The Sevan Podcast - #800 - Brian Chontosh | Rowing Across the Atlantic

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Support the showPartners:https://cahormones.com/ - CODE "SEVAN" FOR FREE CONSULTATIONhttps://www.paperstcoffee.com/ - THE COFFEE I DRINK!https://asrx.com/collections/the-real... - OUR TSHIRTS... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Did you look all figured out? Bam, we're live. Speaker. Brian Shantosh. A man who creates very, very, very intimate moments. Yeah, I can hear me now. I can't hear you. That's what I was thinking this morning in the shower. You're a creator of intimate moments.

Is that what you're going to call it today? I mean, shit, I was just thinking about you go out on a boat with four dudes for 33 days, intimate moments. You got this crazy past in the military bonding with these dudes, intimate moments.

You go into a conics container, run in the dark for 24 hours intimate moments you gather people for diesel days create intimate moments your dude that creates intimate moments and then people want to hear your stories and then you have to kind of like and man what a there god i was there's all these things that people say about what's the what's the most important thing in life? What's the meaning of life? And today I had this thought I had never had before that maybe the meaning of life is just creating moments that make good stories.

Because, God, you make good stories, dude. I appreciate that. It's funny you came up with that in the shower. And I like to talk all the time. Shower's my spot. Yeah. I talk about this as shared common experiences. I just like to create events that create a sensation for a shared common experience between other people and then allow the relationships to be what they're going to be.

Moments for authenticity, for vulnerability. moments for authenticity, for vulnerability. And I just find that the most rewarding relationships I have in my life are ones that start and consistently revolve around those. So you say intimate moments, it's kind of cool. By the way, that's Caleb down there. Caleb, Tosh, or Brian. You go by both. Yeah, I like Tosh.

But, you know, Dave refuses to call me Tosh. He calls me Brian. Taco refuses to call me Tosh. He calls me Brian. Taco refuses to call me Tosh. He calls me Brian. My mom. Hey, mom. She calls me Brian. So just whatever you guys want.

How many podcasts have you done since you got off the boat? Two. Oh, really? That's it? Yeah. I wanted to do a couple, and then I'm just largely like I'm good. But I think doing them soon after getting off the boat to capture the thoughts before they like dull, refine and get abused by other people talking all the time and adding shit. That way you get much more of a real thing. Right.

And I was excited when you reached out and I was like, hey, like this would be a this is a great one because I know you're a phenomenal interviewer and you get at things from a different angle and hold me accountable to what we're going to talk about. It's not that second part, but the first part is what I was thinking too. I was like, yeah, I bet you he's doing a dozen podcasts so he can kind of get the oral record down. And then as I look through your Instagram, I see that you're seriously considering writing a book. And I thought, oh, that's brilliant what he's doing. Get the oral record down somewhere so he can go back and review it. Cause shit changes, right? In your brain. Yeah. You know, I talk about this a lot. It's actually a chapter in the book. I've got it sketched out right there. Selective recollection, you know, the joke about, Hey, you know,

selective hearing, selective hearing, you know, the about hey you know selective hearing selective hearing you know the husband hears the wife when he wants to when he doesn't oh he got selective hearing and i think we do this to ourselves we have to choose to have selective recollection or selective reflection and we tend to remember the things that support where we want to think ourselves unless you have somebody else just holding you accountable like that that good motherfucker that good friend that reliable trustworthy counterpart like hey don't forget this don't forget that um i think that's important but i don't know maybe i'm just incredibly delusional and i and i and i don't mean that like in this false humility way like me i'm really open to the fact that i am but and or that being said i feel like in my life i at 50 i'm just finally giving myself the credit for shit that i really should have get gotten

credit for so that that from for myself not to the world you know what i mean like i'm finally recognizing what a good person i am whereas before i was so hard on myself for the first 49 years. Like I didn't give myself the credit that I deserved. Do you know what I mean? Which is kind of the opposite. Like my selective isn't like, I'm not like, I was always like, yeah, I caught a fish. And now finally at 50, I'm like, yeah, that motherfucker was this big. I'm comfortable saying that.

You know what I mean? Like that, it was big. And it's weird. I feel like, and I bring that up because of what you said about accountability. I think when people hear that, most times people think, oh, he's embellishing or he thinks he did more than he really did or he's he's changed the narrative he actually didn't stand up to the bully he was actually scared and the bully fell in a hole um but but for me i feel like it's kind of the opposite but i'm open if my wife has to correct me and be like no you didn't save the dog from drowning in the pool i actually did it like oh sorry you know what i mean i think it goes there's both sides to that take responsibility for what you're what you're due you know and that means taking credit and having a sense of balanced pride with the things that you did well but that's also taking taking credit responsibility for the things that you didn't do well and both they have to both live

i don't find i don't find that most people unless they spend effort and energy creating balance in those they tend to be farther one side or farther to the other. And that's where like opportunity for growth is when you're, when you're working and you're mentoring with people, it's like, Oh, this is a person that never wants to take accountability for them being all fucked up. Like there's just no self regulation there. And then there's other people that have so much humility that they don't accept responsibility. Like, no, you really did do well. You really did know you were the person that did this, that drove others to do that. And tends to be people that usually live out here without mentoring, coaching, counseling to help them be better at

doing both. Do you think you're pretty gracious at accepting compliments and thank you? And like when people thank you or tell you how much you helped them or how much you inspired them, you think you're pretty good at accepting those? No. I feel awkward. I'm getting better at it. It's actually one of the things that I have that I'm working on, and that is accepting responsibility for this or for that, or that you do have this, you have a resume, you have accomplishments, you belong here. Or when people like you're saying, it gets really weird for me when people say, oh, thank you for your service.

And it's like, oh my God, you did this, you did this. And I didn't do anything more or less than anybody else. And you don't have to thank me, but I am appreciative that you are thanking me. And I recognize that you're trying to, and then, and it just gets weird in my head and I feel uncomfortable, you know, and I don't know how to accept it appropriately other than just say, Hey, you're welcome and give you a hug or a handshake. Um, but that, but it also feels good inside at the same time that it's just like, you know, so, um, I'm, I'm just, uh, um, shooting in the, in the, in the dark here, but maybe the way to accept that is to let them know how much, how happy it makes you. Cause then like right away you're giving it back. Right. Oh my God, Tosh, thank you so much for having my husband out, uh, to the ranch for his, uh, for one of your diesel days. It completely changed his life. You know, he was suicidal.

his life you know he was suicidal and i like the hug thing too and then you hug the wife and um you're like oh my i mean what do you say oh my god the meaning of my life is to hear things like that that's kind of what i say if someone's like oh my god someone you red pilled me i fucking like i'm like oh my god that's the best thing i'm gonna hear all day but it's the truth right it's like fuck yeah glad i did that you know what i mean even though i really kind of didn't but i but i'll take it right i think that's a great way to say it um i think that's a great response to um telling somebody how that makes if you feel awkward about what to say what not to just tell them how what they're saying makes you feel and it's probably a more honest and genuine transaction of of some energy between the two of you than trying to,

especially like the fangle words, you know, some people don't articulate so well and some people articulate well today and like not tomorrow. I was in Pittsburgh, a freezing cold day, snowy day. I was, um, had a camera in my hand and i was filming at a level one and this and everyone was bundled up with like snow clothes on and you know wool caps and shit trying to listen and learn their crossfit level one shit and this dude these two dudes

walked up and one of the dudes was in board shorts and a pair of flip-flops. I don't even know what he was doing there. He showed up to the seminar late. He showed up day two. And a bunch of people knew him and greeted him and were hugging him. And that was the first time I saw you. I mean, to be honest with you, you looked like a kid back then compared to the way you look now. Now you look like a fucking sailor.

You look like a man. Yeah, that the way you look now. Now you look like a fucking sailor. You look like a man. Yeah, that's what a rough life will give you. A good rough life, I suppose. But yeah, I remember that, Siobhan. I remember that well. Where were you coming from? Why were you in Pittsburgh in board shorts and flip-flops and a t-shirt and the rest of us were bundled up? Like, where were you coming from?

Where was that? 2006? 2006, I think yeah um we just got done running the jfk 50 miler and another buddy nick horton was uh wanting to come up and do the intern thing to the level ones remember back in those days like yeah you do level one you come back and now you're level two you do another one you're level three like whatever it was and he was really excited um about hey there, there's a seminar in Pittsburgh. Why don't you guys meet me there after the, after the run? So we ran the GFK 50, jump in the car and went up there. And largely I was just

going to see Greg and Nicole. Greg wanted to put me in touch with Nicole. I had met him at a seminar six months earlier, eight months earlier. And he wanted me to get in touch with nicole i had met him at a seminar uh six months earlier eight months earlier and he wanted me to get in touch with nicole about nutrition because i was into um adventure racing and doing some ultra endurance stuff and wanted i thought i was different right like it's funny to listen to you were different you were different you were well you were different nicole didn't think so at the time she's like how you just like everybody else. Just read the fucking book. And so that's what I went up there to do. And we were so hungover.

O'Donnell and I, we were so hungover. We weren't really there for the seminar. And then I think we had lunch together. Didn't you, Greg? Probably. We all had lunch. We walked down like two blocks to this diner or something had lunch oh yeah i remember now that you say that i remember that i think uh eva claire was there

too and i remember carrie peterson was there and dave hated me for the first year so that was during my like my hazing year and i remember he sat across from me at lunch and just wouldn't like couldn't even fucking acknowledge me it was great i don't think he hates me anymore but i don't think he's like tosh's best friend either oh i get the impression he likes you when your name comes up i get the impression you like you guys have done some bonding things right we've we've grown a little bit in the last few years i really enjoy it and didn't you guys do a shooting comp together yeah we competed against each other up in um on uh wyoming in douglas the sniper adventure challenge you guys were never on a team together we were supposed to be the year

before but um it just didn't work out with schedules and he had some conflicts so he had to he had to bail out and then i secured brista to be my partner and then when he was looking for a partner i was like i already i already said yes to somebody else so he joined up with uh sensei wax who oh that's right yeah oh what's that guy's real name he has a he's a famous guy i can't remember um he's like a gracie or something one of those guys yeah yeah he's like i'm a ninja guy. Yeah. Pretty accomplished. Tosh, do you remember the first goal you ever set in your life? No. First goal I ever set in my life.

I remember – Do you remember someone introducing the idea to you of goals? I was largely belligerent and non-receptive in my younger years, I think. I had a lot of phenomenal mentors around me that I didn't really recognize and have a maturity. I was pretty emotionally immature growing up, and I didn't hear now. And it's funny because now sitting where I'm at, I'm like, man, I had all these phenomenal people. And had I just listened to what they were telling me and tried to onboard 20% of that, I would have, where would I be now? Or maybe I wouldn't be where I was, but I learned a lot of stuff the hard way. Um, growing up, making a lot of mistakes. Uh, my parents were phenomenal. The teachers in my, uh,

in my school system were great patient. Um, I mean, I had a blessed, I had a blessed childhood and I still made stupid, stupid mistakes. The coaches I had, you know, were, were wonderful. Goals though, like, I don't think I was goal driven. I was thrill seeking and in the moment living, growing up. And it wasn't until I hit the Marine Corps that I was like, okay, hey, started to get a little bit more organized. I think the discipline, you know, that forced discipline made you mature emotionally. And probably wasn't until a couple of years into my Marine Corps service that

I started thinking about goals and where do I want to be in five years and what do I want to do? And it was wanting to be a squad leader early in my tour in Iceland. And it was like, okay, cool. I'm tired of getting hazed. I'm tired of getting, you know, shit on all the time. Like I need to be a squad leader. I need to develop professionally and get myself in a position of small leadership, right?

But commensurate with where I was in age and time and service and make a change and not be that way for other people. And I was probably like 21 years old, 20, 21 years old. When you say emotionally immature, is that the equivalent of like a low emotional IQ or high emotional IQ? Are those, um, are those, um, similar? Is that the same, same word? And what are the characteristics of someone who's emotionally immature? Yeah. So, you know, if we were to take the book stuff, like emotional intelligence, right. I've been doing a lot of reading a lot about, about that and just not being selfish, thinking about others, understanding that this complex, super, super complex relationship between communication and other people's interests and other people's

wellbeing, and just not thinking about myself all the time. I guess that's redundant with selfish, but it kind of growing in that way, people skills, social skills, realizing that you weren't the epicenter of all things in the world, that you're just this satellite spinning around, able to either influence for positive or influence for negative, and just develop that way. I think I was highly intelligent in the intelligent intelligence. I guess that's the IQ stuff and not the EQ stuff, right? I did really well with grades. I was, I was mathematically inclined. And I think largely through, through high school years,

I was pretty unchallenged, you know, again, thrill seeking and things like that. So emotionally intelligent, just understanding and appreciating others to a different degree that, that others are as important as yourself. I'm not gonna say more important or less important, but I think others are just as important as yourself. And, you know, I'm refining my thoughts on that. And a form of selfishness is like being ego, like being,

being offended, being offended as a form of kind of exposes, but challenges your emotional status, right? Someone cuts you off and you get offended. How you process that or what you're aware of. You say something in one of the podcasts when you're on the boat that you had one emotional reaction. you distinguish between having a reaction versus acting and that in that on the boat um and i'm sorry if i'm if i'm uh mischaracterizing this but on the boat you had one um reaction that was that you don't go into detail what it was but i think you said that you wish you wouldn't have had it because most of the stuff you were doing you wanted to do as a leader and it to be a reaction so that it was calculated and effective at propelling the journey forward. So like a low,

emotionally immature is when you react, right? So someone flips you off in a car and next thing you know, you're flipping them off without it even like being a choice. You're just watching your hand go up. Is that? I think that's a big function or a big part of it, you know? Yeah. I remember on the boat, you know, you just, we're all, we're human, right. And, uh, when, when circumstances and energies and influence start to build, build, build, and you just reach this tipping point, you know, you're tired, you're fatigued, you're dealing with a significant ache or pain or new, new, new sense, um, tired, somebody else is doing something that's pissing you off, it's frustrating you, you're hungry, you're sunburned, whatever, like all these things

are happening. And then it's just like, bang, one more thing. It's just the straw in the camel's back. And then you just boom. And an emotionally intelligent person will be able to have more straws on their back, more straws on their back before that one straw, right? And they're calculating in their head like, okay, hey, you're feeling this right now. This isn't the response that will add value or mitigate these things, right, or dissolve these other things. And an emotionally intelligent person will be able to carry more straw. An emotionally intelligent person will be able to carry more straw. An emotional person will have a shorter and shorter and shorter lag time after they have an outburst and realize that they had an outburst and then be able to repair that with humility and apology and explanation. They'll understand the implications of their outburst or the reaction on others and what it may be doing to the situation you know a person with lower emotional intelligence it might

be three days that goes by and then they realize like oh i did this right that a person with high emotional intelligence might be almost instantaneous right you know it's interesting you say that this is way off subject here but i'll hear things about about how like psychopaths or sociopaths are the kind of people that just explode out of out of nowhere and then and then it goes away. But it's interesting because I watch my kids now and I see them going through emotions that I that I haven't had. And they have emotional seasons, right? Like like I'll see a boy cry for 20 minutes straight. And I'm like, wow, this is winter. I don't have season. I don't have seasons anymore. I have lightning strikes. You know what I mean?

I mean, they're really happy for a second, really sad, really upset, but it goes away really quickly. And I pride myself on that, that I had to work hard to make it so that, like you said, I have to use a big dose of acceptance and humility to sprinkle humility and acceptance dust on myself uh and in my default is always to say sorry and get out of it so that i can you know think clearly about it right if i if i'm not sure what's going on i know i don't want to be stuck in some storm but but it's interesting how some people see that as a psychopath or sociopath behavior and yet um being uh i don't know what the word is but be drowning or um indulging in emotion is uh debilitating it's fucking debilitating right yeah on the high and the low yeah right right exactly right exactly exactly i might even

challenge like you don't you don't get rid of it. You just process it better and package it in a more constructive way. Like having highs and having lows aren't something that you necessarily need to rush through getting over you. And it might seem like, Oh, I'm having a boom, a snap, and then I resolve it or whatever, but it's, it's not like disappeared or still things going on, but it's just given better context, reframing. It's organized and it's shaped to be constructive. And constructive either through the apology or through the negotiation of differences and hurt. But it's not just a, hey, I'm sorry, boom, we're moving on and it's all done. I would say that would be less emotionally intelligent.

Oh, I have a spike, high higher low, an apology or whatever. And then boom, boom, hands are washed and I'm done. That would be a lot lower on a scale of emotional intelligence. Whereas, okay, hey, I'm going to recoup what happened on the high or the low. And we're going to package it up and form it. And we're going to be constructive about the process because that's what's going to solve it for the next time. A person that's just, hey, oh, I'm sorry, and they move on, they're probably, I would submit, they probably have a tendency to spike high and low at greater frequencies, right? A person with high emotional intelligence can anticipate a low coming, and then they can put things in place before they hit the low in order

to mitigate the depth of that trough and mitigate the length of time spent in the trough. And there's a consciousness involved with recognizing, hey, I'm coming into a low. I need to do some things. I know I'm going to reach a low and this is what's going to happen. This is what I'm going to do to get out of it. I'm not going to rush to get back up on a high. I'm going to spend the appropriate amount of time to reconcile my impact while I was at a low. And I'm looking to even out. And the same thing on a high because we know there's a lot of backlash, right, from having a spike in a high. Just in a physical sense, when you – at the start of a race, right, adrenaline is really high, excitement, boom, boom, boom. You're feeling good. You're fresh. And it's like, oh like oh i'm way up here and then you just try to peg the needle

and then what happens is there's this backlash that you drop in performance and it's like wow a smart person will will regulate you know there's this self this auto regulation that says i'm i've got this well let me just temper a little bit in order to extend my high for a period of time. And then as I come down, it's not a big sharp drop off. It might drop off a little bit until I find some sort of steady state and I can ride that. And I used to experiment with that a lot. It was funny. It was around the time that I had met CrossFit and Greg, I was working with doing that in

the physical sense with the Marines on the obstacle course. And it was, hey, let's see how many times you can do the obstacle course in an hour. And people that came out really, really hot and I would just track times for myself or for others and for others. And you'd run the whole course in like 54 seconds. And then your next one would be 55. And then the next one would be 58. And then the next one would be 55 and then the next one would be 58 and then the next one would be a minute 10 and a minute 30 and then a minute 30 then a minute 28 and then it would kind of come back up to like 110 and you'd get x amount but then when you you paced yourself a little bit in the beginning and not a like a over pacing for the sake of pacing because you were too concerned but it was like how can i optimize this duration of expected performance and that was in the physical world but i would always draw

parallels to the psychological space as well you know and um just trying to true with relationships too tosh i do 100 do date a girl for two years your chances of success before you sleep with her chances of success are better than uh you you sleep with her, chances of success are better than, uh, you just sleep with her on the first day. And when I say sleep with her, I mean, you, you, you know, it's like eating the bag of candy early instead of like building like some sort of intellectual, emotional, physical. Yeah. That's interesting.

Um, I'm not saying that sleeping with a girl on the first date doesn't mean that people don't have 40-year marriages and 50-year marriages. Right, right, right. Like, oh, you're so eager to get all of the pleasure that the work invested into arriving at the pleasure. That's a better way to say it than sleep with her. I made it sound too crass. Yeah, you basically just – and I don't mean to say it's wrong. You're basically trying to get all the – you this flower and you cut it sniff it and turn into a perfume all in one day it's like jesus dude couldn't you left it in the yard for a week right and enjoyed it for longer and build a a very intimate appreciation across multiple avenues instead of just one the purely physical sensual sexual realm right like you're going to get that, but wouldn't it

be nice to get that and this and this and this and this? And I, you know, maybe we're just talking about wisdom too, right? Because people, if somebody told me this back when I was 18, no, you know, 30, no. And we're all on a different timeline for, for growth and maturity, but the function of wisdom of okay patience you know tactical patience with with the things that we do knowing that you're going to have a higher level of fidelity of of appreciation or or whatever right like by playing the long game right um uh how how old were you when you entered uh the marines i was 18 and and how does that work there you just go to the strip mall and walk into one of those places that's what i ended up doing

yeah i um i graduated high school and i was in some trouble and it was catching up to me and with the law or yeah cars or something yeah know, mild criminal mischief, right? Like, just recklessness and thrill-seeking and shit like that. Me too. Me too. Yeah. We,

I went to community college, played baseball for the fall, tournament ball. Baseball season was over and then it was like, well, why? I wasn't into academics

at that point and just kind of dropped out of, you know, this community college. Started working long, long days and lots of hours at the grocery store, academics at that point and just kind of dropped out of, you know, this community college. Started working long, long days and lots of hours at the grocery store, getting a car accident, have a little bit of trouble with alcohol. What did you do at the grocery store? Bagger, checker? All of it. Yeah. I loved it. It was a small mom and pop shop. I loved it too. It was great. A&G markets, the George family, they were incredible to me. You talk about phenomenal

mentors, the George family, Abe Sr., Dave, Abe, just great people that were patient and recognized you for your flaws. They model largely who I want to be as an adult today, not only for my own children, but for other people's children as an adult. And I remember I was just doing long hours at the Jewish Community Service Center. I think I had like 120 long hours at the Jewish Community Service Center. I think I had like 120 hours. Are you Jewish? No, it was just a place that accepted free labor. And I was scrubbing racquetball courts, right?

I had a little squishy and all the blue marks that you could reach from as high as you could get to bending over. And by the time you got through racquetball court one, two, three, four, it was time to go back to racquetball court one. By the time he got through racquetball court one, two, three, four, it was time to go back to racquetball court one. And six hours a day just scratching blue marks off of that thing. And the judge, Judge Steinwalks, another phenomenal guy, was like, hey, you're due for industry, basically juvenile, or military service will straighten you out. Oh, really? He gave that industry meaning jail? You had to go to an adult jail? Juvenile jail of sorts.

I mean, even though I was 18, he was going to recommend this place called industry. And that was kind of spooky. And he gave military as an option, huh? Well, I don't know if it was necessarily an option because I don't know if he legally can do that or whatever. But he put that suggestion in while we were doing somewhere along in the court process. And, you know, my father always used to, the military service, we're going to send you to the military, you know, straighten you out or whatever. And so I just had one of those days and I went into that strip mall that you talked about, went into the Air Force recruiter's office. It was like, hey, you know,

I had a buddy who was about four years my senior. He left school, graduated and joined the Air Force recruiter's office. I was like, hey, I had a buddy who was about four years my senior. He left school, graduated, and joined the Air Force. And in four years, he's married, got a house, he's got a snowmobile, he's got a car, he's got a tractor. He's living this ideal American dream that I had in my head that was imprinted on me from my upbringing. That's what you're going to do. And largely without thinking about it, it was just kind of had in my head that was imprinted on me from my upbringing, right? Like that's what you're going to do. And largely without thinking about it, you know, it was just kind of what I thought I was going to do in life. And, um, you know, he's been promoted like 40 times in four years cause he was in the air force and just doing really, really well. His family was proud of him and everything. I was like, Oh, well I'm going to join the air force. It sounds like it worked

for Lance. It's going to, it's going to work for me. And the air force recruiter, you know, I started explaining to him, I'm like, well, I'm in to join the Air Force. It sounds like it worked for Lance. It's going to work for me. And the Air Force recruiter, I started explaining to him, I'm like, well, I'm in a little bit of trouble. I've got another court date and I'm doing communities. He's like, yeah, you're not what we're interested in. No. And I was like, whoa, I've never been told that before at that point in my life. Like, no, you're not good enough. You're trouble. People told me I was a little bit trouble, but I just remember being really dejected walking out of his office. And then there was this Marine Corps recruiter. I picture him. He's about five foot eight black guy jacked in this amazing uniform, all tight creased boom. And I was walking out of the recruiter's office. He's like,

Hey, what's going on young man? And I was like, you know, I just tried joining the Air Force. The guy told me no. Fuck that guy. And really like, well, what's wrong? Come on in. Let's just talk for a minute. And for sure, he's like, well, what are you looking to do? And I remember telling him, I just want to jump out of airplanes and cruise around the woods with a gun or something, right?

Like that was just excitement. And he's like, oh, I got a job for you. Why don't you just sign here something something we talked and nine days later i'm headed to to boot camp paris island it was it was wild and it changed my life um hands down you know what was it what was it um about the marines that would accept someone like you but not the air force do you know like nah you know i i mean who knows you know you, but not the Air Force, do you know? No, you know, I mean, who knows? You know, you could say like the technical expertise.

Like they had a lot of people probably with recruiting. They didn't need to fill quotas. Marine Corps probably had to fill some more quotas. The nature of the job, you know, signing up for the infantry. Oh, I'm going to get this guy that just I can guarantee him infantry. Everybody gets infantry unless they have skill sets or things that identify them for something else. And I just- So it's a numbers game, you think? I think so, largely at that time. I think it is now, again, today with recruitment efforts being at a historical low. So, but- Do you have thoughts on that, by the way,

about recruitment efforts being at a historical low? Yeah, I think it's a function of our times. i don't think there's a lot of value at large um with military values conservative values in our country um i think some of the recent conflicts have raised a lot of questions that that the military maybe not like hey from some of the missions and this and that it's just not a value uh right now um maybe all the money they printed too people feel less. I mean, they printed, uh, I think we started, uh, 2020 with 12 trillion in circulation.

And now we have 20 trillion in circulation. I know I got a lot of checks from the government in the last two years. Yeah. Um, I didn't, I didn't even have to, I didn't apply for any of them. They just fucking,

they were pouring in when I did taxes last year. And then I'm seeing all these things in the account. Like, where did that money come from? And then it's like, I got to report this. And, but, um, So maybe that, do you think that that plays a role too? I do. I'm sorry. Um, I do.

I think the pay scales are definitely not, um, comparable in the military. I think there's opportunities, you know, um, I also think like the reality of, Oh, when I sign up to join the military, I could find myself in combat. Like, I think like the reality of, oh, when I sign up to join the military, I could find myself in combat. Like, I think that largely wasn't on the forefront of a lot of people's minds when they decided to sign. It was like, oh, I'm going to get a trade skill because I'm going to be an underwater welder. I'm going to drive big equipment or I'm going to fly an airplane or learn communications. The reality of, hey, you're signing up potentially to offer your life and service to your country.

I think our country's values are largely going through a metamorphosis, right? Like the people are just trying to figure out like what are our values as a country? There's a lot of inconsistency or diversity. Let's not say inconsistency, a lot of diversity in what our values as a nation are and our obligations to the world are. Brian, I'm just starting to become aware of my values at 50. I see myself as a pretty conscious person and I didn't even have value consciousness until I got two kids that were six and eight and I'm just like, oh shit. I think I have some values. Fatherhood does that to you, right? Yeah. It's weird. I, um, do you think about,

do you remember the first values we were talking earlier about the first time, maybe trying to remember the first goal you ever set? Do you remember the first time you started thinking about values? I mean, did you have values at 18? Did your parents talk to you about that word? I don't even know if I knew that word. Yeah, I'm sure I did. And I'm sure values were being distributed to me or influenced upon me through actions and other things, not necessarily through specific communication. You're receiving value sets. I grew up Catholic. I went to church for a lot of years and then we stopped doing the church thing. I mean, my teachers were teachers were demonstrating values, you know, work ethics, you know, my job at the grocery store. But I don't think I ever really consciously thought about value sets until I joined the Marine Corps and it was honor, courage, commitment, right?

Three core values, honor, courage, and commitment. starting to peel back what values were and what are the actions that are consistent and inconsistent with having these values and how do you onboard and invest in them inside your heart and your soul. I don't think I was short on any value statements being trying to be delivered to me implicitly growing up at all. I think I had a phenomenal set of, again, mentors and whatnot growing up. I just don't think I was receptive to them. Yeah, I had incredible mentors and role models too. So I had Sarah Sigmund's daughter on the other day. This fucking lady explained it to me.

I didn't even understand the true meaning, the value of values, but I think I do now. At least it's what I'm using today. meaning the value of values, but I think I do now, at least it's what I'm using today. You build an identity, Armenian boy, loving parents, dad's an immigrant, 13 years old. My identity was my identity as a kid, a little chubby, like girls, enjoyed when my mom put her cold hand on my forehead. That's who like, that's who I was. I had, I had a pretty strong identity, but it was all in the sort of the physical realm. And after talking with Sarah Sigmund's daughter, I realized that she's like, you can't have those forever. Right. Like as the, as a CrossFit athlete, you can't have your identity can't be rooted in like forever. And I'm, I'm a bad-ass Marine or, you know, I can put 225 over my head

five times in a row. Like it just can't be rooted in that. It's not. And so another part of your identity could be your values. She was explaining to me and I was like, holy shit. And then you stay true to those values. And I liked what you just added to that pile. You, you take those and you kind of embed them in your heart and soul. Like, it's kind of like your non-negotiables, I guess would be the term, right? Like, and, and I, and I did do stuff like that when I was 16, my mom bought me a truck and I remember telling myself that was back in the day when cars would break down. It was 1990. And I said, I just got a new truck and I'm going to pull over every time I see a car broken down

to be thankful for the fact that I got a new truck. I don't know how I came up with that, but that really inconvenienced me a lot, but I made sure I stuck to it for a year, I don't know how I came up with that. That really inconvenienced me a lot, but I made sure I stuck to it for a year. Pulled over every fucking car I saw broken down on the I. But at some point, I think I'm going to have to stand like, hey, you're going to have to choose some non-negotiable values. I always stand when someone walks in the room. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like what values I could give my kids or like. You know, that's the that's the realm that I work in now with my my personal professional practice. Right. Leadership.

And sorry, one more thing. And do you agree with that? Like values are an important part of your identity because they kind of can't be taken from you right whereas whereas like my my mile time is going to be taken from me guaranteed maybe right but but i do agree i do agree with that that the value what you build in here um i think i think early in our in our formative years right mimicking, I like how you said mimicking, is clutch. I think we are rooted more physically because there's a feedback mechanism in the physical sense of accomplishment and whatever. Not to say that it's absent with psychological feedback. You get your blue belt.

I mean, it's huge. Part of your identity. Basics, yeah. psychological feedback, but get your blue belt. I mean, it's huge. Part of your identity. Yeah. Um, but like, like when we were learning leadership, when I first went in the Marine Corps and started learning leadership, you know, it started in, um, character traits. And now where I'm at in my leadership, um, field, it's like character traits are great, but it's the very, very beginning. You know, it's like you go play baseball and you're learning how to play baseball and you're six years old and we put the ball on a tee and you're playing tee ball.

And eventually we progress into, you know, soft pitch by the coach and underhand. And then we, the coach is throwing the ball overhand. And then next thing you know, you're throwing ball over and we get into this fast pitch and now you're, but it's a progression, right? It's a matriculation. And I think what we're talking about when we start to onboard and really have these conscious thoughts of who we want to be as a human being, developing an identity, where does that come from? It's in here. It's in the heart. And I'm finding that having those conversations with people more deliberately is a great way to make better human beings, a great way to have greater satisfaction,

a really deep and meaningful satisfaction with life, a relationship with life. And I spent a lot of time with that. And really, I got into it my last tour in the Marine Corps when I was at the Naval Academy and mentoring thousands of midshipmen and going through leadership programs, professional development programs with the Navy and University of Maryland. And it's like, Hey, building a strong sense here. And, and, you know, the other part of that conversation, just to, just to riff in a different direction is okay, cool. But we're going to, what are my non-negotiables? Let me have 15

non-negotiables, right? Because there's, there's, there's, there's a hundred things that are absolutely awesome and amazing to be a beautiful human being. And you want to put them all in here, but then it gets tedious to maintain all those. How about we just pick two or three, you know, let's just pick two or three core things. We think about them, right? So, so if I canvas, if I write 20 values on the wall that I want to have, can I, can I reduce those values into some, some different things, some different variables, and then look what variable is most present across as many as we can and be strategic about picking. I'm going to circle this one,

this one, and this one. And then therefore, by collecting those three, I can actually impart a little bit of all of those 20. And so now I'm going to focus on these three. And then what is one action that I can pick that I can say, hey, no matter what, I am going to do this because I know that it is going to satisfy that. And it can be, so for example, uh, leave it better than you found. It was something that was introduced to me early in the Marine Corps, leave it better than you found it. And it started with, you go to the, you go to the rifle range and you, you shoot and your brass is falling all over. And then at the end you have police, brass call, and you're picking up brass. Inevitably, when you showed up to the range, there was already pieces of brass on the ground that through oversight or whatever didn't get picked up.

And you expended 50 cartridges. If you picked up 55, you left it better than you found it because you shot 50. You picked up five that just inadvertently were left there, right? So very, very simple in concept. You go into a classroom. I never leave pee on a toilet seat. Never. Even in a public restroom.

The most disgusting public restrooms in the world, I will not leave my pee or anyone else's pee on the toilet seat. Yeah, it's funny that you say that. I will take an attack to swipe it up. I use that as a – and people cringe, right? So let me, let me play this out with us. Cause this gets me excited that you think the same way. So leave it better than you found it. Very physical.

And like, so I've made a commitment in my life now. And how does that manifest? And what does it mean now after 30 years, right? Of what does leave it better than you found? I was introduced to it when I was 18 years old at bootcamp. And where am I at now? now well it's interactions with others you know walk into a supermarket and you're going through the checkout line you you know the individual that's working behind the checkout line what a day just scanning codes boom boom boom and people like bickering about the price of something and it rang up wrong and people in a hurry and

people largely not being polite or this or that. I make it a point like, I'm going to leave this interaction with this stranger better than I found it. How does that start? Hey, good morning. Good afternoon. Use the person's name. Look them in the eye. Hey, how are you doing today? Hey, when did you start your shift? What did you do last weekend? Do you have plans for next weekend? Happy holidays, like whatever it is. But I take the moment to create an interaction that's very human and personal with that person. And I try to leave them with a smile. It doesn't necessarily mean cracking a joke. It just means treating this person with compassion, you know, courtesy and decency. And when I leave that checkout line, I left that person better than I found him or her.

And I've created an opportunity for that to continue to the five people that are behind me in the checkout line. Right. How about with myself? You know, wake up in the morning and you make a commitment. You know what, Tosh? I'm going to leave myself today better than I found it. And when I go to bed at night, I'm like, Hey,

have a conversation. Like, what did I do today to leave me better than I found me when I woke up this morning? Whether it's on a long range growth process, or if it's just a transient mood process, wake up in a bad mood, like, okay, Hey, scan, assess, I'm in this mood. I'm going to do something today to leave me better than I found it. My relationship with Nicole, you know, my relationship with my children, like whatever it is. And it sounds like, oh, wow, it's so easy. But then I pick up this physical thing to do to help me. And it's leave it better than I found it. I could be walking down the street, right? This is how it works. I'm walking down the street and you see a wrapper on the ground. I just stop and I pick it up and put it in my pocket.

Oh, there's a trash can. Cool. Put it in, put it in the trash can. And where it starts to break down is, well, it's a hot day out and it's half a chocolate bar and it's kind of melted and I'm in a nice set of clothes. I don't want to pick that up right now. Like, oh, there's a temptation that happens. Do I, do I not? Well, do you really believe in it? How about this one? The ego one, even there's poop there. I have poop bags on me, but there's a lot of people here. And do I have the humility to bend down? And what if someone thinks it's my dog that did that poop there while I'm picking it up? And like you start, you start playing all the stories out, right? Yeah. You look for, you look for excuses to rationalize being less than the value construct that you put in your heart. And so you do it or, or that's like 10 paces to the right is a piece of trash.

And I'm walking this way and I'm in a hurry. Well, I've saw it. Do I go pick it up or do I not pick it up? Not to pick it up. Now it starts to challenge. Do you really believe in who you are or do you just believe for the sake of believing what you are? And, um, you know, we can play this out and I play it out all the way to, you know, the airport restrooms.

And inevitably I got to take a shit when I get to the airport and I don't want to. Amen, brother. Amen. Yeah. And I don't want to poop on an airplane cause it just doesn't feel right. So you're walking. You're too big. You're too big for the bathrooms. For me, it's fine. Yeah. Well, I have an aversion to those airplane toilets. So it's like, okay, hey, I'm going to poop. I walk into the bathroom, and inevitably you open up stall number one, and it's a mess.

And so then you go to stall number two, and it's locked. You go to stall number three, and it's a mess, but not as a mess as stall number one. And then there's the one – I'm still with you. This is my day. Yes, yes. Yeah. And then there's the last stall, which is ADA compliant.

It's the really, really big one. Lots of space. It's the one that you really would love to go anywhere. I can put my luggage in there. I can hang my jacket up. I'm good. Yeah. And it's clean.

Yeah. And you're like, oh, well, I'm going to use this one. And it's like, like hey you know what no no no no and so and i rationalized not using that one because do you do you park in the handicapped spot at the supermarket uh i i cannot i cannot answer i'm not going to answer not going to confirm or deny handicapped spaces supermarket there's there's 10 of them and none of them are being used. And you're like, oh, well, there's 10 of them.

The chance of the 10 people coming in to use this space, you know what? But you don't do it because you don't rate it, deserve it, and somebody else that does or needs it, and you don't want to take that space up. And so we don't park in those. I rationalize it like this, Tosh. Every single person I've ever seen park in a handicapped spot should fucking park at the other end of the parking lot. Yeah. And I don't pass judgment. Come on.

I don't mean to ruin your story. Go on. No, you're fine. I don't pass judgment. I just like, hey, that's not for me. And you don't know the story behind the story that you don't know. So you just leave it alone. But it's not for me.

I don't need the handicapped parking space. I refuse to use it. need the handicap parking space. I refuse to use it. Well, that big giant toilet, right? The shitter in the airport that's marked, you know, ADA or has the wheelchair on it, right? It's for individuals that need it. And just because it's not being used right now doesn't mean that somebody isn't going to walk in after me and need it. Oh, but I'll be quick. I'm only going to be fast. Oh, it's clean. Nope. So I automatically refuse those no matter what. And then I started to say, you know what? Like I believe in leave it better than you found it. You walk in, it's almost like playing the lottery. There's, there's

four stalls. I'm not using that one because I don't rate it. And I want somebody else that needs it to be able to use it and be accessible for them. Whether it gets used at all today or not, I don't care. Pick a door, one, two, or three. Open up door number one, and it's a mess. And it's like, I'm committed. You go in there and you tidy it up either before or after you do take care of your business, but you leave it better than you found it. You wipe the piss off the toilet seat.

You pick up the little scraps of toilet paper that are on the ground, whatever it takes. Do your thing, leave, and you wash your hands. And it's, it's not, but, but for me, I need to do that everywhere in my life for the, for the ugly things and not rather. So we have gray areas, right? I love people that we on a, on a, on a continuum left and right. It's obvious. No. And it's obvious. Yes. On the extremes. It's obvious no, and it's obvious yes on the extremes. And I work from those. And I work in, work in, work in. And what I try to do is make my actions and my beliefs consistent so that I can shrink that gray area as much as possible.

There's always going to be gray area. And that's the opportunity for us to really demonstrate who we are and what we believe in. And we all have thresholds for gray area left or gray area right. But I find that so many people, they like to live in the extremes and keep it really really easy oh there you go instagram that was my starbucks uh man i don't use ass gaskets or any paper i just i just clean it off and induce i'm surprised you're a nest builder i don't know i did that for a post because that i remember that that was in san clemente that was starbucks in san clemente and uh it was a disaster when i went into that um stall and i just cleaned it up and it was like come on man but i had somebody tell me that's not my job they pay people to do that and i'm like whether they pay people to do that

or not like if we we roll back all if you're a good human being, you don't leave your own pee on the seat or you don't shit on the toilet seat. Right. And you don't like drop a piece of paper and then not pick it up. If that was your own bathroom, would you be doing the things in there just because it's a public bathroom and somebody else gets paid to do it? You know, if you have a maid that cleans your house, does that mean you just decide that you're just going to shit all over your bathroom because they're going to clean it up? No, that's, that's, that's wrong. And so I do that. Um, pick up trash on the street, my relationships, my interactions with other people, I believe in leave it better than you found it. And by doing those things in my life, I find that I'm a better person because then when I

am faced with a challenge, the gray area to, you know, measure my actions and reactions to do these different things or have different opportunities, I'm challenged to where I can have it set up that I'm conditioned and pattern habituated to do the right thing that's consistent here instead of trying to let myself down. Right. Because inevitably, if I don't do it, I'm going to walk away and it could be three steps. It could be two hours and I'm going to regret like, Hey, I didn't do that. I wasn't consistent with what I believed in. And then I start going into this space up here. Are you really who you believe or are you just believing for the sake of who you are? And I want to be the former, right? I want to have thought so hard about the kind of person

that I want to be that I make my actions consistent with that instead of having actions and then formulate a set of beliefs based off of what's convenient, what's self-satisfying or gratifying or gives me pleasure or things like that, right? I want to develop this first and then have my actions model that instead of vice versa. So it's funny that you and I think about that the same way. You know that cashier situation. situation. I actually know a handful of people who, this is the hard part about it. You have, you go in there, you say hi to the cashier. Hi. You see that they're down. You see that they're unconscious. You see that they're in their head. You've been watching them for the last three

people that they've checked out. And then you try uh bring some joy to their uh life or or you know some intimate human interaction and they basically give you a fuck you get out of my face and and you get offended and to me if you're that person you you need to really put on the brakes and really take a deep deep look at yourself for why you're doing that. There's this whole generation of people like that. They'll reach out to you like with a text. And if you don't text them back, they get offended. Yeah.

Like, how about and they're oblivious to the fact they actually will voice it out loud. I was nice to that. That lady at Starbucks was having a bad day and I was nice to her and she was a bitch to me like yo dude dude it completely abandoned that mission if you are not ready to do that shit selflessly yep like the goal is not to the the goal is for you not for and i know it's hard i've been stumped by people hey how are you don't fucking look at me all right you know what i mean like if you're if you're doing what tosh is doing or what i'm doing if you walk around and okay and you want to try to wake people up a little bit you you will get bit that's what happens yeah i mean

you don't know you pet a dog that's not paying attention they bite you sometimes you know what i mean but you cannot take offense by it you have to learn from it because if you take offense by it you're doing some really insincere shit i I think disingenuous, insincere shit. Well, are you doing it for yourself or are you doing it for them? Right. And, and, and both can exist. I'm doing it for myself because it's a chance for me to really be challenged by what I believe in, not necessarily the satisfaction that I get from doing it. And you're trying to do it for them. And you don't ever know if that person's having the worst day of their life. Treat everybody with care and

compassion. And like, hey, if you get a response that's different than what you were hoping to get, hey, just maybe something's going on for that person that we're not aware of. But that doesn't mean that you're not still obligated to doing and holding what you have true in your heart still, just because you didn't get the response, the reaction, the feedback that you were hoping to get. It doesn't mean that you didn't even have a little bit of impact because that person might just, you never know, you could leave that interaction and an hour later, that person being like, oh man, like, cause I've done it. I haven't had the perfect response to somebody in the past. And then a half an hour goes by or, or, or whatever, some term.

And I'm like, man, I really, man, Tosh, you were so like caught up. You were in your own head, this or that. And then you didn't really treat that person very, I've actually gone back. I've actually gotten in a car and driven away just to turn around and go back and apologize or to, to make amends if possible, you know, like, Hey, I'm really sorry. I didn't receive you correctly. I had this going on and this going on. And I just, I just wanted to let you know that it hit me after I got in the car and I wanted to come back and just, and just say, Hey, I'm sorry. You know, to my wife every day.

Yeah. We should be, I need to do it more often. We all need to do that. I'm'm not even joking every day i feel like there's one point where like we get off the phone and i call back and i'll be like hey sorry i'm not present i you deserve better yeah what's cool too is oh i um i'm not one of those people either that i i don't think if someone if someone keeps doing the same thing to you over and over and they keep saying, sorry, there's this, there's these people who'll be like,

Hey, you say sorry every time. Hey man, they're trying quitting smoking. Took me fucking 300 tries. Like acknowledgement is the first step. I don't think you should poopoo someone if they keep fucking up. If they,

if they can acknowledge it. Yeah. But I mean, everything's got to have a limit, right? Like I've responded to people and I give them the feel like you keep saying you're sorry. Like, are you? Because if you were sorry, even though you're still making mistakes, I get it. We're on a growth trajectory and it's okay to keep making the mistakes, but I would see

some little bit of improvement or I would see some effort to try to make the change or to implement an action to communicate that you're sorry through actions, you know what I mean, instead of just words. Because you're verbalizing that you're sorry, but your actions are inconsistent with you genuinely being sorry. And it's okay. Right. But I'm going to give you that feedback because I don't want to hear that you're sorry over and over and over again. Like, okay, maybe you are, but I'm not feeling it you that feedback because I don't want to hear you're sorry over and over and over again. Okay, maybe you are, but I'm not feeling it because you keep doing this. And I'm not seeing even the tiniest of a skosh of improvement or effort through your actions to make an amend to grow further.

Because we let people off with I'm sorry too frequently. Just because I say I'm sorry and I am sorry doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of obligation then to make it right. It's just not I'm sorry, I forgive and forget. That's not it at all. What can we do so that we can stop being in this pattern? Yeah. But it's like I'm sorry almost is just a word like you say,

hey, Siobhan, how are you doing today? Oh, I'm great, man. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, I'm sorry. Almost. It's just a word. Like you say, Hey, Siobhan, how you doing today? Oh, I'm great, man. Thanks. Well, we, we, we've kind of been habituated. Oh yeah. Hey, I'm great. Or I'm good. Are you really like, how many times have you ever when somebody said, Hey, good morning, Siobhan, like, how you doing today? Well, you know, I'm okay. You know, I don't want to burden you with all my shit, but like, Hey, I'm just okay today, but we don't really tend to do that. I'm suicidal. Okay. Then now, now we got to invest a little bit more time in this conversation relationship, right? Like if somebody goes there, but are we honest with what we're saying? And so many times we just say these things and we're either because we're not aware that we're saying them because we just say them so quickly.

I'm sorry is one of them. I love you. Right. Or, or just the word love. I have, I have quickly. I'm sorry is one of them. I love you. Or just the word love. I have words. I reserve words. I really, really like Pabst Blue Ribbon. I really, really, really like steak. I really, really like going for long runs. I really like hot dogs. I love my wife. I love my children. But if I'm saying, oh, I love running. Oh, I love Pabst Blue Ribbon. Oh, I love hot dogs. If I'm using the word love all of the time,

when I tell my wife, I love her. Am I just some, at some subconscious level, is she just thinking, oh, I'm just, I'm just as good as a hot dog. He loves hot dogs. You're talking my language. I'm just this. And whether she's aware of it or not. So I want to be very, very careful with certain words, right? Hate, love, you know, I'm sorry. These phrases that need to be protected and reserved so that when you do say them, they actually have value and meaning because you don't know what the implications are. I could tell this person in the same conversation that I love hot dogs and I love you. And if that person doesn't have an affinity for hot dogs to the degree that

I do, maybe they actually despise hot dogs. I've just associated them with hot dogs in their mind and the way that they're interpreting it. And whether they're aware of it or not, or whether they have an intelligence level to be able to discern between the two, I'm still adding some question like, wow, does that person really love me the way that I believe the word love means? You know? So I, I reserve words all the time. Um, and I won't say him, I don't believe in using the word suffer. I don't love it. Like using the word hate, you just, you have to protect those words. Um, at least I do. I'm weird. I'm weird in the head oh no no it's important it's important these are this is all this all adds value uh to a human being's life all we have is relativity

in context it's all we it's all we have i mean um when i after i saw you in pittsburgh um i was told that there was a movie about you, and I bought the DVD. That's how long ago that was, and it was a two-hour documentary that I watched about you. And it's pretty wild. Did you like that they made that movie about you? I mean, it painted you in a great light. I think it did. I don't think it was about me as much as it was I was a main character in a movie about the men that I served with in the circumstances that I served.

I accept that I was a main character for sure. I think there were some good things. There was a lot of good things about it that feed an ego right right um yeah it was a fun it was it was as horrific as it was it was a fun movie i enjoyed it but you know i i looked at that and i say okay cool that's who i was at this point in time and i was good at a lot of things i was great at a couple things and i was deficient in a host of things at that point in time and look at that it as just a datum point for, I think it was like 16 years ago, 15 years ago, maybe. It feels like it was 40 years ago, to be honest with you. It feels like

forever ago. I feel like it was 40 for sure. It's like, okay, hey, how far have I come since then? You know, when you look at those things of who you were in the past, like I can either be shackled to that event horizon and still that person or what, what changes have I made and what were the good things that I continue to leverage in my life today? And what are the things that I have room for improvement on? Have I made improvement? And if I haven't made improvement, well, why not? You know, or if I have made improvement, is it having the impact and the effect that the desire to improve upon, um, is actually being realized. Um, but yeah, that was, uh, you know, those were hard times. I mean, we were, we were at war doing, doing horrific things with, uh, with the thoughts that we were doing our country's, uh, desires. And that was our

obligation as a military force. Right. But, right but um yeah it brings back a lot of memories good bad um and otherwise just neutral right uh the the uh navy cross i'm reading from wikipedia okay the navy cross is the united states naval service second highest military decoration awarded for sailors and marines who distinguish themselves for extraordinary heroism and combat with armed enemy force. So it's the second highest award you can get, and you can only get it if you were involved in some sort of relationship with the enemy, which I have to assume is always combat. Was that crazy

when you got that award, the Navy cross? Yeah. Um, or, and I'm open, like if I know it's like you said, it's been 15 years and it has your feelings about it changed over the years. I've learned to accept it in different ways that are more positive for this internal growth than for the – I'll tell you, I was largely immature compared to where I'm at now, right? There was a thing that – God, you were handsome as a young man. Look at you. Holy shit. Yeah, I wish I would have had that look still.

Fucking woman trap. I've grown a lot, right? I think, you know, you receive that award, you receive that attention, the pressures, the expectations, you know, the attention with it. It did affect me. Affected me and I could leverage it for good, but also for self-purpose, right? Like the ego. It's a crazy thing, the ego. And it wasn't until a few years afterwards with, again, some great people in my life, like,

hey, that's something that you did. It adds to who you are, but don't be stuck on that forever. Don't continue to just now, oh, well, let's leverage this award for continued personal recognition and for opportunity for yourself and use that award as something that was given because you demonstrated a certain set of things. Let's hold on to those, but then let's also refine its application of those things given the new context that you're serving or how you're growing or whatnot. context that you're serving or or how you're growing or or whatnot and so it did have a positive and a negative effect on me that you can only see now looking back after so many years

you know are there are there when you receive that much attention in that kind of a order they're like phases like you're happy then maybe like you're embarrassed then maybe like you learn to accept it then maybe you're honored or it, does it go like that? I mean, it's a pretty crazy, uh, accolade. Yeah, I think so. Um, I don't, I don't know the exact sequence of them, but for sure, I definitely can sit here and say, I felt all of those things. Um, I've learned to accept them in different ways and more mature ways now too, right?

Like accepting responsibility that you were a leader and you demonstrated these things in order to organize and empower your men to be better and saved lives and did things. But I mean, the context of earning an award like that, you did some pretty horrific things, you know, you did some ugly things to other human beings and there's an element of luck involved, you know, and you just don't like, I refuse to sit here and like you won't find that I advertise, you know,

like, like so many other people, we don't need to mention any names or call anybody out or you can, I suppose, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sit here and tell everybody every day. It's not on my webpage. It's not on this or that. And it's like, Hey, promoting, I have the Navy cross. I have the Navy cross. Therefore I am qualified and exceptional in all these other areas, all these other periods of time, just because I have that. It's like, okay, cool. I have it. I don't need to draw attention to it. I'm not going to leverage it for personal gain, professional gain. But I do accept that I had these skills, these traits, these characteristics,

whatever they are, that allowed me to face an opportunity with success and then be recognized for that success. And then what were those skills, traits, right? Actions, beliefs that allow me to be successful today instead of just, I don't walk around with, I don't, you're not going to see my license plate. It doesn't have a Navy cross on my license plate. You know, how many times people say, Oh, you should get combat veteran license plate with a Navy cross on it. And it should say Tosh and get this vanity plate. Like I'm not interested. You know it's something that I did.

It's who I was in somebody that I was that I leveraged to be better today instead of being stuck 15 years ago, 20 years ago. And I'm going to be presumptuous and say that you didn't take the actions you took to win the Navy cross. Like when you, like you catch a pass and run into the end zone to get seven points, you didn't join the Marine Corps. I'm guessing and get put asked to be put in a situation where you could try to win the Navy cross. It's not like that. It's not football. It's not like, hey, put me in, coach, and let me get the winning touchdown, right? Yeah, I will say sort of. Sort of? Growing through the Marine Corps

infantry community I'm talking about now, right? My phase, you train, you train, you train, you train. There was a large period of time in my early career that it was like, hey, I can't wait for the opportunity to put all my training to the test, right? I want to have an opportunity to face an enemy in conflict and put my training to work for a greater good for my country. But also, you know, I'd be a lying coward if I didn't say there was some sort of like, man, I would love the opportunity to shine in battle and be recognized and be awarded, right? Like, I mean, the military, just by passing out those awards, tries to do that for the psychological impact of getting men to do the extraordinary things. Because that's how you win, right? So I have to accept that.

Over the years, that's been nurtured to be much more wise. Like I don't, I talk all the time. And even when I was still in, you talk to these guys, I can't wait to go back to Iraq and do this. And I'm like, nah, I know the stuff that we experienced. I don't ever want to do that again. I'm ready to do it again. I will do it again, but I'm not seeking to do it. Right. Like I'm not looking to, and there was a time when I signed up, like, I want to go to Fallujah now, you know, because I'm, I'm thrill seeking, actually. I also believe that I'm talented and capable and competent. That's been proven through OF1 and SASO operations to follow. Am I one of the best guys for the job to command in Fallujah? Yes. Like, so I'm seeking to go back to Fallujah. And then you go back and you're really really successful again and that just feeds

that go to another duty station that i'm trying with all my might to figure out a way to get to afghanistan to do it again and then to get back to iraq and do it again and it's like at a certain point you let you sort of let it go and like hey you know what like i'm not looking to do that i'm not looking to immerse myself in the horrors in the uglies for thrill seeking and for some self-accomplishment because i know what happens there and it's ugly until you experience it you know be careful what you wish for you know men and women that haven't seen combat they always look for combat but then once they've experienced it, they may, depending on their experience, look for it again, or they might be like, you know what? I don't want to do that again. I absolutely, to do everything not to do it again, or hey, I'm ready to do it again. I'm not seeking it out. You know, you had Marines die under my command where I failed to keep them alive and my

responsibility to their family, and it hurts. And I don to keep them alive and my responsibility to their family. And it hurts. And I don't shy away from having the responsibility to bring them, you know, to be successful again, but I'm not going to seek that out. You know, like the things that you had to do to an enemy that there's no self-satisfaction for doing the things that you've done to another human being in order to keep your men alive. Like there's no sense of pride and macho, like, yeah, I did this to this and I did this and I did this. And like, that doesn't make me feel good. And I think that's healthy. And even after being out for so long, now how many people, you know, they get out of the Marine Corps, they spend four years, six years or whatever. Next thing you know, some other thing comes up, you know, the refugee crisis

in Afghanistan, not this, well, let's just use this Ukraine thing. It's like, okay, you've been out of the military for 10 years, and all of a sudden you're going to go back, and you want to go back and fight against an enemy in the Ukraine. Why? Well, it's what the Russians are doing. It's wrong. I'm like, well, okay, maybe. Maybe you're so stricken by the value set, but if you are, then you should be able to articulate and explain what's going on in a greater, you know, geopolitical sense also, right. And how it's so, so bad. And if you can't, then maybe I would start to question

your motives for wanting to go back there. Right. It's like, yeah, I'm not jumping on a plane to go, go to the Ukraine to shoot Russians and kill. I had a buddy ask me, he's like, Hey, would you go to the Ukraine and kill some Russians? It's like, no, I don't ever want to do that. You know, I, I, I have zero desire. I have zero, like these little dreams or fantasies in my, my waking life right now. I don't know you that good Tosh, but I would never ask you that. Isn't that, it's weird to me that maybe, I mean, I mean, like I said, I don't know you that well Isn't that, it's weird to me that maybe, I mean, I mean, like I said, I don't know you that well.

No, I don't. But, but, but I could, I could tell that, that that's probably not the quite, unless it, maybe it was a rhetorical question. I just can't see someone ask it. Like I, I can just look on your social media and see that you're in a different phase. Yeah. You're not in that phase. But you know, you could ask, I've been asked, you know, like, Hey sir, would you, would you, you know, get a bunch of go, I want to go do this again. I was like, Hey man, those

heydays are over. Let the, let the people there that are in it. Like, why, why do you want to do that? It's, it's thrill seeking. It's, it's whatever it is. It's maybe a dissatisfaction with your life today, whatever it is, but I don't want to do any of that for, for those reasons. And the boating thing supplements that, do you think the running in the i mean i know it's pretty uh low-hanging 50 cent psychology stuff but do you think the ultra marathon running the conics container running the um do you think all of this is to mitigate or to help you process what you went through over there this whole rowing across the ocean? I do in a small part. I mean, and there's other reasons, right?

Right, right, right. There's for adventure, but you know, it's, it's a small part of it. I know that I compensated, overcompensated, self-medicated with fitness and adventure after, after these events, after OIF, after Fallujah, like, how does that work? What does that work? Like you, you want to give yourself, are you trying to punish yourself or is it, you're trying to feel those highs again? Or why, why do people do that? Both. Um, and then also, you know, as I've grown to explore thresholds,

you know, straight CrossFit stuff, right? Like continually push your margins out and explore unknown, unknowables and how you're going to respond and build skills to make yourself more robust, right? It's that whole model that Greg came up with, exposing yourself to all this stuff outside of your margins and you build your margins, build your margins. I believe in all of that. And so, yes, there was thrill-seeking, there was highs and lows, there was guilt, but there was also a seat. And medicated with, medicated with a difficult tasks, difficult tasks. And largely it was ultra endurance events. And then I learned to really like, yeah, I really like this stuff. You know, I'm learning about myself. I love being in small teams. You know, I like exploring. I like

the outdoors. I like the mountain biking and kayaking and, you know, whitewater swimming. And I like all of that stuff. It's fun and it's enjoyable. And I'm learning things too. I'm learning a lot about relationships. I'm learning how to interact with people when they're on their highs and their lows. I'm learning teamwork. I'm learning all kinds of things.

And that stuff excites me. Leadership genuinely excites me. all kinds of things. And that stuff excites me. Leadership genuinely excites me. Other people, helping other people be better than themselves, who they are today. Like that genuinely excites me. And that's why I keep doing, doing these things. You know, there's this Taoist saying in the Tao Te Ching, stop thinking and all your problems will go away yeah and um i i guess there's this i had this guy on the other day um uh craig harrison uh he has a book called the longest kill he's from the uk he was a sniper and the audiobook is absolutely and i just can't even believe it's fucking real i mean basically he just sat out there in different places and he did 12 years of just cleaning up dead bodies basically and then finally became a sniper and just so many

fucking people died under his watch right and um and then he was also blown up by an ied and so he has some serious issues there and he's very open about it are you familiar with him i've heard some stories and stuff yep okay um cool guy mellow right honest upfront authentic just chill uh super heavily medicated right um but but big handsome dude still still works out every morning um how do people push through to the other side of this right you have to can you do do can military guys can people who do stuff um that hurts other human beings ever accept it or do you have to take it to your grave grave like can you ever like i mean um the average person has trouble accepting anything, right? Like fucking anything.

I've reconciled a lot of the stuff I've done. Um, yeah. I'm not going to say that. What's reconciled about it? What's that mean? Accepting it. Like, okay. Hey, does it make me a bad person?

No. Have I done bad things? Yes. Um, am I growing from it? Do, uh, yeah, I've done horrific things and I've asked and commanded other people to do horrific things that are going to affect them for the rest of their lives. And I don't ever want to forget it. I want to package it up into a right context so that I can process it more healthy, healthfully, healthily, whatever it is, and learn to be okay with knowing that I have

it. I can never take that away from my past. And I want to make decisions to be able to use that experience to be better. And it's like, how do you, I'm not going to chest thump and, oh, I did this and I did this. And now I'm so, so proud of that. Like, I'm not proud of any of those things. I'm proud of how I acted in the circumstances. Right. And I always acted with honor and to the best of my ability with the situation, the energies that were present in the moment. And now that I'm outside of the moment, well removed from it with, with time, you know, you can go back and live, you can second guess, you can doubt, but largely you're not experiencing anything in the

moment to be able to reflect back and, and think that, oh, I should have done this or should have done that. And I just rest with, Hey, given the circumstances and the energies, the confusion, all of that, did I genuinely try with the greatest and purest of intent to do the best that I could? And it's like, yes. Did you come up with that on your own or does someone help you understand it that way? That was beautifully said. I'm sure people have helped me. I'm sure that I've been influenced through with conversations, um, by people that have helped me arrive at this place. Um, I don't want to forget. Uh, I don't want to medicate to

the degree that I don't remember. Right. Like, so when you go back to like this fitness stuff, like, yeah, you're having a hard time, you're, you're wrestling, you're struggling, right. Because some other things are influencing you and it's, it's putting your mood or your ability your ability to process and resource strength to be okay with something. And you're just really largely having a really, really bad day. I go work out. I go work out and I just try to punish myself a little bit through a little bit of pain, a little bit of discomfort, some sweat. mind gets off of that task and the hormones that are released through that physical activity helps get you back into a better place, potentially a high. And then when you're done with it, you find that you feel better and now you're able to reframe what you were thinking about into better and more healthy context. And so I do that. And I think I was over-medicating with fitness for a lot of years because it was just like, Hey, you're struggling and you don't want to struggle or you don't even, it's like, you're struggling in the back here someplace. And it's taking personal

resources to just manage that. And it's sometimes you're managing it until you can't because those personal resources are expended in other areas. Stress, relationship stress, job stress, whatever, whatever stress is just bad mood, bad diet, who knows. And one really, a tool that I found that helped me get back and you get that high, you get that positive effect is through working out. And the longer it was, the harder it was, the better, the more you lived in this, this state of high or near euphoria right from it and so and you don't have to think about your it's it's the uh stop thinking and your problems go away right yeah well which is a which is an escapist mentality also and that's what i've

learned to arrive at is you can't always do that just to escape because you only escape for a period of time you know um You have to spend time processing and working through it and feeling a little bit of that psychological discomfort for those things. You can't always just run to the refrigerator and grab a box of chocolate or grab another beer and just do that to forget and escape it. I've learned to use these things strategically to increase my resources and capability to manage and process it in a healthy way. Right. And I find largely like I won't medicate because it denies you the ability, or at least for me, the ability to process it. And I know that that's immature maybe because, you know, medication can do the same things, right?

But I feel like we're over-medicated as a veteran community to help manage because we largely don't have the skills or the time or the resources to help all the veterans that are struggling with different things in ways that are effective to help them because human beings are so complex and so diverse in the way that they work, you know, different people need different things. And that's what I do with the Big Fish Foundation, you know, with the nonprofit that we started for veterans was to offer how I process things to people. And if that works for you, then let's find out ways to leverage that for yourself. And if the way that I process doesn't work for

you, okay, cool. No problem. Let's find somebody else with a different way of processing so that they can, they can then help you. Um, but I offer a, in this, in this big, this big pool of people that want to help veterans, I offer a small skillset in the way that I think and process that many people, it will resonate with and be effective for, and many people that won't, but at least it's another, another slice of this pie instead of thinking I have the answer for everybody, because nobody has the answer for everybody. I have sets of answers and ways of thinking for, for many people. And if they can draw a skill from the way that I do things to make their lives and the lives of their families better, then that's what I want to continue to do. And that's what we're doing with the foundation is using Tosh's priorities for thinking and getting better and getting healthy the way that I want to package them up. And you either choose to be part of that or you don't, you know, and that's fine, but it's an offering. And the Big Fish Foundation in itself is more medication for Brian Shantosh.

A hundred percent. I would, I will never say that like doing this has given me a sense of purpose and it is helping me. It is absolutely helping me. It is selfish in that regard. And the paradox is that it's selfless. And it is selfless. Yeah. You're helping other people.

That goes to that philosophical question, right? It's a chicken or the egg type thing. But if I do a good deed because I believe in doing a good deed, and then I get the feedback, and it makes me feel good for doing a good deed, so then I do another good deed. And then I get the feedback to do another good deed. Well, at a certain point, are you doing a good deed because you believe in doing the good deed or are you doing the good deed

because it's giving you positive feedback and making you feel better? It doesn't, and you know what? It doesn't matter because good deeds are getting done. You'll find the truth out when the lady at the check stand doesn't give you the feedback you want and you now hate her.

I hate the strong word, Simon. Well, I literally know someone. I heard this story. A friend of mine who I love dearly, another strong word, who's been huge in my life. We both had a mutual friend who we thought might be suicidal. And we reached out to this person and then like several years later we were we were talking and they're like hey i'm upset with um you know john and i go why are you set with john and they're like because i i thought

john was suicidal and i reached out to him like oh shit i thought john might be suicidal too and reached out to him and they're like but john didn't give me the response I wanted. So now I don't like John. I'm like, yo, motherfucker. You just told me you reached out to John because you thought he was suicidal. And John didn't respond to you. And now you're angry at John. I'm like, did you hear what you just said? Yeah. It's crazy, right?

Right, right. So I guess that's kind of the litmus test, right? And I love this person dearly i'm glad that they were they they told me that you know like no judgment but you got to fix that that's like you uh don't don't say that out loud go into the closet close the door and punch yourself in the stomach have a talk with yourself you need to ass kicking like you you got a idiot well emotional intelligence right like so emotional intelligence back to that a little bit like i would process like john didn't respond the way that i wanted him to right for

every finger that you point outwards i use this it's my checking in with the left hand stuff that i deliver and um it's largely we use diesel days to to deliver this and it's it's it's really a beautiful growth thing for all these other reasons. And it masquerades as a physical event. But every time you point your finger back at somebody, three of them are pointing back at you. So John didn't respond the way that I wanted him to. Well, if I flip this over, I can invent three other things that I have more responsibility. Instead of just pointing at John, I don't have responsibility for that. Like, let's accept some responsibility.

Maybe I just didn't deliver it in a way that John could receive it. Okay. Maybe my tactics and my timing were off in the delivery. Maybe John just wasn't in a place to receive it at the right time. And he had something else going on. Maybe John's dead already. Maybe John killed himself and got there too late. Well, maybe John is already in this weird dysfunctional place that he struggles to receive these things. Otherwise, he wouldn't be suicidal if he wasn't dysfunctional. So for me to implicate John as the sole owner of the responsibility for me trying to do good to him, and now I take insult, maybe I just recognize like I'm in a better place cognitively to recognize this, and he's not. He's in this dysfunctional place.

this and he's not, he's in this dysfunctional place. When I run into John at the checkout counter and I don't get the response wanted, the next time I'm at Safeway and I'm looking at the registers and there's a line, there's 10 people in this line and there's two people on that line and Susie's in the line with two people, it's a checkout lady and John's in the line with 10 people, guess which line I choose to go in? I go in John's line because now I have another opportunity to try a different tactic and i'm afforded a different time right where he might be in a different place and then i engage again and and i'll and this is this isn't coming from some made-up place like there is a guy at the safeway on arapahoe here in boulder who i largely like this guy is like what is wrong with

him and i made it a personal like mission i am going to crack this guy is like, what is wrong with him? And I made it a personal mission. I am going to crack this guy somehow. Somehow I'm going to crack him. And it took a long, I'm not going to sit here and indulge myself and say years, like that's embellishing, right? But it took many, many, many visits until I finally have now a relationship with John and I'm getting the response that I would hope to, because now I found the right technique to deliver and engage. And then I've built up a rapport and credibility with somebody who maybe he's just a little bit more standoffish, or maybe he's got some disability, which he does. And I wasn't aware of, right? He's challenged a little bit here. And I finally found a way to

connect with him. And he's more of a guy that's just not trusting and this and that. And now I've worked my way through, you know, repetitions, rep after rep after rep to build and find the appropriate technique. Sounds like CrossFit again, right? Right. Right. To, to engage with this guy so that I can have the positive effect that I was looking for. Right. It's, we're so, we're so impact oriented as a society today. This person has this impact on me. This person's having this impact on me. I'm not getting the results from the impact that I, instead of being intent-oriented, and I'm not saying that we should be intent-oriented over impact-oriented. There should be some balance. When I find that I'm insulted,

I go through a check-in process. Well, why am I insulted? This person had this impact on me. Well, why? What's going on for me? Was it something that they did? Was it my something that I have going on for me? And then I check in and I say, well, what was their intent? Their intent was to do this. And maybe they just used the wrong words or it was the wrong timing, or maybe it was the wrong just tone or body language. And I just was, I was just like averse to them in a moment. Right. But what was their intent? Give person credit for their intent, just as much as you, you know, give, give yourself insult for their impact. And I found that I'm so much more effective across influencing other people and influencing myself to be better and stronger when I look at those two things as a relationship instead of at odds with each other. Technique and intensity, CrossFit,

they're not at odds. They work together. And it needs to be the combination and the appropriate application of both to arrive yourself at your intended results or goals. And so impact and intent, impact and intent are, are exactly the same thing as intensity and technique, not being at odds. And that's why I love CrossFit so much. The methodology that Greg developed, designed was, was the first to communicate in, in such terms to the world and the fitness industry applies so succinctly to me living in this leadership space and wanting to be a good human being and adding positive energy to the world. And it's marvelous. I'm getting dorked out right now. I'm so excited about it. But that's largely the part of CrossFit that people don't get because it's all,

it's just a workout regimen. No, it's not. It's, it's add so much value to your life for so many other reasons that maybe you can't connect the dots, but just push the, I believe button. You will be a better person in so many different areas of your life by doing CrossFit. Right. I believe that. Tosh, going back to, uh, So Tosh, going back to a Brian Shantosh book, a bunch of questions here. Would it about his childhood all the way to the present day, right? To his massive amounts of PTSD that he has. Just he lives – he's living a nightmare. And then I interviewed him two years since the book and things have gotten significantly better. He's managing it better.

But it's an incredible fun read. Like I listened to the audio book and I didn't want it to end. It was like an adventure, right? He went AWOL, went to the French Foreign Legion. You hear about his first girlfriend. You hear about how he was a bouncer. It's a fun adventure, right? It feels like you're reading kind of like a James Bond novel.

Do you have thoughts of your book? I do. Can you give me any ideas of what it would be like? Yeah. People have been asking me to write a book for a long time, long time. If I started a book with, um, TJ Murphy, uh, like 2015 or so. And it just sort of fizzled the, maybe even before that. And that was like the owner, that was the owner of like the second or third CrossFit gym ever. Is that the guy, the guy who's the cop on the East coast? I don't know if I ever met him. Is he black guy? No, no, no. He helped. Um, I think he ghost wrote McKenzie's book. I think he helped with one of Kelly Starrett's first books.

Okay. Okay. CrossFitter guy. Um, but you know, and we started it twice after a breakup, um, not a breakup, but like a break because of circumstances. And people are like, oh, write a book, write a book. And yeah, hey, no, I don't want to write a book that talks about exploits during war. I don't want it to be a blow myself book where I just want to embellish who I am and just feed an ego. I want to write a book that actually is sharing what I think, how I think with people so that they can onboard pieces of that and put it, the puzzle pieces together, how they want to fit. Like it's not a puzzle that has to go together one way. I want to communicate puzzle pieces so that people can put them in the shit

and throw puzzle pieces away if they want to, or duplicate puzzle pieces to make it fit their own, right? Just internally assimilate for their own benefit, given the spaces they are. It's not going to be an autobiography. It's not going to be a walk the dog from birth to where I'm at today. It's largely going to be just that, like thoughts, theories, you know, on how I think and why I do what I do. Let me just, why can't it be both? I'm being a little selfish here, but why can't it just, why can't it be both? I'm being a little selfish here, but why can't it be both?

It will be a little bit of some vignettes in order. And the only reason I would share certain vignettes would be to give context and understanding of how the growth or where the growth or why the growth occurred to where it's at. growth or why the growth occurred to where it's at or why the thought process started to develop and how it accumulated to arrive at where it's at today. And so there will be some storytelling in there, in examples, you know, largely a lot from this row, a lot of adventuring, ultra endurance events, events that I've created for myself to put myself through challenges and military experience. But it's not going to be a book that is a, hey, look at me. I'm giving myself a blowjob so everybody else can give me blowjobs too. I do not want it to be that. And largely, there are also things that I just don't want to share. I don't feel like sharing You know, I don't feel like sharing certain things with a whole ton of people is important, right?

And I want to be very selective about what I share and why I share it instead of just sharing for attention and sharing for recognition or credibility. I need to share to be able to make greater meaning of the things that I am communicating, you know, the way I think and my thought processes. So, um, and I, and it's largely going to come around this thing called winning, teasing, teasing a couple of different ideas, but it's like, Hey, what is winning? And what are things that make up somebody that is a winner or somebody that's not a winner? And how do we measure success? And what are the, what do we do? And how do we, how do we package up success and use that as a stepping stone for future success? And that's what the book is going to be about. So if on one extreme there was a book that could be turned into a movie and on the other extreme there was a self-help book, it's more towards the self-help?

100%. help? A hundred percent. I would say it's, I don't know, pick a number. It's probably 70% more self-help than 30% movie stories or, or, or like, um, adventure tales. Um, I, I, I think from talking to men like you that I know that you, I think it's good to, if you have a co-writer and I think that you should consider both, I think you should consider moving the needle more towards storytelling so that it's 50, 50, just my, my personal opinion. I didn't, I never took, I think you guys are too hard on each other and judge each other too harshly. I never took the Craig Harrison book like he was blowing himself, even though it's a fucking very, it's like you said, it's a walk. I walked the dog from birth to death. That was, by the way, that's a great, I've never heard that before. That's

I can love that. The part where you say you don't want to share that part really resonates with me or hits me because i saw that in a post that you made in about um what what happens in vegas stays in vegas and because you live such an intense life and because you build um like we started talking about in the beginning of the podcast uh you're a man who builds intimate moments you have a lot of that and it's kind of it's kind of it's weird dude because that's the stuff we want to hear right like i like we want to hear about when you drop the soap in prison you know i mean that that's the story like every time someone goes prison like did you ever drop the soap yeah we want

everyone wants to hear about the shower scenes and yet those and we know that there were there had to have been the most crazy fucking psychedelic moments on that fucking boat with four other dudes, especially two dudes you didn't even know. It must have just been – I mean you really are – in a life or death situation, I mean you're fighting the greatest force on the planet. This fucking puddle of water that makes up 70% of our planet. It's nuts. And then the same with war right you're going out there and it's you and a group of guys against another group of guys and you're not playing laser tag you're playing fucking for keeps playing for keeps yeah it's uh what happens in vegas stays in vegas and not because i'm trying to avoid some of the nefarious things

that happen in vegas right like that's not it at all. It's, it's more like you're, you're, uh, suggesting the intimacy, right? Like I've shared. Well, I took it as, let me say this real quick. I took it as that you don't want to betray your comrades. That's a, that's a big part of it. Um, that's the way it reads when I, the few times I've seen it spread out throughout your, uh, your Instagram posts about just different subjects. You just don't want to betray anyone. Yeah, no, that, that's a big part of it, you know, or, or a decent part of it. It's, you know, like you share this moment, this very, very intense moment with somebody or a group of people. It's like, that's, that's it. Like to share it with a large part of the world is to,

I don't want to say take away some of that magic, but it's like, yeah, I shared these certain things, whether it was in Fallujah or whether it was on a boat or whatever it was, I shared these very personal, intimate moments with the people in an audience that that's just who it's going to be. And through storytelling, you'll pick and choose those moments or the degree of depth that you choose to explore certain moments with a delicacy and a courtesy in order to preserve some of that stuff. You're not sitting at the dinner table with 30 people at an event and tell everybody what happens behind closed doors in the bedroom with you and your wife. You don't. Great example. But you might share like, oh, hey, it was a great intimate moment. And we really connected and I was filled with pleasure, but like,

you're not going into a lot of the specifics. You're just sharing just enough so that somebody can be able to relate to come to your wedding. They don't get a fucking, uh, access to your security cam in your bedroom. Right. Exactly. And, uh, that's what I want it to be, you know, um, for all those reasons that everybody already understands without beating it to death. But it is what makes a good story, right? I mean, that's the I mean, that that I hate to be so crass, but that's why porn is the number one. Most it takes more bandwidth on the Internet than any fucking other any other thing right it's like 75 of the fucking bits traveling around are porn because people are are looking to get to that um most intimate thing right that's why all the fail videos are gazillions of views on um on youtube right so i get and

you would have to be completely naive at your stage of the game. Sorry, this is a little projecting and manipulative. You'd have to be completely naive at your stage of the game to think that you're going to go on a boat with four dudes, sail across the fucking sorry, sorry, row across the fucking Atlantic. And there not be some just incredible fucking stories. Right. Right. That it's almost a shame if they're not told. I mean, and I, you know, it's, I heard your MyFit podcast.

I've listened to a lot of podcasts to prepare for my podcast. And I listened to a lot of really bad podcasts. That is truly a fantastic podcast. Oh, thank you. You know, just some honesty. That shit is,

I was like, this is crazy, but, but you're still pretty vague. Like I was scraping for more. I'm like, okay, give me more Tosh.

Well, that's what I was expecting with, with you. Cause I, I've listened to some of your podcasts and i know how you are and you are investigative i mean you're a a really well accomplished um a documentist you've yes you do and you don't you you dig in for more for details to to get that you pull a deeper story out and it gives your audience a greater

appreciation at a level and degree than just hitting the, the wavetops if we're going to do ocean rowing. Right. Um, and I think that's essential. It's an investigative reporting, um, and documenting it's, it's fabulous. And like, ask the hard questions and, you know, you'll be able to, through asking the hard questions, you'll be able to pull out of your, yourviewee like kind of who they are and allow other people to be like wow this person's rooted in these values that might not otherwise come out or these this person's rooted in in this sort of thing that through asking these questions and you're looking at how that interviewee responds yes and what they respond it's it's really powerful

you know and go ahead and it reveals a lot about someone, even when they say, hey, I don't really want to talk about that, or I'm not going to talk about that, or hey, I'm not ready to talk about that. Those are also very powerful, great moments. Those aren't fails by the interviewer or the interviewee. They're still great moments that are really revealing. There's still great moments that are really revealing. And what's interesting about you, anybody that's, I'm assuming most people that are watching your podcast right now are watching and listening to it because of you, less me. Because you, you know, you do interview phenomenal people. And if somebody says, hey, I don't want to answer that, you always find a way to keep circling a little bit to just pull, not necessarily just completely get them to divulge or relinquish, you know, command and control of what they don't want to share.

But you pull at least a little something else out of them with the way that you work around. I think that's magical. You know, it's a talent that people just don't have, you know, and I think it's partly genuine curiosity. It is. And thank you. I want to respect that people don't want to share what kind of candy that they ate at Halloween. But then please don't also be offended if I ask you what kind of wrapper was it in. Or can you tell me if it was chocolate or hard candy? There's still some places maybe where we could meet in the middle. Yeah. What about people who find themselves in leadership positions who don't know anything about leadership or who've never thought about leadership? Like you said, when you went to the Marine Corps, you took a leadership class. like you took a leadership class um i i found myself a couple times in life in a leadership position when i didn't even i knew nothing about leadership i didn't want to be a leader i didn't

and and and now with boys i with three kids it's like that do you have any um thoughts of where people should dig in is there a definition of leadership yeah there's so many definite what's your definition of leadership? That's what I would ask anybody. You define it for you. I was recently visiting a family and we were talking and pretty close to these people. And the guy, he was like, hey, Tosh, you're a phenomenal leader. I'm a horrible leader. I don't know anything about leadership. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, man. You know a ton about leadership just from me knowing who you are and how you interact with your people and your employees and your family. You know a ton about leadership. Maybe it's just that you haven't been

exposed to certain vernacular or verbiage or theories that allow you to recognize that you are practicing leadership, but you do. You inspire people to be better than themselves, to work hard, to do something that's bigger than themselves. All of these things, that's leadership. You treat people with common courtesy, decency, respect. This is leadership. People want to work for you. People want not to disappoint you. People do things better than they would if you weren't there, but because you're there, they're doing these things with greater fidelity. Like that's all leadership. You just aren't in a field, a professional field to understand it from these certain terms or this

certain lens. And I told him the, uh, my story, you know, I went to the Naval Academy at the end of my career. I was 17 and change years in the Marine Corps, both enlisted and officer, you know, peacetime combat, everything in between. And now I'm going to the Naval Academy to be a leader at the yard at the Naval Academy. We call it the yard. Oh, you went there to teach, not to be a student. Correct. Okay. Okay. Yep. Permanent personnel staff. And part of that was to get a master's degree in leadership, leadership and academic development through the University of Maryland. So I spent a year getting this master's degree. And when I first went.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, Tosh. So you went there as a student and a teacher? student. I was never as well. I was part of, part of the requirement to be an instructor and permanent personnel inside of Bancroft Hall, where you influence the daily, everything of midshipmen. You have to have a master's degree. And that master's degree has to have something to do with some sort of leadership or management or something like that inside of Bancroft Hall. I didn't have that at the time. So I went there to be permanent personnel. And so part of my first year working at Naval Academy was to go to the University of Maryland to get those things at the same time that I was influencing and working inside of Bancroft Hall. Right. And so you're kind of like dual hatting this. So there was some personal professional growth going on for me, but also I was, I was really put at the Naval Academy to be permanent personnel, not a student. And so now I'm at University of Maryland, which is largely, you know, I was in the sociology college or social work, social work, sociology, I forget the same, not the same thing, but very left-leaning group of people. And I had an instructor that was 25 or 26-year-old guy. I had like a 65, 70-year-old dude. I had a woman that was basically a feminist, a psychologist,

organizational psychologist. You're being exposed to these people that never spent a day outside of the academic arena. And I'm coming with my experiences, um, a Marine Corps major at the time and walk into this thing. Like, what are you guys going to teach me about leadership? Right. And from, from these instructors, like, what are you going to teach me about leadership? And I'm studying. And then I said, Hey, wait a minute, Tosh, like you have this saying that what you know is exactly preventing you from knowing. Okay. And apply I said, Hey, wait a minute, Tosh, like you have this saying that what you know is exactly preventing you from knowing and apply that like, Hey, just, just take a step back and be open and receptive. And so for that year of studies, I learned so much. Um, what it did was, was it put my anecdotal, you know, my experiences into context buffered against theory. And that made, gave me my whole

career. It gave it, made it make sense. Like, this is why you were successful. This is the things that you were doing. This is the things that where you failed. This is theory. This is these other ways of thinking that you normally weren't exposed to because you were in a all male military combat unit. And you can be so much bigger and be able to influence so many people outside of just that small microcosm of a community, right? And I learned so much how to think, what questions to ask, where to invite, different points of view. It really gave, like one year at the university of Maryland gave 17 at the time,

17 years of experience, greater meaning. And it was fabulous. But I hadn't, I had that mindset to just like, Hey, chill out and allow yourself to be open to receive. I got some context and relativity. It's all context and relativity. It really, wow, that's, wow. One year of that added so much value to the other 17 years you already, yeah. Yeah. Dude. And it opened up doors for me to pour. I didn't realize like where I didn't fit in the Marine Corps personality behaviors, things like that, that were, that ruffled a lot of senior officers and was largely me just being undisciplined and a nasty officer. Right. It made me realize that there wasn't fit. And this is why I was struggling

when I got to a certain, certain place against tradition and, and rules and regulations and this and that, and why I was a certain way. And it was because I was a relationship-based leader. And it was because I was a relationship-based leader. And the Marine Corps never taught relationship-based theory leadership. And I was like, yeah, I lead through making relationships with other people and I value relationships so much. And that was how I was leading and commanding not only others but myself. And it was really, really effective, but it broke down in these areas. And it was super effective in these areas. And I started to understand more about myself.

I'm, I'm relationship based. And, you know, I also learned a lot more about stoicism and reductionism. And I'm like, okay, hey, cool. Like, I'm not just this, you know, in the military, they taught a lot of things. It, what I was exposed to through the education process in the Marine Corps and in the thing, the courses that I went through or, or whatever. But I wasn't just an authoritarian leader or persuasive leader. And it wasn't just as simple as being able to ebb and flow across that continuum to find what was appropriate for a situation. There's so many other different leadership concepts and theories.

And I really latched on to relationship-based theory of leadership, you know? And then I think it's Michael Yassim wrote a book called Leading Up and what that looks like. And I'm just like, hey, this stuff is fascinating to me. It's making me understand myself and my experiences so much better. And I largely do that through, you know, Crooked Butterfly Ranch and the Big Fish Foundation. I largely use those concepts and theories that now that I understand myself to teach, mentor, educate others on how to grow and how to lead. And it doesn't mean that everybody's suited or situated emotionally, intellectually for relationship-based theory

leadership, but it's something else that's out there that might make meaning. And, or it's another place that like, Hey, if you're absent of that in your repertoire of being able to connect with other people to make them better towards a common goal or cause, like maybe you need to learn a little bit more about relationship-based and maybe I need to learn a little bit more about this and this, and then I can make myself more well-rounded. Just pushing my margins out, pushing my margins out, you know, but. Were you good at picking leaders, Tosh? I was better at developing leaders. Cause you don't hear about that a lot about picking leaders, but I always prided myself on how good I was at picking leaders. I always prided myself on being such a good follower.

Yeah, and I don't use the word follower. What would you use? I refuse to use the word follower. I use supporter. Supporter. Lead and follow. Lead and follow. Lead and follow. Everybody uses that because it sounds good off the tongue.

But I refuse to follow. Supporter. I like supporter. I use supporter. I refuse to let anybody that I work with follow me. I like it. They either support me or i support them it's this um relationship you know i'm the supported unit and you are the

supporting unit or vice versa but i refuse to let that work because it because what it does is it um sort of connotes like passivity right right i agree i agree with you yeah i agree with you but i i i never hear anyone talk about that about the premium that's put on being able to pick the correct person to support i really really enjoy a great leader i really because i know what i want to do like like like or i enjoy doing things I enjoy being given tasks and supporting other people. And I don't hear about that very often. I've never seen a book, How to Be a Good Supporter. I'm sure there is one.

I've been blessed. I've been blessed two different ways, like to be a commander and being in that, you know, perfunctory leadership, like you will support me role. Uh, and I've also been blessed with phenomenal right-hand men that were in the supporting relationship and did it super well. And I found myself at the Naval Academy being both, and it was absolutely awesome. And I really, you were a great supporter of another, another, uh, group or person. Yeah. Yep. Largely the institution, although that's a loose bit, but more intimately with Dan Healy, working for Colonel Healy. And all I wanted to do was be the best possible right-hand man for that guy and enjoy all

the gifts that were given by being a phenomenal supporter that I was afforded from having phenomenal supporters. And I look for that all the time in new relationships and new, you know, I don't want to say work environments, but there's something really special about somebody that can take another person's mission and just want to uplift it in every way possible to make that person so successful because they know that by making that person so successful, you know, everybody will be successful. And I really starting to enjoy that quite a bit instead of being the guy that everybody supports and whether one comes more natural or the other, it's an opportunity for growth for me that I've really

started to enjoy being that supporting effort in another cause or somebody else's, um, you know, mission. How long has it been since you stepped off the boat? Three weeks. Oh, maybe four now, four weeks now. Like 20, 20 days. So you were on the boat for more days than you are. You were on the boat for 33 days. Correct, yeah. I would say it's probably right close to being equal time now. I can't even remember the date that I got off the boat.

What was the date that we got off the boat? January 14th maybe. Are you forever – like obviously forever – I guess it's hard to know that, but I'll say it anyway, forever changed from getting off from, from that trip, from being on that boat for 33 days. I'll say yes. Yeah. Without hesitation. And how, how do you, sorry, could you describe that change? Right. But that's small in comparison to the things that I learned about being a teammate, about personal leadership and how to lead others to be more conscious about your response. The skills needed, like I didn't succeed every interaction with people. I punted some. I was good at others. I was great at other ways and just learning all of that. I mean, I was in a, on a team with, we were four military guys, three Navy SEALs for whatever that means to anybody. And then myself, alpha-ish, right? Aggressive, eager, accomplished, talented, physical in nature.

And so now you're in this, you're actually a captive on this small vessel in this magnificent ocean and there's nowhere to escape. It's not like I can say, hey, time out. I'm going to get in my truck and drive down to Shake Shack and get a burger and a milkshake because I need space from you because we're having like, you were captive. You were right there and you had to live it and perform, right? Because we were out there to perform. Not, well, originally that was the goal set. We were out there. The goal set was to perform, exceptionally so.

And not out there to largely just have an experience and have a vacation. And there's no escape. And the things that I learned about myself and how to interact. And I was going in large the challenges that I knew how I was, you know, Chris Smith and I really close. He's like, yeah, Tasha's going to have, this is what Tasha's going to struggle with the most. And, you know, he hits me right on the head every time with that and say, okay, cool. Like, how can I keep that at the forefront of my mind while I'm engaging and while I'm interacting and the stuff that I learned, the relationship stuff with these three other dudes in that confined space. And I'm engaging and while I'm interacting and the stuff that I learned, the relationship stuff with these three other dudes in that confined space.

And I'm fascinated with the notes upon notes that I'm writing after the fact, because I didn't write them on the boat because I was focused on winning. I want to bring that into my everyday life with my wife, with my kids, with my loved ones, my friends and family around me. And I want to also share these thoughts with strangers and near friends through the productions that we do through our businesses so that they can then learn those lessons and be better in their circles when they go back home, whether that circle is professional or personal, right? And I will never forget those things. I want to memorialize it by writing them down and committing them,

not only to memory, but more importantly, to practice. And practice these things because it's, yeah, we're hardest on the people that we love the most, right? Can you give me an example of one of these things, Tosh? Yeah. Yeah. Like, uh, so I might be, I might be on a high and might be, and then I might be feeling frustrated with somebody else and I'm getting frustrated and frustrated, more and more frustrated. And then you don't want to cause conflict by interacting, but you know, not to interact is going to increase frustration. And eventually, cause I can remember the future And then you don't want to cause conflict by interacting, but you know, not to interact

is going to increase frustration. And eventually, cause I can remember the future cause I've done it in the past to keep it bottled up and not communicate is going to finally, the bottle is going to be full and it's going to explode. It's like when you shake up a bottle of beer and keep shaking and shaking, eventually it's pop the top off and it's going to be a mess everywhere and you're not going to get to enjoy the beer. And so, you know, you're on a high, you're doing, you're, you're motivated towards a goal.

You're singularly focused on one thing. Like I was singularly focused on winning. Because there were, because there were 44, 43 other boats in the water and you guys were racing, rowing across the Atlantic in a race. Yes. You wanted a race. Yes. You wanted to win. Okay. I wanted to win. That was what we advertised. That was the goal. That was the team's goal. And I just got into mission mode and so focused on that. And my behaviors and my interactions were in a certain way that I would express when I was on the battlefield and I needed to win

because the cost of not winning was catastrophic. Right. And even though I've refined myself and grown a little bit since those days, it brought this, this back out of me, right. Being on the ocean, wanting to win. It brought those combat days back to me in some certain way, in a weird twisted way that, man, I was like this and my interactions with teammates were very like this. And two of the gentlemen responded well to it, and a third one didn't respond really, really well to that. And you get more and more frustrated.

Can you give me an example of that by any chance? Gentlemen, we're putting our vaginas away for the next two hours. Let's get, get, get to fucking work. That's pretty close to it right there. That's pretty close to it. Like quit being a pussy. Like, Hey, you're fucking weak right now. Like, Hey, and I can also be wired towards being passive aggressive. And I use passive aggressiveness in a good way a lot of times,

but then under stress and frustration, sometimes that passive aggressiveness. Like, oh, hey, Johnny, don't worry. I can tell you're not going your hardest. I got the sat phone here. Go ahead and call your wife. Don't worry. I'll roll for you. Yeah.

Like that kind of shit. Okay. Yeah. I like it. And I'm trying to leverage motivational techniques and leadership techniques to try to fix shit that I'm seeing that's not where we need to be. And there's no dei council uh out at sea right no no dei council out of sea in fact i think we need to abolish it across the well let's not go there one quick thing what's the biggest uh uh what's the biggest daytime waves or waves

you think you guys were in we were 30 plus yeah 30 feet yeah over 30 feet um and and you know it's hard for hours on end for hours on end for days oh my god yeah we had anyone vomit on the boat did anyone vomit on the boat nobody vomited wow anyone get seasick uh no one person got started to feel it a little bit but you know between the putting the stuff behind the ears and some of the meds were able to get rid of that through good nutrition, you know, and then when we finally hit the seas that were like that, the acclimatization was, was already in play. So we were, we were very fortunate. That was one of the things that we prioritize and making sure that we didn't lose productivity in the early stages of the race when most people start to experience seasickness. And we didn't experience that largely because of our efforts to prevent it. And then also because the seas in the beginning were relatively mild in comparison to the, to the roughest times. Okay. So, so, so back to dealing with a team, the dynamics of the team.

So there's two guys that were responding well, one guy that wasn't responding so well. Were you the, were you the anointed leader before you guys even started? No. You anointed yourself? No, no.

Okay. Who was the leader? Was there a captain? There was. So we had kind of like three leadership verticals, right? Which in normal circumstances, that's horrible. It doesn't work unless you have certain things ingrained in you to allow that to exist. And we did. We were fortunate with our common backgrounds in our belief sets that we were able to have these things. We had this team captain was Brian and largely he was the team captain because he was the one that came up with this idea and all through training, everything he did, all, all, if most, if not all the coordination efforts with the race and with third party agencies to get qualifications and equipping the boat and everything like that. So he was, he was the team captain.

And we, we had a talk about it. It was like, hey, we're going to consensus lead, right, committee. And we're all going to have input and say, because we all have diverse skill sets as well as a lot of things in common and strengths. And at the end of the day, if something's not just decided upon through that consensus thing, the team captain is just going to leverage a decision. And then we're all on board to support that decision with whatever he says. So we had that avenue. We also had another leadership vertical that was just sort of, hey, he who's most fittest for the task at hand takes charge. And everybody supports that individual. And so that just kind of happened organically as the situations arose. And through'll be times through a lot of it that

that person's just sort of leading in the moment, whether because their faculties are sharpest at the time or whatever the case may be. So we sort of had these three leadership things and they never really came into conflict to like true conflict, you know? And if anything ever started to near some sort of conflict, it would always be, Hey, defer to the team captain. That's the team captain. And I don't think we actually sat down and specifically talked about it in those terms to this degree, but that's how it sort of evolved over two and a half years of training. And it was phenomenal. And I think when you start looking at why it worked and didn't not work,

we all were really strongly rooted in these underpinnings of just common courtesy, decency, respect towards each other. And that allowed us to be able to move through those verticals And that allowed us to be able to move through those verticals fluidly. And that's something that I really, really enjoyed about the three teammates, all four of us, and how we worked well together through everything. It wasn't like conflict management ever for us, for the most part. It was just like conflict anticipation and mitigation before it ever aroused. And through communication, you know, I don't think you could have put anybody else on that boat with us without having the relationship built over the two and a half years of training to interact in a way that we did, because a lot of times it was just very direct. And, uh, I won't say confrontation was just like hey boom and i was like hey there's no

insult taken it's just like hey it's just business and boom boom and we move through it and you allow that to be just what it was instead of harboring some residuals from some sort of interaction and then that plays out through other interactions we were really really good at making it that former example of having an interaction and letting it go because it was just what was needed, and it just expressed itself in a certain way at the time, and there was no ill intent with it. Let me propose this model to you. It was by a mathematician at the turn of the century his name was pdl spensky and basically that imagine a circle filled with 100 i statements i am hungry i am happy i am sad i am brian shantosh i am strong i am uh horny i just whatever all the i statements that make up who we are and whenever one of these i statements gets agitated enough it

needs to see that on the outside world right so if So if I am hungry, then you need to see a banana in front of you. I am, um, I am hostile. You need to pick a fight with your wife. And it's basically the only thing that keeps us in the only way to get rid of those things is to be in a meditative state and watch that I shake and demand attention in the outside world. And you don't react to it. And eventually it dies and goes away or melds with another one and this is this is what we call the process of working towards uh enlightenment self-realization let's say and so you using that kind of model of how we work as as human and so we're just all mirrors of each other demanding that other people give us what we want in order to make us feel grounded in this alien landscape we call earth right you put four fucking dudes on a boat and there's things that they need to see in the

outside world that demands for them to feel like they have identity and they're not going crazy those things that are in their traditional life are not going to be present for 33 days right they're not going to have a wife to fight with they're not going to have they're not going to have a wife to fight with. They're not going to have these things that they normally have that keep them grounded. Right? And I have to guess those things. Does that model work? And in that sense, it's sort of like going on an acid trip getting on this boat. I mean, it's like, hey, get ready.

Every one of you motherfuckers is going to have to, like, you're going to have to let little pieces of you die out there on sea that aren't going to get to be seen for 33 days you might have characteristics that demand to be seen in the outside world every six hours that you're awake that now are not going to be seen for 33 fucking days and they're gonna have to die and when shit dies inside of people they can become fucking hostile they can throw a temper tantrum you know what i mean does that model does that model work and did you did you, did you, did you witness that on the boat with yourself and with others? Yes, yes, yes. And yes. And in fact, it'd be awesome if you could just either type it in the notes that got the gentleman that you're referring to. Cause I'd love to just read on that a little bit. Cause it really sees pullers

pull it up on the screen so I can just get an idea how you spell it and I can look at it later, but Oh, okay. I'll, I'll, uh, I'll text it to you that mathematician yeah i'm really fascinated with that um oh it's such a favorite topic of mine it's how i used to see the the whole world i've spent a lot of time fighting that model for myself you know what i do is i see um i see that model is very self-centric um ego uh identity self-bias all these other things that play with making that model with what it is okay seeing the whole how the whole i talked about at the beginning of the show how the whole world revolves in around you and yes yes yes right yes yeah yeah how everything those are all of his books right there right there by the way pdsp the book i'm talking about it's called the psychology

of man's possible evolution that's the book look at only 499 thank you they're in the middle you should get a two percent royalty on everyone that's sold for the next four three three three percent i just took a screenshot of that thank you um and how everything in the world affects you influences you right and then i've been thinking about that. It's very, very similar to the ages back, Galileo, whatever, like, hey, the universe revolves around the earth, the sun moves around the earth. Well, you shatter that, right? And so I use the we statement. How do I influence and affect those around me? I've spent a lot of time in the personal development phase. Because when I was younger, I was absolutely

unaware, resistant to the we and how I influence everything around me. It was always about me, me, me, me, me. And I know Chris delves into that a ton too. So Chris and I really spend a lot of our professional time outside now in the military, outside of the military now in our lives. Him with his trident mindset stuff, me with Crooked Butterfly and the Big Fish Foundation and checking the left-hand stuff. Focused on fighting that. What was the last thing you said? What was the left-hand thing you said? Check my checking in with the left-hand stuff that I teach and spend a ton of time fighting that. And it's not to say that that model doesn't exist. It's how can we be aware of when it's happening, when the I thing is happening that you explained,

and how can I understand that I need to manage that in the appropriate way for the circumstances that I'm in. And I fell trap to that during this row at times. I would like to think that I managed it exceptionally well. In fact, it's a point of pride for me, a healthy pride, sitting here today, reflecting on our expedition, how I was aware of that and was very, very calculating with my responses and reactions instead of just being impulsive with a reaction that I had. And I know Chris did as well through a lot of conversations with Chris, both on the boat and now off the boat, uh, being aware of when that eye pops and then that something else manifests now, because you're so focused on the eye having to be in opposition and seeking it outside the circle. I'm annoyed by what that guy is doing. Yeah.

And I, and I, and I think, you know, back to where we started, this was, you know, the moment on a boat when it, what happens is like, you're getting frustrated and you're seeing it and you're seeing it and you're bottling it up and you're bottling it up. And then just having this confidence and trust in your teammates to like share, like, hey, you're fucking this up right now or you're a pussy right now or you need to stop doing that or you need to start doing this. And then even getting more. more more better let's just say getting you ever laugh when that happens are there any moments when people laugh when that happens oh you're like like you know like your parents yell at you and your kid and you just start laughing and you're like oh god why am i laughing this is not the time to laugh but you just can't stop yeah it's function of nervousness right in realization but so all that crazy shit happens

on the boat, you're yelling at a guy and it's supposed to be intense and someone just starts laughing or. Yeah. Or you, or you get confrontation back and you just work through it and it was great. And we did it so well, you know, um, trying to be absent of judgment and just be more, um, able to identify and explore, like, why are you doing this? Or why aren't you doing this? Or what can I do to help't you doing this? Or what can I do to help you not do this? Or what do you need? Because if I can help satisfy what you need, we together will be better at doing what we're doing. And those, those times were just awesome.

Like I dork out about that stuff all the time. And it's, it's fascinating. It's, it's, it's what I really, really enjoy. You know, Some of the others, they don't necessarily dork out about that or think about that as much. It's just not their professional application right now and what they do or they don't have capacity for it or they have a lesser capacity for it or whatever it is, no, anything. But I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about just these same things and managing my behaviors and how I present right to others in order to increase efficiency towards accomplishing a mission. And there was, there had to be a shift for me about halfway through. I was given the

feedback that, um, Hey, like you're making me feel this way and it sucks and whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever whatever and i'm like whoa day 15 someone on the boat says that to you quite literally well it might have been like day 15 yeah day 14 it quite literally was exactly then yeah i would fucking snap if someone you are making me feel this way we have all sorts of problems now but i guess you have to be in that trust environment. God, this is like a, it was like you were married to these three dudes. Yeah. And it was a super healthy engagement, you know, for both of us, for, for the three of us that were witness to it on, on deck at the time.

And it was like, Hey, I feel really sad that I've been making you feel this way for the last 14 days. It was not in my intent. I wasn't singling you out or trying to pick on you or anything. I was trying to motivate you and give you some awareness that you're being a little bitch, but largely it was not personal. And I thought that you were responding well to it. And it's also kind of how I'm wired. And then I realized that the intended impact wasn't consistent with what the actual impact was and we reconciled and i made a conscious deliberate effort from that point on to shift 180 degrees the way that i interacted with this individual and it got better but still be sincere and authentic but still be sincere well yes but not 100 does that person regret like if i'm like if i'm on the boat and

i'm thinking i'm if i pull you aside or i'm like tosh stop fucking picking on me fucking a dude mind your own fucking business every fucking time we're out here together you have some shit to say about me and then if three days go by and you're quiet i'm gonna start missing the fact that you call me an asshole and a bitch yeah it. It's going to backfire on me. I mean, she gets weird, right? Yup.

And that's you, this person. It wasn't this person. There was actually a genuine betterment for it. And then in fact, another four days later, because I was having trouble, like I just came out on deck and I was like,

Hey, we're going to have this conversation right now. And I was able to then, cause what happened was, was when I was given that feedback, this person was at a low of low of low of lows. And, um, it was a lashing out by this person. It was a function of a really giant pity party, but also a lashing out for feedback. And I was really, I got to silence that. I was really excited by how I just decided to receive and not respond. And it's something that I struggle with in my personal life off the boat.

I liked how you said you received too. You said that basically you said, I feel bad that I was fucking your shit up. Yeah. You accepted it. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. And I let it be. I had a lot of things I wanted to say, but recognize like, okay, hey, you know what? I need to say these things not for you, for me, and you are the sincere about the things that I was saying, um, about being apologetic and this and that, and it wasn't my intent and, and Hey, I promise that I'm going

to do this and do this now. And we just let it go. You know, I wasn't done with it yet. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, I don't know. Um, but we let it go and it was a really powerful moment. Uh, No. But we let it go. And it was a really powerful moment. Do you hug? No, we didn't hug. No.

Does anyone cry? I didn't cry. I'm not afraid of crying. I cry a lot, but I didn't cry. And then it was like four days later that it was like, okay, hey, we're going to have this conversation right now because I feel tense about something. And his response was like, Oh no, everything's great. Like, I don't feel that. And, but I needed to share now my point of view. And he was super generally receptive and accepted that as well. And everything was great after going through that, that back and forth. And I like both of you should be proud that you did that. That was

some intense shit. Yep. Yep. And, uh, as a really specific moment for me on the boat. And I think about that all the time and how that applies to my interactions here at home now. And I want to make sure I don't ever forget that. So the original question was all, this is like, have I changed or have I grown for the rest of my life? Like I am going to make it so, because that moment was so defining for me. And I'm so grateful for him to have created that moment for us to share. And I'm hoping that he's benefiting from it as much as I am. And if he's not, then that's fine too. But, but I know I am, and I've spent a ton of time in the last four weeks and change or whatever the time is thinking about that. In fact, I spent the next 15 days on the boat, really, really thinking about

that. Uh, and then there also is still like, I'd be a liar if I didn't say there isn't still this little small piece of me right here like this, that is still pissed. um because we were supposed to be four exceptionally phenomenal dudes going for the goal of fucking winning and um like and it's like yeah hey i'm driven to win measuring and judging that that person was absent of that to the degree that I was. And I don't know if it's fair or not fair, but I think it's fair for me to point that finger and indict it, whether it's 10% fair or 20% fair. There is still some fairness of the indictment that I'm making, but I'm also still, like I talked about earlier, flipping the hand over. And even though I'm pointing the finger and I'm saying that that is valid, there are three other things at least that are valid here that led to

that situation. And I'm accepting ownership and responsibility for those things. And I'm also making a commitment to myself and the world that I'm going to learn and grow from those things that I've pointed back at myself and have to take ownership of. And yeah, it's, it's, it was that big of a moment for me on the boat. There's this, um, super like deep component there that I think that would, uh, I'm going to speculate that's what's, what's causing you the itch to that. You still, still maybe some sand still in there. I'm grinding away at you. And it's the fact that when someone says something to you like that, um, I feel this way. Um, there's this really

deep part in all of us, especially when you're on a mission, kind of a life or death race or die mission out in the middle of sea. That's like, Hey, you shouldn't have brought that guy on the boat. And I know that's fucking pretty gnarly to say to someone, especially on a 33 day adventure. It's not like just a hundred burpees for time, fucking forget your name and go. But there's, there is this element that's like, Hey, that dude wasn't invited on the boat just so you know, but, but, but, but you can't push them down. He, I mean, i mean you could i mean he's got to come out

eventually right it goes back to that kind of that auspensky model that eye has to fucking get out or it's gonna die in there and maybe there's a party that's like hey motherfucker you should let that guy die so we could win the race i like the way you phrase that i want to think about that a little bit more because i just wasn't thinking along those lines. I'm not trying to say that one's way is fair and one way is not. But, like, is the mission that we all – like, the mission is we win and Tosh and Chris have to die on this trip. Even if it means Tosh and Chris have to die. You know, pieces of you have to die. We have to win. I think for me, a big part of the itch is that I'm mad at myself for not self-regulating,

having self-awareness and adjusting sooner. Oh yeah. Yeah. I wish I had some personal responsibility and accountability looking to, I wish I had the capacity to recognize like, Hey, this isn't working, or this is building up and I need to fitness and change sooner. So it didn't have to get to that point. I expected more from yourself as a leader. Yes and no and no. Because I was working off an assumption that, hey, like we're all fucking meat eaters and this is what meat eaters do.

And to see that like, okay, hey, you advertised as a meat eater, but really you're much more an omnivore than you are a fucking meat eater. And given the choice of broccoli or steak, you would rather have a larger portion of broccoli. Whether you know that or not, I hope you know that about yourself now. You know what I'm saying? But that's not to say that you don't eat meat. It's just that I want one piece of broccoli and I want 20 ounces of fucking steak. Right. You don't even have to cook my shit.

I'll eat that shit raw. Right. And, um, so I wish that I had recognized it and evolved sooner. I should have, I could have, I wish that I was, I wish that my audience had given me subtle feedback sooner and sooner instead of bottling it up so long. Yeah. So now that we both take responsibility for that uh you know him taking responsibility for the way he was feeling

and allowing me the courtesy of being aware of it and helping give me the awareness like i i was i would have hoped for both ultimately i wish it never would have happened right but oh i don't know if that's true really god, it makes for such a good story now. Isn't all this shit really just a story now? Yeah. And it, you know, and if it never would have happened, would I have this moment of realization now to be able to leverage it for growth in the future? Like, so I don't believe in regrets. I don't look at wanting to re-script the past at all. All of the shame that I have for things that I've done, um, all the disappointment where I've let myself down or others. I don't ever wish for any of that to change because it is essential for me having

what I have now. And then I also know that I'm going to have more of those in the future, hopefully less of them and more infrequent, but I want those opportunities. That's the whole thing of putting yourself outside the margins to identify gaps so that you can then pull in some resources to shore those gaps up and make them at least, you know, neutral, if not strengths. And that's, it's called growth mindset. That's living a life of growth mindset for you in an interpersonal way. That's, that's super important. And, but yeah, it's just a really big, I spin around, I spin around that moment in so many different ways.

And, you know, even how I adjusted afterwards, I was like, okay, cool. Could I have adjusted differently? Could I have adjusted better? I was really having a hard time letting go of the fact that we just moved our fucking goalposts and decided that we weren't trying to win anymore. And we're just going to go have a good time. I didn't sign up for an experience, and adventure to have fun and build my spirituality. Like that was not what was, that's not why I decided to be part of this adventure. I knew that those things were

going to happen, but like the number one, I was chasing the mission right here at no other expenses. My military career, it was always- what place did you guys take what place did you guys take fifth or sixth i think okay out of 44 out of 44 you know and and like let's let's like there was only really 20 boats in the race class so the 44 boats there's a combination of five sums four sums three sums pairs and singles we were in the fours category of racing and there might have been 15 or 20 boats in the fours you'd have to go back and get the numbers but um and you're and what you're saying is that the mission did change along the way is that what you're saying it did it slipped and why it slipped was because of uh someone actually said that out loud someone actually said hey i know our goal was to win

but then they they said out loud i think we should just have fun yeah we had a team meeting it like day 16 or 17 we had a team meeting are you sure they didn't say hey we should have fun while we win i'm 100 sure fuck yeah that i don't think someone should let that fall out of their mouth no well i don't mean to be a i don't mean to be there was there was some some some um was some decay of psychological toughness, right? And I can't imagine 33 days. So easy for me to say from – I don't even remember those 33 days. While you guys were making permanent memories, I don't even remember.

But in defense too and understanding from a bigger picture, and I know I'm wired different. Maybe that makes me who I am for better and worse. But if I say I want to win, like, yes, I want number one, right? And that's important. But that's also based off of measurement, right? You know, Ralph Waldo Emerson, you know, measurements of Thief of Joy, comparisons of Thief of Joy. And so, like, I want number one. That means we're comparing ourselves to other boats. measurements of thief of joy comparisons of thief of joy and so like i want number one that means we're comparing ourselves to other boats there was a time where physically with all good reason

we never would finish first place and so therefore okay got it i'll be rowing to win in in you know futility because we can't physically get first place well and i can understand how that would change moving the goalposts towards something so that we can optimize at least still benefiting from other things. I understand that. There should be some really deliberate, conscious, rational thinking revolving around that. In our case, I don't think it was such that. It was more of an emotional conversation because I could finish in third place, sixth place, or last place and still call it winning. Because when I said I wanted to sign up to win, I was talking about, yeah, I wanted number one, but I wanted to subject myself to

all the physical and psychological stresses that somebody racing to win first place. I wanted to do that to myself. I wanted to go in such a dark, deep place, physically, emotionally, and the effort and the intent, all of the magic that is involved with supporting an audacious goal of winning, right? I wanted to do that regardless, whether the boat broke down, whether we were in last place, whether I was feeling ill or not feeling ill, it doesn't matter what I wanted to row from time zero to time finish with the intensity and the vigor that anybody rowing for first place would have, regardless of whether we finished or not. And I was really excited about going there.

And maybe I was the most excited about going there and it wasn't communicated or it wasn't really like embedded in others, or maybe they thought a little bit less of that or the way that I, I know Chris didn't. Chris and I think very, very similar and it was very, very clear. But I'm not going to, I'm not going to bash the moving of the goals other than to say that that was taken away from me. And people will say, oh, well, you could have still done that to yourself. Well, then that would have been me doing something and then the team doing something else. I wanted to do that together, all four of us. I wanted to just punish ourselves beyond belief and show up at the finish line knowing that we went 100% of the time towards this goal, whether we arrived.

You were okay with an ambulance taking you off the boat and giving you an IV. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. But you would, you would, we would have had to fight for you to get me off that boat. It's funny because Chris and I had this conversation one night when we were talking, I was like, Hey, Chris, we've got five days to go. We're 300 miles away and we're got no power. We've Hey, Chris, we've got five days to go. We're 300 miles away and we're got no power. We've got no water and we're not going to make the Island because of the currents and the waves. And the safety boat comes up and says, Hey, let's get off the boat. Are you getting off the boat or getting on a boat? The other two guys left. And it's you and me left.

And I'm telling you, I'm not getting off this fucking boat. Are you? And it was a much more elaborate because you know, you're talking in passing time and uh we talked about that like well why why do you not want to get off the boat is it pride is it ego is it something else so then i love these conversations with chris because we really dig into a lot of depths through question questioning to understand an answer that we're giving you know and it's like what's driving you to want to stay on the boat is it pride is this is this and it's like, what's driving you to want to stay on the boat? Is it pride? Is this, is this, and it's like, yes, to this degree because of this and this, but ultimately it was because I wanted to give myself the gift of doing something to this degree of fidelity that was very, very similar, the most similar that I could ever replicate in outside of combat.

Right. And there was a, there was, there was an, an attraction to being there again, because when we were in combat, when we were in Fallujah, there was never a,

Oh no, there were, there always, especially as a commander, there was always in that the intensity and the drive is like, boom. And I was seeking that. It was like, boom. And I was seeking that. And I recognize that now.

And that's what informed a lot of my actions and my thoughts and my mindset and everything. And I was just so excited to have this opportunity again. And that's what we advertised to the world that we were chasing. Originally, we said we were going to chase a world record. And then it got diffused to be, well, we're going to get first place. And then that got diffused to row as fast as we possibly can. And then that got diffused to just row as fast as we can. But we're going to make sure we have some fun and we build relationships and we have a spiritual moment.

And that just kept angering me and angering me because that slope of moving the goalposts, just once you move the goalposts once, it opens the door. And then it's easier and easier and easier and easier to keep moving and moving and moving. And I'm watching this unfold. And it's absolutely in contest with what I believe and feel. And I'm part of it. And I have to be the best possible teammate I can because it's not about the I. It's not about the I.

And serving the greater good. Serving the greater good. Then I find myself in the same position I keep finding myself in with teams and this or that where you're constantly relinquishing this for this. And I know that that's a good thing. And they were the right decisions and they are the right decisions and you benefit tremendously for having those. But to use your example of having a little piece of sand still, I can't seem to get that piece of sand out of there. And I'm looking for it. I want to find myself in an endeavor where I am the weakest link.

I want to be pushed to that extreme. Oh shit. I have moments where I'm a weak link. Wow. You really want to link. Wow. I want to go there. I want to be in such an audience going for something,

chasing something where it's like, I'm the purse. Chris calls it being the purse. And you know, I look for that in every relationship that my kids have, by the way. So it's a theme that I've been beating for a year. Every coach that my kids have, I need to be the weakest link. If I'm doing a better job than the coach, meaning I'm getting my kids there in time and warmed up and the coach is late just for an example that i mean that would be an immediate i'm out but the coach needs to be looking like my wife had to tell my uh kids tennis coach um that we were leaving for two weeks to come down here to arizona just to hang with greg and she was scared to tell him and i go that you

should be that means we're the fucking weakest link and we know that he cares you should be i totally respect what you're saying when you say that you want to be the weakest thing i want to tell you guys how fucking crazy intellectually honest um uh brian shantosh is uh he hasn't touched on this yet but i heard him say in another podcast here's the irony of everything he just said when they changed the goal posts that this is so fucking nerve-wracking when you said this i was like fuck this is crazy they changed the goal post and intellectually brian's like what the fuck i didn't sign up for this but the team did better as a whole towards the goal of winning right your time's picked up you did and when you were explaining that i was like

holy fuck this is like this is like crazy now leadership shit like like there's like are you going to take the 30,000 foot view the 60,000 foot view the 90,000 foot view do you have to go to 200,000 feet now now do i like really because now you're going really big picture okay do i Do I change the goalposts, but we're not really changing the goalposts in order to get a better time to reach the goal. I mean, it's, it becomes this, um, is it an intellectual practice? Is it an emotional practice? Is it just a survival? Like by any means necessary survive, meaning when, I mean, it gets pretty, it gets pretty

wild, right? Yeah. I was, I was even more pissed after we made that decision. At yourself at that point for not learning that, knowing that you could have manipulated the group earlier. I was manipulating the group for days and days to even get us to day 16. Um, and you know, and, and not, not patting myself on the back because everybody was doing their part too, you know, managing themselves and pushing themselves to their limits and trying lower than what either I was led to believe or wanted to believe or what was advertised, you know, in, in the actual execution, right? Like we can all embellish what our limits are in peace and peace and comfort and safety

and warmth. Right. But then when actually you're in a moment, what are your limits? And if your perception of your limits is so off from what your actual limits are, that's not good. If your, if your perception of your limits is here and then in execution, your limits are here. Hey, that's, that's good. And that's what I'm striving to do with myself, right? Like, in fact, a lot of times we find that people's perception of their limits is here and they're actually up here. And how do I wire people? That's what diesel days do. People set a low ceiling for themselves and I try to arm them with ways of thinking and behaviors to support ways of thinking, to create consistency, to show them this is really your ceiling up here.

Right? But your ceiling, you think your ceiling's down here. right but your ceiling you you think your ceiling's down here when i find myself in these situations like this and that's what i found myself in and i was fucking angry and i'm still angry about it um but i'm angry in a good way that's healthy that's encouraging um a lot of reflection and growth personally that i can you know parlay forward into the professional space for others as well and and not make those again, knowing that I will make those mistakes again, but maybe to a lesser degree and less frequently. I want to, I want to propose this idea to you. If, if, if, if someone says to me, Hey, Sevan, you, you have a big nose and it hurts my feelings.

Stevon, you have a big nose and it hurts my feelings. And then later on, they apologized to me. Have they have they set me up to just have my feelings hurt again? They took something now. They hurt me. And then they and then they knocked me off my pedestal. And then now they put me back up so that someone else can come along and knock me off again. Is it better that they don't say that they're sorry and let me process the fact that like, hey, it's my choice to be hurt by the fact that I have a big nose or not to stop arguing with reality, to realize that I'm giving other people power, that I'm, is this apology really really counter – it's really for them.

It's not for me. When people give me an apology, I very often ask another question. That's the way I actually lead. People that have answers are mildly interesting compared to the people that have more questions, better questions. And I'm like, what are you apologetic for? Are you even aware of what you're apologizing for? And then have that other person like, oh, well, I'm apologizing that I said this or whatever. Or are they aware that, hey, you hurt my feelings or that this or that this or that that, right?

So finding out what somebody's apologetic for, I think is instrumental in arming yourself with awareness of whether or not it was a good thing or a bad thing that they apologized. Right. Um, a lot of times people apologize, but really they're apologizing. Like you said for themselves. Yeah. Like these guys apologize to you. Yeah. If these guys who you, who you went on the boat with were like, Hey Tosh, I'm sorry that I misrepresented myself or, hey, I'm sorry I didn't pull through or I'm sorry I was the weakest link, that doesn't – in the end, that's not going to help you. That's just giving you your problem of expectations back to whatever, whatever the issue is that you need to work through. Right. Well then, and then how about this? Like how, why is your psychological health dependent upon whether somebody's sorry or not? Right. How are you processing the fact that,

Oh, you know what? Like you're right. My nose is a little bit bigger than average. Right. Okay. I don't, I don't identify myself by my nose. It's just who I am and whatever it is, but like, Hey, it allows me to smell better. I get it. You're identify myself by my nose. It's just who I am and whatever it is. But like, hey, it allows me to smell better. I get it. You're not attracted to my nose, but my wife is. And so I can keep these things in context instead of allowing somebody else to own my psychological health based off of where they're at in their development spectrum or whatever. And when you get on a boat with three dudes, there is going to be three other dudes for 33 days in a very tight quarters, all that shits. Hey, did any of the, did, did you hear any like horror stories on any of the other boats? Like

people came to blows or, uh, they had the boat had to be pulled out of the water. Cause someone was going to kill someone. Like I haven't heard any of those stories this year um but we did hear a story about um i think it was team fight or die what who you i'll talk about that second um it was a different group of teammates but they actually got into a fist fight while they were on the boat um so i know that there's some weird things that happened on the boat um i know one it's too small to fist fight right there's no there's no escape and you're fighting. Phone booth fighting. Yeah. And Fighter Dye this year actually capsized in those big waves.

They had to be rescued by a Canadian merchant vessel. They were in the life raft for 17 hours. And from the stories that I'm hearing, it was like this close to being catastrophic. But they were able to save themselves. Yeah. They couldn't write the boat. They're in the water exposed. They finally get the life raft out.

They spend 17 hours floating adrift in these storms until a merchant vessel could respond and then rescue them. And if you look at the tracker, the YB tracker, that's showing the pings, I think actually their pings gone now, but that boat is still in the ocean, just floating. Um, they didn't finish. They landed in Canada. I think they went to Halifax, but, um, we finished the race either

the day of, or the day after they landed. So they get rescued on like day eight or nine. I don't know what day they got rescued, but give or take inside of two weeks. And they spent another four weeks on a merchant vessel before they ever got to land. And we actually finished rowing across. But man, you know, just a breakdown in systems and procedures and some disciplines. And then their boat catches water and waves and it capsizes. And then they couldn't get it right. It was their fault.

Yeah, I believe so. If you were to do a formal investigation, I would find that there was some, some lapses in judgment that led up to that situation actually manifesting. If you practice capsizing, like, so you guys have this brand new boat, do you practice capsizing it and flipping it back around or no, it's not one of the, that's not. We talked about it briefly and um angus our um our campaign manager was like no don't do that you don't you don't need to do that it's like it's like tyson oldroyd told me one time i i had an adventure bike motorcycle and he goes hey bring it into the gym and lay it down and then i'll teach you how to stand it up and i'm like fuck you i'm not

doing that and then three days later i put it down and a guy in a Prius had to stop and help me pick it up. There's certain things, there's certain things to do to practice like adversity, right? There's certain things that you should do to practice like going through, but rolling the boat for practice wasn't advised. You know, the electronics, um, there it is, fight or die. Go, go, um, whoever's managing that all the way back up towards Africa. There was a boat fight or die. There's your boat right there. Oh shit. Is it, are those the Canary islands? Yeah. So they must've put it, another boat must've went and rescued it and towed it back to,

but if you followed that track, you would see where they capsized and they just drifted aimlessly. Yeah. But yeah, no, we didn't practice rolling the boat. In fact, we did everything smartly to practice preventing a boat from having that reality. And plus the boats, the Rannoch boats are so well built that they just don't. We came close twice to capsizing. We were beyond 90 degrees. I was in the water pinned against the seat.

What does that mean, 90 degrees? Like up like this, nose up or sideways? Sideways. Yeah, rolling sideways. And in the water, shoulder, head, pinned against the safety rails is the waves. And I think when we broke our plate and our gate, that's what saved us from fully going over. Because the way the oar was pinned in the water, it prevented it from rolling more. But these boats are designed to

actually roll and then self-right almost right away um there's the way that they build boat building you can study boat building if that's your fancy but they're built they're built really really well to not capsize the riding moment is so high that um they're super seaworthy but building the confidence in your equipment was was essential right like because up to that point you're in these 30 plus foot waves and the wind and it's pitch black out and you're just getting beat up and your tiller goes out and you're just like holy like and then you don't capsize it gives you tremendous amount of confidence in your equipment and confidence in your equipment is is key it's clutch in being a high-performing team, right?

You could have all the skills necessary to be the best of the best, and if you lack confidence in the equipment, your skills are then marginalized because of that lack of confidence, right? And we just were very fortunate to have a moment to build a tremendous amount of confidence, and we had super high-end equipment. I'm also guessing on the flip side there that if you have a boat that absolutely refuses to stay capsized, the time that it does actually capsize and stay capsized, that means something really bad has happened. Like it's taken on a lot of water or something really fucked has happened.

Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't want that. You know, but I when I when I so so for years I've imagined I'm kind of talking to you from back when I was doing the CrossFit podcast and I always and I'd seen the movie and I and I had read the wiki page and I always wondered, like, how am I going to navigate the conversation to hear the stories that I want to hear, um, from Brian Shantosh. And then as, uh, we got closer to, uh, today, which I actually thought was yesterday. So I kind of got myself really hyped up to talk to you yesterday. And then, cause my schedule is all fucked up. I'm, I'm, i'm i'm i'm

just i'm i'm partying right now i mean i never really party but i'm with my kids in arizona right so then i listened to these these pot i listened to two podcasts where you talked about um your boating um adventure and i was like fuck i really need to get to talk to brian and build a relationship with Tosh before I talked to him about the boat trip. Like, like I, there's, there's, I just wanted to have like a moment of just like shooting the shit with you a little bit, cover the broad topics of, you know, diesel days and leadership and just some things that, um,

where our, our, our interest intersected. Right. I just wanted to get to know you as a person. Um, but, but I, that, that I do, I would love to, uh, have you back on and really talk about the boating trip and make it a, a whole show. It is a, a fucking old man in the sea fucking epic. And for anyone who can't wait for Brian to come back on or for Tosh to come back on the show, what's it called? Is it called My Fit Podcast? Yep.

It is great. But I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you. I was excited when you reached out and uh cool it was it was a short response because i don't even think i was off the boat yet i think we were like a day no no you weren't off the boat but i was so excited like i was more excited than ever for you when i saw you were doing that i i think it's it's absolutely batshit crazy and um like for me the most exciting thing that happens in my life is someone throws up at the dinner table a kid.

And I'm like, yeah, I'm never going to forget this dinner. You actually went out of your way. And I was blown away when I saw this Instagram account pop up, the rowing Instagram account. I was like, holy shit. I actually was concerned for you. I thought, oh, fuck. What if he dies? I'm with Chris Smith and two other Navy SEALs. I'm in a boat with three Navy SEALs. I mean, come on, man. What's going to happen?

Yeah. And, and I was actually a little concerned for Nicole too. I was, uh, uh, I'm obviously, I'm closer friends with her than I am with you. And that I was actually like fuck how did i was um how does she process all that shit how does she like i i would not i would not want my wife to go on a boat for 33 days out at sea with with no chance of you know rescue i mean there really is no chance of rescue the fact that those guys get rescued by a merchant ship really explains it all yeah you know there's there's actually you know they say within 48 hours there'll be a response there's the maritime tradition you know and um we were outfitted

with so many safety things you know epurbs and gps trackers and life vests and rafts and stuff i mean but that ocean she is uh pretty magnificent and um it's not personal it's not forgiving yeah zero personal that's the fucked up part yeah and she showed us who she was uh for a good stretch of the way and it was it was wild it was absolutely wild so um i uh i will i sent I sent you the name of that book, uh, or the author's name, P.D. Ouspensky. It's, it's like called the possible evolution or something. You'll see it. And, um, I will, uh, maybe in the next month, um, we could, um, hang out again and, uh, and, and talk about the adventure. I, you, I know you've already given me three hours of your time. I appreciate it. So, um, but I'd love to, I'd love to do it again. Yeah. Anytime, Siobhan. I really appreciate you

and the opportunity to be on here and talk about a few things and, you know, ideally maybe get people thinking about themselves a little bit more to be bigger and look forward to talking about some details and some, some stories from the row specifically for sure. Hey, that is what I am going to take away by the way. That is what you gave me today. How to think about being bigger. Right on. Yeah. All right, brother. You the man. You bet. Take care. Say hello to everybody. And, um, I'm always looking at those kids, man.

There's crazy how big they're getting and the things that they're doing. They are a truly special. Thanks, man. They're my pride and joy. Yeah. All right, brother. Peace. Peace. special thanks man they're my pride and joy yeah all right brother peace peace shit he needs his own podcast does that dude have his own podcast no i don't think so i've been following him for years now and i'm just like blown away he's always coming up with something new that is just insane. He talks good.

Yeah, he talks real good. He's a good talker. He talks so good. Good tone. Good word choice. Good topics. Yeah, he's a pretty interesting dude. I remember watching that 24 hours in the shipping

container and I'm just like walking. He's great. Sevan dropped the – I don't know the fucking movie name. I don't know the name of the movie. I tried to find it and I could not find it. Dude, I had to buy it on DVD. I have the DVD somewhere. They didn't use his name in it, they possibly top two podcasts ever well thank you

or thank thank him when uh i i don't remember i don't remember if they use his name in the movie when you when i have people like that on i'm usually really really nervous. For some reason, I wasn't nervous today. But I know he's like a crazy high caliber, high value, super intense human being. I don't want to waste two hours and 40 minutes of this fucking dude's time. So I'm like, even a couple times I caught myself not being present, like looking over your guys' comments. And I'm like, don't do that, Sevan. Give this dude everything. I didn't even need my notes you want to know what happened i had like three pages of notes maybe and then i i shouldn't say this because there's a couple people in the comments who hate me and i lost the notes

there's this feature on the iphone it's how it happens once every six months there's this feature on the iphone when you're what because i type in, in the Gmail, in the draft, all my notes. And there's a button on the bottom that says discard draft. And I accidentally fucking hit it last night. We really should start using Google docs. Please don't be that person too. Oh,

crooked butterfly is the name of his podcast. Okay. He, you know, he's one of those those he should just go on a lot of podcasts he doesn't have time to do his own podcast he should just go on a shitload i mean he's gonna have ideas about all sorts of topics and thoughts and he's got so much life experience that's the thing with people with a shitload of life experience you got to think of them as sort of like just processing units. You just have to like you can ask him like what's he think about pizza? What's the best handgun to buy? Should you open a car door for women?

Like you can ask him, oh, what do you think about the theory of relativity? Einstein's, you know, versus Newtonian gravity. Like this motherfucker will have thoughts on all that stuff. And if he doesn't, he has the kind of experience that will allow him to process it there right in front of you so it's cool he's cool like that um how do you feel about him outing the two other dudes who decided to quit oh i didn't see it that way i saw you in the comments i didn't see it that way hey dude here's the thing man they got it they i don't know what they talked about before but they you got to know if you're going to go on that adventure that it's going to be a story for everyone.

I'm not going on no fucking 33 day adventure with three other dudes in a fucking boat if I'm not able to talk about it. The only thing, I mean, shit. I don't think it's outing. I don't think I, I think he should say it all. Actually. I think he should say it all, actually. It was surprising that they trained for two and a half years, and then it's like, oh, we'll do it for fun now. I don't know.

Obviously, I've never been in a situation like that, but when you train for something to win something and have done similar things that are probably similarly difficult, you would imagine that they would just go to win you know what i mean like none of i don't think any of those dudes have done anything similarly well i mean they all went to buds like they all went to oh right i guess yeah good so i mean they're they have the experience to uh endure hardship but i mean to endure hardship. But, I mean,

maybe they just haven't endured enough hardship lately. Trish, there is some percentage. If this show is a 6, it's a 10 with you. Like, there's some percentage that you add value to the show that should always be recognized with your questions and comments.

And I just want you to know. I don't know what it is. It's definitely not a six to a 10. Maybe it's a 9.8 to a 9.9. Nah, nah, I'm not even giving you that much, but I'm just telling you,

you add value to my life and the show. And thank you. Uh, so do you, Heidi? So do you, Austin? Don't anyone get all weird just cause I'm not, you know,

so do you Benji? Oh, Benji. Cody sounds like he's talking about uh talking through a tin can with the new headset cody caleb it's caleb that's funny is there's somebody who didn't know my first name for a long time they just kept calling me cody who is that like a friend of mine that i used to work with he's like for a while he just called me by my last name and eventually he like got me a key chain and it had Cody on it.

He goes, oh, I thought your name was Cody. This was like a year and a half after, like we've known each other for like a year and a half at that point. He's like, oh, I thought your name was Cody. I was like, you jackass. Isn't this like Danielle Brandon's agent? Or is that different Benji? Different Benji, I think. Oh.

All right. I'm sure your life has value too benji okay uh yeah that's a long dangerous commitment he can out whoever he wants yeah all right guys um All right, guys. No show tonight. Right. But there's two shows tomorrow night. If you did not see last night's show, you have to watch last night's show. Watch the last half hour, 45 minutes when we had Brian Spinn on and Andrew Hiller. Holy shit. uh we we okay there's no show tonight okay yeah one epic show with uh brian uh shantosh this morning it's over and then tomorrow morning we have a live call-in show that's gonna be fun and then in the evening we're gonna watch uh andrew hiller jr and taylor and i are gonna watch andrew hiller do the uh open workout yeah i'm gonna have brian i'm gonna have shantosh back on i'm gonna have a tosh back on we're going to talk just about the boat trip. None of this other stuff. But I really did need to kind of bro out with him.

I hadn't talked to him in a couple of years. I think it's important that we tangoed a little bit. Okay. Time to go play. Take kids to jiu-jitsu and skateboarding. Go hang out with my homeboy, Greg Glassman, Maggie Glassman. Caleb, thank you. Anytime.

Bye-bye.