right right and and to feed the um arterial wall and i just thought i was just that was like a real life example that i just kind of concocted

in my imagination when i heard you say that but that's the kind of architecture you're talking about, right? The vasovasorum are sort of that architecture, right? They're the scaffolding that kind of keep the whole system going. Yeah. I mean, I can't speak directly about the vasovasorum because I'm not sure that's been studied, but I do know there's been multiple imaging studies that have looked at hyperbaric therapy, looking at before and after, and looking at new vasculature that is growing in your brain, in your heart, around your genitals, for example. So they did a study on erectile dysfunction, improving erections inside the hyperbaric

chamber because you're making penile blood flow better and some of the microvasculature. We know that this happens in diabetics with foot ulcers and the microcirculation and helping with optimizing the microcirculation so you're getting more oxygen to that tissue to help it heal. Diabetes is a microvascular disease typically. So that's what typically gets injured and defective over time. the vasovasorum itself, only to say that we know that where there's damaged blood vessels, hyperbaric therapy seems to be able to help recreate or regenerate the blood vessels in this area. And it does that also by regenerating a lot of the other additional connective tissue that's within that area that may be damaged over time. And that could be anything from nerve cells to bone cells to heart cells to the supportive cells in the brain, like the

glial cells, et cetera, that we can see these things recover inside of hyperbaric treatment protocols. So that's one of the major amazing things about being inside of a hyperbaric environment is rebuilding that scaffolding. What if I say this, is this a dickhead thing to say? You're 60 pounds overweight. You wake up every morning and get two donuts and a coffee at Dunkin' Donuts full of sugar, and you eat like crap throughout the day, and then you stay up late at night when you come home from work doing whatever, I don't know, jerking off to porn. off to porn and um now you um have trouble getting an erection when you finally do get a date god knows who's going out with you and um you think oh i'm going to go to the hyperbaric chamber it's like no dude like that like like it's it's a four-part thing stop eating the donuts lay off the porn sleep more and hyperbaric chamber right right it's not like, it's not Viagra, take the pill and, and. Right. No, I mean, whenever I talk to somebody, it's always within the context of 80% of what I talk about has nothing to do with hyperbaric therapy at all.

Because if somebody wants to go in there for a long-term. You mean like if someone comes and visits you, 80% of your conversation is not hyperbaric. Yeah. It's all, it's all, mostly what I do is virtual these days. And so 80% of what I talk about has nothing to do with hyperbaric therapy because really the chambers are fantastic synergizers, accelerators and help you recover. But if you're not doing the basic things, it's very unlikely that you're going to see the results that you want. Or if you do see those results, they're not going to last very long. There was a study that was done in Israel where they did 60, 6-0 hyperbaric chamber sessions. And they did it over three months, so Monday through Friday with the weekends off.

And they did it in a healthy aging cohort of 65 years and above. These people did not change their diet. They did not change their lifestyle. And despite all that, they still had significant improvements in health markers. Their telomere length went up, which is a sign of longevity. Yeah, that's fascinating. That's fascinating. And there are senescent cells, which are called these zombie cells in our body that accumulate as we get older.

They don't divide. They don't make anything useful. They just cause inflammation. That population went down about 30%. And they also did, on that same cohort, they showed new blood vessels in the brain and the heart, genitals, everything that I told you just recently, just a minute ago. But the question that I have is twofold. What if you optimize these people's health beforehand? How much or how many fewer hyperbaric sessions would they need to see these kinds of changes? The second is, how long do the results last if you don't change anything else in your life?

And that's the answer we don't know, we don't have. But in my experience, maybe six months, maybe a year, you'll see these benefits. But then people are going back to the same things that they were doing before. You're going to go back to the way you were before, and you've wasted all that money that you spent initially. So maybe you've given yourself additional six months or a year where things have stopped progressing or deteriorating as fast, but you're going to get back on that path at some point. So I'm a big fan of always expressing my emphatic nature that hyperbaric therapy will not help if you're doing all the things that are not helping you, that got you to the point where you're asking me for help now. And that's why if it's a chronic or long-term goal, I'm always under the frame of using my

clinical practice, which is called health optimization medicine, which builds on this foundation prior to getting them into the chamber. Now, the additional thing to mention is that if it's an acute issue, like we mentioned before, getting into the chamber, getting that oxygen and trying to support people as much as possible during that timeframe is a good idea. So even if you aren't fully optimized, if you have an acute issue, getting the chamber will very likely help you. If there's an acute inflammatory load, you're going to see it. So. Is this your website?

Yeah, that's one of them. That's my health concierge called health optimization medicine and practice, where I focus on optimizing vitamins, minerals, nutrients, health markers, optimizing the gut neurotransmitters and hormones and things like that. So that's the foundation of my hyperbaric practice. It is separate. Sometimes I work with people just on this piece. And I also just work people on the hyperbaric piece as well. But I, I encourage people, if they don't work with me, they work with somebody else that looks at optimizing these kinds of biomarkers as well. But I, I encourage people, if they don't work with me, they work with somebody else that looks at optimizing these kinds of biomarkers as well. Why did you move to Colorado? I have four kids and I needed a bigger house and California was getting a little bit too tight financially, politically, everything else in between. So I, I, Colorado was also closer to family. So we decided to move out

here. Gotcha. Um, did you have any, um, when you started seeing, um, the, the ship with the people on it, um, off the coast of Japan, and then you started seeing the original studies come out of China, did you ever have any concerns about your own personal health for COVID? It's a good question. I mean, I think when we didn't know a lot in the beginning. You could have called me a dickhead for saying that too. So I appreciate the good question. No, in the sense that, I mean, I think about this in a lot of different ways. In the beginning, we were all scared, I think, because I don't think anybody really understood what was happening. I was in the hospital. I was working part-time. We didn't know

how to treat these patients coming in and we didn't know what to do. So it was a scary time. I did feel that I was giving myself the best chance that I could, given as healthy as I could be during that timeframe. in the beginning. But I think that, you know, as more information came out, understanding the, the, that what I really, I think, I guess, to go back to that beginning timeframe, what I really did appreciate, though, was that more people, more people than I could remember, ever were really concerned about their health. Not everybody, right? More people, other people were just staying at home and waiting for people to tell them what to do. And that that's okay too. I can understand that people were scared, but I also had a lot of conversations from the beginning of the pandemic with people that were interested in optimizing their health. And I got excited by that. And I think that that's continued throughout this timeframe now, post pandemic, if you want to call it that, that like that people

are more interested in optimizing their health, knowing now that we know that obesity was the major risk factor of dying from COVID, right? And then obesity and age were the two major things that were doing that. So now that we know that for sure, then it's obvious to a lot more people, not everybody, of course, that their health and the metabolic health that they have will be something that they need to know about and need to care about now because you never know what's going to happen. Right. So, so I actually was encouraged in a lot of ways, uh, throughout the pandemic that people were more interested as, especially as more information came out to show who was at most risk for, from dying, for example. Um, I appreciate your, your appreciate your optimism and your positivity on it.

I would just like to propose to you that age is a far less risk factor than most people think, that basically it's a correlate. But what was happening was, so there was the first study I saw that came out of china very early was is that the vast majority of people was like 90 who died were men who were 65 years or older who had been smoking for 30 years or more meaning they had been complicit in their demise and i know that there's a lot of people in this country who are 65 years or older who've been drinking you know six pack of coca-cola every day for 30 years or more. And I think that those two, and then the second largest cohort to die in China were, believe it or not, the wives of those men, which is kind of fascinating, right? They lived in the

house with the smoker. Um, uh, and, and there was this conflation that really scared our elderly that it was their age. So like healthy people, like my mom got scared when there was no reason for her to be scared. She's been doing CrossFit since she started CrossFit at 69. She has a, you know, very, she's a meats and vegetable, little meat, mostly vegetables lady. And she's doing CrossFit for 10 years. And, you know, she's five feet tall, 101 pounds. You know what I mean? So, so I just get, I, when I hear that, I just propose that to you. I just, as, um, it was confused as a correlate and I'm not saying that people's immune systems don't wane as they get older. Yes. But, um, to put the elderly inside, even when the CDC's website said never quarantined, you know, the healthy, I think that they did a, uh, I think, I think that they may, I think fear overcame logic. I think, I think that they may, I think fear overcame logic. Oh, there's no doubt about it and that it did in a lot of ways.

But look, for me, I mean, I saw. And our cohort's very unhealthy. Sorry. I mean, I, I re I realized that our cohort is very, very unhealthy. And I just like to say one more thing. You and I are, I have, I have two kids who are five and one who's seven. And you know, my, my wife had them on the living room floor and you didn't go to see a traditional doctor until you were 18 years old. So I understand that we've had a different path. healthy or something like that. It's like less than 10% of adults. It's really quite sad. I mean, you can see that when you walk outside, right? Of course. Yeah, of course. And you don't have to be in the country to see it. You can see it

in every city, every place you go now. So it's a real big deal. But on the hyperbaric side, it was interesting throughout the pandemic. Initially, they were using the chambers to help people that couldn't get oxygenated any other way. They put them in hyperbaric environments, and they were able to potentially save a lot of people's lives. Not a lot of people, because it wasn't used as widely spread as we would have liked, but it was used and did show some benefit. And now in the post-COVID world, we're using hyperbaric therapy, and there's actually a new study that just came out that looked at post-COVID syndrome, people that had long COVID, with significant benefit in their symptoms,

both pulmonary, neurologically, and otherwise. And that's been a big thing and a big push recently for me and a lot of the work that I do and a lot of the hyperbaric chamber facilities that I work with is that we're seeing a lot of post-COVID people and we're seeing a lot of people that have been injured. And some of these people are even vaccinated and injured as well. So we're seeing that as well. And so these are people that are benefiting from getting into the hyperbaric environment and helping with optimizing blood flow, decreasing inflammation, helping with new stem cells and new scaffolding and tissue that's been damaged. So I'm actually quite excited with the ability of this particular modality to help.

But I think the other piece of this is that the people that did get or did get long COVID symptoms or get even post-vax symptoms, post-vaccination typically had metabolic challenges prior to getting COVID or getting vaccinated. And so it's not just about getting into the chamber for me. Again, it's more of the building on your foundational biology, your foundational ecosystem, looking at markers, your vitamins, your foundational biology, your foundational ecosystem, looking at those, looking at markers, your vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and the cofactors and the type of diet that you're eating and the lifestyle and how much sunlight you're getting and how much, what kind of water you're drinking and the, the environment in your home and your

stress and everything else. But all those things are extremely important for everybody and not just people that are, that are sick, because obviously if you can look at a lot of these things before you get sick, you can prevent a lot of these potential conditions or issues down the line as well. So anyway, I'm excited with where the modalities that I work with most primarily are going because they are helping a lot of people. But I mean, I still obviously feel for those that are, that are going through all this at this point too., too. And you say something that I don't hear other doctors say. You say even people who are post-vax, meaning the injuries that may have happened from taking the injection.

Yeah, I mean, I've certainly had a number of those people over the last several years as well, you know, and that's it's not as well reported, unfortunately. But there is huge Facebook groups and other groups that have that have multiple thousands of people that have. And I speak to these people both in the long COVID side and also with the Vaxx injury as well. I mean, it does happen. I mean, and so it's probably blown out of proportion on both ends as far as how much it happens. But it's at the same time, it's a real thing. And I've seen significant benefits using the chambers. Just from an ethical point of view, I'm probably on the side that's blowing it out of proportion

on the dangers of the vaccine, but just to be just completely transparent, I say this on my show all the time. I can't justify saving someone who's 82 years old, who's 30 years or 50 years complicit in their demise through lifestyle choices to even injure one three-year-old kid. I just can't, I can't, I can't, I just personally can't make the trade off. I have to save that three-year-old kid, even for 300 million people over 82. And I would do the same when I'm 82. Although my parents are

like, we'll see. Yeah. So you completely have your perspective and that's totally cool. For me, I think the one caveat to that is that that 82 year old person, they didn't know what they were doing. Nobody told them how to eat. Nobody told them that they shouldn't be having this. You know, the doctors didn't help them. Their families didn't help them. The culture didn't help them. So it's hard for me to put a lot like complete blame on people you know because right right um certainly i don't want to blame them either i don't think blame i wouldn't choose that word i would spin it differently but yeah i mean it's just important for me because i i i see all different types of people and right most people maybe not until the last several years really had any clue that they were doing anything wrong right um. Now, of course, that's not everyone, but I mean, I, but it's, it's just something to keep in mind. Right. So I try to remind myself that too. Right. I grew up eating McDonald's and Taco Bell and never once thought it was bad for you. Right. Never once. So there are still many people that still feel that way. So totally even now. So, and their favorite people are pushing those meals down there, down their throat via the internet television or their family, you know, their

parents, they don't have a lot of money and that's what, that's how they can feed their family. I mean, it's a big deal. It's not, it's not cheap to, uh, to eat healthy as well. And as I know from my grocery bills every week, so there is a a a practice that you have mentioned that you use with your kids that i fortunately my wife uh taught me um before i had kids and now i use it on my kids it's the greatest tool ever and it is whenever i'm around my children to double down on my meditative state to make sure that I am not reacting. I am a firm believer that almost everything my kids learn from me is through my reaction. So, you know, if I raise my voice to my kids, my wife will pull me aside and she's like,

you know what you did? She's like, don't do that. I'm like, what? Yell at the kids? She goes, no, teach them that losing control is okay. I don't care if you yell at them, but you're telling them you just reacted instead of responded. You use the word responded. Stillness is the greatest gift we have. Yeah. Internal stillness, right? The idea is that kids don't do what you say, they do what you do, right? So you have to model behavior that you'd wish to see in a healthy, thriving adult, which you want your kids to be. So it's something that it's a constant practice, but it's, it's actually very easy with kids on some level, because,

yeah, it can be difficult at times. Not with four, not with four. It can be difficult at times. Not with four. Not with four. It can be difficult at times, especially when you just want them to go the fuck to bed. Right. But at the same time, like it's it's actually they're my one of my biggest teachers. Right. Because I know that they are they are taking in whatever I do and however I interact with the world. And so, however, interact with their mom or, you know, or, or the people that have come into our home or their friends and their family members, like they are observed, observing all those things. And, and I can see it in real time, how they interact with people. And I can see what, you know, what in real time we need to work on, what I need to work on, not they do what, what I do as a way to help them form a healthy relationship with their own interactions with the world?

I mean, so, yeah, I'm really big on meditation as a practice, as a thing that all of us really would benefit from doing. I was late to meditation, though. I didn't start doing it until about five years ago, really, as a more formal practice. I was until about five years ago, really, as a more formal practice. And that was really transformative for me and has continued to be as a way to reframe that the interactions with the world are what they are, but my response to that is what I choose it to be, right? So the external world is what it is, but how you respond and how you react is up to you. So one of the things I always say to my kids is that you can't control what other people say and do, but you can control what you say and do, right? Because no matter what, anything happens in the world. I mean, the greatest

example of this is the Viktor Frankl book that was written for World War II. I'm forgetting the name right now, but it was his experience in a concentration camp during World War II and how he was a psychologist and had written this whole book about this kind of framework. And he realized that no matter what these guards did to him, they could not take away what his response was to what they were doing to him. And it was called, it's one of these books, Man's Search for Meaning. That's what it's called. It's the

one on the left side there of your screen. And so that's really the key. And I've even given this example to my older kids about, look, even in a concentration camp where all of your dignity is stripped from you, you're not getting food, you're getting beaten, your response to that is still something they could never take away from you. Nobody can take that away from you ever, no matter what. And so that is a very powerful and empowering thought. And I always go back to that. I mean, I go back to that particular example of Viktor Frankl's book, but in milder examples all throughout my day, as you learn to meditate and you watch these feelings, sensations, emotions arise, I had some of them this morning as I was

trying to figure out how to do something really ridiculous. And it took me a long time to do it. I'm like watching these emotions arise, like, oh, look at this. This is anger. This is fear. This is frustration, right? But these are all just illusions, figments of your conscious imagination. Nothing is real. It's all just a figment of your imagination. So when you can create some space from that, we can create a little bit of space. And sometimes I have to just stop everything and just go and meditate just to be able to create that space again. And that's the beauty of having that modality and having that ability just go and meditate just to be able to create that space again. And that's the beauty of having that modality and having that ability to go and to take that time when you need it and when you have it. It's not the, one of my favorites is this, there's tons of examples, but it's not the

car alarm going off outside your window at three in the morning that's upsetting you. It's the story you're telling yourself about the car alarm. Stories will always get you in trouble. That's what it comes down to. And it's fascinating to me when people will say stuff like, how are you meditating in the noisy airport? Well, it's actually easier to meditate in a noisy, crazy place because you can just focus on that shit. It you can do it's just slowly you know cultivating this awareness and this stillness and this non-reaction i'm gonna i i hate to do this to you but i'm gonna bring that back to back to the covid thing when i would see these spiritual leaders react to the pandemic instead of sit with it and i saw and i saw a lot of them do that.

And I saw, I don't know if you're familiar with Marianne Williamson, but she ran for president of the United States. And I saw her lock herself in a apartment for two months and go on social media talking about it. And I just, I don't, I don't, I don't see that. I don't see that arise out of stillness. Sorry, go ahead.

That doesn't come just from political leaders. It comes from everyone. Of course. Of course. And I didn't I just meant like sort of I expected something, a stillness from our from our spiritual leaders, you know, from Marianne Williamson, a Deepak Chopra, Eckhart Tolle, a pope, a Dalai lama i expected a stillness in space around the um the react because it was kind you know you know what's interesting um uh scott i hadn't felt this level of unconsciousness sweep over humanity if i may since um the bombing of the world trade center yeah i felt some when that happened i was like holy shit something's. Like everyone just went to sleep. And then during the pandemic, I was like, oh, fuck, everyone around me just fell asleep again. Yeah. It was a trip.

I wish I could put my finger on it. I can't. It sounds phantasmagoric. But there was a wave of – I guess you could call it intense reaction as to letting that that first thought pass yeah and that's the best way to to describe it i think is that the people become uh when they fear for their life they become reactive right so and i and i think that you know we spiritual leaders are probably not immune to this as well in a lot of different realms. Like flailing in a pool. Like if there's 20 of us drowning, all of a sudden we're like, hey, someone's got to go to the bottom so we can stand on them.

Right, exactly. So I think the fear of death is the big issue. And so I think that that's when people become quite reactive, especially if they're worried about their loved ones, if they're worried about their kids, if they're worried about their parents and things like that. It's it's very there's an emotional there's an emotional hook with that kind of stuff that just puts everybody into fight or flight, you know, stress mode. And as a result of that, you have reactivity instead of responsiveness. And it's, it also becomes sort of a group think on some level as well, where they're, everybody is talking about it. Everybody is upset. Everybody is scared. So you feel like you need to be scared too. And so it's very difficult for you to pull yourself out of those kinds of cycles. It's because that's the news that you're seeing. That's what your families are talking about. So I'm not saying meditation is the cure of every, for everything, but certainly with

everything that's, you know, not going to, so, and it's hard because like, you can even say, well, with everything, that's not going to kill you right now, there should be some space to be thoughtful in your response. Right. But you know, with COVID and with the world trade center, like people thought they were going to die right now. Right. They didn't think that this was going to happen in two months or in seven years. This is like, I'm going to die tomorrow. Right. It's like, I have no time. I got, I got to stay in my house. I'm going to die. Right. So, or like, there's going to be another plane that's going to bomb my house or my building or whatever. Like, like we must attack the bad guy. Even if we don't know who it is just fucking get them yeah bomb something and there's also the politics of this of course

right because that's what they play into the emotions of people so that they hook them and so then everything that happened with the world trade center the patriotic patriotic etc we know it was so terrible for country but you can do that because it's like the fear. And then, and, and every politician knows the best time to, to do something is to leverage that fear, like leverage, leverage the opportunity. Right. So, but look, I think, you know, but I think there's more and more, more of us that are, you know, growing more of this awareness and this sort of conscious presence of the present moment, but also being able to create space in understanding how they react versus respond. Right. So, so I'm encouraged overall, but certainly,

certainly it's a challenging thing to navigate, especially with family members and politicians and all that kind of fun stuff. Damn, you're a cool dude. Another, another place where I think we see very strongly eye to eye is that there's this Taoist saying that says give everything up and you will receive everything. And I heard you saying something about – someone asked me the other day, what can I do – man, what did they ask me? What should I – basically, I'll use your words. You were basically saying it's better to subtract than add. Right. And I, and I believe in that so full heartedly. Yeah. We tend to build up layers and layers and layers as we get older and stories and stories and stories and stories. But

you know, all this is sort of ego construct, right? In the sense that we think that we have this certain way that we interpret the world. And then it becomes, as a result of that, we have a more narrowed worldview in the sense of ourselves and the world around us. And so be able to strip off those layers and sort of, you know, the way I like to think about is like, think about a baby, right? A baby is in this psychedelic imaginative world of, of presence where everything is new, everything is they're tasting and touching and feeling for the first time.

So if you can get yourself back to there, you are completely open to any potential opportunity to any potential thought or emotion. And then nothing has to mean anything because it doesn't mean anything. That's all your stories that you've evolved to believe over time. So if you peel off those layers, that's where you get sort of like your true nature, if you want to call it.

It's your sort of oneness with the universe kind of deal. So that's the emptiness. That's the no self. That's the impermanence that Buddhist philosophy will talk about a lot. Everything changes. Nothing is permanent. There's no such thing as the self. The self is a construct that we've created

to survive in this world. But the self is your ego. It's an illusion. You can't find it if you look for it. Like there are certain places in your brain where it sort of develops, but it's not one place. And you can turn it off. It's not something that has to run your life.

And on the most superficial level, who doesn't love throwing away half their shit? Sure. I mean, how good does it feel to go into your kid's room and just throw away half their toys? Sure. Or half your stuff, right? Yeah. Or going in your wife's like, Hey, you have too many shirts and you go in there and give half of them to goodwill. You're like, Oh my God, I feel so like, why do I feel so much better on your browser yes you have like it's like it's like a glory i love it when the power goes out and all my computer shuts down at first i panic i'm like nah fuck you guys no it's a beautiful reset right so that's a great example i've never heard anyone use yes i that's actually one of my relieving factors is that you have your tabs i

have like what i have like 10 tabs right now on this particular browser. When I, when I close the browser, it's like, it's beautiful. It's a clean slate. Right. So it's the same kind of deal with, you know, with your thoughts, your processes, your emotions, and your stories. Like if you can, if you can help dampen down that, that you will feel a relief, right. The release of the stories that you've held so dear that don't really mean anything, right?

There's this lady, she's married to Stephen Mitchell. Stephen Mitchell is the guy who translated the Tao Te Ching, the little pocket edition. I can't remember this lady's name. Maybe you remember her name. I bet you she lives in Colorado, but she's a spiritual teacher. And one of the cornerstones of her, uh, talks is

who would you be with that? She has this thing called the four questions, but one of them would be, who would you be without this thought? Right. Some guy cuts you off and you're like that asshole. And you're like, well, who would I be without this thought? Oh my God, my girlfriend cheated on me. Well, who would I be without that thought? And it's a re there's some really powerful tools to ditch stuff. Yeah. Yeah. There's lots of different ways, lots of different practices. tools to ditch stuff. Yeah. Yeah. There's lots of different ways, lots of different practices. I'm a big fan of Sam Harris's work and he has an app called the waking up app that's available on any, I think on any smartphone. And I love it because he does a lot of work in the, the Zog Chen philosophy of Buddhism, which is called the great perfection. And that's the, the ideas of no

self that I was mentioning before. But the idea is that if you look for yourself, you really can't find yourself. Like if you, there's a great exercise on there called the headless way, which was developed by somebody else, not Sam, but I love the, the practice of going through that.

It's called finding your head and looking for your head. It's an interesting one for people that they're interested in these kinds of things, because it's a great way to remind yourself that where you are and where the world begins there really is no defining plane that separates you um is it your skin or but is it your is it is it before your skin because you have bacteria that are surrounding you all the time you have like where is where are you and where is the rest of the world? There really is no defining block or no defining place that makes one of the other. So it's very interesting to kind of go through some of these some of these practices to see that what you really think you are is an illusion. And you're just creating these constructs in your brain and stories to help you feel safe. But you don't need them most of the time, unless you're in danger. Um, it's interesting. You say that I'm going to have like an identity expert on the show soon, but, um, I have some strong beliefs about that. Also, basically you're

born, you're given the name Scott, and then you spend the next until they bury you. You're trying to hold this thing together. That's changed and make it real. That's changing from second to second to second to second. But that being said said i think it's very very important that that a child has an idea a very strong identity i think they've gone completely the fucking wrong way with letting kids choose their identity you have to give a kid a very strong cultural identity and then hopefully if they get lucky someone in their 20s they'll uh see a spark of enlightenment and they'll realize that this identity is just a toolbox for them and it is not true. But they should know that they're Armenian and they have a big nose and that they're good at jiu-jitsu because they practice three hours a week and that they suck at basketball because they didn't practice and that they have a sister who's really nice. And you build – because you need that in order to grow and be strong.

And then you can abandon it. You don't introduce non-phantasmagorical ideas and abstractions that aren't real to a child until and by that i mean things like gender like or or you just give them it's it's man woman it's sex it's a signifier for what your chromosomes in your penis and that's it and then if at some point once they have a strong identity and they want to go into the abstract they can but i i just think that um i i i have a really strong belief that kids do need a strong identity that one, you give them, but also let them earn. Yeah. I mean, I love the quote from Ram Dass that says you have to become somebody before you

can become nobody. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And that's, that's truly how I feel too, that you need to have that. And somebody real, like a boy with a hand, a hat, right? Not, not somebody, not an imaginary person. Sure. I mean, I think having real people to, to model and to, and to have a sense of identity is really important. Obviously, I'm of the opinion that trying to give them the ability to respond rather than react and teach them meditation and teach them mindfulness and various practices is extremely helpful, even during that timeframe.

But I agree with you. Once they're fully formed and their identity is fully formed, then that's the time to start breaking it down and not before, uh, for the most part, that's why it's not great to do psychedelic drugs and other things until you're older. Um, especially because you do not want to lose that sort of sense of self narrative, uh, until you're ready to do that. Your brain is, is mature enough to be able to handle that breakdown. So, um, so I'm, I can't speak to, you know, exact examples other than to say that I do feel that that's the case that you need to become somebody before you can become nobody. That's Ram Dass's last book actually, as well. Jody, just, uh, I can barely sit for yoga. I can't imagine trying to meditate.

Oh, this is a good one. I like this question. I never thought I could sit still either. You can do walking meditations as well. There's quite a lot of ways to walk and meditate, but the key really, and I think one of my mentors told me this, and I think it really did hit it hit home for me is that everybody thinks meditation is like the lack of thoughts, like clearing your mind and not having any thoughts. That's not the case. You're always going to have thoughts. The idea is to be able to observe your thoughts and then watch them pass away because they will always go away. So if you can even do that for 30 seconds to start off with, like, oh, here's a thought,

like I'm waiting for the next thought. Okay, this is the thought. It's there. Okay, it's gone. Okay, next thought. Okay, it's there. I'm observing it. It's gone.

You do that for 30 seconds. That's all you need to do to start meditating. And certainly you can follow your breath. You can have a focus of your meditation as a way to bring yourself back to something that works too. But even more simple than that is what I just described. And you can do that when you're walking, you can do that when you're sitting, lots of different ways to do it. And you can do that when you're walking. You can do that when you're sitting. Lots of different ways to do it. But it's a very simple task that you can even start with like 10 or 20 seconds.

Just observe a thought. Oh, that's a thought. Okay, there it goes. And then, okay, here's the next one. That's the way you start as far as I'm concerned. And that really helped me. You can do things like lie perfectly still and set a timer for 20 seconds. And you tell yourself the story, if I move, someone's going to shoot me.

And so when you have an itch on your forehead, you won't itch it. And when you become aware of that itch and you start observing it, you're meditating. You're in deep meditation. Yeah, float tanks are good like that too. So you go into a float tank. Ooh, I haven't done that. Is that scary? No, it's fantastic. But when you first start and you're not used to being in complete darkness and stillness,

your fear centers will start getting overactive, but eventually they will stop. And then as a result, that's the blissful feeling that you'll get with long-term meditation as well. Yeah. It's just not reacting, Jody. That's all, that's all meditation is, is not reacting. And the longer you can not react, you'll start cultivating more and more and more of that space. Um, final thought here. Uh, thank you for 90 minutes of your time yeah um are you um contactable if the fittest man in the world's watching this uh if uh if you know some of these crossfit athletes who watch the show if they want to contact you anyone and they want to um talk

about or someone's mom's you know sick or there's a burn victim or someone has type two diabetes and they're about to lose a toe. Are you contactable? Like, are you, do people have access to you? Yeah. So I do education advocacy and consulting throughout the, throughout the world with people that are interested in learning how to use hyperbaric therapy and how to optimize protocols. I also work with people that look, that are looking to optimize their health using a foundational approach people that are looking to optimize their health using a foundational approach. The one I use is called Health Optimization Medicine. And I work with facilities all over the world as well, helping integrate hyperbaric therapy with other modalities and other practices and other practitioners as well. So I am contactable. I have a website,

it's drscottshure.com, or you can go to my Instagram if you'd like, and you can message me there, although it may take a little bit longer to get back to you that way. But the, my website is probably the best place to contact me for information. And I do work with people individually just with one, one off, just to have one time conversations. And then over, over the longer term as well, depending on the situations, for sure. That's one of the things I love to do. In fact, that's what I've kind of set up my practice to be primarily doing over the last several years. Awesome. Thank you for your time, brother. It's my pleasure. I have five pages of notes. I didn't get to any of them. Maybe we can do it

again sometime. I'm a huge fan now. Yeah. All right. Well, it's a pleasure. I hope this is helpful and gave some benefit for your listeners, uh keep up the great work man cool thank you all right bye i could have kept him on for an oh we got some penis talking yeah we got some penis talking i didn't even bring it up he brought up the penis i would have kept him on i would have tried to keep him on for another hour i have to pee I didn't even bring it up. He brought up the penis. I would have kept him on. I would have tried to keep him on for another hour after pee. I don't have a Caleb or a Susie here to – hey, that's a cool dude. He's got some great lectures on YouTube that will get you really fired up. What I didn't ask him about is I started watching a lecture yesterday where he talks about using the hyperbaric chamber with hormone therapy.

I'm guessing that was TRT. I didn't get to ask him about that. Okay. I will see you guys tomorrow at 7 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. Danielle ended up – she was at Power Monkey yesterday, and she texted me and said it was running late so we pushed it to next Sunday we'll see I'm just happy that it's still on the table clock cutter

there's a typo there cock cutter alright I'll talk to you guys later Bruce Wayne buh bye