The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Sean Wang

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

Academy Award-nominated filmmaker Sean Wang discusses his feature directorial debut, "Dìdi," turning 30, winning the U.S. Dramatic Audience Award at the Sundance Film Festival, the challenge of capturing AIM chatrooms in a film, why Andy gets stressed out by coming-of-age movies, googling “how to kiss,” and much more. Do you want to talk to Andy live on SiriusXM’s Conan O’Brien Radio? Leave a voicemail at 855-266-2604 or fill out our Google Form at BIT.LY/CALLANDYRICHTER. Listen to "The Andy Richter Call-In Show" every Wednesday at 1pm Pacific on SiriusXM's Conan O'Brien Channel.

Hey everybody, welcome back to The Three Questions. I'm your host Andy Richter, and this week I'm here with the filmmaker Sean Wong. Sean Wong is an Academy Award nominated filmmaker and he just turned 30! That's not fair! His feature length directorial debut, which is fantastic, I loved it. It's called Deedee, it's in limited theaters, and it's available to rent now. Before we get into my conversation with Sean, I just want to say that we've had really, really fun guests on the Anne Director Collins show recently, including Ron Funches, Tim Heidecker, Sonam Avsesian. Give us a call and join the conversation. That's Wednesdays on SiriusXM. Now, here's my conversation with Sean Wong. ["Can't You Tell My Love Is A Roller Coaster"]

Podcasting, the thing that's saving the world. Um, hi Sean, how are you? I'm great Andy, thanks for having me. I'm happy to have you. It's weird, I've seen you on YouTube and on TV for years and years and years of my life, so this is nice to see you in a great booth. Yes, I'm in the Conan Studios. By the way, for people out there, I mean, you already know,

I already do an intro on this, but I'm talking to Sean Wong, the director of Dee Dee, currently. That's what you're out pushing now, but you've directed other things. A few other things. I mean, Dee Dee is definitely the, I guess, the big one right now. I got to see it last night. It's really a beautiful movie. I mean, I didn't expect anything other than that because it's been so well received. Thanks, Andy. Yeah, I mean, definitely like it's been so crazy and surreal and the fact that, you know,

like you've seen it and we've had a pretty incredible journey with it since Sundance, so like eight months ago since January. But that in and of itself was kind of a dream come true for a filmmaker. It's kind of a dream and everything that has happened afterwards has kind of just been like a pretty incredible cherry on top. I can appreciate the feeling of like, holy shit, people are seeing this thing that I worked on that I worked on that I intended for everyone to see, but they are actually seeing it and wow, you know,

because I that's, I mean, I still sort of that can come up where I'm like surprised that somebody knows who I am or somebody, you know, is aware of something and but certainly like in the early days of being on television when, you know, like Mary Tyler Moore, like I, she knew who I was and I was like, that's not fucking right. Yeah. How do you, how do you process it? You know, like I, it is what you said where it's like, I hope people see it and I hope that, you know, the movie makes a splash. Then it does. And people know about the movie who like are not one degree of separation away from me. And I'm just kind of like, how do you know about the movie?

And they're like, it's like a movie. It's got posters in movie theaters and AMCs. And I'm like, yeah, that's great. So it's a very out of body experience. I mean, like I say, you do get used to it, but I also sort of, I hope for you that you don't get too used to it because you don't want to be blase about stuff. Yeah. Do I feel jaded to you?

Not at all. In the 10 minutes that you've. Not at all. Well, like I said, the movie is, because I saw the movie before I read, they put together a little research thing about you. A cheat sheet. Yeah. It was not a surprise to be like,

he was a skater who started filming skating, and has an older sister. I was like, yeah, I can see that this, I would have had a hunch that this movie is pretty autobiographical because it's so well observed. And how much of it do you feel like I'm making a movie about me and then how much of a separation could you have from it?

That's a good question. You know, I think it hasn't really been framed like that to me before, but how much would you have been thrown off if you read the thing they sent you and it was like, Sean grew up a gymnast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like so. Sean is a Polish-American.

Exactly, yeah. No, but I think like, you know, one thing I really love about movies is when I know I can tell that the filmmakers have, you know, they know the worlds that they're, you know, dropping their audience into. And I think for a movie like ours, I think the, you know, God is in the details or devil is in the details. And I think when I think about, you know, the, the tracings of me and the tracings of

like Chris, the character, I think one thing I love about, you know, the tracings of me and the tracings of like Chris the character I think one thing I love about you know I think if we did a good job I'd like to think our movie is inspired by you know like the other types of movies of this ilk that are inspired by the filmmakers lives you know I think of like 400 blows and the farewell and Minari and you know I think and beginners and 20th century woman I think all of those movies I think I as an audience member when I watch those I like the feeling of like seeing oh When does the life of the filmmaker end and when does the movie begin? You know like they kind of blur together for me and I like that feeling and so I think for me personally

I wasn't really ever interested in just making like this sort of memoir Autobiography type of movie it just sort of felt like what was personal to me. And I say that in terms of, you know, the skating, the sort of like warp tour, emo, pop punk culture, that all the things that influenced me as like just a person growing up, but also, you know, the sort of growing up in the Bay area in a community, uh, like a very deeply rooted immigrant community and growing up a lot around a lot of Asian American kids, but also kids of all different backgrounds in a time, which was the late 2000s, which I sort of like to describe as like the pre technology technology era,

that sort of aim, my space, Facebook, uh, in that time period, you know, in our movie 2008, I had just never seen that depicted in a movie, in like a, you know, coming of age movie. I'm air quoting that. But so it just kind of felt like what was personal and autobiographical was also a way into something that felt unique and fresh. And so it started as, okay, well, let's see what's there that's like real and lived in. But then once you start writing, it just kind of becomes its own thing. You know, Chris is definitely, like, the surface level stuff of Chris is definitely, you know, me, like I am a skater, was a skater. That's how I got into photography and filmmaking and all that kind of stuff.

But I think the personality of all the characters, they kind of just become their own thing once you start writing. Yeah. I have so many questions stacked up. But I'll start with, and it because I really appreciated it and it's not something that you see very often, but you mentioned like that growing up in Fremont, like how many different kinds of immigrant, you know, kids of immigrants or immigrant kids and, and and it's like it's a

Diversity that like every LA public or private school would kill for just to put in their brochure You know, I mean and it's really something it's really and I mean it's it makes me think like what an interesting unique way To grow up. I think I mean outside of I don't know, you know One of the New York City boroughs, you know, it's like it's really to have that many different kinds of kids is really something. And I'm wondering, like, were you aware of that growing up? Like how kind of unique that was?

Definitely not, you know, I think part of the movie and the experience of like looking at the movie was that I think for everybody, like you don't know the context of your upbringing until you see it, right? And you kind of experience other things. And I definitely didn't realize how special and unique it was to grow up around or within such a multicultural community. And it was like, when I left home, I went to school in LA and I moved to New York City, which are these sort of like big metropolitan places.

And people like to be like, oh, LA is so diverse and New York City is so diverse. But I was like, I feel like I grew up around a lot of different cultures. Like my hometown was a lot more diverse than a lot of these big cities. And I think when I thought about my upbringing after I left, it was kind of like, oh, all of those different, you know, all these different... Because my friend group also was like incredibly diverse, but we weren't sitting around talking about like diversity or identity. I'm Pakistani.

Yeah, exactly. But I do think just being surrounded by a lot of different cultures forced me to understand the nuance of culture in a way that wasn't like highbrow educational like this is the difference between being Korean and being German. You know, it was just like I went to my friend's house and his mom would cook us a Korean meal or like I had a lot of South Asian friends and if I called a Pakistani kid Indian they would be like, you know, you'd get clowned for, they'd be like, I'm not Indian, I'm Pakistani. And like, you would just kind of learn from a very like adolescent perspective,

which is a kind of irreverent and stupid and immature. But I think you just sort of learn, yeah, the differences in what makes each culture unique and different and the histories in a way that again, just feels lived in and part of your upbringing. And I think that's kind of what I wanted to do with the movie, which was, you know, again, like the kids in the movie aren't sitting around talking about their, their race or their identity or like how interesting and different it is to like grow up in a deeply rooted immigrant community. They're just living their lives. They're at, they're just 13 year olds. But, um, but you know, like something that I realized was like unique and

like it's little things like I remember me and my friends would be like, Oh, remember when we were young and people would be like, Oh, you're the coolest Asian I know, like people would say that to, you know, each of us in different groups and I was like, Oh, well, you don't really hear that if you're the only Asian, right? And so it was kind of like, what are the things that are unique and specific to this community that we can write hyper specifically to, uh, without making the movie like this capital I identity movie, um, like write hyper specifically to their cultural backgrounds and let that inform the

characters, but not let it really drive the plot. Yeah. No, it was, I mean, it was one of many things in the movie that I really appreciated just because it was like a little different. You know, just like one of the, like one of the things that I absolutely loved was like the older skater boys that he kind of falls in with, that his sister is worried about, they turn out to be like really nice, kind, considerate, appreciative, you know,

like aesthetically aware boys. And I just, that's, you know, like what movie, there's just not a lot of movies. It's like young boy searching for himself, falls in with group of older kids. Oh, they're really nice. You know, it's like they take care of him mostly, you know, until he fucks it up. Uh, it's, I mean, I just, I'm, I'm, it's, I'm such a fan of that because I just

get so tired of things, you know, because you make a, you know, a coming of age movie. Like you said, that could be the 400 blows or it could be, you know, he's the, you know, the one where like the girl goes undercover as a guy, you know, they, it could be like Porky's. She's the man. Yeah, she's the man or Porky's.

Is that a coming of age? Sure, you know, I mean, sort of, you know, but it's a coming of age is a, can be formulaic. And there is a formula to it because, you know, you take a kid, they're confronted by the growth that, you know, the painful growth spurt of their brain and their heart. And, you know, it's just the execution of it. And you've done such a good job of it. Thanks, Santi. Was your dad not present in the way that the character, Chris's dad was not present?

I think the thing that I was pulling from with that was my dad worked a lot when I was a kid and so, and still does, but he wasn't like rooted in Taiwan, but he went on a lot of business trips. And I think the thing that I was trying to communicate mostly with that was that because he worked a lot and was providing for the family in a different way, my mom was definitely the one to bear the grunt of like my teenage angst and my sister's teenage angst and saw that and was forced to deal with that up close in the way that the movie was. But no, my dad wasn't like stationed in Taiwan, you know, but it was definitely like the creative challenge

of, okay well we thought about that character as like a phantom, you know, it's like how do you establish his presence through his absence? And that was kind of the thing that I was drawing from. I read too that like in order to make this movie, you needed to have sort of like preemptive conversations with family members because, you know, there would be some peril.

Like I just read that you like, you had to have some tough conversations with your mom before you made this movie because you knew she'd be seeing seeing the movie and and maybe have some questions about the mom yeah it wasn't it wasn't you know I think the way that that's framed it was sort of like what's I need to have these conversations out of fear of what how she was going to be portrayed. But it was actually these conversations I wanted to have and needed to have as just like a kid growing up, right? Like the movie kind of lived with me throughout my 20s. And I started writing it when I was like 22 or 23.

And I'm 29 now, I turned 30 in a week. And so I think a lot of, you know, kids, they are just people, they grow up and they start to see their parents as, you know, humans. They start to see their mom and dad as people who not just as not just their mom and dad as not providers. And I think for me, I sort of, you know, my parents immigrated to America when they were 26. And so I sort of had that perspective and I was sort of starting to confront it as I was making this movie. And over the course of writing this movie, it became much more of a mother-son story. And I think I realized that, you know, maybe like halfway through writing it, so I was maybe like 24, 25, and I was still, you know, working on it.

And I kind of realized that that, that closing the gap of mother, son, mother, child, you know, sibling, sister, brother, all those relationships in my life were starting to kind of get smaller and smaller. And my mom was kind of the first person to take that step of like, you know, there's a lot of things of your upbringing I'd like to kind of talk to you about and be vulnerable with you. And essentially that conversation, right, of like, what was your life like before you were my mom? And I think it was kind of then my responsibility to kind of meet her there. And so I think that was that was the conversation of like, okay, I think I'm ready to have that chat.

Like, let's talk about it. And I had to kind of overcome that, that sort of like, ooh, like seeing her on like a human to human level as opposed to you're my mom, I'm your son. And so like over the course of writing the script, I showed her a draft of it and she was like, oh, I see what you're trying to do here. Um, I have some stories that I like to share

with you if you want to hear it, that I think would make the character a lot richer. And I interviewed her about just like, you know, what was your first day like in America? What, how did you feel when you were pregnant with my sister? You know, cause she was, you know, still in, in grad school. So all those kind of conversations. But it wasn't out of a fear of like, how am I going to portray you? It was more out of, it was out of love. It was out of like growth. But yeah, she made the movie like a lot better.

Thanks, mom. Yeah, thanks mom. We gave her an associate producer credit just because she was like so involved. ["Fantom"] Can't you tell my love's a grown-up? How did your dad feel of being, you know, sort of like you said, a phantom? I mean, I think, you know, the movie doesn't shy away from, I think we've all had a lot of growth

since that time in our lives. And so I think it's, but it's a movie, you know, there's some, there's some reflections of things that, you know, I was obviously writing about, but like, there was, there's growth that has happened since then. So I think we're all able to kind of look at those previous versions of us and see, see how much we've had to grow as a culture, you know, the culture that's reflected in the movie, but also as like individuals and as family members. Does he expect the next movie to be about him? It's funny because I've made a lot of movies inspired by like my family for some like

I made a short about my grandma's. Obviously, this one's kind of dedicated to my mom. I said, so maybe one day we'll get there, yeah, yeah. I wonder about, because one thing that really struck me about the movie, because I also too, I have to tell you that coming of age movies, especially when they're good and they're well-observed, are stressful for me because it's kind of like, it isn't a pleasurable thing to go back to such a fraught time, to such a difficult time.

And I have older, you know, I have, I have kids, you know, ranging in age, but I have had 13 year olds, you know, 12, 14 year olds a boy and a girl and I just and I so I got to kind of go through it again with them But they're just I was just struck by like there's so much Not saying you know, like it's just like you want to just yell at everybody just talk Like between the between Chris and and Vivian it's like the brother and sister are like, just talk, just say that, you know, stop stealing her clothes and tell her that you're going to miss her.

And I'm wondering is that, is there a cultural aspect to that? To like kind of so many things happening that are left unsaid. I'm sure there are, but also like how old are your kids now? My son is 23 and my daughter's 18, but I have a four year old too.

I have a second wave of children. A second wave, and I'll circle back to your question, but I'm curious, when you watched the movie, did you see it through the lens of your own childhood or did you see it more through like when you were a dad and your kids were that age? You know what I mean? Yeah, sure.

No, I know exactly what you mean. A combination of both, my memory of childhood is not so great. So like, I don't know that I would be a very good like creator of a coming of age story because I just, it was also just like, it's, it's a, as I say, it's a coping mechanism because there was a lot of dysfunction and I've dealt with a lot of like, just depression and mood disorder, shit throughout my life. And I think that my brain in many ways,

kind of just was like, let's just get through this until we get to the point where we're just was like, let's just get through this until we get to the point where we're out of this and have a little more control over what's going on in life. So it is hard to remember. And I mean, it just, but you know, like, cause like the things about like, yeah, how do you kiss somebody? You know, remembering like the anxiety of, of that kind of thing thing and like, oh, it does, you know, I haven't thought about it in years, but it's like, yeah, that's the worst thing in the world. Like it's the most terrifying thing in the world. And then, you know, you grow up and it's like, well, you know, you're not worried about how you kiss somebody anymore. And you're not searching it up. I'm not doing Google searches.

No, I'm not. I'm not doing Google searches. Um, but then also too, like from having kids, I did kind of, you know, from being a parent, I did, I was able to kind of watch the movie through both lenses and kind of able to appreciate how the children don't like children considering their parents. Like that's really asking a lot. You know, your children, I have, like, I've always said, people would compliment my children about their politeness and thoughtfulness. And I would think, I don't see that. Like, I certainly don't see that side of them. You're like, that's not how I read. Yeah.

Well, no, but I mean, but they don't, they're not that way with me because they don't have to be and, or they don't, they feel like they don't have to be. And, and I'm always like, that's fine. As long as they're that way out in the world. And so I can see the way that Chris kind of ignores his mother and doesn't know his mother and sort of in many ways is kind of shitty to his mother. I can understand that from her perspective of, hey kid, come on, have a little sympathy or open your eyes, but also kind of like, well, yeah, that's how it, you know, like she has such a beautiful speech near the end of like, yeah, you know, you feel like you're an absolute mess and that you're, you know, you feel like you're an absolute mess

and that you're, you know, you feel like you don't have friends, but I'm very proud of you, I love you, and I want you, you know, you're exactly right. You're perfect as you are, you know? Yeah. Well, that should have been the monologue. You just did it.

You just nailed it. Yes, yes, too, it's too hard. Yeah, no, well, I think like that, that ties back to your original question of like that feeling of being an absolute mess and just like being stupid and like you think the world is coming down on you. I think every kid feels like that when they're kind of going through puberty or going through that sort of like, you know, coming of age at that particular moment in their life. But I think the

the cultural aspect, I think hopefully it's just felt and not like commented on in our movie, because again, like I think when I was that age, and even now I don't wake up every day thinking like I'm Asian American, you know, it's just kind of like I grew up, right? I'm just like a kid. But I do think the cultural elements that I was interested in exploring is that I think every kid with their parent is like, you know, every kid is like embarrassed of their parents at that age. It's kind of like, oh, like, mom, leave me alone. But I do think the way I saw it was that every relationship and friendship and Chris's life in the movie is like, is conditional.

It's conditional to him being like a version of himself that he thinks he needs to be in order to be accepted in these like different groups in his life. And the only one in the movie that is like unconditional is the one between him and his mom. That's the one that lasts throughout the entire movie. But because that love is unconditional and I think Chris baby knows it, he's like the worst version of himself. He is like a shitty kid to his mom. And I do think the like, the conflict between the two of them, I think it is like, hopefully any kid can relate. It's, it's, it's just like, okay, mom, like, leave me alone, give me my independence, like, let me figure things out for myself. But also it is cultural. I think like, there is this sort of cultural gap and cultural misunderstanding between the two of them. That is

just one generational, you know, like a generational misunderstanding, but then too, like a cultural understanding. I think every time, uh, his mom tries to give him something that she thinks he needs, it's the, it's not something he actually wants. And so there's always this sort of like, anytime she reaches out to give her kids what she thinks they need to be a better human in this world, it creates like a bigger separation between the two of them. Because there's just like that sort of immigrant chasm and like the sort of the language of how to like what they need and what they want is so different. And I think that to me is like the cultural cultural element that I think helps that kind of drives them apart. And I think that's what the ending to me of the movie is too, is that, you know, it's not like a neat bow, but it's like, oh, for the first

time he's trying to reciprocate the sort of like attention and love that his mom is giving to him without, you know, without it hopefully feeling like hokey. And really seeing her. Yeah. Like, you know, it's such a beautiful final sequence. Um, and cause there are aspects of the movie that like I've seen in other in other works of Asian fiction of the mother-in-law being really tough on on the daughter-in-law. And is that is that a thing in Taiwanese households too?

I mean I can't speak on every Taiwanese household, but you know, it's definitely like dramatized and maybe like, yeah, I've seen it in other works of, you know, Asian fiction. Yeah. But yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't know if I have a good answer to that. Yeah. I think it is again, like, did it reflect, did it reflect your experience in a way? I mean, to a certain degree, right?

I think, again, it went back to that generational kind of, like the generational misunderstanding that Chung Sing, Chris's mom has with Chris, is like amplified because there's another generation living under the same household. And I think that to me was just like, oh, that's like ripe for, like as a writer, I was like, if there's three generations under one house, like, and they all are talking past one another. And I think that's what the opening dinner scene is to me, where it's like three generations of family members

who can't get on the same wavelength because of the different ways and the different generations. They're all kind of monologuing in a way, yeah. Yeah, yeah, they're all talking past one another. can't get on the same wavelength because of the different ways and the different generations. They're all kind of monologuing in a way. Yeah. Yeah. They're all talking past one another. Yeah.

And so that to me is kind of like, obviously there are the things you draw from just like a personal level, but there's also like going way back to your original question of like, how do we serve the themes of the story? And like sometimes like what plays into just like screenwriting 101, right? Like conflict. It's like, okay, well, there's three generations under one house. Like that's just ripe for conflict. But then like to your point also, like how do you subvert that a little bit?

And I think it goes back to like the older skater kids. I think you look at other pieces of fiction of this kind and it's like, oh, they're probably like he's drug at old, like, you know, whatever. And it's like oh they're probably like he's drug at old like yeah whatever and it's like i don't know man like i grew up with a bunch of skaters who are older than me and they were like the nicest people like yeah so nice i remember there was this one kid who i hung out with a lot who's i don't know if he was older than me but he like didn't curse at all and he was like this like incredible skater and he was like you you like what the frick and he just would never curse and I just remember being like all these skater kids I grew up with are

So nice and friendly and like yeah such good influences and every time you see skaters and like popular Media and just they're all like such dickheads Yeah, I'm like, okay. Well that is probably also, you know, I think when you watch this movie, you're like, okay, the conflict is that they're going to turn him into some like drug lord and make him some like crazy fuckhead, whatever. And then they're not his sister. His sister is even like, that's her inclination too. Exactly.

Exactly. So there's stuff, there's stuff like that where it's like, you think, you know, where the conflict is headed and you think like these kids are a bad influence and like, hopefully we support that a little bit and you realize, oh, his, the antagonist there is actually just himself, but he fucks it up for himself. And then the kids are like, dude, be nice to your mom. What the hell? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. She's a good painter. You know, yeah, yeah, exactly. She's a good painter. Yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah. Can't you tell my love's a crow? I mean, there's a big subversion in the way this movie, you know, in talking about formulas

and coming of age movies. And there's a big subversion in this movie where a thing that I always see in a lot of, a lot of coming of age movies meant, especially for teen audiences, is that where sometimes it rings a little false is like the fucking world is just so against the kid. You know, like, and I, and there's times when

I'm watching it, especially when I would watch it with my teenage children, and I would think, well, this is a kid, this is a fantasy that's from a kid's perspective, and it's not meant to be, you know, documentary, it's, it's meant to be, this is what it feels like, like this is like, it feels like, And in this story, as you go through it, it's like he's kind of against the world. Like it's kind of like all of the mistakes and not all of the mistakes, but many of the mistakes and many of the sort of missteps or even like small cruelties are done by our hero. And, and I was there a conscious, like, were you consciously aware of that? Like, I'm going to really kind of give this kid some warts and, and, you know,

and that's because that's, it was just very refreshing. It doesn't, it doesn't make it warm and fuzzy, you know, but it just does, but it does make it like refreshingly real. Oh, thanks, Andy. Yeah, well, I do think it is like, part of it is, you know, knowing again the genre that we were playing in and knowing that like, this movie is inherently going to be nostalgic. We're setting it in the late 2000s. We're bringing the internet of that all that time. And I think the thing with nostalgia is like, nostalgia is a comforting feeling, right? And I think that was the thing that we,

I knew that was going to kind of be like a, a bit of a Trojan horse, you know, like, okay, we're gonna like the first time we cut to like a, a computer screen, I know people are gonna be like, oh my God, like I haven't seen that Windows XP in a long time. And I know that, you know, again, like it's kind of this tool that I knew that we would have that's sort of disarming the audience and then the rest of it a little bit.

And I knew I wanted to go to a place with this movie that was again, like not ignoring the toxicity of the culture and like the loneliness of boyhood and like getting to a place that was like you said like real and and not just looking at this time period with rose-colored glasses like it's not nostalgic for Chris the character like he doesn't know like that he's in a movie looking back at this time and so I think that he's in a movie looking back at this time. And so I think it's that it was like, okay, then it kind of becomes like screenwriting 101 a little bit. It's like I think our movie as slice of life as it is,

like there is structure and there is like, OK, page 90 rock bottom. Like, and it was kind of like, OK, where is this movie headed? And if we're going to kind of like. Sorry, my brain's all over the place, but I think to me, like once I realized like, okay, the movie to me is like sort of, it's about a lot of things. But I think the big themes of the movie are like how this kid deals with like the different forms of shame in his life. And like, I remember having a meeting with this creative mentor of mine with the script. And it was like the difference between embarrassment and shame. And so for, and like we talked a little bit about like how does embarrassment then manifest itself into shame,

which is like a little more deeply rooted. And then how does shame then kind of become again like loneliness or anger or fear or insecurity. And so it was sort of like, okay, well then let's just continue twisting the knife on this kid. And like, anytime we think he's going to get a win, let's just like bring him more and more and more into like he's like the worst, he's like his own worst enemy. And then, and then it kind of like from a storytelling perspective it makes sense that you know when he's talking to that you know bot and he's just like I have no friends he's like well you brought that upon yourself dude yeah yeah yeah like you made it to where you can only talk to a bot exactly exactly and so part of it again it's like I think you know again we're we're

we're writing the story in a way where, yeah, like, you know, he's not getting any wins, but I do think part of that is, you know, you're, a lot of teenagers just implode their own worlds. Like, let me try and be cool and say something. And then you are like, what did you just say? Were there, I mean, throughout this, you know, the different steps, was there a conscious decision in your brain for like inversions from what you expect, like the, you know, the girl Maddie in the movie, like their final scene, like he goes to her to, and he sort of apologizes and in a normal, you know, again, in a normal, there would

have been sort of like, you want to hang out and like, we'll see, you know, there'd be kind of like, you don't get that here. And is that, is that a conscious thing where it's like, because as an audience you want, you know, you're an audience, you know what it's like when you go to a movie and you're like, I want them to be nice to each other. You know, and, but you don't give us that. And is it on, like, are you doing that on purpose? Yeah, definitely.

You know, I think, again, I think it also just goes back to tone, right? Like I think, and this is my own, you know, maybe like director brain talking, I don't know how people are perceiving our movie, but like, I didn't want the movie to play like a, like a, like a young adult novel type of movie. It was like, let's really try to make this feel for lack of a better word, like documentary esque and try and have it feel like real life where real life doesn't

always give you the easy outs. And, and that's not to say that there were early drafts of the script that, you know, ended that way. And it was kind of like, you know, you get that part out of your system. The one that feels like movies that maybe it wants to give Chris a win before we end, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

And then, and that was maybe the beauty of this movie too was getting to live with it for so long, where I did write a lot of the scenes that maybe fed into that version of the story more. How long was it from the first draft to release of the movie? I think like six, seven years. Oh, okay.

Yeah, and so I was, so there were definitely, early versions of the script definitely played, I mean, I love the movie super bad, but like they was, you know, a little bit more of that irreverent humor, which is still there, but there was like, it was maybe more, a little bit more super bad coded and like had scenes where, like, for example, the, the scene of him and Maddie at the playground, I think there was like an early, early, early version of that scene where it ended in like a funny moment instead of like, you know, where it's like, maybe he tries to kiss her and like accidentally like, you know, like, I don't know, I forgot, like hits her in the nose

or like, which is like literally a scene in super bad, right? Like, you know, Jonah like leans in and hits Emma in the nose. Yeah, yeah. And it's ending with a comedic beat like that. And then I think, again, as I discovered more of the movie, it was like, no, the movie's about shame. How do we make it feel like this sort of uncomfortable shame? And what is the most shameful thing he can go through in that moment?

And it's like, oh, it's not letting him off with like an easy laugh or like something that is embarrassing, but like funny. It was like, well, let's really sink our teeth into something that can feel really painfully hurtful and like can really like, like that scene for that kid probably is going to like, he's going to be in his senior year and he's gonna be like, oh, I remember that night something that actually feels like I really You know for better or worse like a lasting painful memory But trying to go there instead of you know, again like playing for laughs

Technology does play such a big part and a very specific kind of technology it plays such a big part and a very specific kind of technology. It plays such a big part in the movie. Because it did occur to me that if this movie took play was about the same age of kids 10 years prior, this technology, I don't even know what to call it, these chat rooms, the way kids are talking to each other all the time, it wouldn't have existed.

And I'm wondering if you have some sort of notion of, has that done something special to those kids? Like in terms of like, did they come up in a different way than kids 15 years before did? Yeah, I'm sure it's fucked with their brain waves in some way, shape or form, but like, yeah, I mean, I guess when you were 13 to 17, Andy, like you didn't have any of like AIM or even Messenger or any of that stuff, right? No, there was, there were no computers.

No computers, yeah. There were no cell phones, you know? Yeah. I think the way that I, you know, from a, from like a, there's like the generational conversation and there's a personal conversation. I think from like the generational cultural conversation and approach, it was like, oh yeah, all of that stuff, the way that kids were interacting with each other online, I had never seen in a movie of this kind. And so it felt like, again, an opportunity, but like from a personal standpoint, it was like, yeah, when I was

13, like that's what I was doing. Like I would go outside and have like the type of like sandlot summers, you know, me and my friends biking around and like messing around and doing stupid stuff. But then I would come home and like be on AIM or like MySpace or Facebook. And like it felt like I was growing up with the internet as opposed to I think maybe... The way that I like think about it now is almost like back then you could, and maybe this makes me feel old, but like, I feel like you could log off the internet. Like I would go outside and I wouldn't have this gnawing feeling of like, and it wouldn't be in your pocket. Yeah. What it was like, I, I, I wouldn't feel like, Oh, like, is anyone liking my photo? Is anybody, um,

commenting on stuff? Or it's like back then I felt like you could just log off and you could go live your real life. And then you'd come home and like go on miniclip.com and play video games. And I feel like that that particular generation of adolescents hadn't really been captured in a way that I felt like was honest to my upbringing. And I think today it's different, right? Like today, you know, you're never not you're chronically online all the time, even when you don't want to be like, you have to literally just like delete your Instagram account to not be online. And so I think there was, you know, I don't know if

I can really articulate it in a way that's actually like intelligent. Yeah, it's a more of a sociologist kind of question. Yeah, because it's like, I, you know, but it did seem to be like the aspect of it that, because it's like, I, you know, but it did seem to be like the, the aspect of it that, and it, because it was fairly fresh, like you guys, like that was fairly new kids being able to have an ongoing faceless conversation with each other once they got home. Like that, it does kind of seem like they can't escape the circle of teen communication, which is

really fun and everything, but it can also just be brutal. And it's like there's this little window of brutality in your room that you can't get away from. But that's also my sort of jaundiced view of it. It's also a window of community and communication and contact. So I don't know my answer to that. I ask a lot of questions that I don't know the answers to, and I'm glad I don't have to answer them. Yeah, and then I have to answer them for you.

Then you have to answer them. Yeah, what the fuck is your movie? Yeah, what do I have to answer them. So yeah. And then I have to answer them for you. And then you have to answer them. Yeah. What the fuck? It's your movie. I don't know. I'm not from the movie. What do I have to say about the movie? I have no idea. I have no idea either. But I do think it is like, I don't know.

I talk about it with the kids in our movie a little bit, but like, because there's so much of curating your identity now online, like who you are online and who you're offline and where those two worlds play together. And I felt like, I felt like there was some version of that for the kids in our movie who gave to be people like, you know, me and a lot of my friends. But like, I don't think at that age back then with where the internet was, we were doing a lot of curating. There wasn't a ton of like presenting this version of ourselves online, how people wanted to be perceived or anything like that's why it's funny like my friends, my hometown friends and people I grew up with. But when the movie finally came out, they were like,

Sean, we're really, really proud of you. Congrats on achieving the dream. But we're so glad this movie is finally done and out of your life. So you can stop sending us Facebook screenshots of what we said online in 2008. Because it would just be like very unfiltered, uncurated, like your brain, the like intrusive thought in your brain directly online. And it's just there. It's like a digital footprint. And it's still there. It's still archived.

And so it was like that version of the internet, this sort of like very innocent, kind of, yeah, non-performative version of the internet. And I feel like, you know, the experience that teenagers are going through now is like they're 12, 13 on the internet and they're already thinking about like, what version of myself do I want to be and like perform? And I think that is a really crazy thing to have to live through day by day. Like negotiating yourself with yourself every single day and kind of thinking like my life in my day to day world is like not that interesting.

And then having to like go on the internet and be like, I'm not that interesting of a person. Yeah. Yeah, create a brand, you know exactly. I guess a 13 year old Yeah, yeah, and I mean like people say that as a joke right like what's your brand? But it's like that is How people look at their lives? Yeah Yeah, it's a little terrifying You you just mentioned, you know, like your friends being like, we're glad you can move on. Are you sort of like done with, okay, yeah, youth, enough,

enough with youth, you know? Is this kind of a world that you like to dwell in and that you have more stories to tell about, more coming of age kind of stories? That's a good question. I... Well, thank you. Thank you.

Yeah. I just thought it up on my own. Just butter me up and I'll move on. What about the end of answer? That's a good question, Andy. No, I mean, I think I've always been drawn to stories of youth and adolescence. But you know, I think it really just depends on the story. I think I'll always be drawn to stories about people at the cusp of something, right?

And I think that's what coming of age stories are. It's like who you are and who you want to be. And that gap between those two worlds is always something that I think I'm going to be drawn towards because it's like ripe for storytelling. Not to say I'm, you know, I certainly want to, there's some things I'm like developing where I'm like, oh, like the experience of being a 19 year old is still about youth, but it's very different than being 13. And so I don't think I'll ever be done with stories of youth,

but that's not to say I want to go do other stuff too. Do you want to do stuff that's like more, you know, like do you want to make a vampire movie? You know what I mean? Like, do you want to do like genre work Or do you like kinda wanna dwell in this sort of you know, observational movies about life? I would love to. I mean, I don't know that like,

it's like specifically vampire, but like, I grew up with, like, I was such an anime kid growing up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I love also like worlds and fantastical, crazy things like that. But, um, I think honestly, like this is kind of a cop out answer, but I think it is really just depends on what I'm excited about in the moment. You know, I don't think. You're also young and you know, I mean, you've got doors opening and let's see

what happened, you know, what's behind the doors. You're meeting me at a weird time, Andy, because up until a week ago, I never had facial hair. And you only know me with facial hair. So it's like... And the finasteride is working. And... Yeah.

Now you've been talking about this. I mean, you've been, this movie's been in your life a long time. And now you're talking about it with assholes like me over and over and over again. And I always wonder when that happens, because I mean, I've been, you know, I've been through, from an actor's point of view or, you know, a performer's point of view, press, doing press, talking about something. And I wonder if there's, like, in talking about the movie, have there been discoveries that you've,

you know, sort of postnatal discoveries that you've made about the movie from talking about it? You know, it's out there, it's finished. Yeah, I mean, you've also probably been on it from the other side of like being the, I mean, yeah, like in this case being the press, but also like doing Conan and having people come on and talk to you about their you know pieces of work. Yeah, yeah. I mean yeah you know I haven't had a ton of time to reflect if I'm being honest about the whole experience

but there's certainly like that's part of the interesting thing I think about making any piece of work and I've you know sort of felt it in smaller doses with like the short films and but it's how other people interpret the stories you know you're saying and trying to tell you know I think the thing that has been really beautiful about releasing this movie is like again again, like seeing people like you resonate with it, right? Like people who, you know, you're not an Asian American kid, you know, now maybe you are, who knows? I don't know. I'm not going to speak for you, but I'm not. I'm most definitely not. You're going to write your coming of age movie and it's going to star an Asian American kid. But you know, I think the thing that has been, you know, maybe illuminating is it's like,

I had kind of like my own second coming of age writing this movie and releasing it out into the world and even my name, right? Like, like I go by Sean Wong now, but like when I was the kid in the movie is not long It's Wayne and his spell W A and G just like my name and I think you know, I talked a lot about this with you know, a mutual friend of mine who also had this sort of like In talking about his movie when it was released into the world. It kind of forced himself to confront like how to You know be the person he wanted to be. And I think like when this movie came out, it's so much about identity.

And it was like Americanizing my last name, you know, for my entire life, I was Sean Wang and it was in making this movie and talking about it and, and that I realized like, I don't want, I want to honor like the correct pronunciation of my last name. Right. And I think, you know, that's, that's just like one thing in the journey of making this and talking about it. And like, it's a movie about identity.

So I think like by the end of it, I'm kind of like, okay, like, what have I learned about myself? Who is the person that was making this movie when he was 23 years old and who is the person now at 29 talking about the movie, who is the person at 28 shooting the movie and then next week I'll be 30 and it's like, okay, this entire chapter of my 20s is sort of like all again, all the warts and the messes and the friends I made, the friends I lost, the people I dated, like I look at the movie and I remember all these different chapters of who I was at any different time, none of which had facial hair.

And so now I'm entering, you know, 30 with this sort of chapter completely left behind me and I think it does sort of, you know, make me a little emotional and also looking forward to the future and also reflective of, you know, this the growth of a human over the course of seven years and kind of being like, okay, like what is my place in this industry? What is my place in this world? Kind of like what you were saying, like what other stories do I want to tell? What kind of filmmaker am I? I think, you know, I think that's the beautiful thing about endings too, you know, and I think the journey of this movie is kind of ending in, in, in some capacity. And it's just a good time to think about what my 30s to be like. Yeah, it is. It, you know, it does, it does parallel the movie

because yeah, there is the end of the movie is the end of the movie, but it's also the end of a chapter in this, in all these characters' lives. And there's a new one starting, you know? And another dumb white guy question. Why didn't they, why didn't, why didn't Americanized people when they were Americanizing your name, why didn't they just put an O in it? Dude, good question. Who do we, who do we... What the fuck, people? Who do we call? Okay, there is a... I don't even want to say the thought I have because it's so far out of my league of... I mean, what the fuck, people? Who do we call? Okay, there is a... I don't even wanna say the thought I have because it's so far out of my league of...

But like, I think in Cantonese, it's W-O-N-G. But like, if you're from Hong Kong and it's Wong, it's W-O-N-G. But then if you're like from China or Taiwan, it's W-A-N-G. But it's all the same character in Mandarin. I think. It's so weird. Don't quote me on that.

I'm not going to. Don't send this to any linguists or anything. Yeah, and people don't do that. Don't write me about it, because what the fuck do I know? No, no, write Andy, write Andy, but then don't forward it to me. Well, what are you doing next?

What do you got going on? I'm writing the next movie right now. That's why I'm in New York. It's, it's set in New York. Um, it's a story I'm really excited about. It's early, early seeds, but are you just there kind of soaking it up kind of, you know, kind of, yeah. I mean, I live in LA now. I was like, I can't write a New York movie in LA.

And I live in New York for like most of my young adult life I didn't move back to LA until I was ready to make the movie that we're talking about now Mm-hmm, and so school you didn't go you because you went to USC, correct? Yeah I transferred to USC as a junior and then okay and then after I graduated I moved to New York City for a job and thinking I was going to be here for one year, I ended up staying for six. Uh, yeah. So, um, yeah, just kind of, you know, soaking it up and trying to figure out what the seeds

of this new story are, but also just developing things and also like just trying to be a human in the world. You know, I think I've taken a lot of meetings in the last few weeks and it's just like, you know what, like talking about movies, making movies, that are the movies. I'm like, I just want to go like eat and skate. Yeah. Is there a lesson that you've learned over the, you know, over this experience that you kind of, like one sort of unifying sort of theme that's come out of this path that you've been on with

this movie? With this movie specifically? I don't know. Well, you got to wrap it up somehow. You know, the thing I've been thinking about a lot lately, I don't know if it's like a unifying lesson or theme or anything, but I just remember, I don't know. I can't remember if it was before Sundance or before the Oscars this year, because a short I had made got nominated while I was at Sundance with this

feature. And it was just kind of like, it was all good, obviously. Like it was, you know, some pretty spectacular, surreal things, but it was just so much like public facing new in my life that no one can really, like, I didn't do media training. I think even if you did, I think no one can really prepare you for just that type of insane limelight that, you know, you just never experienced in your life. That training could probably be wrong. You know, whatever the training, it probably would be like teaching you bad things that you shouldn't do.

Yeah, I would end up saying the wrong things, but it was just kind of like a pretty insane period in my life. And I just got like incredibly stressed at the same time, as, as much as it was like good and you know, like good for the movies and good for your career or whatever, it was just kind of like, I don't know how to navigate this. I've never done it before. And it was so insane.

I remember just talking to a friend. He was like, like, this is a big moment in your life. Just don't forget to like be a kid. You know, like in some ways, like this is the dream and like, it's stressful, but like when it gets too stressful, like go play video games, like go hang out with the people who are in your life, who loved you before any of this happened. Right. Like go skate, go play video games, go take a walk, like touch the earth.

Yeah. Touch the earth. And I think I've just trying to have been able. I've been latching onto that in the last few months. I've just like this whole world of like. Me, it's just like it's all great. And it's like you want to make stuff and like I have a lot of fun making stuff. But I also like don't forget to be a kid.

And don't forget where that like element of play came from. It's a very healthy instinct. Well, Sean, thank you so much for spending this time with me and everyone should go see DD or rent DD or whatever you have to do to see it. Steal it, you know, I mean come on. Yeah, download it on Limewire or Kazaa or whatever the... Whatever it is now. I'd be so honored. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, rip it or whatever it is. Yeah, rip it or whatever it is. But it really is a wonderful movie and congratulations on making such a well realized work at a really relatively young age. It's a very poised and mature piece of work for somebody that you say you're turning 30

next week? Next week, week from today. Happy birthday. Thank you, Andy. Yeah, yeah. Appreciate it. This is really, no, today. Happy birthday. Thank you, Andy. Yeah, yeah. Appreciate it. This is really cool. Thank you for all the thoughtful questions and having me on the show.

Oh, you're welcome. It was a pleasure to have you. And I'll be back next week with more of The Three Questions. So tune back in. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a Team Cocoa production. It is produced by Sean Doherty and engineered by Rich Garcia. in. from Maddie Ogden, research by Alyssa Grahl. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe to The Three Questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts. And do you have a favorite question

you always like to ask people? Let us know in the review section. Can't you tell my love's a-growing? Can't you feel it ain't a-showin'? Oh, you must be a-knowin'. I've got a big, big love. This has been a Team Coco production.