The Sevan Podcast - Jennifer Sey | Standing Up for the Truth

Episode Date: January 3, 2024

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Pumped about today's show. Very excited. Is that true? I just saw what Jay Hartle wrote. Oh, sweet. Caleb will be on. That is awesome. I love it. I just saw what Jay Hartle wrote. Oh, sweet. Caleb will be on. That is awesome. I love it. I just saw what Jay Hartle wrote that Caleb that Hiller releases videos just prior to us going live. That is genius. So what is it like if it's a 20 minute video? He releases it. Please tell me he releases it like at 640 a.m. Pacific Standard Time, and as soon as it's over, you switch to me. Maybe I need to give him a cut of my billions. Wow, crazy. Oh, there she is, Whitney Davis.

Damn. Hey, did you get the Slack box I sent you? I couldn't believe it was $38 or something crazy to send that piece of uh styrofoam over to you that was absolutely nuts hey hi jennifer hi you're oh good i'm glad you have a la croix i always feel bad because i always realized i'm uh 1600 and i never tell anyone hey you can drink coffee and then i'm over here talking to someone. I coffee the whole time. Like maybe I should start telling people like they can pet a dog or bring a coffee or something. My dog is barking, but she's far away. Are you in Colorado?

Yeah. I am in Santa Cruz, California. OK. And on the on the back end is Caleb. Hi, Caleb. He is in one of the middle states, Nebraska. Yes. Oh, not too far from me.

Yes. You're at your two-year anniversary. Is that right? Since you quit your job. More. It's close to. Oh, for the job yes more since i've been in colorado but yeah it'll be two years in february yeah congratulations thanks

and basically on behalf of kids everywhere uh thank you oh well yeah not sure we we did enough, but we tried. I tried. Hey, I mean, outside of even the, outside of even the, what you did, just like the super high, you know, high picture is the fact that you just showed integrity and there's nothing more. I don't think that there's anything more valuable to stand up for than kids. I agree with you. I don't understand, um, why more people wouldn't do that, but I can't say I'm surprised, um, given my background in history and gymnastics. So, right, right. I want to go, I want to go back a little bit with you.

Where were you born? I was born in Philadelphia. And, your parents immigrants? Are they first generation? No. Been around here forever. So you're born American girl in as American city as they get. Yeah. Born Philadelphia, Jewish, not very religious, but definitely culturally Jewish. Spent a few years in Turkey as a young child. My dad was in the Air Force. He was a doctor in the Air Force in the early 70s. Came back to New Jersey,

South Jersey, and started gymnastics because I was obsessed with Nadia, as a lot of little girls in the 70s were. And there weren't a ton of sports opportunities for girls back then. You know, this is like right post Title IX in 1975 is about when I started. So yeah, and I loved it. I kept going. Made the national team by the time I was 10. Was on national team for gosh, I think eight years national champion in 1986, but it's a brutal sport. My first book was about that and kind of exposing the brutality and coaching abuse in the sport of gymnastics. So I had a little run at a mini cancellation from that because you weren't supposed to talk about the abuse in the sport. But, you know, as I said said i saw firsthand the way that adults will sacrifice children for their own

reputation money medals i had um two i had i've had a bunch of crossfit games athletes on the show and i had two women on the show separate separate interviews in the same week um and both of them had been seen uh by the by that nightmare by larry nassar yeah and i just kind of randomly asked it because the story was big at the time like hey you ever have any runs with that guy and they said yeah absolutely yeah yeah scary too old but yeah i know a lot of the the victims and the survivors, having made a documentary called Athlete Day about the whole thing, which is about Nassar on the surface, but I think at the kind of broader, bigger level, it's about the abuse in the sport, you know, that is just rampant, that allowed for somebody like

that to do what he did for 30 years as the doctor for Team USA. And you also had a colleague and friend die from the sport also, right? From an injury? You know, yeah. Julissa Gomez passed away from an injury sustained in the sport. There's, I knew several and know several that are paralyzed from the sport. I mean, it's a brutal, brutal sport. Hey, when you just now, when you said not very religious in the, in the book that I just finished the Levi's unbuttoned book, amazing book, by the way. And I, so many of my friends have started picking up and actually listening to it the audiobook um you basically say you're not religious are you a little bit

religious now has something changed in you no no you're zero zero religious i mean we practice the jewish holidays i like the you know the cultural aspect the history aspect but i'm not i'm an atheist right so you like you like the tradition and the cultural the cultural aspect, the history aspect, but I'm not, I'm an atheist. Right. So you like, you like the tradition and the, and the cultural, the cultural pieces that make you who you are through your history. Absolutely. You, um, so, so were either your parents, athletes, mom or dad? No, I mean, not seriously. My dad's pretty athletic.

I mean, he's 81 now, but he's pretty athletic. But no, not seriously. So they get you into this sport where it's kind of like the pinnacle of all sports. The founder of CrossFit, who a lot of my listeners are, he comes on the show once a week. They're very intimate with them. He says basically gymnastics is it. And he describes it exactly the way you do super duper dangerous commitment has to be insane. The abusiveness, all that he describes it. But he also says that it's like, you, you, if you're good at gymnastics, you can do anything.

And you've got your teeth there, right? Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting sport because you have to kind of have all of the, you have to be, you have to have speed, strength, flexibility, the precision required, the discipline required. You can't just be sort of like a one skill athlete. You kind of have to have it all. Now, I don't know if you can do anything, any sport, because gymnasts do tend to be rather short. And now height is such an advantage in basically every other sport that you play. But I think, you know, the discipline required to get good at this sport will serve you

in life, you know, later if you're so inclined. The problem is the training is so tough in such a short window that so many young people come out of sports is completely burned out on life and don't necessarily go on to apply that discipline in other areas. And you shattered your ankle, you broke your ankle and continue to train on it for two years. And to this day, that's a, that's injury you live with. Oh yeah. You can't do that to yourself. I mean, I didn't understand it at the time, and I didn't even know it was broken. I learned that at 40 when I finally went back to see a doctor. But, yeah, you don't recover from that kind of abuse of your body.

So, yeah, my ankle is kind of a mess. Did you know – oh, and here you are. How old are you here? Um, gosh, probably 16. I don't know where that is. You, Hey, do you, do you retain any, did you retain any of those skills throughout the years? Like, could you get on a trampoline and still wow the kids um i could do some stuff a couple years ago my body has declined a bit further so it's hard now hey how are you upside down now you okay i just turned uh i'm gonna turn 52 in march and i'm not so good upside down anymore um yeah i'm fine i could do handstands and stuff look at you crazy um and then then at some point

so so you get out of gymnastics and then what happens after that what do you do after that well I left the sport you know sadly despite my successes as the 1986 national champion I left really sort of broken and just shamed I I, you know, my body fell apart, my mind kind of unraveled and I, I just quit or retired. And, you know, a few months before the Olympic trials in 1988, and I went to college like a normal person and I did not do gymnastics in college. I wanted nothing to do with the sport. And I, you know, I wanted to figure out who I was without the sport. I'd never been a person without it. You know, I'd been doing it pretty seriously since I was six. So that was quite a journey because I was mad about it too. You know, I went to college and I, there were all these athletes

who were going to make a career of the sport that they had mastered as children. And as much as I hated the sport at that point, I didn't know how to figure out what else there was. And it seemed really unfair. I had been as good as they were at their sports. There were tennis players and football players and baseball players. They'd all become professional. And I was like, what am I supposed to do? So it took me a while to figure that out, you know, who I was without the sport. And I eventually did. I graduated college and went to work in the corporate world, which I was reluctant to

do. I did not think that's what I wanted to do. And I was always kind of a reluctant corporate executive. So maybe that's why it was feasible for me to kind of give it up at the height of my success, because I always sort of entered that world reluctantly. But I found I liked it, you know, after I got into it, and I was good at it. And I liked being part of a team and managing a team. And I loved, you know, working at Levi's, which I did for 23 years, it's this like amazing brand. And the work that we did,

it was such a cool way to intersect with culture like it's not like working for Swiffer you know what I mean it was like this really amazing brand and we got to that's the thing people clean the floors with right yeah it's not like it was like a mop right it was like right right things that people love and they wear their whole lives and everyone has a favorite Levi's ad and everybody has a favorite pair of Levi's and it just it was a really cool brand to work on for a really long time. I loved it. I think there's something pretty cool about working in two, three spaces, food, shelter and clothing, because they are they are pretty fundamental pieces of equipment that we all cherish. Right. We all need food.

We all would like to have shelter unless you're addicted to fentanyl, then you don't really care about the shelter part. But the clothes, the clothes and the food are kind of important. I think so. But for me, Levi's was, it's such a like cut above. I still feel this way. You know, any other apparel brand, like so much of apparel right now, our clothing is fast fashion. It's this like disposable garbage that you can wear one or two times and then it's destroyed or ruined. Whereas people keep Levi's for their entire lives. I have Levi's in my closet that are 30 years old. People love this product and they're built to last. There's something really cool and kind of wholesome about that that I think is neat.

And people would say to us all the time, I wear other things, but I live my life in Levi's. Like your memories are written in these jeans. And there's just, it invites such amazing storytelling. So it made working on marketing within Levi's a really exciting proposition. You know, we have a weird similarity. I was, I started working at Crossfit in 2006 when there were less than 300

gyms and i got fired from there when there were 15 000 gyms as we didn't have a chief marketing officer but i was called the i was on the executive team and i was in charge of media which was the same as our marketing officer if we would have had one and i love i eventually got fired from there for for because i was part of the toxic culture and um but i love that i love crossfit and so here you are with a company that you and i and i and i lived and breathed it like you did like it was like and i still love it i still cannot stop talking about and promoting it and sending people there i mean like hey like you could probably tell me what jeans i need to go out and buy right after the show definitely hey you know what i've been talking to you you seem like this kind of guy gene yeah i definitely could yeah i mean i still wear it

obviously i worked there 23 years i probably have even with pruning every year i still probably have 100 pairs of levies in my closet so um that's what I wear every day. Pretty much. Um, it's a great product pruning. I like that. Hey, um, I want to go, I want to go back and ask you even, I want to go back to when you went to college and I want to ask a little bit about, um, boys and when you decide you want to have kids and stuff like that, but really quick a hundred pairs, 23 years there. Was there ever any significant change? Did you know everything like where you guys got the cotton from, where it was spun up changes in the market when you guys switch cottons? Like did you is that all, is there all sorts of crazy shit like that? Well, you know, when I joined Levi's,

it was in 1999 and we were sort of just past the height of, you know, Levi's popularity. Ninety seven was the biggest year Levi's ever had. The 80s through to the late 90s were just this like boom period for Levi's. For those of us of a certain age, you know, you might remember the 501 Blues campaign, which is back in 1984. That really put Levi's like on a rocket ship. Um, and part of that generation that took Levi's to Russia, that was like a huge, you talk about that in the book and I forgot about that whole era, but that was a whole thing that us Americans could do when we traveled over there to the Eastern blocker. That was cool to hear you tell that story. Yeah. We, for people who are too

young to know, we used to take jeans there and trade them for shit and we were like gods oh yeah i went to moscow in 1986 for the very first goodwill games and took a bunch of 501s uh to trade with the russian gymnasts who were the best in the world at the time um that's what you did they They were gold. You know, they represented freedom. Yeah. And that's what the Russians wanted to trade us for. We wanted their leotards and pins and tracksuits, and they wanted our 501s. Did you ever order, like, 100,000 pairs of jeans would come in, and you'd go over there and touch them and be like, uh-oh. And they're like, what? And they're like, this doesn't feel right.

And they're like, oh, yeah, well, we switched cotton buyers. And you're like, dude. You know, know the bigger changes because Levi's is so big they're buying cotton from all over the world and manufacturing all over the world um the bigger changes were around uh distribution and the landscape in terms of distribution you know when when Levi's was um growing so fast they could barely contain it. You had, well, the competitive set was like there was Lee and Wrangler and that was it. And you sold it Macy's and JCPenney and that was kind of it. And then somewhere around the early 2000s, the competitive market changed. You went from having two or three competitors to hundreds at a time.

You had premium, you had value, you had the middle, you had fashion, you had everything in between. And the distribution landscape totally changed. You had direct to consumer. So brands, you know, the gap, which once carried Levi's as their jeans brand started to make their own and really took off in the, in the nineties and early two thousands, although they struggle now You had online and e-commerce. And we were just really, Levi's, we were late in addressing the new distribution landscape and being on our toes enough to be competitive against hundreds of competitors versus three. That really changed things. And it took us a good decade to wake up.

And we suffered terrible declines in share and volume and revenue. And it took us a good decade to wake up. And we suffered terrible declines in share and volume and revenue. And in about 2013, well, 2011, we got a new CEO. And I was put into the chief marketing officer role in 2013. And the goal was to kind of get back to our former levels of greatness. And we really had a steep hill to climb, but we drove a pretty remarkable recovery given that in 2010, 2011, we were near bankruptcy. Was the company always based in San Francisco? Yep. What year did you start again, Jennifer?

99. 99. And did you move to San Francisco right away? Well, I lived there when I got the job. So I went to Stanford, which is about a half an hour, 45 minutes south of San Francisco. And after I graduated, I moved to San Francisco. And my first job was actually at an advertising agency called Footcone and Belding. And I worked eventually on the Levi's account. So my history is even longer than the 23 years because I spent about three close to four years working on Levi's, the Levi's accountant at an ad agency. Then I left and went to The Gap and I worked at Banana Republic for about three years.

They were owned by The Gap. And then eventually I went to Levi's and stayed there. By the way, the book Levi's Unbuttoned, these stories are detailed in there with fun stories, details, adventure, relationships. You have to read this book. Even if you don't, you're going to enjoy the book. It's a great adventure. Rambler, always with the great questions. Why the rise of the jeans so high it hurts to sit? That's right. I agree with that. But look, the trend in women's has been a higher rise for the last, gosh, probably six, seven years. The rise is, for those that don't know, it's like-

I don't know. From the button to the crotch, that's the rise. And the lengths of rises change over time. So if you remember the early 2000s, very low rise jeans were in. Think about Britney Spears and the belly bearing looks. You had a low rise boot cut. That was the cool style for women. And men usually followed suit, not quite as low as women's, but a little bit low. Over the last, like I said, five or six years, very high rises for women in particular.

It's kind of a 70s vibe have been in. You can see it there, right? You see how that straight G. I don't like with a high rise what it does to the ratio. You do like it. It makes your leg look real long. Oh, interesting. Okay.

Okay. So you like it for the same reason I don't like it. It messes the ratios up for me of how i'm looking at the body well i think for for me i'm a little bit short i like that it lengthens the leg and i also think it sort of holds your tummy and it gives you a nice little you know okay all right i want did they ever make a pants that was so low cut it just wouldn't stay on they're like no we can't do this but we made them well but the low rise is coming back now so i mean the cool thing now about styles is sort of everything is in if you like it loose wear it loose if you like a high

rise um then go ahead and and and try that but lower rises are coming back as well so if you want the low rise boot cut it's out there for you um you you get out of gymnastics and um that's if that's full time right that's like six seven eight hours a day you're either either traveling gymnastics eating in between or training no eating but no okay yeah oh yeah right and no eating is that true in the book i think you said you had taken yourself down to 400 calories a day oh yeah yeah we ate nothing we got weighed twice a day. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we ate nothing. We got weighed twice a day. We were shamed for our weight.

Our weight was announced on the loudspeaker at the gym. That's really true? So you would be in there and they would be, Jennifer, say 102 pounds. And everyone's like, oh, fuck, she was 99 three days ago. She's getting fat. Yep. Holy shit. Oh, my God. She was 99 three days ago. She's getting fat. Yep. Holy shit. Oh my God.

I couldn't handle that. Yeah. Neither could we. Would your mom and dad be in there? My mom was often there, but it was so normalized. The parents just accepted it. It was even worse than that. I mean, I tell a story in my first book about a young girl younger than me. She was probably, I don't know, nine or 10 at the time, weighed about 75 pounds. Her parents were both quite overweight. She was not, but she had gained a half a pound or something. They get on the loudspeaker and they're like, I won't say her name. You know, Joan, that's not it but you remember

her name how old are you now you're 50 now i'm 54 so and this so you remember this 30 years ago 35 years ago you still remember her name oh yeah okay crazy you want to look like your parents that's the yeah she was 75 pounds she gained a half a pound or something from the day before. Would you be with your friends too? And they would be like, uh, Jennifer, did they ever say stuff like Jennifer say, Oh, she lost a pound since yesterday. Congratulations, Jennifer. And all your friends are like patting you on the back and shit. Well, no, there wasn't that kind of camaraderie really. I mean, we were all terrified of what the coaches were going to say to us at any given time. And if you lost a pound, it wasn't, there was no congratulations. It was just like, okay, now lose another. I'll look at Whitney agrees with me. Uh,

the ratio makes my ass look weird and high rise. Yeah. I'm telling you, then that's not for you where, you know, you can get a mid rise. I, my favorite chain is the 501, which is really sort of in the middle to mid rise. A lot of women think it's too high though, but you can get a low rise. You can get a mid rise. Just look at on the website that you're shopping. It'll tell you the length of the rise, whatever you like works. My issue with low rise also is it gives you that muffin top. So stuff hangs over it cuts in.

That's the story of my life. Yeah. So you, by the way, if you, when you read this book, you're going to realize that it's no accident that Jennifer was as successful as she was. And you just saw a little bit of it there. She is the ultimate diplomat. But if she does put her foot down you will not cross that line and you saw her she was very diplomatic with you she we're not going to convince her one jeans better than the other unless uh unless the subject's about masks which we'll get to hey have

your opinions changed since you've read that book there are some things in there that i'm like hmm i wonder if she like the george floyd Has your thoughts around George Floyd evolved since you've written the book? Or have you seen the new movie that's came out fall of Minneapolis? I have not seen the new movie. I would argue my, look, I spent my life as a, what I would have called a sort of left of left Democrat. So I wouldn't identify that way now. Do I believe in racial equality? Absolutely. Do I believe that what we've been doing for the last five years is going to achieve that?

No. So, you know, racism and if you fight racism with racism, all you're going to have left is racist. Yeah, that's the Mother Teresa shit, right? If you fight violence with violence, whoever wins is going to have left is racist yeah that's the mother teresa shit right if you fight violence with violence whoever wins is going to be the violent ones that's right exactly so i i don't really people ask me all the time oh you've been red pilled or you know you're this you're that i i'm not really i haven't changed i i believe the same things i always believed in and the reason i was a member of the Democratic Party and considered myself sort of further left than, you know, even many in the party is I thought the Democrats, you know, did care about the vulnerable and they cared about

children and they cared about protecting the little guy from corporate interests and they cared about free speech and freedom of the press. And none of those things seem to be true right now. So I would not identify as a Democrat. I want nothing to do with that party. I'm furious about the illiberalism of the last five to 10 years and COVID in particular. You can't shut public schools down and think children are going to be okay. You can't shut the press down and freedom of speech down in the name of democracy. You know, we need less democracy to protect democracy. It doesn't make any sense. So I'm not a Democrat anymore, but I'm not a Republican either.

OK. OK. By the way, Jennifer, she does have a movie out. It's called Athlete A and she's working on a new movie. It's called Generation Covid. That's something else you and i have in common there was a time if i may show off there was a time when i had five i don't even know how many are there but i had five of the top 10 all-time grossing documentaries on uh apple itunes documentaries still didn't make a fucking dime off them but um uh but she is making a movie that's gonna i'm very excited to see see and hopefully have you on as soon as it comes out. A very, very dear to my heart. In the three years I've been doing this podcast, this was an enormous subject.

And I watched the trailer and I saw we have similar friends also like Jay. Yeah, he's in there. Yeah, that's really cool. Are you friends with him? Do you feel close with Jay? Yeah. Yeah, he's great, isn't he? Yeah. He was a great support to me, uh, during the conflict in my work situation. Was he, was he a teacher of yours or a peer colleague of yours? We're about the same age, I think. So, um, did he go to Stanford when you did, did he go there? He did go. He, I think graduated one year ahead of me, but we didn't know each other.

And how about Ionati's? Do you know him also? I don't, but I followed him closely during during the worst of covid, you know, as a person obsessively reading the data. I found him pretty early on and he he wasn't making himself accessible. Did you see some of the have have you tried to get him? Because he's drawn some interesting lines in the sand. No, I didn't. You know, we got a broad range of folks in the movie. And, you know, Jay sort of represents the perspective of the dissident scientist. We only needed so many.

Right. I think Ionates has this thing where he won't do anything that's not for a nonprofit. He doesn't want to be affiliated with anyone who's making money. He won't go speak. If you pay him any amount of money, he won't go speak. Yeah, good for him. Yeah, yeah, totally good for him. Okay, so you finish gymnastics, and that hole has to be filled with some movement, doesn't it, for your mental health?

Like all of us who exercise every day, that's our thing. That's a good question. Not at first. I rejected all of it. It's hard to explain how broken and angry I was about the sport. And I didn't really make sense of it for quite some time, probably until I wrote my first book, meaning make sense of how that abusive coaching had impacted my sense of myself and my self-esteem and all of that. But you can't be told you're garbage every day

for 10 years and not come out thinking that you're garbage. That is what you will think about yourself. So no, I actually rejected basically all forms of anything healthy, helpful and exercise, but I found my way back eventually. I mean, I guess I would say throughout my 20s and 30s, I was periodically engaged with somewhat healthy behaviors, but largely unhealthy behaviors, did a lot of rebelling. Now, despite the fact that I have a pretty broken body, I am very disciplined about exercise, but I prioritize consistency over intensity. I think CrossFit is probably really intense. I don't think my body can handle it, but I, you know, I will say if I'm consistent, the levels of the health that I achieve are, I don't know, it's underestimated. I walk a ton. I ride my bike. I do my, I have a bike at home. I lift weights and I stretch.

here's another thing about gym gymnast and sorry to categorize you, but you guys are elitist in your nature. Like in, in rightfully. So you do all the hard shit. Your, your exercise is intensive. It makes you crazy strong, makes you fit, makes you eminently capable. What do you do? What do you remember what you pivoted to after that? Like running just seems like, I mean, that's like the lowest form after gymnastics, isn't it? I hate running. Yeah, me too. I did dance for a long time in my 20s oh after that okay

which is kind of an easy pivot it's like pivoting to yoga from gymnastics it's like gymnastics for dummies dance i loved dance it's so much fun and i'd always been sort of on the kind of graceful dance side of of the gymnastics continuum and i found of fun. I wanted my exercise to be fun, not intense. And dance class for me was fun. Did you go to Grateful Dead concerts and do that kind of dancing? Not really. No, no, okay.

I mean, I did go to some Grateful Dead concerts. Did you like that scene? I'm not much of a hippie, but I was from the Bay Area or I was living in the Bay Area. You can't really escape it. Yeah. So then you, when you meet your first husband, did you know you wanted to have kids? No. No.

Not at all. I was just pushing back on every kind of constraints in life and sort of tradition that you can imagine. So I didn't. In fact, I thought maybe I didn't want to. I'm sure I would have come around to the idea, but I thought maybe I didn't actually want to. But I was young when we met. I was 25. I was working, but I think I worked at the advertising agency I described. I didn't love it. I thought I was going to do something else, but I didn't know what. I thought I had, you know, I was interested in creative endeavors, but I was not. I sort of lacked the confidence to do it, you know, to write a book or make a movie. So I stayed working in this advertising agency.

I eventually got married at 30. Did you meet him there? Did he work there? No, he was a scientist. He worked in a lab. And how did you meet him? I think you said in the book, how did you meet him? Just friends of friends, the way it is when you're young. Oh, it was the book reading. It was the book reading. Oh, that's what I said. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. My first husband. At a party or something. My roommates worked with him in the lab and sort of introduced us. And did he want kids too?

Did he not want kids either? He wanted one. He really, really wanted one. And I had my first at 30. While you were full-time working? Oh, yeah. I always worked the whole time. So you have the first kid, and then did you know at that point you wanted a second kid?

Well, I didn't know for sure, but I thought that to give a child a sibling is sort of a gift. I didn't want to have an only child. So we had another one about two and a half years later. I didn't have my first kid till I was 43. So I think that there's some part of having a kid in your 30s that I just can't even imagine, right? Because my 30s and 40s were probably some of my most selfish years where I grinded. Did you notice any change in you when the first kid came out in terms of your selfishness? Maybe that's not even the right word to use.

In terms of your commitmentness? Maybe that's not even the right word to use in terms of your commitment ratio from work to child. I didn't. I think, look, it's tough. I think it's tough for women. I remember in my early 30s, just feeling like I couldn't do anything well enough. I was fully committed to work at some point after I had my first child. You know, my husband at the time had a business that it didn't work out. And so he was pretty devastated by that he did not go back to work. So I became the sole breadwinner at about 31 with with a child and then a second on the way. I just felt like I was sucking at everything all the

time. You know, I wanted to be great at my job, but I wasn't going to miss out on time with my kid. I was running hither and yon all the time, feeling like I was failing at everything. Now I, I have two younger children now there's, you know, 12, 14 year age gap between the second set and the first set. And I am much less hard on myself now. You know, those two older ones, they came out great. I was very committed as a parent. I missed some things here and there. That's fine. They knew I loved them. I think there's so much we worry about as parents that it's on the margins. You know, if you love your kids like crazy and you give them the space to figure

out who they are and you don't sort of over parent and helicopter pamper, you give them the space to begin who they're meant to be. Everything else is going to be fine. You know, if you miss a soccer game here and there, if you give them garbage to eat once in a while, none of it matters. Just love them and be there and make sure they know that. And so I worry a lot less now. I used to worry all the time that I wasn't present enough or I don't know everything. That might be part of your Jewish culture too. Oh no, this was being a mom. This was at the height of the mommy wars, mom. And this is being a mom. And this was at the height of the mommy wars, which as a guy who had kids in his forties, you might not even be aware of, but women, we were just so hard on each other.

Some women were just stay home. They were critical of the ones that went to work to defend ourselves as the ones that went to work. We were critical of the ones, although I never was that stayed home. It's just, you always felt like you were failing. You know, dads don't do this to themselves in the same way. I'm very opinionated when it comes to parenting. And so the audience and I always we fight a lot in regards to my heavy hand and parenting calls. Wow. Turntable. This woman is dangerous for me. I might have to turn off the podcast to maintain faithfulness in my relationship. My goodness. Wow. What does that mean?

I think you've got him swooning. Oh, I'm sick. How many podcasts have you done, Jennifer? Oh, my gosh. A hundred? Yeah. And no one's ever – that's the first comment you've got where someone was swooning, right? Yeah.

I didn't take it the right way until you clarified for me. Yeah, he's definitely swooning. You got him all messed up. So you have a kid, and do you know – what I'm going to try to do is I'm going to try to tie this to you being this person who has this indomitable will to compete, succeed, focused, and then you have a kid and something changed. And then if we flash forward 20 years later, the two collide. And what collides is this love for your child and this absolute commitment to your child beyond your commitment to gymnastics. And then someone trying to put a mask on your kid? Those two things crossed and you're like, that's kind of a dangerous mix. What are the odds? I would put it slightly differently. I don't think anything changed. I stayed completely committed to my professional life. I've always known I'm not somebody that could be just,

not just, but that could be a stay-at-home mom. I knew that I had things I wanted to do in the world. I am and was a very committed parent at the same time. And I think you can do both. I, you know, I always tell people, I hate this whole, like, I'm looking for balance in my life. And I would bet your life is balanced over time. At any given moment, you might spend more time working or more time parenting or more time writing a book or whatever. You know, while I worked, I wrote my first book, I made the film athlete a like, you can do all the things you want in your life. And you don't have total balance at any given moment. But hopefully over time in your life, you do. So, you know, I didn't take my eye, I didn't become less driven at work, when I had a child, in fact,

more so because at this point, then I was the sole breadwinner. And you know, at the time, this is in 2000 in San Francisco, it's expensive. And I'm not very high level in the company. I'm pretty low level, I'm mid level employee. And it was difficult to kind of make a go, I knew I needed to kind of, you know, move myself up the ladder a bit. Plus, I'm just a striver, I want to do more, I want to contribute more. So I, you know, move myself up the ladder a bit. Plus, I'm just a striver. I want to do more. I want to contribute more. So, you know, I continue to push myself at work. And I think, you know, like I said, move up, move up the ladder there. And then I had another child. And I just never thought for a second, I couldn't do all of it. You know, I couldn't, I never thought that I couldn't be successful at work and have children. Here's where the collision is. It's different than what you say.

So I ended up getting divorced around 2010. I met my new husband in 2012. We didn't get married till 2017. I had two children before we got married. In 2020, I am the chief marketing officer at Levi's. So I'd worked my way up the ladder. I'm a member of the executive team. I'm a member of the team that helped the company go public. That must've been fun. That must've been exciting.

Yeah, it was pretty exciting for 150 year old brand now to take it public. We'd just, you know, we rebuilt the brand and the business and I was a huge part of that. And I was next in line to be brand president, which I became in 2020. And then next in line to be CEO. But things shut down. My kids, I have four kids at this point. So I had the two older ones. One was in college. One was in high school.

And I had two younger ones. One was about to start kindergarten. And one was in preschool. And my children had always gone to public school. My two older ones had graduated from public school. My oldest at the time was at UC Berkeley. So he was in a public university. Those are all my kids. Did they all live with you? Did you guys all live together? Well, the oldest was in college. So he lived at college. The one there with the big hair was a junior in high school.

At the time, things shut down, and he lived with me half the time. My ex-husband and I lived just a few blocks apart, and he would go back and forth. So I saw it from every angle, though, right? I saw what it did to the college kids. He came home. I saw what it did to high school kids. And then, you know, the little boy there in the red shoes, he was about to start kindergarten, and then the girl was in preschool. So I saw it from every angle. And, you know,

not to kind of, it all just seemed wrong to me. So like, despite my history, standing up for children in the sport of gymnastics, having written a book and having made this film every day, all of this just seemed wrong. None of it made sense. It wasn't grounded in data or reality. You know, I would make the case that even if it was grounded in data and reality, and it made sense to shut everything down, it was still wrong. It was illiberal and you need to let people make their own decisions. On top of that, it was totally ineffective and it was harmful, especially for children. So I was enraged about this from the outset. Like I said, my kids are in public school. I know that

school population. This was less about my children. My children were fine. It wasn't great, but they were okay. It was about that public school population. I knew that was a vulnerable population of children. I knew that was a vulnerable population of children. I knew that there were many in poverty or near the poverty line. They were left home alone. They were taking care of younger siblings. It didn't take tremendous imagination to know that this is what was going on. And then in San Francisco, in the fall of 2020, all the private schools opened.

So all my peers at work who were telling me, you can't talk about these things, are sending their own children to private school while telling me that I can't have the same thing for my children in public and the other 50,000 children in public schools in San Francisco. And the hypocrisy of that just enraged me because it was such a violation and a trespass of the left's stated values that they care about children. They care about the vulnerable. They care about the poor. They didn't care about any of that. All they cared about. They went out of their way to hurt them. That's what you and I saw. We're like, wait, wait a second. Why are you shutting down? Why are those schools getting shut down?

Those kids aren't in danger and those shutdowns are going to hurt them. And yet over here you're saying you care. Yeah. All the things that would have kept kids healthy and sane, that was shut down for them. Playgrounds in San Francisco were closed for almost 10 months. Children could not play outside. In Santa Cruz, so I basically, it didn't affect me at all because I had means, right? And I didn't care. And I just went on to, like I would go to the parks and pull down the yellow tape and my kids would only be there playing but i was surrounded by these liberals too that were absolutely terrified but i did go to some places that were absolute batshit crazy like i used to live in berkeley and when i would go back there and

visit during the pandemic it was crazy jennifer we would be the only ones we would see out of thousands of people walking on the streets, not wearing masks, and people would yell at their kids, don't go near those kids. Don't go near them. And it would be like, we would be at parks. Everyone was masked. Yeah, I was at the beach with my daughter because all the playgrounds were closed.

She was maybe four at the time. The beach in San Francisco, which is cold. There's no one there. And some woman went out of her way to come up to us, get in my face and scream at me that she would not be sad for me when all my children died. Oh my God. Because we weren't asking at the beach. Like psycho. The Bay Area, that kind of scared me that it took that for me to notice that my cohort was crazy. I was like, for me to notice that my cohort was crazy. I was like, how did I not know my cohort was crazy?

I have that same. I know. How did I not notice that they were so mean and conformist and cruel? I don't I didn't know. I didn't know that until until then. But I can't unsee it. and so i can never go back there you um so so so when you have these kids i'm going to try to push push back on you a little bit here you have these two kids and there's there's no um uh spiritual peace sinks in you're not like hey where were these kids before they were born where do we go when we die my whole life no no no man i'm not laughing at you no yes you are yes you are everyone my husband says it all the time i mean he's not religious either but he's constantly astonished and astounded by he said he's never met someone with less of a religious impulse than me

what what about doing um have you heard of this thing um called the pasana no it's where you go away really really kind of sad what happened to them during the pandemic too they sold their soul too but basically it's a non-denominational place where you go away for 10 days you're not allowed to make eye contact or talk to anyone for 10 days 10 days of just silence no eye contact it doesn't cost any money when you get home they give you an envelope to go home with and you pay if you pay whatever you want to pay when you get home or nothing and um what about doing something like that to see if like you can crack into like i don't want any of it i'm not speaking i'm very happy i'm all right

as a secular humanist yeah all right all right i think I might be secular too. I just, I don't need it. Like I can, I don't have this drive or this impulse. Like I am very happy to try to be a good person every day. And somebody who's religious will say, well, how do you know what that is? That's God inside of you. No, it's not. Or if it is, I think it is. It's me establishing my own moral compass and framework and making my own decisions and treating people the way I think is right to treat them. I'm not searching for answers. In a relationship with a man and a woman, do you think that there are roles like that are inherent to us as creatures? When you said that you were the breadwinner, that in itself is not particularly the strong point, but I could see it as a correlate. Do you think – you and I were brought up that men and women are the same, men and women are the same, men and women are the same, and now it's 2024 or 2023. What is it? 24. And we've kind of taken it too far. We're are the same. Men and women are the same. Men and women are the same. And now, you know, it's 2024 or 2023. What is 24? And we've kind of taken it too far. We're not the same. There's some different. We are different. So we kind of like swung too far. There's this group of because they're saying that, okay, as a little boy, if you possess these qualities and you like playing with dolls and playing dress-up, then you're a girl.

That's retrograde. No, you're not. You're a boy. Okay, let me take it. Right. Right. Let me – so just so we have the terms correct, gender you and I would both agree is a social construct, and sex would be like the biology, like the bits and bobs you can see. Okay. Do you – like I think all human beings, if they don't eat within a certain paradigm and move within a certain paradigm, they don't actually become human beings. And I'm being a little hyperbolicolic but there's an expression that we have it's like the lion you see in the zoo is not really a lion he's not running shit down he's

not like you know what i mean he has roles that he has to do to really be the essence of lion right and do you think that as men and women we have that like different like you don't think your relationship like if a woman doesn't have a child she's not a woman i don't agree with that you don't you don't agree with that what about okay and biologically i agree with that but what about like um my husband is not the breadwinner my husband is the stay-at-home father i don't think that makes him less of a man right i'm gonna stay i'm gonna stay at home father too so sohome father i don't think that makes him less of a man right i'm gonna stay i'm a stay-at-home father too so so that but i do think that that is a kind of a strong core

what about this did you notice that maybe you're more nurturing than the man do you ever feel like you have to protect your kids from your uh husband but protects a little strong no you don't no i wouldn't be with a man like that. All right. You would hate me. There's never where he's more disciplinarian or less forgiving or. No, I mean, look, we all have various personalities. He's more hot tempered than me, but he also is quicker to apologize. Yeah, me too. I'm more to do things that I don't have to apologize for or be thoughtful

enough up front that I'm not constantly losing my temper. We're just, I don't think that's gendered per se. I think we're just really different people. I don't think it's gendered either. I think it's sex. I think that like for men to be happy and women, women to be happy, both of us have to eat right and move right. But I think that maybe that there's other roles too do you think that if a man and a woman don't have kids um that they're missing out on something like significant that would bring fulfill like my mom I never wanted kids and at 43 I had a kid and all of a sudden it hit me my mom's like hey man if you don't have a kid you're gonna miss out on this experience that I'm pretty sure you're gonna to like. I, I do think that, but I also wouldn't. Um, I mean, I think that because my four children

have, you know, it's the most important thing in my life. I don't know how you understand loving another person. If you don't have a child, that's it. I don't think. But that's an important development, right? That doesn't make them less human or less female or less male if somebody chooses not to have children or can't have children. There's people who can't have children. Not less relative to who they are but less developed than maybe someone who's had that experience. Like, for instance, you. You have experiences as a gymnast that make you – give you experiences that I think are pretty fundamental to human beings that most of us aren't going to get. And so you have growth as a human that a lot

of us won't ever have. Yeah, look, I think having kids is great. I wouldn't have had four if I great. Four is a lot of kids. Good job in this day and age. But look, it's not it's not for everyone. I do think they're missing out. But look, it's not for everyone. I do think they're missing out. But again, I'm sure they're doing things that they think I'm missing out. I don't know. To each his own. Humanity would be, I think that I'm going to propose this, that if you and I didn't have kids, that our stances on these things would be much different.

Possibly. I know a lot of people who didn't have kids at the time and were very vocal proponents for open schools and protecting children. So it's not impossible to see outside yourself if you don't have children. Yeah, I met a lot of really awesome people. There weren't that many of us, you know, very vocal public open schools advocates. And there were quite a few people that I met over the course of the two or three years that did not have children. More power to them. No, no, no, no. Listen, listen. Maybe, maybe I said that. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I said that. I just think that you, that there's a part of you that develops, that wants to develop in the same way. And I think that there's, there's qualities in us as men and women that are distinct from one another that we should be happy, we should embrace and be happy to let express. Boy, that was vague. Did I trick you? Did I get you to agree with me? No.

No, look, I think when you look at averages, yes, I think there are more women that are of a certain kind of way of being. There are more men that are of another way of being. But within that, and I think this is what the second wave of feminism, which we're past now, fought for, is that to be a woman,

there's a broad range of expressions of that. You can be more aggressive. You can be more assertive. You can be less of those things and want to stay home. All of that is fine. Now I find through gender ideology, there's a perspective that is a very narrow view of what it is to be male or female. And it's, I think, really misogynistic and homophobic. To narrow that, give me an example of that. Give me an example of what that would look like to narrow it too much. that give me an example of that give me an example of what that would look like to narrow it too much there here's an example of that if you're a um a a boy now and you have some typically feminine

ways of behaving and maybe you are going to grow up and be a gay man gender ideology would suggest to you that because you have typically feminine ways of behaving that you might actually be a girl. No, you're not. Yeah. Okay. I agree with you a hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think it's perfectly okay to be, let those feminine traits express. Exactly. But what, give me an example of what one of those traits would be. So like I'm Armenian and my mom really liked Baryshnikov as a kid. And so I was raised thinking Baryshnikov was like a man, right? So my kids, I have three little boys, and I dress them for their two 7-year-olds and a 9-year-old. And they wear the white tank tops. We affectionately call them white beaters.

And they wear black tight girls' pants from Amazon. And they do everything like that, that skateboard park jiu-jitsu piano whether i'm taking to a funeral or church or anything that's their outfit you know and then they wear they have an argyle sweater they wear over it it's all they wear but some people will be like hey what are you doing are you trying to be progressive i'm like no this is some manly shit uh baryshnikov was manly as shit what are you talking about what do you what are you talking more about affects like like one of my boys just loves cartwheels he loves all the girls gymnastics boys do gymnastics but but he likes the girl stuff he likes that you know what i mean those movements i i think when

your kids are gonna i think the biggest challenge as a parent is not to kind of impose you, who you are and your hopes and dreams and what you like and what you want on your children, but to give them the space to become who they both, who they are. My two older children are both artists. One is in a MFA program right now in New York. The other goes to art school. I am not an artist or not in the way that they are. I can't draw, I can't paint. But they very early on expressed interest in that and worked very hard at it. That's my son, Virgil. You know, it's hard not to impose your own wishes on your children. Yeah, I do it every day. To give them the space. And that's what I would hope. And that's in terms of

their talents, their likes, their dislikes, their preferences, how they dress, how they behave, all of it. My daughter is, um, she's only seven and she is wild. I mean, this child is like a terror in some ways. And all she wants to do from the time she's, you know, little is just be on her own and go out. She rides her bike around the neighborhood by herself. Nobody lets kids do that anymore. She's been doing it for the last year and a half. She begs.

She wants to do it. She wants independence. She goes around the neighborhood knocking on people's doors to see if she can play, either with the children or we have a lot of older neighbors. They all invite her in. She plays. That's her. You know, that's not how I was as a kid. I was quiet. I was obedient. That made me easily trainable in the gym. She is not like me at all. She's much more like my husband. She doesn't like to follow instructions or take direction. And I want to nurture that in her. We need more rabble rousers. We need people who, you know, say, F you, I'm doing

it my way. We need that. Even if as a child, she's like a rebel without a cause, hopefully as she evolves, she will become a rebel with a cause. Ruth does not care what people think of her. She does not care about doing what the crowd does. She does her own thing. And I want to nurture that in her. That was not how I was as a child. It took me many years to learn to not care what other people thought of me. How old is that kid right there? Well, she's now seven. There she was six. Incredible. Would you put your kid in gymnastics? She does take gymnastics, but she does not have the personality to listen to, to allow herself to be coached. So, you know, I, I don't think she'll do it very seriously, but she likes it. You ever get triggered in there? You ever like watch it and you're like,

walk over and talk to the teacher. Hey, don't talk to my kid like that. No, they're all really nice. All right. That's what they say. Um, you're the,'re the there's the boat off the coast of Japan and there's these people on it and they say that they got some sort of sickness and they're not letting them off the boat. Are you talking about the Princess Cruise? Is that is that what it was, that one? And we're all over here going, huh? I wonder what's going on over there. And there's this thing that they supposedly have, this sickness called COVID or something, COVID-19 or something. And the next thing you know, they're talking about shutting everything down for two weeks. When did Jennifer Say's antlers start going, uh-oh, something's weird? Honestly, it was before we shut down. I mean,

I think California or San Francisco might've even been first. I'm sure. I don't know at this point, but even before, you know, we saw it coming. My husband and I, we were already like frantic and panicked that they were going to shut us down and they were going to shut the schools down. So we were screaming about it even before it happened. It didn't, I was not one of those people who in the beginning was like bleaching my groceries and, you know, terrified. I was never afraid. The data from the beginning,

from the princess cruise ship, from Italy, if you remember that kind of hit first. The median age of death, even from the beginning was was in the early 80s. It was older than the average life expectancy. This was not something I was afraid of. Not ever. Do you remember any of the statistics specifically or stats or information that you heard that made you go, okay, I'm good? Yeah, the age, the average age of death was 82. Okay. And then, so you would see something like, okay.

So you would see something like, um, the average age of death in the United States is 80. The average average age of death of COVID is 82. Meaning these people aren't dying from COVID. They're dying with COVID. And therefore older people die and they get colds and they die. And when you're old and you're compromised and you're vulnerable it was yeah i and the average age of death in the united states

is younger than that and yet the people that were dying were in their 80s and i mean i'm not even i wasn't even a big proponent you know i know you know, you know, this Dr. J and the love him and Koldorf and, you know, even in the Great Barrington Declaration, the proposal was that we sort of protect the elderly. I actually think it's horrible what we did to the elderly. We isolated them in nursing homes and they spent, you know, many of these people had months to live and they spent them alone and not able to see their families. Like, I don't even think we should have done that. Or at least people should have been given the choice. What we did to the elderly is horrible. The fact that people died alone, scared and separated from their families. When you're old, all you have is that visit with your grandchildren. That's

what you live for. And we took that from them them so you see these things being rolled out um the you know um restaurants closing the yellow tape at the parks and have you what would you remember when you first started publicly uh pushing back yeah march 2020 and that was and you said something on social media yeah I mean at first I was like engaging in conversation with like friends about it on Facebook and it got so heated so fast I didn't realize you know how crazy people had gone and how terrified they were and then I it got so heated with friends and family on Facebook that I stopped on Facebook because I was like, this is not productive. I don't want to have these kinds of terrible arguments with my friends and family.

And everybody was unified in thinking, you know, if only the terrible evil people who are murders and eugenicists think we shouldn't be shut down now. So the names I was called there were terrible. I switched to Twitter. I had a Twitter account, but I hadn't used it very much. But I thought what was interesting on Twitter was you could actually talk to people. Like I could find scientists like, you know, Martin Kolder and ask questions. I found people early on that would answer my questions. I didn't have much of a following. And I, you know, for the book, I went back and looked at my Twitter from March and April 2020. I was already posting and asking questions.

Are we sure this is right? This seems like the cure is worse than the disease. But I had no followers. You know, I had like one person liking something. But over time, I grew a following. And that's when I started to get myself in trouble for some of the things I was. Did you get any threats from social media platforms saying, hey, what you're posting is against guidelines? You better stop doing that. No, my husband was kicked off Twitter, though, for over a year.

And did he get back on? Did they let him back on? When Elon took over a year. And did he get back on? Did they let him back on? When Elon took over? Yeah. Oh, wow. So was he, so he actually got his, he got his account back. He did a few months, maybe six months after Elon bought the platform. How did that happen? Elon just started being like, okay, they just started just unlocking just accounts by the thousands? I think so. I think they, you know, started with some of the higher profile ones and you know, he, my husband was kicked off, you know, they had like a, well, the whole thing was so opaque. They didn't really tell you why.

You would be told that you violated some terms of service, but they weren't clear about it. It is. I think the tweet that got him kicked off, he talked about the known side effects of the COVID vaccine. He said the known side effects are, you know, myocarditis, stroke and something else. And that's all true. And he said, you know, that's not what I would consider safe and effective. So he said a true thing. And then he expressed an opinion about that not being safe and effective. And he was kicked off. I think over a year he was kicked off for. I lost this, uh, this YouTube station right here for a week because I said something that was

against WHO guidelines. I said that, um, exercise and diet were the, by far the two best things you could do to prevent all, any kind of sickness, whether it be COVID or anything. And I was, and I was told that that goes against WHO guidelines. And then recently, about a week ago, I got a notice from Google saying, from YouTube saying we've pulled down podcast 198 and we're on like 1600 now. So that means I think someone's going through my podcast trying to get me shut down, but it said, Hey, hey at this at the four minute and 54 second mark you said this and we pulled down your that episode so they let me watch it and in that episode i say the mrna vaccine does not stop infection at all so then right then i took that exact line verbatim and i put it into google and it said that is true so i actually protested it

and they put my they put my show back on It kind of gave me hope for a second. That's nice. Well, I mean, the trailer that I have up for our film on YouTube, Generation COVID, YouTube backslash at Generation-COVID, it has a COVID warning on it still. Already? Well, it's been up for a couple months or a month and a half. But yeah, it hasn't. Now, we're not even talking about vaccines.

We're not talking about anything. We're talking about something that has been published in the New York Times, that prolonged school closures were harmful to children. Is that even a controversial statement at this point? I mean, that's a fact. It gets a COVID warning. Are you bummed that you took the injection? Does any part of you be like, fuck, I wish I would have done it?

No, I mean, I just got one. I did not get mRNA. I got the J&J. I just got the one I got. And honestly, I was in so much hot water at work already. It was required. And I, you know, I mean, I wouldn't have gotten it otherwise. But you don't. Okay.'s there's two sides to it like one having a little bit of fear right like shit people like do you

have you fallen down do you believe that that this thing is actually hurting some people like that that's sort of my my contention is from the evidence I've looked at like uh-oh this thing might be hurting specifically young men this might not be so good for young men yeah i mean i think that's pretty clear yeah okay as much it has a terrible you know the side effect profile okay and much worse adverse um outcomes for certain populations than other vaccines. That seems quite clear. How bad it is, I don't think we totally know yet what the longer-term impacts are, and I don't know that we'd ever be able to show that anyway. So there's those two – there's that element, and then there's the emotional element where you are coerced into it.

Like, fuck you. Now you carry – you have to let go of that resentment now. That does no good to carry that, but there would be some – if I would have gotten the shot, and I was unemployed, so it was easy for me to just be like, fuck you. I don't have to do anything. But I would feel some pretty, I would feel, I would be two things. I'd be scared. I'd be always like listening to my ticker and I would feel like a little bit of resentment. I would be like, does any of that fuel you? No, I'm much more angry that I lost my job for standing up for children. Yeah. Yeah. Hey. Um, and, and being rich is fun,

Yeah. Hey, and being rich is fun. Right. It is. I saw this thing that said that you don't start living until you make five hundred thousand a year living in san francisco with five roommates i can't really imagine a time that was more fun i agree there was a section in my life where i was homeless for five years that's probably not fun it was great it was great fun i wasn't a drug addict it was by choice and it was in santa barbara california it was the greatest five years of my life but then there's a section in there where I, where, you know, I'm making 40 to $60,000 a year. And then there's a point in there. Then after that, where I'm rich and I'm like, Oh yeah, being rich is like fun. Like you have friends who like send planes for you. And like, I don't care about any of that. You don't have to care about it. It's just fun. Like you don't got to do TSA. You don't got to do customs when you go into Canada. care about it's just fun like you don't got to do tsa you don't

got to do customs when you go into canada there's just just fun shit right i mean it's fun it's fun i have not done that privately but i will say it is nice not to have to worry about money that's it lets you kind of enjoy your life yeah like you would go to whole foods and avocados would be five dollars each and you don't give a shit. You're like, yeah, I'll take 10. Can you eat what you want?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good life. Do you, do you think that there's any chance you would ever get your job back at Levi's? No.

And I don't want it. I know you don't want it, but they would be like, Oh shit. You, you really had an enormous impact on that company. I mean, you are something special, fierce, focused. If you're put on a job, you get it done.

That is true. Yeah. You don't think that there's someone there who's a big investor who's like, hey, I'm going to tuck my ego away. I want to make sure I fuel for my private jet we're getting fucking jennifer say back no isn't that isn't that fascinating that their ego is that big people do you know that put their ego aside and say i was wrong i would do it for money it would seem like a win-win you get to well that's an interesting point i'll pivot away from levi's but in general, you know, one of the things the book is about is kind of what I call in the book woke capitalism and this sort of pretense of,

you know, having embraced and adopted, quote unquote, progressive causes, but really it being solely about money. You know, I believe all of this woke capitalism will end when it fails to make money for people, because at the end of the day, that's what they care about. That's all they ever cared about. It was a shield. You know, Bud Light is not going back. They are not. It didn't work. It put their business in the, you know, in the ground. And so I think at the end of the day, you're right, for most people, now they won't admit that they were wrong in the past, but they'll sort of pivot away from this sort of woke capitalism and get back to what makes businesses money, which is great product, engaging marketing, engaging the broadest possible group of consumers. They're going to move away from all this other stuff, but it's going to take a really long time.

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Disney's Young Woman and the Sea. Streaming on Disney Plus this Friday. I don't want to fall into the weeds but the bud light thing was fascinating because i i mean i think they sent those cans out to like let's just make this a thousand people with their pictures on them so jennifer say got some brian mulvaney got some or what uh dylan mulvaney got but dylan just ran with it right i mean that was just like they didn't they didn't even was just like, they didn't, they didn't even see that coming. Right. They didn't. I think what they did, I mean, it's typical kind of, um, social media marketing or celebrity seating, you know, at Levi's,

we would customize jeans and send them to certain celebs or influencers and they would post of themselves wearing the product. That's the point. So the point was to send a custom cam to Dylan and have that person, you know, do exactly what Dylan did, which is post a picture of themselves with the cam and to, you know, appeal. They didn't think it through, you know, to appeal to Dylan's followers. I think probably a ton of followers. I don't know. But nothing's just targeted. Obviously, in an age of the internet, nothing kind of stays focused and targeted. And I think what people misunderstand, it was just such a miscalculation in terms of who their audience is, who their target consumer is, and what they are rejecting about that kind of method of

marketing. They're not rejecting, it's not that they're not, it's not that they're bigots and they hate trans people. They're rejecting the ideology that says there is no such thing as male and female. That's what they're rejecting because it's such a fundamental lie, you know, and to be asked to live with lies and pretend that lies are true is for some people, it just can't do it. I won't do it. I wouldn't pretend that we needed to lock children up at home for their own good during COVID. I will not live that lie. It's a dangerous lie. Let me, I'm going to, I'm going to pivot here real quick and get you back into that conversation about gender roles here, but but i'm gonna call them sex roles so do you think that the only distinction is is that is the penis in the vagina well the distinction is the gametes

you produce sperm or you produce eggs i guess that's the real distinction. Okay, but what about in terms of anything else? You think that there's anything else? Like, I don't know. I'm going out here on a limb, but like female chickens, they sit on eggs, and the man maybe goes out and scratches worms. I've never had chickens. I don't know. But like that there's like other roles also in order for the. Well, I think because of our biology, certain roles have evolved to make more sense, given our biology. Right. Yeah. Right.

I mean, if I have if I am pregnant for nine months with a child, I have bonded with that child before the man has. Let's be clear. You know, a lot of men struggle in the early days. They don't feel that same connection right off the bat to a, to a baby. And then I spend the next year nursing the child and sleeping next to the child. It's just different. Like, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's look at that. Like that mean that a man can't be an amazing father to a very young baby. It doesn't mean that a gay guy can't be an amazing father. So I think, look, there's room for variation.

Like I said, I'm an ambitious person. I'm out in the world. I'm pretty assertive in the workplace, all of these things. Are those traditionally female characteristics? No, but that's me. When you're walking down the street at night in San Francisco, do you like it that you're with a man who, if there's danger around or, you know, do you feel safer when you're with a man? I don't know if I'd feel safe anywhere in San Francisco. Fair, fair.

When does the movie come out? Generation COVID? Well, we're editing now. There's a trailer that you can watch on YouTube or we have a give send go. You can see the trailer there. It's called Generation COVID. And we're hoping to, you know, edit it and be done with it in the next couple of months and release it this year. I need to get distribution now. So you won't self-distribute? I ideally would have a mainstream streamer distribute. Is there, are there, is that a popular, has the tide turned? Like, are there people out there who are willing to, um, tangle with a movie like that? Not sure. That's tell so so much truth not so sure that there are but i'm

gonna try yeah you may want to check out this movie fall of uh minneapolis okay and i don't i don't even know if they have a distributor it's crushing on um on uh on youtube are um will you be releasing a book with the movie also? No. No, okay. Just a movie. So you're there at Levi's. This has all happened between 2020 and 2022, and you start becoming more and more vocal, and people start talking to you at work. They start telling you like, hey, you need to chill. How can they tell you that if you're so senior?

Just the HR people are telling you that? My peers in HR and corporate communications. Yeah. And do you know, do you know right away? When do you know in this journey that, oh, there's going to be a collision course and ultimatum is going to be given? I didn't know right away because I thought that I, naive perhaps, but, you know, I had started speaking out in March of 2020. I didn't get the first talking to or the first call until September of 2020. I lay all this out in the book. And I really thought, see, when the private schools opened in the fall of 2020, I thought everyone would see the light at that point, that they wouldn't abide this hypocrisy of having private schools open and the public schools closed. To me, that was such blatant hypocrisy, right?

Like Gavin's kids are going to school and they don't have to take the injection. What's the hypocrisy? Yeah, I just thought at this point, people are going to rise up. There's going to have to be a change because, you know, good people are not going to sit by and allow for all the rich white kids to get to have normal lives and all the kids in public schools to just suffer. And that's exactly what everyone allowed to happen. So I didn't think it would be a collision course, because I thought the world would change. I thought the world would open up, you know, I thought people would see that this was not working, and that it was discriminatory and bigoted and all these things.

That's not what happened. And so I guess I would argue, I guess I would say by the middle of 2021, I sort of knew at that point that I was on a collision course and that it was too late. Cause even at that point, if I stopped and I just stopped posting and I stopped writing op-eds and I stopped, you know, leading rallies and I, there was too much out there already. Like I was already toast at that point. I think. Why did so, do you ever get to the bottom of why and these are numbers i'm going to take from your book um why so many people we respect and love and who are intelligent didn't look at john iannotti's statement of you have a 0.2 chance chance dying, not what the WHO says of a 3.4% dying. And John Iannotti is clearly…

The leading researcher. Yeah, and more prestigious than anything. I mean the WHO, I mean there's – you only have to scratch the surface this hard to see how corrupt it is. Let's not even be that mean and say corrupt, how it's influenced, that it's strongly influenced. How – did you ever think maybe you were going crazy you're like what am I like what's going on because you and I are in the hive I mean you were crazy in the hive I mean you were an ant and a beehive I mean you were so out of place yeah I did occasionally think I was going crazy but I quickly kind of shook myself first of

all most people didn't read anything. They looked at the headlines in the New York Times and watched CNN, and they thought that made them informed. So most people weren't kind of going beneath the surface to read the actual studies and then read the footnote in the study and click on the link and look at the actual data. Nobody was doing that. And the New York Times and CNN were horrible, you know, fear mongering, horrible, not journalistic outfits at all. I mean, I have a special place in my heart for for the press in terms of how poorly they performed during this period. They published government issued talking points as if it was journalism. They completely failed. They did not perform their duty as the fourth estate.

They did not interrogate the issues. They discredited anyone for asking questions and pushing back. And I don't mean people like me. I mean doctors like, you know, Dr. Bhattacharya. These are very well-respected, highly esteemed people, esteemed institutions. So most people just never read that stuff. They just, you know, and even, you know, a couple, about six weeks ago, the New York Times just published an op-ed saying the startling, you know, evidence is in, you know,

the terrible impact, the learning loss, et cetera, closed schools. There's nothing startling about this, but suddenly now, three and a half years later, the New York Times decides it's OK to publish it and tell us all that it's OK to talk about this now. But what people who have been reading The New York Times and The New York Times alone this whole time think is, well, the evidence changed. So now The New York Times is on. Yeah, people say that all the time. No one knew. I'm like, yeah, we did. Everybody knew. And so that kind of shit pisses me off. But most people just didn't read it. And they just, you know, took in their usual news sources, and they didn't question or challenge, and they thought they were informed. And we were the idiots doing our own research. That's how they looked at it. But most people also, even if it didn't smell right, or feel right,

they were just willing to go along. Most people, I would argue, you know, 80% of people, they would rather stand with the crowd than stand apart and do the right thing. They do not want to challenge. They don't want to put themselves in harm's way. They don't want the social opprobrium, you know, let alone putting their job at risk and any of that. They don't want any of that. And so even if they thought it sounded maybe not quite right, they went along. I mean, a lot of people said to me, okay, maybe you have a point, but why do you have to say it? Why can't you just go along? It'll end soon enough. Well, it didn't end soon enough. It's three years. And now, you know, we're reinstituting some of these mandates in some places. We're four

years in. And because children were being harmed and small business owners were harmed and old people were harmed and people. Devastated. Harmed is a real understatement. It tore apart the fabric of our society. I mean, even for me who didn didn't go along with anyone, anything and push back my life is my life changed in like, just unbelievable ways. I mean, I'm at home more than I'm just less social, like everything we all pivoted and turned inward in ways that I don't think are good for us as a society. Would you ever move back to are you glad you're out of California? I will never go back there. Yeah. Yeah. Did you like California when you were here? I did. Yeah. What about San Diego? Did you ever spend time down there? I do. I don't want to be anywhere near a state that Gavin Newsom is in charge of. Yeah, he's not a good dude. Do you think he knows he's a bad person? Yeah. No.

So he just has a blind spot. Anyone knows you're a bad person. I don't think anyone knows. Man, the hypocrisy that he was involved in, I mean, I'm sure you know the private school stuff, his kids not having to get injections, all that shit is wild. Yeah, he's a terrible person, but that's not the story he tells himself. Wow, that's incredible. Would you ever run for office, Jennifer? No interest.

That sounds horrible. What about all the skills that you have for – Shit, I can push back on this if you want. Targeting audiences and selling them shit. Do you do consulting for that? I have been doing it. Like, hey, we need to rebrand. They made this shit. Yeah, that's mostly what I've been doing for the last year. audiences and selling them shit um do you do consulting for that like if skittles like hey we need to rebrand they made this shit yeah that's mostly what i've been doing for the last year i wrote a book i'm making the movie and i've been doing consulting but i'm launching my own

brand in a couple months apparel brand oh wow congratulations thanks oh have you have you spoken publicly about that anywhere i have mentioned it on my own subsec, but I'm not saying it launches in March. But that's all I'll say for now. For boys or girls? It's both. And it'll be online stuff? Yep. And does it cover the torso or the legs and hindquarters?

All of the above. All of those full, full, full, full covered for the body. Bathing suits. No, not yet. Wow. I'm so excited for you. Hey, how about when I was so happy when you mentioned this in your book? How about seven for all of mankind? I was so happy when you mentioned this in your book.

How about Seven for All of Mankind? I had completely forgotten about that brand, but I remember seeing the first time my wife was wearing those. I was like, holy shit. They are the Lululemon of jeans. They crack the code. Everyone's ass looked great in them. Yeah. How did they do that?

Do you know? Oh, my God. That brand is so dead in the water now. Is it? Yeah. What happened? Can you tell me about that brand? What happened?

Did they just explode on the scene and everyone's like, what the hell? I took my wife when I saw her in those for the first time, I took her somewhere. I was like, Hey, well you just try these on. We'll just buy as many as you fucking want. I just love the way she looked in them. I'm not even a fashion. Probably not. Could call her and ask. I haven't seen him around in forever she's she lives in um athletic plant pants now oh yeah yeah um yeah i mean that was the era and

they sort of kicked it off this sort of new era of like premium denim the first being like back in the day with calvin klein um i don know. It was just like a rocket ship. It took off, but it was sort of one style, one silhouette. It was kind of that lower rise with a boot cut leg in the 2000s. I remember the design on the pocket. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, premium jeans in general, because they cost, what, like 120 bucks?

Premium jeans in general are not that popular now. What does that mean? Premium? Meaning like a hundred dollars and up. Do they feel different? Are they made different? Are they just a higher price tag? Probably both. It probably has, they're probably made of more expensive fabric. And, um, Oh yeah. They've completely lost their way their way they're not they were nothing like this yeah no one cares about seven anymore um but but they were the big they they shot up and they were

like holy shit for a little bit well yeah and it started a whole category it wasn't just seven there were a whole bunch of different i mean they were the leading one but there were a whole bunch of different brands that kind of popped up in that category. And that made it difficult for brands like Levi's that just didn't seem kind of cool anymore. But then the premium brands kind of died. And brands like Levi's really, I mean, the, the, here's what I would say about seven one, it was just a trend. And so they didn't sort of build a brand for the long term, people didn't keep coming back, it was built on one particular style. And if you don't continue to kind of push the market forward and offer new styles that people are going to want, then no one's going to keep you have your one or two pairs. That's enough. So they just became sort of not cool really fast. I mean, they had like a five year run. I mean, they had like a five year run.

Cave Dastro. She still sounds liberal, sleaky. She's just like Sevan. There's still little shreds of liberalism flowing through their veins. Find me a tree to hug. Find me. My crowd is not. I've been on a similar journey as you, kind of just like finding cracks in my cohort and being like, oh, man, what have they done? What are they doing? I thought we were supposed to be cool with this. Yeah. Yeah.

Did you – since this happened with these particular injections, have your views on injections in their totality? Have you gone down any of those, explored any of those avenues? Yeah, I definitely have. Did you read this book called Dissolving Illusions? No, I didn't read that one, no. Have you heard of that one? I believe my husband has all of them. Oh, yes. I mean, my, yeah, I think, yeah, I think, well, I'll just put it this way.

I think efficacy of all of them has certainly been called into question for me, and I don't believe anything should be mandated. I don't think we should force anyone to take any medication. Yeah. Isn't, isn't, isn't that fascinating? They, they want to enforce that our kids take drugs through injection in order to attend school. Like when you start like saying these things out loud, you're like, wait a second. None of my kids got any injections and i thought my wife was bat shit crazy but i didn't fight back yeah and then and then covid rolled around and i started doing all sorts of research and i was like holy shit you were right and she's like i've been telling

you ding dong well i think and i you know i always sort of question this um i think the mass medicalization, like vaccines aside, the mass medicalization, this sort of rush to diagnose a child and label a child, which then puts you on this treadmill of getting medicalized from a very young age. I find this incredibly alarming. Our kids are on more drugs than ever before. They're in more therapy than ever before, and they're more unhappy than ever before. So clearly this is not effective and this is not working. And I think one of the best decisions I ever made was not getting my kids on that, that treadmill, you know, my older children, you know, I don't know how old, how old are your children? Seven, seven and nine. Okay. So there's still little, um, you know, I have a 23 year old

and a 20 year old, like you go through stuff. Life can be hard sometimes for kids, you know, maybe they have anxiety and maybe they don't fit in and maybe they do. So what? Get them outside, run around, help them find something they love to do. Help them not care what other people think of them. Help them not care if they're a little weird or different than the other kids. Who cares? That's a superpower. You know, the minute you get your kid on that, that treadmill and you get them into therapy and they get a diagnosis and then they get medicalized, that is, it's just a destructive path. It's not working. Uh, I, this, um, uh, friend of mine who he, um, he wrote on his Instagram many years ago and I saw it and I thought it was just so good. I think the number was 80%. He says, if your child's under

five and the only thing you need to know as a parent is they should be outside 80 percent of their waking hours. And I remember thinking, wow. And I use that. My kids are seven, seven and nine. As long as they're outside, everything's good. And then another one of my friends whose son just became the quarterback for the Chicago Bears, he said, the bar is set so low for kids. If you want to be a good parent, you only have to do two things. You have to not give your kid a cell phone

and have them do CrossFit. And he's like, and they'll be in the top 1%. And I was like, wow. It is fascinating to me, though, that someone who would claim they had a mental illness wouldn't first try not using their phone for one month before taking drugs. Like just as an experiment. How about, hey, how about you just don't use your phone? You switch to a flip phone for one month before taking drugs? Like just just as an experiment. How about hey,

how about you just don't use your phone? You switch to a flip phone for one month. Don't don't go on the internet or don't use social media for one month. I mean, that doesn't seem extreme to me. I don't I don't disagree. You love social media. You like it. Like as a marketing person. I mean, love it. I certainly see the destructive. I see how destructive it is. I try to I manage it in my own life. It certainly doesn't take over or define my own life. You know, I love it for particular purposes. I use it to market my book or my film. And, you know, it's a small piece of my life. How are you on time? I have to run pretty soon. How long do you normally go? Uh, 90 minutes, but I don't want to let you go. I'm afraid I'll never see you again. Um, uh,

I want, I want to go to the end of the story, the end of the journey at Levi's or the beginning, the beginning of the next journey. They can you tell me the story about how they basically said your job is, you know, basically you are climbing. You were in the next level was going to be CEO and they finally decided you weren't going to be CEO CEO. So they said, hey, we need to find someone to replace you to start grooming to be CEO. So they said, hey, we need to find someone to replace you to start grooming to be CEO. In the meantime, can you just hold tight? And then when you leave, we'll give you a million dollars. Yeah. I mean, that's basically how it happened. There was over the course of 2021, there were several meetings saying you're next in line for CEO or you and this other guy. If you just stop doing what you're doing on social media, you could maybe be CEO and do these other three things. Then the other guy left.

Which is a lot of money. Once you become CEO, that's a lot of money. I know. I think it's funny that people are like, there's people who are like, you weren't offered a million dollars. I'm like, do you know how much the CEO makes in a year? Like the CEO makes, depending on the value of the stock, anywhere between like $15 and $45 million in a year. You think that giving me a million dollars, that was nothing. Anyway. By the way, there were a thousand. It's anywhere from a $4 to $8 billion company, Levi's.

And she had a thousand employees downline from her with 7 to 12 direct reports. I mean, anyone who doesn't think they offered you a million dollars is they have no fucking idea what they're talking about. I know. Oh, and this was your boss. So Levi Strauss, CEO, Chip Berg, appointed in 2011, tenured totally. So he made $16 million last year. Right, and in 2021, he made $43 million.

Yeah. He's doing good. Does Chip have his own plane? No, I don't think so. That was not a Levi's thing. He's missing out. Anyway, I was told if you stop, you could be CEO. And I think they figured that would be enticement enough. But like I said, I was always a reluctant corporate executive. So I was like, I don't know, we say that we care about using your voice, I'm going to keep using mine. And then it was basically in January of 22, that I was told there's no place for you at the company anymore, because of, you know, how outspoken you've been on this subject and blah, blah, blah. There's no place for you, but we would like for you, well, you can't be CEO. And to your point, you can't be the brand president anymore because we need somebody in the brand president role that will be CEO. So you're like a blocker in corporate parlance.

But can you stay until we find someone? Because we don't have anyone else. And I decided that I was not going to do that and that I was not going to sign the paperwork that basically would have been a non-disclosure agreement about why I was pushed out in order to get the money. And I just, I quit publicly publicly instead but I was pushed out I was bullied out why not just hang tight and like if I was your friend I probably would have given you shitty advice I'd have been like hey just hang tight and make them fire you that probably isn't terrible advice but I that's not the path I chose. It's hard to explain how brutal it was for the two years of me pushing back on the policies and what I was dealing with every day in the company.

I couldn't be there anymore. I mean, I was bullied daily for two years. I was made to do an apology tour. I mean, I didn't apologize. That apology tour made my skin crawl in the book when I read that part. Boy, you guys, there's so much we're not talking about that we talk about on this show regularly. You basically ran the kind of the DEI part of Levi Strauss that gave a voice to black employees, right? I was the sponsor. Yeah. I was the executive sponsor. Man that I, I detest HR and DEI. I think that they are places where cancers fester.

Boy, I really, I really detest them. I think that those are really bad people. Good for her. Mad respect for that. Yeah. All right. See? See? See?

There you go. Coming back. There you go. I don't care, by the way. The one person who wrote, she's still a liberal. You know what? I am. I believe in classical liberal values.

I do. Tell me one. I want to see if I have that too. I believe in free speech. Oh yeah, me too. Yeah. Okay. That's a classical liberal value. The Democrats right now don't believe in it. And arguably the Republicans don't either. Everybody wants to censor speech they don't like. The Democrats are more, I think, egregiously violating these principles at the moment. But I think Republicans do it as well. So we're sort of alone. I'm probably more libertarian than anything. There's this line in the book you say that really excited me because it's a way i like to think too by the way i i've undersold miss jennifer say

she was for a crowned uh uh forbes most influential cmos one year billboard magazine had her most influential um people in music and fashion um okay two things this isn't what i was going to say but i want to talk about this really quick too snl made fun of one of your campaigns and instead of being offended or pushing back you leaned into it and they they said they yeah they basically did a skit where levi's was making these ridiculous jeans that would fit everyone so you're like okay so you made actually made these jeans that were supposed to be made to make fun of you and sent them to the cast. People should go watch it.

It's called Levi's Wokes. This is in 2017, September 2017. I remember I was watching it. I don't even watch Saturday Night Live. I don't think I probably had it on. I think somebody texted me and was like, oh my gosh, you got to put this on. And I thought it was hilarious, but my team was freaking out and I'm getting all these texts like they're mocking us. I'm like, no, we can be in to put this on. And I thought it was hilarious, but my team was freaking

out and I'm getting all these texts, like they're mocking us. I'm like, no, we can be in on the joke. Let's make the, let's make the actual pants, but they were these shapeless, sizeless, colorless pants. It's really funny. And I sadly don't think Saturday Night Live would make such a fake ad right now. I don't think they'd do a skill like that right now. Anyway, they're making fun of. And you leaned into it. And that's something that I think that that is an art. We talk about this on the show all the time.

If someone makes fun of you, you should lean into it. Yeah. Just lean into it. Was that controversial when you decided to lean into it? Were people like, no, fuck that. This is offensive. No, everything was. We were all sort of

into it i think the thing now is though saturday night live wouldn't make a thing like this because it's making fun of wokeness not just woke capitalism but woke people they're making fun of it they'd never do that now yeah you wouldn't have the opportunity to lean into it or because they wouldn't make fun of themselves in that way. They are this now. Oh my goodness, so many interruptions this morning, but I'm loving the conversation with Jennifer. God, I hope it's not me who's interrupting. They're always being critical of me interrupting.

I apologize. She means in her life she has interruptions. Good, okay, I'm going to go with that. That's what I think she means. Okay, there was this, I'm looking, I think I to go with that. Thank you. That's what I think she means. Okay, there was this – I'm looking. I think I got the quote somewhere. You talk about this gaping hole. Let me see if I can find it in my notes here.

This religious gaping hole in our increasing secular hearts. Now, this is where there's like tension in the Jennifer Say character. And I think in mine too. Jennifer, hold on, hold on, hold on. Here we go. I think you and I both know that religion is really important. This is like a new idea to me

because in all of us somewhere, there's something where this idea, this operating system of religion needs to fit. So some people have put in Christianity. Some people have put in the Quran. Some people have put in Judaism. Some people have put in CNN. What's really scary is the people who claim they're atheists,

they're not atheists. They put fucking CNN in what you called this gaping hole. First, before we go into it too much, how do you know about that hole if you're not religious? How do you know about that spot in human beings? Are you that self-reflective? fill it. We want to believe in, um, there's something more than this, I guess. I, I don't have that, but I, I guess I suppose I live like I do. I suppose I sort of strive to live. I'm not a nihilist. You know, I don't think none of it matters. Um, I don't know. I guess I think it's just a reflection of our like innate humanness, you know. Did you have the New York Times and CNN in that hole and then and then you've carved it out and now it's just empty?

No, I have an empty hole. No, I did not. I never had the New York Times and CNN in that hole. And I guess, you know, some people, they have the Democratic Party, or they have a party in that, that whole, or the science has become the thing that fills the hole. And I just knew that as COVID emerged, and I saw people, atheists, you know, many people in my cohort sort of filling that with their party affiliation and the science, and this was all sort of how they identified, and this was the group, and this is what they believed in. I was like, hell no, that is not for me. Mine is filled with, I guess, the love I have for my family and my friends or my friends I still have. And truth and just sort of doing the right thing as I perceive it. I don't need some God to tell me what the right thing is.

I don't need that. I don't want that framework from either organized religion or Dr. Fauci. I don't want it. I want to decide for myself. Do you like this idea of if you see those as operating systems like you look at the different ones that are like you can see just civilizations that are using let's say the quran as their operating system or civilizations that are using the bible as their operating system for huge chunks of their humanity do you see one that's more valuable than the others like i see like

just look what's going on over in the middle east now you know there's 1.8 billion muslims there's only i don't know 15 million jews there's hardly million jews yeah the world uh and and you got these two operating systems one of them is like you know i'm not saying israel is perfect they forced it they were they forced everyone there to get the vaccine but they have running water they don't stone their women. You know what I mean? You could be gay there. 20% of the population is Arab, full citizens. They serve in the government. They serve on the Supreme Court. Right. So sometimes I'm like, yeah, I may not be Christian or I may not be Muslim, but the operating system I'm voting for, I don't think of them as religions. I think of them as operating systems. I'm like, I want those, I want the operating system that has those values. Treat your neighbors like they're supposed to be treated. Don't cover, leave the girls alone.

Don't, don't molest little boys. Like what's going on in Afghanistan. Those are Western democratic values. I don't know. Maybe those are Christian values. Cause this country was based on, on those, those values were based on Christianity, our forefathers. Maybe those are Christian values. Maybe, although I see a segment of the Christian right who very much believes that women should be home serving their husbands. Now, maybe they're not stoning women in the streets, but they have a fairly reductive view of, of women in general. Reductive.

I don't know the Christian, right. I believe in gay rights. I don't think the Christian right believes in gay rights. All right. Fair enough. Yeah. I believe in gay rights too. I believe. Here's the thing. I don't, what about this idea? I don't believe in gay rights. I just believe in rights. Like, I think what's happening is here. Right. I don't want to take I don't want I don't want groups to have rights. I want individual. I want individuals to have rights. I'm not going to argue that. Yeah. All right. Fine, exactly. So I don't know. I don't know. I think it seems like the values of the West are under attack. Western Enlightenment values are under attack. Hey. Israel represents that. And they're the only tiny little country the size of New Jersey and all of the Middle East that represents Western democratic ideals. Have you read any of the horrors that happened over there on October 7th in detail? Yeah. Yeah. I saw an article two days ago that I read here online. I can't even believe

what I read. I can't believe I was reading it out loud. It was like the naughtiest thing I'd ever read. It was, it was, yeah, I was there for three weeks in the summer. I was in Israel for three weeks. We did a family trip. My husband is an Israeli citizen. Wow. So you're getting back to your roots. Yeah. I mean, he was born there. He served, he did his military service in his twenties. He and his family, they're all Israeli citizens. They went and lived there in the seventies. His dad taught at the University of Tel Aviv. So I, you know, I had not had any connection to the place, but spent three weeks there the summer before all of the atrocities

and certainly have a lot of friends there and a lot of his family lives there. So following very closely. I will say one of the things I find very alarming about the cohort I found myself in, you know, because of COVID, you know, you have a lot of people that are questioning, I guess you have, you know, the, I'll shorthand it and call it plandemic folks who really believe everything is a giant conspiracy theory. And I guess I believe in some of that. But there's a lot of people when this happened in Israel that had been part of the cohort I found myself in that very quickly leapt to what I would call extreme anti-Semitism. And, you know, there's a lot of fracturing and splintering. And then you also

have Jews who've typically been Democrats who are now going, wait a minute, I'm not really on board with what a lot of the left and the far left in particular is saying right now. But I've been a bit, you know, alarmed at what we've seen here in this country as a response. You have a country that is brutally attacked. And then what results in that is anti-Semitism directed at the people who were actually attacked. Can't really imagine another scenario like that in the world. There's this – in my opinion – you have some crazy intersections too, by the way, in your thoughts on this.

But in my mind, the most privileged class in this country, and I hate that word, is the victim class. They're pretty much allowed to do whatever the fuck they want. And it's basically if we don't put a stop to it, we're going to – and it's going to – they're not going to destroy. It's our thought about there being a victim class is destroying the is destroying all the major cities in this country for sure. What's insane is that I don't think it's anti. I think it's anti-Semitism clumped up with. It's just it's just rich white people, rich, hardworking, successful white people. It's just rich white people, rich, hardworking, successful white people. They're the exact opposite.

At the victim class, you have this just no-money drug addict. I'll put there. And then at the other end, you have someone who has worked their ass off their whole fucking life and has worked their ass off. And there just happens to be – and they have a lot of money, and there just happens to be culturally Jews find sexy as being mating with someone who's smart and works hard that's part of their mating protocol and so they've mated this fucking group of people this cohort of people who works hard and makes a lot of fucking money and is singularly focused on

success I don't disagree that the sort of hatred or disdain directed at Jews is because they're viewed as not just white, but super white. So they're like- Successful. The top of the hierarchy. Successful. But here's what I would say. Over the course of history, Jews are scapegoated for all manner of

fear and disdain. It's sort of like the bigotry as old as time. So, you know, they've been hated for being successful. They've been hated for being, you know, dirty and filthy vermin. It's like Jews are used over the course of history as the scapegoat for all manner of anxiety, fear, panic. And so, yes, right now, that is the way in which Jews are scapegoated, but it has been different in the past. Jennifer, I'm 100 percent Armenian and my wife's 100 percent Ashkenazi. And so we got these three Armenian Jew boys and both both those countries. Armenia had its own Holocaust and the Jews had, you a Holocaust, and real ones, real ones. Millions of people marched down to the desert, women with their stomachs slit open, horrible, horrible shit, worse shit you can imagine.

And now both those countries are surrounded by people who use the Muslim operating system. Armenia is under a heavy attack right now also. And it's fascinating to me because, of course, my parents and all my surrounding family around me who's liberal is Democrat and Jews. And they cannot see they cannot look at it clearly. For some reason, there's they they want to feel bad for this victim class. They're still stuck in their Democrat team. It's a it's a trippy phenomenon. Yeah, the cognitive dissonance is I mean, I would argue even in my own family, I do see some of that Jewish Democrats since, you know, forever.

Right. But, you know, they're aware of some of the sort of like anti-Semitism on college campuses in the streets, but somehow they still attribute it to the right, even though it's all coming from the left at this point. Like they're confused. It's like triggering some like cognitive dissonance that they can't resolve at this point because their tribe is the left and they, I don't know, they just won't kind of sever ties. What's interesting too is, is how welcoming the right is. Yes. Beware of those who will welcome you yeah I'm struggling with the whole conspiracy thing too I don't think people realize how often it's just the intersection of similar interests that allow these

bad things to happen I don't think there's like two guys in a room twirling their mustache I don't think there's two guys in a room twirling their mustache and planning. I think there's it's more of a mass formation psychosis. I buy into that kind of construct. That, but also, don't forget, there were five women

in a room in San Francisco who were like, fuck, we're going to sell a lot of fucking jeans to these kids and there are also five men and five women in a room somewhere at pfizer headquarters being like we're gonna get we're gonna sell a lot of these you're not wrong yeah but i agree it's not there's not dr death up there yeah you believe in like like the depopulation thing like bill gates trying to depopulate the world and people putting all these clips together on instagram and you're like shit tongue slip you know like when the all the

tongue slips and yeah like he's like the vaccine's gonna kill you and then you're like wait a second did he really say that and then you're you think it's that's just people looking to see what they want to see maybe? I don't know. I think, I don't know. It's a whole other subject. I'm formulating my thoughts. I mean, I guess what also can happen is you can become so wealthy that you think you start to be able to influence things with your money. You can already have everything. So the next biggest thing you'd want to do would be to have influence

and you can start influencing the world in ways that like us peons can't even think about. Well, and you believe that if you have all that money, that you must be right about a whole lot of stuff. And so you should have the authority to insert your will on the people. Look, you have more money than, you know, 99.99. You have more money than everybody. You must be doing something right. That's what they believe. That's their value system. When you're a 16-year-old boy, you might think, God, it would be cool if just someday some girl would call me.

But if you're the sultan of fucking some country and you have the resources, you have three castles full of women. That's a whole separate issue. Yeah. I was just thinking metaphorically speaking. Yeah. I just want a car when I'm 16 and there's some guy who has his 75th Bugatti. Hey, when your movie comes out or when your marvelous clothes come out or when your next book comes out,

if there's anything I can ever do to, yeah, I, I, I'm absolutely tickled by the fact that you came on here and that i could pick your brain for two hours i really appreciate you jennifer yeah thanks for having me and thank you for the book and uh everyone should run out and get the book um unbuttoned and then also um i'm gonna watch tonight with my family um athlete it's called athlete day, right? Yeah. And it's on Netflix. Yeah. All right. Sweet. Awesome. All right. Miss say, thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. All right. Cheers. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Jennifer say Levi Strauss, former brand president. Uh, Sebi pull up Olivia's question. Jeez. And there there's a there's a comment to pull up another comment

oh shit where uh joseph what's up dude speaking to jews sinqua field is that june um i don't see uh jennifer how do you view Trump being taken off your ballot? Oh, too late. She's he's back on, I think. Listen, her book, there's so many questions I have for her. I want to have her on again. She's oh, yes. Yes. Yes, please. yes yes please liberal who found one issue to still I don't know I don't listen give them time call my wife.

Hello? Hey. Hey, hold on one second. I'm trying to get you hooked up to the Rodecaster. Shit. Hold on. Sorry. Hold on. Hold on. Sorry. Hold on.

Hold on. Hello? Hello? Testing one, two. Hey. What's wrong? Why can't I hook you up to the Rodecaster? How about now? How about now?

Can you guys hear? No? Hello? Hello? Hey, I'm going to call you back. Okay. Okay, bye. Let me see what's going on here. Can you guys hear that?

Me dialing? No. Why not? No. Oh, maybe I have it turned down. Oh, shit. There it is. There we go. Yeah, there we go.

oh there it is yeah there we go uh tomorrow by the way will be the uh uh next behind the scenes coming out thank you so much for your support guys it's fucking overwhelming I'm so stoked 4300 more signups and I'll do it next year

hi hey did you listen to that show i'm still listening oh i got a little behind oh how far in are you even are you even halfway um i think i'm more than halfway could you tell i was freaking out in the beginning i my i went my skin went flush for a second oh i wasn't watching oh i'm not i'm trying i don't think you could tell but did you see did you could you sense that i freaked out like like about six minutes in something happened to me my whole body like went like i got overwhelmed for a second but

i came back quickly yeah i'm trying to remember now okay so you didn't see me did you see me get freak out, Caleb? You started asking more questions more frequently. I don't know if that means you're freaking out. No, that means I was settling in. Yeah, anxious. Anxious. Yeah, I was anxious.

Oh, her voice is... Whose voice is sexy? Haley's or the other Jew? My Jew or that other Jew? It's a cultural thing. I just... I I don't know what I was just looking at I was I was like I had all these questions I wanted to ask her but then part of me was like hey just stay present go flow with the conversation and then at some point those two wires crossed and I felt all my skin started to tingle and I was like oh fuck am I like what's going on and then I just came back and then it was ended up being a great podcast but the first 10 minutes I was

touch and go like I was gonna faint oh my Jew Mike McCaskey yeah Haley Haley's just sexy period she's fun thanks Mike um all right I just feel i remember feeling a little anxious like i had this thought oh is she not what maybe you thought like i don't know you don't see eye to eye on a bunch of shit and i was trying to avoid it i was trying to avoid it but i wanted to feel around in the dark you know what i mean like you know like when like when the boys have a bruise on their leg and i'll touch it like just to see if it hurts i was doing that to her a few times i was like i want to touch some spots and see see what happens right and i was curious to see how she was gonna react like but you guys did great i thought you handled it well and she she stayed her ground but then seemed open-minded enough to hear

what you had to say but i think she's very like she knows what she wants she knows how she believes i respect the shit out of her i don't use that word very often but i so respect her it's crazy i totally do i want to send it to my mom and be like you just listen to this and hear this lady out because she can someone wrap up the show in 10 hailey jake chapman says can you wrap up the show in 10 words a powerful human stands up for kids fights to the death makes movie makes learn to the death. Makes movie. Makes movie. Learned. Likes Levi's.

Still. Proud of her Levi's. Yeah. Made me want to get a pair. I haven't had Levi's in forever. Fuck that. Don't get a pair. They're a shit company. They suck. You read her book.

It sucks. I wouldn't want sucks. Yeah. No, I wouldn't want to support them. But, yeah, I'm still listening. So, I'm excited to hear the rest. What's the plan today? Well, they're supposed to have tennis at 1,

Kumon Center at 2.30. Right now they're doing music, Armenian, Kumon. Is my dad still here? It's a very productive morning. Oh, yeah. I'm going to try to have lunch with Greg

before he leaves town. morning. Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm going to try to have lunch with Greg before he leaves town. Oh, okay. Do my parents stay the night again tonight? Yes. That's their plan. Two nights in a row. I know. Okay. I love you.

Bye. Okay. Love you, too. Bye, Caleb. Hi. Have a good day. Bye. Happy. Okay. Love you too. Hi, Caleb. Hi. Have a good day. Bye. Happy new year. Thank you. Have a good day. Caleb. Don't use that voice when you talk to my wife. Talk to her like a man. Don't be all nice to her. Don't use your lip. She's a four year old. She's a nice lady. I know. Yeah, I know she is. All right. I love you. Bye. Seve, you played it. Se seve you played it uh seve you played uh olivia uh seve you played things

safe she seemed like the uh the person that would just end the conversation or make it very uncomfortable i like tyker seve well i think as i think i can build a relationship with her um um i think i can build a relationship with her I'm going to ask her for her phone number now you think that's weird? hey can I have your phone number? shit I lost her email oh

son of a bitch I have to mark it unread before I. Oh, here we go. Okay. Oh, and she brought a couple. She brought two drinks. She brought a LaCroix. And she had a coffee Balance

Yeah Johnny yeah Caleb did sound like he's meeting his girlfriend's grandma For the first time Hi Let me lock your wheelchair It's unlocked It's my customer service voice Okay that was cool um

Jennifer say uh tomorrow Greg Glassman um Thursday Kyra oh Thursday there's two podcasts no shut up and scribble and then car Milligan in the afternoon early evening and then Bella Martin oh I'm going

on Pedro's podcast on Friday. Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. Exciting. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Caleb, the talking walrus.

Oh, my God. Oh, my goodness. He's getting better. Better insult goodness. He's getting better. Better insults. It's good. That is fucking gnarly. Wow. Just straight from Facebook or one listener just trolls the show.

PP Peters. You think that that dude just randomly found the show or you think he's a CrossFitter? I think that's just some random dude on Facebook's like, yep, that's my thing to go fuck with these guys over here. don't know he's getting a little close i went to his pages he doesn't it's just like an anonymous page just a spam account so just a trolling page yep exactly holy shit rich holton do you think she'll call back and ask you to take the episode down

wow damn happens one time Do you think she'll call back and ask you to take the episode down? Wow. Damn. Happens one time. Pedro will. I think Pedro will do the open. Why wouldn't he do the open? Everyone's going to do the open. Open's going to be big this year. Okay. So there's no more shows today, and then tomorrow we don't have – do we have tomorrow's show scheduled?

I don't think so. We're still trying to figure out when to post the behind-the-scenes, I think. scenes i think will made an interesting comment will basically said that you shouldn't acknowledge gender and sex as being having different definitions i because when you do that you're just playing their game i disagree i think people who don't acknowledge them as different having different definitions are playing their game here's the thing. Gender is just your imagination. It's just made-up shit. Like traffic laws. It's just made-up shit. It's fine. And sex is not made-up. What did she say? I said it's just penis and vagina, but she said it's like sperm and egg. Yeah. Gametes or something no he was not being facetious will brandstetter was not being uh facetious now gender is like gravity no gravity is like uh the phenomenon of how objects move in the in the universe is explained by gravity yeah maybe it's just some

people's brains can't grasp it you think the difference can your brain grasp it what i'm saying or no yeah i get what you're saying i don't know if people care to be that specific about they just use the words that come to mind this as they come i guess i don't know here's what i think it is i think that some people aren't aware that they're having thoughts they think they are their thoughts they're just asleep on autopilot reacting to everything and that if you wake them up they wake up for a split second and say i'm not asleep and then they go right back to sleep and their consciousness just seamlessly connects those two points. They need like some Wim Hof.

To like slow down. Some Vipassana? Yeah. How about that when I brought that up to her she didn't like that that was interesting for sure Corey Leonard once again so Seve can see it in 50 years nursing home attendance

will have to explain to trans Alzheimer's patients what happened to their cocks like 700 times holy shit We'll have to explain to trans Alzheimer's patients what happened to their cocks like 700 times. Holy shit. Holy shit. I just imagine. Holy shit.

Like a normal old guy. You know how they all convene in one common area? And they're all just kind of like drifting around in the old folks' home? I imagine one of them bringing up their cock and balls being missing, and then another one just losing it and just laughing at them. It's like, for hours. I imagine that would happen every day until they're dead. Will Bransler, the origin or differentiation was in high academia, the place the gender revolution came from, my thoughts at least. Yeah.

But how would you point to something like – so, for example, let's say in Russia the Baryshnikov outfit is really masculine, right? for example let's say let's say in russia the baryshnikov outfit is really masculine right and in um in uh the united states it's just it just means you love to suck cock it's the opposite of masculine right um i don't know maybe and someone could argue that sucking cock's masculine i don't know those are just constructs right at that point i'm suggesting that maybe there are some things that make us men that differentiate us from women in terms of shit i'll go with something as superficial as what our diet should be maybe um one of them is just completely made up and then again maybe it's not maybe pink is somehow more attractive maybe there's some explanation Maybe pink is somehow more attractive.

Maybe there's some explanation that pink is somehow more attractive to women because those were the plants that they were supposed to pick when they were the gatherers and and men like black and brown because they're the hunters. I don't know. But I'm not buying. I'm not buying. I'm not buying – there's some parts of our behaviors or what we're supposed to do that I do think coincide with our sex, some part of our role. She even says some shit in her book that was – she says some shit in her book that was very interesting. I don't want to bring it up now because she's not here to defend herself, but spots that like weren't connecting for me that i want to have her on again and ask her like hey you said this here but you said this here jake chapman i like pink and brown jesus criminy disgusting

uh oh bernie must have said something good here uh the problem isn't the reality of things it's people seeking to manipulate language to control our society exactly bernie says extra sloppy that's how the word liberal went from describing the liberation from central powers to the liberation from responsibility wow why it's called classical liberal. Oh shit. I didn't know that. Will Branstetter. I don't think our only differentiating factors are physical attributes like

vagina and penis. There are innate parts of us of each sex that are intangible yeah i guess that's what i was kind of trying to say too i'm not sure i fully understand what you're saying but yes yeah and what are those and like you know obviously since money's just a fucking construct of you know that we've made up. It's not necessarily the fact that a woman would make more than a man that would put it out of whack, but what the implications are because of the power we've given money. What we've allowed – power is not the right word – the resource of what money is. Anna, Anna, hi. look at that

even with this fucking crazy talk still fucking more members coming in Kenneth she is definitely the alpha in the marriage Kenneth Lapp she doesn't like the traditional wife traditional Definitely the alpha in the marriage. No, I can't. She doesn't like the traditional wife, traditional wife movement because she thinks it's holding down women. My opinion.

Yeah, we got to have her back on and ask her that as we become more and more friends with her. How many members so far? Not 5000. I need 5000. That would be $100,000 a month. I think that's what I deserve. That's what would be fair. You guys don't appreciate me.

So many fucking members already, Zach. It's crazy. Like, it's close to, like, where I'm gonna, like, I wonder, like, am i gonna have to be like extra nice or like suck someone's dick at crossfit next year to make sure i get to do the behind the scenes it's getting like that many it's getting close we're like halfway to that many members i bet i'm gonna have to do something to compromise my my gender

your orientation yeah but they compromise something Your orientation Yeah No not 1200 Not yet Good guess though I like it But significantly more than I thought Significantly more than I thought Can people see it publicly? Can I keep it a secret or do, or do it? Can people see it?

I don't think so. Oh, good. I'm only telling like a hundred of my closest friends. Ah, 600. Ah 600 Will Branson are way more than I thought too You guys are awesome Yeah it's crazy It's a pain in the ass

Who the fuck buys anything on YouTube My goodness How many members do you project to lose After behind the scenes I don't know. All of them? I don't know. I assume all of them.

Here's the thing. I have to reiterate to you. I did not make the behind the scenes for any reason other than I wanted to do it. And I'm not going to do anything to keep the members. I think that people who find value in the station will stay members and people who don't won't. But I do like this model. If this can make my life easier and more fun and get me more excited so I can, you know, in charge for it and do it. Fucking A. That's killer.

That is so great. I'm pumped. But I don't want to do stuff i don't want to feel all but i'm not i don't by no i don't feel obligated to keep any of the members i'm not like i'm not trying to do that well that's kind of bull that's kind of a lie i do want to keep the viewers if everyone just stopped watching the show wouldn't do the do the show. That's for sure. If I had five viewers every morning, I would not do the show. So somewhere I'm lying or I'm not in touch with the reality of it. I'm not sure where it is. But you get it.

Oh, what's this? I am a S-A-H-M who serves her husband and isn't allowed to spend money or I'd be a member but I'm oppressed. Stay at home mom. Oh. Took me a second too. That's awesome. God I love a stay at home mom.

Adam Blakeslee. Not saying you did. I was just wondering if you went with more of a Planet Fitness model, it would keep a constant stream of money. Yeah, dude, let me tell you. I hope everyone stays. I ain't poo-pooing it.

But I'm happiest at just doing what I'm doing, and it's working. So I don't want to rock the boat. rock the boat. Dildo, all CEO membership money will go to Hiller's legal fees after Spiegel and Sporty Beth inevitably sue him for slander in the coming calendar year. God, that would be fucking crazy if they did that. That would be all out holy war.

That would be crazy. That would be all out holy war that would be crazy that would be pretty nuts do you know how much fucking content we could make around something like that holy shit yeah see it would fucking become a content fuck dude that would be amazing

I throw Mikey swoosh in there too finally from twitch we have it's buh buzz I need to try to get a twitch prime membership through twitch. Oh Oh Shit is that true will Interesting. I think there are definitely some features right now that are only rolled out to people with over a million subs

Well, fuck that sucks. Yeah our features and our abilities suck. I mean, I'm thankful YouTube has this, but it's pathetic what our options are. So, who knows? All right. I can't hold it anymore. All right. Oh. I'm getting volunteers to go on the TDC Bible study podcast from my friends and family. All right.

I will see you guys. Oh, slander equals false statement. So good point. All right, guys. I'll see you tomorrow. Greg Glassman in the morning, I believe. And then although he did say he's driving tomorrow morning at three in the morning, so maybe not. Who knows?

But Greg Glassman. And then after that. The behind the scenes episode one B.