The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Joe Maddon

Episode Date: June 27, 2023

Former baseball manager, coach, and player Joe Maddon (author of "The Book of Joe: Trying Not to Suck at Baseball and Life") talks about bringing Andy's Chicago Cubs a much-needed championship, his love for the road, finding his way to baseball, meditation, and much more.

Hello everyone, this is Andy Richter and we got another episode of the three questions here today. And I am talking today with the author of the book of joe trying not to suck at baseball in life joe madden who helped my cubs to end their drought of 108 years was that what it was it was 108 years uh and i didn't feel all of that obviously because i was kind of a late fan but it was it was and um after we had won i mean all the all the Cub fans come out and they were just so grateful every place they go even now I don't care where it is I could be in Chicago I could be I'm in Tampa Florida it could be at Los Angeles it's incredible the world is just like infested with Cub fans and they are so grateful for that moment and they're they're they're wonderful

they're they don't want anything they're not even asking for autographs or pictures. Thank you. Thank you for what you did. We've been, for years, we've been wanting this to occur. My grandparents did not make it, whatever. And that's the conversation and it's really appreciated. Yeah. Yeah, no, it was amazing.

I grew up with a stepfather, a plumber stepfather, because I know you grew up with a stepfather, a plumber stepfather who, uh, cause I know you're, you grew up in a plumber's household, um, who had season tickets from like 1970 on. So they were about $4 a piece when we, when he got them and he kept them. So for me as a little kid, I played little league, but I wasn't big into, into baseball or big into sports for that matter. But so I would get taken to Cubs games and it would, you know, and with the attention league, but I wasn't big into baseball or big into sports for that matter. But so I would get taken to Cubs games and it would, you know, with the attention span that I got, I'm good for about two or three innings, but it was mostly, you know, the

hot dogs and the Cracker Jack. And then it was really kind of like in my adult life that I started to sort of, because you know, it was like baseball was there, but I didn't choose it. Right. But, you know, it was like baseball was there, but I didn't choose it. And it wasn't until in my adult life that I really started to appreciate what an interesting, captivating game that it is. And it's the only thing I really, I mean, I like going to see people play basketball. I like going to see people play football. But baseball is the only thing that really grabs me because it's just, it's the most dramatic of the games.

It's an intellectualized game also. I mean, you really have to pay attention to it. I mean, I know it's a little bit different now that it had been in, listen, I am like the biggest fan of the National League game. I was, I was that one guy that was upset. Maybe there was others. There's just so much more to think about in the National League game, especially the Dugout.

I'll argue that with anybody. But yeah, listen, I was, I was. Just because of the lack, the lack of the DH the game, especially the dugout. I'll argue that with anybody. But yeah, listen, I was... Just because of the lack of the DH? Yeah, because the pitcher involved. You have to keep track of the pitcher the whole game. When you're going to pitch it, you may have to pitch it sooner. When you have to move the batting, whether you do your double switch because

you might want to get multiple innings out of a certain pitcher. I want to upgrade my defense. I got to be wary of that and how that's going to impact how this lineup turns. That's the part that nobody, the DH, beautiful. Everybody wants more offense. Everybody, it's fun. Offense is fun.

I get that. But I like a pure game of baseball. I like when it's pitched well, when it's caught the ball, the ball's caught well, when you catch the ball on defense, when you run the bases aggressively and well. I'm a fundamentalist with this game now i've been involved in the more progressive component of this team too with the analytical stuff but at the end of the day the team that plays a better fundamental game with baseball on a daily basis normally wins with good baseball players so i mean that's where i

come from all this and final point i mean chicago wrigley you got a chance to hang out at wrigley oh yeah there is major there's the major there's big leagues and then there's, then there's the big leagues. Wrigley and the Cubs are the big leagues. I'm here to tell you that, that, that's based on a daily basis. Doesn't happen anywhere else. I, I, I agree with you. And I'm, I feel particularly lucky because now I kind of have two teams. I mean, I, I had to sort of realize after living in Los Angeles for 22 years, I live

here. And the Dodgers are such a fun team to watch and certainly in the last few years. But I get to go, I mean, when I go see my teams, I'm getting to go to just the two most amazing baseball parks that there are. I mean, Dodger Stadium, it's just such a beautiful place to watch a baseball game. I really love it there. And Wrigley, yeah. Last time I went to Wrigley, my sister, who had been pestering me for years and for years to use my clout, I say with air quotes, to get us a box.

clout, I say with air quotes, to get us a box. So I came a couple years ago in the spring, and I had my assistant, because I have too much Midwestern shame to do it myself. I had my assistant reach out to the Cubs and say, Andy's coming to the game. Do you have a box? And they gave us a beautiful box, and I can't remember who they were playing. I want to say maybe, I don't even remember, but it was early in the season and it was 46 degrees. Oh yeah. Yeah.

It was, it was a classic early Chicago Cubs baseball game. And, uh, and it was, it's just such a wonderful, wonderful place to see a game. It's so much fun. I mean, they can be frustrated. My, my younger brother, who is much more serious about, I mean, like in terms of getting his heart broken and getting upset and a bad game ruining his day after the Cubs won the world series, he had, he said, okay, now I can kind of, I can kind of step away from a little bit. He said, I feel like I'm getting out of a bad marriage, you know,

because you get frustrated with ownership and stuff. But he was just happy they won, so he could kind of just put it behind him a little bit. That's the refrain I hear from a lot of the Cubs fans. Yeah. I mean, I know you understand, but from my perspective, I was an American leaguer. I was with the eagles for so many years yeah and in tampa bay so i've been an american leaguer i'd never been to rigley field until 2014 when i went there with the rage we played there oh wow i think it was august and we get there the bus pulls up i ran off that bus

i had my i was carrying my backpack i took backpack, threw it on the chair at a desk in the manager's office. I ran down that catacomb kind of thing. Went to the dugout, just sat down because I had to see the Ivy Wall. I was not disappointed. I mean, it's so, again, I'm into surrealistic moments. I think, you know, may all your surrealisms come true. I think that's even more pertinent than your dreams. So you're sitting there and you're looking out there and this is stuff I i'd seen on wgn for so many years i'd ridden my bicycle

out there once i used to take my bike on the road so i came up north as it goes to south yeah one time from downtown and i'd rid the uh rode my bicycle around there but you get there you go inside and it's like wow it's uh yeah it's different it's different than any i mean even it's different than fenway i like this you know fenway is wonderful but wrig It's different. It's different than any. I mean, even it's different than Fenway. I like this. You know, Fenway is wonderful, but Wrigley is different because it's enveloping this little circular kind of a gig that they got going on there. And it just feels like everybody's on top.

And it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And then you get to interact with the band's band eventually. And it's like, I'm telling you, man, we had a makeup game on a Monday. Monday at 1 o'clock, makeup game, not on the schedule, right? Then we're leaving to go out of town right after that. 1 o'clock, makeup against Cleveland, 40,000 people. That doesn't happen anywhere else.

So to put my time in there five years was absolutely wonderful. And it's, I mean, what's amazing about it when you go to other parks too, is it's integrated into a real living neighborhood. That's correct. And always has been. I mean, it has, it's taken on a bit more of a theme park kind of feel lately,

but it's still such a, there's nothing like it. You know, I mean, Disneyland's fun too. Going to Winkly field is really fun it's a happening it's a fraternity party every night i need that it is and i used to love my fraternity party so i made the dog out and observing all this actually had a restaurant

there right down the left the line for a brief period of time badlands oh yeah it was tremendous polish italian was tremendous uh and then what they did on Park there, that little park area there, I can't remember what they called it. It's wonderful. You still have the pure baseball atmosphere of Wrigley Field. The scoreboard, as they did, I think they did a great job because they're big, but they blended in seamlessly, I think, and it almost looked like they'd been there forever.

So I think that they have, they being the Cubs have done a wonderful job of upgrading that, bringing it up to a 21st century state without really impacting the audience that somebody had maybe felt there 75 years ago. Yeah. Well, let's get, uh, into your, your beginnings. You're from, you're from coal country in Pennsylvania. And I believe both your grandfathers were coal miners? Yeah, they were. And they got out of that, though. I mean... One did, one

stayed. My Polish grandfather passed away from black lung. My mom would talk about him being on his deathbed spitting up black. I mean, he was literally spitting up black out of his lungs. uh apparently he liked to drink a little bit so but they stayed with them they did not back off if you wanted to drink they give uh instead of my clothes like that was my public side my italian grandfather uh carmen he left them and that's where the plumbing control he started a plumbing business he met and started plumbing and eating up on 11th Street. And that's where I grew up.

And that's where my mom lived for like over 50 years. And it's still there. It's right next to the high school. But we had this plumbing business there. That's how you were identified. I was the son of a plumber. And my dad was like known everywhere. My dad was the kindest, justest man in history. I actually got my, yeah.

But over there in my bag, I got his hat. I got his angel's hat in my bag. And it's still viable from World War II. I didn't my, I got over there in my bag, I got his hat. I got his angel's hat in my bag and his steel Bible from World War II. I didn't have that bag right over there. I carry it with me everywhere. So yeah, that was a cold country. I love going back there. That's my dirt. That's where I grew up on that dirt.

I really identify with it. I feel different. When I walk there, I feel differently in a good way. It is different. When I walked there, I feel differently in a good way. It is different. I mean, at that time, it was European immigration. Now it's primarily Latin American immigration and even more primarily from Dominican Republic, which at the time I was growing up, there was zero Latinos in my town. There was one black kid in the whole town.

Otherwise, this is European immigrants. So we're, we, we had many of those. Like Italian and Polish and Sloock german uh jewish section of town irish i mean it was different you were the different churches and the different profial schools indicated what part of time you were in you know not unlike chicago i mean i've always felt like he looked as a microcosm of chicago i think that's part of why i felt so comfortable in chicago look at the faces, talk to the people. The sensibilities were very similar, and I felt really comfortable being in that city with those people.

It's bigger, obviously, but it's a city of neighborhoods. I mean, that's what Chicago is, and you feel like you just get to different neighborhoods. There's different ethnicities in the group, and I felt very much at home there. In some of the reading that I was doing, you grew up and you helped in the plumbing shop. I mean, that's normal family business stuff. Right. But at a certain point, you realized it wasn't for you. No.

And did that happen pretty early on? Oh, yeah. Yeah, my dad was great. My dad would, in the wintertime, he'd hang up a tire in the backyard so he could throw football through it. In the wintertime also, he'd put a basketball hoop downstairs in the shop. It called it the shop where his business was, and we'd shoot basketball. And in the summer, spring, summer, he'd be out every day, play catch with me, and throw me batting practice every day that he could. So the three seasons were basketball, football, and baseball, and he participated with me in all of them.

So that's what we did. That's what we did. That's all I ever did. I did well in school, but all I was about was playing ball. I wanted to be, even back then, I wanted to be a major league baseball player, although my better sport was football, coming from that neck of the woods. But that's what we did. My dad, every day he was available to me. And he had no qualms about you kind of moving on from the family business yeah he was he was all about that he knew he knew joey wasn't into it so he wasn't

gonna give me a hard time my brother mark my brother mark did my brother mark still uh and like this big pump business in st augustine so my brother mark oh my dad and my uncles my dad and my uncles and my brother and my uncles my dad and my uncles and my brother and my cousins they all did that stuff but from a very early age it was obvious that i was not going to be working with my hands yeah yeah i just wasn't i mean another thing and just kind of you know reading the book i haven't read the whole thing but you know attention span is very short so we're all in the same boat man we're all in the same boat um but you know your dad seems like such a kind person and and that he was friendly

and you know and he's described as kind of always having a smile on his face and a cigar hanging out of his mouth and is that do you think that that was like because your your coaching style from where you came up to like the kind of coaching style that you ended up your managing style that you ended up with it wasn't the get out there and play you sons of bitches it was more of an understanding more of a nurturing kind of style and do you think that that came from your dad patience my dad my dad was the most patient man i've ever met i mean i really i got my patience more of a nurturing kind of style. And do you think that that came from your dad? Patience. My dad, my dad was the most patient man I've ever met. I mean,

I really, I got my patience from my dad. My mom's not so much. Beanie was the one that's, Beanie's still with us. Beanie the Pollock. I mean, she was a little bit more pushy on things and more demonstrative.

My dad was much more patient. My dad served in World War II. He was a soldier in Germany. So Michael always felt from everything that my dad had seen in germany during world war ii created this patient outlook that he had once he got back being grateful to be home and i believe that to be true so yeah my dad was very very patient i think i developed that from him i know i did but beyond that the the style um i think we learn both things we learn from the people that we never want to be like we learn from the people that we want to be like yeah and so i you know the coaches that i

wanted to be like coach bob root uh from latvian college wanted to be like coach coach root was like quarterback coach backfield coach again most patient and uh thorough teacher that i wanted to please this man all the time and then it was other coaches that I said to myself, I never want to, I'll never treat my players like that. So I think, and I believe that we learn from both styles and I've taken from both. And you take that,

you combine that. And then of course, who are you? Where do you come from? Your parents, like your aunts and uncles, the city that raised you by, by Hazleton race. It wasn't just, it does take the village i mean i really believe that i think that's part of our concern problem now that the family ties are not as as solid

complete as they hadn't been whereas i listen i got out of the line i got an uncle smacking you know i'm walking down the street and you know a friend of my dad sees you doing something right hey he had full authority you know to make sure that I stopped doing what I was doing wrong. School teachers say things, football coaches, basketball, baseball coaches. I was mentored by so many different people in that small community. I'll argue with anybody that was the best upbringing ever as a young male person at that time to be given that opportunity to grow up. I ride my bike and ride my bike eight miles to play ball.

And I'd go through the strip ends, which is basically strip coal mining. And there was these big nukes with tires. And I don't know, each tire was like, can't be tall. And I'm driving by these on a bicycle over slate and coal going to a ballpark over in Drifton or Shepton or not Shepton Drifton or Freeland to play ball but your parents your dad your mom never was worried about that so there's all this independence that you had to learn to deal with things and god I mean that's that's part of what it's missing right now everybody has everything has to be scripted

you'll have to be watched so closely and listen I it. You see what's going on in the news and it's horrific. But back then, it was a lot more independence to build it up. Well, yeah, the freedom the kids had then. I mean, the freedom that I had as a kid, you know, you'd leave in the morning and come back, you know, for lunch and then go back out again and come back for dinner. out again and come back for dinner you know uh you know my grandma had a bell that she would just ring and you know i'd be somewhere you know somewhere within a half mile and i'd be able to hear that bell and know what time it was and come back home but the to think that i would be able to do that with my kids although you know it's of course los angeles as opposed to yeah there's just no chance to me i really believe you're talking about my style of doing things, my dependent method of doing things.

I think it was nurtured there in a real tough town. Believe me, man, tough town. We were talking coal miners and, you know, it wasn't, it was definitely blue collar. And you had to, you had to. Taverns and churches, I imagine. That's exactly right. And you had to fight a little bit, you know. You know, it went sideways.

Sometimes you just, you just couldn't walk away from it. And all that stuff conspires to make you who you are. Can't you tell my love's a crow? Just from like a, cause I've wondered this myself. I've always thought you just take sort of like hazing as a concept. I've always, any kind of hazing I ever received, I thought, why would I pass that on? But then there's the other thing you can do with hazing is then think, now it's my turn to haze. Now it's my turn to haze.

And I'm wondering, like, do you have any theories as to what, what, why a person would be treated like shit and then take that as inspiration to then treat people like shit when they get the opportunity? Yeah, for me, I can say, and that just makes me more, it's going to die with me because I'm not going to pass that along. Yeah, it's crazy. It happened in baseball. It happened in baseball. And as a young coach getting to the big leagues i i saw it and when you walk on the plane as an example uh i'm getting to the big leagues for the first time i'm not making any extra money i'm not making any money at all as a coach right but you get on the plane and there's a certain standard you're supposed to address it if you don't you know dudes will make fun of you walking on the airplane and that that's just that

would hurt me that i mean to the point where I became a manager, no dress code. And my dress code was, if you think you look hot, wear it. That was my dress code. I did not want to interfere with your, however you perceive yourself to be, which he thought was the right way to do things. Your, your ability to, uh, be independently showing this is what I think this is what I believe. And I never wanted to interfere with that.

So I never, I never did that that i never had a dress code a lot of it was precipitated on that and the other thing was use that make dress codes are probably are horrible dressers primarily because they're trying to get you to dress to their standards yeah and so i i never wanted to do that and so yeah all those things hazing i mean i was at lockheed collins right and our method of aging when i was in a fraternity house, which I think was, oh, this one was okay as an example, something like this. We had to make that human chain line down this huge set of steps down through East and across the bridge to this hot dog stand. And you have to get an order for the hot dogs, for the brothers and the hot dogs got to get back up the steps before they got cold. I mean, something like that. Harmless harmless fun kind of stuff things like that when you when you get to the point where you're starting to take a bite out of somebody's psyche

their confidence yeah and you know some people are able to deal with that and others are not and i don't i'm not going to take a chance that i'm going to mess with somebody that they're not ready or able to deal with their handle where i'm coming from plus i don't like it i just don't like it you you mentioned that you kind of i mean you came from football country yeah um and that that was sort of your primary sport when you were younger and when you started in college in fact you went there as a football player correct what. What, what made you change? Well, I was always motivated by baseball. I knew, I knew my mom, but that could not afford to send me to college.

Yeah. I knew that way back in the day. Right. Dad's a plumber. I know everybody thinks plumbers make a lot of money. Not those plumbers. My dad did a lot of stuff on the barter system. If you've been paying, then maybe you might fix his car.

You might do some carpentry for him. So that was, that was the gig back then. So my, my, my parents were not wealthy at all. So I knew I had to, uh, get a scholarship. So I did really well in school and I did really well in athletics. And so I eventually get to Lafayette college on a, not a football scholarship. So everything was done by financial need, but I could have gone to Penn. I could have gone to Cornell.

I could have gone to Brown. I could have gone other schools. I could have gone to Cornell. I could have gone to Brown. I could have gone other schools. Uh, the high, I mean, a lot of these schools, the really, I could have run into these other places too.

And I chose Lafayette primarily because the coach that recruited me was outstanding. He recruited my family, my mom, everything else. They go down there, but, uh,

I wanted to play baseball. So he, and fortunately Lafayette, believe it or not, had a great baseball program. Coach from gig on at that time who had played for the Cubs, the big leagues briefly. And, uh, and a bunch of these, I mean, the whole infield that I played with them, they're different pro ball and no, none made it to the big leagues, but some got real close.

But the point was Lafayette football. I started as a freshman. I had a great frigging year. I mean, we were six and one only lost directors who had 25 guys on full scholarship. Um, so we beat everybody except them. My last game against, uh, Lehigh, I like four touchdown passes, 14 for 17, 13 in a row. And then I retired after the game because I just wanted to play baseball. I was tired.

Wow. The football mentality. I did not like, uh, I just didn't like the football mentality anymore. And I didn't like get hit all that much either. You know, it started to hurt. So these guys kept getting bigger, but I wanted to play baseball. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to play baseball and that's, that's what drove me.

And then I'm at, I'm at Lafayette the next fall. So I'm going into my sophomore year and I'm supposed to be the starting quarterback at Lafayette the next fall. So I'm going into my sophomore year and I'm supposed to be the starting quarterback at Lafayette varsity. And I'm out there and we're doing, we're doing practice, football practice. Actually, this is my freshman year,

football practice. And while we're doing that, the baseball team is playing fall baseball and across the way in Mexico field, I could hear a crack, crack, crack in the back thinking to myself, wow, I could actually be playing baseball in September and October if I wanted to.

So that really led me to eventually after my freshman year, next year, I go back. I went in this 1060 or 40-yard dash, six-minute mile. I'm almost throwing up. And the next day, I brought up my playbook, gave it to Coach Sarah and Coach Putnam and said, I don't want to do this anymore. Which led my dad not to speak to me for months. How about that? Wow. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. How did the coaches react? Not good. Not good. Coach Sarah came out, he came out of the building in his underwear, trying to talk me back. Is he coming back? Yeah, but I had my Volvo packed in, 66 Volvo, red Volvo.

I'd already packed everything up. It's the middle of August. As you go down there before it still begins, pack it up, and I drive back to Hazleton an hour away, and I pull up. And I'm not supposed to be there. I'm supposed to be at football practice. I have to explain myself to everybody what I'm doing there. So I made that unilateral decision, 19 years old maybe at the time, that I don't want to

do this anymore. And I just sprung it on everybody. I didn't give anybody a heads up i just did it when did you when did you make up your mind when did you i mean it was obviously in your head but was there a point was it just you know were you still playing football like that last game when you had you know through touchdowns were you like i'm not gonna do this is the last one i'm doing or i thought it might be out. Cause I was so, uh, infatuated with baseball because I was able to climb.

I played summer ball. I did really well in summer ball and Scranton. And I went to Boulder, Colorado after that. But I, I, I just wanted to play baseball. Baseball had my heart, you know, football was there to get me to college. Uh, and I, you know, I've been quarterback since I was 10 years old. I didn't call my own place. I didn't create a deal for the game, but

I did not want to do it anymore. But it did what I needed to do. It was the vehicle to get me there. It was the vehicle to get me to play baseball at Lafayette. And I ran into this really good coach who coaches me in a way that I get to go to Boulder, Colorado in 1975 where I get signed to play after the

WNBC championship, National Baseball Congress in Wichita, Kansas. We win a national championship against Anchorage, Alaska, Fairbanks, all these really good teams. And I had a great series, and that's how I got signed. So Lafayette got me there. Football got me there, but eventually turned out to be baseball. When you say football mentality, do you just mean sort of the aggressiveness of it? The meetings, you know,

they sit in a meeting and a lot of it is there's a lot of sayings and slang. I shouldn't even say that because eventually I'm the guy that invented all these t-shirts and developed all these slogans and sayings. There was something about it that it just began to just begin to recall it just began to recall to me i did not believe it anymore i could not follow this this almost former uh religion with football and then again like i said physically man i know it's a small college but they got big my first time coming up to the line of scrimmage at bucknell versus live i looked out over the the

other side of it and these guys had got big fast and look from high school so and that's just even a small college at that time so i wasn't worried i wasn't afraid to get hit that wasn't the point i just i wanted to play baseball that's it and i wanted to play baseball and i i did not want to to do both anymore uh i wanted to focus because you play your practice during football season i could actually be playing baseball in the fall even back there so i did that and eventually worked up i mean one thing i like about one thing that's interesting to me about your story is how many well that there's that there's adjustments that you don't that there isn't that you're not like setting one thing like i'm gonna be a quarterback and then you become a quarterback because you started out even in college as I believe a pitcher and a and a and a and an infielder I don't remember which but and then you end up a catcher and I mean describe like like were you

always kind of open to that kind of I mean going into baseball you know when you say baseball had your heart was it like I can't wait to you know be to be a big hitter or be an infielder or golden glove? Or was it just you wanted to be there somehow? Somehow. I wanted to play baseball. I mean, all winter in the cold weather, I would get my glove out and I would just smell it and I would just throw a ball in my glove. There's snow out there. It's 10 degrees.

You can't go outside so that was part of it but you're right I was I went to Lafayette I wasn't a catcher I only caught like 7 games in Little League Danny Mattresino pitch I caught and vice versa

when I pitched he caught so we're playing Lafayette we come here like right down the street from where I'm at this time in Tampa, right over there. University of Tampa. I played my first college baseball game. Got off the bus. I got 20 some hour bus ride from Lafayette down here. We played our first game at Tampa versus university of Columbia.

And I'm pitching after no sleep whatsoever. Got my ass kicked. Right. So get my ass kicked. And, and we're here for a little bit that we'd never go down to play the Kansas City Royals Baseball Academy in Sarasota. That was a concept back then, a great concept, I believe, where the Royals were signing basically athletic looking players and trying to make them or teach them to be baseball players.

So I pitched there and I pitched really well. I lost, I think, three nothing or something like that in that game. But after the game, the manager, Coach Gigon says, uh, we need catching. Our catcher was not very good at that time. Does anybody, would anybody like to catch? And as a pitcher, I wasn't hitting that time and I wanted to hit. So I raised my hand that I could catch. I caught the next day and I stumped.

I mean, I'm missing balls and umpires getting hit and the other team is laughing at me and they can't throw anybody out, but, uh, he stuck with me and I kept getting better. And eventually that off season that I was down that gym every day, throwing into a lacrosse net in our indoor facility to make sure I got better at it. And eventually that next show I was throwing everybody out and I played way better. And all of a sudden it became interesting as a catcher, but that's how it began. I volunteered and I'm catching the next day and I absolutely was horrible. And, uh, but I did work and I got better at it, but that was it.

I volunteered and, uh, it was scary, but it's what I wanted to do because I wanted to hit also. Were there other catchers that were like, you know, performing a little better than you? What was it about you that made him stick with you? Because I'm an athlete. I was an athlete and he could see it in me. I could hit a little bit too. So he got my bat in the line up there. And, you know, I'm a pretty quick study.

So, you know, when I'm saying I stuck, I couldn't throw any, my feet, my timing, you know, blocking a little bit was off. So you have to get your feet right. By the end of that year, I was doing a lot better with that. But in the beginning I couldn't, I couldn't throw anybody out. Cause my feet were like tangle foot. How do you do this? And when the balls are the dirt, how do you move the block?

I didn't know that. Um, but I did quickly. And, uh, you know, when you're, when you're that young and you really want to do something, you'll figure it out. And my coach, he was good, man. He stayed with me. He gave me opportunity. He worked with me every day.

And so I got through it pretty quick. That kind of nomadic life. And I mean, you're going, you know, and it's not like you're going from sexy place to sexy place. You're going to from like real kind of, you know, dots on the map to dots on the map is that hard to get used to or is it just that the love of baseball so strong that it doesn't matter i loved every second of it i love being on buses i actually um even back at lop yet at an art class they did a like an abstract about um a highway or road perfect you know, the perspective as it fades into the distance with the colorful trees on it. I love the road.

I still love the road. Yeah. I love driving. I just got rid of my RV, the Cousin Eddie, because it just was always in the shop. I had no place to park it, but I love driving. I'm good. When I go from Tampa to Pennsylvania in a couple of weeks, I'm driving up the coast.

Um, yeah, I really enjoy driving and, my van's getting fixed right now. It's 76 Dodge van. Once that's done, I'll be able to drive that stuff. That'll be like my mini van that I could drive around,

but I've always the allure of the road. Where am I going? Uh, there's a room, there's a romantic component to all that, you know, minor leagues. Um, you don't know any better. Those little by saying, or if you're going to Boise, Idaho or Idaho falls or Midland, Texas to Walmart, that's not a fun ride, brother. But I sat in the front, I sat in the front with my pillows and my old, that's that.

And a book, I was a big reader. I read and I front, I sat in the front with my pillows and my old, that's that. And a book, I was a big reader. I read and I read, I read and I read and I'm grateful for the habit of reading. When you, when you start to, when you transfer into coaching, managing, scouting, you have to kind of let go of the idea of yourself as a player. Right. Is that, is that difficult or is it kind of, you're still, because you're still good to be part of it. It was easy for me because everything hurt, you know, I, and just, you know, I've pulled hamstrings constantly.

I hurt my shoulder playing in Boulder one day, just flipping the ball around the hitter on a third strike. It popped for the first time, everything, little nagging things start happening. So once I stopped playing, I was good with that. I never, ever, never had a desire to play again. I was an old baseball player at 26, 27. I was a very young coach and a manager at that same age. So I went from being old and decrepit to a bonus baby kind of a dude.

And went felt swoop just by agreeing to become a manager and a scout and uh that was such a such a wonderful time such a great decision and the people that i worked with had such wonderful mentors and larry hives is the guy that gave me my break larry was the jam of the cubs and the jam of the white socks eventually at one point larry was the guy that taught me how to scout. Larry's the guy that gave me my big break. And Marcel Lasching is the other one. I was taught by the Southern California group of coaches and scouts. And I am biased.

I think there's a fundamentalist method about the way they teach the game with baseball that I'm so appreciative that I learned from these dogs. I mean, fundamentals, ADC, the straightforward, no BS,

man. They tell you straight up. Nobody sugarcoats anything. Boom. This is what's going on. I love it. And that's why you've seen so many players, obviously the weather,

I get it, but there's a method in that area that I like the Long Beach state, that they've still snowman in the, in the dirt bags over there. All, you know, broad day to what you would see, uh,

uh, on your reader on the group that was at Cal state bulletin, all these guys, orange coats, uh, Virginia college. This said, there's a real brotherhood fraternity down there,

a method of teaching the game. I, for sports psychologist, mental skills coach and revisit passed away a method of teaching the game. My first sports psychologist, mental skills coach, Ken Revisa, passed away a couple years ago. Kenny was a professor at Cal State Fullerton. Kenny was so far ahead of his time. Him and Hardy Dorf, and I learned

from these guys. So I have empathy when it comes to those that are struggling maybe with the mental skills or the mental component of the game, but at such great teachers that I'm able to, you know, take what I've heard or learned from these guys and pass it on and incorporate my own thoughts into it. But I'm eternally grateful that I learned my craft as a coach and a scout

in Southern California among those men. They were the best. can't you tell my loves do you just sort of get a sense of the feeling a feeling of somebody's you know their attitude or their carriage all that matters absolutely and you have to be able to conversation maybe find out the attitude maybe talk to coaches maybe teammates on their team there was a kid that i didn't put in for the draft, a pitcher out of Mason Community College, good arm. I didn't put him in for the draft only because pregame, he had never put his hat on. Now that's just screened at him.

Like everybody's out there with their hat on, let's get that good air. He's walking around and he's not putting his hat on. Or if it's after an inning, if you have a bad at bat or, you know, we have a bad inning, I want to see what they look like when they go on the dugout and sit on the bench. I want to see how they react. Because, you know, we have a bad ending. I want to see what they look like when they go on a dugout and sit on the bench. I want to see how they react.

Cause it's, you know, the game is really a lot of bad moments. How do you decipher and control the bad moments and not the good ones? It's easy. Everybody sees you to look good when things are going well. I like the guy that looks good when things are going poorly. And I would always try to try to determine that. And then after that, we'd be talking about what do you look for? Move movement. How does your

body, fluidity about the movement, quickness, life, speed. I mean, you could see speed just based on watching, then you do your stopwatch. That's what we did. And then arm strength was a big part of it. If your arm worked well, loose and limber and smooth and the ball came out hot,

you're going to scout speed and arm from the beginning. That's what we did. Because normally there's the other stuff. If those things, those are hard to teach. It's hard to teach that your arm's going to get better. It's hard to teach that you're going to run better. But you can definitely teach somebody to touch the ball better.

You can definitely teach somebody possibly to hit better. Now, of course, you want all those things in place if you can. But if you can't, you're always evaluating the five tools, which should be throw defense, hit, hit with power and will. Those would be the five things you'd look for with a position player. And then with the pitcher, a little bit different. And again, yes, velocity did matter, but you're looking for a smooth arm stroke. For me, I'd like to see if a guy can really spin the ball,

meaning he had a lot of strength in his forearm and his wrist. How old is he? How big and tall is he going to look? Again, is this a smoothness about him? Is it, they called it maximum effort? Is he real jerky and does he have to grunt

right every time he throws the ball or does he just come out like Jacob deGrom or Zach Wheeler? These guys, to me me that's like they do like this they put a ball in the compare belt and just wait that's that's movement and other guys uh you'll see them uh just bumping right all the time alan roboski you know the old uh left hander for the cardinals as an example so you're looking for body move you're looking fluidity you looking, you want guys to do things easily. You want, it's a tension free game. And if you're playing the game with tension, it's, it becomes

increasingly more difficult. Just like what you do and what I do, even in my dugout, I have to be tension free in my, in my job. Yeah. When you're sitting on, when you're sitting on the couch with, with Conan, is it there's a, it's gotta be tension free and if it is your your mind reacts more quickly and better yeah so that's where you look for that tension free smooth body you didn't get a chance to manage with the angels correct you kind of were with

them for a number of years but you had to leave in order to be was that when you went to tampa yeah i was interim manager for like 60 some games games. I interviewed twice and did not get the job. Soch got it. Mike Soch got it in 2000. And it was the right decision. Bill Stollin made the right decision. Before that, Billy chose Terry Collins over me.

And again, I think it was the right decision. I still didn't have all my act together at that point. I was still learning my ways, my methods. um i i needed more time as a major league coach to really understand because i never played there so i wanted i wanted to really understand how does this work how do i fit in uh how do i react how do i

work with dudes that are making a lot of money guys that have been around veteran players i got i gotta know exactly what i wanted to do and how i wanted to do it so i need it worked fine so i didn't get that opportunity i also interviewed for uh the red socks when t.o frank kona got it terry got it and i also interviewed for the mariners when uh mike hargrove got it and i interviewed for the diving backs when they gave it to wally bachman and then took it away But the one job I had not gotten it would have been the one that, I mean, the race job, the double race. If I had not gotten that one, that would have cut me a little bit because that's the job that was perfect for me. You became sort of a specialist at turning a club around.

Did you have a sense of yourself that that was something that you were able to do? Yes. Or did you just kind of come in? And I find so many different aspects of life, it's problem solving. Yep. But you can't really look at the whole thing. You just kind of take them one at a time, you know, and just kind of, and then you create this kind of chain of, I don't know, you know, success if the decisions are going right.

Did you know, like, did you feel this pressure? Like I got to turn this thing around or were you just kind of like winning one game at a time? Got to go back to the eighties. I used to run the angel minor league system for years on the field. I was the coordinator and I had a, I had carte blanche thing and I created all these different programs. And to not bore you, but briefly bore you but briefly this had a great impact on me 1984 I worked in the instructional league

and I saw this was like a jewel I love the instructional league and I'm out there on occasion I'm throwing batting practice I'm throwing like a nauseam and here comes Gene Locke, Gene's our manager at that time. Gene walks up to me he gives you like one of those and Gene's got perfect hair kind of like mine and he had like he has like all the F's are on everywhere, white shoes, smoking a

schmack, calls me over and says to me, you've created a great atmosphere. And then he walks away. So I go back to the phone. I mean, I might say, what the hell is he talking about? What does he mean? I created, I said, if he's recognizing that now, I want to be able to replicate this in the future. And if I don't take time to think about this, it's just going to be haphazard. It's going to be serendipitous whether it works again or not.

So that one moment, to answer your question, caused me to stop and think, and this is what I concluded. What we had done there, number one, we conversationally little uh in meetings with the players individually talk about their strong points the weak points i got them involved in their own uh conclusions or answers so it started with building relationships and when you do that then we establish trust they trusted me then i i'll always tell them, you have my trust. I have to earn your trust. But after that, big. Now you can exchange ideas.

Because until you get to the point where you have a relationship and I trust, we trust each other, it's hard to exchange ideas. Because everybody wants to be right. Everybody wants to push back if your idea is not being accepted. So the exchange of ideas has to follow those first two. And then eventually, here's the one that makes it all work, is that constructive criticism flows. I mean, at that point, we could be constructively critical of one another because we've accepted, I know you, I like you, I trust you. Yeah, you got some good stuff going on, good ideas.

But now, hey, I disagree with you, man. I don't like that. I think it needs to be this. And now, it's not pushback pushback it's not blowback it's not me trying to be right it's me being a part of this team and i'm giving you my best my best fault right here so yeah every place i went to after that i began with those thoughts that's to me how you build culture and off of that culture it's empowerment and power of my coaching staff is with players, uh, giving them that of the way of them becoming great. Don't think I know everything about how to do this with them. And of course, the younger the player, the more guidance they need, the older the player, maybe the less guidance they need, but they still need input.

you hopefully be an aide, but I never, ever want to get in the way of your greatness by imposing my worries on you, my methods, my thoughts, what I believe the right way to do it. You might be right, and I'm just being stubborn. So all this stuff came out of that one gene coming up to me and telling me that that one day it caused me to think all these different things that i intentionally worked from when i went to the raves and i intentionally worked with the tubs and i intentionally worked again when i went back to the angels before i was let go and it was starting to turn then all of a sudden i was just let go very abruptly but those are my thoughts and i think

that those are my thoughts now whatever your thoughts are if you're going to establish you're going to go in and try to do a turnaround. Uh, you need to know what you believe in and then you need, and you need to stick to that. And you need, you need to end strong. Sometimes people are not going to like it. People are just going to be contrarians to you just because they want to be there. Just want to mess with you. So you got to know, you got to know what you believe in.

And then, and then you get to buy it. And then all of a sudden magic happens. uh what about outside of baseball what what are you looking forward to you know uh you know when you're in the coming days of your life do you have do you have any kind of like 10-year plan anything like that well um i'd like to break 80 on a consistent basis that would be like that'd be my number one. I can't even be glad. Uh, number two is just to, um, to really enjoy the day, stay in the present tense and be ready for what comes next without trying.

You know what I mean? Is that difficult for you? Nope. Not at all. No, not at all. I'm really good at, um, like this morning I got up a little bit early, so I spent about half hour just meditating before I got up. No. Not at all. I'm really good at, like this morning, I got up a little bit early, so I spent about half hour just meditating before I got up. Yeah.

What I meditate on. Everybody should, when it comes to meditation, to me, everybody should have their own little cocktail and I have my own. Yeah. And when I do that, the rest of the day, it's just easier. It just seems to be easier. So I'll be, I'm 69, I'll be 70 next February, believe it or not. So I'll be, I'm 69, I'll be 70 next February, believe it or not.

So for me, if I could, but the line is, if you take care of the seconds, the minute, the minutes, the hours, and the days will take care of themselves. So I believe if I could focus in right here, right now, and sometimes it gets ratty, sometimes it gets hairy, and other times it just flows just flows like a beautiful river, right? But if you could approach both the chaos or the serenity in the same manner, eventually what's supposed to work out is going to. And that's where I come from. Yeah, I mean, you have such a great way of creating axioms or mottos or something. Is there kind of like a a prime one is there a is there a main directive that you follow of all you know your your different kind of ones yeah there's a many of which one of which you go into in the book of joe i mean that chapter headings are pretty much you know different sort of you know there's all I can say axioms, mottos.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I've been doing that ever since the eighties. I mean, I started in the eighties where everyday counts, cause I wanted to really have my coaching staff understand that redundancy is a big part of what we do. So understand you're going to have to do that. You have to repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, because that light bulb goes, that light bulb

bulb would just happen. You never know when it's going to happen. So every day counts. Don't let up because, oh, he doesn't listen or he doesn't retain well, or he doesn't care. You know, you can't, you got to get beyond that. You got to approach it with the same zest for zeal every day as a teacher, because you don't know when that moment's going to arrive when the aha moment occurs uh for me i mean like you said the the book there was two premises compare and contrast managing in the 1980s the present day and the other one was to take these

axioms uh slangs whatever these uh sayings and um create kind of a leadership look out of it also. And I've had great, great feedback from those that really, I mean, even to one person, such as if you taught an MBA class, which, wow, I'll take that, you know? Yeah. That was actually somebody out of NYU. So I'll take that. The one, I guess that probably, you know, try not to suck is always going to be one of my favorites, even on the book. But, but, but do you never permit the pressure to exceed the pleasure think about it we we've

always wanted to do something since we since i was six i wanted to be a major league baseball player we all we we work we work we work to a certain goal and we finally get there and so people actually hate what they eventually end up doing because they feel pressure to me if you hear the word pressure or expectation you're absolutely on the right track and run toward it never run away from it baseball if there's pressure and expectation attached to wherever you're at you're in the right spot and if those words are not attached go somewhere else so never permit the pressure to exceed the pleasure of the moment or the situation that that was chris bryant kb loved that when i brought that up kb he loved that that's something that i worked on with kenny ravisa my buddy that i told you is the sports psychologist kenny and i i think that

that pretty much you know there's there's a Zen component to that, but there's also, again, you work so hard, and then you're going to, again, run away from this thing because we're all afraid. We're all afraid of something. We have this natural fear that we can't even defy. Why is it there? Where does it come from? What does it need? Why does it hold its path? Feel the fear and do it anyway.

That's another good one, but that was a book that i read years ago um but it's true we all we hit this we hit this wall of fear and we don't even know why and that's where this pressure and expectation gets in the way of us fulfilling our dreams and um for me you just gotta bang that bang that door down, bang it down. Yeah. It's interesting to me because don't let the pressure exceed the pleasure. But then you didn't then talk about here's how you can get the pleasure out of it. You said head straight into the pressure. If there's pressure, you got to stick with the pressure. And I think that's interesting because you're saying stick with the pressure and i just i think that's interesting because you know that you're you're saying stick with the thing that you want to keep as a minimal as opposed to the thing that exceeds it you know i guess that's probably that's your inspiration

pleasure you're gonna find you know and it's you know and if you find it while you're while you're heading into that pressure then yeah then it's even's even sweeter. That's where it's located. It's located there. So, uh, to me, damn, if I walk out of the dugout in the seventh game of the world series, brother, I am Jack. I am so Jack. I'm not afraid. I'm, I'm Jack.

Yeah. You know, you're so excited. Um, you know, I've, I've been in, I've been in game seven. I've been a wild card elimination games as a manager. I've been in all-s. I've been in wildcard elimination games. As a manager, I've been in all-star games at Calhoun that we had to win. Won one in St. Louis, lost one in Miami.

I think that counted in Miami too. I think that still counted. But man, that brings out the best in you. That's when your mind is alive. That's when you should be doing your best work. I think. If you're truly prepared. Again, that's another thing. If you kind fully prepared. I mean, again, that's another thing.

If you like, you'd like kind of skate it to get where you're at. You don't really have a basis or. Yeah, I get it. I get it. But if you have a solid base and you, and you really believe in what you're saying, you know what you're talking about, go for it. And you know what? If it doesn't work, the other team's a bunch of professionals too.

They have every right to beat you. They're pros. They're not a bunch of rummies. So that's always cracks me up too. When, when eventually something doesn't work out, it's like you made a mistake. Time out. Those guys get paid too. Those guys are good.

It didn't work out. There's a lot of times, um, I'll say it, uh, you make a decision. It's not that it was wrong. It just didn't work out because the other teams paid to not make it work out and there's a lot of times um i'll say it uh you make a decision it's not that it was wrong it just didn't work out because the other teams paid to not make it work out it's just just to be aware of that too and i am but that gets that gets lost sometimes and uh but yeah i i totally love the concept this is going to be hairy man this is going to be hairy and damn that wakes you up that wakes you up. That wakes you up.

Well, Joe, thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to me. The book of Joe, Trying Not to Suck at Baseball and Life. It's really a fun read. And just to sort of see your story, but then also there's a lot of stuff to think about. You really do kind of give the reader a lot to chew on. So thank you for that. And good luck. I mean, when June or July rolls around, I can't wait to figure out what you decide to do. Well, I'm looking forward to hanging out with you at some point.

I owe you a drink somewhere, man. I'd like to be able to do that. Oh, I'll take you up on that. I'm probably going to be in Chicago at some point this summer. I don't even know if you're out in LA, but listen, I appreciate this. I've been a big fan for a while. I love your work. I think you're brilliant at what you do.

And I was really looking forward to having a chance to visit with you. I mean that sincerely. Thank you. Thank you so much, Joe. Appreciate it. And thank all of you out there for listening. I'll be back next week with another one of these. Bye-bye.

The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a Team Coco production. It is produced by Sean Daugherty and engineered by Rich Garcia. Additional engineering support by Eduardo Perez and Joanna Samuel. Executive produced by Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, with assistance from Maddy Ogden. Research by Alyssa Grahl. And do you have a favorite question you always like to ask people? Let us know in the review section. Can't you tell my love's a-growing? Can't you feel it ain't a-showing? Oh, you must be a-knowing. I've got a big, big love.

This has been a Team Coco production.