The Sevan Podcast - Greg Glassman #9 | Ft. Joe Westerlin

Episode Date: August 22, 2023

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simultaneously uh good morning fanny good morning eric good morning omar audrey hi bam audrey's ready that's all that matters sure i can all All right. Awesome. Thank you, David. This morning, we have Greg Glassman coming in in a couple of minutes, maybe a couple of seconds. Steve, what's up, dude? And and then at 730, we have Joe Westerling coming in. I haven't talked to Joe in forever. Forever, forever, forever. He'll be hanging out with Greg and I today. former, probably a flow master over at CrossFit. Maybe he still is a flow master. I don't even know. That's how long it is I've talked to him. Greg was asking me last night, are you going to do a pre-interview with him? I said, no, I'm on vacation. I don't really do pre-interviews. I do want to share something with you guys.

Hey, good morning. You guys know I grew up in the Bay Area. I love all the crazy shit. I love 20-foot tall marijuana plants. I don't mind a crazy party. I don't mind nudity. I don't mind drinking. I don't mind all any

crazy shit adults want to do, I'm cool with as long as it doesn't hurt other people. I love the love fest that they do in the middle of san francisco um i'm pretty much cool with everything as long as it doesn't hurt other people like pooping on the sidewalk i think that hurts other people i don't like that even if you're an adult i don't like it and uh and introducing kids to drugs and adult type of ideas. I don't like that either. I want to show you something I did. When Kayla was on here the other morning, we were talking. I was talking about this. These tranny reading hours for kids where you take your kids to the library, you bring your child to the library, and then transvestites read to them.

And I don't like it at all. I don't like it at all. I don't like bringing your kids to men who have an unquenchable desire to hang out with little kids. I don't like it. I don't I don't like it and I want to read you some of the responses and show you how off people are how confused people are so this person writes maybe you could have an actual conversation about this once you learn the difference between a trans person and a drag queen. Oh, Nelly.

Maybe we'll come back to this. That's like me telling you, hey, lawnmowers are dangerous. Don't flip them upside down and touch them. And you telling me that's not a lawnmower. It's a blender. And I'm like, okay, fine. You win. Still don't put your hand in it.

I don't care. I don't really care what the – to win that all day long. I think putting your hands in things with spinning blades is a bad idea. Hi, Greg. Sir, what's up? Good morning. Let me see. I think maybe my headset's – oh, shoot.

Here we go. How's that? Is that better for everyone? Can you hear me better? Oh, it is? Okay. A little louder. louder okay i switched to this microphone this is i set up all my stuff in um uh newport beach so this is kind of a test run i tested it last night but then i had to make some tweaks to it looks good bud thanks i'm just uh

pushed up in a kitchen here up against a white wall. I was talking about the reading hours that they have at libraries. And I like the idea. I like the idea of like an Amish lady, the Amish lady reading hour. You know what I mean? Where she comes from. Why can't they have that one? Where's, why can that be?

They have the transvestite reading hour, then the Amish lady reading hour. And then like, maybe like, I don't know. Why does it have to be something crazy? Why can't they just have a simple reading hour? Regular person reading at boring old lady reads to your kids hour you know what I mean like retired physician reading hour

I want it I'm good with it it's all grooming why isn't it why aren't there any women doing that why aren't there any women dressing up as like weird characters and going why is it all dudes well that picture you showed me that that is a woman all right eric wise the the attract the hot librarian reading hour yeah totally super fit mom reading hour they just harvest them from crossfit gyms across the uh country

hey dude how about uh how about our buddy travis's son it's amazing yeah truly truly a beautiful thing to watch a father's son crazy dream just come true. It's like a one in a gazillion, right? Even the route they took. It's what you, you know, it's unprecedented. Have you shared this story with any people? Like, have you been like, dude, you got this buff buddy who's obsessed

with his kid playing football and since he's yeah with strangers um but uh i don't know it's i think you have to know the guy because it's because it's so far out it's like it's almost impossible this kid was telling me that his four-year-old son was going to be in the NFL. I'm like, fantastic. That's fucking great. Here we are, the fuckers in the NFL. I never thought, no way, but I was like, you know, but here's my thing. It's the trainer in me. I took a sports psychology class once

and the woman up in front of everyone said that one of the critical features of a goal is to be achievable, attainable. And I was like, oh, well, excuse me, bullshit. That's just not patently not true. Greg, I want to tell you something. Your teacher hated you. All my teachers hated me.

I said there's four million girls with posters of Mary Lou Retton above the bed right now, dreaming of being her. And it's a pipe dream. They have no fucking chance, but maybe three or four of them. That doesn't matter. There's no point in differentiating between those that will get there and those that are inspired by it and learn. And I'll just take my case in point.

I was a good gymnast, far from great, but but a good one i knew a lot of great ones i took more from the sport than the great ones i got more out of fucking gymnastics than i don't want to say the name but legends legends you know got medals around their necks and shit right on the wheaties box i got more out of the sport than they did what you're saying is you took your lessons and the difficulties and trials of gymnastics and parlayed them into a you took them with you throughout your entire career which led you to in a coffee shop right in the CrossFit Journal patterns patterns for success in any endeavor across all patterns and paradigms maybe. And so that's what caused me in 95 to write that piece that was, I think, front page of Santa Cruz Sentinel. Patterns of success are most easily taught and absorbed in the physical province

and that's what i got at gymnastics and by the way there's a book there's a book called rings is about gymnastics and about ring men and ring people and it's it's fascinating but uh new book or old book it's uh it's i've had it 15, 20 years. I don't remember when it was written, but it's timeless in substance. But there's a considerable effort dedicated to the personality of a gymnast and to a ring man to some extent. And it all resonated with me. Do you know the author? Is it called Gymnastic Rings Workout

Handbook? I doubt it's that, right? It's a blue book. It sits right behind me in one of the fucking places I live. All right. It's not easy to get hold of. Hey, listen.

A million of you guys are going to ask me about that book. I know it. As soon as someone finds a link, text it to me or DM it to me so I can put it up there. Every time Greg mentions a book, I get my DMs filled with, hey, I know that book. I'll deliver on that with an ISBN number. Okay, cool.

I want to go back to Travis. I'm going to Scottsdale today, and I think it sits in the bookcase there in my office. You are going there? Yeah. By air or by land? Flying. Tomorrow going to Santa Cruz. How long are you going to be in Santa Cruz?

Briefly. I'm just rounding up stuff for this European junket awaiting me. Okay. You're freaking me out because I'm not in Santa Cruz. Are you staying the night in Santa Cruz? Yeah, but just the night.

Going back to the kids and getting ready for what's next. So you're going to make a circle. You're going to go Scottsdale, California,

Idaho. Yeah. Hey, going back to the dreaming thing, it's kind of like, do you think that that's a good litmus test for a dream? I'm just going to make this bullshit up. But like if 51% of the people don't say your dreams impossible or bullshit or look at you sideways, then it's not really a good dream. Like, hey, I'm going to go to space. You know, I was talking with with Pilot Mikey the other day in a chat.

I was talking with Pilot Mikey the other day in a chat. I told him that when these dreams come true, you look at people that have achieved inordinate success in any province, and it looks along the way like they're doing everything the hard way. Not towards that success, but the frustration and the sacrifices. And you look at it, and this is all consistent with Travis saying, all you have to do is make your kid do CrossFit and don't give him an iPhone, and he'll be the best kid in the fucking state. And that isn't an accidental part of Tyson's thrusting himself into the NFL and being accepted where no one was looking.

It's a wonderful thing. It's a wonderful thing. through is the family was frustrated with Travis in this part I relate to that he didn't go out and get a job at Starbucks so that he could get insurance for his family and have a regular nine to five and be putting food on his family's table and he insisted on you know taking the odd jobs here and there trying to make money winning arm wrestling competitions throwing arm wrestling competitions so that he could teach his kid every single year football, baseball, basketball. You know what I mean?

He wanted to be the coach of his kid. He put that up as a premium, and he got a lot of shit for that, a lot of shit. It was frowned upon, right, that he chose that path to raise his child as opposed to go out and get the job that has health insurance. It's cool. I like it. It's risky. My father, I've shared this with you before, and I think on air,

but my father said that his greatest surprise as an old man is that he was best known for being the father of his son, that that's the greatest father of his son. That's the greatest surprise in his life. You watch someone tinkering on something in the corner for 15 years where you see the fruit of it, and then all of a

sudden, there it is. It's like Billy Blank is going door-to-door trying to sell Taibo for 20 years. Within a five-year period he makes 500 million dollars off the fucking thing and it was a overnight success right overnight success think of how good you get it's like on your mormon mission knocking on doors delivering a message nobody wants to hear you can develop some people skills if you if you stay at that right yep yep yep yep this dude comes up to me yesterday at a gas station in the middle of nowhere. I don't know, 23-year-old kid, cornrows, impeccable posture, really well-built, thin, but really buff up top. You know what I mean?

Looked like a 100-meter sprinter type. And he says, hey, do you have any money? And I'm filling up my gas. And I said, what for? He said, I'm stuck here and I want to eat and I don't have any way out. And he looks all clean and shit. I'm like, oh. And I'm like, no, I don't. He's like, all right.

He's all cool. He's all have a good day. And he won't come close to my car. He stays like 10 feet away, like respecting my space. And I'm like, all right, cool, dude. And he's like, cool. And then he said, have a nice day or something. And as he walked away, I'm like, hey, you work out?

And he goes, no. And I go, do you wrestle? And he goes, no, I fought a lot on the streets. I'm like, oh, you're all buff and stuff because he looked all jacked. And he's like, yeah. He's like, I don't eat a lot and I stay in good shape. But I did have to fight a lot as a kid. And then we started talking.

And I ended up giving him $20, which was so great. I was going to ask, $5, $10, or 10 or 20 i was so uncharacteristic of me but i just loved his i loved the space he gave me when he asked for the money do you know what i mean like didn't come close to my car as he walked away he said beautiful family it was a trip it was so uncharacteristic of me so because you know i would rather you know reward the street musician even if i don't like his music you know what i mean i had a guy get off a bicycle at a del taco um with a hoodie on hood up and a mask on hands in his pocket look around hard and start walking over to my truck oh geez and uh i just couldn't i just i just couldn't get a put a good vibe on it it

wasn't nothing felt right so i did about, 15 feet back as he's coming. And he keeps looking around, right? Yeah. So, dude, you need to stop right there. You said that to him. Uh-huh. And he did. He seriously needed to stop.

Yeah. And he looked at me. He looked around again. And he walked back to his perch i i don't know what it was but it the look around right right is everything when i when i drove when i drove away from the gas station too i was at a stoplight and he's on the sidewalk and i look over at him and he sees me and he waves yeah just like it was crazy i i don't know i hood off hands out yeah eat away i'd die in for a fucking taco man right right i handed him 20 bucks you know right right

hey it didn't it didn't sound like that. It sounded like you made the right decision. Yeah. Overnight, a lot of people probably said to Tyson, hey, your dad was the world's greatest arm wrestler, is the world's greatest arm wrestler. Oh, I saw your dad on TV. Oh, your dad was in that movie.

And overnight now, it is going to become like that for Travis. His giant star is now going to become probably a tiny star, and he's going to be, oh, you're Tyson Bajan's dad. Right? Just kind of like what your dad was saying overnight. Yeah, he's super proud, and he ought to be. He's crazy proud. Hey, another thing that's interesting about that path is it could have just been over.

It could have been an entire lifetime of work, 20 years of just nonstop work by Tyson Bajent. Wins the, you know, the Harlan Trophy, the, you know, the Division II biggest award. Gets the title for most touchdown passes in ncaa history across all divisions and then it could have been over just over all you parents out there just consider sending your kid off to a small unknown school and his first year out of college he gets a job at 1.4 million a year right yeah how's that for does he have student loan debt? Not any,

no. That's why he chose that college. Cause it was right down the street from his house. Yeah. Um, uh, I, I, I knew having him on obviously was going to bring eyeballs to the podcast.

And already someone this morning is like, look, one of Chicago's biggest sports writers is quoting Tyson and and giving you credit from your podcast yesterday so i sent that to tyson i said oh shit you're gonna make me famous i'm so excited so excited for him uh hey and that's another thing by the way at 51 i'm more excited for someone else than I could ever be for myself. You know what I mean? Like I'm giddy. I was speaking to Dave yesterday about it.

He goes, God, you act like it's your son. And I do. I feel like that. I don't know why. I guess because we love Travis. For people who don't know, I've traveled the world with Travis and Greg. Like we've been, we,

we, we spent basically a couple of years inseparable, the three of us. So that's why, that's why Greg knows so much about Travis. And I do. Are just stories flooding your brain? Yeah.

Yeah. That's a, that's a one of a kind. Yon Clark. He's a one of a kind. He's a genius. Yeah, he is. I agree. I agree. A great thinker, right? He's a West Virginia hillbilly philosopher.

Yeah. Practical and logical. Yeah. Extremely practical. And all the bravado and machismo, and there's really not a lot of ego there. Right, right. No, he's a beautiful person.

He's a dear friend. I enjoy the hell out of him. I was talking to John Kramer yesterday. I'm willing to fire up the plane and go to a Bears game. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Yeah. Hey, and this is from a guy.

I didn't tell you the significance of it. Hey, and this is from a guy. I didn't tell you the significance of it. Dave and I were invited by the Raiders owners to travel with him to the Super Bowl. And I was like, oh, fuck, I got something going. We did a no-show. I'd been to the Super Bowl the year before and hated it. With you.

Greg, go ahead. Remember, I almost slid into the storm dude we we go out to dallas for the super bowl it was the the second quarter and i'm like greg the game started he's like oh we better get over there we get there at halftime to the super bowl this is the first game i think it was at dallas stadium is the first like kind of like unveiling of it, I think, or something. And then we made it through the halftime show and like What?

The whole thing was in disarray. They had to remove a whole bunch of seeds. To make smaller seeds to get more people in there, right? Yeah, and we sat near Snoop Dogg, remember? Yeah, yeah. And then we were there. We see the halftime show. We get there late we were there we see the halftime we get there late for that we get there for the halftime show then we're about three minutes into the third

quarter and greg looks at me goes ready to go get sushi i'm like totally when we left that was crazy you know it was weird there were there are 100 000 people there and i think 95 000 were watching the tv monitors i was no matter how hard i tried to tell myself to watch the field, I couldn't. Everyone was. There were people in the 10th row looking up at the screen. And it was cold. Yeah, it was cold.

And rainy, right? It was rainy or sleety or something. Yeah, we had to park a jillion miles away and walk. Jan Clark from the uk thank you i'm here to remind you about jake's question about statins for his dad how can jake convince him otherwise he's 65 and healthy oh the old statins in their head again yeah there's a there's a book written on that the big blue book and it's funny i should be better with the title because i wrote the forward but uh to the to the latest edition uh who's the author it's a it's a um an anthology if you will and uh paul roche put it together and it's that big blue book

and it has the delicious title of uh cholesterol cholesterol is not the problem and statins not the cure or something to that effect oh fat and cholesterol don't cause heart attacks statins are not the cure or something to that effect. Oh, fat and cholesterol don't cause heart attacks. Statins are not the solution. Wow, that's a mouthful. Who's the author? Paul Roche. Yeah, that's the book.

And in the latest version of that. And Lipid Lunacy is the current version of that. But here's a book. Yeah, you just purchased that in 2018, Seth. Is that what it says on there? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, this is

some history for us. Logically, it's a dead issue.ins are a scam the logic of it complete and utter fraud and uh i think that book exposes it perfectly did we have anyone come did we have anyone come to hq who spoke specifically on the statin fraud? I believe we did. Yes, several. Is there any video that anyone in particular, and I could somehow get people a link to it? Yeah, the CrossFit health seminars are full of this stuff.

Okay. David Diamond, Paul Roche. Remember Paul Roche speaking in our lunchroom at HQ? Yeah, he brought his granddaughter or something, right? Yes. He passed, right? He passed away shortly after that. He was in his 90s. Fred Cromero

is in this book. I'd say there's just been so many great minds that have dedicated their lives to telling the truth about metabolic derangement and heart disease. And all of it's gone fundamentally nowhere. Made some really good friends all around the world.

What's the statin study that's in Wikipedia that's just riddled with errors? They basically took the wrong information from it, the big study. Do you know what I'm talking about? It's not a stat. I'm not sure what you're referring to, and I don't want to run down the wrong road. Wasn't there? the material that crossfit published in 2019 on uh uh harvard nurses and framingham oh framingham the framingham study yes i'm going there there's you you need go no further than oofy ravenscob on that the cholesterol myths okay you can buy that book from Amazon or you can just get it online.

Dig around the cholesterol myths website contains the 12 myths and each of those, it's an odd site because it's way more active than you'd realize, but you start mousing over things and they're hot and click on it and you can get to the entirety of the book and all of his notes and references. And it's a masterwork. The response from the enemy to Ufi Ravenskog and cholesterol myths was to completely and totally ignore it. There's no criticisms, there's no challenge, but he had it figured out. Another one of our PhD MD friends. A guy smart enough to know things that others don't see and then brave enough amongst those that are

smart enough to say something. There's a lot of people that understand the underlying realities and know better than to say anything about it. The cholesterol myths exposing the fallacy and saturated the fallacy that saturated fat and cholesterol cause heart disease. I asked a friend in a text who's a prominent cardiologist at a major university.

If he'd been seeing an increase in, in mortality amongst young people. And you know what the response I got was? What? Nothing. Oh, just empty text. and I'm like gotcha

oh fuck yeah it could cost you your job right and if there was no you'd say no what makes you silent I just saw the nation's best high school basketball player died of cardiac arrest. 17-year-old kid.

I think he was top five. Okay, fine. Top five. Make top 100. Either way, it's just crazy. It's tragic. Jason Watkins. Please go to Vindicate to buy your Travis Mayer shirt.

Yeah, no problem. You filthy animal. Savon and Greg, I apologize for my interruption and pandering. Buddy, for five bucks, you can interrupt and pander all you want. Good to see you here. Who's Travis Mayer? That's the guy. He owns an affiliate in Georgia.

And he's a games athlete. And he's a games athlete. And he's a father of four. And a good dude. Been on the podcast a shitload of times. Just a good dude. Do I know him? I'm sure if you see him, you would recognize him. He's not a – even though he's been to the games probably six, seven, eight times, he's not like an outgoing – you know what I mean?

He's not a very handsome – what did you say? A picture of him? Yeah, throw up a picture. Yeah, let me show you. Great dude. Let's see. Travis Mayer. Let's see if we can find his Instagram here. Oh, here we go. Humble dude.

Let me see if I can find a bigger picture of him. Oh, no, here. I see a good picture of him. Here we go. Sorry, this is going to be small. There he is. Yeah, I recognize him. Yeah.

Had an injury this year. Didn't make it to be small. There he is. Yeah, I recognize him. Yeah. Had an injury this year. Didn't make it to the games. A little early for shirt sales. Eaton Beaver. Good morning, Coach and Seve. I just got back from Cabo. I took Seve's advice and was dropping 20s

when I got there great people oh I was telling him the story tip the first you know 10 people you see at the hotel and it's yours yeah and it's yours crazy how that works huh Mr. Beaver Sean Lenderman Crazy how that works, huh, Mr. Beaver?

Sean Lenderman. My father-in-law is on statins and blood pressure medicine. He became a TikTok scientist about the vaccine but refuses to research about nutrition. A TikTok scientist. I love that. Yeah, hey, honestly, it doesn't take 15 minutes of research into the statins and

man you'll start to you'll start to figure it out Sean Letterman again go ahead saw me had won the Ironman professional division as a 35-year-old, I think it was. And that same year was diagnosed as a type 2 diabetic.

And he's like, how can I be? And I told him, well, it's about diet and exercise. He says, my diet's perfect. And my exercising, no one on earth exercises more than I do. And so something's wrong. And his kid's got a PhD in astrophysics, right? And started a super successful mega company. super successful mega company two of them actually but uh it took him 30 days with his phd in physics to make sense of eating perfectly and exercising perfectly and having diabetes to come to the conclusion 30 days to come to the conclusion that he was suffering from carbohydrate toxicity and that his perfect diet was deadly. Tim Noakes did something very similar. He had a PhD, and in his case, MD.

But no, it's there. It's there to be found out. The truth is there to be told. And the amount of disease that's caused by refined carbohydrate fructose, let's go right there, caused by refined carbohydrate fructose, let's go right there, is just, it's almost inconceivable that we'd have in a single source so much disease. The latest thing to look like it's related to mitochondrial dysfunction and dysregulation is schizophrenia. Did you see that? I think I sent it to you.

No. Pull it up. Schizophrenia and mitochondria. News. And so you show a guy like Bob Kaplan that? And he goes, yeah, duh. He says, find a disease that isn't worsened, if not caused by mitochondrial dysregulation.

Find one. The first thing that pops up is our data gives strong support to the hypothesis that mitochondrial dysregulation is a contributor to the development of schizophrenia, said Jennifer Mule, associate professor of psychiatry, neuroscience, and cell biology at Rutgers Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and co-senior author of the study. I want to go back to those two people that Greg brought. Do I look surprised? No. Yeah. But I feel like I've heard you say this stuff as long as I've known you, this kind of – Dr. Michael Norton, who is a psychiatrist at UCLA, wrote a book in 95 or 96. It was Beyond Prozac. Two great books came out of the same. One was Listening to Prozac, brilliant book, amazing book. The other was Beyond Prozac.

but uh beyond prozac on early in the in the book what page seven and eight or something is a two page list of uh psychological disorders most of them you have to look up like wow people really rip their hair out of their head and eat it you know and he says that the most effective treatment to date has been the zone diet is developed by dr barryars, and he posits a prostaglandin theory for a mental disorder. That's not a different theory than this one. It's not different. It's the blind guys touching the elephant, right? They're just at different places. One's got the trunk, the other one's got the tail,

and they're all describing the elephant. They all have an elephant. They clearly have an elephant. And when you see the whole picture, yes, mitochondrial dysregulation, yes, glycation, the covalent bonding of protein to sugars, yes, yes, all of that, yes, decreased cell membrane motility in the vasovasorum in your brain and advanced glycated end products. Yes, it's all there. It's the elephant. I've made this observation on this show before. I have three boys, incredibly wild, always wrestling, always going nuts, blah, blah, blah.

But they don't do any of that chatter just like meaningless senseless chatter unless they have a bite of cheesecake unless they get some sugar the second they they then all of a sudden that senseless chatter starts they start just like they'll just be in the other room the second you know like after at a birthday party we come home and not only are they fidgeting with their mouths are going they're just like doing senseless chatter it's crazy yeah like one of my kids will gargle milk and then spray it all over the inside of the car is it physics it's crazy uh joe westerlin's trying to get on now uh he'll be on shortly uh jones uh call shot covid 2.0 uh colonel mcgregor on Tucker, epic Ukraine truth, arson is how climate change, Wagner chief in Africa, excess deaths. Oh, boy, Tank, there's a lot there.

Are they trying to – I haven't heard anything about a COVID 2. Are they trying to start up the masks again? Okay, I'll listen to that interview on Tucker. Those two people that Greg mentioned, by the way – thank you, Tank. Those two people that Greg mentioned, what's interesting is one of them set the world record for some – I don't know if we're supposed to get into details of who that is, but an incredible feat of strength that took like a month. And he was also extremely, extremely wealthy, and he had type 2 diabetes from eating too many carbohydrates while he set that world record which is kind of crazy and he's and then he went to market with a cure for type 2 diabetes which is the same you know and uh and the other guy tim noakes that greg mentioned is by many considered the premier exercise uh scientist on planet earth

today and like greg said he's a phd and md and yes pardon me he is that he is that and this the the country of south africa tried to fucking take away his medical license because he flipped the script on carbohydrates like he they went to war they tried to end his life with uh with funded by uh u.s academics and soda. We had to point out that Coca-Cola was part of funding the effort to take his license away through their Seve, what's that damn thing

again? Reps? No. No, no. That institute. It'll come to me okay this this guy this guy worked with the 49ers i mean he worked with everyone he was he was the guy when it came to exercise science he is the guy and soon as he realized oh shit and and he was a world-class uh marathon runner and triathlete i think but soon as he realized that hey carbs weren't the way refined carbs uh everyone turned on him the whole machine turned on him it's crazy instead of like applauding him they turned on him and this happened globally too it happened to gary fetkey in uh in tasmania

and it happened to uh chris didn't forget her last name. Pediatrician, one of the Scandinavian countries. I forget. We're dragging up past life stuff here. It's interesting. Yeah, well, it's still relevant, right? Because the machine's going back to where the money is. That's right. Treating metabolic derangement is at the heart of the global economy at this point.

And avoiding it, what do you do? What does a CrossFit trainer earn? That's where the money is. Speaking of CrossFit trainers, Joe Westerman's up dude Joey hey can you hear me okay without a mic am I good you are good your internet connection is a little spotty but so far so good okay yeah I uh I'm on my iPhone I'd rather not be I'm uh I'm having an issue with Chrome on my on my Mac here. All right. Are you near a router? Are you near the router?

Yep. This is as good as it's going to get, so hopefully the internet is – am I lagging? No, you're good. Hey, do you still work for CrossFit, Joe? Are you Flowmaster over there still? Yeah. I just taught a seminar. I just got done, actually. awesome i say just the last time greg texted me two days ago awesome awesome awesome awesome and how long have you been with crossfit oh let's see 14 years almost 15 years crazy and how many do you know how many seminars you've done joe um i'm over 400 i think i'd

probably be in that five club but when uh when i started multitasking uh in 2018 i dropped down to about two a month so i did the math the other day i was like i think right around the time i started going out to santa cruz on a regular basis and kind of splitting my duties i went from i used to do four you know four or five a weekend for many years so i've been about but i've still held two two a month for the last five years but 400 and you're a father yeah yeah i actually have a monitor right here i'm home alone so we'll see hopefully she stays asleep the whole time you have two kids you have a you have a uh a kind of a young kid and then a baby yeah so well i have an eighth grader and then i have a seven month old which by the way

the topic of the day you know what i didn't i think what i know what greg wants me to talk about today but i sent you that video of the backflip off the slide yes yes speaking of acl tears i didn't i haven't sent that to greg yet but that thing that kid's insane hey i just saw justin gaethje when I see your son do that, I'm like, uh-oh, future UFC fighter. He did a backflip off of probably like a six-foot elevation wearing Crocs on a slide with no one around. Just an idiot. Nonetheless impressive. Yeah, very impressive. He's in the eighth grade already, huh?

Yeah, wild. Wild. Reminding him every morning of the importance of showering and deodorant and brushing his teeth more important now than ever joe do you remember um meeting oh and you're wearing a garth taylor shirt uh a friend that probably of greg's that probably introduced me and you to him i did that for both of you actually i was like i have so many proprietary t-shirts in my closet i was like what can i wear i was like so i i was like what links both of these guys together besides crossfit it's like gee man greg do you remember how you met joe or where you met joe the first time do you remember well i met greg first at my level one but i i

don't think he at the time remembered that the second time we met maybe but you know we met a few times through those you took your level one from greg yeah the only lectures at my level one were greg gave them all on nicole gave nutrition and um dave ran the and then dave ran kind of the breakout to step. It was that in Santa Cruz. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah.

That's crazy. I got to have you back on and ask you some questions. There is no better trainer on earth than Joe Westerly. And there are, there are, but four or five people I can say that about. Well, thank you. I've got some faults for sure, but insincerity is not one of them.

Well, thank you very much. I've got my – I'm just a good thief. What's that? Got on a plane, took my family and in-laws and went to Joe and Libby's wedding. That's how important he is. You know a funny story on that?

My father-in-law at that hotel, my father-in-law inquired about getting the suite. This is how we got his RSVP before the RSVP. My father-in-law looked at getting the suite for the two of us. They were like, it's already taken. The way her dad works, he's like, no way.

How's that possible? I think I sent a text to Maggie and was like, did you guys get the suite at this Marriott? She was like, yeah. I sent him a text. I'm like, it's all good. It's all good. He hadn't even told you he was coming to the wedding but to the hotel it was booked. By the way, Greg going going to a wedding to get on a plane and go to a wedding

means he really likes you i almost find that hard to believe did you actually see him at your wedding oh yeah yeah yeah okay absolutely yeah he was at the um that's where he met my dad for the first time was at the prenuptial dinner or whatever the night before. Yeah, that was cool. The prenuptial dinner. That's where you signed all the documents so she can't take all your shit or you can't take all her shit? I don't think – no. But Greg's a lot like – you know, it's funny.

My dad and Greg are completely different human beings, but they both have the ability to talk to anybody about any topic. So they sat there and bullshitted effortlessly for about 30 minutes. It was pretty funny to watch. I didn't even hear a word of what they said. I just saw them talking for like 20 minutes and I was like, oh, yeah. Neither one of them is missing a stride here. Dude, I listened to your dad talk about how you dismantle a steel mill build a railroad up to it to take it apart and then pull out yeah pull up the track as the trains leave with the mill

i mean that was yeah you'd have to be you'd have to be thick or slow to not appreciate that kind of engineering and you know when humans act like like uh ants it's pretty crazy yeah and glibby and the kids will do uh joe when i when i'm when i met you you were a coach at uh you're an athlete trainer or a coach at the University of – was it Omaha? No, Nebraska. Well, Nebraska-Omaha was when you did that interview with me. Yeah, so they're part of the same system. Yeah, yep, yep. So Nebraska-Omaha.

And you worked with athletes of all disciplines, right? Football team, track stars, wrestling, the whole gambit of d1 athletes that came out of that school right yeah so i mean i can uh predominantly football um and then my first groups of female athletes were tennis players and then i worked with volleyball and softball and um so on the on the ladies side of the house, those, those were the three teams that I mainly worked with and then mostly, uh, football on the, on the, in the men's department. And then I, you know, we all helped each other with different things. So I worked with wrestling as well. Cause with Ricky, but, uh, and, and when you work with wrestling, that

was the, when you guys started that, that was also the first year that that team like won the national championships or something. Right. As soon as you introduced CrossFit to that team, they had great wrestlers out of there, but as a team in their totality, something happened that first year you guys were there. I can't remember what it is in the video. Yeah. So, and I'll, you know, I know where to give credit. Like that was, that's 90% Ricky, you know, so I played football there and and then so i naturally worked with football players more ricky wrestled there and um but yeah we all worked with them and they had won a national championship at some point in

time but in the time that he was their strength coach they won six out of seven so they won three and that was that bro then they got third and then they won three in a row, then they got third, and then they won three in a row. And I believe he credited that with bringing CrossFit there. Yeah, I mean, you can't replace sport techniques and tactics in a great wrestling program as well. But I think one of the things that they did, they brought the general, the GPP of the whole squad up. And then the nutritional component was huge too. He really helped them figure out how they could eat more and still cut weight and things like that. So a lot of credit to him in that regard. So I look up ACL tears.

It's a subject I've heard you and Greg talk about many, many, many times. I don't know if they're called tears or ruptures. I guess it depends on where you're reading. But and it won. The numbers are one hundred thousand to two hundred thousand ACL ruptures a year. And I know you have some in the in the state, in the U.S., right? I mean, that's correct – Correct. Sorry. Thank you. Yes. Yep. Yep. In the United States. And I know that it's been – you know, I know it's – I had a friend who played Division I soccer, and she told me that every single girl on the team, you could pull up their pants, and they got the line on the knee from the surgery. Yeah.

It's just – You used to – it's actually – I used to – when I was playing playing football you'd walk into the training room where everybody was getting their ankles taped you know did i lose you oh no no we're on here i'm here i'm here i'm here yeah all right and uh yeah it was just this is just personal you know personal experience you'd walk you'd be waiting to take a table to get your ankles taped and if the soccer players were in there you it was it was always really noticeable that the ladies how many of those scars right on the anterior part of the knee that you would see and um when greg sent me the article and said hey let's talk about this i naturally uh it's not like i sit around you know all day long and think about

acl tears so i said i sent a couple mutual friends of ours who played soccer in college. I messaged Kelly Jackson and Denise Thomas. And I just said, I go, Hey, Denise, did you ever tear your ACL? And she goes twice the same one, you know, and it's just like that. It'd be an unscientific thing to say that every single one of them has one, but the, you know, a thousand anecdotes is evidence. And it's like every other gal you talk to that's played long enough, they either did or their roommate did or four of their teammates did. That's for sure. It's funny. I've, I've heard so much about ACL tears and I've never even

actually Googled and looked up an image of one until last night. And I did. And I see, and you have some theories on why this happens right why this happens and it's in it's um uh significantly more uh prevalent in in women's sports i got some data on that also happens to women twice as much basically as it happens to men six six six wow six to seven yep you'll usually hear that two to eight times more likely range, and that's probably accurate. I think more men tear their ACLs just because there's more opportunities, right, more guys engaged in rugged play.

But as far as on a per capita basis, ladies are definitely more susceptible. And then when Greg mentioned soccer, numb for women soccer's number one volleyball's number two for men football's number one soccer's number two so soccer is a big a big one obviously across both sexes yeah and why do you think this is happening you have some theories on this well um i this is nothing new and i messaged our friend sean rocket as well just to like confirm you know i'll tell you i'll give you a list of the anatomical um things that have been cited now just like the problem with most science i mean none of the studies can really be called 100 reliable but um the big one in the 90s was Q angle. So it was the Q angles,

basically, when you draw a line from the front of the hip down to the kneecap, and then down to the notch that sits on the tibia. Essentially, we're talking about hip width and how that cuts in from, you know, the hip down towards the knees. That was like the big one that they told us know the hip down towards the knees that was like the big one that they told us in the 90s i think that's a factor now but they've shown that when they take various uh cue angles within men within male groups and within females you can't call that the one singular um reason but women do have wider hips um there you go yep And so essentially in layman's term, knock need, we know that's a big problem, but as a contrarian, much like Greg is, and we all are just because the hips are wider on average in women, that doesn't mean that's the only reason

that you're going to see that knock knee movement. I was just texting Sean. I said, show me a volleyball camp or a soccer camp with 100 high school female athletes and have them do a series of jumping and landing and deadlifts and squats. And I'll show you 100 knock knees. Right. Like you'll see knees caving in. And but if show me a hundred female CrossFit athletes and you won't see that. So it can't just be the gender component, if that makes sense. Um, you have, what's called the con you could look this up. You have, what's called

the condyle width. Um, so those bumps, when you pull up that behind the knee, So those bumps, when you pull up that behind the knee, there are differences between men and women. And so you have these two little bumps that sit there, and they'll measure the width. That is different. Women tend to have smaller ACLs. And then the last one, you will see more anterior tilt in females than men. So like if you look at a woman from the side, it looks like she's sticking her butt out, you know, anterior tilt.

There's some things that that supposedly does that can indirectly make you more prone to your knees caving in that same knock-kneed valgus motion. So I would be lying to say that this is not. And like if you ask someone who's repaired a ton of these, they can speak to this evidence. And if you were to add all that up, it probably would, you know, you add it all together. It could answer for why it's more prevalent in women. But, and then, then here's the other big one, quad to hamstring strength of the ratio, right? Are you quad dominant or hamstring dominant in in other words. Are you cell phone dominant? Are you internet dominant?

Are you connection dominant? Wait till I read through the comments. You're going to love the comments in a second. We go through this list of things, and they're all factors. And I think logically and scientifically, I'm good with all of them except the last one, the quad hamstring imbalance. I long thought that was bullshit. I got a host of reasons for that. We'll come back to that. factors in the in the uh occurrence but it doesn't speak to what we might do about it

and that's sure yeah i think joe has has terrific insights yeah and like missing well and i'll just oh i wanted to throw all that out there because i don't know what the comments say i don't really care either but um uh it's important to throw it that out there because I don't know what the comments say. I don't really care either. It's important to throw it out there. We're laying a good foundation for the picture. This is all good. I'm just laying this foundation because none of it really matters. So if all those things are true about the differences between men and women,

the stability of the knee needs to be greater, and so we need to be stronger and stronger by a significant margin and how we go about getting strong and how we define strong all matters. And I would agree with Greg. And I told, I think I was telling Sean this to via text. I think also that the quad hamstring thing is kind of bullshit because the only way they really determine it is using a biodex machine, which is really like a leg extension, leg curl test. But that's not how the hamstring actually functions

in a person when their feet are on the ground anyway. So I don't know where you want me to start with my thoughts on this, but I'll start as simple as possible. If you're weak, you're more likely to get injured. And the best way to get strong, if we're talking about the knee specifically, is to do squats and deadlifts. And squats are not squats if they're not done below parallel. And you will get quad dominance when you are above parallel. And the minute you crack the parallel line and below your hamstring is contributing to that effort um significantly and so that's like where i start the conversation with uh prevention and recovery can i let me ask you a quick question joe let's say you do let's say you do squat but you don't squat below parallel are you actually possibly exacerbating

the problem well you're you're you will end up with i mean you'll end up with bigger quads and smaller hamstrings unless you're doing a whole bunch of other work to strengthen your hamstring you can end up we can end up with with a leg able to exert forces that it can't accommodate yeah yes okay okay so uh go on i apologize joe go on yeah no well your acl test is like an anterior shear so they'll grab your ankle and they put their hand behind your calf and they pull your they pull your leg forward right so that's that's anterior shear well when you when you when your quad contracts it's going to take your ankle just like when you get your reflex tested at the doctor's office and it's going to extend it forward but when your foot is in a fixed position when your quad contracts it's going to pull it's going to basically do that shear test it's going to pull that upper part of your your shin your tibia away from your knee and so um that like if when you

squat a heavy load that shouldn't be on your back if you can't carry it below parallel and you stop above parallel then you have a whole bunch of anterior shear and you don't have the counteraction of the hamstrings on the backside pulling it back into place and i don't know if that's exactly what greg was saying there but exactly right and you can feel that in a wall sit where i have a you know that horrible fucking exercise where i take the hamstring and the glute out of uh supporting yourself and put it all on the quads. You can feel that shear in the knee. What's that weird? They call it the perfect squat. You guys know what I'm talking about, where you stand inside of it and you can lean back. It's like you

put your feet inside the anchors and you lean back and you do a squat. You can look this up right now on YouTube shorts and you'll find several people blowing their acls while they go about doing that it's called the perfect squat machine i think it's called the perfect squat i can't remember that might be just proprietary but um i'm looking i'm looking for images i just see a bunch of things that look like smith machines and shit you know what i mean like same kind of thing it does the same thing yeah we need the sum of the vector forces to come to zero in perfect balance and uh with your ass against the wall um hack squat smith machine that fucking thing any of these things um the sum of the forces isn't

zero and i swear to god you can feel it anyone right now just do a wall sit stay there for a while and feel what you're feeling in the knee it's not healthy if you've got laxity in the knee there it is you're like wow this is destructive well and on the other end of that what we do know is like now not all squats are the same but if you do a back squat just below parallel your acl virtually is doing nothing you're not squatting in your knees is the slang term so um people won't have acls and they can still squat massive amounts of weight because again it's just the mechanics of the situation um but what's funny is i went on a little when greg said hey let's talk about this

and i used to talk about it all the time i went on a little when Greg said hey let's talk about this and I used to talk about it all the time I went on a little hunt for it and Greg sent me the the article was to the women's world cup I think there was like 32 of them that weren't present because of ACL tears and anything that's come out recently or all the way back to 10 years you look this up and the reason I listed all the potential reasons that uh all the anatomical differences is because every one of these articles will go through that same list of things. And the one thing that no one argues about is that this can be prevented through strength training. But the bigger conversation is what does strength training actually mean, and how are these things defined? does strength training actually mean and how are these things defined but I was shocked to find that in the last four years anything that you stumble across ultimately comes down to some

type of thing that is uh what's the best way to word this that women are a disadvantage culturally that they don't have the access to the strength training. That's like everyone, whether it's from ESPN, CBS, like at the very end, it'll be like some, it's like a sexist thing. What culture is that? What culture is that? Well, hey, I'll, I mean, it's pretty crazy to read, but what's funny as contrarians, I think there is a place to talk about

the differences in sexes that are not anatomical but um if you hear me out uh you let's just take a soccer team college women's soccer team there's not a single lady on that team that shouldn't at least deadlift twice their body weight like just real quick to put that in context you're talking about women who are now playing soccer at the second highest level on planet earth and by the time you get to this level a healthy strong soccer player whose balance should be able to deadlift twice her body weight meaning she shouldn't be morbidly obese she should have a good body weight and she should have a strength that's commiserate commiserate to that um uh to that okay go i just wanted to make sure i put that in perspective for people okay and i think this is an important conversation and it all it'll

actually turn into love for the ladies like in a in a respectful way not not uh not a from a place of of chauvinism and it's an important conversation so um because double body weight deadlift is not an overly impressive feat but you would find that the majority of uh collegiate female athletes can't do it and men for that matter either um but yet i just watched a 62 year old female the other day at the local affiliate deadlift well over double body weight. And she did not come from an athletic background. Wow. If you deadlift and then a week later you deadlift a little bit more, that process will continue for probably 100 exposures, right? So you quickly get to these numbers.

And so the point I'm making is that's not happening. And so then there would be some equivalent amount that they should squat as well and do so below parallel, uh, double body weight deadlift is not much to ask. And it's not much to ask well before the career is over. graduate, this is probably after a year or two, they should be at that number. And ideally, they would be there before they get to college, right? Like many of our young CrossFit teams are. And I did something interesting. I looked up this topic, why so many women tear their ACLs, after Greg sent me the article. There's the top five searches. And I looked at what studies were cited. So something took me to why we know the answer is strength and conditioning, but why are women at a disadvantage in this regard? Took me to a study done at Michigan State, and I'll conclude this story pretty quickly. They still cited another study, right? It's like people citing our DeVore injury study.

You're like, this thing gets, like your site. I'm like, oh, this isn't the study. This isn't the study. This isn't the study. And so I traced it back to an article and a study conducted by ESPNW. I think that's ESPN women. And they did it.

And it was fascinating. They did interviews of 102 division one female college athletes. And you can look this up. And some of the interviews were through survey monkey and the other ones were in person and they asked them 13 questions. And these were athletes from different sports. And I have these numbers. I wrote all these numbers down and you can look it up. And so I

might be off by a few percentage points, but these are division one female college athletes and 68, uh, the question, do you feel the need to be pretty? 68% said yes. Do you fear being too bulky? It was like half of them said yes. Um, Have you ever been told you're fat by a coach? 25% of them said yes. Do any of your teammates have an eating disorder? 35% of them said yes. Seems low, seems low. it was at least a third that said yes and um so if someone were to come to me not a crossfitter but someone were to come to me and say hey my son's 185 pounds he wants to play division one football within 18 months as he's a linebacker uh what does he need to do i said well he's got to be i don't know 225 pounds and he needs to deadlift, start the conversation at double body weight. And well, what would what would you say?

Well, you need to get you need to get stronger. You need to get bigger. And the only way you can support that is through consuming a very large number of calories, for lack of a better word. And a large percentage of that needs to be animal protein and so i sent another friend of ours who played division one soccer who's on seminar staff and i said how much do you weigh now she's she's qualified for the games before she's 135 pounds how much did you weigh when you were a college soccer player? 110 pounds. And I had an eating disorder half the time. And I ate less than 2000 calories a day. And the smallest contribution of that was protein. And so I just felt the need to talk about that today because everything I

stumbled upon talked about this idea of sexism and the lack of ability to be exposed to weight rooms and things like that. But I just thought it was funny because CrossFit is one of the safest places for ladies to lift large weight, gain muscle mass, eat large amounts of protein, and squat below parallel and make it your monthly goal to see your deadlift numbers go up. You know, the party line is that there's no differences between men and women and that being male or female is actually just a state of mind in the end and anyone that's able to show any differences where you can't deny it then well it's the it's it's the men's fault yeah this is great it's just classic bullshit this is the this is is the religion of mommy has a cock.

But in terms of those differences between the sexes, focusing on that is to put too much attention on something you can do nothing about. That's right. What you can do is radically improve uh the knees strength and stability yes that's what we do we do that without thinking about it yeah and and that is the you could there's where your conversation of broken science and just a bunch of useless bullshit filling 98 percent of a text in the formal education of this line of work, you know, physical education, exercise science. And I couldn't agree with you more.

And by the way, data that comes from a survey, you're not doing science. Correct. Correct. But it isn't science. Yes, sir. And I will say this too, no matter what you throw at me about the difference in sexes, the answer is still going to come back to be the same.

So men are stronger than women even before puberty. On average, there are outliers. I don't care. So what's the answer? Make them stronger. All of them. Right. And men are stronger than women after puberty. I don't care. The answer still makes them stronger and we can absolutely do something about that. don't care the answer still makes them stronger and we can absolutely do something about that and we're going to do it in the exact same way by the way and this gets us right to a better beautiful if i can bring up some some history here yeah please please bring it up yeah do you want me to pull it up or not. It was written, right? Yeah. It was in the program to the games at Carson, I think, our last year there.

Okay. It's funny because I remember it is in the video. Let me see. Yep, here we go. Here we go. Hey, Joe, while i bring this up is there a specific program can you point to something and be like hey in this journal article right here there's a program that is a back squat and deadlift program that i think like will get you on your way to uh uh giving your acl um hedging against injury for uh soccer, soccer players, female soccer players,

or is it just going to your affiliate and sign up now? Is there like something you could point to? Well, I would say that, uh, the, the issue of going into an affiliate when you are a collegiate athlete, just let me say that is difficult because you have an obligation to show up to your designated team training. If you are a young, if you are the parents of young kids, if CrossFit programming is done correctly and you can get them there on a frequent enough basis to where they're exposed to squatting weekly, deadlifting weekly, then that is a tremendous place to start. For high school weight training coaches out there, everything you know about percentages

should be thrown out the window and complex programs. And if you squat with proper technique to a full range of motion, and then the next time you do it, you add five pounds to it, that process could probably be followed throughout the duration of a high school career and that sounds really really simple but that's all there is to it and and when you say deadlifting um all the different deadlifting the sumo deadlift the trap bar deadlift that's the one you stand in the center right the the regular deadlift and i would squat same thing front squat back squat overhead squat you do them all i would throw that trap bar away and melt it

down and use it for something else yeah melt it go ahead send it to my dad who's in railroad salvage to melt it down and steal and sell it back give it give it to the fire department along with your smith machine yeah that's right that's about it hey i thought the trap bar supposed to protect your back because it keeps it more over your midline you know stupid think about holding imagine thinking that holding on to an awkward non-ergonomically perfect tool which a barbell is an ergonomically perfect tool and holding on to you know 400 pound weirdly shaped trap bar at the very top and how unstable that is i just i've never understood that one are things are things you're trying to pick up are they in front of you or are they

around you where you're the center of the mass right yeah it's it's ill-conceived yeah i mean the deadlift's a beautiful thing it's a class c lever if you were to have you know learn about mechanics and the deadlift's just one of the safest it's this it is this it's the safest way to pick something up because it's really the only way to pick something up that's right you know right it's built into our dna we don't have that's not a this isn't like uh juggling or hacky sack or the bosu ball yeah yeah it's it's not a contrivance it's built into your dna if you were to show an intelligent life force that say was physiologically slime but intelligent if you were to show them a skeleton of a human being they would through computers be able to come up with the deadlift the squat

clean the jerk the press all those things you'd say this thing does that yes yeah it's time to do that it's like picking up a a watch and and taking it apart and see how it works, you can tell what this thing does by its structure. And we are deadlifting, squatting, cleaning, jerking, pull-upping, climbing, throwing, running human beings, creatures. I would say the trap bar deadlift, if anything, is more dangerous because it gives you the false sense of security if you believe in its utility i mean you you there's a symphony of movement in the hamstring the quads and the glutes that is largely not at all understood and you confuse that quartet uh trio you just stick with the big pieces you confuse that you've got a i've got a i've got a trio playing with noise canceling headphones on they can't hear each other and the trap bar deadlift does that wall sits do that that stupid lunge where you step forward and then push back

does that that's the space saving lunge that's the lunge they wanted me to do in spa fitness center you don't have to walk around you can just push step forward and push back that's the same thing that has all the charms of i watched denise austin once explaining that if you don't have lat pull down you can just push dumbbells up like this it's the same exercise i'm like holy cow this is a tv expert here wow yeah i mean denise austin was who who's that that was some that was a tv famous girl yeah she's come she's got to come back i saw that she's uh relevant again somehow wow wow Wow. Wow. Joe, in the – I thought I had also heard you talk about the importance of ankle flexion and basically reduced ankle flexion, maybe even wearing shoes somehow would go upstream, hurt the knees, hurt the hips, be bad for the back. It's a conversation you and I had many, many, many years ago. Does any of that ring a bell with you?

Oh, yeah, yeah. And that was as simple as, you know, if the shoe industry over the years, the big bulky heel, and again, this isn't't controversial if you have a big bulky heel on your achilles tendon is going to be shorter all day long while you walk around now if i'm going to run a really long distance i don't mind a big cushy heel if that was what i was going to do for exercise so i don't want to get into like the whole five finger shoes versus what should i wear for running or anything like that. But if you put a young child who already is probably really sedentary, if we're looking at modern kids, the average modern kid, and now you put them in there and they're in a big bulky shoe, then if you were to look at your own foot and you're just a little bit like this, well, then you're going to shorten that achilles tendon and so the direct

result of that on exactly a particular injury that no i wouldn't speak to that that's too there's too much going on there but uh you have this neutral position where your your achilles is right here and now all day long you're making it shorter um yeah that's a problem so especially if you're not squatting now if you're wearing those bulky shoes and you're dropping down into below parallel squats well you are stretching your your ankle and your achilles so it wouldn't matter but it's the combination of just sedentary people and then just living inside of those shoes yeah uh i'm gonna i'm gonna read some of these uh comments here greg did you want did you want to read the Better Beautiful before I go to some of the comments? I don't see a need for that, but I'm indifferent.

Okay. Dildo, I strained my right ACL playing soccer. Another comment from Dildo. Dug my toe into the ground crossing a ball and twisted my knee. It was never the same speed-wise after that. Haschick, full ACL, tears in 94-98, firefighting and hiking.

Started CrossFit in 2009. Everyone told me it would wreck my knees, but they are fine now. What about that? What about that? If you don't squat, you're broken. If you don't deadlift, you're broken, even if you have no symptoms. You have all the orthopedic surgeons in the world look at you if you do not squat you're not ready for activity if you don't deadlift you're not ready for activity you're

going to get hurt when you try to do something yeah i mean even and i don't want to cut the even at the highest levels of athletics and like uh like said, there's a lot of men that tear their ACLs. So there were 327 ACL tears in the NFL between 2013 and 2019. That's a lot. You know, there's only 43 guys or whatever it is now on each roster. So even then, even at that level, and 75% of those were non-contact. So I agree with Greg. I don't care how athletic you are, what kind of genetic endowment you have,

if you're putting these awesome forces on your knee, awesome meaning these great forces on your knee, you're playing with fire if you're not squatting and you're not deadlifting. And heavy for that matter. You know, let me shift gears here. There's a sport where the goal is to destroy joints, and that's jujitsu. That's what we're after, right?

Study how an elbow doesn't go and you've got to move, how a shoulder doesn't go and you've got to move, how your foot doesn't go and you've got to move, and they're doing that to each other, yes. And what do you do about that? So there's only one thing you can do you need to strengthen the joint that's right and that applies perfectly to soccer football and golf we had an acl tear at a kettlebell sir kid was sitting cross-legged stands up and oh fuck goes down and i was like that's classic if he'd had the kettlebell in his

fucking hand it would have been a kettlebell injury oh yeah yeah yeah this is fresh as it gets right here there's no fruit in looking at the how it happens um there's i don't think there's fruit in looking at anatomical differences. You need to strengthen the joint dramatically. And you just answered this question on screen too. Andy Bostrick, how do you help rehab an ACL injury for someone where surgery is not an option? Squats and deadlifts. Will that piece that's torn in the picture, will that eventually just grow back together on its own will those heal and not if it's a complete uh rupture this is where we should have sean

rocket come on for this one but uh uh no i mean but you don't need it to squat hey you know the the talking to the doctors i remember i told dale sararon once he was trying to tell me how to run the company. And I told him that as the lawyer, his job was to sit at the back of the bus and look out the rear window and start addressing the people I've run over and not tell me how to drive the bus. That that's the lawyer's job, that the lawyers don't actually sit at the adult table in a real business. You're not going to be part of the decision-making. I got the same thing for the doctors. You can fix my fucking mess, but don't tell me how to avoid it. You've got no insights there, including my dear friend, Sean Rocket.

We don't go to orthopedic surgeons to find out how to not get hurt. They'll tell you to stay on the couch. They'll tell you to sit on the couch. I asked Dale, would attorneys have approved me putting a workout for the whole world to see and say, do this? And the answer is no, that wouldn't have you'd never have gotten a green light. Siobhan, I saw that comment on the screen that someone who's a physical therapist said to. Yeah, there's a lot of utility in that for the other person who asked the question if they tore their acl and they say surgery is not an option i'm not saying load it up heavy as hell

in every case and start squatting right away depending on the nature of injury you want passive range of motion back to full range and then you active range of motion and then you start strengthening it through a full range of motion so i wasn't trying to say in every case but to say you have to have that's an undeniable dog yeah well and most people that tear their acl still have full range of motion right away i one of the most educational experiences i had one sec one second joe let me make sure i read this because some people won't be able to see it on the screen they'll only be listening. Joe's referring to a comment. It says, backward arrow modern fitness. I'm a physical therapist. You want full range of motion first, then build strength,

then add cutting and running. Joe, all you. Yeah, no, I mean, I think depending on the injury, that's going to be like the logical progression that you're going to follow in most cases. All I was saying is one of the more educational experiences I had as a young novice strength coach was we had a lineman tear his ACL and he was waiting surgery and I came in the weight room and he was working with my boss at the time and he was just, he had

four plates on each side and he was just burying it as a squat getting ready for the surgery with no pain and doing real heavy step ups and things like that so some injuries don't result in a big loss of range of motion just depends on what it is you know but after surgery you're not going to have full range of motion so yeah you want to work back to uh full range before you load it too heavy of course i i don't know what world uh by the way thank you for this squid pro quo this isn't an attack on you but i don't know what world this is she says you you will see videos on youtube that women shouldn't squat and women shouldn't lift heavy weights i think you can find anything on youtube i don't live in any world where it's even

remotely frowned upon granted i'm in the crossfit space but where women shouldn't lift weights like my my entire world every woman i'm around from my my mom to the little kids that my boys do jiu-jitsu with all the girls are strong and and lift objects and move weight like i don't that's not even in my none of this is even in my world i i could find anything on youtube i just don't see um i don't know what world this is maybe it's the dominant world it's just not i haven't created a reality to me where women aren't fast strong and incapable i i don't know where that is do you guys see that in your lives i mean i go on greg's wife's instagram the other day, and she's fucking – has learned how to ski behind a boat with no rope.

I mean, she's a mega athlete, and she's – how old is Maggie now? Is she 40 yet? 38. Yeah, everywhere I look, women are just crushing shit. I just don't – I can't. What CrossFit did for women in regards to normalizing lifting and lifting weights, period, let alone effective weightlifting, you know, and it's okay to eat and eat meat, you know, like the vast majority of, and God bless bless you i'm not insulting anyone if it's your um if you're a vegan i i got all the love in the world for you but way more females are vegans than men um so what the normalizing of meat consumption eating large amounts of food being proud of it lifting weight so no i't – because I surround myself with mostly people

that still think this way. But, again, my wife's a police officer. Former games athlete. Yeah, but – so there are – my jiu-jitsu community, my law enforcement family, a lot of those preconceived notions are still there, the negative ones, you know. A lot of those preconceived notions are still there, the negative ones. And it shouldn't even exist at all in athletics, but me reading you the results of that survey, it still is, and I don't get it.

Hey, but I also want to say, I bet you if you were to ask men, I bet you men's eating disorders are really high too. And also in professional sports and things like that. I bet you it's really high. It's surprisingly high. Yeah. The problem here is the non-functional aesthetic, which gets back to a better beautiful. Well, and real quick, Siobhan, like, so there is a body image issue with young men and it's probably, they're less likely to admit it. Yeah. There's a huge body image issue with young men and it's probably they're less likely to admit it yeah there's a huge body image with especially young men i mean the number one reason high school boys take steroids is body image issues but yet but if we're talking sports and sport

performance this is a different story because they'd be okay with adding the muscle right right right it's it's and then they're okay with eating the food if it means adding the muscle so um that's just but i think they but i do think that they fall in the same bucket i don't think i don't think that um i think body issues i don't think are exclusive or dominant or women have any stronghold on that for some reason the society wants to paint it that way but i think dudes are tripping just as hard yeah maybe it's going the other way but they're still tripping just as hard yeah all the reason i said that is because if you tied it into an acl prevention with uh high level fleets it's not gonna get it it's not gonna get in your way as much so if you said

i don't want to i don't want to tear my acl again and i'm like all right your disorder prevents your acl tear congratulations okay are you okay with gaining are you okay with eating a bunch of meat and gaining 20 pounds of muscle by squatting and deadlifting and they'll be like oh yeah okay you know what i mean like their body image issue is not going to get in the way of that fair our culture um incentivizes a non-functional unhealthy aesthetic. Yeah. And it's on, it's on Vogue. We can see it in, in, in top models. And it's, it's,

it has a counterpart in a cyclist that tells me he wants to get better. And I tell him that I'm going to add, I want you to understand, we're going to put seven to 10 pounds on you, but your power will increase by 30 to 40%. And then you have to have the brains to be able to work through that being okay. Uh, Mason Mitchell, female 17 year old soccer player that I trained can deadlift 300 and she's skinny. Yeah. It's awesome. Exactly. I mean, that's why and that's got to be double body weight. I'm guessing easily more than double body weight. I'm going to claim she's

less likely to have an ACL tear. The physics of that to me are undeniable. And maybe more importantly, less affected by it and more quickly to recover. The one thing we didn't talk about is that more yes you're talking about more ladies tear their acls seven than men and it's true but they're also less likely to return to activity after acl tears women oh interesting

yeah wow uh i i there's some comments in here i don't really understand but i do want to say this uh my wife is a avid crossfitter uh i don't know she started crossfit at let's say 31 years old and uh i i have to believe that the reason why she was able to have um kids at 39 and at 43, just from just regular, you know, laying around, having sex, just eating right, had the babies on the living room floor, it was because of CrossFit. It added to her capability and from the attracting me to want to have sex with her to having the babies and to giving them birth vaginally and breastfeeding them. I just want to add that. There were some questions in here about what it does to women and

shit. I mean, everything great. I can't think of one drawback. No. What is this? Licks, Greg and Joe are desperate for women to be in the same space as men at the affiliate,

giving no weights to the possibility that spaces should be separate. I don't even understand that. I'm not following that. I don't understand that. What do you mean? Like they can't work out in the same room? Like when I would go to those Jewish weddings where they separate the men and women by a row of sheets? Yeah, I don't is this an international um commenter like from a certain from a foreign land like a

place where men and women can't work out together i'm not sure i don't know it's our affiliate in dubai no they can't you'd have can't. You'd have to go more conservative than that. They work out together. I'm not... Yes. Oh. Licks. Well, hey, this is probably argument also.

And I think the entire US Army test trap bar deadlift. That's a terrible idea. Golf Foxtrot yankee uh attaches the ego to the trap bar uh he says if you have a big ego and want to quote big deadlift numbers use a trap bar yeah it's not it's not a deadlift when you're using a trap bar i get what he's saying though i like it uh jenny uh vacaro i fully tore my my ACL crossfitting. Oh, I've never heard anyone tearing their ACL crossfitting. Yeah, you have.

I think Miranda Oldroyd did. Okay, you mean at the games? I think. Okay, yeah. Fully tore my ACL crossfitting with six years in CrossFit, but I never got the surgery and was able to stabilize using CrossFit and strength training. Deadlift doubled my body weight at the time, but nutrition was off for sure. Yeah, and if this helps people, like, you're more likely to be able to go without that surgery if you're not doing something that involves, like, multiple planes of motion.

So usually the ACL is going to get torn because, like, you're in overextension with rotation right you're you're you're landing with your legs straight while leaning over to the side so soccer and football are like an amazing recipe for a knee injury because there's all these different directions of force so it's important to know that um it's like most people don't blow their backs out by just rounding their back or just overextending their back. They do it when they're rotating and flexing. So I just wanted to be, you know, clear about that. Like it makes perfect sense that you can not have the surgery and end up doing deadlifts and squats. Could you have the surgery and run full speed and plant and cut on a soccer field? Those two different those are two different questions yeah if you you take you take someone

who's who's doesn't have an acl and they've got a 500 pound squat you could as they just stand on that leg with with nominal force laterally get the knee to buckle. You're not hearing us right if you think that it sounds like there's something being misunderstood here. What we want to do is make the joint as strong as possible to reduce the likelihood of the thing blowing out. It's blown out yeah and once it's blown out backward arrow modern fitness this is the physical therapist again my wife tore her acl was doing full workouts prior to her surgery yeah 100 but like what greg's saying you're not going to do a single leg hurdle jumps on one leg

without an acl uh tr You may not even like someone accidentally tripping over your foot. Right. Yeah. I tore my ACL getting up off all fours, Trish. That was waiting to happen. Okay. Squid Pro quote. happen uh uh okay uh squid pro quote i agree save on uh 100 but the average woman who doesn't know anything sees that uh and believes it right okay i see what you're saying the average woman sees it on youtube that they shouldn't lift weights and work out and believes it yeah that

well that's a fucking tragedy they need new friends. Quit watching YouTube unless it's this podcast. Janelle Winston, I love what CrossFit has done for me and my view of what I should be and do. I lift heavy and feel empowered. I move fast and feel like I'm still young. I eat a lot of food and feel healthy. Right on. Natalie Bates, let's talk about the egos of sports coaches

and their lack of knowledge on the importance of strength and conditioning. They are misleading parents and their athletes. Love you guys. What is she talking about? What is Miss Bates talking about here? That's a whole podcast in itself. Like the amount of, oh, Greg saying he's, you know, he's going to go to Sean to fix the ACL, but not necessarily to do the strength training that's going to prevent it. Sport coaches stepping into the strength and conditioning space and interfering with that is just – it's always been terrible.

I haven't worked in that space for a long, long time. Can you give me an example of what that looks like? I'm completely naive to it. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I'll tell you something that has absolutely happened to me in the past, and I guarantee it's happening to some poor bastard right now. You are a strength coach of a tennis team, and that's what the university is paying you

to do. And so your plan, if you're a good one, is to do logical things like squats and deadlifts and get people stronger and try to get the tennis players won't have pull-ups when they come to you so hopefully you can get them pull-ups by the time they graduate and the tennis coach walks in and he basically explains to you that he wants you to have the girls or the guys hold bands or dumbbells and mock the tennis swing motion you see what i'm saying here? Or he's going to, the idea of sports specific training is maybe the worst and one of the most detrimental pieces of terminology that ever happened in strength and conditioning and sport performance, right? So, and every sport coach,

it's really important that they always want to tell their strength coach something that's connected to that something that's connected to this idea of sport specificity um that and then this is the big one oh i don't want my insert insert uh athlete here i don't want my volleyball players lifting like football players like they don't even know what that means when they say it all they mean when they say that is they don't want their athlete doing squats and deadlifts. That's what they mean. So this is like pitchers not wanting or baseball teams not wanting their pitchers lifting anything overhead. 100%. That's what it is.

Or like the idea of swinging – this is a problem for baseball coaches and baseball strength coaches. of swinging this is a problem for baseball coaches and baseball strength coaches the idea of swinging a heavy bat to it's one it's it's one of the dumbest things ever like for like is it is it sports is it is it are you learning how to swing a baseball bat or are you doing strength training which one the reality is you're doing neither one and it's a bad idea exactly right yeah and and so that whoever that person said that that's such a that is such a difficult i i get you feel bad for most strength coaches that this is what they have to overcome where the margins of competition are tightest where where the difference between where two-tenths of a second can be the difference between where two tenths of a second can be the difference between a gold and a bronze metal um the entirety of the opportunity to make a difference in strength

conditioning comes out of gpp and that's and that's and that's there's an assumption here already of this about as hard a job as it gets to move someone from bronze to gold and it's it's it's true there perfectly and it's also true of of your first day in the sport yeah i mean sport practice is profound and it's a separating factor and gpp is profound and it's a separating factor but what exists in between is a bunch of bullshit that strength coaches are doing and sport coaches want their strength coaches to do, and that would be the space of sport-specific strength and conditioning. I don't know. I hope I'm articulating that well enough, but it's like one of the worst.

It's one of the saddest stories in sport performance. There's a ton of questions coming to my mind to kind of want to push back on that but i think you're right it's a whole it's a whole it's a whole um it's a but i think it's a whole podcast yeah um steve flores uh happy birthday happy birthday buddy yeah christine young says happy birthday matt burn says happy birthday. Matt Burns says happy birthday. Bloss does not say happy birthday, but he says Joe Westerlin should be here more often in his opinion. Bailey wants to know, Licks, why would we want to be separate? Robbie Myers says Licks is a troll. No, Licks isn't a troll. Licks is a regular here. There's some point that he's making that we're missing.

Jake Chapman from the Isle of Man. My wife was an Olympian. She still acts like it. Breaks herself off now and again, but she's a beast. Mike McCaskey. Licks, don't you have a wife to go beat? That's a little, that's a little, that's a little. Oh, no. Forget Drew.

I like it vanessa sway fit doing crossfit was the reason i could have a baby naturally at 46 years old science yeah you know like eating the food you're supposed to eat that you were designed to eat and doing the movements you were designed to do is why you were able to do that like that would be the biggest thing that greg did for the world is i knew as a young strength coach and i was really confused of why people were working out the way they were working out so i was like wait a minute how come you people aren't doing squats and deadlifts and doing interval runs and things like that? And I was like, but why can't anybody make this happen in the private sector?

Like, athletes will buy in, depending on the sport, right? And it's like, why aren't people doing this? I mean, that's really what CrossFit did is it's like in the most beautiful, simplistic way. Like, let's – so that's – I don't know. That's just the side note of it. Steven Flores pushing back hard on Joe Westland. I swing a heavy bat every day, Joe. It's stuck between my legs. I had a blind spot in my, in my stance. He called me on it. Sorry. Sorry for Joe's closed mindedness.

The physical therapist chimes in again. Backward arrow, modern fitness. Agreed. Strength coaches should make better athletes. Sport coaches should make them better at the sport. That's very good. Yep. You know, the jiu-jitsu impact, Seve.

I was watching, standing there as a spectator. I had some of the world's best jiu-jitsu competitors as clients before I went and watched them do their thing in their setting. And the warm-ups were excessive. And by the time they got to the jiu-jitsu part, the skill part, everyone was a little beat up. jiu-jitsu part the skill part everyone was a little beat up we morph that into a quicker warm-up longer effort in the uh in the technique and then and then roll for some period of time and then on the way out the door we're going to do a crossfit workout we're going to hit you with fran or something like that and uh produced world champions and never, you know, what would we have done in CrossFit to mimic the jiu-jitsu movements?

All that thinking is ill-conceived, and it is for every sport. Yeah. You would do better to not know what sport the person was in for most people than to know. Wow. The movement that... I had thereek national basketball team tell me we figured out we're doing the jujitsu program what the fuck's up and i go here's the deal there's no basketball program you moron you mean you were training them and they found out they were doing the same thing the jujitsu

guys were and they got tripped out yeah they got bummed out and this is after guys told me hey i'm jumping higher than ever before how do you know he goes for the first time in my life i've seen down the rim i've never gotten my eyeballs over the rim ever it happened i looked down into the into the net and he wants to know why he's doing the jiu-jitsu program. Phillip Hunt, my teenage niece, just signed up for a swimming-specific training program. I heard it would cover strength and nutrition. I looked into it and was pleased that a few of the coaches have CrossFit training.

The shirt that Joe Weston is wearing comes from Garth Taylor Jiu-Jitsu in Santa Cruz, California. I had Garth on the CrossFit podcast many years ago. Garth was the first guy from the United States to win the heavyweight Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu championships in Brazil. I think he won it actually, the first guy ever to do it in three belts. I want to say maybe purple, brown, and black. Someone can look it up on that, but he could not win and he had tried several times. He ran into Greg at, I want to say at Spa Fitness. He asked Greg to coach him. He immediately said he started deadlifting, got his deadlift up to 500 pounds, started back squatting.

The next year went to Brazil, and guess what happened? He won. Tons of stories like that. Tons of stories like that. Yeah. Make yourself a better athlete. That's why people take steroids. It makes you a better athlete without without even exercising so if you don't take the steroids you you make yourself a better

athlete without the steroids that's and that's what you do and then it translates onto the field you know uh i don't know if the reason barry bonds broke the home run record was because of his steroids but i knew i do know that he could have done the same thing with squats, deadlifting, bench press, and enough food. Fair. I like that, Joe. Natalie Bates, 499. Licks, giving space to women isn't CrossFit's job. I think that should be left to individual boxes.

I host a ladies-only lifting, but that's because it's my passion. Yeah, fair enough. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I have the same interest in in segregating populations in my gym as i would in a math class seating people based on their ethnicity or gender you don't do that you don't put all the indian kids in one corner so the white kids don't cheat off them no but i would be i would be smarter to make sure I sat next to the Indian kid Right, right

Joe, thank you Yeah, we gotta have you back on How fun Joe, you're the best And the kid's got crazy depth to his bench too We could have done the same show on insulin Yeah, let's do it Let's do it insulin yeah if you're not joe or is it what's that the subject's just kind of dead for you right no i like i mean you can get to the bottom of

and you're like okay no i'm just i'm just uh intellectually curious so i try to you know just like fitness i try to be a jack of all trades, master of none. It's a little more boring on the academic side of the house. You have to force yourself to do it. It's fascinating how practical being smart is. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of plagued with curiosity. I don't know what my natural measured intelligence is, but I know that every time someone says something

and I don't know what the fuck they're talking about, I obsess the entire night trying to figure out what it was about to the fault of other things. I remember you used to be the insulin wizard. You would just cruise over to Greg's house and walk in the door and Greg would be like, watch, here we go, insulin. And we would just hours of insulin talk. It was awesome. Well, I don't want to, I gotta, I gotta go. You guys got to go. But I, the other day I was teaching a seminar and someone was like, well,

how do you, I answered a question about fasting and then there was an insulin tie in there and they were like, well, Jason Fung says this. And I've just been so dang lucky. I'm like, yeah, I know. I texted him and asked him that clarifying question i was lucky enough i'm not special but i was lucky enough to meet him and i asked him these questions and so it's like well it sure helps to know more about fasting and insulin when you have the phone numbers of gary taubes and jason fong and uh you know i feel spoiled in that regard and i could list 20 more names because of Greg. And it's like same thing with strength conditioning side. So surround yourself with smart people and, you know, then you can just claim you're smart for stealing their information.

Just to clarify, so people know, those are the people that Greg used to bring around HQ and serve up to his staff. So you hear about continued education or doctors going on golfing trips and getting their continued education, whatnot. Very common at HQ to have lecturers, doctors, scientists, experts in their field from the beginning, from when I first started there in 2000, end of 2006, Greg would bring experts around and when we could have Adam as the, as the staff at CrossFit and there's Joe still kept in touch, obviously with,

he just named dropped two of them. And I appreciate that. I want to run off some names if I can. Dr. Jason, Dr. Michael Eads, Dr. William Davis, Professor Thomas Seafree, Dr. Sarah Hallberg, Professor Nathan Jenkins, Dr. Zoe Harcombe, Gary Taubes, Robert Lustig, Dr. Vladimir Subotin, Dr. Timothy Nolik, Dr. Zoe Harcombe, Gary Taubes, Robert Lustig, Dr. Vladimir Subotin, Dr. Timothy Nolik, Dr. Jim McCarter, Professor David Diamond, Professor Dominic D'Agostino, Dr. Gary Fetke, Dr. Paul Roche, Dr. Malcolm Kendrick, Dr. Asim Malhotra, Dr. Terrence Keeley, Dr. C. Glenn Begley, Dr. Georgia Ede, Dr. Kristen Kearns, Professor David Diamond, double listing on there,

Ede, Dr. Kristen Kearns, Professor David Diamond, double listing on there, I think, Gary and David Johnson and Jay Wartman. Those are friends. And I became friends with them in recognition of their contributions to, I guess you could probably lump most of that under metabolic derangement or delusions. And they were pivotal to the to the CrossFit effort once upon a time. And we're still in communication with those folks. I know Greg said those names and those were highly focused on PhDs and MDs and people in the nutrition space. But just to give you an example, it wasn't just that. It was Dave Tate, one of the strongest men who ever lived. It was Dr. Romanoff, creator of the post system. And I think I went to the Olympics in the high jump.

It was Buddy Lee, a guy who jump roped his way back to the Olympics for the second time, as I think maybe the oldest wrestler in United States history to be on the U.S. Olympic lifting team. John Hackleman, maybe the greatest UFC coach that no one talks about. He had go over to share 15 years years ago, and then brings him back 15 laters. He's also the found who's the great UFC fighter? Chuck Liddell.

So Greg was bringing around just not these scientists, but like people in their discipline who are the best at what they do. I just wanted to make sure I threw that. Yeah, and that list of people, you made staff of those people, most of those names you gave um right right the other people i mentioned were of that uh smarter than everyone else and braver than the others that were as smart well if you would have if you would have stayed and if you would have stayed the owner of crossway you would have made

those people you just mentioned staff also we were we were maybe moving towards that that still could happen in a different different guise but they're all they're all acutely aware of the deficiencies of academic science and its epistemic debasement which is a subject for another show yeah guys thank you yeah go ahead joe go ahead no go ahead joe we're not you know that's the common link so like the guys on the strength the martial artists and the weightlifting teachers and the mark ripitos and the jeff mart tones and the mike bergeners even though they're all different and we don't agree with 100 of their views those people on the strength conditioning side of the house that that's they sift and see

through the bullshit in their industry in the same way that, you know, Thomas Seyfried and Gary Taubes and Michael Eade see through it in theirs. You know, that's the common link is like here's 99 percent of just inefficiency in those fields. And, you know, so that list of people, I've never had a discussion. I hadn't had a discussion with any of them about infectious disease, not once. It turns out that we share the same view of the COVID and the response and the public health. Never had had a discussion with them about infectious disease. It was never a crossfit topic. But as this thing came down the road in discussion, it's like, wow. that thing came down the road in discussion. It's like, wow. I got, do you remember the guy in Turkey? That was the one that was actually using some of Seyfried's principles.

I do. Okay. On dogs, right? Was he using it? Was the guy dogs? No, no, no, no. People, people. He still does to this day. And he's a really nice guy. And it was funny. I had an extra copy of one of Jason Fung's books. And so this guy's wheelhouse is cancer. And, you know, conservative Muslim man who lives in Istanbul and his wheel, he's an oncologist. And I was like, Hey, Doc, I don't know if you'd be interested in this. I go, but this is an extra copy. I just had it. And I gave it to him and he reads the back and he's like, there's nothing in here. That's not common sense. And so I had to get clarifying questions because he's not a nephrologist. He's, you know, he's, he's not, he doesn't sit here and think about insulin and glucose reduction for the sake of fat loss or, or, or diabetes treatment. And he, he like speed reads the back and he goes to the pathology page

and he's like, yeah, it's perfectly correct. I don't need to read it. He's like, but then he like taps me on the shoulder. He goes, but thank you for the gift. And it's like, oh, this guy knows. And I bet his opinions would be similar to what you just said, Greg, on infectious disease as well. You know, anyway. said, Greg, on infectious disease as well. Anyway. You study enough pathological science, and we've had ample opportunity to do that. And you learn what science should be. And I was just in a discussion yesterday, it was with Dale Saron, I was saying that it's amazing how much physiology has been learned by studying pathology and trauma. We know what parts of the brain do what by people that take a blow to that part of the brain. That's how you figured out.

And a lot of what we know about how science works, and I mean us, people that I'm hanging out with and talking about broken science to, we've learned through dysfunctional science. So you got a good p-value and it's peer-reviewed. What does that mean? Not shit. It's important that clinicians do that too. As a clinician, the study you believe should be has to be the one that comports with your empirical clinical experience and if it doesn't it's essential that you abandon it regardless of the p value

or the or the uh prestigious magazine in which the thing appeared. Your first obligation to science is to be empirical. That's first. It all starts with observations. Those come into measurements and then you build models. That's the process. That's the science that replicates. Yeah.

It's a good end cap to the conversation too because the first things you learn in seventh grade is about when you're talking observation and measurement that's got to be precise when you're talking about dependent variables and so the fact that there's 99 out of 100 people squatting or not dropping their hip below the knee there's no quantification in there so any study on whatever anyone's ever told you about squatting is bullshit because the depth wasn't measured you know like you forgot seventh grade science the minute you let an athlete in front of you squat to whatever depth

they want on any given rep you know joe do you know why there's never squats in the CrossFit Games? Why? Because of the challenge in judging. You mean like air squatting? Why is there a challenge in judging? Because it's really not hard with the pull-up and shink him over the bar, fucking not, right? But there's that iffy space.

But the whole reason there's an iffy space is because we are all acutely capable of avoiding below parallel because the work gets harder. You feel it. You know it. You know that first rep on the thruster where you're putting out what seems like a whole lot of effort for no movement, and then you have to really make it go, you know? Yeah. That's what happens below parallel.

And we used to tell people that there's a reason your squat stops high there's a reason and you're the reason and it's because you don't you don't want to feel that feeling i understand it you feel disadvantaged below parallel you are you are well even and even uh subconsciously your body says stand up now because it's harder if we go lower. Absolutely. That's why the only iron crosses you see is in gymnastics where you're rewarded for it. It's incredibly inefficient. So your body's not going to go, hey, take these rings and go wide.

Hey, Joey, tell me another super contraction of the simultaneous contraction of the lat and pec. It's kind of a weird movement. It's on the shoulder. Like on the chin up? No, on a cross. To have complete pec and lat. Oh, tell me of another.

I see what you're saying. Yes, I heard you wrong. Yeah, 100%. I could argue against the functionality or the health of the movement. Man, I tore my, I fully ruptured my pec. And the other day someone was like, well, what movements are you back to now? And I was like, I don't know, but I'll tell you the pull-up is going to be the last one I do. And they were like, your pec's not even involved in a pull-up. And I was like, all right. and they were like you peck's not even involved in a pull-up and i was like all right i don't know whether to open up an anatomy book or tell you about the time i got rabdo from doing a pull-up workout in my chest or um you remember rob miller's three types of

pull-ups west coast rob the blonde one yeah three weighted pull-ups five strict seven kipping 10 rounds i got rabdo in my chest from that and i was so confused for a couple days i'm like i guess i didn't really pay attention in amp 101 but like yeah it's uh we've had we've had exercise scientists explain that there's no abs in the glute ham sit-up because you're working that you're not there's not a contraction of the of the of the uh we're not flexing the spine yeah the whole time what they fail to observe is that uh there's an enormous contraction of the rectus to keep from uh dismembering dearticulating the spine yeah uh the those that have believed that that wasn't a good ab exercise

includes the guy who filled his scrotum with a gallon of fluid from the draining of his abs into the scrotum on an exercise um uh i it's too bad you don't they don't you don't learn all these things on day one when you you go to you know your anatomy class because i was i just saw a video of a guy snapping his hamstring while back squatting and i couldn't believe the hundreds of comments that said this makes no sense your hamstrings not doing anything while you squat fuck yeah uh anyway thank you both yeah joey dude thank you great show any time i get to spend with you is a blessing joe we'll do it again we'll do it again yep good to see you both always and let me know if you want to run some tests we'll figure out what's up with your computer too next time before we go on but your phone was great by the way your connection only improved

which is crazy, because I was like, oh, shit, I'm going to kick Joe off. But it got better. I just did a security update on this laptop last night for work. I don't know. It's probably an easy solution. I was just trying to get on here in time. All right.

All right. Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Evie. Bye. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Joe Westerlin, seminar staff, Greg Glassman,

founder of CrossFit, and me. That's it. Licks, great episode... Great episode. You three are

woke as heck, but oh well. Is that a shit sandwich? It's like, great episode you three are woke as heck but oh well is that a shit sandwich it's like great episode you three are woke as heck but oh well that's kind of open face sandwich I keep trying to think what we said that was woke I'm open

totally open I'm willing though also to bet you you $100 that you read into something, that you're trapped in your head. I'm willing to bet you $100 that you're trapped in your head. We didn't say anything woke, but you're predispositioned to take something and spin it that way. Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, we have an incredible moment on the show

david weed great show dude wow wow buddy uh first of all uh segregate genders oh i have no idea what you're talking about gender is imaginary so i think what you mean is segregate sex when. I have no idea what you're talking about. Gender is imaginary. So I think what you mean is segregate sex. When Greg said he doesn't want to segregate sexes, just like he doesn't want to segregate race, that's woke. I don't think so. I don't think that that's woke in the slightest.

Oh, David was hacked. Holy shit. All right. I'm open think that that's woke in the slightest. Oh, David was hacked. Holy shit. All right. I'm open to that. Woke would be woke is when you say one thing like I'm against racism because I feel sorry for dumb Armenian people. That's woke. You're the one insisting that they're dumb Armenian people, but you're hiding under the guise that you feel sorry for them. We must have affirmative action for the Armenian people because they're dumb.

But it's a good thing, but we want to help. That's woke when there's the contradiction, when you're the person holding the person down but claiming that you're virtuous and uplifting them. That's what woke is. I don't think – maybe we need to agree on that. I don't think maybe you know what the definition is or can give me an example, but also – but I'm open to changing it so that we can get on the same page. but I'm open to changing it so that we can get on the same page. You think that men and women should have different drinking fountains? Is that what you're saying?

I'm open to hearing your reason why. I think Greg, and I can't speak for Greg Licks, but I think Greg is all for segregating based on sex for dressing rooms and bathrooms and changing rooms. There's a little wiggle room there. It's a small business. They might only have one changing room. You know what I mean? Like a single shooter. Or if you only have one bathroom, it could be multiple sex but don't interchange sex and gender gender is a big foot talk we don't it's just it's nonsense talk uh okay here we go uh licks thank you for the adjustment for for me i appreciate it men and women are different and some spaces in society should be segregated for each sex. Yeah, I totally agree. 50-100%. But I don't think a weight room

needs different bars for men and women. Is that what you're saying? I think it's fine using the same bar. I don't even care. I'll use the fucking women's bar. I don't care. I don't care. They need a different track to run around, you know, a single shooter, just like, you know what I mean? Like you go to a coffee shop and they just have one bathroom. They just got one, one, one potty single shooter.

I don't know. I'm trying to figure out what I should do right now. I want to read these. I want to read these. I want to read some of these comments to you and show you what it looks like when people respond emotionally, but I also kind of want to hang out with my kids right now. I want to see what's going on with my wife. You guys care if I call my wife real quick? Here we go. I'm surprised Greg's wife didn't come in and turn off the rings on his phone.

Remember she did that last week? Yeah, Elise Garberdow, I totally agree with this this if a woman feels more comfortable going to an all-women's class that by all means go yeah totally but some of us women do not want to be segregated in the weight room yeah yeah i agree hello you've been feeling damn yesterday uh i went on a walk with my kids, and he said, hey, I told them. I told them. I told the kid. I said, hey, don't bring your shoes, and he brought his shoes anyway.

And then on the walk, he said, I want to take my shoes off. And so I said, yes, put them right there. No one will steal them. And then, of course, this morning, my wife goes and takes my shoes. Hey. Hey, good morning. Hi. What are you guys doing?

We're finishing up Kumon. Oh, okay. Sort, good morning. Hi. What are you guys doing? We're finishing up Kumon. Oh, okay. Sort of finishing up. Oh, shit. Dildo says Seve calls his wife and Dave picks up. Oh, that would be awkward. That's imaginative. Yeah.

That would be very weird. Okay. So I'm going to fool around here for a few minutes with the crew. And then. Okay. Take your time. Where did you guys walk this morning? Oh, you walked the dog.

Yeah. And then Joseph was like, I don't have shoes. And I'm like, well, you don't need shoes right now. And then I remembered he left them. So we decided to go see if they were there. Okay. I'll take them to one of these stores here after. Okay.

Come on and we can get some shoes or something. Yeah. That's a good idea. Okay. Okay. I'll see you soon. Thank you. Okay.

Love you. Bye. Love you. Okay. I'll see you soon. Thank you. Okay. Love you. Bye. Bye. Love you. Bye. Deeply offended that he called me woke. That hurt. That hurt licks.

That hurt. That wounded me. That hurt. That hurt, Licks. That hurt. That wounded me. That hurt. Okay. I just want to read this. I want to finish this thought that I started the show with. There was this video that I was talking on a podcast, and then I made it into a little sub clip. Basically, why would you, why don't you take your kids to a Amish reading hour or it's just some Amish lady reading to your kids.

Why do you serve your kids up to a man who's obsessed with dressing as a woman? And, um, uh, and has an unquenchable desire to be with little kids. Why, why are you serving your kids up to that?

It's very interesting that it's always men, but obvious to many, to anyone with a brain. Sorry, I know that's offensive and mean, kind of mean, but it's the truth. Someone wrote in the comments here, this lady, Emily writes, maybe you could have an actual conversation about this once you learn the difference between a trans person and a drag queen.

Hey, I'm totally open to me not knowing the difference between a trans person and a drag queen, but there's something that they all, that they have in common. And you know that's what I'm referencing, and so you're trying to change the subject you're attacking me that's called ad hominem you know what i'm talking about you know that i'm saying that it's both men who want to dress as women and you can be able there's differences

yeah there's a difference between a weed whacker and a lawnmower too they both have one rule don't put your hand near them while they're turned on. I mean, you have no pushback, so you're attacking me. Men have been wearing dresses, skirts, and makeup and heels since the beginning of civilization. That doesn't mean it's okay. Your justification for serving kids up

to pedophiles, your justification for that has been going on forever? Another just a total miss. A crazy miss. And it has nothing to do with sexuality in the slightest. You don't think that a man dressing up, you don't think, let's talk about some things that men do that don't have anything to do with sexuality. Well, you come up with some shit, right?

Right? Well, you come up with some shit. I'm going to explain to you that it absolutely has to do with sexuality. If you're a man and you're playing woman. Oh, sorry. Oh, crap. I need to wear headphones at the gym. Oh, meaning this is someone near you shouldn't hear this conversation. Some drag queens are gay, lots more straight.

What does that matter? Now you're conflating it. I don't care whether they are straight or gay. How does that have anything to do with anything? I have no problem with anyone who's straight or gay. I have no problem with any men dressing up as women. Zero. It's the kids' part.

It's the kids' part, Emily. You've still not addressed me you've been triggered by something i've said i get it i get it i've said something bad about someone throwing an apple through my window at my house and you love apples so you're telling me how healthy apples are and i'm telling you i agree with you i. I love apples too. But I'm not talking about my love for apples. I'm talking about the one that someone threw through my window at my house. That's where the Taoist saying comes in. I'm pointing at the moon and you're staring at my finger. You do not control the fucking conversation just because you're having some delusions about what I'm saying. I know, Blas. I'm troubled that Sevan has to explain this. I know. It's crazy. It's crazy that I have to explain it. But I get it. But here's the thing. I'm glad she wrote this. I actually should thank Emily because these are important things that need to be talked about.

So let's be clear. It doesn't matter to me the difference between a trans and someone who wants to dress – a man who wants to dress up as a woman and read to little kids. I'm talking about the commonality between them. It doesn't matter to me if it's been happening since the dawn of time. There's lots of weird shit that's been happening since the dawn of time. And I don't care whether they're straight or gay. It doesn't matter to me either. That been happening since the dawn of time. There's lots of weird shit that's been happening since the dawn of time. And I don't care whether they're straight or gay. It doesn't matter to me either. That's not relevant to what I'm saying. I'm talking about someone who's trying to introduce kids to something that's not healthy for kids. And then it says, like conservative darling George Santos.

First of all, you're crazy if you think George Santos is a conservative, but also I don't care. By the way, George Santos is also gay, so are you attacking gay people using your logic? Because I know why you're bringing that up because you think I'm conservative, and so you're bringing that up as like some sort of attack on me. You're just nuts, dude. Emily, you're totally missing the point. You're just nuts, dude. Emily, you're totally missing the point. And then she goes on to say, and if you'd ever educate yourself on what drag woman who wants to stand right next to my child and read to them. To help build confidence? Is that what someone told you, Emily? Confidence for who?

For the cross-dressing male, the tranny, or for my kid? Who's it supposed to help build confidence for? Being comfortable in your own skin? We've already established they're not comfortable in their own skin. They're completely covered in fucking makeup with a fucking wig on. We've already established that. What are you even talking about? You don't need physical combat to learn those things.

Violence impedes learning those things. Jiu-jitsu is not about violence, actually. I recommend having a watch of Feminist on Cell Block 9 for lessons on the two. Oh, great. Wow. Then someone goes on to say, listen to this, someone goes on to say, I genuinely expected this video to be about your children on children's Instagram account of their lives. There's nothing inherently perverted about drag, but I assure you there are lots of pervs on social media looking at children's accounts. You could be 100% right. I could be doing everything wrong, and it's not the first time I've heard it by putting pictures of my kids up on Instagram doing skateboarding tricks. You could be totally right. There could be perverts out there watching it. You could be 100% right. The thing is, the thing that you're missing is I am not taking my

kids to a place where you've admitted it seems like there are perverts and serving them up to perverts. Do you see the big difference? You're basically – you're also doing ad hominem. You're trying to attack me because I may be doing something wrong by posting stuff on my kid doing skateboarding tricks on Instagram. I'm open to that. Maybe you're right. But please, don't confuse that with the distinction of people trying to virtue signal by bringing their kids somewhere where there's men dressed as women with an unquenchable thirst to be around kids. Call her. Hi.

Two things. One for Emily. Both things are for Emily. One, I live in George Santos' district. Nobody likes him. Everyone knows he's a fraud. So her point is not valid. She's getting the biggest outlier of a republican to show oh like your boy george santos no he's an outlier no one wants him here everyone and no one believes he's a republican either by the way no one believes he's a republican but it doesn't it doesn't matter but no one believes that you know why he ran as republican because the area around where he sat in representing was oo losing for Republican leadership because of what was happening around us. That's the reason why he's Republican.

And number two, but the drag queen stuff, there's a local bar restaurant over here that had drag queen Sundays. They are the biggest proponent of law enforcement and doing the right thing. The reason they have drag queen Sundays at the bar and restaurant is because there's a need for it in itself. And guess who's not allowed? Minors. They're not allowed to have kids there, just adults. And hey, and that's cool. I'm totally cool with that.

A hundred percent. Do your thing. Do your thing. That's cool. I'd even go to that. I'd totally go to that. I'd totally go to that. She's wrong. She's wrong. And if she wants it, she should call up and have a discussion. Listen to this person. Listen to this person once again.

Just flawed thinking. Listen to what this person says. How many kids have been molested at drag shows? How many kids have been molested at church? Oh, so let's just say that it's 10 to 1. Let's say you're 10 times more likely to be molested. First of all, it's an insane comparison, but let's say you're molested 10 times more at church. So what? I'm not bringing my kid to church to be molested. Philip reposted a story. Where are all the drag queens at the nursing homes?

Where are all the drag queens at all those other places, not schools and not libraries, where they can push this stuff onto kids? I don't get it. Yeah, I don't get it either. Licks says, at what age should kids be allowed

to attend a drag show? Listen, there's a difference between taking your kid – like I would take my kid to a musical where all the females are being played by men. But am I going to – there's a difference between that. Yeah, that's nuanced. Like I said, I don't have an issue with people dressing in costume and whatnot. I have an issue with it being used as somehow tied into reading at the library to little kids. There's something not right there. It's not right.

How come they – hey, here's the thing thing what if there were 50 different reading hours what if there was like the amish lady reading hour the uh the jew with the fucking black hat and the doily reading hour what if there was like the arab reading hour and then all of a sudden one of them was like the mentally ill reading hour and it was a transgender person cool at. At least now we got a whole range of things. Why is it just the mentally ill reading hour? And why is it not being called that? And why is it for little kids? Fuck, dude.

The thing you posted and showed on the show with the quote-unquote normal lady reading to kids, I'm sorry, but that looks normal. When you have someone in drag reading to kids. I'm sorry, but that looks normal. When you have someone in drag reading to kids with that scary makeup, for the average person, that is not normal. So why

is the left normalizing this? Stop normalizing it. It's not a thing. It's not a thing. Thank you. I'm sorry. Thank you. Bye, Seth. I'm not taking my kids to – that was tongue-in-cheek. I'm not taking my kids to jiu-jitsu because I want them to be, quote-unquote, around sweaty Brazilian guys.

That was supposed to be part of the bit, the funny part. The thing is this. The example is this, big picture. I bring my kids to places where I want them to, I want there to be an influence on them. Right? So I take them to the beach. I like the influences there.

Playing in the water, playing frisbee, being physical, being one with nature, right? I take my kids to, I don't know. I used to take them to dancing classes before COVID happened and the dancing class shut down. Why? Because I wanted them to be around dancers. I wanted them to be around dance instructors. I take them to the skate park. Why? Because it's outside activity. They can do it by themselves. It's fun. It's hard. There's a steep learning curve and they can build some lifelong skills around it. I have my mom over to teach the boys piano. Why do I do that?

Because I want them, I mean, you get it, right? I want them to be around their grandmother, who's a part of my family. They can learn, they can bond with someone. They can get familiar with being around people of all different ages. And then they can learn the piano. It's like, why would I take my kids to the library around someone who's mentally ill? Someone they're not all mentally ill. OK, 89.7 percent of them. Who's a man who dresses like a woman who probably probably should. How long do you think it takes to get ready like that?

Let me go a step further, tell you how fucking crazy I am. I'm not really interested in my kids hanging around anyone who spends an hour getting ready to go a step further, tell you how fucking crazy I am. I'm not really interested in my kids hanging around anyone who spends an hour getting ready to go out in public, period. How about that? I just don't find value in that. I don't want my kids to be burdened by that. How about that? How about I start there so they don't get hung up on the drag thing? Dude, I don't care how many people get molested at the church. That doesn't justify me. That doesn't like, well, church is worse than drag shows.

Fine, you win. Now what? I don't care. I'm telling you that that is a fucked up place to take your little boy. There is no homeostasis with raising kids. You're either helping them or making things worse. There is no homeostasis with raising kids. You're either helping them or making things worse. There is no homeostasis. Philip Kelly. God, I love this kind of thinking. This is a cool, I like it when, this is, I love this kind.

This is cool. I don't know why the comments won't come up. Something's wrong with my computer. I'll have to read it to you guys. It says, oh, here we go. They don't have reading the comments won't come up. Something's wrong with my computer. I'll have to read it to you guys. It says, oh, here we go. They don't have reading time at drag shows. Why do they need a drag? Why the need for drag queens at reading hour?

Yeah, they don't have reading time at drag shows. Why the need for drag queens at reading hour? There's no kids at drag shows. So you're bringing the drag shows to the kids? Fucking what the fuck is going on? drag shows. So you're bringing the drag shows to the kids. Fucking what the fuck is going on? Because, you know, Kevin, I'm just going to take a stab at it. The CK Kevin, why is this so hard to understand? There's this desire to be accepting of everything. And I get that. I have that desire, too. I get it. You want to accept everything. I'm going to go back to the apple.

Someone threw an apple through my fucking window and broke my window at my house. It's nothing personal against apples. Stop. Like, I don't want apples to be thrown at my windows. But seven, why are you being so, why are you against apples? I'm not. I'm not. I'm cool with apples. They're totally cool. They're cool in apple pie. They're fun to eat.

They're nutritious. I like the green ones. I like the red ones. I just not going to accept the ones being hurdled at my house, thrown through my window. But, Sevan, that's not very accepting of you, except all apples.

All right. Golf, Foxtrot, Yankee, Seve, the boys want to go to the beach, I know, and I can see the sun's out. I wish you could see how cool this setup is that CA Peptides gave me here hey listen i really screwed myself um you know what i did i want to tell you the schedule i i i text uh suze this morning i'm like oh my god the whole schedule is full why did i do that this is so dumb i'm on i'm i'm in i'm not

in my home studio and I have all these people on who deserve the best of me. Tomorrow I have Alexandria on, the founder of Wolverine, which I'm super duper excited about. Everyone wants to start a supplement company, right? I'm so curious to talk to her.

It's going to be good. Then on Thursday, I have Adam Klink. He probably deserves more. Then on Friday, I have Pamela Gagnon on. Gagnon on. Gagnon on. Pamela Gagnon on. She's the gymnastics expert over at Mayhem Empire.

I wanted to have her on. I've been talking about her for over a year. Probably even back in the CrossFit podcast days she got a great instagram account saturday should be fun josh with a fertile fluffy duck who knows what the fuck we're going to talk about i'll open up the phone lines i think we're just going to hang out i actually liked him i'm going to propose to josh like i don't think mean people should out themselves and he outed himself so but but his mean channel is great so we'll talk about that that'll be fun saturday live call-in show that's cool monday josh bridges

that's easy next tuesday again greg glassman wednesday uh former navy seal uh bear who's also the ceo of born primitive that dude deserves better of me than what probably he's going to get. That sucks. Thursday, I'm doing the BirthFit podcast. I do not do podcasts. I would do Pedro's podcast and I'm going to do the BirthFit one. Those are the only two. I'm actually really excited to go on there. I don't know if that one's live. I don't know what's going on there. one's live. I don't know what's going on there. And then Friday the 1st, I travel.

Alright. Oh, shit. Cyril Ghosn is fighting again. It's the 2nd. September 2nd. Oh, and that week's going to be crazy, too. September 3rd through 9th, because I think Greg's going to be in Santa Cruz, so I'm going to get to hang out with him all week.

That's my life. Not that you care, but maybe you heard some people's names on there. Oh, Seve. Oh, interesting. Vindicate. Sevan, have them send you the newborn primitive shoes. They are a lot like the Nano 2. Oh.

Hi, welcome to the show. Can you give me some free shoes? CK Kevin, I think seven-year-olds should be able to drive too. Why the age restriction? Oh. Hey, the difference between walking like if you go to a city and you walk around a city let's say you go to paris you never been there before and you live there for a month and you walk everywhere versus bike ride everywhere versus drive everywhere is so different it is so different the difference between driving somewhere every day using a map versus using nav is so different. The difference between driving somewhere every day using a map versus using nav is so different. And what I mean different is it just affects your brain and your understanding of your surroundings incredibly. There's people that drive every day in places that they would be fucking terrified, a lot of people, to get out and walk around for one reason or another for one

reason or another and so if you don't think that there's a difference between getting read a book at the amish amish lady reading hour the lady who pulls up on a fucking horse and wagon versus the tranny reading hour you i mean dude oh so they're not trannies they're cross-dressers fine whatever i'm just saying to dudes who who are for some reason dudes who have embraced women's clothing bailey walker hi can't wait for pamela yeah she's going to be great, right? And finally, let's leave on a positive note. Blas, Sevan is so, so, so, so, so good at making cool diversions from subjects at the right time. Thank you.

Love you guys. Talk to you tomorrow. Bye-bye.